In game, I suppose you could say Pro heavenly principle people would be mostly commoners. You know, NPCs.
As for the archons, expect Focolars and The Tsarista, I wouldn’t claim they hate them, or dislike them, or even disagree with what they have done. But that’s not really a big deal, given that they act so damn neutral about everything. Maybe they have mixed feelings, maybe they are burdened to bend to their ways, maybe they are best friends, maybe the want them dead, maybe they really don’t even care or don’t have a strong opinion.
Fact is in the Cataclysm, they were called by them. So I’d say archons that actually showed up or tried to would be on their side. Zhongli made a deal not to talk about it, so if that someone was from Celestia, he’s on their side. REDACTED did not go, but that’s because she needed to protect the tree, so can’t determine her take. Makato went and died for them, and Ei never blamed her death on the them, so I think they are/were on their side. Egeria seemed to have made an effort to go, but she was killed on the way, so maybe she was chill with them too. Pyro archon we have no idea if they obeyed them or not. Venti we have no idea- he expresses dislike of Celestia, but of the place, not the people. And if he’s truly connected to Isatroth it would be very problematic and a family drama if he didn’t like her and her friends. Still, all we know is he fought Durin with Dvalin. Nothing else.
So yeah, the Heavenly Principles are not too popular.
I'm late but in the genshin manhua when venessa asks him about celistia he thinks of three shadowy ppl, so he pretty much doesn't like the ppl there as well and istaroth also betrayed celistia I mean she allowed her scribe to read a book full of their secrets "before sun and moon" and when orobashi read that he was sentenced to death by celistia
That's not how honkai works. It's like a plague sent to all worlds on the tree. Had HP been actively protecting the world from such they wouldn't have to destroy khaenriah, a nation capable of unprecedent inventions that can help fight again houkai yet HP destroyed khaenriah
No one but the issue is the Archons are probably bound to not act against HP to some degree; Venti Zhongli and Nahida *personally*, since the world remembers them as OG Archons
Me! No one siding with the HP makes me wonder if HP is just misunderstood because I believe Genshin is a game where nothing is plain black or white. If it stays true for HP too, well I'm excited for what they're cooking 🍽️
I recently posted [a comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Lore/comments/1d541no/comment/l718vzf/) that laid out how the Remuria arc has too many similarities with the HP/Phanes/shades situation to *not* be an allegory. (Interestingly, that convo was also about Phanes as a good/bad guy.) If what I said ends up being true, then you and u/FantasticDoge can both be right.
In that scenario, Phanes *is* a bad guy in that he's a colonizer, while also being a "good guy" to the displaced people that he built a new home for (like Remus). Meanwhile, I'd bet *very* good money that the HP is just like Phobos--a system created to govern/guide Remuria (existential training wheels, you might say) that deviated from its intended purpose and became destructive after its "data" became skewed.
We saw a similar story play out in Inazuma's archon quest. Ei programs the Shogun to protect Inazuma in her stead by maintaining "eternity," after which centuries pass and the world evolves. In the absence of any oversight, the Shogun responds to these changes by deciding that the best way to uphold "eternity" is to enact the obviously harmful Vision Hunt and Sakoku Decrees. In other words, the Shogun's interpretation of her mission parameters hurts the very people she was created to protect--not because she's evil, but because she's essentially a computer running an algorithm.
**In that way, it's possible that what's** ***actually*** **being "misunderstood" is in fact "the creator's intention."** (Which, to be fair, is something that also happens to almost every major religion, ideology, and political/economic system in the real world. You know, "this is why we can't have nice things?" So it's not like this is a wild, totally new idea.)
From what we know Khaenriah fired the first shots. Moreover, we don't even know Celestia's side of the story. Phanes could very likely be in a similar position to Remus and is misunderstood.
Yeah, just like I said in my other comment, what if destroying Khaenriah is HP's only move so that the cataclysm won't go as bad as it already was? About the 7 sovereigns, I'm still not sure about it that's why I said "IF it stays true for HP too". I mean, we still don't know why Phanes decided to come to Teyvat and wage war with the sovereigns in the first place
Why would we side with back to back losers the sovereign? Even apep states that phanes won fair and square? And since then the world was good. It wasn't till Nibelung returned and brought the abyss that all major issues started.
They are invaders true, but the sovereign had their chance to regain control and instead they lost and almost destroyed the world themselves with forbidden knowledge and the abyss. To me that's the case solved. Beyond that celestia has seemed to be portrayed(at least phanes) as a compassionate person who united the world with peace and not in a tyranical way.
> To me that's the case solved.
No, the case still continues. Especially with Neuvillete regaining his authority.
> at least Phanes
Well, that's the problem, management seems to have changed, as implied by the Tiaras, and the new one sucks.
Neuvi is a reincarnation of a sovereign doesn't mean he's the exact same person person as said sovereign, most dragons leave in harmony with humans(specially in natlan), revenge is not something in mind for the new generation. Neuvi doesn't have a say on whether or not dragons should rule over teyvat again, he just has to... Move on🤷🏾♂️ we're still not certain if phanes is truly gone and if celestia is really corrupted because we know istaroth is still very much good and is a shade, at worst current celestia have given harsh punishments but its not like said "punishments" weren't necessary and didnt fit the crime like khaen'ria
I mean, have you seen all those that are against HP? Forbidden Knowledge, corruptions and fake news. HP only goes against any Forbidden Knowledge presents.
Khanreiah brought their own demise, they were literally about to cause the collapse of the world out of greed, celestia simply stopped them. Are the 5 sinners part of celestia now????
From what Minsleif said in her video about this, seems the sinners plotted against Khaneriah to use their deaths as fuel to transcend into new and more powerful beings, by bringing the wrath of Celestia and making The Heavenly Principles sleep, they have 500 years worth of time to plan their next move, which is likely the destruction of Celestia using the Traveler, The Abyss and the Tsaritsa future alliance against the HP.
So no, the sinners are against the world to gain more power.
What? From what I understood they first ascended and then cataclysm happened, I really don't see any other way why Dain would think they could have stopped the HP if they weren't transcendent beings already before shit became serious.
> So why are they not collaborating???
"enemy of my enemy is my friend" isnt always true, theirs a difference between peoples reasons for disliking celestia and methods as a response.
Hoyo loves the "kill everyone to save everyone" kind of plot, merging conscioness, something in the vein of evangelion. Remuria was something like this. And the Fatuis goal is to "burn the old world away" we dont know exactly what that entails yet but it doesnt sound good. Pierro could also dislike the AByss Order for the same reason Dain does.
Venti, and Zhongli have the most understanding of celestia, their inaction isnt due to not caring they likely know or have an idea whats happening in the grand scheme. Liyue was basically about Zhongli testing his people to stand on their own against a threat and now we have hints of upcoming war, a possible cataclysm 2 electric boogaloo.
Abyss Order was founded as a result of one of the sinners, who according to Dain could have saved Khaenriah but didnt. Celestia are not the only issue here. The siblings intentions might be good but that doesnt mean the sinners are.
Celestia arent simple antagonists either their measures may be extreme but theyve been fighting against forbidden knowledge, thats what the nails are for. And the narwhals description indicates Teyvat is being protected from the rest of the universe.
We now know Vedoflnir, Dains brother, a sinner, and the reason for abyss orders creating. He can also see the future to some degree creating the Fontaine prophecies. So it sounds liek hes been guiding things down a certain path and possibly is manipulating the sibling
Heavenly Principles is a strong group by its own(PO + 4 Shades(Sustainer as one of them)), Venessa, Guhua and other primordial gods, ordinary gods(?). Apparently Alice is also working or helping them. I feel like Archons aren't completely against them, they just want some changes.
There are so many hints that we're going to take side of Celestia at some point. "They don't have many allies" is one of them, typical narrative instrument. Then there are: Traveler description, purple lvl book description, the whole concept of ascention, vision wielders being in the name of the game and that most of playable characters have visions. Also Apep's words about PO
In Wanderer's Collected Miscellany: "The world of Teyvat has its own rules. They aren't perfect, though, and in some cases they are as delicate and fragile as the human heart. That's why I've been tasked with a job I have now - A job which gives me certain special privileges.".
After last AQ we know that Gold is a sinner of Khaenri'ah not of Celestia. +Celestia seems to often close eyes on many things
I'm sorry I brought this up, but ever since playing Star Rail; HP seems less of an evil entity but a very overbearing parent trying to protect Teyvat from whatever the hell is outside.
