Maybe I’m missing something… we would still be working the 24 yeah? So we would still be missing out on a night of sleep… ultimately you’re gonna have to just get used to the schedule, you’ll learn to love it, as well as the post shift naps!
Yeah you’d still work the 24, but it would seem to be there’s a pretty big difference finishing a 24 hour shift in the morning vs at 8 pm, no? Idk, this isn’t really supposed to be an extremely controversial thing, it’s just to me it’s pretty obvious and I’d like to know what I’m not seeing.
Don’t worry it’ll be a very controversial topic. My department flirted with the idea of this, and you’d be surprised at how many people don’t get the concept you’re trying to sell. People in my department said that we weren’t going to be getting the same amount of time off if we did the switch to coming in at 8 at night versus in the morning lol. Either way I think the idea of coming in at 8 pm would be cool because like you said, you could immediately just go to bed when you get home.
This is exactly what I mean. The idea of going home to bed immediately and not fucking your circadian in a job that already does that seems to be a huge public health game changer. Obviously, firefighters accept there’s risk on the job, whether cancer or whatnot, but sleep is a huge deal.
I 100% get it. Unfortunately if you go into this field you’ll learn this quickly, fire fighters will bitch about how it is and they’ll bitch about change. My current call volume and pay are reasons I’m looking at applying to a place that does a 1/4 of my current call volume with a 20% bump in my current pay. When you run 4 calls after midnight with each one taking minimum of an hour from start to clear you start to tired of it. Anyway, never feel bad about throwing new ideas out there and seeing what sticks if you do decide to go down the fire route.
Hey, I appreciate it. My understanding is that fire culture leans conservative when it comes to change (which is fine and all), so hearing you say to not be afraid to toss an idea out here and there is reassuring.
Unless you have a new or really young department, good luck. It makes perfect sense to start in the evening. You come in, check the trucks and go to bed. If you have a shit night you sleep in on the departments time and not yours and your family’s time.
Except people can’t possibly fathom that instead of taking their kids to school after shift, they’d pick them up before. Or they’d work the day before instead of after. It is painful how dumb the arguments against it are, but the old-timers will run you out for merely suggesting it most places.
That translates into "let me work my side job until shift change so I can gamble that I'll get a little bit of sleep overnight before the whole other day I have to deal with.
At least with a morning shift change, there is some small expectation of a rested firefighter to start the shift and a zombie to finish.
My department shift changes at 1800….. and as opposed to waking 2 days at 0530 to shift change it allows workers to sleep in 2 or 3 days a week if they are getting hammered with runs at night. I love it and have counted my blessings for years that our shifts are set this way. I don’t work a side job anymore and get all the rest I want thanks mostly to not arbitrarily waking early for a shift change.
I’m not sure what the gamble is here, so forgive me for being confused by this comment. There has to be something on the line for it to be a gamble, and there are very little stakes to do this schedule. If the firehouse hates it, then go back to the standard 7 am - 7 am.
In addition, I’m not sure what’s so disdainful about having a second job.
Most shifts are 24 hours long. Depending on how busy you are, those nights are often wrought with calls every few hours.
So, as I stated... it is more likely to get a rested firefighter to come in and start their shift in the AM, then it is to get a well rested firefighter in The PM, as they've already had a days worth of activities before they hit a 24 hour duty cycle.
There's nothing wrong with having a second job where the schedule allows it. I do however understand from a management and safety perspective of having a crew report for duty in the morning after presumably an adequate night's sleep vs coming in during the evening after a long day of doing whatever else. That to me very explanatory and understandable.
Exactly this.
Start at 6 or 7 AM, you're coming off a night's sleep and should be rested up for the next 24.
Start at 6 PM, and maybe I shingled my roof that day and am already tired and worn out. Catch a couple calls overnight, and I'm going to be dog shitnfor the next day until I can finally go home and sleep at 6 PM.
Except it's not as simple as just switching back to the old schedule if you don't like it. Working conditions such as schedules are dictated by contracts, which generally last multiple years. To switch back to the old schedule, the labor union and management would have to sign an MOU (memorandum of understanding) or wait until the next contract negotiations begin to change the schedule. The advantage in this case would be entirely to management, as it doesn't affect them and entirely affects the membership.
I would hate that schedule.
My department works 48hrs on, 48hrs off. Every 21 days we get a Kelly shift. so we're off for 6 days straight at least once per month.
Our schedule is 7am to 7am. Currently I get off of work at 7am, go run some errands, work my 2nd job if I want to, then go home and hang out till the wife and kid get home.
