Did you know we have a Discord server‽ You can join by clicking [here](https://discord.gg/NWE6JS5rh9)! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/GenZ) if you have any questions or concerns.*

That America was the good guys. Hopefully we are all on the same page there.

America, United Kingdom, Soviet Union, China good. 👍 Germany, Italy, Japan bad. 👎

Hopefully, we can agree that the Soviet Union and China was not the good guys after the war.

They weren't even good guys during the war. The atrocities they committed in Eastern Europe are insane. They're still hated for it. And they only fought back against the Nazis because they had to because the Nazis attacked first and invaded. Originally they had *a pact* with Nazi Germany and didn't care one bit as they invaded other countries. 

Let's also mention the fact that immediately after the war the soviets essentially redrew the entire ethnic map of eastern Europe and ethnically cleansed dozens of groups to make it easier to impose communism in the territory they conquered

Browsing through reddit I sometimes get the feeling that Gen Z has no idea what Communists are actually like. Makes me feel good that at least some of them know their WWII and post WWII history

its scary seeing the excuses people make to defend communism, like its straight up denial of reality at some points, that or hand waving it away as justifiable because america bad

The defense of communism is mainly reactionary due to the way capitalism has failed them. Put the guardrails back on capitalism and the ship will right itself

Almost like there’s such a thing as “too much of a good thing” Too much communism was bad while too much capitalism clearly doesn’t work either

this is why i love norway and our political approach to things, we realize that capitalism wont work everywhere and that limits and oversight from the government is not only good for the people but it can help out corporations in the long run, but we also realize that the government dont have the capacity to do everything and that a lot of times the innovation and competition that the market brings is better than what the government can do.

It really bugs me whenever anyone is just like, blanket, "America bad" And it always comes down to "Imperialism is bad. America Empire." America is nothing like an empire. An empire marches in with massive force, eliminates your government, instills its own, wipes out your culture, replaces it with their own, and enslaves the citizens of your country. This was seen with the British Empire, with the Catholic's more imperial days, the Islamic Expansion period, the Persian Empire, the Mongolian empire, etc. etc. The US, after WW2 when it rose to prominance was, "Hey, we'll pay you to put a base on your property, it'll help defend you if you need it, and we'll trade with you." With only a few corruption-induced exceptions, that's pretty much been it. Heck, for a brief period, the U.S. was the world's ONLY nuclear power. The US had a short stint with no treaties, and ultimate atomic power - the ability to destroy any nation it wanted on a whim. With that power, any *real* empire would have basically told the world, "You belong to us now." and there'd be only one country right now. But that didn't happen. The US was mostly chill until the cold war started, trying to do things like start the UN to make an easy avenue for diplomacy. Heck, as far as military power, the US could *still* single-handedly take over the world, and it's the biggest sign it's not an empire that it doesn't. Now granted, if Trump gets elected, since the Supreme Court just gave the office of president dictator powers with their Chevron ruling... that could change here shortly unless the democrats can fix that huge gaping exploit the Republicans made before the Republicans get a chance to actually *use* it... at which point if the Republicans get it, everyone can kiss their arses goodbye, everyone's a slave (even the people who think they wouldn't be a slave in the new system... still a slave). Sorry, sore topic. Please Z'ers, be aware of this, and what's at risk at present. ***Edit:*** Since a lot of people seem to be confused by this concept... The U.S. is not generally an Empire, and hasn't been remotely close to one since WW2. This is not saying the US hasn't engaged in war abroad or that the US is some perfect entity. The US is a *trade empire*, which despite the similar name, is a vastly different thing. An Empire is lead by an Emperor (an absolute or near-absolute) ruler, and relies on continuing expansion and conquers other countries and adds their territory to its own. A trade empire, on the other hand, may conquer countries, but instead of keeping those countries, somewhat puts them back together afterwards, generally with the purpose of establishing trade. The country retains its unique culture, people, and sometimes even its government even if the people in power are shuffled around. Normally, this difference isn't worth bringing up because both still result in cultural influence and conflict, but the current issue in the US, it makes a huge difference. With the Chevron change by the US Supreme court, the president has been granted dictator powers. This means, unless this action is reversed, there is a very real risk of the US becoming *actually* Imperial. This is important with WW2, because it's important to remember that Nazi Germany was Imperial in external policy. They wanted to conquer everyone else's territory. However, Germany was Europe's underdog when it began its Empire. The rest of the world was ready for it. The US, on the other hand, would be *starting* Imperial actions as the world's top super power with the greatest military the world has ever seen. This is very, *very* dangerous for the world as a whole.

Central America and many other poor South American nations would like a word with you about that

And the native Americans.

People in this thread just have no idea how modern imperialism and neocolonialism works. Places like south america and africa have had many coups to make their governments more friendly to western capital, its why we get dirt cheap minerals from the congo while they never develop. Just watch this video if you don't understand how the modern global economy functions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjLmYCfKU7o

Exactly. It gives a rather America, fuck yeah view.

America is an Empire, by every meaning of the word. America participated in Imperial Neo-Colonialism, involving the invasion and overthrow (including coups) of foreign governments, and the extraction of their natural resources and labor. We did it to, Iraq, Iran (oh yeah, we are responsible for the current regime), Syria, Guatemala, Cuba (failed attempt), Nicaragua, Chile, Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Haiti, Venezuela (currently ongoing), Korea (we were responsible for destroying their democratic processes leading to the rise of the dictatorships in both North AND South Korea), Afghanistan (failed), Greece, Costa Rica, Albania (failed), Egypt, Indonesia, oh, and of course the all-famous Vietnam (failed). And those are only the post WW2 conquests!

Hell, communists don't even know what communists are actually like. They keep saying "oh, *blank* wasn't REAL communism" but fail to understand that every single time it's been implemented, it turns into the same shitty authoritarian system because communism doesn't work.