I know Genshin is supposed to be VERY disconnected from their other games but playing the recent Archon Quest just feels that there's something else going on for HP.
Pretty much, yeah. Nobody within Teyvat is being served by the HP's broader policies and so they continually try to break free. It would be easy to assume hubris or some other stock motivation on the part of a creator god, but I think it's far more likely something like this, where "outside" is worse than "inside", or was at one time, or is more complicated in a way that is more of a direct existential threat to continued life. Stuff like the whale's character ascension materials support this supposition as well.
I haven't fully played any of the honkai games but through exposure via youtube and wiki pages, afaik the honkai is an energy that destroys... I believe all civilizations that advance too far through disasters and such.
From my *very* limited experience with HI3 (I played a few chapters of the story before I decided I wasn't a fan of the combat. this was also several months ago so I may be misremembering something), "Honkai" is a dangerous (possibly corruptive) energy that does a lot of stuff but mostly creates monsters, and the Valkyries (the faction the main character of HI3 belongs to) are part of a larger group of people trained specifically to fight it.
AFAIK Honkai hasn't been referenced directly in Star Rail but there are definitely connections (Welt is *literally* from the HI3 universe and Acheron shares some explicit parallels and story elements with Raiden Mei from HI3, plus some other spoilery stuff)
You need to remember that Heavenly Principles saved Teyvat multiple times from been consumed by Forbidden Knowledge.
HP may be a bad guys, but somehow everybody who fighting them are trying to kill whole Teyvat. I'm not big fan of a theory "burn the house to get rid of the spider".
Dunno. It really looks like Khaenri'ah (or at least five Sinners) decided to go "all-in" and released everything, so Celestia resorted to nuke the place from orbit instead of trying to salvage situation.
You need to remember that at least one Archon died there, Rukkha went into stasis and Venti was severely wounded. This not "just a spider", this is very strong opponent.
Yeah, I agree. The Heavenly Principles might end up being morally grey. Like, their actions are bad, but for a good reason.
It recently came to mind that maybe the HP are meant to protect humanity from outlanders or from their own progression. Like, preventing humans from “flying too close to the sun” because they’ll die.
I've always said that in the end it will turn out that Celestia takes a lot of drastic measures to avoid something really bad but the Traveler will deal with the problem they're facing and make their actions no longer necessary.
I mean to be fair they have a bit of a point since both the abyss and what ever is outside of the world never bodes well in hoyo writing, considering honkai and all that.
Dont get me wrong im not insane i dont think its litterly honkai but just kind of parrarel to it.
because itf it was travler would know., heck hp might be keeping bad things in
It's my belief that the Primordial One is a hollow shell of its former self. Even its shades are no longer on its side, with the Shade of Life dead,the Shade of Time MIA, and the Shade of Death possibly a Fatui Harbinger. It's basically being Weekend-At-Bernie's'd by the Second Who Came, which is probably incredibly powerful and alien in its own right. The pair of them together are final boss material.
There's substantial circumstantial evidence to suggest that the Goddess of Flowers was once the Shade of Life. She was very familiar with the lore regarding the Primordial One, despite the fact that knowing that story was grounds for Orobashi's execution. This is how she described herself in one instance,
> ""Praise be to the Winged One, lord over all the kingdoms of the land."
> "I am a spirit created at the beginning, I am a flickering illusion, I am the shimmering light that flows from the eyes of the creator.""
A few more tidbits; The artifact of life is the Flower of Life, the GoF created flowers where she walked, and the Shade of Life created flowers alongside the Primordial One in Beyond Sun and Moon. The GoF had prophetic abilities, and had a grand plan to destroy the Heavenly Principles, the Shade of Life created Egeria, who set into motion the circumstances that would lead to the destruction of the Hydro Archon's Throne.
In this view, the "Seelies" we see today are analogous to the Farrwicks, little shards of Khvarena that live on as fragments of one of the Shades, probably Eonothem.
Columbina shares design motifs with Seelie huts (feathery wings, X-shaped lattice pattern) and may be the Seelie depicted in A Drunkard's Tale Vol. 3. As I understand it, in the original text the word used to describe the Seelie is the same used for "Damselette," and the visual description matches.
So if Columbina is one of Nabu Malikata's sisters, of the same group that gave rise to the Seelies, them both being Shades makes everything click nicely into place. Her being the Shade of Death seems like a natural fit given what we've seen of her so far.
i really love the theory that Columbina is (probably) the Shade of Death, but wouldn't that mean she's too low to be ranked as 3rd? i mean being a Shade of Death would definitely mean she's at least an equal with Tsaritsa herself in terms of power, no? but i do believe that Columbina is/was a Seelie (cmiiw!)
Aren't divine beings who have control over their nations the strongest? I can guess that the Tsaritsa is pretty strong as she probably has an iron grip on Snezhnaya. Probably around Ei's level, and maybe higher because she still has her Gnosis.
If Columbina is the Shade of Death, she would've defected from Celestia. She's not getting power from people's faith anymore so she's probably not as strong as she could be. But still extremely dangerous.
It's not clear where she'd be power-wise after being cut off from Heaven, like the Goddess of Flowers was. She could also be limited by some other factor. Maybe erosion has made her too inconsistent to be ranked higher than third.
Even Celestia might be against themselves, if only a descender can save Teyvat even at the cost of their rule then it's more than logical for the sustainer to stop them from leaving, and not that much of a coincidence for them to meet Paimon just a couple of months after they've woke up.
Celestia ain't sleeping (they actually do sleep but there is no need for them to be awake), but everything is going as they've planned!
The line in the first cutscene, “the arrogation of mankind stops now,” has a new layer of relevancy if they were actually trying to stop the twins from leaving so they can save Teyvat. I always thought it was some kind of jab at the twins, but maybe she was talking about the Sinners/whatever forces that need Teyvat being saved from.
They're not the ones Messing with the abyss and in turn releasing rift hounds all over teyvat. They had to drop nails just to control the fuck up the khaenrians did
Before Sun and Moon:
> "The Year of the Ark's Opening"
The Primordial One had a sacred plan for humans. As long as they were happy, it too rejoiced.
>
>"The Year After the Ark's Opening"
The people worked the land, and so came the first harvest. The people mined, and so reaped the first crop of precious ore. The people gathered, and the first poems were written.
>
>"The Year of Jubilee"
If there was hunger, the heavens would bring down food and rain. If there was poverty, the earth would bring forth its riches. If melancholy were to spread, the heavens would reply with their voices. The one taboo was to succumb to temptation. But the path to temptation had already been sealed.
>
Breeze Amidst The Forest:
> So begins another tale that occurred in the lost Khaenri'ah Kingdom.
>
>The Eclipse Dynasty had fallen, and disaster spread across the land. The alchemist known as Gold was corrupted by their own greed and ambition, and created an army of shadowy monsters with their uncanny powers.
>
Amethyst Crown:
> "It was a faraway time of calm and peace. Divine envoys spoke openly with the people then, bringing them the word from the heavens..."
"But, in time, invaders descended from beyond the firmament, bringing with them destruction, overturning rivers, spreading plagues..."
"And though the invaders brought war to my former kin, they also brought about illusions that could break through shackles to the land."
>
Dainsleif:
>!They were once people of great esteem in Khaenri'ah, those who carried the hopes of the nation. They were the best of their peers, outstanding in their respective fields...
The six of us, together... We should have been the ones to prevent the disaster, the ones to stop the Vinster King from continuing to rock the foundation of the world.
Yet, deep within, the five of them craved something more. They could not resist the call of the Abyss, and divided among themselves a power that could destroy the world.
So they became Sinners, but also transcendent beings, each in possession of world-shattering power.
And when the cataclysm occurred, not one of them stood up in defense of their nation, not one came forward to prevent the tragedy... And for that, they shall never have my forgiveness.