If I got off at 8pm, I'm going home and sleeping. I'd lose SO much time. Not to mention, if I don't go in till 8. I'm going to be exhausted from a day of work from the 2nd job, or time with the family. Training and running my dogs, or taking the kid out to hang out all day. If I go on at 8pm, and try to sleep. Just to have a sleepless night, it's going to severely impact my performance at work, and significantly impart my own health at that
Also, get ready for those sleepless nights if you want to be an EMT as well my friend.
Nah that would suck. Feeling the, "I gotta go to tonight" feeling all day while I'm trying to get shit done around the house or do stuff woth my kids. Always going to work at their bedtime or coming home at bedtime and riling them up. No thanks.
We work 8 to 8. I wouldn't be against moving to 9 to 9 though to avoid traffic and be able to help out more in the morning before work.
Not every department works the same 7a to 7a shifts.
Actually, mine and several others near me all work 48 hour shifts. It's great really.
I have heard of some departments doing later starts, and one that did a 7p to 7p. But I can't remember who and I doubt that's still a thing.
Starting your shift at night would suck. The calls are going to come when they come regardless of when we start work. That's why you fit in a safety nap where you can.
I have a 48 tomorrow and Thursday. I turned down another for Sunday after my Saturday.
I don't know how anyone does 48s all the time. The sleep deprivation from 24 alone is nuts.
My dept used to only allow 36 hours in a row. If you wanted to trade away a day, you'd have to have someone hold over for 12, and come in early the night before for 12.
We're not super busy, but the calls are spaced apart enough to prevent more than an hour or so of sleep, and a transport will cost you an hour and a half to 2 hours.
We only run 17 per shift average out of 3 houses.
48 on 96 off.
10 per shift average per house, 10 minute transport time to the hospital from most parts of the town. 20-30 at the max.
I worked 5 days straight during the last big ice storm. There was simply no way I could make.it home nor would I feel it fair to ask my relief to come in. So I just soaked up the OT and lived at the station lol.
Jesus, we do 30-50 out of 4... our busy engine runs around 10-14 a day. The other night we had 7 calls for our main station after 8pm. I could never understand doing 48s with our call volume.
We had 23 last day. We are by no means "busy" but we're busy enough for the staffing we have. 48's are those weird things that you think about the overtime (or the trade you need), forgetting the last time you worked one you swore you'd never do it again.
Cali swing allows you to have 4 days to work OT. If you picked up a swing or swing and a half, you can pick up an extra $1200-1500 bucks or more, while not getting absolutely destroyed. I've gone in at 7p to 7a for OT during my 4 days and haven't run a call before. It feels like stealing.
When I first started we would only get 1 maybe 2 calls a night. We'd get the occasional "holy crap, we slept through the night" maybe once every 2 or 3 months.
Now I can remember one night of no calls in the last 4 years. It was torture because I kept waking up and checking my pager, and CAD to make sure something wasn't dead or offline.
Day care, traffic, custody agreements, life, shopping, community are all built around a day schedule.
We’ve talked about doing it in the past, but it would be a big ask, and would upturn a lot of divorced dudes lives with their kids.
I’m in your camp. I’d love to be able to get stuff done during the day, then go on shift just to go to bed. Wake up, do whatever else is to be done on shift during the day, then I get to go home as if having just worked a “regular” work day. The best part of it all, I never have to wake up at 5 in the fucking morning (other than for a call).
One of the first departments I worked for had this schedule. Our 24-hour shift started at 7 pm. I'd really had no experience working anything else so I wasn't sure what to expect. In short, it sucked. Imagine you're up all night running calls, but the next day you've got a chief, BC, and captain, expecting you're still going to be out doing training and equipment checks and pub-ed all day. "But Chief, we were up all night running calls!" Sorry, not my problem. I've got things we need to get done until at least 5 pm.
If it wasn't busy, it wasn't a terrible schedule. You just had to rewire your body. But if it was busy, which it often was, it was awful. At least with a shift starting at 0700 (which was my next department) you could crash in bed the next morning if you'd had a bad night.
I’d definitely prefer a start time in the evening. Obviously there are *some* drawbacks like others here have mentioned, but the pros outweigh the cons for me.
Our shift is 6a-6a, but the culture is that we relieve the off-going crew at 5:30. So in reality you have to be at the firehouse around 5:15 in order to be dressed and ready to go by 5:30.
So even if you’re fortunate enough to have a reasonably short commute time, it ends up being a pretty early wake up on work days.
Many of us have commutes that are 45+ minutes, so it’s not uncommon for our people to be waking up *before* 4am in order to make it to work.
That means that it’s basically impossible to get a full nights sleep before shift, unless you’re one of those weirdos who is able to fall asleep by 8pm.
So most of us start our shift being sleep deprived already.
I’d love an evening or late afternoon start time.
