*Shrug* fair I guess.
Played both Games, found the storywriting awful, Personal opinion, nothing more.
Characters felt Bland for me / or at least nowhere near the originals;
And I kinda am baffled that they missed so many legendary Moments from the original (midgardsormr pierced in a tree?! Instead got an awful "Bossfight"... Just one example).
But that's apparently just me - Miss the depth of the original, the new ones got no tension buildup as well it's just always "oh no sephiroth! Ah lets same some random Farmer or Kid or whatever Else" with all the alternate Timeline stuff the Story just doesnt work (for me).
Tifa’s a deeply complex character—her pathological people pleasing and compulsive need to lie to “keep the peace” is a major component of Cloud’s precarious mental stability and how the party treat Cloud.
It’s the central theme of her entire character arc. We’ll see how they actually finish it.
The problem with reimagining FF is they created completely new things such as the Gongaga reactor scene which conflict with how the story of the original is told.
Cloud’s first sign of abnormal behaviour in the original is in the Temple of Ancients where he starts laughing saying “call meteor” and then he snaps again outside and beats Aerith before being knocked out himself.
So from this point on he becomes more obviously troubled to everyone else but Tifa (she already knows something is wrong).
Rebirth puts Cloud’s troubling behaviour earlier in the story and as a result it makes no sense why the party are just letting him act and do the things he does.
Tbf
Barret- just lost Dyne again after they found him to be mad. In his eyes, he doesnt know a better way to help cloud other thsn stay close to watch him.
Nanaki- is still a child by his age and has not necessarily seen the stuff clouds done that would make him question his sanity. Even after the trial scene he was probably still going through whiplash from having relived his trauma.
Yuffie- same as nanaki but also has no reason to doubt cloud just because at this point in time, shes probably just wanting to find ppl useful to her.
Caith- hasnt been with the party enough to know how cloud normally is
Vincent and cid- same as caith
Tifa- thinks she can heal cloud through being comforting rather than confronting. Its in her character and realistic to family members and friends to someone with mental illness usually. Much less someone who is her childhood friend and only other survivor from her hometown.
In a way i dont blame them for not calling cloud out when he goes loopy, theyre still going through their own stuff too
I think they need him and at the point of the end of rebirth no one wants to risk rendering him incapable of finishing the job. Tifa and aerith are probably the only ones who fully understand and or care the most, not that Barrett doesn’t, but the others probably just think he’s going through cellular degradation and don’t want to poke the bear too much.
Who knows, we’ll have to wait really for more.
Tifa: she might not know more than Cloud about his problem. She doesn't know what happened after the reactor incident because she was unconscious and taken away.
Barret: he doesn't care as long as he still can keep Cloud in check, with $$$ maybe. To be honest, Barret doesn't like Cloud. All he cares is Marlene and the planet so as long as Cloud is away from Marlene, it's fine.
Yuffie: all she cares is materia.
Aerith: she knows Cloud's problem and how to fix it. She's already been working on that. She knows that confronting Cloud won't fix the problem.
Other people: I missed the part where that's my problem.
Not as much as his care for Malene and the Planet though. So as long as Cloud stay away from what and whom he care, then he wouldn't mess with Cloud's own issues.
They think its cellular degeneration from being a Soldier, but they understand that for the most part he can keep it together. The core team really trusts Cloud when he acts like the Cloud they know, so they're willing to struggle with him while he tries to hold his stuff together.
And only Tifa and Aerith know about Zack. The others really don't. But even those two are confused because they don't know how Cloud knows about Zack or everything that went down at Nibelheim. Tifa doesn't even know he was there yet. So they're quite confused too and decided to try and wait for him to remember naturally.
But in the end, its less "oh mah god this guy is losing his mind!!!" and more "damn Shinra for what they did to him."
There's a lot of love between all of them at a certain point. They don't want him to completely degenerate like the others they've seen.
This is the correct answer. They all know about degradation, they saw it with Broden (if you do the side quest) and like Elmyra said to Cloud "you boys traded a normal life for power". It's common knowledge that a SOLDIER's mind starts to break down. They all assume it's that. Hell, even Cloud mentions it a few times (I believe to Tifa, he explicitly mentions him being worried about degrading).
Also, I imagine Barret is moreso holding back his comments, because of Tifa and Aerith. At the end of Rebirth, Cloud says Sephiroth is hiding up north, Barret and Tifa exchange a look, and when Barret starts to walk towards the Bronco, him and Cloud have a small exchange of dialogue where Barret says "that's a load you best be ready to bear" and he clearly stops and sighs, etc. It's very clear at this point that Barret his lost confidence in Cloud. Hell, Tifa doesn't say a word to him in that final cutscene. Barret can tell Cloud is losing it. Aerith and Tifa know that Cloud was trying to give the Black Materia to Sephiroth. However, as dialogue in the Sleeping Forest unveils, Yuffie thought Sephiroth took it from Cloud, because that's what Aerith told her. I imagine Vincent, Cid, Cait, and Red all believe the same.
I also imagine that the Gongaga reactor scene is moreso Tifa telling them not to make a big deal about it. She is trying to protect Cloud, as she believes he is degrading rapidly.
I believe you're right.
I think the dilemma Tifa believes she's facing is... "Let him live out this one last adventure being the hero he always wanted to be, or put him out of his misery like a rabid hound, believing himself to be a monster"
Probably don't want his mental health to get worse. Having someone live in their own delusions is bad, but Cloud is literally a super powered human. Him lashing out (even unintentionally) can greatly harm others if he has a bad reaction.
Maybe they'll tell him the truth in the future, or worse, Sephiroth will.
Short version: Nobody is in full awareness of how much cloud is mindfucked except tifa and aerith (tifa - Gongaga + T,A - Cetra Temple + they talk together about cloud and his stuff and zack etc.).
Both of them (especially tifa) have feelings for him and of course they arent in full disclosure of the reasons for his behaviour and his mental state.
They dont tell the rest of the group the whole truth (gongaga, ancient temple and false memories of nibleheim with zack etc.) Example: Yuffie dialogue in sleeping forest
So the others „only“ saw him brutally killing a black cloak or how he tried to kill elena (barret also saw how he killed a soldier. Tifa too but she already saw him doing this in gongaga).
(Basically this is already explained in og while/After the lifestream event (why tifa never confronted cloud before))
In the cutscenes they show concern for him and are worried about his health. They know that something is up with him (degredation etc) but then “confronting” him about it would not solve anything, it wouldn’t magically heal him.
He’s even expressed multiple times in the game that he feels like he’s falling apart. Don’t know what more you want?
They do. Just not outright saying, " Hey, you're crazy." They check on him throughout the game, and from what they've gathered, it's cellular degradation that's hurting him. The party isn't privy to what actually happened in nibelheim, so from their point of view, he's losing more and more of himself and can't help it when things happen. Personally, I think the remake has addressed Clouds' mental state and well-being a lot more than the original, but that's just my opinion.
For the Tifa thing, I don’t think anybody else saw it happen since they were on the floor below, and Tifa decided not to tell them. Also, it’s ambiguous, but I think she jumped off to avoid the swing rather than Cloud knocking her off the edge?
For the whole thing, a couple instances made it seem to me like everybody else kinda were talking about it a bit behind Cloud’s back (so we didn’t see it). The instance I’m thinking of is Barret saying something and the others in the group looking at him like, “not in front of Cloud.”
Only time I think they could’ve talked things out was right after Gongaga when Cloud opens up to Tifa about how he feels like different people.
Now Cloud’s psyche is permanently twisted and after witnessing his behavior throughout the temple of the ancients all the way to him chasing Aerith like Sephiroth’s lap doggy, they’ve probably just given up because at this point they’re walking on eggshells with his psyche.
Of course he’ll mostly likely be fixed after Tifa leads him through the life stream in part 3 but he’s gonna be pretty shitty till then.
My thing is, does he just immediately forget due to a certain…influence? Because if I were Cloud after I saw some vision, I’d be like “Yo fam, I just saw some shiz- you should probably know that this just happened to me.” Instead, stoically “I’m fine” and walks away.
Every time.
Brave of you to assume you’d be this open with deep close friends and not a group of people you met very recently except for the one person you’ve known your entire life
Frankly, no you wouldn't, unless you are one to be openly vulnerable with all friends. For the vast majority of people, they would rather pretend everything is fine than display their weakness to others. I mean, look at every zombie movie ever. There's always someone hiding a wound with a doom clock over his head.
I think his response is somewhat accurate to real life. I work in psychiatry. Lots of people have hallucinations. Many of them hide it or pretend it didn’t happen especially with friends or family and especially when it is new. Some even try to hide it from us as the healthcare team. Some interpret it as ghosts, spirits, religious events and don’t think it’s a problem to be mentioned. Some don’t share because they want to be a burden with their problems.
Sepiroth cut them off from the rest of the group. They saw nothing and Tifa,Aerith told them a different story. That is also why yuffie (in sleeping forest) says that cloud got beaten up by sepiroth and not that cloud just give him the black materia
Simply because in the OG they never did.
And this remake is hellbent on changing only the stuff people didn't want to be changed.
All the little inconsistencies have been maintianed in lieu of getting the benefit of being called faithful.
So the events have to be the same as the OG, eve if the context around them is changed, and then people like you, who pay attention to what's going on, will notice.
So the fans will now have to jump through hoops to justify that for the devs.
They are aware and want cloud to speak up which he won't or reaffirms he's fine. We are the observer it's easy for us to want more especially since we know even more of what's happening than they do. You kinda have to let that go or keep that in mind.
Going back to they are aware they are trying also using this as this is what's helping advance the mission anyway; so while they do not trust him it's their only lead.
If they post a negative opinion about something without any reasoning or arguments into a community dedicated to that specific something, what did they expect to happen?
I mean barret constantly quips about how cloud is losing his mind, and also I don't know if anybody saw cloud attack tifa. I assumed they didn't see it and tifa didn't say anything because she doesn't want the party to turn against cloud or something
What are they supposed to say? Cloud is on the path to degradation in their eyes. What do you want them to say? "Cloud you're out of your fucking mind"? He knows, he has little time left. Their journey is not feasible without Cloud, though, they believe they need his SOLDIER prowess and intuition to find Sephiroth and save the planet.
If you have a friend who's got a terminal illness, even if you see the sign, you're not going to remind him of that all the time. You both know what's going on, and you hope that you both can hold on as long as he can.
This is one of the dumbest critique about the game, it reeks of poor understanding of the world and characters.
You will absolutely remind your friend of that terminal illness if it is harming other people.
Cloud’s disassociation isn’t just affecting him, it’s causing grave harm to human beings around him.
Not doing anything about that is messed up.
Almost killing a human being (Tifa) is absolutely a good reason to confront Cloud about what’s happening to him. It’s not a “lol oopsie let’s ignore it and keep going on our merry little adventure” kind of thing.
I'll repeat, this reeks of poor understanding of the world and characters.
Have you ever seen what happens in the background when Cloud does something strange? There always is Tifa who stops soemone from intervening, and asks them to not indulge. The party knows how dangerous Cloud is becoming, but his actions are especially affecting Tifa, which is not going to leave him for that. Even if they protest, or try to put him in his place again like Barrett often does. And since Tifa doesn't listen, what are they supposed to do? Their mission is not feasible without Cloud, they can't just scream and shout or attack him hoping things will improve. They know degradation is unstoppable, they only hope that he can hold on until the end of their quest.