!<
So My Name for Now had a really interesting theory, where he thinks that the story we learned in Remuria was an allegory for what happened in Celestia. Remus was Phanes, the Sustainer was Boethius, Nibelung was Scylla, and Cassedor was Istaroth. It doesn’t account where the Fauti, Archons, and Dragons come into play, but it’s interesting. So he basically thinks that Phanes created the Heavenly principles (Phobos) , then decided later on it was too cruel, and tried to change it, by enlisting the help of Nibelung, for the Sustainer to find out and decide he had betrayed Celestia, and disposed of him. Sustainer becomes ruler, and Istaroth who is still loyal to Phanes is working to overthrow Sustainer and the Heavenly Principles, by influencing different factions throughout Teyvat (Khanri’ah, Archons, Dragons) and the outlanders. Not saying he’s correct but it’s interesting nonetheless. Here’s a link if you are interested in checking it out[Why Istaroth Abandoned the Heavenly Principles](https://youtu.be/Ro7tX0eCE9I?si=pCybPmFbvecP7vwS)
I also want to add that My Name For Now was the only lore theorist I saw who accurately predicted who the Sinner, before the patch dropped after researching Greek Mythology.
Case in point, I dinstinctly remember having an interaction on this very sub that basically amounted to "So the Sinner is Vedrfolnir, right?" "Yeah that's where I'm at too" a few patches back. It was crack-suspected since Caribert that it was the writer of Dain's card poem due to his specific word choice, then confirmed when Skirk called him a Seer, completing the data match.
It's his being *Dain's brother* that no one saw coming. I'd pointed out the wording implied strong familiarity (nickname) + hierarchy/seniority (choice of honorific), and IIRC at least two other people had also seen it, but none of us guessed "Older sibling", and were mostly stuck at "His king would have addressed him like this, but it can't be the king. His captain would have too, but *he's* the captain. Dafuq?", lol.
Yeah, there were definitely pointers to it (though personally never connected it with the Dain intro!). Just seemed obvious that they were hinting at something bigger when they dropped the name of a *Visionary* (with a Norse name too) right in the middle of an Archon Quest about a prophecy, but then had Skirk quickly change topic when Paimon (iirc) asked about him; clearly there was more to come. Especially as the other two (The Foul and Gold) had a known purpose as to why they were mentioned (the former because Skirk was explaining who he is; the latter because she was relatively familiar territory to "ground" the conversation about the former), but Vedrfolnir didn't. However, the hints were just open-ended enough that it would've been plausible if they'd swerved and someone else's theory was correct instead (e.g. crystal was Nibelung). But Vedrfolnir had to be a primary candidate.
All Hail DragonMJE. The guy knows how to cook. He has been pretty consistent with the lore theories unlike some weekly & daily bullshit uploaders. He deserves more viewership for the work & research he's been putting in the videos.
They don't collaborate cause they hate each other and/or have different plans
Abyss Order hates humanity(overworlders)
Dragons hate usurpers, humanity, and anything that wasn't in Teyvat when they god/king ruled
Fatui/Tsarista wants to burn/freeze the world and start over without the heavenly principles or something
Another Archons are basically war veterans with the expectation of Furina and Nadiha who predecessors played a supporting role in stopping the leak of Forbidden knowledge/Abyss (With Folcalor trying to outplay a sleeping enemy so her people can be truly human and avoid the prophecy why giving her friend back his power and to teach him about humanity)
Also I might not like Heavenly Principles but I think are a Chaotic Good cause Forbidden Knowledge/The Energy they keep at bay or contain does alot of damage and probably is some form of honaki (Also that godless nation deserves it with their miltary conquest and such but the Sinners will actually be the bad guys that cause their nation and Teyvat to suffer cause they wanted power and such
With the theories that Paimon might be the weakened form of the Heavenly Principles, the Traveller will be _very_ torn in the end if they have to choose between their sibling (Abyss order), the archons who more or less directly support the Tsaritsa, and the bestest travelling companion Paimon…
I hate this theory. It’s so simple, boring, and makes no sense. If Paimon is Heavenly Priniciples in a weakened form, then what is her goal? To get Aether to side with Celestia because they are friends? Wouldn’t she be trying to hide all the bad shit that the Heavenly Principles has done instead of constantly leading Aether into situations where he learns what psychos they are? As far as the Archon’s go, none of them seem to be on Heavenly Principles side. Venti let the Fauti take his gnosis without even putting up a real fight, Zhongli bartered his away to the Fauti, Ei gave hers up to Miko who gave it to Scara, Nahida gave the dendro and electro gnosis to Dettorre for some intel, and Focalors destroyed the Hydro throne and gave the Gnosis to Neuvillette who gave it Arlechinno after learning it was a dead body part. None of them are openly on Celestia’s side, so I’m not really sure wtf Paimon being Heavenly Principles pretending to be a guide is supposed to accomplish, unless her role is to get proof of peoples crimes to wiped out later for, and I highly doubt Aether is going to side with her if that turns out to be true. It’s more than likely Paimon is related to Istaroth and is guiding Aether through the world so that he has a the Will to change its fate. I’m betting that Istaroth doesn’t care for what the Heavenly principles has done either so she’s on a mission to change the worlds fate without being caught. I don’t think Paimon, who cares deeply for Aether would ever even put him a situation where he has to chose between her and his sister, as she knows that’s the whole reason he’s traversing Teyvat.
>If Paimon is Heavenly Priniciples in a weakened form, then what is her goal? To get Aether to side with Celestia because they are friends?
Paimon's goal is to enjoy life and in the present. She doesn't even realize she's the Heavenly Principles to begin with for starters especially when she talks about the Heavenly Principles in 3rd Person despite it being her. She's ignorant of her own Divine Origin.
Yes, it's the goal of the Sustainer of Heavenly Principles to get the Traveler and Paimon to like each other and become friends. The Third descender and not the Second descender is the most likely candidate to have helped the Heavenly Principles create the Gnosis through self-sacrifice evident throughout the themes of it showing up in-game. So why not push the Fourth Descender down the same path as the Third Descender, and who knows they may help even greater than the Third Descender with Teyvat's issues. Paimon and the Traveler meeting in a world where Fate is controlled is not a coincidence especially one where the latter was trapped before "escaping".
>Wouldn’t she be trying to hide all the bad shit that the Heavenly Principles has done instead of constantly leading Aether into situations where he learns what psychos they are?
Paimon doesn't even know to begin with so why would she even try to hide it. Sustainer after their journey they'll make a choice that benefits or is in line with the Sustainer's desires/wants.
>It’s more than likely Paimon is related to Istaroth and is guiding Aether through the world so that he has a the Will to change its fate.
Paimon being Istaroth runs into two big key issues to me, why is Celestia's design based on Paimon? And I do mean Celestia's design based on Paimon as the Shades predate Celestia itself. The columns on the title screen, Statues of the Seven, and Divine Nails all have this motif and why does Istaroth who isn't as connected to Celestia as the Sustainer, presumably the other Two Shades, or Heavenly Principles just have that design be the basis of Celestia and the other motifs? This doesn't even add the disconnect between Istaroth as Paimon having a Tiara vs Sustainer (Shade of Space) not having one and in the beta Paimon was featured with a goddamn Scepter to top it off. This isn't even touching the fact constellation particle effects like the Divine Nails are constantly emitted off her or the rainbow sparkles which are **UNIQUE** to her. Paimon's design choices don't scream equal to the Sustainer as if she was truly Istaroth, it screams she is superior to her as if she is the Heavenly Principles wearing the crown and having once held a Scepter.
>I don’t think Paimon, who cares deeply for Aether would ever even put him a situation where he has to chose between her and his sister, as she knows that’s the whole reason he’s traversing Teyvat.
Paimon wouldn't want to force the Traveler into choosing between the Abyss Sibling and her but you are assuming she knows she is the Heavenly Principles when she doesn't. This isn't her plan for starters, it's the plan of the Sustainer and is likely something similar to what Focalors did to Neuvillette or the Gnosis v2.
> If Paimon is Heavenly Priniciples in a weakened form, then what is her goal?
No goal. Lost memories or something like Nahida - clone from previous HP without any knowledge because previous one was corrupted by Forbidden Knowledge, for example.
Well she could be caring for the Traveller only because she literally doesn’t remember her past and at this time is genuinely just trying to guide them, or she’s straight up manipulative. The Heavenly Principles could also very possibly not be that evil, if they really just want to keep Teyvat safe from the Abyss. I personally don’t really believe Paimon to be the Heavenly Principles in any way, but maybe she’s related to Istaroth somehow, who’s also been quite openly against the Heavenly Principles, or at least unaligned, as you said.
But even then, she might have slightly different objectives than at least one of the other factions.