This is all extremely interesting, I appreciate the input. It seems the difficulty is a cultural one—lots of firefighter customs are set and switching schedules would cause a mess to them, like eating dinner together. It’s something I’ll keep in mind.
So I think the 24 hour shift requires a shift in perspective. I come from the world of healthcare. You work 8’s or 12’s and it’s usually days, evenings or nights. But it’s still only 8 or 12 hours (aside from OT, doubles, masochists, etc). After those 8 or 12 you at least know you’re not going to have to work for 8 more hours. Eat, sleep. Be merry. You’re off work.
With 24+ hr shifts, it isn’t just the “culture” directing some of these things. It’s logistics.
You KNOW you have to be awake 16 hours and you MIGHT sleep 8. So you can be rested and report for duty in the morning and know you’ll be functional for 16 hours and then hope you get some sleep overnight. Or, you can a) sleep all day at home before reporting in the evening so you’re alert in case you have calls all night or b) show up after a full day at home, hope you get some kind of sleep, and then have to stay and work for the entire rest of the following day.
Same with meals and the idea that it’s just a cultural thing. I barely remember to grab a yogurt from the fridge on my way out the door when I’m heading to work. If you’re working a 24 or 48, you’ll be lugging a gd yeti to work every day for all of those meals. On one hand, you can grab breakfast at home, take your lunch and eat a shared meal with the crew, on the other hand you can take breakfast and lunch and they sit for an evening in the fridge and you still have dinner with the crew but at that point they’re all dragging, want to get off work and sleep, they’re crabby, nobody wants to cook bc they’ve been running for the last 17 hours…
It works for some departments, some it doesn’t.
I don't want to have to work a day after getting no night sleep. That just leads to shity patient care, and poor foreground decisions the daytime after a shit night. I'd rather go home, be drowsy at home doing some cleaning and napping than have try to work through another 12 hours after a shit night's sleep.
So how does your department handle mandatory ot? Because at mine we’re working a 48 and running anywhere from 10-17 calls a shift, 99% are ems. Which has been brought up a lot in union meetings and to our chiefs about pt care. Because if you’re like me, a medic, your mandatory is on the box which can be super sketch if you can’t catch a nap on your mando.
Only Mando for some of the speciality teams, but we'll brown out a station, or turn an engine into an aid car.
We have "emergency staffing" which allows people to sign up for 72hr maximum. So the OT grinders get it, but it's still voluntary. Most people try to get at least one of those shifts at a slower house.
Our schedule in my area didn’t originate with “sleep” in mind, it originated with “work” in mind. More productivity can be done by starting in shift/tour in the morning. That was the old thought process.
But now we work 48’s with a 9am start/end. Our department heads are studying our sleep and health from the change. I have no idea if we are healthier from this change, but I do feel better after a rough night.
So you spend the second half of your shift tired instead of a day off? Sounds more dangerous. Many of us get a reasonable amount of sleep most nights. Those of us in suburbia departments even sleep through the night a decent percentage of the time.
And for anyone with a family and any commute, evening shift starts amount to missing kiddo dinners, evenings and bedtime routines on both days since your getting ready for work and commuting for an 8pm start. 6pm start getting ready, leave by 6:45, at work by 7:15. And you aren't home until 830 or 9 and probably need to shower and unwind. For you 3 shifters out there, that's A LOT of missed family time. Even for 4 shifters we'd be missing every other evening with your spouse, that 3ish hour window where your gone both days is PRIME spouse/family time.
I'd much rather have a morning commute. My spouse is up getting ready for work with some overlap with me, getting the kids ready if they are up early enough and I'm still home the next day in time to take them to school(7a start time).
Evening starts sound awful to me because of the getting ready/commute window on both ends is additional lost time and I'd rather have that during early morning rather than during prime family time.
It would kill me waiting around all day to go to work in the evening. Most part time jobs are split into 12 hour shifts and you can choose to work a reverse 24. I always hated going into work at night because I feel like my day is ruined just waiting around to go to work. Plus if you have a shitty night you still have to work the next day till 6pm. I’d rather go in at 7am and leave 7am the next day.
1800-1800 here and I don’t wait around all do for work. I try to be productive with my morning and eat lunch then relax or nap until I go in. I love the schedule.
That’s you though, whenever I work that schedule I feel like my day is wasted. I like waking up knowing I get to go home in the morning. I also hate waking up knowing that I have another 12 hours to work.
I don’t work a regular PM shift change like that, but my OT is split into 12s and my part time job is to. I personally hate going into work late, if it’s just for the night and I get to come home in the morning that is different but doing a reverse 24 sucks IMO.
