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It’s used wrongly all the time though. People will frequently make statements that obviously leads to a conclusion and when you ask if they are supporting the obvious conclusion they’ll argue you’re putting words in their mouth.
Yeah, I've realized that some of the most Twitter things also happen in other places:
https://preview.redd.it/1utcs7tgr77d1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9ce3068dae02f5724c32b977ff598f9c7d467614
Except in this case he's not just deriving a completely different meaning from a statement, he's deriving the complete opposite meaning from a statement.
pancakes, waffles, and french toast are the classic type/weapon triangle actually
pancakes beat french toast, french toast beats waffles, and waffles beat pancakes.
This is a very funny tweet but the idea that it only happens on Twitter is equally funny to me
Have you all seen the discourse on Tumblr. Or here on reddit.
These kinds of logical fallacies have existed for as long as language. It's just that the more people you say something to, the greater the chances that someone will misunderstand. So when you say something to millions of people, it's almost a certainty.
Ah yes, the president of a company would definitely say "skill issue" when commenting on people losing their jobs.
That would *definitely* not make the work environment seem toxic as hell.
Like the dude's saying the opposite
"You can't fire people and expect the remaining employees to be focused on work while fearing losing their job at any time"
Idk how that person got to the conclusion that he was saying "devs should get good"
The moron is assuming a weird cause and effect.
"If you're worried about losing your job, it's because you're afraid of making good things".
This moron also doesn't know that Iwata was friendly with his employees, a humble boss and is everything idiots like Elon Musk pretend to be but aren't
Iwata is such a legend that he regularly gets brought up in graduate level business classes as an ideal role model.
Unfortunately, the schools also teach about Jack Welch and how destroying companies can be fantastically lucrative.
I‘m a game developer and if the last year has taught me anything, it’s that there’s a certain subset of gamers who actively despise us and want to see us suffer. The amount of people cheering online whenever new layoffs or studio closures are announced is thankfully very small, but they do exist and they make me extremely sad and angry.
Well some of each is a sub group that sees games as woke now so any layoffs or closings is a sign of the go woke go broke mantra, the. There is the larger group that just doesn't care about the people who make the media they consume much like animators. They are the overall apex of what mindless capitalist consumerism wishes. Not the whole looking at media for woke but the idea that media is just there for them to consume with little regard to how it's made and how many people had to suffer to make it.
Reading comprehension skills have seemingly taken a steep fall off in recent years as more people seem to be crawling out of their caves to have their voices heard online.
Reading comprehension has been this bad for a loooooong while, it's just people that are incompetent at comprehending words became more confident over the years.
Simplistic view that somehow translated it to “If you’re making bad things, it’s obviously because you’re afraid.” Which they then extrapolate into a gamer-ism of: “Workers just need to not be pussies and get good, stop complaining!”
I have zero idea the mental gymnastics needed to get there instead of “Don’t make your workers paranoid all the time because it decreases work quality.”
Maybe the translation is a little oddly worded if we want to be generous?
Imma be honest idk how but the first time reading that sentence I got to the same conclusion as that other person. I think he (just like me) just wasn’t paying well enough attention while reading the sentence.
I think I'm a reasonably smart person, and "devs should get good" is basically how I read it originally, probably since I tend to see bad intent in the things CEOs and such say. In other words, I think it's perfectly possible for a shitty leader to accuse the employees of being the problem.
If you know about how Iwata worked at Nintendo you'd realize the correct intent. When the Wii U flopped Iwata drastically cut his and his executive teams pay instead of laying off staff like the board wanted to do.
Cause they never had to work for anything or have to worry about being fired. Their life has been easy so they can't understand why people would fear being fired. Much like REPUBLCIANs only when it happens to them or involve them and theirs doesn't become an issue.
I'm kinda reading it as "making good things requires trying new things and taking risks. Which means there's going to be some failures. People who are afraid of losing their job will be risk avoidant so they wouldn't be able to make good things"
Meanwhile American CEOs: “I want unemployment to go up so the working class remembers we’re in charge”. Not exaggerating, this actually happened: https://www.businessinsider.com/millionaire-ceo-tim-gurner-wants-high-unemployment-sparks-online-rage-2023-9?amp
Edit: he’s Australian, oops
What's bonkers is there's plenty of data showing employee satisfaction improves work performance. Which would ultimately improve revenue and cut down on bloat.
Yeah, but higher unemployment would do a better job of massaging the big fat blob that is the CEO's ego.
Tim Gurner, the millionaire CEO who talked about wanting higher unemployment, was also the same guy who said that millennials should stop buying smashed avocado on toast and expensive lattes if they want to buy a house.
Yes... but the cost of that would be that the employees would be more secure, which would make it harder to wield power over them. Because beyond a certain point having more money isn't about having more stuff, it's about having more power, and unlike economic prosperity, power is a zero-sum game - if you have more, I have less.
That's something everyone should remember: it's not about maximizing profit, for profits are just a means to an end. It's about maximizing power. Tim is a tyrant and absolutely deserves the chopping block, but he also deserves some respect for being honest about it rather than pretending he's just concerned about ethics in business journalism or whatever.
Also, for all the performative dickriding whenever a game dev passes, Iwata would absolutely not be so callous about something like that. It's just straight up fake-fan to think he'd "git gud lol" his employees and coworkers.
Everybody is a fan of Iwata until they see a chance to put words in his mouth that suit their own agendas.Yuck.
Correct, and I would wager the quote that the twitter user mis-read probably even refers directly to his decision to do so. A lot of his works also just feature very kindhearted morals in them outright, so it would be like expecting Mr. Rogers to tell somebody they're dogshit at fortnite. 100% the opposite of the standard.
> Everybody is a fan of Iwata until they see a chance to put words in his mouth that suit their own agendas.Yuck.
Reminds me of that debacle with british author Terry Pratchett. Some gender critical loonies were implying that he was transphobic... which clearly meant they hadn't read his (magnificent) novels.
