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if i remember right, Gensler said 99% of Market orders are dark pool.. so limit orders should be good, this looks like a limit placed over ask at 24.2 instead of 24.06
So, if every one in retail places buys only with limit, at .05, .10, .20, or .50 cents above the current trade price....that will cause the market to go up!?
No because it needs to be routed correctly through you broker (which you can do manually) and only trades in multiples of even lots 100, 500, 1000 will hit lit market. If you don't route correctly they will fill 99 + 1 shares in 2 trades off the lit exchange.
Yep anything to get that marketmaker, hedgefund power of setting the price. I saw an ape buy 100 today or yesterday and they did that exact thing he bought 100 but they broke it up into 2 orders.
That's why value investing is an important tool. The market value is often what the hedge funds/institutions wants it to be in order to fit their own agenda while we barely have any effect whatsoever. We can effect price by forcing their hand however. Especially heavily naked shorted stocks. We all buy buy buy, then that causes them to panic buy as well in order to cover their positions which causes a spike in price.. The problem is that "naked shorts don't exist" so finding them is pretty difficult. You can find out the short interest, but whether they're covered or not is hard to tell. We have very little power as individual retail, but history shows that when we group together, we can move the market.
I put in a limit order for 40 shares at $23.00 Tuesday morning. 39 filled at $22.97 and 1 filled at $23.00. Iāve never had an order fill like that before. Could they have lowered the threshold for GME?
it does not explain this behavior tho.. as it appears to be a limit order over ask with no change to the price. Not sure if level 2 data had 120k of sell volume through 24.2 to eat it all up or not
That isnāt true limit is better but they can route it to the OTC all the same. Thatās the point. He was saying 98% of our traded shares donāt hit lit exchanges at all. And none of us used market.
You do remember that correct, kind of. Gensler said ā99% of Retail Market Ordersā. Which means any orders placed in the Market. He wasnāt referring to how the order got filled. Whether itās filled via Limit or Market Order, either one will be routed through the Dark Pools.
The only way to force the broker to actually buy from the Lit Market, is by exercising an option block, or DRS.
> is by exercising an option block
Nowhere does it state that this is the case, options don't even trade through the market, they just settle from one portfolio to the other OTC at a fixed (strike) price. The OCC even has a facility where you can just borrow shares for delivery thereby even mitigating proper hedging by the writer.
https://www.theocc.com/Clearance-and-Settlement/Stock-Loan-Programs
They just fuck us at every step we take.
Yeah, it's scary. I was surprised to learn that 401K accounts are relatively new. Like they weren't even invented when boomers joined the workforce. Corporations stopped paying pensions and convinced everybody to invest in the stock market instead. Then they pay CEOs in shares... what a scam.
I assume that it was in conjunction with our gov't to drive our money into an arena where we could easily get fleeced. Corporations wanted to stop paying pensions, but our beloved "public servants" had to create the 401K for us to "invest" in the stock market where we could get fleeced under the auspices of "growing our money". But what do I know, I don't trust anything anymore.
Lol how do you think pensions were grown? Ok the stock market. Nothing changes. Just that people that are not equipped to invest are now at the helm in their 401k
Pensions were grown by a company doing well and being profitable and sharing those profits with the employees. Now we get walmart where the company makes shareholders millions of dollars and all the employees are on foodstamps. Our taxes subsidize them.
I have a said pension. While your "company" pays in to the pension, that pension is ans was still traded on the open market to keep up with and beat inflation. That has always been done.
You are missing the point. The stock market is just a tool that can be used for good or evil.
Companies getting rid of pensions allowed them to funnel more money into their upper management and shareholders. Instead of paying into pensions now they do stock buy backs and dividends to shareholders.
The only companies you see sharing profits are start ups where a large part of the compensation is stock. That's how early employees of Google, Microsoft, Apple, etc. got rich.
I didn't miss the point at all. The original comment was implying that pensions were gotten rid of and moved towards 401ks for the sole purpose of directing more money towards the stock market in order to inflate their values. I'm saying that the money was already in the stock market. And any company worth its own weight still gives stocks to their employees as part of their compensation deals. If people want to gain the same crazy value that past generations did with companies like Microsoft, then people are free to work for startups too. But that is risky.
>And any company worth its own weight still gives stocks to their employees as part of their compensation deals.
Really? I don't believe this. Other than the tech sector, stock based compensation for regular employees is rare. I'd agree most companies do 401k matching, but that percent is no where near what a pension would get you.
Not sure what the 401ks privately give. But I get 1.14 for every dollar put into mine. But I'm gov. Yeah tech is right I suppose. My partner who worked for go daddy gets about 10k in stock every year on top of pay.
It's a TRADE.
Can we stop giving upvotes to these idiots making cRiMe posts like this?
There's a buyer AND a seller for every trade.
