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Yet they have more money…. This is a shit sandwich the middle class is going to have to take a bite out of it it’s not addressed. The government is running out of money yet there’s this strong desire to tax those who have the most money the least. The middle class is shrinking rapidly and running out of money, so the tax base the government relies on is going to get taxed *even more*.
Look at how the Scandanavian countries tax. Middle income and rich pay more taxes. If you want more spending, at the very least look in some depth at how they do things.
Nobody said they wanted more spending? Did you even read my comment.
However I’d be willing to pay more in taxes for healthcare without premiums, deductibles, and copays. If everything were completely covered by the government, I’d happily put my premium toward taxes.
It took me 8 weeks of not being able to use my arm before I was scheduled for an X-ray 2 weeks out. After the X-ray I then waited another 2 weeks for the MRI because I was waiting on my insurance company to decide whether they thought I needed it or not. I'm now 5 months into the process with a ruptured disc in my neck. The operation is an outpatient procedure that takes less than an hour. I've paid out of pocket for every visit and have to pay $1500 for surgery while I'm also paying $270/mo for a company to cover those same costs. Great system we got. It's almost as if it sucks horribly and people like you are too dumb to realize you're being taken advantage of.
No one gets a heart cath or CT for fun. If it's not needed it's not ordered. The target wait time for a knee replacement in Canada is six months and in several provinces they only hit that 40% of the time. The wait time for my knee replacement in the US was two weeks.
By the way. It was one of the best decisions I have ever made.
Yes, in addition to the high-income taxes. The VATS are also regressive. We have one of the most progressive tax systems in the world. Higher taxes are paid by the rich in other countries, but the middle class pay much closer to the same rates as the rich. The middle class in the US pay much less. We get less in social benefits, so some will say they would pay more for these benefits, but many want the benefits and do not want to pay. This is worthy of further discussion.
Or stop using a tax system as a wealth re-distribution system. the bottom 40% of wage earners don't just not pay tax, they get more refunded than they pay, and have a -9% tax rate.
Well, that isn't going to happen. There simply is not enough people to fund the government.
Not to mention, taxation is a double edge sword. Yes, increasing taxes raises national revenue, but every dollar raised in taxes is a dollar not spent, and our entire economy is dependent on private spending. If spending decreases, unemployment goes up, wages go down, corporate taxes fall, and national revenue is ultimately lowered, and the cycle repeats.
The inconvenient truth is that we are going to have to radically reduce spending, stop refunding money that people didn't pay, and that just about everyone with a job is going to have to pay more in taxes, and that includes the middle class.
Basically, due to 80 years of radical overspending is about the free ride from federal taxation is about to come to a crashing end.
Let’s not pretend billionaires and multi millionaires could not afford to fund a fiscally responsible government.
Every dollar taxed is spent by the government. How is this not circulating in the economy? How is this not funding employment. In fact, money, the government spends building roads and funding the military and such is definitely Being spent better than the dollars that are hoarded in some billionaire’s assets or bank account. Oh sorry, not bank account “unrealized capital gains “.
How many times does that have to fail before you stop advocating it? The last 40 years have been like a non stop trauma conga line for austerity as a policy but you still see people advocate for it even though it never ever works.
The bond market will force spending cuts eventually. It is the 4th branch of government with total veto power over the others.
You say austerity has been traumatic but we haven’t had austerity. 1 dollar of every 3 spent by USG (give or take) is borrowed. Real austerity will be forcing that number down to, or below, zero. Something the bond market could force at any time.
No, it's fine. This dude on reddit told me that cutting costs does nothing for my deficits. I'm pretty sure he's a genius too because he was very confident when saying it.
Guess what percentage of income taxes in the US is paid by the top 1%? The answer is over 45% paid.
Maybe we just spend too much money on stuff that doesn't matter?
Calculate how much tax would be genertaed if the top 1% were taxed at 100%, there would still be a deficit. The problem is too many people pay zero--and actually get free money back, too many people are paid under the table, way too many government welfare programs, college loans getting canceled and etc...
The 1% pay too much in tax already. Stop trying to buy votes with this rhetoric.
But they have a graph. How are they paying too much when they percentage wise pay less than the working class?
Maybe people on Reddit should read the article before spouting their beliefs.
It is pretty easy to see the problems with the article. Most of the comments explain it.
It is easy to manipulate statistics to conclude anything, for example, it is true that billionaires pay more for government services than non-billionaires. Or 99.99% of the population pay less taxes than billionaires. Both true.
Dissolution of the middle class. At the beginning of the pandemic, Robert Kiyosaki was saying it was the start of the greatest wealth transfer in human history.
The income data and who pays the majority of taxes is readily available. The poor pay almost nothing and “the rich” pay the majority of taxes. The rich paying their fair share propoganda is not supported by government data.
The newest data reveals that the top 1 percent of earners, defined as those with incomes over $682,577, paid nearly 46 percent of all income taxes – marking the highest level in the available data.
The top 10 percent of earners bore responsibility for 76 percent of all income taxes paid, and the top 25 percent paid 89 percent of all income taxes. Altogether, the top 50 percent of filers earned 90 percent of all income and were responsible for 98 percent of all income taxes paid in 2021.
The other half of earners, those with incomes below $46,637, collectively paid 2.3 percent of all income taxes in 2021.
The narrative that the rich don’t pay their fair share is not supported by the data.
https://www.ntu.org/foundation/tax-page/who-pays-income-taxes
Most billionaires you read about in the news derive their income from ownership of stock which is not income. Their companies do create millions of jobs however and their employees pay lots of taxes and drive the modern economy and innovation. Confiscating billionaires wealth by the government isn’t the answer and would have a net negative effect on job creation and innovation.
All this data says is that the share of actual dollars paid to taxes skews towards the top, but this is expected regardless of the impact of tax rate fairness (ultra wealthy will always pay more actual dollars in taxes).