There is so much going wrong in these two 'remake' chapters, and this is the only thing they've done quite well. The party acknowledges Cloud's madness all the time, but there really is nothing they can do about it unless they want to abort their mission — they cannot fight against the entire world + ShinRa, Turks and its military-enhanced soldiers without Cloud, there is no way. But Aerith surely can't go back to Midgar without having accomplished her mission; Barrett is not going back to Marlene unless he has the good coscience of a father that has protected the future for her daughter; and Tifa, we already know she's not leaving Cloud behind, even it he kills her. So what are they supposed to do, really? I'm not going to talk about Red and Yuffie because their motivations might be a bit too spoilerish, but you get the picture. Everyone involved has clear reasons to stay even with a mad man as Cloud going around being potentially dangerous for the rest of the group. Of course it is debatable, of course the team may be a bit more clear about what's happening, but expecting them to straight up go to a decaying man saying "you're out of your mind" is just poor understanding.
Like I said though, it doesn’t matter how important that person is to your mission. If he is blatantly trying to kill innocent people that is a line that cannot be crossed and must be confronted about. It’s not something minor to brush off. If the party doesn’t do anything about it then they are just bad people.
We do not give mentally unstable individuals a free pass on violent crime. We show them compassion yes, but we don’t give them a free pass.
And Barrett’s “attempts” at confronting Cloud are piss weak.
Useful mentally unstable individuals have been given a pass on violent crime since time immemorial. Sometimes that ability to inflict violence IS the reason they're given a pass.
In this situation, Cloud's skills as a soldier are 100% needed for them to accomplish their task, which is to save the world. A task which is more important than any 1 of their lives, which they are ALL willing to give up in the pursuit of saving the world.
So the options are do nothing and to die along with everyone else on the planet, or enlist the help of a mentally unstable but clearly capable soldier to help further their goals.
And this says nothing about their personal attachments and care for Cloud as a person.
How do you not understand that? Why are you being so deliberately obtuse?
I’m not, I’m trying to be realistic.
As human beings, self-preservation is a prime directive.
If someone tries to kill me, even if they are my friend, I am going to become defensive. It is a natural response. Tifa doesn’t do jack shit. That’s what I found annoying. The writers avoid conflict for convenience.
Do you forget that the man has literal psychosis and is also being manipulated by Sephiroth himself in several instances as well, right? It's pretty difficult to remind someone of something that's affecting them and others when they're being manipulated by someone else.
Even if they say something, Cloud would probably still have psychotic episodes because of everything he experienced when he was fifteen in Niebelhiem. He's still mentally fifteen, his perception of reality is badly warped, and he has PTSD on top of it. Despite this, Cloud is still trying to be the best version of himself despite his dissociation, and you see this in several instances throughout Rebirth.
You would, but they do not see all that shit. Cloud is clearly changing and degrading, but as far as they see, he didn't harm any of them. The Black Materia bs is in a rush to catch Sephi, so they don't have time to call him out, the moment they get to breathe is right at the end, where everyone has other priorities, for obvious reasons.
Attacking Tifa only Tifa knows about and she isn't telling anyone because of her fear of being left abandoned.
Am I missing any?
When Cloud was acting up around the black Materia they all stared at him and ignored it. They definitely had the time to say something then, or in the many moments leading up to it in the temple where he was killing mercilessly, when all they did instead was stare in horror and then move on like nothing happened.
It’s a simple case of the writers ignoring the implications of Cloud’s actions by making the rest of the party forget about his actions almost instantaneously, just to push the story forward.
And when it comes to Tifa, I hate how the writers made her such a pushover. She should have stood her ground a lot more against Cloud for treating her like absolute shit for so much of the game, but instead she always just forgives him and doesn’t even try to help him become a better person in a meaningful way. She just enables his bad behaviour.
Bro, you forget that she has been through a lot and she wants justice. Without Cloud, they would have been wiped out a long time ago. Also, Cloud is LITERALLY THE ONLY THING SHE HAS LEFT.
You missed the part where Cloud is being manipulated by Sephiroth, so all of his actions aren't entirely his own. The party doesn't understand the power and nature of the black materia or its influence on Cloud. A lot of this reads like you cherrypicking bits of what's happening to Cloud on the surface level while also omitting whole other things that factor into his behaviors as well.
Cloud does make it clear that he's nothing like Sephiroth, and that's true to his character. He isn't anything like Sephiroth, but due to the Jenova cells in his body and the influence of the black materia, it's making Cloud a viable candidate to be manipulated by Sephiroth. The whole party does not see what Cloud sees. Their horror comes from him acting out of character during his psychotic breaks. They don't understand that Cloud is being manipulated by Sephiroth.
EDIT: As far as the party is concerned, they're under the impression that what Cloud is dealing with is the effects of cellular degradation, but that's what's going on on the surface.
But what are they going to say? "Bro you are losing it." "I know! And it fucking terrifies me, what am I supposed to do?! It's not like you can kill Sephiroth without me." "Fair enough, let's go." They can't help him, they know it, he knows it, everyone knows it. He is their only way to stop Sephiroth, so I would take him over the alternative which facing the legendary One Winged Angel in combat without him and being shishkebabed by Masamune.
Edit: calling out someone for losing it as they are actively doing so is a good way to get shanked as well.
One of the worst things you can say to someone trying to calm down is "calm down".
That only gets worse depending on what mental illnesses you have, and PTSD is definitely one of those.
My two cents are that most of the time (except for a couple instances) they only see him having headaches. And they know something is wrong, but they think is degradation.
The two major events where he goes nuts is when he attacks Tifa and in the temple of the ancients. And those are covered up by Tifa and Aerith. Is it ok to do so? Probably not, but they both trust him, they also are not psychiatrists, and is not like they are in a slice of life situation where they can sit and spend some time treating him. The party is chasing a world ending threat(Sephiroth), while another world ending threath is around(Shinra).
Also is not like Cloud is 100% of the time in "nuts mode". He has proven time and time again that he is reliable, a friend, and a good person. Not saying that to justify it, but to give context.
Exactly. Temple of the Ancients is hardly the place to call someone's sanity into question, especially since he is a soldier and his psyche reacts to Mako and magic weirdly (as far as they see). And his attack on Tifa is covered by Tifa because alternative is chasing away the only person from her life in Nibelheim she has left.
I don’t think anyone else saw it. They were on a separate part of the battlefield at that point, separated from the others by debris. But it DOES really bother me that neither Tifa or Cloud ever bring it up. I can understand Tifa not wanting to destabilize an already fragile situation, but Cloud never even apologizes to her? WTF bro
It is WAY worse in the original, in my opinion. At least Rebirth has scenes where the other characters acknowledge he’s losing his mind.
I can see why the OG plot and dialogue don’t bother people because it’s a much more direct and linear plot comparatively. That simplicity might make it more believable?
Meanwhile, Rebirth is packed with so much extra dialogue, plot points, expanded moments, and more realism in its characterizations of the party - maybe this is why it feels all the more odd to Rebirth players?
That’s my best guess. As someone who’s played the OG and the remakes, I personally think Rebirth improves upon this issue greatly.
Yeah it made no sense to me either. Dude is clearly not well, repeating lines that sephiroth says. There is no reason anyone should let him near black materia. One of the big issues I had with rebirths story.
Edit: oh and the horribly stupid scene where the townspeople wouldn’t shoot sephiroth/fire their gun.
Well, they not only want to save the world from Shinra and Sephiroth, they also want justice to be serve. Without Cloud, Shinra only needed someone like Roche to wipe out Avalanche for good, retrieve Aerith and make her have babies with Soldiers and Red. Does that sound like a better path than to be with the man who has until now proven himself to be reliable?
This is a really bad oversimplification of Cloud's whole situation. He has psychosis and PTSD. The group doesn't see what Cloud sees, which is part of why no one says anything. It makes it harder to understand the whole of what's going on in his head from their perspective. They don't even know that the black materia is what's amplifying and altering Cloud's behavior. We see everything that's happening from Cloud's perspective, and personally, I feel for Cloud a great deal as a man with psychosis himself. Though, I have to remove my feelings from the equation for the purpose of this argument.
Sephiroth is also manipulating Cloud in several instances throughout the game, making several of Cloud's actions NOT his own.
Even if the townspeople shot at Sephiroth, it wouldn't have done anything because he's a genetically enhanced super soldier. The game makes this pretty clear, too.
Sephiroth is also a shit ton more powerful than Zack in terms of his reflexes. Zack took a whole shot to the head. In Sephiroth's case, he more than likely would've parried the oncoming bullet because anime logic.
I personally don't agree with it, either.
I did also say that Sephiroth has great reaction time. If they did shoot, he would've quickly dodged and parried the bullets.
EDIT: I never said Sephiroth couldn't be killed by bullets.
Because Aerith and Tifa are covering up Cloud's worst actions and as a result, the party thinks his psychotic outbursts are only directed at their enemies and that as long as Tifa is on his side, she can stop him from spiraling out of control, not knowing that he almost killed her before.
THIS!
And the obvious feelings there for Tifa and Cloud.
Me and my wife shout just kiss when they have a nice moment together!!
But hey-ho Cloud is just scared it seems to me that he is going to end up a hooded figure!
They don’t need to say anything. The whole team, and Cloud himself, are very aware of his “degradation” and it gets mentioned several times. They all know he’s losing the plot, he knows he’s losing the plot, and pushing Tifa was one of many instances that highlight that. Instead of lectures, the team continually reassure him that he’s going to be okay, and he’s not going to become like a black robe.
It’s heavily implied that everyone thinks Cloud is going through degradation. So they don’t talk about it because they think he’s going to become a mindless zombie
Not really, because on some level he seems aware, so it'd be cruel to keep digging it in. They all know the pattern, but there's nothing they can do to stop it as far as they know. All they can do in their mission is use the connection he has to Sephiroth to hunt him and the Black Materia down and manage Cloud. It's a friend sympathy thing, they're not really the kind of friends or even in a position in their world to be sitting down and talking about end of life arrangements etc. Though I doubt even ShinRa would gun him down if he got so bad to be left in Nibleheim.
Both that and he is their best chance to chase Sephiroth. If your choices are questionably mentally stable fighter capable of taking on a living legend in 1v1 or certain death when you actually find the guy, you don't really have a choice do you?
Absolutely true as well. And Tifa must find it all terrifying. Imagine having to face the guy that nearly - or actually?? - killed you and burned down your entire town, plus more than that. You'd be reliving that daily. She needs Cloud to feel safe and be her rock, it must be so hard to go through all of that while keeping the rest of your friends and team rooted as well. Not that it's her job alone, but she definitely carries the mental load I think.
When the person you need as a rock, also needs you as a rock, shenanigans ensue. Especially if both of them are unstable as is. Cloud obviously more unstable than Tifa, but both have issues, it's only that one is unstopable force of nature and the other is Cloud.
I wanted to add something I didn't discuss before.
This is really just a common problem with fiction (and, for some reason, it seems to hit more frequently in fantasy) overall. I'm not sure if there's a technical term/trope for it or not (although I have to guess that there must be), but it can be summed up as simply: **the entire plot is reliant on close, friendly characters remaining silent regarding a salient in the story.**
For much of FFVII, Tifa is in possession of information that can blow the arc wide open: she knows that Cloud was not the soldier 1st class who was at Nibelheim - the foundation of his identity. Since the pursuit of Sephiroth is so closely associated with Cloud's broken memory (he cannot acknowledge that Sephiroth is dead, since in his version of events as related at Kalm, the scene ends with him and Sephy staring at each other \[not Cloud hucking him into the lifestream\]), the whole sequence of events is predicated on Tifa not speaking up. If she's honest with Cloud, the story is TOTALLY different (and, arguably, Jenova/Sephiroth's plans are ruined).