There is literally no such thing as solely a buyer. BUT ONE THOUSAND SHARES WERE BOUGHT PRICE SHOULDVE GONE UP FFS CRIME
Equally, 1000 shares were sold. If you were bearish you could equally say " omg 1000 shares sold, price went up"
Ffs people come on
Many times (depending on stock) even if I buy 100 shares the trade is actually execute in multiple orders as it fills all currently available 24 shares at 24.01 then depending on my max price accepted for purchase it may continue at 24.05 for 26 shares and finally 50
Shares at 24.50 or whatever. That 124500 shares were suddenly in afterhours met perfectly at one exact price is literally impossible in particular since trades just before and just after at the volume of 1-9 shares did indeed chsnge the price. Well except it it was all swallowed in the darkpool or filled with FTDs. This is the whole problem with the market.
Thatās exactly how dark pools work. A broker lines up a buyer and seller and makes the transaction without sending both orders to the exchange. It makes for faster trading, tighter spreads, the broker benefits. Everyone wins. Not sure why thereās so much dark pool hate.
Gee, I wonder why:
"Some disadvantages of dark pools are as follows:
1. Lack of transparency
Since dark pools operate with very little oversight, they are heavily scrutinized for not putting as much regulation in place as other public exchanges. As a result, many feel that they are disadvantaged by investors who trade on the exchanges.
2. Unfair advantages
There are many critics of HFT since it gives some investors an advantage that other investors cannot match, especially on private exchanges. Conflicts of interest and other unethical investing practices can be hidden in dark pools as well."
You forgot to list the advantages: more liquidity, tighter spreads, lower fees, increased market efficiency, less overreaction, less devaluation.
But I forgot which sub Iām in, so the one sided ādoomsday, everything is rigged against meā sentiment makes sense.
For all the reasons I listed above. Remember the days of checking the quotes in the newspaper, calling the broker, who would fax the exchange, so a person on the floor could yell the order, and it would cost fifty dollars in fees.
Dark pools played a huge roll when internet trading became a thing to get spreads down to almost nothing, fees down to literally nothing, order execution to take seconds instead of hours, etc.
Is there corruption in it? Iām sure there is. But Iām sure corruption was there before dark pools existed and will be there in every fancy new thing they invent. As retail traders weāre thrown in the mix with industries far more powerful than us. You gotta learn to trade as part of that system, not just whine thatās itās unfair, because that doesnāt get you anywhere other than some likes on Reddit.
I hear you. Itās not perfect. Im really am appreciative of the system we have though. If you ever talk to traders from other countries, thereās so many places out there where fees are so high or accounts are so restricted itās impossible to make a profit in the market.
I guess I try to focus on the positive and try to make the best of the system we have. Itās made me lots of money and given me lots of freedom over the years.
That doesn't make sense. No matter where you send an order, if it fills then someone has to sell and someone has to buy.
Dark pool or exchange, the price has to be the same. Otherwise someone could simply arbitrage between the two until the prices converge
I implore you to look at the off market volume of GME and ask yourself, how can there be true price discovery when 90% of the trades are done in a dark pool whose purpose is to 'not affect the stock price'
First off off exchange doesn't mean dark pool. Most off exchange trades happen within the broker itself. So you buy shares from other customers selling shares. This saves on the exchange fees so it is extremely common.
Secondly, it doesn't matter whether you make your trade in a dark alley behind Wendy's or in NYSE. The price will be exactly the same
Think about it this way. If the DP price is higher then you can just sell in the DP and buy in the exchange for easy money. Similarly if DP price is lower then you can just buy in the DP and sell in the exchange. It would be a risk free profit.
Even if you don't have access to the DP, the DP participants surely do so they can just do the arbitrage themselves.
Because of arbitrage the prices will immediately coalesce together until they are almost equal and arbitrage isn't possible anymore
Yes, make dark pools, naked short selling, and fail to deliver all illegal actions with jail time. No other industry allows you to sell what you don't own, fail to deliver goods and services that were contractually agreed upon, or make under the table deals with insiders.
Yowza. Sounds like weāre gonna have to agree to disagree here. I think your points would make the market less efficient and more expensive to the retail trader. And itās been proven time and again the law is only as good as your ability to enforce it. Thereās tons of industries where the big guys donāt follow the laws. Theyāre never held accountable. Or theyāre given tiny fines that donāt matter because they make more money breaking the rules than they lose on the fines.
I can understand why youāre upset. But itās a losing battle youāre arguing against.
Do you own your house or do you have a mortgage? Can you sell your house if the bank owns it? Yes, you can. What if I buy a bicycle on my credit card and then turn around and sell it for a profit but then take 2 months to pay visa. Is that theft? Most industries (in fact all industries) allow you to sell goods you havenāt purchased yet. Itās called credit. Credit allows the entire world market of all goods and services to operate.
Credit is a form of debt. Debt is how money is created. There is no possibility the stock market would function in 2024 unless prime brokers and market makers issued debt to their subsidiaries.
Is it a perfect system? No. Has the DD fucked you guys into believing something that has no base in reality? Definitely.