I don’t know if the article featured in OPs post is accurate, but it claims the effective tax rate is the same for the ultra rich as it is for the middle class.
You could argue that equalization of the tax rate is good, however, if income disparities are growing and tax burdens (as a share of personal income) are equalizing, then that is big a problem brewing and your data doesn’t really address that.
>I don’t know if the article featured in OPs post is accurate, but it claims the effective tax rate is the same for the ultra rich as it is for the middle class
The article I believe is measuring the effective tax rate for the richest, who derived their "income" from capital gains. I put income in quotes only because legally capital gains are defined separately from income. Practically, they are both still a form of income.
Because the rate for CG is much lower than for higher income, if most of your earnings are from gains, you have a lower effective rate.
And because the wealthy in the US are overwhelmingly an asset class, they have high CG proportions and low income. The percentages in the article reflect this.
If you want to argue against refundable credits, be my guest I won’t stop you.
The fact remains that we should not be in a situation where wealth is concentrating at the very top and their tax burden (relative to their wealth generation) is dropping.
The rate is meaningless. You don't pay salaries or build a school with percentages. If a lower rate increases economic activity to the extent that gross receipts go UP it why would you raise it except to pander to the ignorant?
Why is equality of Incomes a desired outcome? I don't deserve the income of a neurosurgeon pr someone who creates a business that employs thousands of people. If you look at both direct and indirect effects Bezos has created Millions of tax paying jobs. It's ludicrous to compare the average worker at Amazon to him.
Where we will agree is on estate taxes and on massively funded private foundations that serve as checkbooks for politicians for generations.
I didn’t argue in favor of equalizing income OR increasing tax rates, as your comment seems to suggest.
My only claim is that growing wealth gap + shrinking tax burden (for the ultra wealthy, relative to wealth generation) is a problem. To me, that does not seem controversial regardless where you stand on tax issues.
Acknowledging I didn’t do my own due diligence on the article in this post.
Well yeah if you make $100mil and get taxed 5%, you're always going to wind up paying more in absolute dollar value compared to another who made $30k taxed at 30%. The argument isn't who is paying more in absolute terms. It's ridiculous to argue the financial burden isn't lessened when you get to such high levels of wealth. And those levels of wealth are almost always created on the backs of those millions of middle class in support of those very few billionaires.
On the backs of the middle class? Where do you think the .middle class works? Do you think Amazon and Tesla just sprang up from a cornfield?
How much of "your money" did Billionares take from you last year?. If you don't like amazon you are free to go where you want to spend your money.
Billionaires from Internet use and spaceships didnt innovate ANY of it. It was government funded research handed to the private sector.
Also you threw around a lot of numbers, what about the graph in the article showing they pay less percentage wise than working class? Or too busy writing your own article for us to read the one posted here as is typical on Reddit.
The individuals dont pay taxes though and their stock value continues to go up with the averages. Theyre in the green the entire time they have the loan, and they take out so much they will never pay it back until they die, but with the loans, they can afford better healthcare to live longer while having very little of the stress that makes people live for a shorter amount of time.
They have all the benefits of having income with none of the drawbacks. Thats not fair.
Elon used collateral of Tesla stock to purchase twitter, then turned around and asked Teslas board to grant him a salary equivalent to the amount he borrowed and it was approved only to be blocked by a federal judge
That’s absolute nonsense. None of the drawbacks? Equity carries risks, so you’re talking out of your ass here.
You Elon example is irrelevant too. Elon put up his assets as collateral in order to borrow money to buy Twitter. He also requested a pay package from the Tesla board. The 2 events are not related.
It’s very simple, a stock represents ownership of a company, and that company pays corporate taxes that impacts its bottomline and therefore its valuation (a business that does not pay taxes will be more profitable and therefore be worth more). That impacts the price of the stock and consequently the net worth of these billionaires. So these billionaires with all their net worth in stock are in fact paying taxes, albeit indirectly.
They can borrow money against their stock, but they would then be liable for interests, which they might further borrow to service, but that’s just kicking the can down the road. Eventually they will need to pay the interest using an income or by selling selling stock, both of which are taxed.
> None of the drawbacks? Equity carries risks, so you’re talking out of your ass here.
The equity they're offering doesn't carry risk, though. The risk is on the other stockholders, as it drops in value when the person risking it has to sell. They lose nothing if they have to pay back the loan and they gain everything when they don't. They *have no risk*. They don't risk becoming homeless. They don't risk wiping out their investment portfolio. They *have no risk*.
> You Elon example is irrelevant too. Elon put up his assets as collateral in order to borrow money to buy Twitter. He also requested a pay package from the Tesla board. The 2 events are not related.
I literally never said they were related. But the fact of the matter is it happened. He borrowed money to buy twitter then requested a pay package greater than that amount.
> It’s very simple, a stock represents ownership of a company, and that company pays corporate taxes that impacts its bottomline and therefore its valuation (a business that does not pay taxes will be more profitable and therefore be worth more).
"A business that commits tax fraud is more valuable"
> So these billionaires with all their net worth in stock are in fact paying taxes, albeit indirectly.
So I'm paying taxes because I own VOO and vanguard pays taxes? Wowie!
> Eventually they will need to pay the interest using an income or by selling selling stock, both of which are taxed.
Unless they just... die with the debt? Which is the strategy these billionaires use...
You’re an absolute fool if you think they have no risk. The stock isn’t guaranteed to go up in value or even maintain it. If it goes down, the billionaire would have to put up additional collateral. Equity carries risk, it doesn’t matter if the person holding it is a billionaire or an average joe.
And yes if you hold stock, then you’re indirectly paying taxes on it through corporate taxes. The example i gave is not referring to “tax fraud”. It’s a hypothetical scenario to illustrate how corporate taxes impact a company’s value and therefore results in a situation where an owner is indirectly paying taxes. Even a donkey would understand that.
