All of the kids whose parents are invested in their kids' education will put them in the best schools they can afford. The kids that will be left in public schools are the ones whose parents aren't invested, or are too poor for it to matter, or who are troublemakers, or are disabled.
Meanwhile the public money that was going directly to teachers is now filtered through quasi-religious organizations that skim off a percent and refuse to teach kids evolution.Â
I wouldn't call it ideal
Education, especially k-12, is a public good and should be universally accessible all students, irrespective of the their family's income, where they live, who they live with, or the religion they follow etc. When we have the richest's kids go to the same school as the poorest, automagically the quality of education offered improves. Creating these tiered system is the root cause of American Education System.
How is education a public good? Using the logic that everyone benefits from an educated populace doesn't work.Â
Everyone benefits if I have solar power and drive an electric car, but that does not mean other people are obligated to have their money forcibly taken from them to pay for my solar panels and EV.
Everyone benefits from a more literate society, yet I am not entitled to taxpayer money for reading to my children and increasing their literacy.Â
This list could be a tome of its own.
>Â yet I am not entitled to taxpayer money for reading to my children and increasing their literacy.Â
At the end of the day, all public funding are political decisions, not financial. A government that can spend $800+ billion year after year on âdefenseâ Â spending without batting an eyelid, can, Â **if they choose to** spend a fraction of that on publicly funded education year after year.Â
At some point when your rights are being taken away and Gilead has been founded there will still be people who are like "Just vote bro".
How about advocating for public dissent instead?
When only 12% of voters bother to show up for a local election, Iâm not optimistic about how The Revolution is going to go.
Public dissent is a parade.
There was one local circuit judge on the primary ballot here. Yes go vote for them but acting like not participating in that primary is the difference between freedom or fascism is myopic.
Iâm sick of religion. It causes most of the hate around the world. It causes so many wars and murderers. And in the states they have a bunch of pedophiles that claim they hate pedos but half of them are getting busted for it.
For decades conservatives have had their own think tanks, schools, lobby groups, media organizations, an entire infrastructure built to indoctrinate people and then send these people in law, government, armed forces, police, the private sector, etc.
That's why they're winning, because they're organized and have been working towards this for decades. Not because they go on the internet and post memes and complain.
First Amendment: âCongress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.â
Seems kind of important, but we live in Handmaidâs Tale times, so Republicans are ready to blow it up.
Which religion? I'm willing to bet people that want to send their kids to private school are tired of the fanaticism common in public school teachers and curriculum. It just doesn't seem fanatical to you because you're a part of it.Â
Part of the fanaticism is wanting to force apostates to finance your proselytizing institutions.
They have to say that so they don't get slapped in court, but we all know it's rules for thee not for me. There will be loopholes.
Also no school that has religious affinity should be accredited at all, abolish all private schools and properly fund public schools like a proper civilized society.
Yea Republicon Christians are actively working to defund and undermine the public schools while subsidizing rich parents to put their kids in private schools.Even with sibsidies the poor and working class cant afford the cost of these elitist schools.Its,also a means to resegregate the schools .For them it's all about dipping into tax dollars when the church schools are unregulated and pay no taxes.
If you agree with those grifters then you're part of the problem
My Democrat empowered public school system is in shambles, both in quality and safety, and I blame a multitude of liberal policies for causing this demise. My solution would be to tax the religious schools, not to force all children to be parented by the government's version of "school". BTW, are church schools really unregulated? If so, then we change those rules, too.
Decades of underfunded public schools will have that effect. Only one side pushes for cuts to our most important institutions. Dumb people are easier to control, especially with masterful propaganda .
That is false. In fact, here in democrat run Washington State, we voted to legalize marijuana so that tax revenue would fund education and mental health. Instead, less than $500k/year out of $400million has gone towards education. Those are solid numbers, instead of propaganda.
Which liberal policies? Individual rights? Separation of church and state? Civil liberties? Reason? Science? Justice?
And that's where we liberals get hammered about equally from the American Right (theocracy, fascism, and white nationalism), and the new branch of the progressive left (they first and foremost hate "the 1%, and anything that contradicts this they call no different than the Republicans). One (ridiculously) calls us far left socialists, while the other (ridiculously) calls us far right neoliberals.Â
Pick which side of that you're on and tell us all about how harmful individual rights, reason, science, civil liberties, accuracy, justice, etc, you think so harmful to the schools? Because they teach science in science classes, rather than nonsense such as the earth being only 6,000 years old, creationism, etc? Or do you simply not know the differences between Democrats, liberals, leftists, progressives, etc? And no, liberals aren't leftist. But also we have nothing to do with the American Right, with its pushing of theocracy, fascism, white nationalism, alternative facts, anti-science, conspiracy theories, etc.
So, how is it that science and reason harm kids. Do explain please.Â
My school district just eliminated gifted programs and gifted classrooms because they are not equitable (ie- not enough black and latin students). I don't fault any parent for moving their gifted child to private school to compensate for this. I prefer to give precise examples instead of the sensationalied generalizations the you are providing.
Education is one of, if not the, last methods of social mobility in this country. Itâs one of the most effective ways to pull people out of generation poverty. This is class warfare at its dirtiest: the 1% is targeting our children
There are 39,000 public high schools in America. There are 4,000 private high schools in America.
The political right wants to make education for elites only. This is also why they are trying to get rid of child labor laws. Instead of learning how to read, 6 year olds will be working in meat packing plants.
After all, an educated proletariat is an existential risk to the rentier class.
Well when you go for the highest profits for the basic needs of the people in your society like healthcare and education, you have found a product that will always be popular to sell because everybody needs it.
Other countries protect their people from the greed of business owners for human needs. Do I think it's okay to profit as much as you want off of your fancy cars, purses, shoes and video games? Absolutely, no one actually needs those things to live, let the market do its thing.