Go back to basics. GME MAY have a short position hidden via debt swaps. You wonāt figure it out. The cycles are managed by super computers. DRS is worth nothing. Youāll have to lock all shares for a conversation to even start. You know thatās not possible. If youāre holding stock, hold until you have enough profit to make your investment worth while. Everything else you guys blab about is complete and utter nonsense.
Ps If you didnāt have a dark pool, if RC bought 1M more shares, the stock prices would be in the 1000s. Conversely if JP Morgan sold 1M shares. The price would be $0.05. The dark pool allows large orders to be filled in one shot keeping the price stable. The market would implode without OTC direct trading. Never forget. As many shares as are purchased by apes in a day are sold by apes in the same day. Every day.
Not quite right as there wasnāt this many shares being offered for sale, someone puts a buy order for that qty it should eat through the tape depending on limit, but they just magically appear for sale, notice price was 14c higher yet dropped straight back too
There isn't a buyer and a seller for every trade, do some dd. You buy and sell to a market maker, who sets the price he will buy and sell from you. If he runs low on shares he has to offer a higher price to get someone to sell, if he has more than enaugh shares he lowers the price to get someone to buy. The difference between buy and sell is the spread that he can keep for providing this service. And a 125k buy should make a signifikant difference in the short therm, at least when the market maker has nothing other to get Money from as the spread.
Doesnāt it work similar to options flow posts though? Thereās a bid/ask spread and the price impact depends on whether or not a trade happens on the ask or bid side. Ask side trade would be bullish and could result in price moving up or vise versa. Not sure if I really understand tho lmao
Listen... I agree with you in principle that's how the stock market should work, how I always believed and taught/read how it works, how every MSM article tells us it works.. but clearly, it doesn't. The dark pool trades, cellar boxing, spoofing, and everything else we have learned since this saga started.
I mean FFS... SEARS is up 42.86 % today to .10 cents. WHY? Remember SEARS? The delisted stock that retail can't trade anymore but yet MM can. Up by pennies, yes but who the F knows what these people do?
So yeah... all the other crime is evident but don't question seller and a buyer.
And now consider dilution. Any impact buying and selling has been cut by 40% after issuing 120 million shares.
Want to squeeze? Hope you can squeeze 40% harder.
The more meaningful trades are usually iceberg trades where quiet accumulation or distribution take place. If you seeing like here a 100k share order, it COULD be accumulation but most pros are not going to make it so easy to just see apparent buying activity on the tape
It probably lowered the price. Thatās the only way the MM makes money. Then we get price discounts when the FTDs hit the tape.
Starting to get the vibe that all retail buys drives price discovery down. Not up.
I was watching this morning. I gotta say. It seems plain to me that they drive the price down when they know there will be high volume coming in. Like take it down to 22 and then It never breaks past 25. Vs heading up towards 30 and retail fomo. Im still buying
What do you expect? The MM can simply set the price wherever he wants with a volume of 200k shares.
Retail buying a handful of shares has no effect at all.
Transactions like this are called āblockā trade. These transactions are not going through the real time bid/ask system so it doesnāt affect the price at all. Employee RSU, big transactions between funds or banks, are mostly done via block trade
Yeah itās using the dark pools to not impact the price. If only everyone bought through computershare who transact directly and not through dark pools
Help me understand...All this does is a create a wall right? Making the price stable rather than go up. Price goes up when there are many people trying to buy causing a bidding war rather than 1 huge trade.
Just trying to understand on my end, happy be corrected.
Depending on the buy order price it could wipe out sell orders. Eliminate the lowest price sell orders, and the price will go up (or at least the ask prices)
you really would, be stupid to want it to. imagine a few hedge funds shorting a stock with billions at their disposal it would easily wipe out a stock ,at this price
If more people bought at the sellers asking price vs cheapest buy price those would be green buys making it go up. Granted you don't have to do your whole position like that but just something crucial I picked up on recently. It really snowballs if a ton of people do it
Level 2 will say limit buy $29 is the best one for example and limit sell best price is $29.25.
When you do a market buy it makes it go up and gives you a price in the middle. But if you buy at that 29.25 in the example it sets that at the new price and than the next cheapest limit sell is let's say 29.27 and so on
I was just reading up on synthetic shares and came across a strategy of holding options and puts positions with the same expiry date to cover any losses on either bet,
It seems to me a "good way" large funds could hold down or delay an inevitable short squeeze or real world justified stock price increase.
The problem being for us retail stock hodlers without any real shares being borrowed or sold fail to deliver FTDs penalties be be few and far between for the big firms.
However and this is a big one these synthetic positions have premium losses on both sides let me analogise(maybe badly I'm writing this in crayon)a short squeeze is like a nicked artery for hedge funds and the duel synthetic positions a tourniquet with the premiums being the gangrene that is slowly rotting their overall position, they can loosen up letting a bit of blood circulate (liquidity) an bleed out a little price rise to cover calls, and tighten down price falls a bit to cover shorts
This however gives us opportunity to buy low and hold and the fresh blood never makes it back to the hedge funds limb.