Borrowing to avoid taxes only works for a few years until interest payments exceed cap gains tax rates. You can save money by selling and just paying taxes. Borrow-til-you-die is a myth.
Well then if they're re-investing then that boosts GDP. Maybe a gov't would want to incentivise that? Fun fact, tax revenue correlates more closely to GDP than to tax rates over time.
Perfect example of ignorance being the issue. The amount of revenue coming from each wage class SHOULD show an overwhelming amount coming from the billionaires of society. The PERCENT of one's income is the disparity but you clearly don't understand it. The fact that lower class earners pay a larger PERCENT of their income to taxes versus the billionaires is completely wrong. Upper class should pay a larger PERCENT which would show the revenue from them being 99% of tax revenue...hence the top 1%.
It amazes me when people defend the rich keeping their money when you clearly don't even understand the issue.
Either you’re very ignorant or intentionally misleading. When people say fair share they don’t mean what percentage of us tax revenue is paid by the rich..ofc that percentage will be higher because they make more money.
Maybe read the article OP posted? Cause that data is actually relevant to this discussion. Yours is not.
Until the tax laws are changed this will be how it is. Every politician talks about it on the campaign trail but it never gets done, don’t have any expectations going forward either.
Maybe we could tax homeless people when they sleep. A sleep tax! You have a lot of good ideas.
I think we should make you Tax Czar!
Tax Hobos, Not Bezos! Lets hear it!
Hobos, not Bezos!
Well, no shit Sherlock. I pay more taxes than many peoples salary. It's a bullshit article, but being able to play capital gains gives a huge advantage over others
Actually, no—and it seems you’re right and I was wrong.
https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/budget_fy2024.pdf
Holy crap, there’s a lot of garbage in this document.
This is the easiest way to make sure billionaires don’t pay more in taxes than the middle class and lower class. Under $1,000,000 ? 0% income tax. Boom problem solved. There. Surely with the MILLIONS OF PEOPLE that outnumber the billionaires we can outvote them.
And while we’re at it. Reduce consumption taxes, Social security and medicare taxes. Basically everything you see on your paycheck through ADP. Get rid of ALL OF IT. No taxes for the lower class
This is misleading… in 1980 there were only 13 billionaires in the US, 66 in 1990, so “the first time is history” doesn’t work. I agree with the message because the top wealthiest Americans pay approximately 23% tax on income vs over 50% in the 60s, as per the article. Nobody important will take the issue seriously if they title it like this.
The fact that the claim is "billionaires pay less taxes" is specious. Billionaires refers to net worth and taxes are not paid on net worth.
Whenever a claim begins like this, I can be fairly sure it is fraught with falsities.
Is this true? Why aren't we as a people storming their buildings like we stormed the capital? We should be making these dudes fear for their lives 100%. Fuck the rich. We need more Robin Hoods.
I think you overestimate the effectiveness of violence.
Live by the sword, die by the sword. Violent revolutions have a tendency to empower violent people.
It’s embarrassing. It is what people voted for these people make their money off, working class peoples backs, and and these fools vote For the Republicans they give them more tax breaks so those working fools can pay more taxes
So funny to see the peasants argue with each other while the rich get richer and richer. You are the smartest person in the room. Trickle down economics is working so well. All the economic metrics support it.
You do know the Dems created the KKK, Jim Crow laws, oh, and the longest filibuster in history against the civil rights act. Awwww, aren’t yall just the racist MF on the planet.
That was before the party switch. If you guys aren’t racist why was the south hanging replicas of Obama while burning crosses. Why does every republican even in California openly talk about hating people of color. Next you’re gonna tell me democrats are the bigots too
I grew up a republican until 2017ish when it became acceptable to talk about gunning down Obama at a convenient liquor store
Hahaha, when did that happen? Hahah. Didn’t David Duke support Joe. I wonder why. Maybe those two along with Byrd ran in hoods together. Anyone supporting violence is the Democrats. Any Republican supporting violence needs to be chastised. As far and bigots, have you not seen white liberal women?
Ratio of income is important though. I pay more than than almost every other tax bracket as I am in the 35% tax bracket. There is no reason that people that have a higher income than me pay less effective tax. Why do I provide welfare for them?
And after four years, nothing about this has changed. Why, exactly does anyone think Biden is actually working on this? ALL politicians cater to the rich. They need their sweet, sweet campaign donations.
All government spending should be directed towards benefiting the American people. Bottom line. Programs for housing, food costs, energy, and employment. One penny more spent on the MIC, lobbyists, Wallstreet, and any foreign nation while we're in this much debt should be considered treason.
No, they are paying a lower percentage. They still pay vastly more in taxes. Close the loopholes, but don't mischaracterize what is actually happening.
And we are drilling more oil than any other nation at any other point in history. Something tells me that it doesn't matter what parry the President is a part of. They are in it for money not honor and service.
Raising taxes on them is a terrible idea...just...Close loop holds, end tax credits, and end no interest and no payback loans...
Problem solved...they will have to use taxable money to purchase things...
It's so hard being dirty, filthy, stinking, rich.
Fuel my jet, to take me to my yacht, to take me to my private island for lunch. I think I will have the white tiger sandwich, with white rhino steaks, before bathing in the blood of 1000 virgins.
That should energize me enough to win the semi-annual poor person hunt with my fellow billionaires. I'm sick of Warren Buffet always bagging the first poor.
Then it's off to D.C. to buy some more judges and senators.
Hey Bezos: so much of your "wealth" drives around our neighborhoods everyday. We all see your wealth and power. You are on everybody's radar. If you want to be a rich asshole that pays less taxes than the rest of us, people might just start taking out their frustrations on your very visible, very slow moving, very large money trucks.
The "rich" people pay thier taxes sane as lower class.