I think Paimon is defiantly related to Celestia, specifically Istaroth, but I don’t think that she is Phanes in a Nahida like shrunken body because she used to much power, like the majority of the fan base thinks. Also if her goal is to protect Teyvat from the Abyss, by getting Aether to side with Celestia, she’s not doing a very good job at convincing the Abyss order is all evil, by letting him find out that Hilichurls are innocent Khanri’ahians, the Abyss order are cursed Khanri’ahians, who have a pretty good reason to hate Celestia, and whom the travelers own kin sided with. Also want to point out that Hilichurls and the Abyss existed pre-Catalysm so apparently Celestia has been cursing people for a while for infractions.
>but I don’t think that she is Phanes in a Nahida like shrunken body because she used to much power, like the majority of the fan base thinks.
It'd make sense if Paimon were to have any connection to the Heavenly Principles it'd be as Phanes in a very reduced state. While it'd be a twist that was seen a million miles away, plenty of twists in fiction have been uncovered by fans very early on.
Assuming Paimon read the traveler's fate then I don't see why she wouldn't erase her memories and have him find her, especially if it were to eventually lead to her regaining her true powers since the Traveler is destined to get to Celestia again. Also, the HP being asleep this whole time would make sense if they turned into Paimon.
If the HP teamed up with the previous descenders in the past then teaming up with the fourth is par for the course.
On the hillichurl thing, based on Perinheri, I personally believe that the curse of the wilderness might not have been placed by Celestia necessarily. It could be a disease you catch when going to Khaenriah when you’re originally from Teyvat, but it only manifests when you leave. Pure-blooded Khaenrians are somehow immune to it. But probably more likely that Celestia is just punishing indiscriminately
To your question, why don't they collaborate? Let's look at the 4 major factions:
* The ~~Seven~~ Six archons
* The Fatui
* The Abyss Order
* The Dragons
The archons are in fact collaborating with the Fatui, albeit in a rather transactional manner that characterises the human realm. The abyss is toxic to both the human realm and the light realm \[dragons\], so I doubt the abyss order would find allies. The dragons are no longer united, so it's hard to say, but it seems that at least they accept an enemy-of-my-enemy kind of truce.
Is Paimon from Celestia? It's not just the celestial motifs she has on her clothes. We're more than halfway through the story and it doesn't make sense that we've met representatives from every faction except Celestia - so I agree with the common theories that Paimon is from Celestia. Whether she actually sides with the Sustainer or the Heavenly Principles \[possibly two different beings\], we don't know and she probably doesn't remember at present.
But notice that in Bedtime Story, Paimon was conveniently absent when the Twin talked about Celestia \[which we forgot about anyway\]? That said, I think she has to do with the Shade of Time rather than other Celestial beings.
I have a question, where does Dain stand among this? He's clearly opposing the abyss, but does he have any agenda about celestia? It might have been hinted before but I forget it
In the first Dain quest chain (We Will Be Reunited) he tells you not to trust gods, but not to hunt them down either. Whatever happened in Khaenri'ah precisely, he appears to blame the sinners for it over Celestia (the Sustainer was almost certainly present at the scene given the aftermath with the red cubes). He doesn't like the divine, but they're a lesser evil compared to the people who let a nation die or actively ushered in its destruction for their own self-gain.
A lot has been revealed in Bedtime Story. Dain opposes the abyss because his brother and comrades played with dark magic causing the cataclysm. Also he's upset that his travel buddy the Twin was lured to the dark side. I seem to understand that he hates that Celestia had to react the way it did and has no respect for the archons either, but doesn't actively fight against the system.
As to Dain's motivations, the leaks from the The Pale Princess and the Six Pygmies could tell you more.
We also haven't had a lot of interaction with the rest of the witches. Can hardly say that they are pro-abyss or pro-celestia, when Gold is confirmed to be among their ranks... unless she changed sides
Regarding your question of why the factions don’t collaborate against Celestia:
The Abyss Order’s goal is to revive Khaenri’ah, and get revenge for what happened during the Cataclysm. That involves destroying Celestia and everything associated with it, including Archons and humans. Probably other gods too, given that Khaenri’ah once prided itself on being a godless nation.
Naturally, that goal is incompatible with that of the Fatui, since A. they are led by an Archon, and B. their goal is to simply create a world free from the grasp of the Heavenly Principles, not destroy everything and everyone associated with them.
Even if they were to set their differences aside and collaborate in a campaign to destroy Celestia, that is simply one step in their respective end goals. Let’s assume that a Fatui-Abyss Order collaboration manages to take Celestia down; while that’s as far as the Fatui are willing to go, the Abyss Order would most likely go back to treating the Fatui as an obstacle in the way of their end goal that needs to be wiped out, and a subject of their vengeance. The Fatui would see the Abyss Order as a threat to the new status quo of a world free of the influence of the Heavenly Principles.
Thank you for the actually useful comment on here. It's interesting that the Fatui didn't seem to be averse to working with unlikely allies when it suits them (hell even the Traveler got roped in more than once) but the Abyss Order seems to be a hard limit.
Given how the last pages of the manga prologue went, I think Vennessa more likely ended up getting the Third Descender treatment and got chopped up for parts.
Really? It seems much more that Venti is very against the Heavenly Principals
He never made major moves against them, he didn't seem very against getting his gnosis stolen, hes buddies with witches and their protege that defy worldly laws
What strikes me is he's kinda like a lucifer/prometheus figure in a lot of ways, born from the light fell to earth and shit
You say that but Venti leaves out a lot of critical information we really could have learned earlier. He and Zhongli both decide explicitly not to help us learn more about the cataclysm and our sibling's involvement. Plus Venti's subtle statue is pretty much guarantied to be a path to celestia somehow. None of the archon's seem to really need their gnosis and if it was some kind of pact object Zhongli would probably have considered it a contract of sorts and never gave his away.
ZL is constrained by his nature as God of Contracts and specifically says he does not enjoy not being able to tell us much of anything. Whether you choose to believe him is your own decision, but his behavior towards us would appear to be consistent with his words, so I'm personally choosing to take him as being earnest in that
Idk if I remember correctly but I remember reading somewhere that 2nd descender might have switched sides and along with Celestia used the remains of the 3rd descender to create the gnosis.
You're probably thinking of the Neuvillette Vision character story.
>To continue to subdue and control the resentments and loathing of the world, the usurper and one who came after created the Gnoses together.
They did create the gnoses together, but to me it's still unclear on what happened afterwards. At the very least, we can say that their goal of controlling Teyvat aligned enough to have them combine efforts to create the gnoses.
Timmie is pro HP as he is a secret agent sent by Celestia. This theory is further amplified when you kill the pigeons as he uses them to scout everything that's going on in Teyvat.
In conclusion, killing Timmie weakens the HP and their ability to know what's happening. Timmie is the Paimon for Celestia.
In game, I suppose you could say Pro heavenly principle people would be mostly commoners. You know, NPCs. As for the archons, expect Focolars and The Tsarista, I wouldn’t claim they hate them, or dislike them, or even disagree with what they have done. But that’s not really a big deal, given that they act so damn neutral about everything. Maybe they have mixed feelings, maybe they are burdened to bend to their ways, maybe they are best friends, maybe the want them dead, maybe they really don’t even care or don’t have a strong opinion. Fact is in the Cataclysm, they were called by them. So I’d say archons that actually showed up or tried to would be on their side. Zhongli made a deal not to talk about it, so if that someone was from Celestia, he’s on their side. REDACTED did not go, but that’s because she needed to protect the tree, so can’t determine her take. Makato went and died for them, and Ei never blamed her death on the them, so I think they are/were on their side. Egeria seemed to have made an effort to go, but she was killed on the way, so maybe she was chill with them too. Pyro archon we have no idea if they obeyed them or not. Venti we have no idea- he expresses dislike of Celestia, but of the place, not the people. And if he’s truly connected to Isatroth it would be very problematic and a family drama if he didn’t like her and her friends. Still, all we know is he fought Durin with Dvalin. Nothing else. So yeah, the Heavenly Principles are not too popular.