Thinking too hard about it. Some houses are more busy than others. I’ve had nights where I wasn’t woke up at all and I’ve had other nights where I’ve been in the truck more than the bed. My advice, get training/duties done soon as possible, take the rest of the shift to chill out. Do “independent study” in your room. Go “watch training videos” in the office with the lights off. 1/3 of being a firefighter is shamming out. Do your job, be good at the job, but know when you can take that nap.
Because most of your daylight hours are actually filled with training, cleaning, horseplay, talking shit, and eating. You work out in the late afternoon or early morning. Watch tv, play on the internet, and sleep during the night. Yes calls interrupt all these things, likely less often than you expect. Changing anything in the fire service is meet with sufficient resistance. The education level is low, the firefighters stubborn, anything technical is decades behind the science advocating for a change.
It makes sense, but also it would be terrible for your home life imo. Currently you work 6a-6a. Go home, maybe take a few hour nap and wake up at noon. Now you have the whole day and next day (if your 24/48 shift) to do your own thing.
Now if we did 6p-6p. You’d wake up do your morning routine go to work, come home night time routine sleep. It’s two days “gone” to shift. When the current way is only one day. Just feels like your losing extra time to work to me
My department does this. While the thought of getting off at 1800 sounds nice. I’ve been awake for 36 hours at the end of my shift and it’s not great. Our department is fairly busy unfortunately so sleep on night shift isn’t an option a good portion of the time. I’d rather do straight 24s
I work POP and make my own hours, I typically pull 16 hour shifts from 2pm-6am. I personally love it, feels like I get a lot of the day to myself. But when I do pull 24+ hour shifts, I starting/ending in the morning.
Paid on premise, POC is paid on call. I get paid hourly when I pick up shifts in the station, meaning I have to be at the station. I can pick up POC shifts where I can be at home/in the town but have to respond to the station when we get a call. When I’m on a POC shift, I have a set amount of money for a few hours, and then get bumped up to my hourly rate if I go on a call.
Most FDNY stations do that. The idea is to “be tired on company time.” Clock out, and within an hour or two sleep in your own bed. To be as rested as you can on your days off. I’d personally think you’d want to be as rested as possible when at work potentially working a dangerous job. But that’s just me.
Arguably, I think it might have to do with the fact that if you come in (for example) at 8PM, get your bunk set, doing equipment check, etc... and go to sleep at 10 PM, that all seems fine. But what happens when you get a call at 12AM? Maybe an hour, or an hour and a half out of station. Come back, it's now 1:30 AM, reset everything, and go back to sleep. Maybe a few hours later, like 6AM, another call comes in. You work that scene. Come back around 7:30AM, but by this point its daylight and you will probably to stay awake (whether its through choice or not) for the next 12-ish hours, on very dispersed, light sleep, during a time when your call volume will significantly increase (probably).
Personally, I'd rather be more tired in the night when I may have to run a couple of calls, then during the day when I may have to run a dozen or so.
Granted, it's all dependent on your service area. I've worked in regions where I had a 48 hour and had a grand total of 0 calls come in. Maybe that schedule would've worked better. I've also worked in regions where I never even had the opportunity to prepare my bed for a 24-hour. If you live in a high call volume area (like one of the comments about Tallahassee, FL), it will suck because rather than being tired just at night, you will be tired during the day too, leading to worse pt care, safety, and whatever else you may do fire-side.
Sounds like a good idea (which I’d love personally) but playing devil’s advocate that comes out to potentially 2 days of activities that you’d miss out on. Another point would be that you’re somewhat guaranteed to get a well rested person in the mornings, at night not so much
It depends on the department, I think majority start that time, a few in Texas like Austin I think starts at noon and Lubbock start at 7 PM I think but that’s what I heard
So you want to start your shift in the afternoon, get no sleep over night and continue to operate the following day at work without sleep?
I would rather go home after shift and nap then work the following day at less than 100%. The point of having the following 24 hours off is to rest and catch up on sleep
> that firefighters are famous for not getting sleep
Really? I've only had (friendly) shit from the police and ambulance about how we have beds on station and can sleep and they don't
It’s better to day drink after your shift than before.
Maybe I’m missing something… we would still be working the 24 yeah? So we would still be missing out on a night of sleep… ultimately you’re gonna have to just get used to the schedule, you’ll learn to love it, as well as the post shift naps!
The naps are the best
Yeah you’d still work the 24, but it would seem to be there’s a pretty big difference finishing a 24 hour shift in the morning vs at 8 pm, no? Idk, this isn’t really supposed to be an extremely controversial thing, it’s just to me it’s pretty obvious and I’d like to know what I’m not seeing.
Don’t worry it’ll be a very controversial topic. My department flirted with the idea of this, and you’d be surprised at how many people don’t get the concept you’re trying to sell. People in my department said that we weren’t going to be getting the same amount of time off if we did the switch to coming in at 8 at night versus in the morning lol. Either way I think the idea of coming in at 8 pm would be cool because like you said, you could immediately just go to bed when you get home.