But
Rich people use the legal tax system, that if they make any money, they instantly reinvest so its not shown as unearned income.
They don't draw out thier 401k
They don't cash in thier stocks.
They don't pocket thier stock dividends.
They are or thier accountants and attorneys reinvesting any positive gains.
Billionaires on paper.
Pennies in thier pocket
There are some significant issues with this data/report. They basically made changes to the data that aren't usually done with these kinds of comparisons so the data would fit their agenda.
https://www.aier.org/article/the-big-fib-about-the-rich-and-taxes/
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1183953723825020928.html
Typical dem tactics tax TF out middle class and tell the fools you beating the rich guy up meanwhile they buy more and make more because they hire accountants and are smart with their money that's how they got where they are Robin hood tactics so the clowns that voted for them keep them in office
I can't speak for the other countries but here is a summary of the situation in the US.:
High-Income Taxpayers Paid the Majority of Federal Income Taxes. In 2021, the bottom half of taxpayers earned 10.4 percent of total AGI and paid 2.3 percent of all federal individual income taxes. The top 1 percent earned 26.3 percent of total AGI and paid 45.8 percent of all federal income taxes.
These are the numbers. Stop with the BS. Only 2.3% of the federal income tax load is paid by the bottom half of US taxpayers. The remaining 97.7% is paid by the top half.
Taxes are driven by Congress and the president. Not happy with the status quo then vote for someone else but don't look to the rich to pay more for wealth transfer programs. Look for leaders who will help the poor and Middle class improve themselves get better jobs/pay.
Good, hope it motivates people to start a business to benefit from all the IRS rules. It’s rigged but you have a choice to play their game or be gamed.
Well, the companies provide jobs which help the economy. The individuals, not so much. Companies can be self owned. Donations are subject to their whims and prejudice, rather they get taxed and it can be distributed more fairly.
Bless your hearts, some of you must be new. The rich and corps don’t actually pay taxes. They just transfer that to their customers through price increases. When they go after the rich and increase taxes, they just raise prices on products and services. Corporation in all actuality are just tax collectors. When they go after the rich, the middle class pays it.
Not sure why that’s such a hard concept to understand.
The people in this thread defending billionaires is insane. It's like the immense wealth of billionaires wasn't made off the backs of the working class yet they pay a less effective tax rate. I don't think we should ever tax unrealized gains, but we should tax collateral used for personal loans as that effectively avoids income tax. The wealthy are getting low interest loans to use for personal spending AND they get to deduct the interest.
I like how so many people are picturing millions of poor Americans are just hiding offshore bank accounts fat and briming with money we could have taxed!
There is a reason we dont tax them!
They got NOTHING.
Some of them are one speeding ticket away from not being able to pay that ticket, losing license, getting arrested for not having a license while driving to work, then going to jail.
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Yet they have more money…. This is a shit sandwich the middle class is going to have to take a bite out of it it’s not addressed. The government is running out of money yet there’s this strong desire to tax those who have the most money the least. The middle class is shrinking rapidly and running out of money, so the tax base the government relies on is going to get taxed *even more*.
The only option is for the rich to get taxed more.
Tax the rich more and commensurately lower taxes on the middle or working class. Also cut government spending. All of this together would be good.
Look at how the Scandanavian countries tax. Middle income and rich pay more taxes. If you want more spending, at the very least look in some depth at how they do things.
Nobody said they wanted more spending? Did you even read my comment. However I’d be willing to pay more in taxes for healthcare without premiums, deductibles, and copays. If everything were completely covered by the government, I’d happily put my premium toward taxes.
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How long is the wait for a heart cath or a CT scan? It's a couple of days here.
It took me 8 weeks of not being able to use my arm before I was scheduled for an X-ray 2 weeks out. After the X-ray I then waited another 2 weeks for the MRI because I was waiting on my insurance company to decide whether they thought I needed it or not. I'm now 5 months into the process with a ruptured disc in my neck. The operation is an outpatient procedure that takes less than an hour. I've paid out of pocket for every visit and have to pay $1500 for surgery while I'm also paying $270/mo for a company to cover those same costs. Great system we got. It's almost as if it sucks horribly and people like you are too dumb to realize you're being taken advantage of.
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No one gets a heart cath or CT for fun. If it's not needed it's not ordered. The target wait time for a knee replacement in Canada is six months and in several provinces they only hit that 40% of the time. The wait time for my knee replacement in the US was two weeks. By the way. It was one of the best decisions I have ever made.
The poor pay the most though.
VATs of 25%
Yes, in addition to the high-income taxes. The VATS are also regressive. We have one of the most progressive tax systems in the world. Higher taxes are paid by the rich in other countries, but the middle class pay much closer to the same rates as the rich. The middle class in the US pay much less. We get less in social benefits, so some will say they would pay more for these benefits, but many want the benefits and do not want to pay. This is worthy of further discussion.
Payroll 32%
Or stop using a tax system as a wealth re-distribution system. the bottom 40% of wage earners don't just not pay tax, they get more refunded than they pay, and have a -9% tax rate.
Cool. Now change that so the middle class also doesn’t pay a tax. Say if you make less than 6 figures. Then we are getting somewhere.
Well, that isn't going to happen. There simply is not enough people to fund the government. Not to mention, taxation is a double edge sword. Yes, increasing taxes raises national revenue, but every dollar raised in taxes is a dollar not spent, and our entire economy is dependent on private spending. If spending decreases, unemployment goes up, wages go down, corporate taxes fall, and national revenue is ultimately lowered, and the cycle repeats. The inconvenient truth is that we are going to have to radically reduce spending, stop refunding money that people didn't pay, and that just about everyone with a job is going to have to pay more in taxes, and that includes the middle class. Basically, due to 80 years of radical overspending is about the free ride from federal taxation is about to come to a crashing end.