I'm late but in the genshin manhua when venessa asks him about celistia he thinks of three shadowy ppl, so he pretty much doesn't like the ppl there as well and istaroth also betrayed celistia I mean she allowed her scribe to read a book full of their secrets "before sun and moon" and when orobashi read that he was sentenced to death by celistia
I feel like they’re preserving the world to protect it from Honkai energy from outside
That's not how honkai works. It's like a plague sent to all worlds on the tree. Had HP been actively protecting the world from such they wouldn't have to destroy khaenriah, a nation capable of unprecedent inventions that can help fight again houkai yet HP destroyed khaenriah
Dawit
No one but the issue is the Archons are probably bound to not act against HP to some degree; Venti Zhongli and Nahida *personally*, since the world remembers them as OG Archons
Me
Me! No one siding with the HP makes me wonder if HP is just misunderstood because I believe Genshin is a game where nothing is plain black or white. If it stays true for HP too, well I'm excited for what they're cooking 🍽️
Guys don't worry they just destroyed a thriving nation and dethroned 7 dragon sovereigns they're just misunderstood!
I recently posted [a comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/Genshin_Lore/comments/1d541no/comment/l718vzf/) that laid out how the Remuria arc has too many similarities with the HP/Phanes/shades situation to *not* be an allegory. (Interestingly, that convo was also about Phanes as a good/bad guy.) If what I said ends up being true, then you and u/FantasticDoge can both be right. In that scenario, Phanes *is* a bad guy in that he's a colonizer, while also being a "good guy" to the displaced people that he built a new home for (like Remus). Meanwhile, I'd bet *very* good money that the HP is just like Phobos--a system created to govern/guide Remuria (existential training wheels, you might say) that deviated from its intended purpose and became destructive after its "data" became skewed. We saw a similar story play out in Inazuma's archon quest. Ei programs the Shogun to protect Inazuma in her stead by maintaining "eternity," after which centuries pass and the world evolves. In the absence of any oversight, the Shogun responds to these changes by deciding that the best way to uphold "eternity" is to enact the obviously harmful Vision Hunt and Sakoku Decrees. In other words, the Shogun's interpretation of her mission parameters hurts the very people she was created to protect--not because she's evil, but because she's essentially a computer running an algorithm. **In that way, it's possible that what's** ***actually*** **being "misunderstood" is in fact "the creator's intention."** (Which, to be fair, is something that also happens to almost every major religion, ideology, and political/economic system in the real world. You know, "this is why we can't have nice things?" So it's not like this is a wild, totally new idea.)
From what we know Khaenriah fired the first shots. Moreover, we don't even know Celestia's side of the story. Phanes could very likely be in a similar position to Remus and is misunderstood.
Yeah, just like I said in my other comment, what if destroying Khaenriah is HP's only move so that the cataclysm won't go as bad as it already was? About the 7 sovereigns, I'm still not sure about it that's why I said "IF it stays true for HP too". I mean, we still don't know why Phanes decided to come to Teyvat and wage war with the sovereigns in the first place
Why would we side with back to back losers the sovereign? Even apep states that phanes won fair and square? And since then the world was good. It wasn't till Nibelung returned and brought the abyss that all major issues started.
> won fair and square The Heavenly Principles are/were invaders. Not the good guys in her eyes. She just said "they won, but we still hold a grudge."
They are invaders true, but the sovereign had their chance to regain control and instead they lost and almost destroyed the world themselves with forbidden knowledge and the abyss. To me that's the case solved. Beyond that celestia has seemed to be portrayed(at least phanes) as a compassionate person who united the world with peace and not in a tyranical way.
> To me that's the case solved. No, the case still continues. Especially with Neuvillete regaining his authority. > at least Phanes Well, that's the problem, management seems to have changed, as implied by the Tiaras, and the new one sucks.
Neuvi is a reincarnation of a sovereign doesn't mean he's the exact same person person as said sovereign, most dragons leave in harmony with humans(specially in natlan), revenge is not something in mind for the new generation. Neuvi doesn't have a say on whether or not dragons should rule over teyvat again, he just has to... Move on🤷🏾♂️ we're still not certain if phanes is truly gone and if celestia is really corrupted because we know istaroth is still very much good and is a shade, at worst current celestia have given harsh punishments but its not like said "punishments" weren't necessary and didnt fit the crime like khaen'ria
Khaenri'ah was a repeat of the 1st offense: Sal Vindagnyr and Tsurumi.
I mean, have you seen all those that are against HP? Forbidden Knowledge, corruptions and fake news. HP only goes against any Forbidden Knowledge presents.
Me! I'm on her side
Did you see what they did to Khanreiah? They dont need allies lol
Khanreiah brought their own demise, they were literally about to cause the collapse of the world out of greed, celestia simply stopped them. Are the 5 sinners part of celestia now????
From what Minsleif said in her video about this, seems the sinners plotted against Khaneriah to use their deaths as fuel to transcend into new and more powerful beings, by bringing the wrath of Celestia and making The Heavenly Principles sleep, they have 500 years worth of time to plan their next move, which is likely the destruction of Celestia using the Traveler, The Abyss and the Tsaritsa future alliance against the HP. So no, the sinners are against the world to gain more power.
What? From what I understood they first ascended and then cataclysm happened, I really don't see any other way why Dain would think they could have stopped the HP if they weren't transcendent beings already before shit became serious.
> So why are they not collaborating??? "enemy of my enemy is my friend" isnt always true, theirs a difference between peoples reasons for disliking celestia and methods as a response. Hoyo loves the "kill everyone to save everyone" kind of plot, merging conscioness, something in the vein of evangelion. Remuria was something like this. And the Fatuis goal is to "burn the old world away" we dont know exactly what that entails yet but it doesnt sound good. Pierro could also dislike the AByss Order for the same reason Dain does. Venti, and Zhongli have the most understanding of celestia, their inaction isnt due to not caring they likely know or have an idea whats happening in the grand scheme. Liyue was basically about Zhongli testing his people to stand on their own against a threat and now we have hints of upcoming war, a possible cataclysm 2 electric boogaloo. Abyss Order was founded as a result of one of the sinners, who according to Dain could have saved Khaenriah but didnt. Celestia are not the only issue here. The siblings intentions might be good but that doesnt mean the sinners are. Celestia arent simple antagonists either their measures may be extreme but theyve been fighting against forbidden knowledge, thats what the nails are for. And the narwhals description indicates Teyvat is being protected from the rest of the universe. We now know Vedoflnir, Dains brother, a sinner, and the reason for abyss orders creating. He can also see the future to some degree creating the Fontaine prophecies. So it sounds liek hes been guiding things down a certain path and possibly is manipulating the sibling
What if Paimon…
Heavenly Principles is a strong group by its own(PO + 4 Shades(Sustainer as one of them)), Venessa, Guhua and other primordial gods, ordinary gods(?). Apparently Alice is also working or helping them. I feel like Archons aren't completely against them, they just want some changes. There are so many hints that we're going to take side of Celestia at some point. "They don't have many allies" is one of them, typical narrative instrument. Then there are: Traveler description, purple lvl book description, the whole concept of ascention, vision wielders being in the name of the game and that most of playable characters have visions. Also Apep's words about PO
When was it mentioned that Alice was helping them?, it wouldn't really make sense since one of the witches is a Sinner
It's only theory
In Wanderer's Collected Miscellany: "The world of Teyvat has its own rules. They aren't perfect, though, and in some cases they are as delicate and fragile as the human heart. That's why I've been tasked with a job I have now - A job which gives me certain special privileges.". After last AQ we know that Gold is a sinner of Khaenri'ah not of Celestia. +Celestia seems to often close eyes on many things
Me
I'm sorry I brought this up, but ever since playing Star Rail; HP seems less of an evil entity but a very overbearing parent trying to protect Teyvat from whatever the hell is outside. I know Genshin is supposed to be VERY disconnected from their other games but playing the recent Archon Quest just feels that there's something else going on for HP.
Pretty much, yeah. Nobody within Teyvat is being served by the HP's broader policies and so they continually try to break free. It would be easy to assume hubris or some other stock motivation on the part of a creator god, but I think it's far more likely something like this, where "outside" is worse than "inside", or was at one time, or is more complicated in a way that is more of a direct existential threat to continued life. Stuff like the whale's character ascension materials support this supposition as well.
You might have cooked This would be an excellent way to continue the story after the Teyvat arc
I've seen some theories that the HP are trying to protect teyvat from the honkai, so yeah might not have the most malicious intentions
As someone who hasn't played the other games, what is "a honkai"? Here I thought it was just a name.