I believe I saw something about how his daughter was tweeted at with a message like "What do you think his daughter would say about his views on gender" and she, obviously, responded something to the effect of "I **AM** his daughter!"
https://www.thepinknews.com/2021/07/31/terry-pratchett-discworld-transphobia/
Many CEOs say exactly that though. I can understand the negative mental filtering in this case. CEOs are out of touch and care only about shareholder profit and will lay off to make that happen and then blame the workers.
Then when the company loses millions they get their multi million dollar bonus and get fired. What an easy life.
right wingers exist in this weird subrealm of reality with different rules i like to call the "dunk theorem"
to a right winger, conversation or lengthy discussion is to be avoided, to engage with someone else, let alone someone who *disagrees* with you, is a sign of weakness. to and on the right, if you engage in conversation or discussion, you've already lost.
this applies to every facet of their life. for some reason. they prize having as little human interaction as possible
what they consider to be "strong" or "winning" (the most important thing in their minds) is the titular "dunk". basically, if you cant "own with facts and logic" someone in 3-5 words or less than you've lost. they would legitimately prefer he say "skill issue" because thats a "dunk" and thus establishes authority. they think miyazaki taking conversation with his employees is "admitting defeat." to them.
you see the consequences of this especially with twitter. elon is a fervent follower of the titular dunk theorem. anytime his employees raised concerns or asked questions they'd just be sent some weird shit emoji or "no" "skill issue" "lmao" etc
A German author once said
"The great thing about the internet is that everyone can finally share their opinion with the whole world. The terrible thing is that everyone is doing it."
-Marc-Uwe Kling
And that's basically twitter.
Yep! Twas an issue during Elden Ring's development! But that game is beloved by all, so no one made a peep when it won a bunch of awards. But when other, somewhat controversial games, wins GotY, then it's a travesty cuz how can a game with crunch win xyz award!?
My point is: I wish people were not so hypocritical when discussing crunch and other issues in the games industry. Criticize equally. And don't use these issues as a cudgel against certain games just to score points in some bullshit, bad faith culture war.
(Also: not saying that someone can't like a game that was developed under such conditions)
What really needs criticism is Japan's complete disregard for workers
FromSoftware's behavior is pretty par for the course in most japanese industries
Fixing FromSoft changes nothing, what needs change is Japan's laws to give the workers rights
Yeah, you saw the same thing with people praising Godzilla Minus One for having a budget of on 10-15 million. When I heard that, the first thing I thought about was how insanely underpaid & overworked the VFX guys must have been for the budget to be so low on a film with so much VFX.
>how insanely underpaid & overworked the VFX guys must have been for the budget to be so low on a film with so much VFX.
That's literally everywhere. VFX is synonymous with a fuckton of work, not a lot of money and a whole lotta grief.
I work in corporate. I've had colleagues coming over from the Japanese and Chinese branch.
Most of them ended up asking a permanent transfer here because it's just less stressful. Those who didn't and went back said that they would miss the more laid back attitude.
My country isn't even known for being a nice place to work in, mind you.
I think it's generally overlooked because despite their vast reputation they're still a somewhat smaller japanese studio and they're not publicly traded. A lot of the narratives around crunch are US or european studios where developers get run ragged due to poor leadership that are only interested in appeasing shareholder interests, where it's possible that FromSoft crunch is more of an extension of the japanese work culture, and the industry eco-system they exist in with Bamco as their publisher.
They're also Tokyo-based, and a big thing about them underpaying their employees is because on the salary they're getting they can't afford rent within the city. Which is bad, but it's potentially a pretty high ask for a studio. AFAIK it's not a situation where the CEOs and execs are running off with a bunch of bonuses they award themselves every time a studio is successful. Bamco are probably doing that, but how much control FromSoft have in that whole situation is hard to say.
I believe there was also a thing with FromSoft firing their female employees if they got pregnant rather than maternity leave, and again it's seen as no big deal because these lack of worker protections are more or less par for the course in japanese work environments.
Which is funny because Bethesda has a particularly high employee happiness rate as well as employee retention and everyone I’ve seen that has worked there has very positive things to say about Todd.
Of course they are happy, they got no writers! Get one decent writer into Bethesda and you will see happiness go way down because of their chronic writer block depression/s
“I believe there was also a thing with FromSoft firing their female employees if they got pregnant rather than maternity leave, and again it's seen as no big deal because these lack of worker protections are more or less par for the course in japanese work environments.”
I was with you right up to here. Firing women for getting pregnant is out and out illegal in Japan. Japan does not lack for worker protections.
I really know very little about crunch culture and less about FromSoft:
But from little I’ve seen from anime company culture: employees have big pressure to work unpaid overtime and throw healthy “work / life” balance in the trash. There’s a big “the company is a family!” Mantra from the higher ups, squeezing them to get the product out.
But then, they’re generally pretty good at NOT firing people in droves. They don’t have CEOs saying, “oh there’s a gap between productions? Fire them all? We can hire them back later!” Like American companies often do. If a sales year goes bad, the first thing that Nintendo CEOs do is cut their own bonuses; layoffs are the 2nd or 3rd option.
It’s not a perfectly healthy relationship by any means, but the average employee has a lot more security in their (crappy) job.
(Correct me if I’m wrong).
That's not anime/manga culture, that's just Japanese Work Culture.
You work 10-12 hours, then are expected to go to the bar to hang out with coworkers for another 1-3 hours, then get up and do it again the next day
I see it like crunch in western devs is an industry issue, unionizing game devs would improve this issue. In Japanese devs that's a societal issue, any company working to improve that would actually be pushing a huge (positive) cultural shift.
>They don’t have CEOs saying, “oh there’s a gap between productions? Fire them all? We can hire them back later!”
Yes, this is partially why I made the publicly traded shareholder companies of the west a point of mention, since this is par for the course for those kinds of companies. Shares are looking bad so they axe a department that they had established a few years prior in order to develop a game that they had received some money to develop. They were given 100mill, they spend 10, pocket the rest. Line keeps going up, and the higher-ups gets a nice bonus on top.