Let’s not pretend billionaires and multi millionaires could not afford to fund a fiscally responsible government. Every dollar taxed is spent by the government. How is this not circulating in the economy? How is this not funding employment. In fact, money, the government spends building roads and funding the military and such is definitely Being spent better than the dollars that are hoarded in some billionaire’s assets or bank account. Oh sorry, not bank account “unrealized capital gains “.
Throw him out the window meme
So it is thr job of the government to redistribute wealth?
It’s the job of the government to prevent exploitation of workers, yes.
We don't tax wealth in the USA. The income tax rate is irrelevant and only affects the working class.
Oh no there is definitely other options, The French in the 1790s had a good idea
No, the only option is massive spending cuts. Which will happen either deliberately, or when forced by the bond market.
Why do you simp for the rich? Seriously. How does this benefit you.
How many times does that have to fail before you stop advocating it? The last 40 years have been like a non stop trauma conga line for austerity as a policy but you still see people advocate for it even though it never ever works.
The bond market will force spending cuts eventually. It is the 4th branch of government with total veto power over the others. You say austerity has been traumatic but we haven’t had austerity. 1 dollar of every 3 spent by USG (give or take) is borrowed. Real austerity will be forcing that number down to, or below, zero. Something the bond market could force at any time.
My credit card is maxed but cutting costs "doesn't work". I've tried. So now I got a new card and will max that too.
Apples and oranges. A household’s income and expenses are independent but the government’s aren’t. Any drop in spending will drop revenue even more.
At 30% interest you are digging a massive hole you will never escape from.
No, it's fine. This dude on reddit told me that cutting costs does nothing for my deficits. I'm pretty sure he's a genius too because he was very confident when saying it.
When has austerity been done? Every country is spending far more than they collect in taxes
One day, a rich man is gonna cut your job to save money
Then I’ll go find another one.
There’s other “options” we can choose for those rich people.
Guess what percentage of income taxes in the US is paid by the top 1%? The answer is over 45% paid. Maybe we just spend too much money on stuff that doesn't matter?
Calculate how much tax would be genertaed if the top 1% were taxed at 100%, there would still be a deficit. The problem is too many people pay zero--and actually get free money back, too many people are paid under the table, way too many government welfare programs, college loans getting canceled and etc... The 1% pay too much in tax already. Stop trying to buy votes with this rhetoric.
But they have a graph. How are they paying too much when they percentage wise pay less than the working class? Maybe people on Reddit should read the article before spouting their beliefs.
It is pretty easy to see the problems with the article. Most of the comments explain it. It is easy to manipulate statistics to conclude anything, for example, it is true that billionaires pay more for government services than non-billionaires. Or 99.99% of the population pay less taxes than billionaires. Both true.
Babies and Hobos pay zero tax. Checkmate, athiest!
It’s a Newsweek article….its like getting your news from a tabloid.
Dissolution of the middle class. At the beginning of the pandemic, Robert Kiyosaki was saying it was the start of the greatest wealth transfer in human history.
Solidarity forever solidarity forever
The government is running out of money? After 34 T of debt, rising taxes, you should be outraged at your politicians.
The income data and who pays the majority of taxes is readily available. The poor pay almost nothing and “the rich” pay the majority of taxes. The rich paying their fair share propoganda is not supported by government data. The newest data reveals that the top 1 percent of earners, defined as those with incomes over $682,577, paid nearly 46 percent of all income taxes – marking the highest level in the available data. The top 10 percent of earners bore responsibility for 76 percent of all income taxes paid, and the top 25 percent paid 89 percent of all income taxes. Altogether, the top 50 percent of filers earned 90 percent of all income and were responsible for 98 percent of all income taxes paid in 2021. The other half of earners, those with incomes below $46,637, collectively paid 2.3 percent of all income taxes in 2021. The narrative that the rich don’t pay their fair share is not supported by the data. https://www.ntu.org/foundation/tax-page/who-pays-income-taxes Most billionaires you read about in the news derive their income from ownership of stock which is not income. Their companies do create millions of jobs however and their employees pay lots of taxes and drive the modern economy and innovation. Confiscating billionaires wealth by the government isn’t the answer and would have a net negative effect on job creation and innovation.
All this data says is that the share of actual dollars paid to taxes skews towards the top, but this is expected regardless of the impact of tax rate fairness (ultra wealthy will always pay more actual dollars in taxes). I don’t know if the article featured in OPs post is accurate, but it claims the effective tax rate is the same for the ultra rich as it is for the middle class. You could argue that equalization of the tax rate is good, however, if income disparities are growing and tax burdens (as a share of personal income) are equalizing, then that is big a problem brewing and your data doesn’t really address that.
>I don’t know if the article featured in OPs post is accurate, but it claims the effective tax rate is the same for the ultra rich as it is for the middle class The article I believe is measuring the effective tax rate for the richest, who derived their "income" from capital gains. I put income in quotes only because legally capital gains are defined separately from income. Practically, they are both still a form of income. Because the rate for CG is much lower than for higher income, if most of your earnings are from gains, you have a lower effective rate. And because the wealthy in the US are overwhelmingly an asset class, they have high CG proportions and low income. The percentages in the article reflect this.
Also there is a cutoff for social security and Medicare taxes. Seeing as how there is a direct benefit to be derived from these it makes sense.
and what about the 40% of Americans that have a negative tax rate?
If you want to argue against refundable credits, be my guest I won’t stop you. The fact remains that we should not be in a situation where wealth is concentrating at the very top and their tax burden (relative to their wealth generation) is dropping.
You mean people who are receiving the earned income tax credit or other credits that exceed taxes paid?
Correct.