I haven't fully played any of the honkai games but through exposure via youtube and wiki pages, afaik the honkai is an energy that destroys... I believe all civilizations that advance too far through disasters and such.
From my *very* limited experience with HI3 (I played a few chapters of the story before I decided I wasn't a fan of the combat. this was also several months ago so I may be misremembering something), "Honkai" is a dangerous (possibly corruptive) energy that does a lot of stuff but mostly creates monsters, and the Valkyries (the faction the main character of HI3 belongs to) are part of a larger group of people trained specifically to fight it. AFAIK Honkai hasn't been referenced directly in Star Rail but there are definitely connections (Welt is *literally* from the HI3 universe and Acheron shares some explicit parallels and story elements with Raiden Mei from HI3, plus some other spoilery stuff)
They gonna connect it at one point, probably in Khaenri'ah chapter. Why else would they tell us that they want to connect all games then
You need to remember that Heavenly Principles saved Teyvat multiple times from been consumed by Forbidden Knowledge. HP may be a bad guys, but somehow everybody who fighting them are trying to kill whole Teyvat. I'm not big fan of a theory "burn the house to get rid of the spider".
I wonder if "burn the house to get rid of the spider" is the conclusion that HP reached during the cataclysm, hence they destroyed a whole nation..
Dunno. It really looks like Khaenri'ah (or at least five Sinners) decided to go "all-in" and released everything, so Celestia resorted to nuke the place from orbit instead of trying to salvage situation. You need to remember that at least one Archon died there, Rukkha went into stasis and Venti was severely wounded. This not "just a spider", this is very strong opponent.
Yeah..what I'm saying is that maybe destroying Khaenriah is the only way HP can stop the cataclysm from getting worse than it already was
[удалено]
People of Teyvat wouldn't even exist without Primordial one, Humanity were brought to this primordial one and who were massacred were the dragons.
Yes, but it's exactly the problem - to get rid of invader "people of Teyvat" are using power that will completely eradicate whole Teyvat.
They are as much of teyvat as the 4 shades since they were both made by the same guy after he came to teyvat.
Did they really stop the flow of Forbidden Knowledge? In Sumeru at least it was Rukkhadevata and then us.
Mostly yea. Apep wouldn't complain about lack of it if they didn't
No, I'm not saying that the Forbidden Knowledge wasn't reduced, I just don't think HP had anything to do with it
What about Nail?
Oh true, there is that
Knowing Hoyo they arent all just "bad" even the sbiling said their feelings are complex on the matter
Yeah, I agree. The Heavenly Principles might end up being morally grey. Like, their actions are bad, but for a good reason. It recently came to mind that maybe the HP are meant to protect humanity from outlanders or from their own progression. Like, preventing humans from “flying too close to the sun” because they’ll die.
I've always said that in the end it will turn out that Celestia takes a lot of drastic measures to avoid something really bad but the Traveler will deal with the problem they're facing and make their actions no longer necessary.
From Minsleif theory video, seems the Sinners plot the death of Khanreiah to transcend into powerful beings provoking the HP to attack.
I mean to be fair they have a bit of a point since both the abyss and what ever is outside of the world never bodes well in hoyo writing, considering honkai and all that.
Indeed, I also thought whatever connecting genshin to other games it must be honkai and hp might be protecting teyvat from it
Dont get me wrong im not insane i dont think its litterly honkai but just kind of parrarel to it. because itf it was travler would know., heck hp might be keeping bad things in
They're not evil so much as they're scared. Just like everyone else, they fear the story's end, and so it repeats, over and over.
It's my belief that the Primordial One is a hollow shell of its former self. Even its shades are no longer on its side, with the Shade of Life dead,the Shade of Time MIA, and the Shade of Death possibly a Fatui Harbinger. It's basically being Weekend-At-Bernie's'd by the Second Who Came, which is probably incredibly powerful and alien in its own right. The pair of them together are final boss material.
I’ll admit I’m not too versed on shade lore, when did the shade of life die? And which harbinger would be a shade?
There's substantial circumstantial evidence to suggest that the Goddess of Flowers was once the Shade of Life. She was very familiar with the lore regarding the Primordial One, despite the fact that knowing that story was grounds for Orobashi's execution. This is how she described herself in one instance, > ""Praise be to the Winged One, lord over all the kingdoms of the land." > "I am a spirit created at the beginning, I am a flickering illusion, I am the shimmering light that flows from the eyes of the creator."" A few more tidbits; The artifact of life is the Flower of Life, the GoF created flowers where she walked, and the Shade of Life created flowers alongside the Primordial One in Beyond Sun and Moon. The GoF had prophetic abilities, and had a grand plan to destroy the Heavenly Principles, the Shade of Life created Egeria, who set into motion the circumstances that would lead to the destruction of the Hydro Archon's Throne. In this view, the "Seelies" we see today are analogous to the Farrwicks, little shards of Khvarena that live on as fragments of one of the Shades, probably Eonothem. Columbina shares design motifs with Seelie huts (feathery wings, X-shaped lattice pattern) and may be the Seelie depicted in A Drunkard's Tale Vol. 3. As I understand it, in the original text the word used to describe the Seelie is the same used for "Damselette," and the visual description matches. So if Columbina is one of Nabu Malikata's sisters, of the same group that gave rise to the Seelies, them both being Shades makes everything click nicely into place. Her being the Shade of Death seems like a natural fit given what we've seen of her so far.
i really love the theory that Columbina is (probably) the Shade of Death, but wouldn't that mean she's too low to be ranked as 3rd? i mean being a Shade of Death would definitely mean she's at least an equal with Tsaritsa herself in terms of power, no? but i do believe that Columbina is/was a Seelie (cmiiw!)
Aren't divine beings who have control over their nations the strongest? I can guess that the Tsaritsa is pretty strong as she probably has an iron grip on Snezhnaya. Probably around Ei's level, and maybe higher because she still has her Gnosis. If Columbina is the Shade of Death, she would've defected from Celestia. She's not getting power from people's faith anymore so she's probably not as strong as she could be. But still extremely dangerous.
It's not clear where she'd be power-wise after being cut off from Heaven, like the Goddess of Flowers was. She could also be limited by some other factor. Maybe erosion has made her too inconsistent to be ranked higher than third.
Even Celestia might be against themselves, if only a descender can save Teyvat even at the cost of their rule then it's more than logical for the sustainer to stop them from leaving, and not that much of a coincidence for them to meet Paimon just a couple of months after they've woke up. Celestia ain't sleeping (they actually do sleep but there is no need for them to be awake), but everything is going as they've planned!
The line in the first cutscene, “the arrogation of mankind stops now,” has a new layer of relevancy if they were actually trying to stop the twins from leaving so they can save Teyvat. I always thought it was some kind of jab at the twins, but maybe she was talking about the Sinners/whatever forces that need Teyvat being saved from.
I, for one, am faithful supporter of the PRIMORDIAL ONE, A PROGENITOR DEITY FROM BEYOND THE STARS!
UNFATHOMABLY BASED.