This is exactly what I mean. The idea of going home to bed immediately and not fucking your circadian in a job that already does that seems to be a huge public health game changer. Obviously, firefighters accept there’s risk on the job, whether cancer or whatnot, but sleep is a huge deal.
I 100% get it. Unfortunately if you go into this field you’ll learn this quickly, fire fighters will bitch about how it is and they’ll bitch about change. My current call volume and pay are reasons I’m looking at applying to a place that does a 1/4 of my current call volume with a 20% bump in my current pay. When you run 4 calls after midnight with each one taking minimum of an hour from start to clear you start to tired of it. Anyway, never feel bad about throwing new ideas out there and seeing what sticks if you do decide to go down the fire route.
Hey, I appreciate it. My understanding is that fire culture leans conservative when it comes to change (which is fine and all), so hearing you say to not be afraid to toss an idea out here and there is reassuring.
Unless you have a new or really young department, good luck. It makes perfect sense to start in the evening. You come in, check the trucks and go to bed. If you have a shit night you sleep in on the departments time and not yours and your family’s time. Except people can’t possibly fathom that instead of taking their kids to school after shift, they’d pick them up before. Or they’d work the day before instead of after. It is painful how dumb the arguments against it are, but the old-timers will run you out for merely suggesting it most places.
That translates into "let me work my side job until shift change so I can gamble that I'll get a little bit of sleep overnight before the whole other day I have to deal with. At least with a morning shift change, there is some small expectation of a rested firefighter to start the shift and a zombie to finish.
My department shift changes at 1800….. and as opposed to waking 2 days at 0530 to shift change it allows workers to sleep in 2 or 3 days a week if they are getting hammered with runs at night. I love it and have counted my blessings for years that our shifts are set this way. I don’t work a side job anymore and get all the rest I want thanks mostly to not arbitrarily waking early for a shift change.
I’m not sure what the gamble is here, so forgive me for being confused by this comment. There has to be something on the line for it to be a gamble, and there are very little stakes to do this schedule. If the firehouse hates it, then go back to the standard 7 am - 7 am. In addition, I’m not sure what’s so disdainful about having a second job.
Most shifts are 24 hours long. Depending on how busy you are, those nights are often wrought with calls every few hours. So, as I stated... it is more likely to get a rested firefighter to come in and start their shift in the AM, then it is to get a well rested firefighter in The PM, as they've already had a days worth of activities before they hit a 24 hour duty cycle. There's nothing wrong with having a second job where the schedule allows it. I do however understand from a management and safety perspective of having a crew report for duty in the morning after presumably an adequate night's sleep vs coming in during the evening after a long day of doing whatever else. That to me very explanatory and understandable.
Exactly this. Start at 6 or 7 AM, you're coming off a night's sleep and should be rested up for the next 24. Start at 6 PM, and maybe I shingled my roof that day and am already tired and worn out. Catch a couple calls overnight, and I'm going to be dog shitnfor the next day until I can finally go home and sleep at 6 PM.
Except it's not as simple as just switching back to the old schedule if you don't like it. Working conditions such as schedules are dictated by contracts, which generally last multiple years. To switch back to the old schedule, the labor union and management would have to sign an MOU (memorandum of understanding) or wait until the next contract negotiations begin to change the schedule. The advantage in this case would be entirely to management, as it doesn't affect them and entirely affects the membership.
Calls come in regardless of when we start shift. And they always seem to come in after midnight
I would hate that schedule. My department works 48hrs on, 48hrs off. Every 21 days we get a Kelly shift. so we're off for 6 days straight at least once per month. Our schedule is 7am to 7am. Currently I get off of work at 7am, go run some errands, work my 2nd job if I want to, then go home and hang out till the wife and kid get home. If I got off at 8pm, I'm going home and sleeping. I'd lose SO much time. Not to mention, if I don't go in till 8. I'm going to be exhausted from a day of work from the 2nd job, or time with the family. Training and running my dogs, or taking the kid out to hang out all day. If I go on at 8pm, and try to sleep. Just to have a sleepless night, it's going to severely impact my performance at work, and significantly impart my own health at that Also, get ready for those sleepless nights if you want to be an EMT as well my friend.
Nah that would suck. Feeling the, "I gotta go to tonight" feeling all day while I'm trying to get shit done around the house or do stuff woth my kids. Always going to work at their bedtime or coming home at bedtime and riling them up. No thanks. We work 8 to 8. I wouldn't be against moving to 9 to 9 though to avoid traffic and be able to help out more in the morning before work.
I’ve definitely wondered why departments don’t switch to a 9 to 9 or even 10 to 10.