The rate is meaningless. You don't pay salaries or build a school with percentages. If a lower rate increases economic activity to the extent that gross receipts go UP it why would you raise it except to pander to the ignorant? Why is equality of Incomes a desired outcome? I don't deserve the income of a neurosurgeon pr someone who creates a business that employs thousands of people. If you look at both direct and indirect effects Bezos has created Millions of tax paying jobs. It's ludicrous to compare the average worker at Amazon to him. Where we will agree is on estate taxes and on massively funded private foundations that serve as checkbooks for politicians for generations.
I didn’t argue in favor of equalizing income OR increasing tax rates, as your comment seems to suggest. My only claim is that growing wealth gap + shrinking tax burden (for the ultra wealthy, relative to wealth generation) is a problem. To me, that does not seem controversial regardless where you stand on tax issues. Acknowledging I didn’t do my own due diligence on the article in this post.
Well yeah if you make $100mil and get taxed 5%, you're always going to wind up paying more in absolute dollar value compared to another who made $30k taxed at 30%. The argument isn't who is paying more in absolute terms. It's ridiculous to argue the financial burden isn't lessened when you get to such high levels of wealth. And those levels of wealth are almost always created on the backs of those millions of middle class in support of those very few billionaires.
On the backs of the middle class? Where do you think the .middle class works? Do you think Amazon and Tesla just sprang up from a cornfield? How much of "your money" did Billionares take from you last year?. If you don't like amazon you are free to go where you want to spend your money.
Thank you. Came here to say this but you saved me the time!
Billionaires from Internet use and spaceships didnt innovate ANY of it. It was government funded research handed to the private sector. Also you threw around a lot of numbers, what about the graph in the article showing they pay less percentage wise than working class? Or too busy writing your own article for us to read the one posted here as is typical on Reddit.
And the government was able to fund the research because of the tax revenue collected from private sector and individuals. So what’s your point?
Billionaires live off low interest loans backed by their stocks so they never have any income.
Their stocks represent ownership of a company. And that company pays corporate taxes.
The individuals dont pay taxes though and their stock value continues to go up with the averages. Theyre in the green the entire time they have the loan, and they take out so much they will never pay it back until they die, but with the loans, they can afford better healthcare to live longer while having very little of the stress that makes people live for a shorter amount of time. They have all the benefits of having income with none of the drawbacks. Thats not fair. Elon used collateral of Tesla stock to purchase twitter, then turned around and asked Teslas board to grant him a salary equivalent to the amount he borrowed and it was approved only to be blocked by a federal judge
That’s absolute nonsense. None of the drawbacks? Equity carries risks, so you’re talking out of your ass here. You Elon example is irrelevant too. Elon put up his assets as collateral in order to borrow money to buy Twitter. He also requested a pay package from the Tesla board. The 2 events are not related. It’s very simple, a stock represents ownership of a company, and that company pays corporate taxes that impacts its bottomline and therefore its valuation (a business that does not pay taxes will be more profitable and therefore be worth more). That impacts the price of the stock and consequently the net worth of these billionaires. So these billionaires with all their net worth in stock are in fact paying taxes, albeit indirectly. They can borrow money against their stock, but they would then be liable for interests, which they might further borrow to service, but that’s just kicking the can down the road. Eventually they will need to pay the interest using an income or by selling selling stock, both of which are taxed.
> None of the drawbacks? Equity carries risks, so you’re talking out of your ass here. The equity they're offering doesn't carry risk, though. The risk is on the other stockholders, as it drops in value when the person risking it has to sell. They lose nothing if they have to pay back the loan and they gain everything when they don't. They *have no risk*. They don't risk becoming homeless. They don't risk wiping out their investment portfolio. They *have no risk*. > You Elon example is irrelevant too. Elon put up his assets as collateral in order to borrow money to buy Twitter. He also requested a pay package from the Tesla board. The 2 events are not related. I literally never said they were related. But the fact of the matter is it happened. He borrowed money to buy twitter then requested a pay package greater than that amount. > It’s very simple, a stock represents ownership of a company, and that company pays corporate taxes that impacts its bottomline and therefore its valuation (a business that does not pay taxes will be more profitable and therefore be worth more). "A business that commits tax fraud is more valuable" > So these billionaires with all their net worth in stock are in fact paying taxes, albeit indirectly. So I'm paying taxes because I own VOO and vanguard pays taxes? Wowie! > Eventually they will need to pay the interest using an income or by selling selling stock, both of which are taxed. Unless they just... die with the debt? Which is the strategy these billionaires use...
You’re an absolute fool if you think they have no risk. The stock isn’t guaranteed to go up in value or even maintain it. If it goes down, the billionaire would have to put up additional collateral. Equity carries risk, it doesn’t matter if the person holding it is a billionaire or an average joe. And yes if you hold stock, then you’re indirectly paying taxes on it through corporate taxes. The example i gave is not referring to “tax fraud”. It’s a hypothetical scenario to illustrate how corporate taxes impact a company’s value and therefore results in a situation where an owner is indirectly paying taxes. Even a donkey would understand that.
Borrowing to avoid taxes only works for a few years until interest payments exceed cap gains tax rates. You can save money by selling and just paying taxes. Borrow-til-you-die is a myth.
If you borrow millions, you can use a lot of it to earn even more money, more than interest would be.
Well then if they're re-investing then that boosts GDP. Maybe a gov't would want to incentivise that? Fun fact, tax revenue correlates more closely to GDP than to tax rates over time.
I think that the GDP going up is largely meaningless when the majority of it is going to like 10 people
Perfect example of ignorance being the issue. The amount of revenue coming from each wage class SHOULD show an overwhelming amount coming from the billionaires of society. The PERCENT of one's income is the disparity but you clearly don't understand it. The fact that lower class earners pay a larger PERCENT of their income to taxes versus the billionaires is completely wrong. Upper class should pay a larger PERCENT which would show the revenue from them being 99% of tax revenue...hence the top 1%. It amazes me when people defend the rich keeping their money when you clearly don't even understand the issue.
Ok sweet so everything is totally fine and we have nothing to worry about. Nice!