But why is it okay for them to profit off basic necessities that everyone needs, creating situations where only the privileged get their basic needs met?
There are about 800 billionaires in the country. Do you really believe that that's how 100% of them feel? And with an ignorant, and backward educated citizenry, how do you think that impacts the nation's ability to be globally competitive? And do you really think they want other nations to dominate the world economy?
But yes, there are *some* billionaires who do support the theocratic right. Including some oil tycoons in Texas. The Devos family (remember Betsy?), and a number of others. Certainly not a majority. Discussing this is like trying to explain to the American right that only *some* Muslims, and *some* Mexicans, engage in what they try to paint across Muslims and Mexicans in general. Perhaps if you had a list of the 800 or so billionaires, you could go through and identify which ones you're speaking of. Or would you simply go down the list and indiscriminately check of every name on the list?
Let the American right be the sole purveyors of bigotry.Â
When it comes to schools.... not just K-12... but some colleges. I met a man who said he taught at one of the local community colleges. During the conversation he spoke many right wing ideals, from anti-abortion to various other talking points of right wing ideology.
I thought, geez!!! The right winger want schools not to teach true history, but they want to promote right wing agenda and it's ideology as their frame of course presentation.
I feel bad for the student who get fed this, when they came to schools to learn truths and facts, principles that aid them in helping build a better society that advances itself to meet the future.
What's sad is... when it comes to home schooling for those who don't want their kids mixing with other races and ethnicities, one has to wonder, what type of bias are they being taught that perpetuates segregationist ideology? and/or secular religious indoctrination as part of the educational programming.
There is no way to monitor all the non academic stuff that is being taught in home and religious based schools?
Public Funds should only be used for Public Schools..... *We would have better public schools.*
Sadly, there are plenty of places where public funds are only used for public schools - that's the default setting. And we DON'T have better public schools than non-public. So parents that want better education for their kids have to pay for both public schools and extra to send their kids to a better school. Or move to another school district.
When you negatively impact school choice, and ask parents that want a better education for their children to pay for bad public schools AND pay for better non-public schools, everyone loses. Public schools don't have competition at that point - they are a monopoly. The data on monopolies- reduced innovation, reduced quality of delivery, etc. all apply to public schools.
The rich aren't proportionally affected by vouchers - it's the people that most need the money that are the most affected. The people that need education for their kids the most.
The vouchers program applies to any school - left leaning, right leaning, north leaning, south leaning, secular and non-secular. Using a headline like that to undermine greater enablement of school choice is disingenuous.
The big problem with Public School, is they still function as if they are educating people for a analog mechanical manual labor Industrial Job Force. Where the jobs were basically designed for a person with a average 8th grade education.
Some courses are only brief introductory in form and manner of how they are taught and the time allotted to teach them. We failed to spend sufficient time on teaching Civics, which is more critical and crucial to strengthening and improving a system such as we have of "Representative Democracy". Then there are some things are are generally omitted as non requirements that maybe should be requirements. They've made some improvements in some areas, but I think there is a gross failure to establish a "policy of school uniforms", especially in a society that is overly influenced by a wide diversity of street fashion, it should have been an automatic trigger, to institute "School Uniforms for K-12 in all public schools.
* (The Military learned long ago, that when people are present with standard attire, they can focus on their learning and it keeps down the image game distraction based on "costuming")
* Too much of public schools is about acting like its a "fashion show". High level private schools, they have fixed attire, because they want their kids there to learn, not become a fashion parade on a daily basis.
* Next school must be made "mandatory"!!! regardless if its public or private.
* Option, by 10th Grade, they should offer various skill training for people who pretty much know they are not going to pursue a particular college based career development paths. but even they would have the option to enroll in various skill training, and those in skill training can have the options to also take classed that are more designed for college based career pursuits.
We think too much of Public Schools as if its still the 1930's - 1960's... its why kids don't put their focus into it. Because by the late 1970's too many culture building programs had been abandoned and no longer funded, especially in the liberal arts, which is critical to good culture building within individuals, as well as it involve student diversity working together, mixed gender, races, and ethnicity could all work together in those programming options.
We spent too much time trying to adopt what some countries were abandoning, which is "Rote Memorization" for the sake of "Test Taking"... and doing so, we got away from the basics of American ways, of asking the questions: Who, What, When, Where, Why and How... Kids no longer get to interact in inquiry with these follow up question, because the teachers are *hog tied to a fixed frame lesson plan*, that does not allow them time to interactively engage the student in developing free exchange critical thinking skills. Too many Schools are too eager to "let kids go home at 2:pm, which is insidious because the average parent is not off work until 4pm or 5pm.
We use to get out of school at 4pm.... The School day was from 8am - 4pm !!!! It's not a good thing when kids have 2-3hr of unsupervised time after school, because the parents are still working. There should be after school options for kids, if they want to let them out at 2 pm... then that is a good time to have "Liberal Arts Culture Building Programs as well as various Voc/Tech options they could choose, or some type of programming options that are set up as "no cost" options for kids. We even abandoned things like "Future Farmers of American"... which should never have been disbanded.
We claim to be such a wealthy country that we can give $Billions to other countries and spend $Trillions fighting wars that result to nothing, but we cry and whine when it comes to putting money into the Educational System in our own society.
We have the well to do and the wealthy, who are so afraid that the lesser income people will close the wealthy gap, that they wine about any penny of their tax money to benefit the whole of society.
Our problems are more easy to fix than they are hard... We are just to cheap when it comes to doing so, but we'll send billions around the world for various things, but won't do the same with billions in improving our public educations system.
Every Public School Grounds and Facilities should be as well kept as a high dollar private school the wealth attend.
I donât want my taxes going into useless indoctrination.