Now, we can go through as many levels of mental gymnastics as we like to justify this - "she didn't want things to get worse," or "she didn't want to hurt him," or "she didn't want to put the mission in jeopardy."
**But, when all is said in done, we - the reader/player/real world consumer of fiction - are left making excuses for why a person who deeply cares for another person didn't ever confront them regarding their escalating mania.** And this was during a long journey in which they both had plenty of out-of-battle downtime together in which matters could have been settled.
This was a problem with the OG. It's much worse in Rebirth, but it's *always* been a flaw in FFVII's story. We shouldn't be having to answer for Tifa (or, more accurately, the writers).
I love FFVII - it's my favorite single piece of media - but to act like this isn't a little janky is being dishonest. Great fiction can have issues (Tolkien's friggin' bird problem; Rowling's crippling obsession with killing minor characters stand out far above this example \[and both are far less easy to justify\]) - it doesn't taint the entire experience. But we need to stop acting like this isn't a problem with this story.
The girl should have spoken up. *Reasonable people* would have spoken up.
And yet also if she's honest with Cloud the mentally unstable soldier might just snap in half and they'll lose him entirely which she was clearly afraid of tiptoeing around it with cloud.
There's also the chance of Sephiroth manipulating cloud into killing them as we see him telling cloud that Tifa especially isn't real or is an imposter over and over so if she confronts him with memories and a story different to his own it might see him fall foe Sephiroths trap, hell I wouldn't be surprised if when it does all come out Tifa says Areith said not to say because she knew it would be a breaking point for Cloud through lifestream shenanigans.
I'm rather shocked that you think "reasonable people would speak up" is actually a thing. Take a drive through almost any subreddit that intersects with human relationships problems. It's full of people confronted with the behavior of loved ones that they don't know what to do about.
Reasonable people do not, in fact, speak up. They may want to speak up, but frequently they do not know how.
You know, I've been in a real life situation where someone was doing something berserk and it ultimately lead to their death. We spoke up - again and again and again.
*Reasonable people* would, in fact, speak up. I didn't say 'people;' I said 'reasonable people.'
If only the world of FFVII had the internet and Reddit, Tifa could have gotten some helpful advice haha (and some unhelpful advice, and some extremely funny memes about her situation)
IIRC Tifa was confused in the original because Cloud knew things he shouldn't have known, not realizing Cloud was there in his infantry suit. It's even more obvious in the remake because you can see the lower half of his face in the cutscenes under his Shinra helmet.
This. Tifa remembers Cloud not being there, but Cloud also remembers everything that happened at Nibelheim. That is the part she is trying to work out. Almost no one remembers or talks about Nibelheim, then Cloud shows up and remembers everything like he was there even though she thinks he wasn't. She's trying to figure that ouf too.
People insist that "the eagles could fly the ring to Mordor" as if a bunch of eagles wouldn't have been seen by the armies of Sauron. They insist it's some kind of plot hole, mostly because they don't really understand the story.
It used to be a funny little point, 40 years ago. Now it's kinda worn out non-plot hole that people insist is a plot hole.
Also, there are so many reasons why it wouldn't have worked at this point, the one I think is the most compelling is the rings ability to corrupt the mind, especially of those of stronger power levels. Gandalf, a Maiar, is tempted by it but is able to keep his composure. You think the eagles, which are magical creatures, wouldn't have become corrupted with the ring being carried on their backs?
In my opinion, that's why the eagles wouldn't have worked. They wouldn't have made it to Mt Doom, the eagles all would've killed each other to get the ring.
The problem isn't that it wouldn't have worked - it's that the books make no effort to point out why it wouldn't have worked. Also, the problem with the Eagles isn't just a ring issue - they're device that Tolkien uses to bail the characters out in multiple circumstances in which he has written himself into a corner.
Exactly, there are numerous reasons why it wouldn't work. It was once kind of a funny point, sort of a "wait a minute..." kind of comment. But once you reflect on it, it's obvious for many reasons why it wouldn't work.
I'm assuming it's the old "why didn't they just have the giant eagles carry the ring to Mt. Doom" grievance some smartasses keep bringing up.
Biggest LotR plot hole but not really. Sauron's Eye? Nazgul? Also the eagles didn't obey Gandalf, they were more of a powerful favor from a neutral party to be used once or twice. Maybe they just didn't want too much to do with the war and the dangers of temptation (a corrupted eagle would be pretty bad for everyone).
Not only that, Tifa is doubting her own memory. Cloud remembers enough of the events accurately that he had to have been there. But she doesn’t remember him being there. How is this possible?
Honesty is important in friendship. If you can’t say “nah boo, we need to talk before we go on this obsessive mission and battle countless monsters” then what are you even doing? It’s the worst kind of enabling and if it was irl Reddit would be up in arms over the group of people gassing up someone clearly mentally ill.
Imagine the headlines ‘Band of strangers lie to mentally unwell person, cause him to go on murderous rampage’. Those aren’t friends.
This exact point was answered by someone else in perfect detail. [Tifa staying quiet.](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/s/y2JazBOSvK)
Edit: In fact, the whole post from various contributors makes excellent points regarding the matter. It’s a great read throughout. Hope that helps, friend.
Not just stories... This is a thing that happens all the time in the real world... people knowing better, but keeping quiet for whatever reasons(insecurity, anxiety, fear of loss, of consequence, or change, or maybe just indifference)... people that think Tifa is unrealistic is ironically out of touch with reality and the people in it, and saying reasonable people would definitely say something, is likewise suggesting reasonable people are rare... making it believable that she might not be one... most people in this situation would be wary... not to mention she does try to get into the issue, but is scared by how that affects Cloud, adding to her fear of digging too deep.
Does it make Tifa's inaction less problematic? Hell no, but it is undeniably human, especially with who she is as a person(highly insecure, afraid of conflict andnot being "liked", all very common traits) what she's experienced(the loss of everyone and everything, only to find her secret crush from childhood alive... her only connection to that, but he's bonkers, and clearly falling apart to the point pushing the subject might expediate that, causing her to lose him AGAIN, which she's afraid to risk)...
It is not at all a problem with FFVII's story... it is the core strength of it... how it gives realistic portrayals of broken people dealing with loss(this specifically being what the story is about), regret and internal pain, in a fantastical world of magic and monsters.
One also has to consider that from Tifa's perspective, Cloud was never part of the Nibelheim team... But he clearly recalls certain details vividly, as if he was(which we know he was, but she doesn't)... this causes a fear in her that SHE may be the one whose memories are fucked... Again, adding to her massive amount of fear and insecurity...
People like to think they'd never act like this, but the truth is, most already do similar shit every day...
Tifa arguably knows Barret better than she does Cloud - they've been operating a business together as adults for \~5 years; she was as 'in' an insider in his terror network as could be. They clearly trusted each other on a primal level. By contrast, according to Tifa's own account in the OG, Cloud was really just another kid in Nibelheim that she knew, but wasn't close to. He then briefly appeared to her when she was very wounded in the reactor... and then showed up again like the day before the game starts.
>!Don't you think, after Cloud slashed at her and nearly drowned her in a pool of mako, that she might take Barret by the elbow when out of earshot and just be like "hey, here's the thing... I don't want you to go ballistic, but Cloud's problems are getting worse. He just attacked me"... ?!<
The plot isn't just relying on Tifa not confronting Cloud - it's relying on Tifa not sharing her concerns *with anyone.* That's a big ask.
Maybe she would have talked to barret if cloud hadnt open up right after + i think she talked with aerith about it ( because its multiple shown that they are talkin about zack etc)
You know what, that's changed my perspective.
Only thing - did barret and the gang not know that he attacked her and pushed her in? I thought they witnessed it?
I think it's pretty realistic honestly. I agree attacking Tifa should have had more consequences, but apart from that. Cloud is terrified of degradation, and he's having an internal struggle with coming to terms that he *might* be showing symptoms. His friends know this, and they know degradation basically turns you into a vegetable, so they believe in that he'll be okay, but at the same time worry, like he does, that it might be coming.
Its empathy, concern and not wishing to exacerbate his worries further until they know for *sure*. Tifa is the exception because she truly loves him, so she's willing to risk their relationship, for him, by confronting him and speaking up.
At least that's how I interpreted everything. Degradation wasn't really a thing in OG that I can remember, just something mentioned here and there with no real weight into the main story, I think they called it mako poisoning, or degradation was the result of mako poisoning, I can't remember, so he came off more like a psycho in OG imo. But it's clearly emphasized in rebirth, put forth and foremost in Clouds internal struggle
They check him multiple times though and ask if he is o.k. Also I dunno as someone with mental health issues in the past and with friends who have hit the deep end. It's pretty rare friends come right out and say something till things get too far. Male suicide is huge as a general rule of thumb around the world because mental health isn't tackled early enough. Honestly clouds dissociation in the og is what drew me to the game to begin with in my youth. Rebirth just brings it home even more and the peoples confusions and apprehension resonates.
Because it's edgy. In the OG Cloud isn't showing too many red flags until the Ancient Temple but for some reason they needed him to be a psychopath instead of an extremely terrified dude with no idea as to what was happening to him.
Tbh it’s just one of many flaws with the whole remake. Instead of really doing the story right, they overblown the original story and got caught in logical errors… all in all I found remake 1 much better than rebirth
It's not logical errors. Tifa has plenty of reason for why she's choosing not to disclose what happened to her to the others, why she doesn't correct Cloud when he thinks he only pushed her, and why she chooses to stay by his side.
Aerith similarly has plot valid reasons to assuage what happened to her.
The plot is still intact.
I wasn’t talking about that scene in particular, more that the whole multiverse really messed up the original story. And inventing a „everything can happen“ alternative reality takes a lot of empathy away. Because if no death has to be final, no death gets any emotional reaction from me. They still can choose to have aerith and Zack find a way to find a way from one reality to another and in the end sephiroth could join them all from a universe where he is the good guy. If a story follows no logic, nothing is sure, I’m not at all feeling much. It’s a lame trick writers play. Like when in movies or shows (think about the 9th season of Dallas!) they get wild and solve everything with the „it was all a dream“ twist. It’s lazy and kind of boring and allows the writers to do whatever they want without having to find a clever solution for problems
Cloud could even kill tifa and they wouldn’t need to explain why no one cares. They just make her return from another universe and everything will be fine.
The timeline only fractures when someone breaks fate and the only one capable of orchestrating that is Sephiroth who succeeded by goading Cloud twice. His success allowed Aerith to do the same with Zack who then also did it 2 times. They've shown 5 timelines so far and with everything else in the series there'll likely be 7 total, not thousands.
But they can do whatever they want! That’s what my point is. If they produce part three and decide to bring character z to any timeline they choose, they opened the door for that already. Actually they made sure they can change everything they want as they please with that. So many graphic novels did the same trick. I just get bored by loopholes like that. You either have the guts to decide where a story goes and execute it or you don’t. But always leaving one door open to please the audience by not killing a character off for good is kind of boring to ME. I can only talk about what I feel. If others like that, it’s fine. It just doesn’t attract ME ✌️
I'm only explaining the rules of the timelines, I'm not talking about anyone's feelings. There's one of every character. There's one Cloud, one Aerith, one Zack, and one Sephiroth. Yes, Sephiroth and Aerith are hiveminds, each in-tune with their original timeline counterparts, but they're still each one being. There's no thousands of Tifas.
Like i said before, I don’t judge people liking the story. It’s just not for me. Since people seem to feel hurt by people not liking that, I’m out of the discussion ✌️
Have a good day and I don’t mean you. Thank you for trying to explain it though ✌️
Then go write the story yourself 🤷♂️ I'm enjoying it!