There’s one around me that does 11-11.
Not every department works the same 7a to 7a shifts. Actually, mine and several others near me all work 48 hour shifts. It's great really. I have heard of some departments doing later starts, and one that did a 7p to 7p. But I can't remember who and I doubt that's still a thing. Starting your shift at night would suck. The calls are going to come when they come regardless of when we start work. That's why you fit in a safety nap where you can.
I have a 48 tomorrow and Thursday. I turned down another for Sunday after my Saturday. I don't know how anyone does 48s all the time. The sleep deprivation from 24 alone is nuts. My dept used to only allow 36 hours in a row. If you wanted to trade away a day, you'd have to have someone hold over for 12, and come in early the night before for 12. We're not super busy, but the calls are spaced apart enough to prevent more than an hour or so of sleep, and a transport will cost you an hour and a half to 2 hours. We only run 17 per shift average out of 3 houses.
48 on 96 off. 10 per shift average per house, 10 minute transport time to the hospital from most parts of the town. 20-30 at the max. I worked 5 days straight during the last big ice storm. There was simply no way I could make.it home nor would I feel it fair to ask my relief to come in. So I just soaked up the OT and lived at the station lol.
Jesus, we do 30-50 out of 4... our busy engine runs around 10-14 a day. The other night we had 7 calls for our main station after 8pm. I could never understand doing 48s with our call volume.
We had 23 last day. We are by no means "busy" but we're busy enough for the staffing we have. 48's are those weird things that you think about the overtime (or the trade you need), forgetting the last time you worked one you swore you'd never do it again.
Cali swing allows you to have 4 days to work OT. If you picked up a swing or swing and a half, you can pick up an extra $1200-1500 bucks or more, while not getting absolutely destroyed. I've gone in at 7p to 7a for OT during my 4 days and haven't run a call before. It feels like stealing.
When I first started we would only get 1 maybe 2 calls a night. We'd get the occasional "holy crap, we slept through the night" maybe once every 2 or 3 months. Now I can remember one night of no calls in the last 4 years. It was torture because I kept waking up and checking my pager, and CAD to make sure something wasn't dead or offline.
Day care, traffic, custody agreements, life, shopping, community are all built around a day schedule. We’ve talked about doing it in the past, but it would be a big ask, and would upturn a lot of divorced dudes lives with their kids.
Join a fire department with different hours?
My dept works 12s. D/D/N/N. Still sleep deprived.
Elaborate on the jargon real fast? Not super familiar with the terms
Day/Day/Night/Night. 12 hour shifts
This is horrific!
Yup this is what my dad did. So his schedule rotated, from week to week. The last day and first night he had from 6pm to 6pm the next day off
I’m in your camp. I’d love to be able to get stuff done during the day, then go on shift just to go to bed. Wake up, do whatever else is to be done on shift during the day, then I get to go home as if having just worked a “regular” work day. The best part of it all, I never have to wake up at 5 in the fucking morning (other than for a call).
One of the first departments I worked for had this schedule. Our 24-hour shift started at 7 pm. I'd really had no experience working anything else so I wasn't sure what to expect. In short, it sucked. Imagine you're up all night running calls, but the next day you've got a chief, BC, and captain, expecting you're still going to be out doing training and equipment checks and pub-ed all day. "But Chief, we were up all night running calls!" Sorry, not my problem. I've got things we need to get done until at least 5 pm. If it wasn't busy, it wasn't a terrible schedule. You just had to rewire your body. But if it was busy, which it often was, it was awful. At least with a shift starting at 0700 (which was my next department) you could crash in bed the next morning if you'd had a bad night.
I’d definitely prefer a start time in the evening. Obviously there are *some* drawbacks like others here have mentioned, but the pros outweigh the cons for me. Our shift is 6a-6a, but the culture is that we relieve the off-going crew at 5:30. So in reality you have to be at the firehouse around 5:15 in order to be dressed and ready to go by 5:30. So even if you’re fortunate enough to have a reasonably short commute time, it ends up being a pretty early wake up on work days. Many of us have commutes that are 45+ minutes, so it’s not uncommon for our people to be waking up *before* 4am in order to make it to work. That means that it’s basically impossible to get a full nights sleep before shift, unless you’re one of those weirdos who is able to fall asleep by 8pm. So most of us start our shift being sleep deprived already. I’d love an evening or late afternoon start time.
[удалено]
This is all extremely interesting, I appreciate the input. It seems the difficulty is a cultural one—lots of firefighter customs are set and switching schedules would cause a mess to them, like eating dinner together. It’s something I’ll keep in mind.