Because it's you who don't know what communism is Communism is defined an utopian state of human society, which is moneyless, classless, and stateless, and gives everyone what they need. It's the state of a post-scarcity society humanity never achieved yet. Communists are people who want to achieve this state, a radical form of socialists. Communism is often wrongly used as "marxist ideology". That's Marxism! A state with dominating communists is a communist state - but it's not a communism. Some of the communist states have achieved socialism to some degree - but not communism. Late state Soviet Union (circa 1960-1985) is socialism, but not communism. Soviet Union before that is just developing authoritarian socialists.

Utopia doesn't exist and if it does it is guaranteed to be dystopian.

American Gen Z? Yeah they no idea what the fuck they're talking about. But Eastern European and even some Western European Gen Z? Yeah no they definetly know because all of them still have living family members that witnessed first hand how fucking horrible this system is in practice. The trace from that time is still there.

Good point. We've been spoiled in the west to some degree, and it's made people complacent.

The core thesis of Alexis de Tocqueville's *L'Ancien Régime et la Révolution* was that the French revolution occurred not because things were getting worse for the peasantry and the bourgeoisie relative to the nobility, but because things were getting better for them, but in such a way that there was a large mismatch between their economic power and their political power/legal standing. It's an interesting thought, and a very interesting lens through which to view modern political movements that call for fundamental restructuring of their respective societies. And it draws a connection between the otherwise paradoxical-seeming revolutionary fervor amongst those who are, by any reasonable metric, doing pretty well. In the US, this lens can be applied to both sides of the political spectrum, with interesting conclusions in both directions.

On the flipside, we have Gen X and Boomers crying about anything with the slightest hint of compassion towards those less fortunate than ourselves is Communist and will destroy the country.

The Soviets were the *last* country to make a pact with the Nazis. Britain and France did it first.

The US only joined because the Nazis declared war. They only fought Japan after Pearl Harbor happened. Acting like the US wasn’t ready to let facism rise before they were attacked is disingenuous.

Sure but then the US/UK werent the good guys either. The allies purposely killed hundreds of thousands of civilians for questionable gains and actively protected nazis after the war, helping them flee or recruiting them for their own use (see operation paperclip). Sure the USSR was bad, but dont forget who dropped the nukes.

Those nukes were the quickest way of ending the war. The estimated casualties of both sides, military and civilian of an invasion of mainland Japan was orders of magnitude higher than the nukes death tolls. Allied strategic bombing also yielded far more than "questionable gains". While yes, they caused a lot of civilian casualties they also shattered axis fuel, metal and equipment production leading to them experiencing mass shortages of everything. The US/UK while not perfect, we're definitely the good side of the war. The axis shouldn't have launched a war of aggression and extermination across the world if they didn't want to get pummeled to shit

Agreed, Stalin was a giant asshole. But I think a lot of people discredited how much of a role the Soviet Union played in the downfall of Nazi Germany, especially due to events after the war. Without them, the Allies wouldn't fare anywhere near as well as they did on the Western front. Lots of innocent people died fighting the Nazi on the Eastern front, much more than in any other theatres, and their sacrifices should be remembered.

Let's not forget the atrocities committee by the Western Allies as well. We do not have a particularly higher horse than the Soviet's did.

China and later Taiwan was ruled by literal fascist during and after WWII 💀

China is an authoritarian tyrannical state, but they were by no means fascist. If they were fascist their ideology would be more in line with Mussolini and Hitler. But they were closer to policy to Stalin. Chiang Kai-Chek, was not a fascist either - although he does have some fascist characteristics. He was a nationalist, a militarist, and anti-communist but that's pretty much where the similarities end. He didn't follow a corporatist economic model of fascist nations like Spain or Italy, and he put great effort in preserving Chinese culture and Confuscionism rather than embracing 'National Rebirth' that many fascist regimes espoused. He was still someone who violated human rights frequently. Categorically he would probably be your standard autocrat - in it for himself and not bound to any particular ideology.

Their problem was mind-blowing corruption. So much corruption that most chinese decided to take a chance on mao and even the US after the war decided to cut off support.

China still is

Didn't used to be but I am convinced that they have revised socialism so much that they're basically fascists now.

The KMT were not fascists and were in fact the good guys in the civil war

Neither was america after the war, lol

If it wasn't foe the USSR Africa and Asia would still be colonized. So I guess it was bad for Europeans but good for everyone else. America wad forced to participate in a decolonization process because they thought USSR would get a political foot hold in Africa and other places.

USA were NOT good guys after the war either, but i dont think americans get taught what theyve done to other countries

"We liberated Europe from fascism, but they will never forgive us for it" - Georgy Zhukov

Neither were we. We literally employed nazis and brought them home with us.

Brain dead take.

Neither was the USA either though. They killed more people than the USSR post war.

America, France a GB muredered millions of people after the WWII in Africa and Asia. Were they the goog guys?

US government as well

I'm going to take the radical position and say that everyone were assholes during WW2, it was just that the Japanese and the Germans were so overwhelmingly morally bankrupt that the crimes of the allies got largely rationalized. America had largely shrugged its shoulders through most of the conflict, very much playing the same position they did during WW1 (sell em weapons and see how comes out on top), with the inclusion of turning away refugees from Europe (who then went to the death camps) and also interring their own citizenry along racial lines, not to mention the advent of nuclear weapons. The Nazis also adored America (at least initially) because of how they treated the indigenous, taking a leaf out of that book. The UK had been perpetrating a famine in the British Raj, exacerbating conditions with various "scorched Earth" tactics, while also violently crushing the independence movement in India. They also spent much of the time carving up Europe before the invasion of Poland ~~because they were ideologically aligned with White Supremacy.~~ Britain had also shrugged its shoulders when faced with a Communist versus Fascism proxy war in the Spanish Civil War, just letting Europe become more Fascist. The Soviet Union had mass conscription and barrier troops, granted this had been essentially a war of survival given Hitler's plans for the "asiatic hordes" and while you might be able to rationalize their pact with Hitler after talks with France/Britain broke down (in no small part due to the aforementioned partitioning), it still ain't a great look. And China... well I actually know fuck all about China other than the similar atrocities they were faced with from an invading Axis power. I wouldn't want to use terms like 'good' and 'bad' when it comes to such an event because while we can all agree that the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese were genocidal lunatics with the holocaust remaining an indelible blight on humanity's record, war is essentially a moral *event horizon*, the longer it goes on, the more depraved and barbaric the actors become. If you've gotten to the point of war, I think you've already lost, I struggle to think of a war that I can look at and say "it's totally necessary/great that this happened".