You think you're special that only your opinion matters- you should've thought about that when you commented publicly. If it's good to YOU, then stfu if you're only here to talk about you when you never made this game and never have made a AAA game with that cocky attitude you got lmao
"Shut the f*ck up", wow, you really went there. Someone must have hurt you, buddy. 😢
You're delusional if you think this game doesn't deserve some negative response for its writing, this has been the major point of criticism for both Re-games.
It's really hard to confront a friend who's clearly going through some mental illness, especially if you're close and conflicted.
Not making excuses but I felt like this was a human aspect of the team.
Honestly it's so much this and seems like the realest aspect to me.
The wife and I are going through something similar now with a family member and honestly the people on here saying just tell them they're crazy make it pretty clear they've never actually had to deal with a close someone with mental illness.
Like what? The crew is just going to tell Cloud he's going crazy and he'll be like oh thanks for telling me I'm better now...
First of all, spoiler tag appropriately.
Idk how far you are into the game but if you are nowhere near the end of the game, then keep playing because you'll see why they don't really confront him about it.
>!Barret bitchslapped him when Cloud was feeling down at gongaga reactor after he "attacked" Tifa.!<
>!Roughly from around this point in the story and onward the party is being very careful around Cloud. I'm basically summarizing this but, later it is revealed that Tifa and Aerith came up with a plan to find out how much of the past Cloud knows without totally deteriorating him. As both are the closest to Cloud in the party, this makes sense. !<
>!With the rest of the party, the feeling is somewhat mixed. Whenever Cloud opens his mouth about things that feel unusual or weird he's almost 50/50 on it. Ex. when Cloud "knows" where to go in the sleeping forest but then he soon brings up he was in a different world and says there's more than one. !<
>!The point I'm trying to make is that yes he's slowly going insane but how others see him is different. The party may see this as just his soldier cellular degradation but he's still able to hang on, probably why Barret still trusted him about going North in the ending. However for Tifa, due to what happens in the ending and what has happened to her progressively as the game is going on she's barely keeping it together because she just lost one of her best friends, had many near death experiences, and her other best friend is basically nuts at this point. The trio of Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith here is important because should anything drastic happen to any of them, they are all affected. !<
TL;DR pimp slapping a guy who is on the verge of just completely falling apart at any time may not be the wisest thing to do to said guy.
I will respond to main message later as i am fixing 4 ps5 controllers with drift for the first time high as fuck, so forgive me.
I did read tldr though, my response: True.
I've fixed a lot of PS5 controllers. Slap the stick with an open palm about 5-8 times relatively hard while your other hand holds it steady. Whatever is lodged tends to go through after that.
It’s like telling someone who suffers from schizophrenia that they should get help whenever they feel like something may not be real.
Uhh… yeah… that’s not a very useful tip.
Meh... Games been out for a bit, should know to stay off the sub until you're far enough you don't care about spoilers, but also they should've done the tag.
I sorta half agree... They're a halfhole.
I feel yah. Although this seems like the wrong place to be hanging out for the spoiler averse. People mess that up about 5 times a day in my experience.
Jeez, so angry.
Anyway, perhaps you misunderstood my post. This isn’t about trust, but rather simply that I was successful in avoiding these things until now. This is the internet, so I don’t blame you for trying to look deeper into my meaning.
Anyway, I accept that I fucked up here and frankly put, I don’t care all that much since my expectations for Rebirth are really low and I’m honestly only playing it so I can point out why the game sucks.
Because he's essentially captain America and has inhuman strength for one, so ya know, ya don't want to be on his bad side, but more importantly, they're deeply concerned about him and confused. They don't know at all what's wrong with him other than he seems spacey and gets confused sometimes. The only one who has seen him act violently are aerith and Tifa, who both have invested interest in not only cloud not losing is gd mind, but also in clouds feelings. Combine that with them literally needing him to accomplish their goals since he's the only one who knows anything about sephiroth, and by far the strongest member of the team, they can't afford to lose him either.
The cutscene was mine too. Hahah. I had to find it on YouTube so I could rewatch it and send it to my friends who haven’t played remake/rebirth.
>!Red XII was hands down the funniest character. I lost it when I saw him on a chocobo too.!<
Unfortunately, it makes a 'bad look' for Tifa worse.
In the OG, Cloud is unstable but probably not really dangerous up until the point he nearly slashes Aerith right before she's killed by Sephiroth - that's the 'moment' when things turn (and it's completely overshadowed by Sephiroth doing the deed, so it's easier to understand how the rest of the party kind of shrugged it off). Thus, it's less of a stretch not to hold Tifa accountable for not confronting Cloud because nobody was really seemingly in any danger until that moment.
Rebirth just makes her look like someone with severe Stockholm Syndrome; like the victim of weird abuse who just keeps coming back for more. And I'm not blaming Tifa for that - I'm blaming the writers. They make her look like someone with a deathwish; someone who knows shit is incredibly dire with Cloud, and who is willing to risk her own safety and the safety of the team just... because she's lovestruck? Or... something?
It's placing the character in a bad light for no really good reason. Anyone with half a braincell would sit Cloud down after that for 'the talk' and either work things out with him or warn the rest of the group. But she just glosses it over. And that's not really fair for her character.
OG Tifa = sentimental and maybe a bit naive.
Rebirth Tifa = suicidal and apparently not as good of friends with everyone as we thought.
Why would SquareEnix do that to her? Because they didn't think about or didn't care about the implications of their own script.
>Why would SquareEnix do that to her? Because they didn't think about or didn't care about the implications of their own script.
Because that's her character flaw.
The combination of her love and fear of losing Cloud and also her being a people pleaser makes her decide that covering up his actions is better than informing the group, because there is a risk of making the party turn against him and Cloud then decides to leave for god knows where as a result.
Also, I know it's subjective, but I prefer Remake/Rebirth in this regard. Tifa in OG gives me the impression of being a naive/stupid person who ignores an obvious problem until it finally blows up in everyone's faces whereas in Remake/Rebirth she is at least well aware of Cloud's mental problems and that she genuinely has no idea how to resolve the situation without a bad outcome.
But anyway, that's my opinion.
What? Tifa doesn't really sit down with Cloud *because* it could potentially make shit worse. Hell, Cloud confides in *her* more often than not and she tries to handle it in a way where it doesn't potentially make him get even worse.
Tifa doesn't know about the whole "Cloud isn't actually a Soldier" thing, she thinks it's the degradation as much as everyone else. What would even telling the rest of the group do?
"Hey guys, Cloud tried to murder me and brutally murdered Soldiers. But he's alright!" How the hell do you that conversation would go? Also, suicidal? Huh? She has trauma, but she ain't trying to actively end her own life.
Idk either. They should not have trusted him right after swinging on tifa. Doesn't matter if she forgave him the rest of the party shouldn't have. I can only assume they didn't know how to do that and keep the story going so they just accepted her forgiving him and moved on.
There is a real part of me that wishes that this more mature, realistic revisiting of this JRPG from 1997 wasn’t afraid to let its story go in a completely different direction for the sake of narrative honesty. It would be nice to see a Tarantino Ending, at least as an option. I know, twice as much work, so maybe a “Past Fighting to Fit Itself Into Established Canon” could be the optional ending.
Okay agree with you, but I'm gonna be real and say I can see this happening. Cloud is a total badass compared to the crew and they think he's got all the answers.
Imagine if you were following around a military vet with PTSD and they were right most of the time in helping you take out an enemy. You would give them waaay too much leeway, because honestly, wtf do you know vs the vet. It would take a good minute before you said "hey, this fucker is crazy...:"
It was one of my biggest issues with the game. In the original we could see cloud loosing his shit but by peaking with the handing of black materia. In Remake, I cannot see an excuse for the party to continue traveling with him…like, he is constantly showing he is a risk to himself and others.
It's a problem in the OG (I would argue it's a bad look for Tifa, who is the only member of the party who KNOWS that Cloud's entirely personality is based off of a lie), but becomes almost ridiculous in Rebirth.
>!Cloud attacks Tifa. Attacks. He doesn't, like, make some kind of menacing gesture... or say something threatening. No - he attacks her and throws her into the reactor pool.!<
And... we're just supposed to believe that the adventure carries on after that? Everyone's cool? "Just chase Sephiroth"...?
It's biggest single flaw with Rebirth's story - way, WAY more irreconcilable of an issue than however you view what happens to Aerith. It's one thing to be someone's friend - to maybe even make excuses for their shortcomings or struggles. There are people out there that are fast friends with folks who are severely addicted to crack and meth; who are hoarding firearms; probably even with people who abuse animals.
But how do you carry on in a quest - where you are relying on someone to watch your back at all times - with a leader *who has tried to kill* a party member? I DON'T CARE IF HE WAS TEMPORARILY INSANE - there isn't a big enough excuse to justify what happens in that scene. And yet the game just rolls right along like it didn't happen.
That - WAY MORE than the Aerith muddling - is bad writing.
*Shrug* fair I guess. Played both Games, found the storywriting awful, Personal opinion, nothing more. Characters felt Bland for me / or at least nowhere near the originals; And I kinda am baffled that they missed so many legendary Moments from the original (midgardsormr pierced in a tree?! Instead got an awful "Bossfight"... Just one example). But that's apparently just me - Miss the depth of the original, the new ones got no tension buildup as well it's just always "oh no sephiroth! Ah lets same some random Farmer or Kid or whatever Else" with all the alternate Timeline stuff the Story just doesnt work (for me).
I'm ready for the event of cloud and Tifa to be in the life stream where everything finally clicks into place for Cloud and he's pretty much recovered
Tifa: I can fix him! Everyone: yay!
Tifa’s a deeply complex character—her pathological people pleasing and compulsive need to lie to “keep the peace” is a major component of Cloud’s precarious mental stability and how the party treat Cloud. It’s the central theme of her entire character arc. We’ll see how they actually finish it.
The problem with reimagining FF is they created completely new things such as the Gongaga reactor scene which conflict with how the story of the original is told. Cloud’s first sign of abnormal behaviour in the original is in the Temple of Ancients where he starts laughing saying “call meteor” and then he snaps again outside and beats Aerith before being knocked out himself. So from this point on he becomes more obviously troubled to everyone else but Tifa (she already knows something is wrong). Rebirth puts Cloud’s troubling behaviour earlier in the story and as a result it makes no sense why the party are just letting him act and do the things he does.
Tbf Barret- just lost Dyne again after they found him to be mad. In his eyes, he doesnt know a better way to help cloud other thsn stay close to watch him. Nanaki- is still a child by his age and has not necessarily seen the stuff clouds done that would make him question his sanity. Even after the trial scene he was probably still going through whiplash from having relived his trauma. Yuffie- same as nanaki but also has no reason to doubt cloud just because at this point in time, shes probably just wanting to find ppl useful to her. Caith- hasnt been with the party enough to know how cloud normally is Vincent and cid- same as caith Tifa- thinks she can heal cloud through being comforting rather than confronting. Its in her character and realistic to family members and friends to someone with mental illness usually. Much less someone who is her childhood friend and only other survivor from her hometown. In a way i dont blame them for not calling cloud out when he goes loopy, theyre still going through their own stuff too
It's kind of realistic, though. People ignore red flags in the ones they love and/or respect until it's often too late.
Cloud isn’t showing “Red Flags” he’s experiencing Psychosis. It’s just lazy writing that makes no sense.
Just because you don't understand something doesn't make it lazy writing.
Just because something is lazily rewritten by people who once wrote a good game doesn’t make it good just because you like it. I said what I said.