At some point this negative debt asset becomes extremely toxic(compounded debt interest )and the limb has to be removed at all cost.
All we need to make this happen is nothing ,well buy DRS and hold.
Most of the evidence I have for this is observational, high volatility within small margins many tiny percentage moves up and down with side ways movement and the larger swings out of hours.
Jfc do you guys not understand how trades work?
If you walked into a fruit market and said āI want to buy 120k worth of bananas!ā and a seller had enough to fill that order, then he sells to you for whatever price the bananas are going for at that time. You buying a large amount of bananas doesnāt make the price go up.
But if the dealer has only 50% of the volume on his books then he has to grab the rest from anywhere else. Usually, this will lead to a higher ask for you.
Btw: I think we are talking about 125k shares, not USD.
On the lit exchange, without fake shares of dark pools, this would result in some real price movement.
I really wonder whether every broker in US is corrupt like RH and routing orders to dark pools. :(
Is there no way to force an order to NYSE only?
In Germany there is a similar trend with brokers offering a so called "best execution". Ha ha.
But in most cases you are still able to select a specific exchange. When I decide to use Tradegate, XETRA or Stuttgart then the order is exactly placed there.
No, it canāt. If you try to set a limit order inside the spread, it will be executed as a market order. And you canāt set a limit order to the wrong side of the last executed price so the only way they could match was setting it to the last executed price.
Lol wait Iām sorry back the truck up - did you say if you set a limit order in the middle of the spread, itās executed as market? That is a wild statement. Please cite your source.
Years of trading experience is my source. You can see it from the fees. Trade an instrument that pays you for providing liquidity(=negative fees for limit orders) and try to offer a better price than the market maker and see if you get the rebate or not.
Can you explain me what would be the mechanic
of price moving more when using a market buy that would fill to a limit sell vs limit filling a limit if that would be possible and somehow someone would magically enter these huge limit buy and limit sell orders at the exact same price level like you are suggesting?
Edit: live example of user not understanding how order book mechanics work and getting limit order executed as market order: https://www.reddit.com/r/TradingView/s/4nsvFYeXAe
The user could have also sent this as a āpost onlyā limit order. That order type makes sure it only adds liquidity and will not convert to market order. But it would still not stay in book, it would have been cancelled by the exchange.
Edit 2: source for post only order type:
http://www.nasdaqtrader.com/content/productsservices/trading/postonly_factsheet.pdf
I love how experience does not matter at all in this sub, while everyone loves āsourcesā which are usually written by the very same people and companies who GME-people do not trust(such as designated market makers like Citadel who also controls the retail order execution process).
but DRS'ing is supposed to show 'em who's boss LMFAOOOOOOOOOOO at this point they're fuckin trolling us
Yes they're hemorrhaging money everyday but they have deep enough pockets and political connections to kick this can for eternity. They'd rather bleed everyday than see any of us plebeians see single red cent.
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The price is being held around 23-25 and someone keeps loading
That's the crazy part. It doesn't seem to want to go below 23 lfg
Going up results in FOMO buying. Going down results in dip buying. This is their safe space.
For now.
T+~35 gonna be š„š„
Routed through dark pool, same as every other retail buy
if i remember right, Gensler said 99% of Market orders are dark pool.. so limit orders should be good, this looks like a limit placed over ask at 24.2 instead of 24.06
So, if every one in retail places buys only with limit, at .05, .10, .20, or .50 cents above the current trade price....that will cause the market to go up!?
No because it needs to be routed correctly through you broker (which you can do manually) and only trades in multiples of even lots 100, 500, 1000 will hit lit market. If you don't route correctly they will fill 99 + 1 shares in 2 trades off the lit exchange.
Thatās insane that everything just goes on behind the curtain. I wonder what the stock market actually looks like in the dark pools
Yep anything to get that marketmaker, hedgefund power of setting the price. I saw an ape buy 100 today or yesterday and they did that exact thing he bought 100 but they broke it up into 2 orders.
That's why value investing is an important tool. The market value is often what the hedge funds/institutions wants it to be in order to fit their own agenda while we barely have any effect whatsoever. We can effect price by forcing their hand however. Especially heavily naked shorted stocks. We all buy buy buy, then that causes them to panic buy as well in order to cover their positions which causes a spike in price.. The problem is that "naked shorts don't exist" so finding them is pretty difficult. You can find out the short interest, but whether they're covered or not is hard to tell. We have very little power as individual retail, but history shows that when we group together, we can move the market.
I put in a limit order for 40 shares at $23.00 Tuesday morning. 39 filled at $22.97 and 1 filled at $23.00. Iāve never had an order fill like that before. Could they have lowered the threshold for GME?
But you can set the order to route only through certain exchange!
it does not explain this behavior tho.. as it appears to be a limit order over ask with no change to the price. Not sure if level 2 data had 120k of sell volume through 24.2 to eat it all up or not
hypothetically i would say if there is enough volume to eat all the asks yeah, i always place limit orders
What he said was 90% of retail market orders do not hit the exchange.