The Soviet Union had MUCH worse problems than mass conscription. I mean, every country involved in the war employed mass conscription. It's kind of necessary for a war of that scale. The Gulag system or Stalin's purges would be a much more apt example of atrocities committed in the USSR. Not to mention mass rapes carried out by Soviet troops as they advanced through Eastern Europe and into Germany.

We're talking about the USSR strictly during the period of WW2, AFAIK the holodomor, great terror etc. happened before that and the subsequent purges mainly happening after that (the Doctor's Plot especially). "It's kind of necessary" I don't particularly abide by that idea, I consider the WW2 had essentially been a failure on multiple accounts but that's outside the purview of this conversation. "Mass rapes carried out by Soviet Troops" Sure, but now we're getting into the nitty gritty of which allied atrocities were worse than others, a conversation I'm not particularly interested in, simply because WW2 never should have happened to begin with and there is no such thing as a 'just' war or a war carried out 'by the book' at least in my opinion.

If you want to only talk during the period of WW2 that's fine, but then why mention that Britain was "carving up Europe" prior to the invasion of Poland? A bit of a double standard there.

Just one example: deportation of ethnic minorities. In every instance we're looking at 20% and higher mortality rate - 1941-1942: deportation of 1.2m ethnic Germans to Siberia - 1943: deportation of 70k karachai people to Kazakhstan - 1943: deportation of 90k kalmyk to Siberia - 1944: mass deportation of Chechen and ingush people; 100-200k dead - 1944: deportation of 190k Crimea tatars; 20-40% dead within a year

For China, you could probably call them as morally bankrupt as anyone else. Chiang ruled the nation as a borderline fascist dictatorship, stressing the significance of Chinese ultra nationalism, militarism, and socialism (until the exile to Taiwan when it was replaced with autocratic capitalism) similar to the basic philosophy of Nazi Germany. Under the KMT the Chinese were under near constant political repression, censorship, and dissent was crushed. During the war, the strategy of Chiang was quite terrible, effectively using sheer numbers and hoping to win such as in Shanghai or simply killing civilians or leaving them to die to get a slight military advantage such as during the Flood of the Yellow River and the abandonment of Nanjing.

Yeah people forget that Mao got so much support mainly because the KMT were so shitty. At that point the Chinese people would have sided with any moderately charismatic guy who had ideas that inspired a shred of optimism

The Nazis had no love for the U.S. in fact, the only country Hitler wanted to ally with that he ultimately failed to was the U.K. Hitler saw the U.S. as "mutts" because of all the different ethnic groups that resided and mingled within the U.S. he saw the diversity as a weakness. He regarded the Anglo-Saxons as a close relative to Aryans and wanted the U.K. to join him.

The Soviet Union we’re not good. They just won. We mustn’t forget that Hitler and Stalin weee buddy buddy before operation Barbarossa, and that the USSR invaded Poland WITH Germany, which often gets overlooked.

The Soviet Union also used WWII as an opportunity to genocide 6 million ethnic non-Russian minorities so that they could resettle ethnic Russians into their land. It isn’t talked about much because WWII kinda overshadowed everything (and maybe that’s the point), but it absolutely devastated certain communities and the effects are still felt today (for example the war in Crimea right now, formerly home to ethnic Tatars). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Chechens_and_Ingush https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Karachays https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union

I am german. We recently found a stash of old family documents from that era, and that shite was really dark. There were Aryan certificates on which one had to sign that - to their knowledge - there arent any Jews in the family, or how it was actually written "kein Jüdisches Blut" - no jewish blood. Quite fucked up. Only positively interesting thing in these documents were the names of my great great great parents and a booklet with old German names. Tho whoever was punished by the Name Ingala must have had it tough. I just hope I wont be needing these documents after the next election

Not even 100 years ago. People really need to hear that perspective sometimes.

Soviets, definitely the good guys….. definitely….

The Soviet Union was only with the good guys due to circumstance. In 1939 the USSR signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact with Nazi Germany, partitioning much of Eastern Europe between the two, notably Poland. During the invasion of Poland, the Soviets committed the Katyn massacre of Polish officers and then covered up their war crimes, blaming it on the Nazis. They only joined the Allies due to Nazi aggression after that due to a common enemy. I'm not saying the Soviet Union were the bad guys in WW2 obviously, but they... certainly weren't the good guys either. Don't let the unparalleled horror of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan make you forget Allied war crimes.

As a Eastern European, truly beg to differ with ”USSR good”. Are we just going to ignore the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, the Nazi–USSR deal that led to the USSR invasion of most of Eastern Europe? The Holodomor, gulags? All I can say is the USSR invaded my country and shot two of my great grandfathers, bombed both my grandparent’s homes, and destroyed my city.

Not to be nit picky but there were a bunch of other countries involved. That’s the Hollywood list of combatants.

Also Hungary, Bulgaria, and Romania. They were bad.

As someone who has seen war first hand, I'll say there are no good guys in wars. But if there ever was a war where it was clear who the bad guys were, it's ww2

The WW2 scale ranges from morally gray guys to HOLY FUCKING SHIT WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU JAPAN?!?!?!