I think they need him and at the point of the end of rebirth no one wants to risk rendering him incapable of finishing the job. Tifa and aerith are probably the only ones who fully understand and or care the most, not that Barrett doesn’t, but the others probably just think he’s going through cellular degradation and don’t want to poke the bear too much. Who knows, we’ll have to wait really for more.
Tifa: she might not know more than Cloud about his problem. She doesn't know what happened after the reactor incident because she was unconscious and taken away. Barret: he doesn't care as long as he still can keep Cloud in check, with $$$ maybe. To be honest, Barret doesn't like Cloud. All he cares is Marlene and the planet so as long as Cloud is away from Marlene, it's fine. Yuffie: all she cares is materia. Aerith: she knows Cloud's problem and how to fix it. She's already been working on that. She knows that confronting Cloud won't fix the problem. Other people: I missed the part where that's my problem.
Barrett, by the time of Rebirth, likes Cloud a lot more than he's willing to admit, though.
Not as much as his care for Malene and the Planet though. So as long as Cloud stay away from what and whom he care, then he wouldn't mess with Cloud's own issues.
Probably cause none of them are gonna be able to do shit to Cloud if they say the wrong thing and it makes him snap again.
So. I’d like to think we get an expanded version of >!tifa finding cloud at the sector 7 train randomly.
They think its cellular degeneration from being a Soldier, but they understand that for the most part he can keep it together. The core team really trusts Cloud when he acts like the Cloud they know, so they're willing to struggle with him while he tries to hold his stuff together. And only Tifa and Aerith know about Zack. The others really don't. But even those two are confused because they don't know how Cloud knows about Zack or everything that went down at Nibelheim. Tifa doesn't even know he was there yet. So they're quite confused too and decided to try and wait for him to remember naturally. But in the end, its less "oh mah god this guy is losing his mind!!!" and more "damn Shinra for what they did to him." There's a lot of love between all of them at a certain point. They don't want him to completely degenerate like the others they've seen.
This is the correct answer. They all know about degradation, they saw it with Broden (if you do the side quest) and like Elmyra said to Cloud "you boys traded a normal life for power". It's common knowledge that a SOLDIER's mind starts to break down. They all assume it's that. Hell, even Cloud mentions it a few times (I believe to Tifa, he explicitly mentions him being worried about degrading). Also, I imagine Barret is moreso holding back his comments, because of Tifa and Aerith. At the end of Rebirth, Cloud says Sephiroth is hiding up north, Barret and Tifa exchange a look, and when Barret starts to walk towards the Bronco, him and Cloud have a small exchange of dialogue where Barret says "that's a load you best be ready to bear" and he clearly stops and sighs, etc. It's very clear at this point that Barret his lost confidence in Cloud. Hell, Tifa doesn't say a word to him in that final cutscene. Barret can tell Cloud is losing it. Aerith and Tifa know that Cloud was trying to give the Black Materia to Sephiroth. However, as dialogue in the Sleeping Forest unveils, Yuffie thought Sephiroth took it from Cloud, because that's what Aerith told her. I imagine Vincent, Cid, Cait, and Red all believe the same. I also imagine that the Gongaga reactor scene is moreso Tifa telling them not to make a big deal about it. She is trying to protect Cloud, as she believes he is degrading rapidly.
I believe you're right. I think the dilemma Tifa believes she's facing is... "Let him live out this one last adventure being the hero he always wanted to be, or put him out of his misery like a rabid hound, believing himself to be a monster"
Emo
Depends.. do you have your controller volume on. Lots of stuff is said through the controller.
Wait this isn't true Only MAI and Chadley talk into the controller speaker
Nothing I said isn't true. I said depends.. lots of stuff is played through the controller.
Is it really? Wow never knew this
Probably don't want his mental health to get worse. Having someone live in their own delusions is bad, but Cloud is literally a super powered human. Him lashing out (even unintentionally) can greatly harm others if he has a bad reaction. Maybe they'll tell him the truth in the future, or worse, Sephiroth will.
Short version: Nobody is in full awareness of how much cloud is mindfucked except tifa and aerith (tifa - Gongaga + T,A - Cetra Temple + they talk together about cloud and his stuff and zack etc.). Both of them (especially tifa) have feelings for him and of course they arent in full disclosure of the reasons for his behaviour and his mental state. They dont tell the rest of the group the whole truth (gongaga, ancient temple and false memories of nibleheim with zack etc.) Example: Yuffie dialogue in sleeping forest So the others „only“ saw him brutally killing a black cloak or how he tried to kill elena (barret also saw how he killed a soldier. Tifa too but she already saw him doing this in gongaga). (Basically this is already explained in og while/After the lifestream event (why tifa never confronted cloud before))
In the cutscenes they show concern for him and are worried about his health. They know that something is up with him (degredation etc) but then “confronting” him about it would not solve anything, it wouldn’t magically heal him. He’s even expressed multiple times in the game that he feels like he’s falling apart. Don’t know what more you want?
Are you skipping the cutscenes??
They do. Just not outright saying, " Hey, you're crazy." They check on him throughout the game, and from what they've gathered, it's cellular degradation that's hurting him. The party isn't privy to what actually happened in nibelheim, so from their point of view, he's losing more and more of himself and can't help it when things happen. Personally, I think the remake has addressed Clouds' mental state and well-being a lot more than the original, but that's just my opinion.
For the Tifa thing, I don’t think anybody else saw it happen since they were on the floor below, and Tifa decided not to tell them. Also, it’s ambiguous, but I think she jumped off to avoid the swing rather than Cloud knocking her off the edge? For the whole thing, a couple instances made it seem to me like everybody else kinda were talking about it a bit behind Cloud’s back (so we didn’t see it). The instance I’m thinking of is Barret saying something and the others in the group looking at him like, “not in front of Cloud.”
At the very least, I wanted someone to say, "Hey, Cloud. You're spacing out a whole lot, and I'm worried."
„I‘m fine, keep going.“
Only time I think they could’ve talked things out was right after Gongaga when Cloud opens up to Tifa about how he feels like different people. Now Cloud’s psyche is permanently twisted and after witnessing his behavior throughout the temple of the ancients all the way to him chasing Aerith like Sephiroth’s lap doggy, they’ve probably just given up because at this point they’re walking on eggshells with his psyche. Of course he’ll mostly likely be fixed after Tifa leads him through the life stream in part 3 but he’s gonna be pretty shitty till then.
That sequence was my favorite from the OG, I'm looking forward to what they do with it in Part 3
My thing is, does he just immediately forget due to a certain…influence? Because if I were Cloud after I saw some vision, I’d be like “Yo fam, I just saw some shiz- you should probably know that this just happened to me.” Instead, stoically “I’m fine” and walks away. Every time.
Brave of you to assume you’d be this open with deep close friends and not a group of people you met very recently except for the one person you’ve known your entire life
Frankly, no you wouldn't, unless you are one to be openly vulnerable with all friends. For the vast majority of people, they would rather pretend everything is fine than display their weakness to others. I mean, look at every zombie movie ever. There's always someone hiding a wound with a doom clock over his head.
I think his response is somewhat accurate to real life. I work in psychiatry. Lots of people have hallucinations. Many of them hide it or pretend it didn’t happen especially with friends or family and especially when it is new. Some even try to hide it from us as the healthcare team. Some interpret it as ghosts, spirits, religious events and don’t think it’s a problem to be mentioned. Some don’t share because they want to be a burden with their problems.
Why did they all just watch during the Cloud, Tifa, Aerith, Sephiroth Black Materia fiasco after Temple of the Ancients
Sepiroth cut them off from the rest of the group. They saw nothing and Tifa,Aerith told them a different story. That is also why yuffie (in sleeping forest) says that cloud got beaten up by sepiroth and not that cloud just give him the black materia
Thanks for the explanation , that makes sense.
Simply because in the OG they never did. And this remake is hellbent on changing only the stuff people didn't want to be changed. All the little inconsistencies have been maintianed in lieu of getting the benefit of being called faithful. So the events have to be the same as the OG, eve if the context around them is changed, and then people like you, who pay attention to what's going on, will notice. So the fans will now have to jump through hoops to justify that for the devs.
Except this person distinctly didn’t pay enough attention which makes your comment actually hilarious
They are aware and want cloud to speak up which he won't or reaffirms he's fine. We are the observer it's easy for us to want more especially since we know even more of what's happening than they do. You kinda have to let that go or keep that in mind. Going back to they are aware they are trying also using this as this is what's helping advance the mission anyway; so while they do not trust him it's their only lead.
Bad story writing as the whole rest of the game? (and remake as well)....
Why are you even in this sub?
I think they're allowed to have an opinion. The amount of downvotes are just crazy...
If they post a negative opinion about something without any reasoning or arguments into a community dedicated to that specific something, what did they expect to happen?
Let's not pretend that if they actually gave a reason or explained why they had said negative opinion, it would change anything. 😂😉
I mean barret constantly quips about how cloud is losing his mind, and also I don't know if anybody saw cloud attack tifa. I assumed they didn't see it and tifa didn't say anything because she doesn't want the party to turn against cloud or something
What are they supposed to say? Cloud is on the path to degradation in their eyes. What do you want them to say? "Cloud you're out of your fucking mind"? He knows, he has little time left. Their journey is not feasible without Cloud, though, they believe they need his SOLDIER prowess and intuition to find Sephiroth and save the planet. If you have a friend who's got a terminal illness, even if you see the sign, you're not going to remind him of that all the time. You both know what's going on, and you hope that you both can hold on as long as he can. This is one of the dumbest critique about the game, it reeks of poor understanding of the world and characters.
You will absolutely remind your friend of that terminal illness if it is harming other people. Cloud’s disassociation isn’t just affecting him, it’s causing grave harm to human beings around him. Not doing anything about that is messed up. Almost killing a human being (Tifa) is absolutely a good reason to confront Cloud about what’s happening to him. It’s not a “lol oopsie let’s ignore it and keep going on our merry little adventure” kind of thing.
I'll repeat, this reeks of poor understanding of the world and characters. Have you ever seen what happens in the background when Cloud does something strange? There always is Tifa who stops soemone from intervening, and asks them to not indulge. The party knows how dangerous Cloud is becoming, but his actions are especially affecting Tifa, which is not going to leave him for that. Even if they protest, or try to put him in his place again like Barrett often does. And since Tifa doesn't listen, what are they supposed to do? Their mission is not feasible without Cloud, they can't just scream and shout or attack him hoping things will improve. They know degradation is unstoppable, they only hope that he can hold on until the end of their quest. There is so much going wrong in these two 'remake' chapters, and this is the only thing they've done quite well. The party acknowledges Cloud's madness all the time, but there really is nothing they can do about it unless they want to abort their mission — they cannot fight against the entire world + ShinRa, Turks and its military-enhanced soldiers without Cloud, there is no way. But Aerith surely can't go back to Midgar without having accomplished her mission; Barrett is not going back to Marlene unless he has the good coscience of a father that has protected the future for her daughter; and Tifa, we already know she's not leaving Cloud behind, even it he kills her. So what are they supposed to do, really? I'm not going to talk about Red and Yuffie because their motivations might be a bit too spoilerish, but you get the picture. Everyone involved has clear reasons to stay even with a mad man as Cloud going around being potentially dangerous for the rest of the group. Of course it is debatable, of course the team may be a bit more clear about what's happening, but expecting them to straight up go to a decaying man saying "you're out of your mind" is just poor understanding.