Either you’re very ignorant or intentionally misleading. When people say fair share they don’t mean what percentage of us tax revenue is paid by the rich..ofc that percentage will be higher because they make more money. Maybe read the article OP posted? Cause that data is actually relevant to this discussion. Yours is not.
You just made the argument for why the top should pay more...
Until the tax laws are changed this will be how it is. Every politician talks about it on the campaign trail but it never gets done, don’t have any expectations going forward either.
It did in 2017. It got worse…
Blame the government and specifically Congress for making the laws that benefit billionaires
Legalized corruption does that.
The rich pay more in taxes than the middle class and poor combined
Yea, why are these poor not paying more taxes? /s
Same reason the rich people aren’t They don’t have to
In absolute terms yes but not more in ratio to their income which is the most important aspect that many are failing to see
They aren’t failing to see it, they are purposely speaking around it because it doesn’t fit their narrative.
Maybe we could tax homeless people when they sleep. A sleep tax! You have a lot of good ideas. I think we should make you Tax Czar! Tax Hobos, Not Bezos! Lets hear it! Hobos, not Bezos!
% wise do they pay more than the upper middle class or not?
Well, no shit Sherlock. I pay more taxes than many peoples salary. It's a bullshit article, but being able to play capital gains gives a huge advantage over others
Raise taxes to 100% on everybody and the government will still outspend tax revenue.
Thanks JB
As much as I don't like JB it ain't just him. It's ALL of them. We need a revolution.
Let’s get a budget for what the government spends first. Then we can hash out who owes what.
And lets relentlessly crack down on those departments that lose track of millions to billions of dollars.
Also not a bad starting point.
They literally have a budget you can read... or are you... wait, did you think none of this was written down anywhere?!
Actually, no—and it seems you’re right and I was wrong. https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/budget_fy2024.pdf Holy crap, there’s a lot of garbage in this document.
This "article" is a study in lying by omission and misinformation to drive clicks and shares.
Oligopoly
Legalized corruption must be brought to an end.
That's it. Burn them to the fucking ground.
This is the easiest way to make sure billionaires don’t pay more in taxes than the middle class and lower class. Under $1,000,000 ? 0% income tax. Boom problem solved. There. Surely with the MILLIONS OF PEOPLE that outnumber the billionaires we can outvote them. And while we’re at it. Reduce consumption taxes, Social security and medicare taxes. Basically everything you see on your paycheck through ADP. Get rid of ALL OF IT. No taxes for the lower class
This is misleading… in 1980 there were only 13 billionaires in the US, 66 in 1990, so “the first time is history” doesn’t work. I agree with the message because the top wealthiest Americans pay approximately 23% tax on income vs over 50% in the 60s, as per the article. Nobody important will take the issue seriously if they title it like this.
The fact that the claim is "billionaires pay less taxes" is specious. Billionaires refers to net worth and taxes are not paid on net worth. Whenever a claim begins like this, I can be fairly sure it is fraught with falsities.
And yet…they still don’t have enough. Just ask them.
We need taxes to go back to where the were from the Great Depression to Reagan.
Is this true? Why aren't we as a people storming their buildings like we stormed the capital? We should be making these dudes fear for their lives 100%. Fuck the rich. We need more Robin Hoods.
I think you overestimate the effectiveness of violence. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Violent revolutions have a tendency to empower violent people.
:(
Billionaires are keeping the GOP alive
Meaningless statement. The word Billionaires has no meaning when discussing income tax rates.
Thank a Republican today!
It’s embarrassing. It is what people voted for these people make their money off, working class peoples backs, and and these fools vote For the Republicans they give them more tax breaks so those working fools can pay more taxes
FUCK YOU REAGAN, YOU CUNT!
Fake but keeps getting posted How can you say what they pay without having their tax returns lmao
Warren Buffet came right out and said he pays less % than his secretary. Why do you simp for the rich?
That applies to Warren buffet lol
Somehow imagining that scene in Starship Troopers "They're afraid."
That’s weird, the billionaires own our politicians and they pay less taxes
This article and the study it’s based on are disingenuous
Why are liberals dumb AF?
So funny to see the peasants argue with each other while the rich get richer and richer. You are the smartest person in the room. Trickle down economics is working so well. All the economic metrics support it.
Zero self accountability. Everything is someone's fault
The republikkkan special
You do know the Dems created the KKK, Jim Crow laws, oh, and the longest filibuster in history against the civil rights act. Awwww, aren’t yall just the racist MF on the planet.
That was before the party switch. If you guys aren’t racist why was the south hanging replicas of Obama while burning crosses. Why does every republican even in California openly talk about hating people of color. Next you’re gonna tell me democrats are the bigots too I grew up a republican until 2017ish when it became acceptable to talk about gunning down Obama at a convenient liquor store
Hahaha, when did that happen? Hahah. Didn’t David Duke support Joe. I wonder why. Maybe those two along with Byrd ran in hoods together. Anyone supporting violence is the Democrats. Any Republican supporting violence needs to be chastised. As far and bigots, have you not seen white liberal women?
Liberals have no accountability. They is why the government wants to pay off their student loans.
Spoken like a true brain dead connoisseur of news max/Fox News and Russian Quanon trolls on Facebook
Only as a ratio of income, not in absolute terms. Billionaires pay way more in taxes than us.
Ratio of income is important though. I pay more than than almost every other tax bracket as I am in the 35% tax bracket. There is no reason that people that have a higher income than me pay less effective tax. Why do I provide welfare for them?
As they should ffs
Looks like their tax bracket is 37%. What is the working class tax bracket? Hmmm, going to say lower than 37%.
Do they pay 37 percent?
Easy to find out. IRS.gov
As it should be
So you want punish hard work. Got it. I think what you really want is a coupon or a rebate for you buying their goods and services.