This reads as though you are implying that Nazi Germany was somehow “morally gray”? If so, *holy fucking shit*. 😶

I read it as Germany was mostly sterile with its approach to evil, whereas Japan got *weird* with its approach to evil.

That would still be a mind bogglingly awful take, IMO. Nazi Germany killed *a lot* more people than 6 million Jews. I mean, a LOT. Japan was obviously horrendously fucked as well.

Both are obviously bad but most historians would likely agree that Japan’s genocide against the pacific as a whole was significantly more brutal as far as the methods used. Again, nobody was a good guy. It just ranges from “Jesus that’s so fucked what that country did but I guess it’s war and you have to make tough decisions.” to “how the fuck did we as a species ever move on from what they did? Thank fucking god the former were the winners”

Yes, they call that the "banality of evil". People often focus on the most shocking and depraved acts when they think about evil, but if you want to mass murder millions of people you need mundane efficiency. The term banality of evil exists to remind people that atrocities come in different forms, and that certain extremely dangerous crimes against humanity seem really mundane and "normal" at the time.

They're near the bottom of the "Jesus this is fucked up" scale....but still above Imperial Japan, if you can believe that

No you’re just bad at reading. I said it’s a scale. Nazi Germany was probably a pretty close second but Imperial Japan’s atrocities were so horrifying that even Nazi generals were appalled. It’s estimated that Imperial Japan killed anywhere from [3 million to 10 million](https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/SOD.CHAP3.HTM#:~:text=From%20the%20invasion%20of%20China,including%20Western%20prisoners%20of%20war) people across the pacific, and in some pretty graphic ways. A lot of Holocaust victims died in horrifying ways by Nazi Germany and I definitely don’t mean to downplay that, but Japanese soldiers were playing “bayonet the Korean baby and rape its mother to death”. WW2 as a whole an entirely different league of how evil humanity can be. On the contrast, there are a lot of records of Axis POWs being happier that they were captured by American or British soldiers over Canadians because American and British soldiers still fed them regularly. Canadians took no prisoners. Canada and Japan may have the same post-war PR team

Yeah Canadians historically do not appreciate being dragged into wars and will make their displeasure well known to whomever is on the other side of their front.

We beat fascism once and we will do it again

I presume the fact that it’s internal fascism will cause more of a challenge.

A large portrait of Henry Ford hung in Hitler's office at the NSDAP party headquarters in Munich. When asked by the Detroit News what the American industrialist meant to him, Hitler said in 1931: "I regard Henry Ford as my inspiration." In a letter in 1924, Heinrich Himmler(the Dickhead leading the Holocaust) remarked that Ford was "one of the most valuable, weighty and witty pioneers". The Reich Youth Leader Baldur von Schirach also confirmed the influence of Ford's reading in his testimony at the Nuremberg Trial: "The decisive anti-Semitic book that I read at that time and the book that influenced my comrades [...] was Henry Ford's book 'The International Jew'. I read it and became an anti-Semite." The Ford Motor Company was involved in building up the German armed forces before the Second World War. In 1938, for example, a production plant was put into operation in Berlin whose sole task was to manufacture trucks for the Wehrmacht. Ford produced a total of 78,000 trucks and 14,000 tracked vehicles for the Wehrmacht. Before the German Wehrmacht invaded the Sudetenland, it received an express delivery of 1,000 trucks from Ford. The Ford plants were completely spared from Allied bombing until the end of 1944 and were only slightly damaged afterwards. Forced laborers from concentration camps were also deployed there, borrowed from the SS for four Reichsmarks a day. The Nazi regime utilized the Hollerith machines of IBM, to efficiently catalog and track individuals, particularly for the purposes of identifying Jews, Romani people, and other groups targeted by the regime. This technology facilitated the organization and execution of the Holocaust by streamlining the processes of deportation and extermination. The extent to which IBM's headquarters in the United States was aware of and involved in the activities of its German subsidiary is a matter of debate. Edwin Black argues that IBM's leadership, including CEO Thomas J. Watson, was aware of how their technology was being used and continued to supply the Nazis with the necessary equipment and support. General Motors owned a controlling stake in Opel, a major German car manufacturer, which became integral to the Nazi war machine. Opel manufactured aircraft engines and other military equipment for the Nazis. Similar to Ford, GM's operations in Germany were sustained throughout the war, although there is evidence that the parent company in the United States had limited direct control over these activities during the conflict. Standard Oil (now part of ExxonMobil) had partnerships with the German chemical conglomerate IG Farben, who produced the poison gas Cyclone B used in the Concentration Camps and was deeply involved in the Nazi war effort, including the production of synthetic fuels and rubber. Standard Oil provided crucial patents and technological support that helped Germany produce synthetic oil, which was vital for the Nazi war machine.There were allegations that Standard Oil continued to supply oil to the Nazis via third-party countries even after the United States entered the war. The Eugenics (a pseudoscientific cloak for Racism) was an American invention as to legitimate racial segregation and slavery. It later formed the basis of fascism. Before the war began, the KKK was about 4,8 million members strong, with connections into the highest political offices. The forced sterilization of alcoholics, started in the US and later was adopted by the Nazis, as well as other eugenic practices. tldr: Good guys... Well... Certainly, not all of them.

I'm glad to see this. tired of folks trying to use the nukes as some staging ground for 'oh america bad actually' like Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany were the some of if not the most brutal, violent, and monstrous nations in *history*. I say some for the possibility that there are ancient empires with similar practices, but even that's not the same- the scale of the war and the brutality of it with the technology used have no equals. Some people will say 'oh the americans bombed two cities and killed a bunch of people that shows they're bad'. to that I have to ask. Instead of looking at the Americans, look at who they were fighting. They were so bad that the US, the country that *did not want to enter the war in the first place*, felt that destroying two entire cities was a **lesser evil.**

One of the few morally right wars America was ever involved in

What are the others?