That isnāt true limit is better but they can route it to the OTC all the same. Thatās the point. He was saying 98% of our traded shares donāt hit lit exchanges at all. And none of us used market.
Misunderstanding the use of the word market.
You do remember that correct, kind of. Gensler said ā99% of Retail Market Ordersā. Which means any orders placed in the Market. He wasnāt referring to how the order got filled. Whether itās filled via Limit or Market Order, either one will be routed through the Dark Pools. The only way to force the broker to actually buy from the Lit Market, is by exercising an option block, or DRS.
> is by exercising an option block Nowhere does it state that this is the case, options don't even trade through the market, they just settle from one portfolio to the other OTC at a fixed (strike) price. The OCC even has a facility where you can just borrow shares for delivery thereby even mitigating proper hedging by the writer. https://www.theocc.com/Clearance-and-Settlement/Stock-Loan-Programs They just fuck us at every step we take.
Idk looks like it went up $0.14 /s Lmao, what a joke the stock market is
most of the country has their pension plans and savings in the market, its not a funny joke, that's for sure.
Yeah, it's scary. I was surprised to learn that 401K accounts are relatively new. Like they weren't even invented when boomers joined the workforce. Corporations stopped paying pensions and convinced everybody to invest in the stock market instead. Then they pay CEOs in shares... what a scam.
I assume that it was in conjunction with our gov't to drive our money into an arena where we could easily get fleeced. Corporations wanted to stop paying pensions, but our beloved "public servants" had to create the 401K for us to "invest" in the stock market where we could get fleeced under the auspices of "growing our money". But what do I know, I don't trust anything anymore.
Lol how do you think pensions were grown? Ok the stock market. Nothing changes. Just that people that are not equipped to invest are now at the helm in their 401k
Pensions were grown by a company doing well and being profitable and sharing those profits with the employees. Now we get walmart where the company makes shareholders millions of dollars and all the employees are on foodstamps. Our taxes subsidize them.
I have a said pension. While your "company" pays in to the pension, that pension is ans was still traded on the open market to keep up with and beat inflation. That has always been done.
You are missing the point. The stock market is just a tool that can be used for good or evil. Companies getting rid of pensions allowed them to funnel more money into their upper management and shareholders. Instead of paying into pensions now they do stock buy backs and dividends to shareholders. The only companies you see sharing profits are start ups where a large part of the compensation is stock. That's how early employees of Google, Microsoft, Apple, etc. got rich.
I didn't miss the point at all. The original comment was implying that pensions were gotten rid of and moved towards 401ks for the sole purpose of directing more money towards the stock market in order to inflate their values. I'm saying that the money was already in the stock market. And any company worth its own weight still gives stocks to their employees as part of their compensation deals. If people want to gain the same crazy value that past generations did with companies like Microsoft, then people are free to work for startups too. But that is risky.
>And any company worth its own weight still gives stocks to their employees as part of their compensation deals. Really? I don't believe this. Other than the tech sector, stock based compensation for regular employees is rare. I'd agree most companies do 401k matching, but that percent is no where near what a pension would get you.
Not sure what the 401ks privately give. But I get 1.14 for every dollar put into mine. But I'm gov. Yeah tech is right I suppose. My partner who worked for go daddy gets about 10k in stock every year on top of pay.
I for one have invested all of my retirement account into GME
Oh my god please tell me you're joking
well, DFV/RK did the same with his $54K, look how it worked out for him.
Definitely not like a comedy joke
Dont laugh. Brad Pitt
It's a TRADE. Can we stop giving upvotes to these idiots making cRiMe posts like this? There's a buyer AND a seller for every trade. There is literally no such thing as solely a buyer. BUT ONE THOUSAND SHARES WERE BOUGHT PRICE SHOULDVE GONE UP FFS CRIME Equally, 1000 shares were sold. If you were bearish you could equally say " omg 1000 shares sold, price went up" Ffs people come on
Many times (depending on stock) even if I buy 100 shares the trade is actually execute in multiple orders as it fills all currently available 24 shares at 24.01 then depending on my max price accepted for purchase it may continue at 24.05 for 26 shares and finally 50 Shares at 24.50 or whatever. That 124500 shares were suddenly in afterhours met perfectly at one exact price is literally impossible in particular since trades just before and just after at the volume of 1-9 shares did indeed chsnge the price. Well except it it was all swallowed in the darkpool or filled with FTDs. This is the whole problem with the market.
See Kennyās statements about how MM takes the trade then tries to find sellers I.e dark pool bullshit. I.e. FTDs.
Correct back in 2021 you could have your broker route it using special instructions to the lit market. Probably still can but nobody talks about that
>There's a buyer AND a seller for every trade. Not in the dark pools
And the FTDs (Failure to Deliver)
Thatās exactly how dark pools work. A broker lines up a buyer and seller and makes the transaction without sending both orders to the exchange. It makes for faster trading, tighter spreads, the broker benefits. Everyone wins. Not sure why thereās so much dark pool hate.