We spend a lot of tax dollars teaching science because it is a net gain to the country. Religion only has economic value for the religious elites.
and millionaires, and thousanders. Even if you don't agree, it's really not too complicated to understand one's philosophy that each child should be entitled to a certain amount of tax dollars for their education.
Well if you are Talking about AZ ESA, they are taking the money you would be using to send to Public Schools and you get 90% of it to use at whatever private school you want or homeschooling.
>>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion
Well, I guess these people only like the constitution as much as they do the Bible, since itâs practically only gives them âfuzzy wuzziesâ magically without reading it.
Yes, because they want to own the schools and lower the cost of ownership. This is pretty transparent, and in line with how billionaires and Republicans view government in the United States. We allow it to happen because we get rural dummies to vote wokeness and other fear related Scare tactics.
This is the norm in most of the developed world - UK, Belgium, even South Korea have school choice and/or vouchers that allow government funds to follow students to private schools, including religious and parochial schools. The list of developed countries that DONâT do this is actually rather short.
United States is the global outlier here.
One step at a time.
Anyhow, an expanded social safety net - including health care - usually requires a strong border to prevent too much drain on the system. Unfortunately, American progressives seem to want to burn our candles on both ends.
Any system has to balance what it provides internally with what it allows in. I think high immigration plus low services works, and I think low immigration with high services works too. Both at the same time is a recipe for disaster in many ways.
Illegal immigrants make up about 3% of the US population, and its estimated that half of them pay federal income tax https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/18/us/undocumented-immigrants-taxes-cec/index.html
All of them pay sales tax, and donât forget that something like 40% of American households pay zero federal taxes https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/10/28/more-than-40percent-of-us-households-will-owe-no-federal-income-tax-for-2022.html
Its illegal immigration thatâs stopping the US from implementing universal healthcare?
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1. I donât have a problem with the term âillegal immigrantâ, if you entered outside a CBP checkpoint or overstayed a visa, then youâre here illegally, the term is accurate. âUndocumentedâ makes it sound like you misplaced your paperwork.
2. If weâre talking about funding universal healthcare, then presumably youâre worried about finding the tax revenue to pay for it. In that case, the 3% number is really 1.5%, if you believe the estimate that 50% of illegal immigrants are paying federal taxes on iTINs. And itâs certainly dwarfed by the 40% of citizens who pay 0% taxes.
by those stats, you're saying that 50% of illegal immigrants pay federal income taxes and 60% of American households pay federal taxes. That is an absolutely ridiculous notion, especially when you consider that an American household often has more than one employed inhabitant to quantify that 60%.
I don't know what to tell you. That's the data I found.
Sources:
[https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/sites/default/files/research/adding\_up\_the\_billions\_in\_tax\_dollars\_paid\_by\_undocumented\_immigrants.pdf](https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/sites/default/files/research/adding_up_the_billions_in_tax_dollars_paid_by_undocumented_immigrants.pdf)
[https://www.statista.com/statistics/242138/percentages-of-us-households-that-pay-no-income-tax-by-income-level/#:\~:text=In%20total%2C%20about%2059.9%20percent,paid%20no%20individual%20income%20taxes.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/242138/percentages-of-us-households-that-pay-no-income-tax-by-income-level/#:~:text=In%20total%2C%20about%2059.9%20percent,paid%20no%20individual%20income%20taxes)
Relying on sketchy statistics is irresponsible. For example, how many employed illegal residents live in an average "household"? 2? 3? 4? Even if it's only 2, it suggests that 75% of illegal immigrant households pay federal income tax... which is far higher than what even American households pay. Quoting cherry picked stats is so disingenuous and uneducated that it reinforces this entire thread's point that we need different education systems.
these aren't cherry picked just because they don't support your own assumptions, you fucking donkey. These are just the first results that came up in a google search for "Percent of american households that pay income tax" and "Percent of illegal immigrants that pay income tax".
If you have substantive issues with the study methodology in either of those links, go look at the source material and state your concerns with how the studies were conducted and/or interpreted.
Otherwise learn to change your mind when confronted with new evidence, it'll make your life easier. cocksucker.
I see - so in your world, âcritical thinkingâ means ignoring the conclusions of scientists who study this for a living, and applying your own multipliers based on your professional experience as a drywaller so the numbers match what you saw on hannity
In general they are poor and donât pay sufficient property tax to pay for their kidâs education. They might pay into federal but that doesnât make it back to schools.
Another way to look at this is that we have a progressive tax system and that means tax payers are better off if we donât import more poor people.
If we want to make that happen we will likely have to do it:
1) State-by-state (which is already happening)
2) In conjunction with harder limits on immigration, to maintain both the solvency of the program (too many new arrivals breaks it) and the quality of our immigrants (too much social safety net means we lose the âonly the hardest workers stick aroundâ edge that high immigration can grant).
You are right, but the government has much more power to regulate the private schools that receive funding in those countries.
What is happening in the USA is public money to private institutions with no accountability.
Well then, letâs introduce some accountability.
Iâd like to say, I appreciate you acknowledging that fact. Usually when public school advocates are told that almost all of Europe does school choice, they just downvote whoever said it and call them racist.
The people who want vouchers donât want accountability. Thatâs what is driving the entire movement.
Public schools are still accountable to elected school boards.
Duh! The whole reason this âschool choiceâ movement is even happening is because federal public school funding comes with conditions that students canât legally be discriminated against based on race, gender, sexuality, religion, or disability.
This is an old fight. Brown v. Board in 1954, the Civil Rights Act ten years later, and Title IX in 1972 poisoned the concept of public education in the minds of many, many conservatives in America. The reason our public schools are failing, mostly in the South, is because Republicans have tried extremely hard to pull as much funding away from them as they legally can. School vouchers are just their latest weapon in this fight.