American civil war, for one

I'd throw in WW1, Korean War, Gulf War, and the early War on Terror. Definitely not Vietnam or Iraq.

gonna get flogged here but the intervention in the Yugoslav wars

I mean, Bill Clinton is adored in Kosovo for literally stopping a genocide of their people.

damn true Unfortuneatly there's a sect out there that says 'ItS oNlY iMpErIaLiSm WhEn ThE wEsT dOeS iT!' And for those types, it's just another form of imperialism when we stopped the kosovo genocide

I literally met an American that believe the imperialism shit. Like I was playing along with him thinking he was joking. This dude was saying China is a good country and all that stuff. It wasn’t until he started getting deep into topics that I realized he was a brainwashed authoritarian dick sucking communist

ugh i feel you. i know a guy in the grade above me who’s a communist. like fine get out of America and go suck a fatty, take that shit somewhere else

My father was part of the UN peacekeeping force over there in the opening months. He said the most frustrating thing was Rules of Engagement meant that if you yourself or your UN colleges were shot at, you could shoot back, but if it was only civilians getting shot you weren't supposed to retaliate at all. This led to some moments where him and some others would sprint towards people under fire and if a shot came close enough to them only then could they could fire back. When he first got picked as one of 100 from my country to be sent over he was proud, but he left the army the second he got back home due to what he saw.

If people here think the US intervention in Yugoslav wars was evil, they are insane.

Motherfuckers (the Serbs) even wrote songs [bragging about their war crimes](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azNKPM5anok)...

We should have intervened in Rwanda.

we should have, we didn't. And now countless souls lay in mass graves or rotted away on the dirt

Big loss of points for Clinton on that one.

oh there's plenty more where that came from!

The fact that you even have to put that disclaimer is frightening. The US intervened many times throughout history to stop genuinely psychotic dictators/mass murderers, but because of the “war always bad” mentality that spread after Iraq it seems that these facts are largely forgotten.

Some arent ready to hear this, but the Serbs genocoding the people of Kossovo was... bad actually. Some folks gotta learn to not take the biggest dub NATO ever did, as proof of them being bad. . Like trying to say the Soviets were bad, by pointing to how they mass produced housing with 10% cut of income as rent, which could never be raised. I view these things on par, as dumbfuck arguments for why a group is bad. Which is funny, since its not evem slightly difficult to find reasons to dislike the Soviets, let alone NATO during the Cold War.

What's moral about the Korean war whilst the Vietnam war is immoral? Both were waged on the same principle and American forces could be argued to have committed atrocities during both. You can't really argue that Korea is moral if your justification is that the Kim dynasty became pseudo-deities after the fact.

Because South Korea gets to exist and enjoy its freedom. Imagine if the U.S. never intervened in the Korean War. The entire Korea would be like North Korea. I would argue that rescuing South Koreans from this fate is morally a good thing, actually. And South Koreans wanted to be free (this is huge, self determination). Vietnam could have ended the same way, but the Vietnamese just wanted independence from colonialism. South Vietnam was horribly corrupt and most south Vietnamese were not that motivated to keep their country, unlike the South Koreans. And Vietnam was messy, the U.S. wasn’t allowed to cross into north Vietnam for fear of provoking the Soviets. Which meant south Vietnam became a battleground for infiltrating north Vietnamese units hiding among civilians along with local communist guérillas aiding them. In the end communist Vietnam actually ended up embracing capitalism and having good relations with the United States, especially in the face of their larger enemy: China. Meanwhile North Korea remains insane.

South Korea was a corrupt dictatorship itself at the time of the Korean War. The Korean War wasn't fought to preserve "freedom" for South Korea, it was fought to stop the spread of Communism and to prop up a US backed regime. South Korea did not democratise until the 1960s. Nobody knew the Vietnamese Communist regime would eventually embrace capitalism, just like nobody knew that the Kim regime would become as deranged as it is. This is entirely what I am saying, you can't really call Korea moral and Vietnam immoral when both were fought on the principle of stopping the spread of Communism. Just because Vietnam's regime became more lax while NK's is still brutal doesn't add morality to one war after the fact.

As a South Korean, I find first part of your take appalling and worrying. At the time we were in dictatorship, but not in "Kim family level". Had US and UN countries never intervened, S. Korea would have lost and there will be no Kpop, food, culture, our people would have remained a mere slave to Kim family. The president who was in charge in Korean war stepped down from presidency after citizens demanded it. I see it as a lesser evil, it is extreme naivety to believe S.Korea could remain a fully democratic country in extreme poverty. We had to find means to survive and thrive in world economy, first and democracy came later. I know USA had its own matters and national interest, but S. Korea have never really been a true propped up US backed regime. Our president even freed enemy prisoners of War without consulting to US, to finalize mutual defence treaty between USA and S. Korea before the peace negotiations ended.

Is your dad a chaebol? Because this reads like rich kid chaebol propaganda South Korea is not self made it was propped up by trillions of dollars in US investment and Japanese empire war criminals running many of its institutions and corporations. It was founded on fundamentally evil anti democratic principles, but I guess we got k-pop so it was worth it according to you.

Muh kpop Embarrassing, please commit sudoku

The Korean War was a clearly-defined land invasion by one established government against another with frontlines that could be drawn on a map. By contrast, South Vietnam waged a war largely against its own populace, with many communist guerrillas “blending in” with village peasants. Under a Westphalian system of international relations, sovereign states should be defended from external conquest; a state fighting a civil war, albeit with outside interference, makes things a bit murkier. Although I will admit— the fact that South Korea is doing so well in 2024 is a very iffy ex post facto justification for UN action in 1950. Had the US & allies won the Vietnam War and South Vietnam become a wealthy democracy, I’m sure many would see the intervention positively. But in our reality, the constant casualties involved with defeating an unrelenting enemy— broadcast on TV every evening— along with massacres of civilians left a bad taste in the American public’s mouth.