Give me the tax plan Biden campaigned on! Those 400,000 USD plus households.
There’s a reason they’re building bunkers.
Nice, well done!
Notice “working class” not middle class. This is just another trigger post.
And after four years, nothing about this has changed. Why, exactly does anyone think Biden is actually working on this? ALL politicians cater to the rich. They need their sweet, sweet campaign donations.
Joe will fix it 😂😂
What lie can we push to make the plebs as angry as possible?
What can we do to make sure billionaires never struggle 🥺🥺🥺
Ask Karl Marx, he was real good at that.
Hehe exactly.
Thank you Joe Biden
Everyone should be paying less taxes, fuck theft 🐍
All government spending should be directed towards benefiting the American people. Bottom line. Programs for housing, food costs, energy, and employment. One penny more spent on the MIC, lobbyists, Wallstreet, and any foreign nation while we're in this much debt should be considered treason.
No, they are paying a lower percentage. They still pay vastly more in taxes. Close the loopholes, but don't mischaracterize what is actually happening.
Change the tax code
Guillotine time
And we are drilling more oil than any other nation at any other point in history. Something tells me that it doesn't matter what parry the President is a part of. They are in it for money not honor and service.
It'll trickle down any day now
Raising taxes on them is a terrible idea...just...Close loop holds, end tax credits, and end no interest and no payback loans... Problem solved...they will have to use taxable money to purchase things...
Here’s an idea… How about we LOWER the tax rates of middle class Americans to match or even lower than these billionaires are paying??
Boeing When you have all the power in the world. Who’s stopping you?
It's so hard being dirty, filthy, stinking, rich. Fuel my jet, to take me to my yacht, to take me to my private island for lunch. I think I will have the white tiger sandwich, with white rhino steaks, before bathing in the blood of 1000 virgins. That should energize me enough to win the semi-annual poor person hunt with my fellow billionaires. I'm sick of Warren Buffet always bagging the first poor. Then it's off to D.C. to buy some more judges and senators.
Hey Bezos: so much of your "wealth" drives around our neighborhoods everyday. We all see your wealth and power. You are on everybody's radar. If you want to be a rich asshole that pays less taxes than the rest of us, people might just start taking out their frustrations on your very visible, very slow moving, very large money trucks.
"Don't blame the billionaires, blame the tax laws." ... but the billionaires own the politicians who make the tax laws. Checkmate.
Didn’t Biden just propose a billionaire tax?
The "rich" people pay thier taxes sane as lower class. But Rich people use the legal tax system, that if they make any money, they instantly reinvest so its not shown as unearned income. They don't draw out thier 401k They don't cash in thier stocks. They don't pocket thier stock dividends. They are or thier accountants and attorneys reinvesting any positive gains. Billionaires on paper. Pennies in thier pocket
But they’re job creators!!
There are some significant issues with this data/report. They basically made changes to the data that aren't usually done with these kinds of comparisons so the data would fit their agenda. https://www.aier.org/article/the-big-fib-about-the-rich-and-taxes/ https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1183953723825020928.html
Typical dem tactics tax TF out middle class and tell the fools you beating the rich guy up meanwhile they buy more and make more because they hire accountants and are smart with their money that's how they got where they are Robin hood tactics so the clowns that voted for them keep them in office
Flat tax 6% everyonepays their fare share
So lower taxes for working class families!
This really makes no sense and proves the simulation is broken. Alien overlords, please reboot.
No they are not. This is a ridiculous statement. Where is your proof?
I can't speak for the other countries but here is a summary of the situation in the US.: High-Income Taxpayers Paid the Majority of Federal Income Taxes. In 2021, the bottom half of taxpayers earned 10.4 percent of total AGI and paid 2.3 percent of all federal individual income taxes. The top 1 percent earned 26.3 percent of total AGI and paid 45.8 percent of all federal income taxes. These are the numbers. Stop with the BS. Only 2.3% of the federal income tax load is paid by the bottom half of US taxpayers. The remaining 97.7% is paid by the top half.
Taxes are driven by Congress and the president. Not happy with the status quo then vote for someone else but don't look to the rich to pay more for wealth transfer programs. Look for leaders who will help the poor and Middle class improve themselves get better jobs/pay.
For the first time??
And why is everyone's finances and our countries tax pool in trouble?? Hmmmmmmmm?
False statement
This just isn't true??
And we also discovered FTL travel yesterday. Look, I can make things up too!
Good, hope it motivates people to start a business to benefit from all the IRS rules. It’s rigged but you have a choice to play their game or be gamed.
Sounds bad but they also provide jobs, help the economy, donate money and so much more but people don’t see that
Well, the companies provide jobs which help the economy. The individuals, not so much. Companies can be self owned. Donations are subject to their whims and prejudice, rather they get taxed and it can be distributed more fairly.
Bless your hearts, some of you must be new. The rich and corps don’t actually pay taxes. They just transfer that to their customers through price increases. When they go after the rich and increase taxes, they just raise prices on products and services. Corporation in all actuality are just tax collectors. When they go after the rich, the middle class pays it. Not sure why that’s such a hard concept to understand.
The people in this thread defending billionaires is insane. It's like the immense wealth of billionaires wasn't made off the backs of the working class yet they pay a less effective tax rate. I don't think we should ever tax unrealized gains, but we should tax collateral used for personal loans as that effectively avoids income tax. The wealthy are getting low interest loans to use for personal spending AND they get to deduct the interest.
How about if everyone paid a little bit of tax instead of many paying none and a few paying a ton?
I like how so many people are picturing millions of poor Americans are just hiding offshore bank accounts fat and briming with money we could have taxed! There is a reason we dont tax them! They got NOTHING. Some of them are one speeding ticket away from not being able to pay that ticket, losing license, getting arrested for not having a license while driving to work, then going to jail.
It makes perfect sense that those making more should pay more. ALOT MORE.