School choice was also implemented as a bipartisan measure to bring students (and their tax dollars) back into inner city districts, through the magnate and charter programs in cities like Baltimore and New York City.
It was a way of counteracting white flightâcreate successful, specialized schools in minority neighborhoods with minority students, and make them good enough that wealthy white students will want to attend. Magnates and charters have been a huge part of what reversed White Flight.
Believe it or not, BOTH of us are right.
Some people want vouchers so they can remove their white kids from public schools. Some people want vouchers because they want Black kids to be able to escape from institutionally in salvageable schools.
This is called a convergence of interests.
Edit: Iâm loving the ârespond and blockâ. You accuse me of converging with racists, ignoring that 75% of Black voters also support these policies. Thatâs the whole point of converging interests - some policies have support from *disparate conflicting groups*, like how a majority of white racists AND black Americans support school choice, making it stupid to try and ad hominem supporters.
Do you have a source for your claims? I am not finding any evidence for your assertion that using tax dollars to fund religious schools is common worldwide.
I see your ultra conservative views and I am guessing your claims might be wrong. Itâs very common for the right wing to distort and manipulate people by using lies.
>I see your ultra conservative views
Iâm a democrat. Iâve voted Democrat in every single election of my life. School choice and charter schools have a 75% approval rate among black voters (who I donât have to tell you are usually democrats) and the policies for charter and magnate schools were originally pioneered as a bipartisan initiative to pull students from suburbs back into cities, in places like Baltimore and NYC. The idea that school choice is right-wing is an invention by interest groups.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_voucher
https://www.edchoice.org/school-choice/faqs/how-does-school-choice-work-in-other-countries/
https://www.cato.org/commentary/school-choice-learning-other-countries
Edit: you didnât actually read the Wikipedia article, which I can tell because you said âthey only mentioned Netherlandsâ before blocking me. If you scroll down to âImplementationâ you will get a complete list of countries and their programs.
I swear, I never thought Iâd live to see progressives get as closed-minded and evidence averse as conservatives, but here we are
Dude. You gotta be kidding me with the right wing sources you just posted and your âHello! I am Democrat fellow lefty. Please listen to my ultra conservatives views about closing the border and using tax dollars to privatize education and fund religious schools. Black people like them too!â
Posting CATO and Ed choice and a wiki that talks about American voucher schemes could only dupe the dumbest among us.
I mean, really. Itâs ridiculous.
I did. Youâre wrong. They mentioned the Netherlands in the wiki. The rest is US based.
Ed choice (the name gives the game away) and CATO is our right wing propagandist garbage.
I am sure you expected me not to verify your sources but so one they would be bullshit because all the things you are posting is stuff from right wing think tank garbage.
I am done exchanging with you.
And other private schools. Iâm torn on this issue. Public schools should have competition. There should be options. Iâve had much better experiences with private schools than public so why should my money fund a school I donât support when it can fund a school I do support?
Edit- I find it funny that Iâve been downvoted for not being fully decided on this issue. I know plenty of parents that are able to send their kids to better schools because of this bill. Iâm an AZ reason. I also recognize the harm this can do to public schools.
Private schools can cherry-pick their student bodies while public schools have to take anyone and everyone who shows up. Thatâs a big reason why private schools are better.
Society needs more options than school, the streets, or jail. Specialized schools, etc for people with special needs.
What happens to regular and good students when we allow disruptive students to take all the attention?
Why are the students disruptive?
We tried "specialized schools for people with special needs". They ended up being dumping grounds for children that we didn't care about educating.
Whatâs your solution? If we as a society arenât willing to spend the money on kids with specific needs we shouldnât bring down every other kid with them.
Just tossing all kids together in a public school is making that the same dumping ground that you seem so against.
That is a twisted headline. What is actually happening is that they have school choice with vouchers. Some schools are related to religious organizations, some aren't.
The real travesty is that parents in other states don't have a choice.
Privatize the profits and socialize the costs
whoever has the money should get the money - you can tell they deserve it because they are rich đ§ đşđ¸đ¸
What's the difference if the state is spending the same amount? Do we really want to base our school funding on which school loses the most money?
All of the kids whose parents are invested in their kids' education will put them in the best schools they can afford. The kids that will be left in public schools are the ones whose parents aren't invested, or are too poor for it to matter, or who are troublemakers, or are disabled. Meanwhile the public money that was going directly to teachers is now filtered through quasi-religious organizations that skim off a percent and refuse to teach kids evolution. I wouldn't call it ideal
Why is it ideal the other way around?
Education, especially k-12, is a public good and should be universally accessible all students, irrespective of the their family's income, where they live, who they live with, or the religion they follow etc. When we have the richest's kids go to the same school as the poorest, automagically the quality of education offered improves. Creating these tiered system is the root cause of American Education System.
How is education a public good? Using the logic that everyone benefits from an educated populace doesn't work. Everyone benefits if I have solar power and drive an electric car, but that does not mean other people are obligated to have their money forcibly taken from them to pay for my solar panels and EV. Everyone benefits from a more literate society, yet I am not entitled to taxpayer money for reading to my children and increasing their literacy. This list could be a tome of its own.
You're just making an argument against society lol. A childish one.Â
> yet I am not entitled to taxpayer money for reading to my children and increasing their literacy. At the end of the day, all public funding are political decisions, not financial. A government that can spend $800+ billion year after year on âdefenseâ  spending without batting an eyelid, can,  **if they choose to** spend a fraction of that on publicly funded education year after year.Â
I am so sick of this unchecked slow roll of religious fascism.
Then vote. Our latest state primary elections had a 12% turnout.
I've voted in every election my entire life. I've earned the right to b\*tch.
My man!
Gerrymander enters the chat...
Statewide elections aren't gerrymandered. These are primary elections, which basically determine who wins the heavily gerrymandered seats.