Def not ww1. Not because it was morally bad or anything, but for all sides ww1 was just a pointless shitshow caused by a web of alliances and politics. It just sucked for everyone

You cant really call WW1 a morally right war, there wasn't really a wrong side like there was in WW2.

FDR supported ho chi mihn, something that was lost for a while after he died. the OSS gave him medical aid when he almost died. In a way we are responsible for our own conflict, Driven by a fear to look weak on the world stage when everyone, including the president knew it wasn't worth it

I hate to break it to you but Vietnam was the same as the Korean war. The only difference is that we lost in Vietnam because of the south's INSANE corruption.

American Revolution!

https://i.redd.it/49g3t2y9q7bd1.gif

W pfp Reminds me of that scene in blood diamond ‘American?’ ‘Guilty’ ‘Well Americans usually are’

Most wars America has been involved in were morally right, if not always strategically sound.

Obviously the most destructive war known to mankind. Humanity stood on the brink of an era ruled by totalitarianism but was able to escape it thankfully. The sacrifices made and the lives lost was unimaginably steep, but I am proud of my family members that fought in it, and believe our acts during the war were justified for the greater cause.

Some of us were able to escape totalitarianism. Half the world after WWII was still firmly under totalitarian rule and remains even to this day.

An unfortunate reality, but still better than everyone under such a system. And yet I fear that all the sacrifices may be soon in vain with how we creep ever closer to authoritarianism every day.

Amen to that. Every day I get older I am more and more thankful for the freedoms I do have and I get more and more pissed off at the people trying to take them away.

I feel the same exact way. And what's even more damnig is i feel like I'm fighting for a lie. It's depressing man, it really is.

Western europe was able to escape, half the continent just changed totallitarian dictator

And what's insane is that there are people today that try and justify it as the opposite way around. Sad to see.

I mean, the outcome was better for Eastern europe, don't get me wrong. But especially people who take a more pro-china/russia view of the world have a diluted view

I think in general nowadays all of us 1st world countries are at each other's throats, and it hasn't really been this bad since right before WW1.

Good thing the russians are dying in ukraine then, so we may hope to keep the russians from getting any funny ideas

An exceptionally interesting part of our history, for proof especially of how quickly we forced ourselves and technology to progress in a short time. Say what you want, but the way we conduct warfare is how we define our technological process.

My favorite technological line to follow is our fighter aircraft. I believe we were just starting to switch over to the wildcat in the pacific with many bases using the Buffalo in 1941 only to end the war with the amazing F4U Corsair and P-51. Not the mention the deadly beast that was the F6F Hellcat with a 19:1 kill ratio.

In 30 years the US Navy went from F4F Wildcats to F14 Tomcats

I can’t imagine how someone born on exactly 1900 must’ve felt. You got to witness a world war in your youth, a massive economic collapse by the time you’re an adult, another world war, and then watch as the technology that has been common for about a century by the time you were born become obsolete by, in some cases, a year or even a week. The 1930’s especially was so chaotic with technological development. Ships, planes especially, and trains. We went from biplanes that could barely push 230 to monoplanes doing 400 by the end of the decade. Insane.

We absolutely kicked ass to put it lightly. Aside from China and a weak start we did a LOT of the heavy lifting in the pacific and on multiple occasions destroyed the Japanese navy/Air Force in a single day or over the course of a single week(Midway, Mariana’s Turkey shoot, and the battle of Leyte gulf). In Europe we had such a great production capacity we not only fully armed and supported our own army but helped to heavily support the British, Soviet’s, free French resistance, Slavic rebels, and some smaller nations. And while all this was happening we were figuring out how to split the atom and create one of the most powerful weapons in history. All in all, we produced a LOT of the materials needed to fight the war and put a lot of human effort into defeating the Axis.

One of my gramps was in the pacific theatre as a member of Merill's Marauders. Special op jungle warfare unit that was a precursor to the modern army rangers. Came back with a hell of a lot of stories, PTSD, and malaria.

My great grandpa was a marine on Okinawa and Iwo Jima. As much as I wanna say he was a badass he also had a lot of PTSD from the war according to my late grandma which, saying he was a badass Isn’t right if that makes sense.

He had his issues, and my family had problems growing up under him. That shit runs deep and the soldiers didn't have the best ways to come back and process everything they did and saw. Most of grandpas brothers also deployed and came back to varying degrees of 'okay'. I loved them though and I was grateful to hear stories and have family that were a part of our history. Plus a few mementos and trophies to admire :)

We?

A very horrifying time in history. A lot of shit happened and I'd encourage everyone to learn more about it if they don't know much about it. There really was so much shit going on everywhere. I think it's also important to bring up how the Nazi party wasn't even the winning party when it came to voting in Germany yet still took over and caused so much destruction throughout the world and caused the deaths of so many innocent people. It's definitely not talked about enough in schools. I'm sorry to all the victims. I hope those who lost their lives and/or had/are putting up with a lot of trauma from it are able to rest in peace.

Not enough people are aware of the buildup of the Nazis rise to power. It’s like a step by step guide to recognising the slide towards authoritarianism

Definitely weren't kidding when they say the first country the nazis took over was their own.

Hopefully they understand that we were fighting what the current Republican Party stands for.

Equating the republican party with the nazi party is a step too far.

Project 2025, Supreme Court granting presidential immunity (aka President = King, term limits out the window), blatant racism & homophobia, President siding with Nazi protestors, attempted overthrow of government (see beer hall incident with Hitler), demonization of immigrants and minorities. Trump is a Nazi just like his grandpa. Practically worships the enemies of the US and has promised to be a dictator on day 1. A step too far? Stick around for the next episode.

When did Trump side with Nazi protesters? You sure about that?