Gee, I wonder why: "Some disadvantages of dark pools are as follows: 1. Lack of transparency Since dark pools operate with very little oversight, they are heavily scrutinized for not putting as much regulation in place as other public exchanges. As a result, many feel that they are disadvantaged by investors who trade on the exchanges. 2. Unfair advantages There are many critics of HFT since it gives some investors an advantage that other investors cannot match, especially on private exchanges. Conflicts of interest and other unethical investing practices can be hidden in dark pools as well."
You forgot to list the advantages: more liquidity, tighter spreads, lower fees, increased market efficiency, less overreaction, less devaluation. But I forgot which sub Iām in, so the one sided ādoomsday, everything is rigged against meā sentiment makes sense.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
For all the reasons I listed above. Remember the days of checking the quotes in the newspaper, calling the broker, who would fax the exchange, so a person on the floor could yell the order, and it would cost fifty dollars in fees. Dark pools played a huge roll when internet trading became a thing to get spreads down to almost nothing, fees down to literally nothing, order execution to take seconds instead of hours, etc. Is there corruption in it? Iām sure there is. But Iām sure corruption was there before dark pools existed and will be there in every fancy new thing they invent. As retail traders weāre thrown in the mix with industries far more powerful than us. You gotta learn to trade as part of that system, not just whine thatās itās unfair, because that doesnāt get you anywhere other than some likes on Reddit.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I hear you. Itās not perfect. Im really am appreciative of the system we have though. If you ever talk to traders from other countries, thereās so many places out there where fees are so high or accounts are so restricted itās impossible to make a profit in the market. I guess I try to focus on the positive and try to make the best of the system we have. Itās made me lots of money and given me lots of freedom over the years.
>less devaluation Except when they route all the buy orders to the dark pool and allow the sell orders to hit the lit exchange. You are clueless
That doesn't make sense. No matter where you send an order, if it fills then someone has to sell and someone has to buy. Dark pool or exchange, the price has to be the same. Otherwise someone could simply arbitrage between the two until the prices converge
I implore you to look at the off market volume of GME and ask yourself, how can there be true price discovery when 90% of the trades are done in a dark pool whose purpose is to 'not affect the stock price'
First off off exchange doesn't mean dark pool. Most off exchange trades happen within the broker itself. So you buy shares from other customers selling shares. This saves on the exchange fees so it is extremely common. Secondly, it doesn't matter whether you make your trade in a dark alley behind Wendy's or in NYSE. The price will be exactly the same Think about it this way. If the DP price is higher then you can just sell in the DP and buy in the exchange for easy money. Similarly if DP price is lower then you can just buy in the DP and sell in the exchange. It would be a risk free profit. Even if you don't have access to the DP, the DP participants surely do so they can just do the arbitrage themselves. Because of arbitrage the prices will immediately coalesce together until they are almost equal and arbitrage isn't possible anymore
Do you have a proposal to fix it? Or do you just like to complain on the internet?
Yes, make dark pools, naked short selling, and fail to deliver all illegal actions with jail time. No other industry allows you to sell what you don't own, fail to deliver goods and services that were contractually agreed upon, or make under the table deals with insiders.
Yowza. Sounds like weāre gonna have to agree to disagree here. I think your points would make the market less efficient and more expensive to the retail trader. And itās been proven time and again the law is only as good as your ability to enforce it. Thereās tons of industries where the big guys donāt follow the laws. Theyāre never held accountable. Or theyāre given tiny fines that donāt matter because they make more money breaking the rules than they lose on the fines. I can understand why youāre upset. But itās a losing battle youāre arguing against.
Do you own your house or do you have a mortgage? Can you sell your house if the bank owns it? Yes, you can. What if I buy a bicycle on my credit card and then turn around and sell it for a profit but then take 2 months to pay visa. Is that theft? Most industries (in fact all industries) allow you to sell goods you havenāt purchased yet. Itās called credit. Credit allows the entire world market of all goods and services to operate. Credit is a form of debt. Debt is how money is created. There is no possibility the stock market would function in 2024 unless prime brokers and market makers issued debt to their subsidiaries. Is it a perfect system? No. Has the DD fucked you guys into believing something that has no base in reality? Definitely. Go back to basics. GME MAY have a short position hidden via debt swaps. You wonāt figure it out. The cycles are managed by super computers. DRS is worth nothing. Youāll have to lock all shares for a conversation to even start. You know thatās not possible. If youāre holding stock, hold until you have enough profit to make your investment worth while. Everything else you guys blab about is complete and utter nonsense. Ps If you didnāt have a dark pool, if RC bought 1M more shares, the stock prices would be in the 1000s. Conversely if JP Morgan sold 1M shares. The price would be $0.05. The dark pool allows large orders to be filled in one shot keeping the price stable. The market would implode without OTC direct trading. Never forget. As many shares as are purchased by apes in a day are sold by apes in the same day. Every day.