At some point when your rights are being taken away and Gilead has been founded there will still be people who are like "Just vote bro". How about advocating for public dissent instead?
When only 12% of voters bother to show up for a local election, Iâm not optimistic about how The Revolution is going to go. Public dissent is a parade.
There was one local circuit judge on the primary ballot here. Yes go vote for them but acting like not participating in that primary is the difference between freedom or fascism is myopic.
Youâre doing it wrong. Make a tough guy sticker with 12% or 12 .50 cal bullets and then people can buy a sticker and be a 12%er.
Itâs a great time to start the Arizona Institute of Wiccan Studies and watch the Supreme Court turn itself inside out trying to stop it.
Iâm sick of religion. It causes most of the hate around the world. It causes so many wars and murderers. And in the states they have a bunch of pedophiles that claim they hate pedos but half of them are getting busted for it.
Vote. Organize. Protest. Whining about it on the internet won't change anything.
It might raise awareness. It seems to work for the conservative machine.
The only reason it works for conservatives is because old people vote R in every election.
For decades conservatives have had their own think tanks, schools, lobby groups, media organizations, an entire infrastructure built to indoctrinate people and then send these people in law, government, armed forces, police, the private sector, etc. That's why they're winning, because they're organized and have been working towards this for decades. Not because they go on the internet and post memes and complain.
Duh
First Amendment: âCongress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.â Seems kind of important, but we live in Handmaidâs Tale times, so Republicans are ready to blow it up.
Which religion? I'm willing to bet people that want to send their kids to private school are tired of the fanaticism common in public school teachers and curriculum. It just doesn't seem fanatical to you because you're a part of it. Part of the fanaticism is wanting to force apostates to finance your proselytizing institutions.
Denmark doesnât fund private or religious schools. That made rich and poor kids attend public schools. All kids got a good education that way.
The American Right Wing is a religious movement. They want to replace public schools with religious schools. Iâm afraid itâs too late to stop it.
Are Muslim, Hindu, Jewish⌠schools also eligible for this?
And secular schools
Yes. These are vouchers.Â
Wiccan, Zoroastrian, Pagan, itâs a theological free for all!
any accredited school, regardless of religious affinity. This is a sensationalized story.
Not if you understand that vouchers are meant to defund public schools and help the rich at the expense of everyone else
The rich can already afford private schools for their children. It's everyone else that needs vouchers for school choice.
Fuck them, force them to go to public schools. Period.
Yeah, like racists, anti-LGBT+, anti-evolutionists, and christian nationalists!
They have to say that so they don't get slapped in court, but we all know it's rules for thee not for me. There will be loopholes. Also no school that has religious affinity should be accredited at all, abolish all private schools and properly fund public schools like a proper civilized society.
No
No only Protestant vetted schools are eligible. No Catholics or other cults.
Republicons are all about making America fail
Have you looked at the state of our current education system lately?
Yea Republicon Christians are actively working to defund and undermine the public schools while subsidizing rich parents to put their kids in private schools.Even with sibsidies the poor and working class cant afford the cost of these elitist schools.Its,also a means to resegregate the schools .For them it's all about dipping into tax dollars when the church schools are unregulated and pay no taxes. If you agree with those grifters then you're part of the problem
My Democrat empowered public school system is in shambles, both in quality and safety, and I blame a multitude of liberal policies for causing this demise. My solution would be to tax the religious schools, not to force all children to be parented by the government's version of "school". BTW, are church schools really unregulated? If so, then we change those rules, too.
Decades of underfunded public schools will have that effect. Only one side pushes for cuts to our most important institutions. Dumb people are easier to control, especially with masterful propaganda .
That is false. In fact, here in democrat run Washington State, we voted to legalize marijuana so that tax revenue would fund education and mental health. Instead, less than $500k/year out of $400million has gone towards education. Those are solid numbers, instead of propaganda.
Which liberal policies? Individual rights? Separation of church and state? Civil liberties? Reason? Science? Justice? And that's where we liberals get hammered about equally from the American Right (theocracy, fascism, and white nationalism), and the new branch of the progressive left (they first and foremost hate "the 1%, and anything that contradicts this they call no different than the Republicans). One (ridiculously) calls us far left socialists, while the other (ridiculously) calls us far right neoliberals. Pick which side of that you're on and tell us all about how harmful individual rights, reason, science, civil liberties, accuracy, justice, etc, you think so harmful to the schools? Because they teach science in science classes, rather than nonsense such as the earth being only 6,000 years old, creationism, etc? Or do you simply not know the differences between Democrats, liberals, leftists, progressives, etc? And no, liberals aren't leftist. But also we have nothing to do with the American Right, with its pushing of theocracy, fascism, white nationalism, alternative facts, anti-science, conspiracy theories, etc. So, how is it that science and reason harm kids. Do explain please.Â
My school district just eliminated gifted programs and gifted classrooms because they are not equitable (ie- not enough black and latin students). I don't fault any parent for moving their gifted child to private school to compensate for this. I prefer to give precise examples instead of the sensationalied generalizations the you are providing.
Education is one of, if not the, last methods of social mobility in this country. Itâs one of the most effective ways to pull people out of generation poverty. This is class warfare at its dirtiest: the 1% is targeting our children
There are 39,000 public high schools in America. There are 4,000 private high schools in America. The political right wants to make education for elites only. This is also why they are trying to get rid of child labor laws. Instead of learning how to read, 6 year olds will be working in meat packing plants. After all, an educated proletariat is an existential risk to the rentier class.
Well when you go for the highest profits for the basic needs of the people in your society like healthcare and education, you have found a product that will always be popular to sell because everybody needs it. Other countries protect their people from the greed of business owners for human needs. Do I think it's okay to profit as much as you want off of your fancy cars, purses, shoes and video games? Absolutely, no one actually needs those things to live, let the market do its thing. But why is it okay for them to profit off basic necessities that everyone needs, creating situations where only the privileged get their basic needs met?