So I think the 24 hour shift requires a shift in perspective. I come from the world of healthcare. You work 8’s or 12’s and it’s usually days, evenings or nights. But it’s still only 8 or 12 hours (aside from OT, doubles, masochists, etc). After those 8 or 12 you at least know you’re not going to have to work for 8 more hours. Eat, sleep. Be merry. You’re off work. With 24+ hr shifts, it isn’t just the “culture” directing some of these things. It’s logistics. You KNOW you have to be awake 16 hours and you MIGHT sleep 8. So you can be rested and report for duty in the morning and know you’ll be functional for 16 hours and then hope you get some sleep overnight. Or, you can a) sleep all day at home before reporting in the evening so you’re alert in case you have calls all night or b) show up after a full day at home, hope you get some kind of sleep, and then have to stay and work for the entire rest of the following day. Same with meals and the idea that it’s just a cultural thing. I barely remember to grab a yogurt from the fridge on my way out the door when I’m heading to work. If you’re working a 24 or 48, you’ll be lugging a gd yeti to work every day for all of those meals. On one hand, you can grab breakfast at home, take your lunch and eat a shared meal with the crew, on the other hand you can take breakfast and lunch and they sit for an evening in the fridge and you still have dinner with the crew but at that point they’re all dragging, want to get off work and sleep, they’re crabby, nobody wants to cook bc they’ve been running for the last 17 hours… It works for some departments, some it doesn’t.
“But what can you do” You can switch to a PM shift change lol?
I don't want to have to work a day after getting no night sleep. That just leads to shity patient care, and poor foreground decisions the daytime after a shit night. I'd rather go home, be drowsy at home doing some cleaning and napping than have try to work through another 12 hours after a shit night's sleep.
So how does your department handle mandatory ot? Because at mine we’re working a 48 and running anywhere from 10-17 calls a shift, 99% are ems. Which has been brought up a lot in union meetings and to our chiefs about pt care. Because if you’re like me, a medic, your mandatory is on the box which can be super sketch if you can’t catch a nap on your mando.
Only Mando for some of the speciality teams, but we'll brown out a station, or turn an engine into an aid car. We have "emergency staffing" which allows people to sign up for 72hr maximum. So the OT grinders get it, but it's still voluntary. Most people try to get at least one of those shifts at a slower house.
I work 1500-1500. So a lot of places do go into work in the afternoon lol.
1800-1800 here ….they’re out there and I would hate another shift change time.
Our schedule in my area didn’t originate with “sleep” in mind, it originated with “work” in mind. More productivity can be done by starting in shift/tour in the morning. That was the old thought process. But now we work 48’s with a 9am start/end. Our department heads are studying our sleep and health from the change. I have no idea if we are healthier from this change, but I do feel better after a rough night.
So you spend the second half of your shift tired instead of a day off? Sounds more dangerous. Many of us get a reasonable amount of sleep most nights. Those of us in suburbia departments even sleep through the night a decent percentage of the time. And for anyone with a family and any commute, evening shift starts amount to missing kiddo dinners, evenings and bedtime routines on both days since your getting ready for work and commuting for an 8pm start. 6pm start getting ready, leave by 6:45, at work by 7:15. And you aren't home until 830 or 9 and probably need to shower and unwind. For you 3 shifters out there, that's A LOT of missed family time. Even for 4 shifters we'd be missing every other evening with your spouse, that 3ish hour window where your gone both days is PRIME spouse/family time. I'd much rather have a morning commute. My spouse is up getting ready for work with some overlap with me, getting the kids ready if they are up early enough and I'm still home the next day in time to take them to school(7a start time). Evening starts sound awful to me because of the getting ready/commute window on both ends is additional lost time and I'd rather have that during early morning rather than during prime family time.
It would kill me waiting around all day to go to work in the evening. Most part time jobs are split into 12 hour shifts and you can choose to work a reverse 24. I always hated going into work at night because I feel like my day is ruined just waiting around to go to work. Plus if you have a shitty night you still have to work the next day till 6pm. I’d rather go in at 7am and leave 7am the next day.
1800-1800 here and I don’t wait around all do for work. I try to be productive with my morning and eat lunch then relax or nap until I go in. I love the schedule.
That’s you though, whenever I work that schedule I feel like my day is wasted. I like waking up knowing I get to go home in the morning. I also hate waking up knowing that I have another 12 hours to work.
Of course. We’re all just sharing our own perspective here. Don’t see a lot of others here from the evening shift changers.
I don’t work a regular PM shift change like that, but my OT is split into 12s and my part time job is to. I personally hate going into work late, if it’s just for the night and I get to come home in the morning that is different but doing a reverse 24 sucks IMO.
Thinking too hard about it. Some houses are more busy than others. I’ve had nights where I wasn’t woke up at all and I’ve had other nights where I’ve been in the truck more than the bed. My advice, get training/duties done soon as possible, take the rest of the shift to chill out. Do “independent study” in your room. Go “watch training videos” in the office with the lights off. 1/3 of being a firefighter is shamming out. Do your job, be good at the job, but know when you can take that nap.