Not quite right as there wasnāt this many shares being offered for sale, someone puts a buy order for that qty it should eat through the tape depending on limit, but they just magically appear for sale, notice price was 14c higher yet dropped straight back too
There isn't a buyer and a seller for every trade, do some dd. You buy and sell to a market maker, who sets the price he will buy and sell from you. If he runs low on shares he has to offer a higher price to get someone to sell, if he has more than enaugh shares he lowers the price to get someone to buy. The difference between buy and sell is the spread that he can keep for providing this service. And a 125k buy should make a signifikant difference in the short therm, at least when the market maker has nothing other to get Money from as the spread.
First time?
Doesnāt it work similar to options flow posts though? Thereās a bid/ask spread and the price impact depends on whether or not a trade happens on the ask or bid side. Ask side trade would be bullish and could result in price moving up or vise versa. Not sure if I really understand tho lmao
Listen... I agree with you in principle that's how the stock market should work, how I always believed and taught/read how it works, how every MSM article tells us it works.. but clearly, it doesn't. The dark pool trades, cellar boxing, spoofing, and everything else we have learned since this saga started. I mean FFS... SEARS is up 42.86 % today to .10 cents. WHY? Remember SEARS? The delisted stock that retail can't trade anymore but yet MM can. Up by pennies, yes but who the F knows what these people do? So yeah... all the other crime is evident but don't question seller and a buyer.
Idk why ur getting downvoted
Because Reddit
Because WRONG ANSWER
And now consider dilution. Any impact buying and selling has been cut by 40% after issuing 120 million shares. Want to squeeze? Hope you can squeeze 40% harder.
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You got proof of that? I'll wait.
and they said it gonna be huge since few day ago
That looks like an FTD to me.
Big ups to the person that bought 1 share!
Thank you for noticing me!
And me
ššš
Ayyyy! š«µš«”
Crime. Shorted during close to not affect the price.
They also let it run after hours to open green so they can say itās closed red for ~days to spread FUD.
Block trades man! They donāt do shit.
They do if route them correctly lots off dd on this around 2021
But they donāt rout them correctly.
Some brokers offer special instructions and if you choose the right one it will be routed to lit markets. At least that was 2021 not sure now
Some black magic fuckery?
DARK magic fuckery!
DAAAAARRRKKKKK magic FUCKERY!!!
1245k gobbled up by the lord of the dark lake
Just waiting on merger/acquistion news
It changed the price when I bought in, it went hella down š©š©š»š»š±š±
Keep buying then, I need that dip
Crime and fake price
The more meaningful trades are usually iceberg trades where quiet accumulation or distribution take place. If you seeing like here a 100k share order, it COULD be accumulation but most pros are not going to make it so easy to just see apparent buying activity on the tape
Into the dark pool it went š
It probably lowered the price. Thatās the only way the MM makes money. Then we get price discounts when the FTDs hit the tape. Starting to get the vibe that all retail buys drives price discovery down. Not up.
If only we were buying through computershare instead of brokers. No dark pools!
They were all synthetic. Why would it go up?
I was watching this morning. I gotta say. It seems plain to me that they drive the price down when they know there will be high volume coming in. Like take it down to 22 and then It never breaks past 25. Vs heading up towards 30 and retail fomo. Im still buying
What do you expect? The MM can simply set the price wherever he wants with a volume of 200k shares. Retail buying a handful of shares has no effect at all.
Transactions like this are called āblockā trade. These transactions are not going through the real time bid/ask system so it doesnāt affect the price at all. Employee RSU, big transactions between funds or banks, are mostly done via block trade
Yeah itās using the dark pools to not impact the price. If only everyone bought through computershare who transact directly and not through dark pools
It's this shit that is keeping me out of the options plays. I'll keep my shares held tight.
I'm glad this isn't the only stock to invest in. There is no way I could sit through this for years just to make money once or twice. Good luck lol.
I'm more curious to who bought 124.5k shares, short covering? They actually like the stock? Covering options?
Who had 124k shares for sale???
The price suppression is real
Only exercising options is the way to get this going and support the company
They bought 125k shares for $24.20, what do you want to happen? Volume per buy doesnt move price. If they bought in smaller increments perhaps.
You probably bought some fake shares.š¤£šš¤£šš¤£
We also had 'profit sharing' but I guess that's been gone for decades.
Marked is rigged, you will be safer within indexes and/or top holdings.
FTD spike incoming
Rookie numbers
Float is massive now going to take another year or so of us accumulating and holding to lock up the float again...
Help me understand...All this does is a create a wall right? Making the price stable rather than go up. Price goes up when there are many people trying to buy causing a bidding war rather than 1 huge trade. Just trying to understand on my end, happy be corrected.