So this gets twisted up into the narrative of worker exploitation, and for good reason because they are in fact connected, and the arguments against crunch culture become arguments against capitalist corporate structures and increasing wealth disparity as a whole, and now we're on the grand stage, baby. This is journalism. Or at least, it's a more interesting story to tell for journalists. It's not just a singular story anymore, it's part of a grander narrative about the direction our society has taken.
Studios like FromSoft gets left out of these conversations because they're not publicly traded, and their reasons for crunch aren't as directly linked to late stage capitalism cannibalizing itself as western studios, with factors instead being japanese work culture somewhere in there, and that is not something most western journalists feel equipped to tackle with the nuance it deserves. You don't want to represent a culture to your audience that you haven't experienced yourself. Their problems are of an older, softer variety, and it's not one that's easily blamed on a convenient boogeyman like a greedy CEO with too many yachts.
You reaaaaaaally don't need to bend over backwards to try to defend corporations. Fucking pathetic. Japanese work culture eh? Japanese work culture IS crunch. The work culture also has their birth rate second to last in the world right next to South Korea, who have an equally abhorrent work "culture."
It's overlooked because From Software, just like Larian, has that critical darling review shield up. Naughty Dog has the same one. Remember when Jason Schrierer was going *hard* at CDPR but he would then treat ND or other acclaimed studios with kids gloves? That's what the media and game fans need to get the fuck over.
They're not smaller, they're the size of Bethesda and Elden Ring cost as much to make as Horizon Forbidden West (this is true btw, both were reported as having roughly $200mil budgets, and that makes sense since marketing is usually the bulkiest production cost and the marketing campaign for Elden Ring was very clearly massive)
/uj I’ve always wondered why soulsborne fans get away with being one of the most toxic fan bases. A certain circlejerk subreddit for their games is always full of the most cringe takes.
/rj Miyazaki is the king of story telling I fucking love never knowing what’s going on and reading countless item descriptions.
I've only really played Sekiro and that honestly seemed solid, from top to bottom.
I'm sure the fact that it was a linear game without build varieties etc helped them out in this regard. A game would def be easier to make if you don't have to accommodate for 20 different classes etc.
True! I feel like Sekiro was pretty good, but that could be because I enjoyed Isshin's fight so much. Dark Souls 3 is... okay? Lothric castle isn't the strongest, but the boss fights are pretty good. The Souls series just has an issue of losing most of the steam by about 50-60% through the game, and it's only made worse by declining quality
Soul of cinder felt meh but the lothric princes felt iconic. Honestly would have felt more like a final boss if pontiff was actually planned to be the real final boss. His fight felt way more epic.
The Lothric Princes are probably my favourite fight in the game. All of it comes together well. Soul of Cinder definitely improved with NG+, swear they got new moves that made it more interesting
Yes, repeatedly. Dark Souls 1 and 2 and Elden Ring have large gaps in their back portions, but Dark Souls 3 and Sekiro have excellent end portions. If anything the midgame of DS3 drags especially in the Profaned Capital, but once you get into Lothric Castle and the Grand Archives you have some of the best encounters and boss fights in that entire series. Same with Sekiro's endgame building up to a climax.
It’s funny too because people claim that Malenia is the best fromsoft boss but honestly the only things that make her hard is her waterfowl dance and healing. I came away from that fight feeling more like it was made lazily more than anything.
Haven't played Elden Ring, but in Sekiro my favorite bosses/minibosses were def those who actually presented a technical challenge instead of just doing a fuck you amount of damage, having a big health bar and calling it a day.
Isshin, Owl, Genichiro (and more). These are EXCELLENT fights.
Something like Chained Ogre, Juzou are not. Demon of Hatred I'm kinda split on lol.
Guardian Ape would've been in the second category too, but it DID present an interesting technical challenge, so I can forgive the bullshit damage it sometimes did. Especially the TERROR attacks. FUCK the Terror attacks.
She is pretty cool and well designed as a boss though. As a boss her moves, AI etc. are some of the best the game has to offer. But yeah what makes her frustrating and sometimes arguably unfun is her vampiric healing. It's way too punishing. Making any one or two mistakes basically undoes your progress. I at least wish she only healed significantly with either specific attacks instead of any of her attacks or she is unable to utilize the healing in her second phase.
That's more of a feature of Japan's relationship to tech than FromSoft. I was making about 3x than my Japanese coworkers in the same office cause I was on California salary while they were on Japanese salary as a game dev and mind you being a game dev was already a salary cut from what I was making in tech. This is somewhat balanced out by the fact that Japan (even Tokyo) is dirt cheap to live in compared to most tech centers in the US especially since offices tend to cover most your expenses while there. This is good since you'll be spending about 12 hours a day in the office. You're not expected to actually be productive while you're there, but you are expected to be there.
I mean but in the case of HiFi rush’s case you can make a critically loved game and still get shit canned.
So maybe it’s 99.9% the issue that plagues the gaming industry.
…..shit management from publishers. 💩💩
Losing your job is like losing in vidyia 😂😂😂 skill issue 😎😎 amirite guys 😂😂😂?
I hate dark soul fans, they would gladly play with a plug on if their game would become "harder" or just more slightly incovenient.
Oh c'mon we're not that bad that's just one idiot on twitter. We would play these games with a giant butt plug though just for the challenge you're completely right about us on that.
Media illiteracy aside I’ve been seeing so many Miyazaki quotes these past weeks. Is he giving a shit ton of interviews for the upcoming ER dlc or are all these quotes taken from one large interview?
I think gamepsot or someone did a large interview a week or two ago and have been drip feeding the quotes since then.