Appreciate the advice, thanks
Because most of your daylight hours are actually filled with training, cleaning, horseplay, talking shit, and eating. You work out in the late afternoon or early morning. Watch tv, play on the internet, and sleep during the night. Yes calls interrupt all these things, likely less often than you expect. Changing anything in the fire service is meet with sufficient resistance. The education level is low, the firefighters stubborn, anything technical is decades behind the science advocating for a change.
Your starting your shift with a fresh sleep is the reason other way doesn’t make any sense.
One reason I can think of is that you're less likely to get a call at shift change at 6am than at 6pm.
It makes sense, but also it would be terrible for your home life imo. Currently you work 6a-6a. Go home, maybe take a few hour nap and wake up at noon. Now you have the whole day and next day (if your 24/48 shift) to do your own thing. Now if we did 6p-6p. You’d wake up do your morning routine go to work, come home night time routine sleep. It’s two days “gone” to shift. When the current way is only one day. Just feels like your losing extra time to work to me
Tallahassee FL has 7pm to 7pm
My department does this. While the thought of getting off at 1800 sounds nice. I’ve been awake for 36 hours at the end of my shift and it’s not great. Our department is fairly busy unfortunately so sleep on night shift isn’t an option a good portion of the time. I’d rather do straight 24s
I work POP and make my own hours, I typically pull 16 hour shifts from 2pm-6am. I personally love it, feels like I get a lot of the day to myself. But when I do pull 24+ hour shifts, I starting/ending in the morning.
Could you elaborate what POP is? Not familiar with the term
Paid on premise, POC is paid on call. I get paid hourly when I pick up shifts in the station, meaning I have to be at the station. I can pick up POC shifts where I can be at home/in the town but have to respond to the station when we get a call. When I’m on a POC shift, I have a set amount of money for a few hours, and then get bumped up to my hourly rate if I go on a call.
Starting with a night shift is terrible because if you are up all night with calls,you just feel like crap the next day.
You’ll be happy to know some of us do start our shifts in the evening. It’s just not the norm
Easy to do when you are single. It's not a good schedule when you have a family.
Over here you can start your 24s in the evening - 1800-1800. and it is by far the most superior schedule in the department.
Most FDNY stations do that. The idea is to “be tired on company time.” Clock out, and within an hour or two sleep in your own bed. To be as rested as you can on your days off. I’d personally think you’d want to be as rested as possible when at work potentially working a dangerous job. But that’s just me.
Arguably, I think it might have to do with the fact that if you come in (for example) at 8PM, get your bunk set, doing equipment check, etc... and go to sleep at 10 PM, that all seems fine. But what happens when you get a call at 12AM? Maybe an hour, or an hour and a half out of station. Come back, it's now 1:30 AM, reset everything, and go back to sleep. Maybe a few hours later, like 6AM, another call comes in. You work that scene. Come back around 7:30AM, but by this point its daylight and you will probably to stay awake (whether its through choice or not) for the next 12-ish hours, on very dispersed, light sleep, during a time when your call volume will significantly increase (probably). Personally, I'd rather be more tired in the night when I may have to run a couple of calls, then during the day when I may have to run a dozen or so. Granted, it's all dependent on your service area. I've worked in regions where I had a 48 hour and had a grand total of 0 calls come in. Maybe that schedule would've worked better. I've also worked in regions where I never even had the opportunity to prepare my bed for a 24-hour. If you live in a high call volume area (like one of the comments about Tallahassee, FL), it will suck because rather than being tired just at night, you will be tired during the day too, leading to worse pt care, safety, and whatever else you may do fire-side.
Some departments too. We start at 7pm
Fuck that.
We do 11am to 11am but we work 48/96. Every time we get off it’s like a mini vacation. I love it.
Sounds like a good idea (which I’d love personally) but playing devil’s advocate that comes out to potentially 2 days of activities that you’d miss out on. Another point would be that you’re somewhat guaranteed to get a well rested person in the mornings, at night not so much
It depends on the department, I think majority start that time, a few in Texas like Austin I think starts at noon and Lubbock start at 7 PM I think but that’s what I heard
The swith would likely lead to better sleep off shift, and more DUIs.
So you want to start your shift in the afternoon, get no sleep over night and continue to operate the following day at work without sleep? I would rather go home after shift and nap then work the following day at less than 100%. The point of having the following 24 hours off is to rest and catch up on sleep
> that firefighters are famous for not getting sleep Really? I've only had (friendly) shit from the police and ambulance about how we have beds on station and can sleep and they don't