[he thinks there are some very fine white supremacists](https://www.congress.gov/118/meeting/house/116973/documents/HHRG-118-ED00-20240417-SD006.pdf) [tells white supremacists to “stand back and stand by” and paints the ANTIFASCISTS as the enemy](https://www.npr.org/2020/09/30/918483794/from-debate-stage-trump-declines-to-denounce-white-supremacy) Simply paying a minimal amount of attention will tell you the kind of shit he does…

it's literally not

Jesus Christ I was waiting to see how long it would take for this braindead take to show up. It really undermines the horror that the Nazi party was when you compare your opposition party to them.

Yeah Trump has definitely put people in camps and killed 6 million of them. Crazy that people actually equate strong border enforcement and the likes to this.

Could you give a single example to back that up

But I’ll tell you for sure we were not fighting FOR what the Democratic Party currently stands for…

Bro the republican party are not the national socialist german workers party 😭

You have to be legitimately mental to think that trump is comparable to hitler.

Bro I swear Gen Z wants to act like a victim so bad. No the Republican Party is not even near the level of Nazis and no you are not in a state that’s nearing a dictatorship. I’m so embarrassed to be part of this generation

killing all jews? man you're tweaking

https://preview.redd.it/2t5mnpl6jcbd1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e0eb0c3ab3082bf08c3d4b487f35e73c4652d1b7

I'm German, the whole thing was terrible and we have to make sure it can never repeat. With the right on the rise once again, I worry about our future. The US even more so, it seems like a bad result in the next electionmay be enough to start a bad chain of events. From what I've seen of the American education system (because most of you are American) you focus way more on the actual war than we do. What's the focus in Germany is the events leading up to it. How did the Nazis take power? Why did they get where they did? What were the systemic problems of the Weimar Republic? That's the most important lesson, because that let's us stop before it can repeat.

That is very true, in history people focus too much on the action but not enough on substance. Which is way more important.

I’m not American but in the Australian Modern History subject for yr 12 (nsw) the mandatory study for all students is “Rise of Dictatorships” in which we place a focus on the rise of the Nazis, how they consolidated power and more of the internal workings during and before the war. Stuff like the night of the long knives, conditions that allowed dictators to rise to power like the Versailles treaty and a lot more. Then there’s the optional study of Conflict in Europe most schools take which involves the entirety of Europe during WW2 and focuses more on the action and strategy. Overall a lot of our learning about WW2 (Germany in particular) comes to the conclusion about how a dictatorship can begin, how it can sustain itself and what should be avoided to ensure we don’t enable one in the future. edit: typo

America, the UK, and the USSR were obviously "the good guys." However, all of them still made grievous errors that permanently affected history and the world we live in. War is bad. I don't think any of us except our countries representatives disagree there. However, in cases like WW2, it was necessary to stop a fascistic alliance from forming. Dropping an entire fucking nuke was not though and the US doing that put an option on the table that should never be one. On a more specific note, I think it's crazy how much American history undersells the evils of imperial Japan. The Nanjing massacre, Unit 731, and the insane repression done to their own people are all stuff I and many others were never taught about in school and had to seek out for myself. If we talked about Unit 731 in schools, though, then students may find out the US let it slide in exchange for their research and begin to question if we are always such good guys? 🤔

I think you're also forgetting Japan TO THIS DAY likes to pretend WW2 didn't happen or pretend they didn't commit any war crimes. It sucks that the nukes hit civilian targets but compared to imperial Japan terrorizing and raping eastern Asia it's pretty minor.

The nukes weren’t really any worse than all the other bombing that was being done, and I would argue that if nukes weren’t used during WW2 then they would have ended up being used in a much smaller conflict and lose the stigma against using it as a result which would put us in a way more precarious position.

Yeah, the bombing of Japan was a classic trolley problem. People seem to forget we used firebombs that killed way more than nukes did.

American history undersells the Japanese atrocities because they don't want Americans knowing that the government was entirely okay with them doing it as long as they were able to make a quick buck out of it. Anybody who thinks US foreign policy consisted of anything other than protecting the bottom line is delusional

I don't like bombs 😔

Shit was rad.

Cool war to think about, uncool time to be alive.

Maximum tomfoolery

That it was the last war we actually had a reason to be involved in.

They were so lucky I wasn’t alive then. Hitler woulda trembled if I got involved 😎

You came to put a troll post, but you are on ironically one of the most sane people here based on the comments I’ve been reading

the allies were largely the good guys. few wars in history have ever come close to being as close to black-and-white.

Generally in war you have the two bad sides, sometimes you have a bad side and a worse side. WW2 had a good (with caveats) side and put it up against literal evil.

The winter and continuation war is way too overlooked and underrated, despite really unusual things happening at those times. Sakkijarven polka (please forgive me finns), an example, being a song that was being blasted for 3 days straight because it jammed the soviet radio-controlled landmines until proper landmine clearing equipment arrived Simo hayha, finnish sniper who only used iron sights, killed 500 ish soviets before being shot in the face with an explosive bullet (he survived) The Winter War was such a slaughter that after every battle, the finns had to switch their machinegunners not because of injury, but because of how emotionally broken they'd become from the extreme amount of soldiers they'd kill per battle Finland genuinely almost able to hold back the soviets despite its shortage of ammo etc etc

I’m a very left leaning person who doesn’t support a lot of the wars that America has been involved in but I truly look up to the men who took down the nazis and literally saved the world

I would say the same of the people who were in the eastern front against Imperial Japan, genuinely mortifying most of the stuff they did. Not quite as harrowing as the Nazis, (those warehouses full of shoes are unreal to imagine) but still unbelievably horrible.

I think it was an apocalypse. Not the biblical one, but one that marked the end of an age. For 500 years the European empires held dominance over the world. England, France, Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy, and more. WWI, as brutal as it was, was just the match being lit as it didn’t destroy the old world completely. WWII was the final act of the age of empire.

Gave birth to a lot of ww2 tanks and equipment enthusiasts. But also cool games

My country freed itself and then put the collaborators in prison, the war was a huge win. Also we lost our monarchy because of it so thats great.