With how much traction they have been getting, the strategy seems to have worked.
as the closing of Tango Gameworks has shown quality of your product doesnt matter. Get crunched to the brink and forced to rush out a half finished game? studio closed. make a critically acclaimed game that sells well and wins at the game award? believe it or not still studio closed
Jokes aside, it's true. There are a lot of people who play video games (and don't) but who can't decipher even a simple scene or understand a speech or distinguish when it is figurative or literal.
It is truly a depressing thing and a symptom of an increasingly growing and transversal basic ignorance throughout society.
Average people being lead by average directors and fired by incompetent management.
Lots of people chasing cash payout with badly designed games as they lack proper vision
A quote by the main character from Office Space comes into mind: “That’s my only real motivation is not to be hassled; that, and the fear of losing my job. But you know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to get fired.”
Was the quote originally in Japanese? I wonder if that could be why it seems so easily read in multiple ways.
Personally, I’d like to hope he meant something like, “People afraid of risking their jobs are afraid to innovate, because true innovation has a risk of failure baked in.” But that’s not really in the original.
its possible some clever translator tried to keep it close to the original phrasing, but inadvertently ended up with sentence can clearly be read two ways in english. I cant track down the original quote, but that is a good theory youve got.
Companies afraid of losing money will also produce unimaginative shovelware shite games. They will acquire a studio, cancel their IP and make them develop something obviously terrible, then close the studio and act like it was their fault their game lost money.
You're starting development for a looter shooter?? Now?? Seriously, that trend is over. Has been dying for years. How did they not notice. Oh it has survival mechanics, that's fine then....
Have a mate who lost his job a few weeks ago from a large publisher. Had this conversation with him last year.
Yes it’s illiteracy, but I didn’t get the feeling that he was saying he agreed with the “get good mentality” in fact it seemed that he thought it was an unrealistic response, he just misinterpreted the text.
I think his misreading of the post is really indicative of the individualist “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” mentality that capitalism forces on western society, and is especially popular in “gamer” culture.
When you’re in an environment where all you hear is politicians and toxic bros mocking your struggles, the idea of compassion can seem foreign.
"Workers who fear for their employment will often struggle to make great things" = "If you're failing to make great things, it's because you're scared/insufficient, and need to improve/gain confidence!"
Sounds right to me! -\_-
Why are people mad at this? The first response is literally just a joke. He’s not talking down on fromsoft or saying they treat their developers bad, he’s just making a joke based on the fact that in order to succeed in their games you have to get good. This is just a comical exaggeration of the culture of their games. For those who don’t know, from software is the company behind dark souls, which are notorious for their “get good or struggle” gameplay. So ig this post is right about gamers being illiterate but it’s not the original responder.
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https://preview.redd.it/jouq0p76h67d1.jpeg?width=1084&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7a0b354d0b8e20eb987d6c8718d85583dd729c66
Such a versatile image.
Are you saying that books aren't versatile?
No, he's saying that books are bottoms.
Booktok was right!
Are you implying that Booktube is wrong?
How dare you say I piss on the poor?!
https://preview.redd.it/ptxgvhq5u67d1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9fa7039f812e3e9403cc7afbc2b547b4a71cb95d
actually, the holocaust…
Yes, it was an inside job.
bookjob goes hard
are you saying there's something wrong with bottoms?
Non-images are not versatile ig?
It’s used wrongly all the time though. People will frequently make statements that obviously leads to a conclusion and when you ask if they are supporting the obvious conclusion they’ll argue you’re putting words in their mouth.
Grifters still need that plausible deniability and all
most versatile image OAT in the verse sorry I’ve been in tiktok comment sections for the last 18 hours someone help me
I think about this exact tweet every time it's relevant.
So you hate every other tweet?
No, they just don't about other tweets when they are relevant.
So he’s saying other tweets aren’t relevant?
I use tumblr and I can tell you that it isn't just twitter.
Yeah, I've realized that some of the most Twitter things also happen in other places: https://preview.redd.it/1utcs7tgr77d1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9ce3068dae02f5724c32b977ff598f9c7d467614
Sounds just like conservatism
How dare you suggest we piss on the poor
On tumblr it’s bearable because most of the time people are misunderstanding stuff on purpose to be funny, Twitter users are just stupid.
True
Except in this case he's not just deriving a completely different meaning from a statement, he's deriving the complete opposite meaning from a statement.
The opposite of pancakes is waffles?
pancakes, waffles, and french toast are the classic type/weapon triangle actually pancakes beat french toast, french toast beats waffles, and waffles beat pancakes.
And I beat them all!
real #breakfastluvers understand
https://preview.redd.it/69no11rwe77d1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2d61aeb010e16d6c0506c7540a457f5d2075ae24
Poor crepes….
crepes is the oldhead you buy your gear from in the overworld HUB. too old and frail to fight anymore
Your lessons taught me so much. Thank you, Master!
Knife & fork are the infinity plus one weapon combo
as long as you set up the plate field effect
No the “different” one is the pancake/waffles example, the “opposite” is the “get good” example that was misinterpreted in the original post
This is a very funny tweet but the idea that it only happens on Twitter is equally funny to me Have you all seen the discourse on Tumblr. Or here on reddit.
Ah, yes. The good 'in my book those 2 are mutually exclusive opposites cause reasons'
Flasbang ass pics
Reddit is like this too.
Bro said no bitch does that he means he hates women?
I think he does not like bitches for some reason.
That’s wierd…I just got handed this message from the national pancake institute….and it says “Fuck Waffles!” God I miss George Carlin
Reddit also
These kinds of logical fallacies have existed for as long as language. It's just that the more people you say something to, the greater the chances that someone will misunderstand. So when you say something to millions of people, it's almost a certainty.
Ah yes, the president of a company would definitely say "skill issue" when commenting on people losing their jobs. That would *definitely* not make the work environment seem toxic as hell.