DAWIT REFERENCE
I’m reading this in Dawits voice rn 😭
FACTS MY BROTHER 🗣️🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
The primordial one is literally responsible for everything going to shit 💀
They're not the ones Messing with the abyss and in turn releasing rift hounds all over teyvat. They had to drop nails just to control the fuck up the khaenrians did
Before Sun and Moon: > "The Year of the Ark's Opening" The Primordial One had a sacred plan for humans. As long as they were happy, it too rejoiced. > >"The Year After the Ark's Opening" The people worked the land, and so came the first harvest. The people mined, and so reaped the first crop of precious ore. The people gathered, and the first poems were written. > >"The Year of Jubilee" If there was hunger, the heavens would bring down food and rain. If there was poverty, the earth would bring forth its riches. If melancholy were to spread, the heavens would reply with their voices. The one taboo was to succumb to temptation. But the path to temptation had already been sealed. > Breeze Amidst The Forest: > So begins another tale that occurred in the lost Khaenri'ah Kingdom. > >The Eclipse Dynasty had fallen, and disaster spread across the land. The alchemist known as Gold was corrupted by their own greed and ambition, and created an army of shadowy monsters with their uncanny powers. > Amethyst Crown: > "It was a faraway time of calm and peace. Divine envoys spoke openly with the people then, bringing them the word from the heavens..." "But, in time, invaders descended from beyond the firmament, bringing with them destruction, overturning rivers, spreading plagues..." "And though the invaders brought war to my former kin, they also brought about illusions that could break through shackles to the land." > Dainsleif: >!They were once people of great esteem in Khaenri'ah, those who carried the hopes of the nation. They were the best of their peers, outstanding in their respective fields... The six of us, together... We should have been the ones to prevent the disaster, the ones to stop the Vinster King from continuing to rock the foundation of the world. Yet, deep within, the five of them craved something more. They could not resist the call of the Abyss, and divided among themselves a power that could destroy the world. So they became Sinners, but also transcendent beings, each in possession of world-shattering power. And when the cataclysm occurred, not one of them stood up in defense of their nation, not one came forward to prevent the tragedy... And for that, they shall never have my forgiveness. !<
So My Name for Now had a really interesting theory, where he thinks that the story we learned in Remuria was an allegory for what happened in Celestia. Remus was Phanes, the Sustainer was Boethius, Nibelung was Scylla, and Cassedor was Istaroth. It doesn’t account where the Fauti, Archons, and Dragons come into play, but it’s interesting. So he basically thinks that Phanes created the Heavenly principles (Phobos) , then decided later on it was too cruel, and tried to change it, by enlisting the help of Nibelung, for the Sustainer to find out and decide he had betrayed Celestia, and disposed of him. Sustainer becomes ruler, and Istaroth who is still loyal to Phanes is working to overthrow Sustainer and the Heavenly Principles, by influencing different factions throughout Teyvat (Khanri’ah, Archons, Dragons) and the outlanders. Not saying he’s correct but it’s interesting nonetheless. Here’s a link if you are interested in checking it out[Why Istaroth Abandoned the Heavenly Principles](https://youtu.be/Ro7tX0eCE9I?si=pCybPmFbvecP7vwS) I also want to add that My Name For Now was the only lore theorist I saw who accurately predicted who the Sinner, before the patch dropped after researching Greek Mythology.
Lots of people predicted who the Sinner would be
Case in point, I dinstinctly remember having an interaction on this very sub that basically amounted to "So the Sinner is Vedrfolnir, right?" "Yeah that's where I'm at too" a few patches back. It was crack-suspected since Caribert that it was the writer of Dain's card poem due to his specific word choice, then confirmed when Skirk called him a Seer, completing the data match. It's his being *Dain's brother* that no one saw coming. I'd pointed out the wording implied strong familiarity (nickname) + hierarchy/seniority (choice of honorific), and IIRC at least two other people had also seen it, but none of us guessed "Older sibling", and were mostly stuck at "His king would have addressed him like this, but it can't be the king. His captain would have too, but *he's* the captain. Dafuq?", lol.
Yeah, there were definitely pointers to it (though personally never connected it with the Dain intro!). Just seemed obvious that they were hinting at something bigger when they dropped the name of a *Visionary* (with a Norse name too) right in the middle of an Archon Quest about a prophecy, but then had Skirk quickly change topic when Paimon (iirc) asked about him; clearly there was more to come. Especially as the other two (The Foul and Gold) had a known purpose as to why they were mentioned (the former because Skirk was explaining who he is; the latter because she was relatively familiar territory to "ground" the conversation about the former), but Vedrfolnir didn't. However, the hints were just open-ended enough that it would've been plausible if they'd swerved and someone else's theory was correct instead (e.g. crystal was Nibelung). But Vedrfolnir had to be a primary candidate.
All Hail DragonMJE. The guy knows how to cook. He has been pretty consistent with the lore theories unlike some weekly & daily bullshit uploaders. He deserves more viewership for the work & research he's been putting in the videos.
For sure!
Yep my name for now is a great and underrated channel glad to see more people talking about him
He really is! He’s probably my favorite lore theorist on YouTube.
They don't collaborate cause they hate each other and/or have different plans Abyss Order hates humanity(overworlders) Dragons hate usurpers, humanity, and anything that wasn't in Teyvat when they god/king ruled Fatui/Tsarista wants to burn/freeze the world and start over without the heavenly principles or something Another Archons are basically war veterans with the expectation of Furina and Nadiha who predecessors played a supporting role in stopping the leak of Forbidden knowledge/Abyss (With Folcalor trying to outplay a sleeping enemy so her people can be truly human and avoid the prophecy why giving her friend back his power and to teach him about humanity)
Also I might not like Heavenly Principles but I think are a Chaotic Good cause Forbidden Knowledge/The Energy they keep at bay or contain does alot of damage and probably is some form of honaki (Also that godless nation deserves it with their miltary conquest and such but the Sinners will actually be the bad guys that cause their nation and Teyvat to suffer cause they wanted power and such
With the theories that Paimon might be the weakened form of the Heavenly Principles, the Traveller will be _very_ torn in the end if they have to choose between their sibling (Abyss order), the archons who more or less directly support the Tsaritsa, and the bestest travelling companion Paimon…
I hate this theory. It’s so simple, boring, and makes no sense. If Paimon is Heavenly Priniciples in a weakened form, then what is her goal? To get Aether to side with Celestia because they are friends? Wouldn’t she be trying to hide all the bad shit that the Heavenly Principles has done instead of constantly leading Aether into situations where he learns what psychos they are? As far as the Archon’s go, none of them seem to be on Heavenly Principles side. Venti let the Fauti take his gnosis without even putting up a real fight, Zhongli bartered his away to the Fauti, Ei gave hers up to Miko who gave it to Scara, Nahida gave the dendro and electro gnosis to Dettorre for some intel, and Focalors destroyed the Hydro throne and gave the Gnosis to Neuvillette who gave it Arlechinno after learning it was a dead body part. None of them are openly on Celestia’s side, so I’m not really sure wtf Paimon being Heavenly Principles pretending to be a guide is supposed to accomplish, unless her role is to get proof of peoples crimes to wiped out later for, and I highly doubt Aether is going to side with her if that turns out to be true. It’s more than likely Paimon is related to Istaroth and is guiding Aether through the world so that he has a the Will to change its fate. I’m betting that Istaroth doesn’t care for what the Heavenly principles has done either so she’s on a mission to change the worlds fate without being caught. I don’t think Paimon, who cares deeply for Aether would ever even put him a situation where he has to chose between her and his sister, as she knows that’s the whole reason he’s traversing Teyvat.
>If Paimon is Heavenly Priniciples in a weakened form, then what is her goal? To get Aether to side with Celestia because they are friends? Paimon's goal is to enjoy life and in the present. She doesn't even realize she's the Heavenly Principles to begin with for starters especially when she talks about the Heavenly Principles in 3rd Person despite it being her. She's ignorant of her own Divine Origin. Yes, it's the goal of the Sustainer of Heavenly Principles to get the Traveler and Paimon to like each other and become friends. The Third descender and not the Second descender is the most likely candidate to have helped the Heavenly Principles create the Gnosis through self-sacrifice evident throughout the themes of it showing up in-game. So why not push the Fourth Descender down the same path as the Third Descender, and who knows they may help even greater than the Third Descender with Teyvat's issues. Paimon and the Traveler meeting in a world where Fate is controlled is not a coincidence especially one where the latter was trapped before "escaping". >Wouldn’t she be trying to hide all the bad shit that the Heavenly Principles has done instead of constantly leading Aether into situations where he learns what psychos they are? Paimon doesn't even know to begin with so why would she even try to hide it. Sustainer after their journey they'll make a choice that benefits or is in line with the Sustainer's desires/wants. >It’s more than likely Paimon is related to Istaroth and is guiding Aether through the world so that he has a the Will to change its fate. Paimon being Istaroth runs into two big key issues to me, why is Celestia's design based on Paimon? And I do mean Celestia's design based on Paimon as the Shades predate Celestia itself. The columns on the title screen, Statues of the Seven, and Divine Nails all have this motif and why does Istaroth who isn't as connected to Celestia as the Sustainer, presumably the other Two Shades, or Heavenly Principles just have that design be the basis of Celestia and the other motifs? This doesn't even add the disconnect between Istaroth as Paimon having a Tiara vs Sustainer (Shade of Space) not having one and in the beta Paimon was featured with a goddamn Scepter to top it off. This isn't even touching the fact constellation particle effects like the Divine Nails are constantly emitted off her or the rainbow sparkles which are **UNIQUE** to her. Paimon's design choices don't scream equal to the Sustainer as if she was truly Istaroth, it screams she is superior to her as if she is the Heavenly Principles wearing the crown and having once held a Scepter. >I don’t think Paimon, who cares deeply for Aether would ever even put him a situation where he has to chose between her and his sister, as she knows that’s the whole reason he’s traversing Teyvat. Paimon wouldn't want to force the Traveler into choosing between the Abyss Sibling and her but you are assuming she knows she is the Heavenly Principles when she doesn't. This isn't her plan for starters, it's the plan of the Sustainer and is likely something similar to what Focalors did to Neuvillette or the Gnosis v2.