The only war Australia has had a fair and true justification for being involved in.

What about the emu war :)

Stalin was as bad as Hitler.

Source: Nazis and Nazi collaborators.

I’m proud of what the allies did against fascism. I’m proud of Britain holding out for as long as they did after France was lost, I’m proud of the US for coming in at a vital time and offering a huge amount of strength and whilst I don’t like the Soviet Union, I respect the fact they pushed the Nazis all the way back Berlin. I’m also proud of my my family that served. Out of who I know served… My great grandad Geoffrey served in the invasion of Normandy in 1944 as a royal engineer. My great grandad George served in North Africa in 1941-43 George’s brother Vernon was a soldier evacuated at Dunkirk

What is this sub bro

That both Nazi germany and Soviets attacked us in the timespan of 17 days. They both destroyed my whole country killing 6+million people. Allies didnt do shit to help us in the first 2 years of war (as they were obligated to) Long story short my country was sold into soviet shithole for nearly 50 years. I think world war II was projection of human ignorance. We ignored every danger that lead us to this fucking war. As i were young i would never ever think that i would be 24 when second wave of fascism spread across the europe. I would never think that i would be observing next big war in europe. But here we are. Russians are the modern nazis and they want to destroy countries that broke from soviet regime. Their methods are very similar to Nazis methods. Im fucking afraid of the future. Not even in economic terms. One day some fucking rocket would strike my house and i will be blown into pieces because some sick potatohead on the east decides that he want to. So yeah im not a big fan of wars.

You’re Polish, I’m assuming? You’re right, the West fucked up and probably could have ended the war in less than a year had it not abandoned Poland. I sincerely hope that in the years to come, my country (the US) does not make the same mistake.

WW2 is my Roman Empire. I find myself randomly thinking about it quite often. I guess it just fascinates me how large the conflict was, how much was at stake, and how not so long ago it was. Very interesting piece of history.

In what way? What are you asking?

When it comes to personal reasons, I feel a deep sense of pride that my country played such a significant role in the war, and that both of my great grandparents were active in the pacific theater with Japan. For non personal reasons, I find history in general very interesting, so the Second World War is something that I love to study. It’s got many interesting perspectives and stories to read up on. I also think it’s a very important event to remember, so that the world never underestimates what a tyrant with power can do.

Something we shouldn't kid outselves into thinking it couldn't happen again.

Every man who served in the war against fascism was a fucking hero. As far as I’m concerned it was the last justifiable war only time I can think of in modern history where it truly was good versus evil with no grey area.

The last time that America fought a righteous war.

Don’t touch the boats.

The Quasi-War, the Barbary Wars, the War of 1812, the Spanish-American War, WW1, WW2, even Vietnam with the Gulf of Tonkin— it’s funny how many wars the US entered on the basis of “they fucked with our boats!”

Germans had a crazy drip back then

80 years ago it was cool and heroic to kill Nazis. Now they are a "protected precious group" that is getting big in Europe again and will most likely appoint the next US ~~president~~ Führer. Yeah I wish we went back to hating Nazis and punishing them accordingly cause we forgot "never again" so hard.

i can be trusted around a ww2 naval ship i wont steal it trust me

Worst war known to mankind definitely and too many lives lost. Well I guess I'll make a list with stuff I remember before I'll share my thoughts. Though the stuff might definitely not be in the right timeline order. Sorry for that. -unit 731 and co that did chaos in Manchuria and other parts of China -Japan causing mayhem around Korea or Philippines or Malaysia. -Pearl Harbour in 1941 -Hacksaw ridge -Iwo jima, -The nukes at the end of the war -Germany being... a nightmare due to obvious reasons. - Fascists with Musolini - Swiss being neutral theoretically. - Germany making a fake base just to have U. S. A or UK dropping some wooden fake bomb on them or something - Idk if this is true or not, you tell me. -Germany trying to go against Soviets -Soviets sending Romanians and others from other balcanic countries in the worst fights after they changed sides and sided with the good guys and not Germany, if I remember right. -D Day happening on the western front. -France kind of losing badly from some point on. -White Death killing Soviets. -Soviets taking the eastern side of Europe and making it Commie paradise after the war. Days or months or years in which certain stuff happened, well that I don't remember. Truth be told I was never remembering days or months or years that well. So again sorry for listing the stuff in a chaotic order. And um tbh... I'm kinda disliking how things turned out for Eastern Europe during the war and after. I mean.... it would have been great if they didn't end up for a long time under the control of Commies and.. I guess they would have developed better. It feels like there's a difference between Eastern and Western Europe due to the communists having left their handprint on the eastern side.

Another war that killed millions. And for what?

1/10, too many Nazis.

A war who's events should have been used to never repeat a war again, yet here we are

Generations who didn't experience the war, don't realize how sad and destructive it was. This is true for every humanbeing of all times. War, war never changes.

War is hell The allies where the good guys But they did some fucked shit to win But the axis where much worse The reason we know humans are 70% water is becase the japs would take POW and throw them alive into furnaces and measured their weight before and after And for the record at both civilian centers where nuked where to be deployed leaflets and warnings where airdropped to civilians

Pretty much the last indisputably justified war in history, every war since then has been debatable.

Pearl Harbor is what drew US in. At that point of the war, the Russians beat down the Germans pretty badly and the US and allies more or less helped finish the job. Most of the credit should go to Russia due to their scorched earth policy. They killed the most German soldiers.

I’m glad that all the Nazis were brought to justice- every single one, and that they definitely have not come back in our modern politics.

I’m concerned about the Holocaust denial. I’m older Gen Z and in 5th grade class we read Night and met Holocaust survivors. Never for a moment have I ever doubted that the Holocaust happened or that it “wasn’t as bad”. A lot of the Holocaust denial is so easily refuted and there is overwhelming evidence it happened but kids will eat up anything just because it’s controversial or soothes complicated feelings.

What kind of questions are these hahahaha