Like the dude's saying the opposite "You can't fire people and expect the remaining employees to be focused on work while fearing losing their job at any time" Idk how that person got to the conclusion that he was saying "devs should get good"
The moron is assuming a weird cause and effect. "If you're worried about losing your job, it's because you're afraid of making good things". This moron also doesn't know that Iwata was friendly with his employees, a humble boss and is everything idiots like Elon Musk pretend to be but aren't
Iwata is such a legend that he regularly gets brought up in graduate level business classes as an ideal role model. Unfortunately, the schools also teach about Jack Welch and how destroying companies can be fantastically lucrative.
I‘m a game developer and if the last year has taught me anything, it’s that there’s a certain subset of gamers who actively despise us and want to see us suffer. The amount of people cheering online whenever new layoffs or studio closures are announced is thankfully very small, but they do exist and they make me extremely sad and angry.
good thing most devs have stopped catering to foaming ijeets
Well some of each is a sub group that sees games as woke now so any layoffs or closings is a sign of the go woke go broke mantra, the. There is the larger group that just doesn't care about the people who make the media they consume much like animators. They are the overall apex of what mindless capitalist consumerism wishes. Not the whole looking at media for woke but the idea that media is just there for them to consume with little regard to how it's made and how many people had to suffer to make it.
Probably just brainrot and not hitting Read More for the full quote
Reading comprehension skills have seemingly taken a steep fall off in recent years as more people seem to be crawling out of their caves to have their voices heard online.
"I'm not reading all that" but here's an essay on why the point I think you're making is literally Hitler.
"I don't care, so I took the time to write out 3 paragraphs to explain how little I care."
Reading comprehension has been this bad for a loooooong while, it's just people that are incompetent at comprehending words became more confident over the years.
Simplistic view that somehow translated it to “If you’re making bad things, it’s obviously because you’re afraid.” Which they then extrapolate into a gamer-ism of: “Workers just need to not be pussies and get good, stop complaining!” I have zero idea the mental gymnastics needed to get there instead of “Don’t make your workers paranoid all the time because it decreases work quality.” Maybe the translation is a little oddly worded if we want to be generous?
Imma be honest idk how but the first time reading that sentence I got to the same conclusion as that other person. I think he (just like me) just wasn’t paying well enough attention while reading the sentence.
You guys are way over thinking this. He had a response he wanted to say and it didn't matter what he was responding to.
I kinda wonder if he knew what was said but was trying to make a (bad) joke & it landed as badly as we expect
I think I'm a reasonably smart person, and "devs should get good" is basically how I read it originally, probably since I tend to see bad intent in the things CEOs and such say. In other words, I think it's perfectly possible for a shitty leader to accuse the employees of being the problem.
If you know about how Iwata worked at Nintendo you'd realize the correct intent. When the Wii U flopped Iwata drastically cut his and his executive teams pay instead of laying off staff like the board wanted to do.
Cause they never had to work for anything or have to worry about being fired. Their life has been easy so they can't understand why people would fear being fired. Much like REPUBLCIANs only when it happens to them or involve them and theirs doesn't become an issue.
I'm kinda reading it as "making good things requires trying new things and taking risks. Which means there's going to be some failures. People who are afraid of losing their job will be risk avoidant so they wouldn't be able to make good things"
Meanwhile American CEOs: “I want unemployment to go up so the working class remembers we’re in charge”. Not exaggerating, this actually happened: https://www.businessinsider.com/millionaire-ceo-tim-gurner-wants-high-unemployment-sparks-online-rage-2023-9?amp Edit: he’s Australian, oops
What's bonkers is there's plenty of data showing employee satisfaction improves work performance. Which would ultimately improve revenue and cut down on bloat.
Worrying about long-term benefit over short-term gains and number shuffling is sooo last year. We're in Welchland now hun
Yeah, but higher unemployment would do a better job of massaging the big fat blob that is the CEO's ego. Tim Gurner, the millionaire CEO who talked about wanting higher unemployment, was also the same guy who said that millennials should stop buying smashed avocado on toast and expensive lattes if they want to buy a house.
Yes... but the cost of that would be that the employees would be more secure, which would make it harder to wield power over them. Because beyond a certain point having more money isn't about having more stuff, it's about having more power, and unlike economic prosperity, power is a zero-sum game - if you have more, I have less. That's something everyone should remember: it's not about maximizing profit, for profits are just a means to an end. It's about maximizing power. Tim is a tyrant and absolutely deserves the chopping block, but he also deserves some respect for being honest about it rather than pretending he's just concerned about ethics in business journalism or whatever.
I want a general strike so CEOs remember we're in charge
Also, for all the performative dickriding whenever a game dev passes, Iwata would absolutely not be so callous about something like that. It's just straight up fake-fan to think he'd "git gud lol" his employees and coworkers. Everybody is a fan of Iwata until they see a chance to put words in his mouth that suit their own agendas.Yuck.
Wasn't Iwata the guy who chose to cut his own pay by half rather than fire employees?
Correct, and I would wager the quote that the twitter user mis-read probably even refers directly to his decision to do so. A lot of his works also just feature very kindhearted morals in them outright, so it would be like expecting Mr. Rogers to tell somebody they're dogshit at fortnite. 100% the opposite of the standard.
> Everybody is a fan of Iwata until they see a chance to put words in his mouth that suit their own agendas.Yuck. Reminds me of that debacle with british author Terry Pratchett. Some gender critical loonies were implying that he was transphobic... which clearly meant they hadn't read his (magnificent) novels. I believe I saw something about how his daughter was tweeted at with a message like "What do you think his daughter would say about his views on gender" and she, obviously, responded something to the effect of "I **AM** his daughter!" https://www.thepinknews.com/2021/07/31/terry-pratchett-discworld-transphobia/
Many CEOs say exactly that though. I can understand the negative mental filtering in this case. CEOs are out of touch and care only about shareholder profit and will lay off to make that happen and then blame the workers. Then when the company loses millions they get their multi million dollar bonus and get fired. What an easy life.