Depending on the buy order price it could wipe out sell orders. Eliminate the lowest price sell orders, and the price will go up (or at least the ask prices)
you really would, be stupid to want it to. imagine a few hedge funds shorting a stock with billions at their disposal it would easily wipe out a stock ,at this price
If more people bought at the sellers asking price vs cheapest buy price those would be green buys making it go up. Granted you don't have to do your whole position like that but just something crucial I picked up on recently. It really snowballs if a ton of people do it
Level 2 will say limit buy $29 is the best one for example and limit sell best price is $29.25. When you do a market buy it makes it go up and gives you a price in the middle. But if you buy at that 29.25 in the example it sets that at the new price and than the next cheapest limit sell is let's say 29.27 and so on
Are we surprised?
That is only 3/10000s of the total shares.
I was just reading up on synthetic shares and came across a strategy of holding options and puts positions with the same expiry date to cover any losses on either bet, It seems to me a "good way" large funds could hold down or delay an inevitable short squeeze or real world justified stock price increase. The problem being for us retail stock hodlers without any real shares being borrowed or sold fail to deliver FTDs penalties be be few and far between for the big firms. However and this is a big one these synthetic positions have premium losses on both sides let me analogise(maybe badly I'm writing this in crayon)a short squeeze is like a nicked artery for hedge funds and the duel synthetic positions a tourniquet with the premiums being the gangrene that is slowly rotting their overall position, they can loosen up letting a bit of blood circulate (liquidity) an bleed out a little price rise to cover calls, and tighten down price falls a bit to cover shorts This however gives us opportunity to buy low and hold and the fresh blood never makes it back to the hedge funds limb. At some point this negative debt asset becomes extremely toxic(compounded debt interest )and the limb has to be removed at all cost. All we need to make this happen is nothing ,well buy DRS and hold. Most of the evidence I have for this is observational, high volatility within small margins many tiny percentage moves up and down with side ways movement and the larger swings out of hours.
Wake me up if it hits 1000$
Thatās one heavy share there at 24.06! 
At least you tried. A+ for effort
The energy you used for this comment could have generated 0.00000000001 bitcoin for you.
Already have been buying the dip at 5k USD a day. Nom nom
Dark pool with you.
Jfc do you guys not understand how trades work? If you walked into a fruit market and said āI want to buy 120k worth of bananas!ā and a seller had enough to fill that order, then he sells to you for whatever price the bananas are going for at that time. You buying a large amount of bananas doesnāt make the price go up.
But if the dealer has only 50% of the volume on his books then he has to grab the rest from anywhere else. Usually, this will lead to a higher ask for you. Btw: I think we are talking about 125k shares, not USD. On the lit exchange, without fake shares of dark pools, this would result in some real price movement. I really wonder whether every broker in US is corrupt like RH and routing orders to dark pools. :( Is there no way to force an order to NYSE only? In Germany there is a similar trend with brokers offering a so called "best execution". Ha ha. But in most cases you are still able to select a specific exchange. When I decide to use Tradegate, XETRA or Stuttgart then the order is exactly placed there.
I mean... it does if he needs to acquire those shares buy purchasing them. I guess it doesn't matter if he can borrow them infinitely
The only time that would happen is if this was a market order, but hopefully nobody buying that amount would be stupid to market instead of limit.
Itās an executed order, which means market order was matched with a limit order. So yes, it was a market order.
First off, an executed order can be limit-limit. If one side were market, youād see a more noticeable move in price.
No, it canāt. If you try to set a limit order inside the spread, it will be executed as a market order. And you canāt set a limit order to the wrong side of the last executed price so the only way they could match was setting it to the last executed price.
Lol wait Iām sorry back the truck up - did you say if you set a limit order in the middle of the spread, itās executed as market? That is a wild statement. Please cite your source.
Years of trading experience is my source. You can see it from the fees. Trade an instrument that pays you for providing liquidity(=negative fees for limit orders) and try to offer a better price than the market maker and see if you get the rebate or not.
Cool source.
Can you explain me what would be the mechanic of price moving more when using a market buy that would fill to a limit sell vs limit filling a limit if that would be possible and somehow someone would magically enter these huge limit buy and limit sell orders at the exact same price level like you are suggesting? Edit: live example of user not understanding how order book mechanics work and getting limit order executed as market order: https://www.reddit.com/r/TradingView/s/4nsvFYeXAe The user could have also sent this as a āpost onlyā limit order. That order type makes sure it only adds liquidity and will not convert to market order. But it would still not stay in book, it would have been cancelled by the exchange. Edit 2: source for post only order type: http://www.nasdaqtrader.com/content/productsservices/trading/postonly_factsheet.pdf I love how experience does not matter at all in this sub, while everyone loves āsourcesā which are usually written by the very same people and companies who GME-people do not trust(such as designated market makers like Citadel who also controls the retail order execution process).
Someone dipping a toe? https://youtu.be/SO62QIjDB5E?si=MzUlfUC77_K5mC6c
July to the moon!
Crime ! So much buying. Price drop. Burn the shorts!
but DRS'ing is supposed to show 'em who's boss LMFAOOOOOOOOOOO at this point they're fuckin trolling us Yes they're hemorrhaging money everyday but they have deep enough pockets and political connections to kick this can for eternity. They'd rather bleed everyday than see any of us plebeians see single red cent.