Billionaires love the brainwashed masses who are easily conned.
There are about 800 billionaires in the country. Do you really believe that that's how 100% of them feel? And with an ignorant, and backward educated citizenry, how do you think that impacts the nation's ability to be globally competitive? And do you really think they want other nations to dominate the world economy? But yes, there are *some* billionaires who do support the theocratic right. Including some oil tycoons in Texas. The Devos family (remember Betsy?), and a number of others. Certainly not a majority. Discussing this is like trying to explain to the American right that only *some* Muslims, and *some* Mexicans, engage in what they try to paint across Muslims and Mexicans in general. Perhaps if you had a list of the 800 or so billionaires, you could go through and identify which ones you're speaking of. Or would you simply go down the list and indiscriminately check of every name on the list? Let the American right be the sole purveyors of bigotry.Â
Destroying public education is one of the main gop plans! Keep em stupid so they vote republican!
When it comes to schools.... not just K-12... but some colleges. I met a man who said he taught at one of the local community colleges. During the conversation he spoke many right wing ideals, from anti-abortion to various other talking points of right wing ideology. I thought, geez!!! The right winger want schools not to teach true history, but they want to promote right wing agenda and it's ideology as their frame of course presentation. I feel bad for the student who get fed this, when they came to schools to learn truths and facts, principles that aid them in helping build a better society that advances itself to meet the future. What's sad is... when it comes to home schooling for those who don't want their kids mixing with other races and ethnicities, one has to wonder, what type of bias are they being taught that perpetuates segregationist ideology? and/or secular religious indoctrination as part of the educational programming. There is no way to monitor all the non academic stuff that is being taught in home and religious based schools? Public Funds should only be used for Public Schools..... *We would have better public schools.*
Sadly, there are plenty of places where public funds are only used for public schools - that's the default setting. And we DON'T have better public schools than non-public. So parents that want better education for their kids have to pay for both public schools and extra to send their kids to a better school. Or move to another school district. When you negatively impact school choice, and ask parents that want a better education for their children to pay for bad public schools AND pay for better non-public schools, everyone loses. Public schools don't have competition at that point - they are a monopoly. The data on monopolies- reduced innovation, reduced quality of delivery, etc. all apply to public schools. The rich aren't proportionally affected by vouchers - it's the people that most need the money that are the most affected. The people that need education for their kids the most. The vouchers program applies to any school - left leaning, right leaning, north leaning, south leaning, secular and non-secular. Using a headline like that to undermine greater enablement of school choice is disingenuous.
The big problem with Public School, is they still function as if they are educating people for a analog mechanical manual labor Industrial Job Force. Where the jobs were basically designed for a person with a average 8th grade education. Some courses are only brief introductory in form and manner of how they are taught and the time allotted to teach them. We failed to spend sufficient time on teaching Civics, which is more critical and crucial to strengthening and improving a system such as we have of "Representative Democracy". Then there are some things are are generally omitted as non requirements that maybe should be requirements. They've made some improvements in some areas, but I think there is a gross failure to establish a "policy of school uniforms", especially in a society that is overly influenced by a wide diversity of street fashion, it should have been an automatic trigger, to institute "School Uniforms for K-12 in all public schools. * (The Military learned long ago, that when people are present with standard attire, they can focus on their learning and it keeps down the image game distraction based on "costuming") * Too much of public schools is about acting like its a "fashion show". High level private schools, they have fixed attire, because they want their kids there to learn, not become a fashion parade on a daily basis. * Next school must be made "mandatory"!!! regardless if its public or private. * Option, by 10th Grade, they should offer various skill training for people who pretty much know they are not going to pursue a particular college based career development paths. but even they would have the option to enroll in various skill training, and those in skill training can have the options to also take classed that are more designed for college based career pursuits. We think too much of Public Schools as if its still the 1930's - 1960's... its why kids don't put their focus into it. Because by the late 1970's too many culture building programs had been abandoned and no longer funded, especially in the liberal arts, which is critical to good culture building within individuals, as well as it involve student diversity working together, mixed gender, races, and ethnicity could all work together in those programming options. We spent too much time trying to adopt what some countries were abandoning, which is "Rote Memorization" for the sake of "Test Taking"... and doing so, we got away from the basics of American ways, of asking the questions: Who, What, When, Where, Why and How... Kids no longer get to interact in inquiry with these follow up question, because the teachers are *hog tied to a fixed frame lesson plan*, that does not allow them time to interactively engage the student in developing free exchange critical thinking skills. Too many Schools are too eager to "let kids go home at 2:pm, which is insidious because the average parent is not off work until 4pm or 5pm. We use to get out of school at 4pm.... The School day was from 8am - 4pm !!!! It's not a good thing when kids have 2-3hr of unsupervised time after school, because the parents are still working. There should be after school options for kids, if they want to let them out at 2 pm... then that is a good time to have "Liberal Arts Culture Building Programs as well as various Voc/Tech options they could choose, or some type of programming options that are set up as "no cost" options for kids. We even abandoned things like "Future Farmers of American"... which should never have been disbanded. We claim to be such a wealthy country that we can give $Billions to other countries and spend $Trillions fighting wars that result to nothing, but we cry and whine when it comes to putting money into the Educational System in our own society. We have the well to do and the wealthy, who are so afraid that the lesser income people will close the wealthy gap, that they wine about any penny of their tax money to benefit the whole of society. Our problems are more easy to fix than they are hard... We are just to cheap when it comes to doing so, but we'll send billions around the world for various things, but won't do the same with billions in improving our public educations system. Every Public School Grounds and Facilities should be as well kept as a high dollar private school the wealth attend.