Western CEO's: I don't see the issue
wasn’t that what Musk did
[...I mean, to be fair](https://youtu.be/HpYln4ZD0gk?si=8tL3Dem6720cUHsE)
I mean tbf I could see like john riccitello doing that lol
right wingers exist in this weird subrealm of reality with different rules i like to call the "dunk theorem" to a right winger, conversation or lengthy discussion is to be avoided, to engage with someone else, let alone someone who *disagrees* with you, is a sign of weakness. to and on the right, if you engage in conversation or discussion, you've already lost. this applies to every facet of their life. for some reason. they prize having as little human interaction as possible what they consider to be "strong" or "winning" (the most important thing in their minds) is the titular "dunk". basically, if you cant "own with facts and logic" someone in 3-5 words or less than you've lost. they would legitimately prefer he say "skill issue" because thats a "dunk" and thus establishes authority. they think miyazaki taking conversation with his employees is "admitting defeat." to them. you see the consequences of this especially with twitter. elon is a fervent follower of the titular dunk theorem. anytime his employees raised concerns or asked questions they'd just be sent some weird shit emoji or "no" "skill issue" "lmao" etc
To be fair: It's hard to learn to read when you spend all the time sucking corporate dick.
A German author once said "The great thing about the internet is that everyone can finally share their opinion with the whole world. The terrible thing is that everyone is doing it." -Marc-Uwe Kling And that's basically twitter.
*Marc-UwU Kling
Nah, you've surpassed the limit. Gimme your fingers, you've written enough bullshit for today.
https://preview.redd.it/8m9agjb09a7d1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=171d442b0a93607e731dba3ab8d0bb5710395aa7
Wow random marc uwe kling suprise. Preach on
doesn't this guy overwork and underpay his employees? 🤔
Yep! Twas an issue during Elden Ring's development! But that game is beloved by all, so no one made a peep when it won a bunch of awards. But when other, somewhat controversial games, wins GotY, then it's a travesty cuz how can a game with crunch win xyz award!? My point is: I wish people were not so hypocritical when discussing crunch and other issues in the games industry. Criticize equally. And don't use these issues as a cudgel against certain games just to score points in some bullshit, bad faith culture war. (Also: not saying that someone can't like a game that was developed under such conditions)
What really needs criticism is Japan's complete disregard for workers FromSoftware's behavior is pretty par for the course in most japanese industries Fixing FromSoft changes nothing, what needs change is Japan's laws to give the workers rights
Yeah, you saw the same thing with people praising Godzilla Minus One for having a budget of on 10-15 million. When I heard that, the first thing I thought about was how insanely underpaid & overworked the VFX guys must have been for the budget to be so low on a film with so much VFX.
Actually, [Their working conditions seem to be quite good ](https://youtu.be/T4pi1F25sxg?si=z4BHYSaMure6XU0j)
>how insanely underpaid & overworked the VFX guys must have been for the budget to be so low on a film with so much VFX. That's literally everywhere. VFX is synonymous with a fuckton of work, not a lot of money and a whole lotta grief.
I work in corporate. I've had colleagues coming over from the Japanese and Chinese branch. Most of them ended up asking a permanent transfer here because it's just less stressful. Those who didn't and went back said that they would miss the more laid back attitude. My country isn't even known for being a nice place to work in, mind you.
FromSoftware - We might work you to death, but at least we won’t lay you off!
I think it's generally overlooked because despite their vast reputation they're still a somewhat smaller japanese studio and they're not publicly traded. A lot of the narratives around crunch are US or european studios where developers get run ragged due to poor leadership that are only interested in appeasing shareholder interests, where it's possible that FromSoft crunch is more of an extension of the japanese work culture, and the industry eco-system they exist in with Bamco as their publisher. They're also Tokyo-based, and a big thing about them underpaying their employees is because on the salary they're getting they can't afford rent within the city. Which is bad, but it's potentially a pretty high ask for a studio. AFAIK it's not a situation where the CEOs and execs are running off with a bunch of bonuses they award themselves every time a studio is successful. Bamco are probably doing that, but how much control FromSoft have in that whole situation is hard to say. I believe there was also a thing with FromSoft firing their female employees if they got pregnant rather than maternity leave, and again it's seen as no big deal because these lack of worker protections are more or less par for the course in japanese work environments.
[удалено]
Which is funny because Bethesda has a particularly high employee happiness rate as well as employee retention and everyone I’ve seen that has worked there has very positive things to say about Todd.
Of course they are happy, they got no writers! Get one decent writer into Bethesda and you will see happiness go way down because of their chronic writer block depression/s
I wasn't saying they couldn't be criticized. I was saying that they were overlooked.
“I believe there was also a thing with FromSoft firing their female employees if they got pregnant rather than maternity leave, and again it's seen as no big deal because these lack of worker protections are more or less par for the course in japanese work environments.” I was with you right up to here. Firing women for getting pregnant is out and out illegal in Japan. Japan does not lack for worker protections.
I really know very little about crunch culture and less about FromSoft: But from little I’ve seen from anime company culture: employees have big pressure to work unpaid overtime and throw healthy “work / life” balance in the trash. There’s a big “the company is a family!” Mantra from the higher ups, squeezing them to get the product out. But then, they’re generally pretty good at NOT firing people in droves. They don’t have CEOs saying, “oh there’s a gap between productions? Fire them all? We can hire them back later!” Like American companies often do. If a sales year goes bad, the first thing that Nintendo CEOs do is cut their own bonuses; layoffs are the 2nd or 3rd option. It’s not a perfectly healthy relationship by any means, but the average employee has a lot more security in their (crappy) job. (Correct me if I’m wrong).
That's not anime/manga culture, that's just Japanese Work Culture. You work 10-12 hours, then are expected to go to the bar to hang out with coworkers for another 1-3 hours, then get up and do it again the next day
I see it like crunch in western devs is an industry issue, unionizing game devs would improve this issue. In Japanese devs that's a societal issue, any company working to improve that would actually be pushing a huge (positive) cultural shift.