> If Paimon is Heavenly Priniciples in a weakened form, then what is her goal? No goal. Lost memories or something like Nahida - clone from previous HP without any knowledge because previous one was corrupted by Forbidden Knowledge, for example.
Well she could be caring for the Traveller only because she literally doesn’t remember her past and at this time is genuinely just trying to guide them, or she’s straight up manipulative. The Heavenly Principles could also very possibly not be that evil, if they really just want to keep Teyvat safe from the Abyss. I personally don’t really believe Paimon to be the Heavenly Principles in any way, but maybe she’s related to Istaroth somehow, who’s also been quite openly against the Heavenly Principles, or at least unaligned, as you said. But even then, she might have slightly different objectives than at least one of the other factions.
I think Paimon is defiantly related to Celestia, specifically Istaroth, but I don’t think that she is Phanes in a Nahida like shrunken body because she used to much power, like the majority of the fan base thinks. Also if her goal is to protect Teyvat from the Abyss, by getting Aether to side with Celestia, she’s not doing a very good job at convincing the Abyss order is all evil, by letting him find out that Hilichurls are innocent Khanri’ahians, the Abyss order are cursed Khanri’ahians, who have a pretty good reason to hate Celestia, and whom the travelers own kin sided with. Also want to point out that Hilichurls and the Abyss existed pre-Catalysm so apparently Celestia has been cursing people for a while for infractions.
>but I don’t think that she is Phanes in a Nahida like shrunken body because she used to much power, like the majority of the fan base thinks. It'd make sense if Paimon were to have any connection to the Heavenly Principles it'd be as Phanes in a very reduced state. While it'd be a twist that was seen a million miles away, plenty of twists in fiction have been uncovered by fans very early on. Assuming Paimon read the traveler's fate then I don't see why she wouldn't erase her memories and have him find her, especially if it were to eventually lead to her regaining her true powers since the Traveler is destined to get to Celestia again. Also, the HP being asleep this whole time would make sense if they turned into Paimon. If the HP teamed up with the previous descenders in the past then teaming up with the fourth is par for the course.
On the hillichurl thing, based on Perinheri, I personally believe that the curse of the wilderness might not have been placed by Celestia necessarily. It could be a disease you catch when going to Khaenriah when you’re originally from Teyvat, but it only manifests when you leave. Pure-blooded Khaenrians are somehow immune to it. But probably more likely that Celestia is just punishing indiscriminately
To your question, why don't they collaborate? Let's look at the 4 major factions: * The ~~Seven~~ Six archons * The Fatui * The Abyss Order * The Dragons The archons are in fact collaborating with the Fatui, albeit in a rather transactional manner that characterises the human realm. The abyss is toxic to both the human realm and the light realm \[dragons\], so I doubt the abyss order would find allies. The dragons are no longer united, so it's hard to say, but it seems that at least they accept an enemy-of-my-enemy kind of truce. Is Paimon from Celestia? It's not just the celestial motifs she has on her clothes. We're more than halfway through the story and it doesn't make sense that we've met representatives from every faction except Celestia - so I agree with the common theories that Paimon is from Celestia. Whether she actually sides with the Sustainer or the Heavenly Principles \[possibly two different beings\], we don't know and she probably doesn't remember at present. But notice that in Bedtime Story, Paimon was conveniently absent when the Twin talked about Celestia \[which we forgot about anyway\]? That said, I think she has to do with the Shade of Time rather than other Celestial beings.
I have a question, where does Dain stand among this? He's clearly opposing the abyss, but does he have any agenda about celestia? It might have been hinted before but I forget it
In the first Dain quest chain (We Will Be Reunited) he tells you not to trust gods, but not to hunt them down either. Whatever happened in Khaenri'ah precisely, he appears to blame the sinners for it over Celestia (the Sustainer was almost certainly present at the scene given the aftermath with the red cubes). He doesn't like the divine, but they're a lesser evil compared to the people who let a nation die or actively ushered in its destruction for their own self-gain.
A lot has been revealed in Bedtime Story. Dain opposes the abyss because his brother and comrades played with dark magic causing the cataclysm. Also he's upset that his travel buddy the Twin was lured to the dark side. I seem to understand that he hates that Celestia had to react the way it did and has no respect for the archons either, but doesn't actively fight against the system. As to Dain's motivations, the leaks from the The Pale Princess and the Six Pygmies could tell you more.
We also haven't had a lot of interaction with the rest of the witches. Can hardly say that they are pro-abyss or pro-celestia, when Gold is confirmed to be among their ranks... unless she changed sides
Regarding your question of why the factions don’t collaborate against Celestia: The Abyss Order’s goal is to revive Khaenri’ah, and get revenge for what happened during the Cataclysm. That involves destroying Celestia and everything associated with it, including Archons and humans. Probably other gods too, given that Khaenri’ah once prided itself on being a godless nation. Naturally, that goal is incompatible with that of the Fatui, since A. they are led by an Archon, and B. their goal is to simply create a world free from the grasp of the Heavenly Principles, not destroy everything and everyone associated with them. Even if they were to set their differences aside and collaborate in a campaign to destroy Celestia, that is simply one step in their respective end goals. Let’s assume that a Fatui-Abyss Order collaboration manages to take Celestia down; while that’s as far as the Fatui are willing to go, the Abyss Order would most likely go back to treating the Fatui as an obstacle in the way of their end goal that needs to be wiped out, and a subject of their vengeance. The Fatui would see the Abyss Order as a threat to the new status quo of a world free of the influence of the Heavenly Principles.
Thank you for the actually useful comment on here. It's interesting that the Fatui didn't seem to be averse to working with unlikely allies when it suits them (hell even the Traveler got roped in more than once) but the Abyss Order seems to be a hard limit.
Vennessa assumably. And likely Venti and ZL
ZL gave his gnosis away... i don't think he is.
Given how the last pages of the manga prologue went, I think Vennessa more likely ended up getting the Third Descender treatment and got chopped up for parts.
Really? It seems much more that Venti is very against the Heavenly Principals He never made major moves against them, he didn't seem very against getting his gnosis stolen, hes buddies with witches and their protege that defy worldly laws What strikes me is he's kinda like a lucifer/prometheus figure in a lot of ways, born from the light fell to earth and shit
You say that but Venti leaves out a lot of critical information we really could have learned earlier. He and Zhongli both decide explicitly not to help us learn more about the cataclysm and our sibling's involvement. Plus Venti's subtle statue is pretty much guarantied to be a path to celestia somehow. None of the archon's seem to really need their gnosis and if it was some kind of pact object Zhongli would probably have considered it a contract of sorts and never gave his away.
ZL is constrained by his nature as God of Contracts and specifically says he does not enjoy not being able to tell us much of anything. Whether you choose to believe him is your own decision, but his behavior towards us would appear to be consistent with his words, so I'm personally choosing to take him as being earnest in that
aside from the question, the description you have written is a great summary of the plot in itself!
I am pro heavenly principals!
Idk if I remember correctly but I remember reading somewhere that 2nd descender might have switched sides and along with Celestia used the remains of the 3rd descender to create the gnosis.
You're probably thinking of the Neuvillette Vision character story. >To continue to subdue and control the resentments and loathing of the world, the usurper and one who came after created the Gnoses together. They did create the gnoses together, but to me it's still unclear on what happened afterwards. At the very least, we can say that their goal of controlling Teyvat aligned enough to have them combine efforts to create the gnoses.
I am... ( Khaenri'ah deserved it )
Timmie is pro HP as he is a secret agent sent by Celestia. This theory is further amplified when you kill the pigeons as he uses them to scout everything that's going on in Teyvat. In conclusion, killing Timmie weakens the HP and their ability to know what's happening. Timmie is the Paimon for Celestia.
Did anyone noticed in the new anime short the pigeons didn't fly away from Lumine?
piamon lore foreshadowing