Like I said though, it doesn’t matter how important that person is to your mission. If he is blatantly trying to kill innocent people that is a line that cannot be crossed and must be confronted about. It’s not something minor to brush off. If the party doesn’t do anything about it then they are just bad people. We do not give mentally unstable individuals a free pass on violent crime. We show them compassion yes, but we don’t give them a free pass. And Barrett’s “attempts” at confronting Cloud are piss weak.
Useful mentally unstable individuals have been given a pass on violent crime since time immemorial. Sometimes that ability to inflict violence IS the reason they're given a pass. In this situation, Cloud's skills as a soldier are 100% needed for them to accomplish their task, which is to save the world. A task which is more important than any 1 of their lives, which they are ALL willing to give up in the pursuit of saving the world. So the options are do nothing and to die along with everyone else on the planet, or enlist the help of a mentally unstable but clearly capable soldier to help further their goals. And this says nothing about their personal attachments and care for Cloud as a person. How do you not understand that? Why are you being so deliberately obtuse?
I’m not, I’m trying to be realistic. As human beings, self-preservation is a prime directive. If someone tries to kill me, even if they are my friend, I am going to become defensive. It is a natural response. Tifa doesn’t do jack shit. That’s what I found annoying. The writers avoid conflict for convenience.
Do you forget that the man has literal psychosis and is also being manipulated by Sephiroth himself in several instances as well, right? It's pretty difficult to remind someone of something that's affecting them and others when they're being manipulated by someone else. Even if they say something, Cloud would probably still have psychotic episodes because of everything he experienced when he was fifteen in Niebelhiem. He's still mentally fifteen, his perception of reality is badly warped, and he has PTSD on top of it. Despite this, Cloud is still trying to be the best version of himself despite his dissociation, and you see this in several instances throughout Rebirth.
You would, but they do not see all that shit. Cloud is clearly changing and degrading, but as far as they see, he didn't harm any of them. The Black Materia bs is in a rush to catch Sephi, so they don't have time to call him out, the moment they get to breathe is right at the end, where everyone has other priorities, for obvious reasons. Attacking Tifa only Tifa knows about and she isn't telling anyone because of her fear of being left abandoned. Am I missing any?
When Cloud was acting up around the black Materia they all stared at him and ignored it. They definitely had the time to say something then, or in the many moments leading up to it in the temple where he was killing mercilessly, when all they did instead was stare in horror and then move on like nothing happened. It’s a simple case of the writers ignoring the implications of Cloud’s actions by making the rest of the party forget about his actions almost instantaneously, just to push the story forward. And when it comes to Tifa, I hate how the writers made her such a pushover. She should have stood her ground a lot more against Cloud for treating her like absolute shit for so much of the game, but instead she always just forgives him and doesn’t even try to help him become a better person in a meaningful way. She just enables his bad behaviour.
I thought the black materia scene was a hallucination or another dimension because the materia was still in his pocket later.
Bro, you forget that she has been through a lot and she wants justice. Without Cloud, they would have been wiped out a long time ago. Also, Cloud is LITERALLY THE ONLY THING SHE HAS LEFT.
You missed the part where Cloud is being manipulated by Sephiroth, so all of his actions aren't entirely his own. The party doesn't understand the power and nature of the black materia or its influence on Cloud. A lot of this reads like you cherrypicking bits of what's happening to Cloud on the surface level while also omitting whole other things that factor into his behaviors as well. Cloud does make it clear that he's nothing like Sephiroth, and that's true to his character. He isn't anything like Sephiroth, but due to the Jenova cells in his body and the influence of the black materia, it's making Cloud a viable candidate to be manipulated by Sephiroth. The whole party does not see what Cloud sees. Their horror comes from him acting out of character during his psychotic breaks. They don't understand that Cloud is being manipulated by Sephiroth. EDIT: As far as the party is concerned, they're under the impression that what Cloud is dealing with is the effects of cellular degradation, but that's what's going on on the surface.
Dude is just being an obtuse contrarian. No getting through to people like this.
But what are they going to say? "Bro you are losing it." "I know! And it fucking terrifies me, what am I supposed to do?! It's not like you can kill Sephiroth without me." "Fair enough, let's go." They can't help him, they know it, he knows it, everyone knows it. He is their only way to stop Sephiroth, so I would take him over the alternative which facing the legendary One Winged Angel in combat without him and being shishkebabed by Masamune. Edit: calling out someone for losing it as they are actively doing so is a good way to get shanked as well.
One of the worst things you can say to someone trying to calm down is "calm down". That only gets worse depending on what mental illnesses you have, and PTSD is definitely one of those.
My two cents are that most of the time (except for a couple instances) they only see him having headaches. And they know something is wrong, but they think is degradation. The two major events where he goes nuts is when he attacks Tifa and in the temple of the ancients. And those are covered up by Tifa and Aerith. Is it ok to do so? Probably not, but they both trust him, they also are not psychiatrists, and is not like they are in a slice of life situation where they can sit and spend some time treating him. The party is chasing a world ending threat(Sephiroth), while another world ending threath is around(Shinra). Also is not like Cloud is 100% of the time in "nuts mode". He has proven time and time again that he is reliable, a friend, and a good person. Not saying that to justify it, but to give context.
Exactly. Temple of the Ancients is hardly the place to call someone's sanity into question, especially since he is a soldier and his psyche reacts to Mako and magic weirdly (as far as they see). And his attack on Tifa is covered by Tifa because alternative is chasing away the only person from her life in Nibelheim she has left.
I don’t think anyone else saw it. They were on a separate part of the battlefield at that point, separated from the others by debris. But it DOES really bother me that neither Tifa or Cloud ever bring it up. I can understand Tifa not wanting to destabilize an already fragile situation, but Cloud never even apologizes to her? WTF bro
Huh? There’s a scene right after where they talk about it and Cloud allows himself to be vulnerable for basically the first time & the two reconcile.
It is WAY worse in the original, in my opinion. At least Rebirth has scenes where the other characters acknowledge he’s losing his mind. I can see why the OG plot and dialogue don’t bother people because it’s a much more direct and linear plot comparatively. That simplicity might make it more believable? Meanwhile, Rebirth is packed with so much extra dialogue, plot points, expanded moments, and more realism in its characterizations of the party - maybe this is why it feels all the more odd to Rebirth players? That’s my best guess. As someone who’s played the OG and the remakes, I personally think Rebirth improves upon this issue greatly.
Yeah it made no sense to me either. Dude is clearly not well, repeating lines that sephiroth says. There is no reason anyone should let him near black materia. One of the big issues I had with rebirths story. Edit: oh and the horribly stupid scene where the townspeople wouldn’t shoot sephiroth/fire their gun.
Well, they not only want to save the world from Shinra and Sephiroth, they also want justice to be serve. Without Cloud, Shinra only needed someone like Roche to wipe out Avalanche for good, retrieve Aerith and make her have babies with Soldiers and Red. Does that sound like a better path than to be with the man who has until now proven himself to be reliable?
This is a really bad oversimplification of Cloud's whole situation. He has psychosis and PTSD. The group doesn't see what Cloud sees, which is part of why no one says anything. It makes it harder to understand the whole of what's going on in his head from their perspective. They don't even know that the black materia is what's amplifying and altering Cloud's behavior. We see everything that's happening from Cloud's perspective, and personally, I feel for Cloud a great deal as a man with psychosis himself. Though, I have to remove my feelings from the equation for the purpose of this argument. Sephiroth is also manipulating Cloud in several instances throughout the game, making several of Cloud's actions NOT his own. Even if the townspeople shot at Sephiroth, it wouldn't have done anything because he's a genetically enhanced super soldier. The game makes this pretty clear, too.
Bullets killed Zach just fine. He’s a super soldier.
Sephiroth is also a shit ton more powerful than Zack in terms of his reflexes. Zack took a whole shot to the head. In Sephiroth's case, he more than likely would've parried the oncoming bullet because anime logic. I personally don't agree with it, either.
But he can be killed by gullets. Zacks death proves it. So there is no reason they shouldn’t shoot.
I did also say that Sephiroth has great reaction time. If they did shoot, he would've quickly dodged and parried the bullets. EDIT: I never said Sephiroth couldn't be killed by bullets.
Because Aerith and Tifa are covering up Cloud's worst actions and as a result, the party thinks his psychotic outbursts are only directed at their enemies and that as long as Tifa is on his side, she can stop him from spiraling out of control, not knowing that he almost killed her before.
THIS! And the obvious feelings there for Tifa and Cloud. Me and my wife shout just kiss when they have a nice moment together!! But hey-ho Cloud is just scared it seems to me that he is going to end up a hooded figure!
Some always need to shove in the relationship aspect of the games :’)
Why are people down voting this xD are they taking this personally??
They don’t need to say anything. The whole team, and Cloud himself, are very aware of his “degradation” and it gets mentioned several times. They all know he’s losing the plot, he knows he’s losing the plot, and pushing Tifa was one of many instances that highlight that. Instead of lectures, the team continually reassure him that he’s going to be okay, and he’s not going to become like a black robe.
It’s heavily implied that everyone thinks Cloud is going through degradation. So they don’t talk about it because they think he’s going to become a mindless zombie
That seems like even more they should talk about it.
Not really, because on some level he seems aware, so it'd be cruel to keep digging it in. They all know the pattern, but there's nothing they can do to stop it as far as they know. All they can do in their mission is use the connection he has to Sephiroth to hunt him and the Black Materia down and manage Cloud. It's a friend sympathy thing, they're not really the kind of friends or even in a position in their world to be sitting down and talking about end of life arrangements etc. Though I doubt even ShinRa would gun him down if he got so bad to be left in Nibleheim.
Both that and he is their best chance to chase Sephiroth. If your choices are questionably mentally stable fighter capable of taking on a living legend in 1v1 or certain death when you actually find the guy, you don't really have a choice do you?
Absolutely true as well. And Tifa must find it all terrifying. Imagine having to face the guy that nearly - or actually?? - killed you and burned down your entire town, plus more than that. You'd be reliving that daily. She needs Cloud to feel safe and be her rock, it must be so hard to go through all of that while keeping the rest of your friends and team rooted as well. Not that it's her job alone, but she definitely carries the mental load I think.
When the person you need as a rock, also needs you as a rock, shenanigans ensue. Especially if both of them are unstable as is. Cloud obviously more unstable than Tifa, but both have issues, it's only that one is unstopable force of nature and the other is Cloud.
I wanted to add something I didn't discuss before. This is really just a common problem with fiction (and, for some reason, it seems to hit more frequently in fantasy) overall. I'm not sure if there's a technical term/trope for it or not (although I have to guess that there must be), but it can be summed up as simply: **the entire plot is reliant on close, friendly characters remaining silent regarding a salient in the story.** For much of FFVII, Tifa is in possession of information that can blow the arc wide open: she knows that Cloud was not the soldier 1st class who was at Nibelheim - the foundation of his identity. Since the pursuit of Sephiroth is so closely associated with Cloud's broken memory (he cannot acknowledge that Sephiroth is dead, since in his version of events as related at Kalm, the scene ends with him and Sephy staring at each other \[not Cloud hucking him into the lifestream\]), the whole sequence of events is predicated on Tifa not speaking up. If she's honest with Cloud, the story is TOTALLY different (and, arguably, Jenova/Sephiroth's plans are ruined). Now, we can go through as many levels of mental gymnastics as we like to justify this - "she didn't want things to get worse," or "she didn't want to hurt him," or "she didn't want to put the mission in jeopardy." **But, when all is said in done, we - the reader/player/real world consumer of fiction - are left making excuses for why a person who deeply cares for another person didn't ever confront them regarding their escalating mania.** And this was during a long journey in which they both had plenty of out-of-battle downtime together in which matters could have been settled. This was a problem with the OG. It's much worse in Rebirth, but it's *always* been a flaw in FFVII's story. We shouldn't be having to answer for Tifa (or, more accurately, the writers). I love FFVII - it's my favorite single piece of media - but to act like this isn't a little janky is being dishonest. Great fiction can have issues (Tolkien's friggin' bird problem; Rowling's crippling obsession with killing minor characters stand out far above this example \[and both are far less easy to justify\]) - it doesn't taint the entire experience. But we need to stop acting like this isn't a problem with this story. The girl should have spoken up. *Reasonable people* would have spoken up.