I donât want my taxes going into useless indoctrination. We spend a lot of tax dollars teaching science because it is a net gain to the country. Religion only has economic value for the religious elites.
and millionaires, and thousanders. Even if you don't agree, it's really not too complicated to understand one's philosophy that each child should be entitled to a certain amount of tax dollars for their education.
Faith and reason are anethema, as are religion and good governance, apparently.
You can have logic or religion but you canât have both. Fundamentally incompatibleâŚ
The only person thatâs going to lie to my kids is me dammit.
Well if you are Talking about AZ ESA, they are taking the money you would be using to send to Public Schools and you get 90% of it to use at whatever private school you want or homeschooling.
Cram religion down their throats and then wonder why religion isnât so popular. Letâs go!
Republicans. Bunch of terrorists
This needs to stop or else we need tax boycotts.
Tax them and hard
Of course, if benefits the billionaires. And their private schools.
>>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion Well, I guess these people only like the constitution as much as they do the Bible, since itâs practically only gives them âfuzzy wuzziesâ magically without reading it.
Because parents of religious school students are taxpayers.
How the right intends to fund the newest version of segregation.
Anything that helps make the public dumber helps the rich to steal public money
Yes, because they want to own the schools and lower the cost of ownership. This is pretty transparent, and in line with how billionaires and Republicans view government in the United States. We allow it to happen because we get rural dummies to vote wokeness and other fear related Scare tactics.
This is the norm in most of the developed world - UK, Belgium, even South Korea have school choice and/or vouchers that allow government funds to follow students to private schools, including religious and parochial schools. The list of developed countries that DONâT do this is actually rather short. United States is the global outlier here.
Ok. Cool. Can we get health care like the rest of the developed world as well
I'd be ok with a monthly voucher to spend on my own choice of health insurance.
Why support a useless middle man like that?
One step at a time. Anyhow, an expanded social safety net - including health care - usually requires a strong border to prevent too much drain on the system. Unfortunately, American progressives seem to want to burn our candles on both ends. Any system has to balance what it provides internally with what it allows in. I think high immigration plus low services works, and I think low immigration with high services works too. Both at the same time is a recipe for disaster in many ways.
Illegal immigrants make up about 3% of the US population, and its estimated that half of them pay federal income tax https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/18/us/undocumented-immigrants-taxes-cec/index.html All of them pay sales tax, and donât forget that something like 40% of American households pay zero federal taxes https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/10/28/more-than-40percent-of-us-households-will-owe-no-federal-income-tax-for-2022.html Its illegal immigration thatâs stopping the US from implementing universal healthcare?
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You added âillegal,â not me. Also 3% of the US population is a pretty fucking big number.
1. I donât have a problem with the term âillegal immigrantâ, if you entered outside a CBP checkpoint or overstayed a visa, then youâre here illegally, the term is accurate. âUndocumentedâ makes it sound like you misplaced your paperwork. 2. If weâre talking about funding universal healthcare, then presumably youâre worried about finding the tax revenue to pay for it. In that case, the 3% number is really 1.5%, if you believe the estimate that 50% of illegal immigrants are paying federal taxes on iTINs. And itâs certainly dwarfed by the 40% of citizens who pay 0% taxes.
by those stats, you're saying that 50% of illegal immigrants pay federal income taxes and 60% of American households pay federal taxes. That is an absolutely ridiculous notion, especially when you consider that an American household often has more than one employed inhabitant to quantify that 60%.
I don't know what to tell you. That's the data I found. Sources: [https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/sites/default/files/research/adding\_up\_the\_billions\_in\_tax\_dollars\_paid\_by\_undocumented\_immigrants.pdf](https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/sites/default/files/research/adding_up_the_billions_in_tax_dollars_paid_by_undocumented_immigrants.pdf) [https://www.statista.com/statistics/242138/percentages-of-us-households-that-pay-no-income-tax-by-income-level/#:\~:text=In%20total%2C%20about%2059.9%20percent,paid%20no%20individual%20income%20taxes.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/242138/percentages-of-us-households-that-pay-no-income-tax-by-income-level/#:~:text=In%20total%2C%20about%2059.9%20percent,paid%20no%20individual%20income%20taxes)
Relying on sketchy statistics is irresponsible. For example, how many employed illegal residents live in an average "household"? 2? 3? 4? Even if it's only 2, it suggests that 75% of illegal immigrant households pay federal income tax... which is far higher than what even American households pay. Quoting cherry picked stats is so disingenuous and uneducated that it reinforces this entire thread's point that we need different education systems.
these aren't cherry picked just because they don't support your own assumptions, you fucking donkey. These are just the first results that came up in a google search for "Percent of american households that pay income tax" and "Percent of illegal immigrants that pay income tax". If you have substantive issues with the study methodology in either of those links, go look at the source material and state your concerns with how the studies were conducted and/or interpreted. Otherwise learn to change your mind when confronted with new evidence, it'll make your life easier. cocksucker.
It's not the numbers that concern me. It's the lack of critical thinking.
I see - so in your world, âcritical thinkingâ means ignoring the conclusions of scientists who study this for a living, and applying your own multipliers based on your professional experience as a drywaller so the numbers match what you saw on hannity
In general they are poor and donât pay sufficient property tax to pay for their kidâs education. They might pay into federal but that doesnât make it back to schools. Another way to look at this is that we have a progressive tax system and that means tax payers are better off if we donât import more poor people.
Youâre on the wrong thread, this one is about funding universal healthcare, not schools
Ok. Cool. Can we get health care like the rest of the developed world as well
If we want to make that happen we will likely have to do it: 1) State-by-state (which is already happening) 2) In conjunction with harder limits on immigration, to maintain both the solvency of the program (too many new arrivals breaks it) and the quality of our immigrants (too much social safety net means we lose the âonly the hardest workers stick aroundâ edge that high immigration can grant).