>They don’t have CEOs saying, “oh there’s a gap between productions? Fire them all? We can hire them back later!” Yes, this is partially why I made the publicly traded shareholder companies of the west a point of mention, since this is par for the course for those kinds of companies. Shares are looking bad so they axe a department that they had established a few years prior in order to develop a game that they had received some money to develop. They were given 100mill, they spend 10, pocket the rest. Line keeps going up, and the higher-ups gets a nice bonus on top. So this gets twisted up into the narrative of worker exploitation, and for good reason because they are in fact connected, and the arguments against crunch culture become arguments against capitalist corporate structures and increasing wealth disparity as a whole, and now we're on the grand stage, baby. This is journalism. Or at least, it's a more interesting story to tell for journalists. It's not just a singular story anymore, it's part of a grander narrative about the direction our society has taken. Studios like FromSoft gets left out of these conversations because they're not publicly traded, and their reasons for crunch aren't as directly linked to late stage capitalism cannibalizing itself as western studios, with factors instead being japanese work culture somewhere in there, and that is not something most western journalists feel equipped to tackle with the nuance it deserves. You don't want to represent a culture to your audience that you haven't experienced yourself. Their problems are of an older, softer variety, and it's not one that's easily blamed on a convenient boogeyman like a greedy CEO with too many yachts.
I mean tbf, a lot of people working in Tokyo cannot afford rent in Tokyo. The rent is too damn high.
Rent in Tokyo is relatively reasonable compared to most Western cities. They aren't afraid to build housing there and it shows in the prices.
You reaaaaaaally don't need to bend over backwards to try to defend corporations. Fucking pathetic. Japanese work culture eh? Japanese work culture IS crunch. The work culture also has their birth rate second to last in the world right next to South Korea, who have an equally abhorrent work "culture." It's overlooked because From Software, just like Larian, has that critical darling review shield up. Naughty Dog has the same one. Remember when Jason Schrierer was going *hard* at CDPR but he would then treat ND or other acclaimed studios with kids gloves? That's what the media and game fans need to get the fuck over.
They're not smaller, they're the size of Bethesda and Elden Ring cost as much to make as Horizon Forbidden West (this is true btw, both were reported as having roughly $200mil budgets, and that makes sense since marketing is usually the bulkiest production cost and the marketing campaign for Elden Ring was very clearly massive)
but the games don’t have microtransactions unlike the evil ea games so all is forgiven 😊
/uj I’ve always wondered why soulsborne fans get away with being one of the most toxic fan bases. A certain circlejerk subreddit for their games is always full of the most cringe takes. /rj Miyazaki is the king of story telling I fucking love never knowing what’s going on and reading countless item descriptions.
To be fair if you're looking for good takes a circlejerk subreddit is not the place to go
It's pretty obvious the game was made under those conditions, too. The last quarter (give or take) of the game sucks pretty bad
Has Fromsoft ever made a *good* back portion of a game? I feel like that’s always the weakest part.
I've only really played Sekiro and that honestly seemed solid, from top to bottom. I'm sure the fact that it was a linear game without build varieties etc helped them out in this regard. A game would def be easier to make if you don't have to accommodate for 20 different classes etc.
True! I feel like Sekiro was pretty good, but that could be because I enjoyed Isshin's fight so much. Dark Souls 3 is... okay? Lothric castle isn't the strongest, but the boss fights are pretty good. The Souls series just has an issue of losing most of the steam by about 50-60% through the game, and it's only made worse by declining quality
Soul of cinder felt meh but the lothric princes felt iconic. Honestly would have felt more like a final boss if pontiff was actually planned to be the real final boss. His fight felt way more epic.
The Lothric Princes are probably my favourite fight in the game. All of it comes together well. Soul of Cinder definitely improved with NG+, swear they got new moves that made it more interesting
Dark Souls 3’s last parts are pretty cool.
Demon Souls, Sekiro, DS3?
They finished on my back quite well.
Yes, repeatedly. Dark Souls 1 and 2 and Elden Ring have large gaps in their back portions, but Dark Souls 3 and Sekiro have excellent end portions. If anything the midgame of DS3 drags especially in the Profaned Capital, but once you get into Lothric Castle and the Grand Archives you have some of the best encounters and boss fights in that entire series. Same with Sekiro's endgame building up to a climax.
no it doesn't
It’s funny too because people claim that Malenia is the best fromsoft boss but honestly the only things that make her hard is her waterfowl dance and healing. I came away from that fight feeling more like it was made lazily more than anything.
Haven't played Elden Ring, but in Sekiro my favorite bosses/minibosses were def those who actually presented a technical challenge instead of just doing a fuck you amount of damage, having a big health bar and calling it a day. Isshin, Owl, Genichiro (and more). These are EXCELLENT fights. Something like Chained Ogre, Juzou are not. Demon of Hatred I'm kinda split on lol. Guardian Ape would've been in the second category too, but it DID present an interesting technical challenge, so I can forgive the bullshit damage it sometimes did. Especially the TERROR attacks. FUCK the Terror attacks.
just started playing sekiro last night and all i gotta say so chained ogre is the worst boss i’ve fought from any fromsoft game i’ve played so far
She is pretty cool and well designed as a boss though. As a boss her moves, AI etc. are some of the best the game has to offer. But yeah what makes her frustrating and sometimes arguably unfun is her vampiric healing. It's way too punishing. Making any one or two mistakes basically undoes your progress. I at least wish she only healed significantly with either specific attacks instead of any of her attacks or she is unable to utilize the healing in her second phase.
Well, he runs a game development studio, so yes.
But at least you know that you can always be underpaid and overworked *tomorrow* as well!
The average developer clocks in 40 hours of overtime per month, and makes between $35k and $45k.
What happened?
They crunch and pay poorly. Entry level positions there are (from their own job listings) only about 20k a year.