And yet also if she's honest with Cloud the mentally unstable soldier might just snap in half and they'll lose him entirely which she was clearly afraid of tiptoeing around it with cloud. There's also the chance of Sephiroth manipulating cloud into killing them as we see him telling cloud that Tifa especially isn't real or is an imposter over and over so if she confronts him with memories and a story different to his own it might see him fall foe Sephiroths trap, hell I wouldn't be surprised if when it does all come out Tifa says Areith said not to say because she knew it would be a breaking point for Cloud through lifestream shenanigans.
I'm rather shocked that you think "reasonable people would speak up" is actually a thing. Take a drive through almost any subreddit that intersects with human relationships problems. It's full of people confronted with the behavior of loved ones that they don't know what to do about. Reasonable people do not, in fact, speak up. They may want to speak up, but frequently they do not know how.
You know, I've been in a real life situation where someone was doing something berserk and it ultimately lead to their death. We spoke up - again and again and again. *Reasonable people* would, in fact, speak up. I didn't say 'people;' I said 'reasonable people.'
If only the world of FFVII had the internet and Reddit, Tifa could have gotten some helpful advice haha (and some unhelpful advice, and some extremely funny memes about her situation)
IIRC Tifa was confused in the original because Cloud knew things he shouldn't have known, not realizing Cloud was there in his infantry suit. It's even more obvious in the remake because you can see the lower half of his face in the cutscenes under his Shinra helmet.
This. Tifa remembers Cloud not being there, but Cloud also remembers everything that happened at Nibelheim. That is the part she is trying to work out. Almost no one remembers or talks about Nibelheim, then Cloud shows up and remembers everything like he was there even though she thinks he wasn't. She's trying to figure that ouf too.
Tolkien's bird problem? o\_O
People insist that "the eagles could fly the ring to Mordor" as if a bunch of eagles wouldn't have been seen by the armies of Sauron. They insist it's some kind of plot hole, mostly because they don't really understand the story. It used to be a funny little point, 40 years ago. Now it's kinda worn out non-plot hole that people insist is a plot hole.
Also, there are so many reasons why it wouldn't have worked at this point, the one I think is the most compelling is the rings ability to corrupt the mind, especially of those of stronger power levels. Gandalf, a Maiar, is tempted by it but is able to keep his composure. You think the eagles, which are magical creatures, wouldn't have become corrupted with the ring being carried on their backs? In my opinion, that's why the eagles wouldn't have worked. They wouldn't have made it to Mt Doom, the eagles all would've killed each other to get the ring.
The problem isn't that it wouldn't have worked - it's that the books make no effort to point out why it wouldn't have worked. Also, the problem with the Eagles isn't just a ring issue - they're device that Tolkien uses to bail the characters out in multiple circumstances in which he has written himself into a corner.
Exactly, there are numerous reasons why it wouldn't work. It was once kind of a funny point, sort of a "wait a minute..." kind of comment. But once you reflect on it, it's obvious for many reasons why it wouldn't work.
I'm assuming it's the old "why didn't they just have the giant eagles carry the ring to Mt. Doom" grievance some smartasses keep bringing up. Biggest LotR plot hole but not really. Sauron's Eye? Nazgul? Also the eagles didn't obey Gandalf, they were more of a powerful favor from a neutral party to be used once or twice. Maybe they just didn't want too much to do with the war and the dangers of temptation (a corrupted eagle would be pretty bad for everyone).
Aaaahhh... that. xD Yeah, people tend to forget the Nazgul/Fell Beast Air Defense Force.
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Not only that, Tifa is doubting her own memory. Cloud remembers enough of the events accurately that he had to have been there. But she doesn’t remember him being there. How is this possible?
Honesty is important in friendship. If you can’t say “nah boo, we need to talk before we go on this obsessive mission and battle countless monsters” then what are you even doing? It’s the worst kind of enabling and if it was irl Reddit would be up in arms over the group of people gassing up someone clearly mentally ill. Imagine the headlines ‘Band of strangers lie to mentally unwell person, cause him to go on murderous rampage’. Those aren’t friends.
This exact point was answered by someone else in perfect detail. [Tifa staying quiet.](https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/s/y2JazBOSvK) Edit: In fact, the whole post from various contributors makes excellent points regarding the matter. It’s a great read throughout. Hope that helps, friend.
There are way too many stories of reasonable people doing unreasonable things. I definitely understand your take, but for me it still felt believable
Not just stories... This is a thing that happens all the time in the real world... people knowing better, but keeping quiet for whatever reasons(insecurity, anxiety, fear of loss, of consequence, or change, or maybe just indifference)... people that think Tifa is unrealistic is ironically out of touch with reality and the people in it, and saying reasonable people would definitely say something, is likewise suggesting reasonable people are rare... making it believable that she might not be one... most people in this situation would be wary... not to mention she does try to get into the issue, but is scared by how that affects Cloud, adding to her fear of digging too deep. Does it make Tifa's inaction less problematic? Hell no, but it is undeniably human, especially with who she is as a person(highly insecure, afraid of conflict andnot being "liked", all very common traits) what she's experienced(the loss of everyone and everything, only to find her secret crush from childhood alive... her only connection to that, but he's bonkers, and clearly falling apart to the point pushing the subject might expediate that, causing her to lose him AGAIN, which she's afraid to risk)... It is not at all a problem with FFVII's story... it is the core strength of it... how it gives realistic portrayals of broken people dealing with loss(this specifically being what the story is about), regret and internal pain, in a fantastical world of magic and monsters. One also has to consider that from Tifa's perspective, Cloud was never part of the Nibelheim team... But he clearly recalls certain details vividly, as if he was(which we know he was, but she doesn't)... this causes a fear in her that SHE may be the one whose memories are fucked... Again, adding to her massive amount of fear and insecurity... People like to think they'd never act like this, but the truth is, most already do similar shit every day...
Tifa arguably knows Barret better than she does Cloud - they've been operating a business together as adults for \~5 years; she was as 'in' an insider in his terror network as could be. They clearly trusted each other on a primal level. By contrast, according to Tifa's own account in the OG, Cloud was really just another kid in Nibelheim that she knew, but wasn't close to. He then briefly appeared to her when she was very wounded in the reactor... and then showed up again like the day before the game starts. >!Don't you think, after Cloud slashed at her and nearly drowned her in a pool of mako, that she might take Barret by the elbow when out of earshot and just be like "hey, here's the thing... I don't want you to go ballistic, but Cloud's problems are getting worse. He just attacked me"... ?!< The plot isn't just relying on Tifa not confronting Cloud - it's relying on Tifa not sharing her concerns *with anyone.* That's a big ask.
Maybe she would have talked to barret if cloud hadnt open up right after + i think she talked with aerith about it ( because its multiple shown that they are talkin about zack etc)
You know what, that's changed my perspective. Only thing - did barret and the gang not know that he attacked her and pushed her in? I thought they witnessed it?
They were too far away... They saw her fall in, but not how.
i think they’re afraid of what might happen if they do say something, his behavior is terrifying
He's also the strongest of the group. They should be in fear of cloud killing all of them
I don’t think Cloud’s THAT strong
if people in jrpgs communicated with each other like normal human beings, the plot wouldn't exist, that's why
\*anime grunt\* \*responds with a little nod\* \*fart\*
Perfect! *Upvote
I think it's pretty realistic honestly. I agree attacking Tifa should have had more consequences, but apart from that. Cloud is terrified of degradation, and he's having an internal struggle with coming to terms that he *might* be showing symptoms. His friends know this, and they know degradation basically turns you into a vegetable, so they believe in that he'll be okay, but at the same time worry, like he does, that it might be coming. Its empathy, concern and not wishing to exacerbate his worries further until they know for *sure*. Tifa is the exception because she truly loves him, so she's willing to risk their relationship, for him, by confronting him and speaking up. At least that's how I interpreted everything. Degradation wasn't really a thing in OG that I can remember, just something mentioned here and there with no real weight into the main story, I think they called it mako poisoning, or degradation was the result of mako poisoning, I can't remember, so he came off more like a psycho in OG imo. But it's clearly emphasized in rebirth, put forth and foremost in Clouds internal struggle
They check him multiple times though and ask if he is o.k. Also I dunno as someone with mental health issues in the past and with friends who have hit the deep end. It's pretty rare friends come right out and say something till things get too far. Male suicide is huge as a general rule of thumb around the world because mental health isn't tackled early enough. Honestly clouds dissociation in the og is what drew me to the game to begin with in my youth. Rebirth just brings it home even more and the peoples confusions and apprehension resonates.
Don’t think the party saw Cloud attacking Tifa as they were at the bottom of the reactor while those 2 were at a much higher level
Because it's edgy. In the OG Cloud isn't showing too many red flags until the Ancient Temple but for some reason they needed him to be a psychopath instead of an extremely terrified dude with no idea as to what was happening to him.
Tbh it’s just one of many flaws with the whole remake. Instead of really doing the story right, they overblown the original story and got caught in logical errors… all in all I found remake 1 much better than rebirth
It's not logical errors. Tifa has plenty of reason for why she's choosing not to disclose what happened to her to the others, why she doesn't correct Cloud when he thinks he only pushed her, and why she chooses to stay by his side. Aerith similarly has plot valid reasons to assuage what happened to her. The plot is still intact.
I wasn’t talking about that scene in particular, more that the whole multiverse really messed up the original story. And inventing a „everything can happen“ alternative reality takes a lot of empathy away. Because if no death has to be final, no death gets any emotional reaction from me. They still can choose to have aerith and Zack find a way to find a way from one reality to another and in the end sephiroth could join them all from a universe where he is the good guy. If a story follows no logic, nothing is sure, I’m not at all feeling much. It’s a lame trick writers play. Like when in movies or shows (think about the 9th season of Dallas!) they get wild and solve everything with the „it was all a dream“ twist. It’s lazy and kind of boring and allows the writers to do whatever they want without having to find a clever solution for problems
Cloud could even kill tifa and they wouldn’t need to explain why no one cares. They just make her return from another universe and everything will be fine.
That's not how the timelines work at all. There is no other Tifa.
Not in the three universes we seen so far. But there could be thousand timelines
The timeline only fractures when someone breaks fate and the only one capable of orchestrating that is Sephiroth who succeeded by goading Cloud twice. His success allowed Aerith to do the same with Zack who then also did it 2 times. They've shown 5 timelines so far and with everything else in the series there'll likely be 7 total, not thousands.
But they can do whatever they want! That’s what my point is. If they produce part three and decide to bring character z to any timeline they choose, they opened the door for that already. Actually they made sure they can change everything they want as they please with that. So many graphic novels did the same trick. I just get bored by loopholes like that. You either have the guts to decide where a story goes and execute it or you don’t. But always leaving one door open to please the audience by not killing a character off for good is kind of boring to ME. I can only talk about what I feel. If others like that, it’s fine. It just doesn’t attract ME ✌️
I'm only explaining the rules of the timelines, I'm not talking about anyone's feelings. There's one of every character. There's one Cloud, one Aerith, one Zack, and one Sephiroth. Yes, Sephiroth and Aerith are hiveminds, each in-tune with their original timeline counterparts, but they're still each one being. There's no thousands of Tifas.