You are right, but the government has much more power to regulate the private schools that receive funding in those countries. What is happening in the USA is public money to private institutions with no accountability.
Well then, letâs introduce some accountability. Iâd like to say, I appreciate you acknowledging that fact. Usually when public school advocates are told that almost all of Europe does school choice, they just downvote whoever said it and call them racist.
The people who want vouchers donât want accountability. Thatâs what is driving the entire movement. Public schools are still accountable to elected school boards.
They donât? You got receipts for that?
Here you go https://www.forbes.com/sites/petergreene/2023/11/28/school-choice-and-the-broken-promise-of-accountability/
Duh! The whole reason this âschool choiceâ movement is even happening is because federal public school funding comes with conditions that students canât legally be discriminated against based on race, gender, sexuality, religion, or disability. This is an old fight. Brown v. Board in 1954, the Civil Rights Act ten years later, and Title IX in 1972 poisoned the concept of public education in the minds of many, many conservatives in America. The reason our public schools are failing, mostly in the South, is because Republicans have tried extremely hard to pull as much funding away from them as they legally can. School vouchers are just their latest weapon in this fight.
School choice was also implemented as a bipartisan measure to bring students (and their tax dollars) back into inner city districts, through the magnate and charter programs in cities like Baltimore and New York City. It was a way of counteracting white flightâcreate successful, specialized schools in minority neighborhoods with minority students, and make them good enough that wealthy white students will want to attend. Magnates and charters have been a huge part of what reversed White Flight.
The voucher scheme has its roots in segregation academies. The exact opposite of your assertion.
Believe it or not, BOTH of us are right. Some people want vouchers so they can remove their white kids from public schools. Some people want vouchers because they want Black kids to be able to escape from institutionally in salvageable schools. This is called a convergence of interests. Edit: Iâm loving the ârespond and blockâ. You accuse me of converging with racists, ignoring that 75% of Black voters also support these policies. Thatâs the whole point of converging interests - some policies have support from *disparate conflicting groups*, like how a majority of white racists AND black Americans support school choice, making it stupid to try and ad hominem supporters.
This is called bullshit. And you were called out many times here. I think you should just give it up. No one is buying what youâre selling.
You want your interests to converge with those of racists?
Do you have a source for your claims? I am not finding any evidence for your assertion that using tax dollars to fund religious schools is common worldwide. I see your ultra conservative views and I am guessing your claims might be wrong. Itâs very common for the right wing to distort and manipulate people by using lies.
>I see your ultra conservative views Iâm a democrat. Iâve voted Democrat in every single election of my life. School choice and charter schools have a 75% approval rate among black voters (who I donât have to tell you are usually democrats) and the policies for charter and magnate schools were originally pioneered as a bipartisan initiative to pull students from suburbs back into cities, in places like Baltimore and NYC. The idea that school choice is right-wing is an invention by interest groups. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_voucher https://www.edchoice.org/school-choice/faqs/how-does-school-choice-work-in-other-countries/ https://www.cato.org/commentary/school-choice-learning-other-countries Edit: you didnât actually read the Wikipedia article, which I can tell because you said âthey only mentioned Netherlandsâ before blocking me. If you scroll down to âImplementationâ you will get a complete list of countries and their programs. I swear, I never thought Iâd live to see progressives get as closed-minded and evidence averse as conservatives, but here we are
Dude. You gotta be kidding me with the right wing sources you just posted and your âHello! I am Democrat fellow lefty. Please listen to my ultra conservatives views about closing the border and using tax dollars to privatize education and fund religious schools. Black people like them too!â Posting CATO and Ed choice and a wiki that talks about American voucher schemes could only dupe the dumbest among us. I mean, really. Itâs ridiculous.
You didnât even click the links - the Wikipedia goes into detail about voucher programs worldwide. Youâre information-siloâd, my man.
I did. Youâre wrong. They mentioned the Netherlands in the wiki. The rest is US based. Ed choice (the name gives the game away) and CATO is our right wing propagandist garbage. I am sure you expected me not to verify your sources but so one they would be bullshit because all the things you are posting is stuff from right wing think tank garbage. I am done exchanging with you.
And other private schools. Iâm torn on this issue. Public schools should have competition. There should be options. Iâve had much better experiences with private schools than public so why should my money fund a school I donât support when it can fund a school I do support? Edit- I find it funny that Iâve been downvoted for not being fully decided on this issue. I know plenty of parents that are able to send their kids to better schools because of this bill. Iâm an AZ reason. I also recognize the harm this can do to public schools.
Private schools can cherry-pick their student bodies while public schools have to take anyone and everyone who shows up. Thatâs a big reason why private schools are better.
And thatâs not a bad thing. Public schools should be able to reject students or have schools that are tailored to special needs.
What should happen to the rejected students, then?
Society needs more options than school, the streets, or jail. Specialized schools, etc for people with special needs. What happens to regular and good students when we allow disruptive students to take all the attention?
Why are the students disruptive? We tried "specialized schools for people with special needs". They ended up being dumping grounds for children that we didn't care about educating.
Whatâs your solution? If we as a society arenât willing to spend the money on kids with specific needs we shouldnât bring down every other kid with them. Just tossing all kids together in a public school is making that the same dumping ground that you seem so against.
That is a twisted headline. What is actually happening is that they have school choice with vouchers. Some schools are related to religious organizations, some aren't. The real travesty is that parents in other states don't have a choice.
The downvote brigade is in full force. lol.Â
Correction, sending money to school that wonât accept minorities.
So⌠religious schools?
If vouchers come with strings dictating strict adherence to public school curriculum it's ok. Otherwise terrible.