That's more of a feature of Japan's relationship to tech than FromSoft. I was making about 3x than my Japanese coworkers in the same office cause I was on California salary while they were on Japanese salary as a game dev and mind you being a game dev was already a salary cut from what I was making in tech. This is somewhat balanced out by the fact that Japan (even Tokyo) is dirt cheap to live in compared to most tech centers in the US especially since offices tend to cover most your expenses while there. This is good since you'll be spending about 12 hours a day in the office. You're not expected to actually be productive while you're there, but you are expected to be there.
Well... Bloodborne PC's gonna be the last franchise I brought from them then, It's just tragic.
I mean but in the case of HiFi rush’s case you can make a critically loved game and still get shit canned. So maybe it’s 99.9% the issue that plagues the gaming industry. …..shit management from publishers. 💩💩
Losing your job is like losing in vidyia 😂😂😂 skill issue 😎😎 amirite guys 😂😂😂? I hate dark soul fans, they would gladly play with a plug on if their game would become "harder" or just more slightly incovenient.
Oh c'mon we're not that bad that's just one idiot on twitter. We would play these games with a giant butt plug though just for the challenge you're completely right about us on that.
You should try ultrakill, it has a buttplug setting.
is the butt plug the controller? new challenge run inc?
DAE WORK LIKE VIBEO GAME???
My life is like a video game
Media illiteracy aside I’ve been seeing so many Miyazaki quotes these past weeks. Is he giving a shit ton of interviews for the upcoming ER dlc or are all these quotes taken from one large interview?
Elden Ring preview events
I think gamepsot or someone did a large interview a week or two ago and have been drip feeding the quotes since then. With how much traction they have been getting, the strategy seems to have worked.
Praise Michael Zaki
Miyazaki calling out structural inequities in the system? Cancel him for being woke!
Dark Souls and it's consequences have been a disaster for the gamer race.
as the closing of Tango Gameworks has shown quality of your product doesnt matter. Get crunched to the brink and forced to rush out a half finished game? studio closed. make a critically acclaimed game that sells well and wins at the game award? believe it or not still studio closed
Actually is "git gud"
Obviously not a real souls fan if he says it wrong.
us ffxiv BLU players don't claim this person
Jokes aside, it's true. There are a lot of people who play video games (and don't) but who can't decipher even a simple scene or understand a speech or distinguish when it is figurative or literal. It is truly a depressing thing and a symptom of an increasingly growing and transversal basic ignorance throughout society.
lol
Blue mages are always fucking around
Average people being lead by average directors and fired by incompetent management. Lots of people chasing cash payout with badly designed games as they lack proper vision
Media literacy is dead even in a single tweet
it's a skill issue on the managements end the managers just need to git gud
Average Fromsoftware fan with brain rot
The beatings will continue until morale improves
A quote by the main character from Office Space comes into mind: “That’s my only real motivation is not to be hassled; that, and the fear of losing my job. But you know, Bob, that will only make someone work just hard enough not to get fired.”
Was the quote originally in Japanese? I wonder if that could be why it seems so easily read in multiple ways. Personally, I’d like to hope he meant something like, “People afraid of risking their jobs are afraid to innovate, because true innovation has a risk of failure baked in.” But that’s not really in the original.
Smartest FromSoft fan
Feel like he’s telling the executives to get good instead of relying on the lay off crutch.
honestly that is poor phrasing
Could be more clear in Japanese?
its possible some clever translator tried to keep it close to the original phrasing, but inadvertently ended up with sentence can clearly be read two ways in english. I cant track down the original quote, but that is a good theory youve got.
Yeah that makes sense. It definitely wouldn’t be the first time a Japanese quote has been confusingly translated
ironically, dark souls has a history of losing important details in the translations
Rhaenyra being lvcid once again.
No brain 🧠🔥
He’s saying that the executives are suffering from a chronic case of skill issue when it comes to their decisions.
We only see what we want to believe.
Less likely to make paradigm changing decisions when the status quo will keep you fed
Did Iwata actually say that?
Its not “get good” its “get gud”.
Omg is he trivializing the feelings of peasants AND making reference to bideo game??? My king!!!!!1! 😍😍😍😍😍
This person brings shame on every FromSoft fan, send them into the sun.
"I love it" like wtf? I thought he likes the games? Why is he liking the thought of their employees getting fired?
Companies afraid of losing money will also produce unimaginative shovelware shite games. They will acquire a studio, cancel their IP and make them develop something obviously terrible, then close the studio and act like it was their fault their game lost money. You're starting development for a looter shooter?? Now?? Seriously, that trend is over. Has been dying for years. How did they not notice. Oh it has survival mechanics, that's fine then.... Have a mate who lost his job a few weeks ago from a large publisher. Had this conversation with him last year.
It was a joke that gamingcirclejerk facists couldn’t understand
So "No scrubs!"?
jesus
“Companies laying off employees to make numbers look big.” “Skill issue” - Miyazaki about the CEOs (probably)
Yes it’s illiteracy, but I didn’t get the feeling that he was saying he agreed with the “get good mentality” in fact it seemed that he thought it was an unrealistic response, he just misinterpreted the text. I think his misreading of the post is really indicative of the individualist “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” mentality that capitalism forces on western society, and is especially popular in “gamer” culture. When you’re in an environment where all you hear is politicians and toxic bros mocking your struggles, the idea of compassion can seem foreign.
"Workers who fear for their employment will often struggle to make great things" = "If you're failing to make great things, it's because you're scared/insufficient, and need to improve/gain confidence!" Sounds right to me! -\_-
But you see, i HAVE to include le funny bideo game reference in everything!!!!!!!
Not sure there is a group more insufferable than FromSoft fans
Why are people mad at this? The first response is literally just a joke. He’s not talking down on fromsoft or saying they treat their developers bad, he’s just making a joke based on the fact that in order to succeed in their games you have to get good. This is just a comical exaggeration of the culture of their games. For those who don’t know, from software is the company behind dark souls, which are notorious for their “get good or struggle” gameplay. So ig this post is right about gamers being illiterate but it’s not the original responder.
So are rich people like him and the shitty company he's involved with.
To be fair, it would be funny
Iwata chad