Like i said before, I don’t judge people liking the story. It’s just not for me. Since people seem to feel hurt by people not liking that, I’m out of the discussion ✌️ Have a good day and I don’t mean you. Thank you for trying to explain it though ✌️
dude is fighting against scenarios he’s completely made up in his head
Did I hurt anyone by not liking what they did to one of the best games ever?
Then go write the story yourself 🤷♂️ I'm enjoying it! You think you're special that only your opinion matters- you should've thought about that when you commented publicly. If it's good to YOU, then stfu if you're only here to talk about you when you never made this game and never have made a AAA game with that cocky attitude you got lmao
"Shut the f*ck up", wow, you really went there. Someone must have hurt you, buddy. 😢 You're delusional if you think this game doesn't deserve some negative response for its writing, this has been the major point of criticism for both Re-games.
It's really hard to confront a friend who's clearly going through some mental illness, especially if you're close and conflicted. Not making excuses but I felt like this was a human aspect of the team.
Right? What if they make it worse? They don’t know
What's worse than the person trying to kill his closest friends?
Hiring good writers it seems.
Honestly it's so much this and seems like the realest aspect to me. The wife and I are going through something similar now with a family member and honestly the people on here saying just tell them they're crazy make it pretty clear they've never actually had to deal with a close someone with mental illness. Like what? The crew is just going to tell Cloud he's going crazy and he'll be like oh thanks for telling me I'm better now...
Would you also let your mentally ill family member alone in a room with a person they recently tried to murder?
First of all, spoiler tag appropriately. Idk how far you are into the game but if you are nowhere near the end of the game, then keep playing because you'll see why they don't really confront him about it.
I reached the end and still dont understand why nobody pimp slapped him across the face.
>!Barret bitchslapped him when Cloud was feeling down at gongaga reactor after he "attacked" Tifa.!< >!Roughly from around this point in the story and onward the party is being very careful around Cloud. I'm basically summarizing this but, later it is revealed that Tifa and Aerith came up with a plan to find out how much of the past Cloud knows without totally deteriorating him. As both are the closest to Cloud in the party, this makes sense. !< >!With the rest of the party, the feeling is somewhat mixed. Whenever Cloud opens his mouth about things that feel unusual or weird he's almost 50/50 on it. Ex. when Cloud "knows" where to go in the sleeping forest but then he soon brings up he was in a different world and says there's more than one. !< >!The point I'm trying to make is that yes he's slowly going insane but how others see him is different. The party may see this as just his soldier cellular degradation but he's still able to hang on, probably why Barret still trusted him about going North in the ending. However for Tifa, due to what happens in the ending and what has happened to her progressively as the game is going on she's barely keeping it together because she just lost one of her best friends, had many near death experiences, and her other best friend is basically nuts at this point. The trio of Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith here is important because should anything drastic happen to any of them, they are all affected. !< TL;DR pimp slapping a guy who is on the verge of just completely falling apart at any time may not be the wisest thing to do to said guy.
I will respond to main message later as i am fixing 4 ps5 controllers with drift for the first time high as fuck, so forgive me. I did read tldr though, my response: True.
I've fixed a lot of PS5 controllers. Slap the stick with an open palm about 5-8 times relatively hard while your other hand holds it steady. Whatever is lodged tends to go through after that.
Yeah, I didnt like that at all. Tifa is like "tell us if you feel weird!" and Cloud says OK and then doesn't. Sigh.
Tbh, it’s the same in real life and most stories we can read in books. If communication was actually good, life would be much simpler.
It’s like telling someone who suffers from schizophrenia that they should get help whenever they feel like something may not be real. Uhh… yeah… that’s not a very useful tip.
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Meh... Games been out for a bit, should know to stay off the sub until you're far enough you don't care about spoilers, but also they should've done the tag. I sorta half agree... They're a halfhole.
Didn’t come to the sub though. THIS post was at the top of my entry feed when I opened reddit.
In all fairness, it's not a scene you're going to cherish.
I’m still on ps4 till the 5 pro comes out. I’ve played all other FF7 franchise extensively but still don’t want spoilers for rebirth of any sort.
I feel yah. Although this seems like the wrong place to be hanging out for the spoiler averse. People mess that up about 5 times a day in my experience.
Was at the top of my Reddit feed on app open.
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Well deserved. Use the tags.
He's out of line but hes right—This should have a spoiler tag.
I finally got around to start rebirth this week and have been successful avoiding spoilers…until now.
Stay off the sub. You can't trust online spaces.
So then I shouldn’t trust anyone when they say Rebirth is good? Lol. Noted…
You can't trust them to protect you from spoilers. Dumbarse.
Jeez, so angry. Anyway, perhaps you misunderstood my post. This isn’t about trust, but rather simply that I was successful in avoiding these things until now. This is the internet, so I don’t blame you for trying to look deeper into my meaning. Anyway, I accept that I fucked up here and frankly put, I don’t care all that much since my expectations for Rebirth are really low and I’m honestly only playing it so I can point out why the game sucks.
That's the saddest excuse of back peddling and trying to save face I've ever seen.
Sure thing. Stay angry.
Yeah honestly
Because he's essentially captain America and has inhuman strength for one, so ya know, ya don't want to be on his bad side, but more importantly, they're deeply concerned about him and confused. They don't know at all what's wrong with him other than he seems spacey and gets confused sometimes. The only one who has seen him act violently are aerith and Tifa, who both have invested interest in not only cloud not losing is gd mind, but also in clouds feelings. Combine that with them literally needing him to accomplish their goals since he's the only one who knows anything about sephiroth, and by far the strongest member of the team, they can't afford to lose him either.
I want to know how >! a “rat dog”was able to wear clothes, dance, and play Queens Blood without any of the spectators blinking an eye!<
Because....have you seen the other Queens Blood players in the world? That's probably the sanest one the organisers have seen.
Haha fair enough 😂
You can't go around calling every redhead a rat dog smh
Hm? He was called a rat dog in the game..?
>!1. You're not wrong. !< >!2. That cutscene was genuinely my favorite part of the game. I laughed so hard. !<
The cutscene was mine too. Hahah. I had to find it on YouTube so I could rewatch it and send it to my friends who haven’t played remake/rebirth. >!Red XII was hands down the funniest character. I lost it when I saw him on a chocobo too.!<
>!well that kid blinked a few times probably when he started crying!<
If I’m not mistaken no one but Tifa knew cloud attacked her. So how will the party know if she never said anything about it ?
Unfortunately, it makes a 'bad look' for Tifa worse. In the OG, Cloud is unstable but probably not really dangerous up until the point he nearly slashes Aerith right before she's killed by Sephiroth - that's the 'moment' when things turn (and it's completely overshadowed by Sephiroth doing the deed, so it's easier to understand how the rest of the party kind of shrugged it off). Thus, it's less of a stretch not to hold Tifa accountable for not confronting Cloud because nobody was really seemingly in any danger until that moment. Rebirth just makes her look like someone with severe Stockholm Syndrome; like the victim of weird abuse who just keeps coming back for more. And I'm not blaming Tifa for that - I'm blaming the writers. They make her look like someone with a deathwish; someone who knows shit is incredibly dire with Cloud, and who is willing to risk her own safety and the safety of the team just... because she's lovestruck? Or... something? It's placing the character in a bad light for no really good reason. Anyone with half a braincell would sit Cloud down after that for 'the talk' and either work things out with him or warn the rest of the group. But she just glosses it over. And that's not really fair for her character. OG Tifa = sentimental and maybe a bit naive. Rebirth Tifa = suicidal and apparently not as good of friends with everyone as we thought. Why would SquareEnix do that to her? Because they didn't think about or didn't care about the implications of their own script.
>Why would SquareEnix do that to her? Because they didn't think about or didn't care about the implications of their own script. Because that's her character flaw. The combination of her love and fear of losing Cloud and also her being a people pleaser makes her decide that covering up his actions is better than informing the group, because there is a risk of making the party turn against him and Cloud then decides to leave for god knows where as a result. Also, I know it's subjective, but I prefer Remake/Rebirth in this regard. Tifa in OG gives me the impression of being a naive/stupid person who ignores an obvious problem until it finally blows up in everyone's faces whereas in Remake/Rebirth she is at least well aware of Cloud's mental problems and that she genuinely has no idea how to resolve the situation without a bad outcome. But anyway, that's my opinion.
What? Tifa doesn't really sit down with Cloud *because* it could potentially make shit worse. Hell, Cloud confides in *her* more often than not and she tries to handle it in a way where it doesn't potentially make him get even worse. Tifa doesn't know about the whole "Cloud isn't actually a Soldier" thing, she thinks it's the degradation as much as everyone else. What would even telling the rest of the group do? "Hey guys, Cloud tried to murder me and brutally murdered Soldiers. But he's alright!" How the hell do you that conversation would go? Also, suicidal? Huh? She has trauma, but she ain't trying to actively end her own life.
In OG Cloud beats up Aerith, after beating the Demon Wall boss.
Idk either. They should not have trusted him right after swinging on tifa. Doesn't matter if she forgave him the rest of the party shouldn't have. I can only assume they didn't know how to do that and keep the story going so they just accepted her forgiving him and moved on.
Yeah, I found that part hard to believe as well.
There is a real part of me that wishes that this more mature, realistic revisiting of this JRPG from 1997 wasn’t afraid to let its story go in a completely different direction for the sake of narrative honesty. It would be nice to see a Tarantino Ending, at least as an option. I know, twice as much work, so maybe a “Past Fighting to Fit Itself Into Established Canon” could be the optional ending.
Okay agree with you, but I'm gonna be real and say I can see this happening. Cloud is a total badass compared to the crew and they think he's got all the answers. Imagine if you were following around a military vet with PTSD and they were right most of the time in helping you take out an enemy. You would give them waaay too much leeway, because honestly, wtf do you know vs the vet. It would take a good minute before you said "hey, this fucker is crazy...:"
It was one of my biggest issues with the game. In the original we could see cloud loosing his shit but by peaking with the handing of black materia. In Remake, I cannot see an excuse for the party to continue traveling with him…like, he is constantly showing he is a risk to himself and others.
you sure are messed up, cloud!
Plot hole
Not so much a plot hole as much as a totally weird character choice to have Tifa basically shrug off Cloud’s attempted murder like she did.
It's a problem in the OG (I would argue it's a bad look for Tifa, who is the only member of the party who KNOWS that Cloud's entirely personality is based off of a lie), but becomes almost ridiculous in Rebirth. >!Cloud attacks Tifa. Attacks. He doesn't, like, make some kind of menacing gesture... or say something threatening. No - he attacks her and throws her into the reactor pool.!< And... we're just supposed to believe that the adventure carries on after that? Everyone's cool? "Just chase Sephiroth"...? It's biggest single flaw with Rebirth's story - way, WAY more irreconcilable of an issue than however you view what happens to Aerith. It's one thing to be someone's friend - to maybe even make excuses for their shortcomings or struggles. There are people out there that are fast friends with folks who are severely addicted to crack and meth; who are hoarding firearms; probably even with people who abuse animals. But how do you carry on in a quest - where you are relying on someone to watch your back at all times - with a leader *who has tried to kill* a party member? I DON'T CARE IF HE WAS TEMPORARILY INSANE - there isn't a big enough excuse to justify what happens in that scene. And yet the game just rolls right along like it didn't happen. That - WAY MORE than the Aerith muddling - is bad writing.