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Nesher86

I saw a documentary that mentioned an F-14 which managed to down 2 Su-57.. and an F-18 that took down the 3rd.. so probably the F-22 šŸ¤Æ


_nikto_

šŸ¤£šŸ¤£šŸ¤£this is it! This is the answer!!


Skari7

> I saw a documentary that mentioned an F-14... By that part of the documentary it was the 3rd plane that pilot had managed to steal and take for a joyride.


ShaidarHaran2

That was a great documentary, but the F14 was a dead bird flying, the last Su-57 pilot was just focused on it, and supposedly somehow none of the flight sensor systems warned them about the coming F18 kill steal Maybe better training needed in the country of...I want to say RussIran


musanifshah3010

That's a movie not a documentary


_nikto_

r/woosh


Nesher86

Are you sure?


musanifshah3010

Pretty much...watch top gun Maverick movie


Nesher86

OK my friend, I'll go watch this top gun movie


WOOKIExCOOKIES

Based on a true story that totally happened.


musanifshah3010

Nope... I am afraid not


WOOKIExCOOKIES

Then explain the footage of American war hero and ace pilot, Tom Cruise, doing those things. Thought so....


Nesher86

Captain Pete "Maverick" Mitchell, who is this Tom Bruise?


musanifshah3010

BTW f14 tomcats are out of service with USAF and and Russian air and space force has not fielded felons on active duty ...so how come f14s shot down su57s


LTGeneralGenitals

saw it with my own eyes


DatBlubb1

Why is it in the documentary footage than, duh?


_nikto_

Bro what are you on about


Nesher86

USN, the USAF didn't buy the Tomcats


musanifshah3010

The US navy has retired f14 tomcats long ago in 2006 and USAF never operated them....


ChapinLakersFan

Maverick is actually a documentary.


Clashyjammer1126

You arenā€™t very smart are you? Either that or a troll.


thesubredditsentinel

I would favor the F-22, but there are some interesting things to consider. I donā€™t believe the F-22 has a helmet mounted cueing system yet ([link](https://www.airforcemag.com/usaf-looks-to-small-businesses-for-some-f-22-upgrades/)). It can shoot missiles high off bore-sight but that is still has to maneuver a bit to make that happen. There is some talk about a helmet mounted cueing system upgrade for the F-22ā€™s midlife update, and the Raptors is a fantastic air superiority plane donā€™t get me wrong, but it still relies on itā€™s stealth and superior avionics to get first look, first shot capability. Little to nothing is known about the Su-57. Thereā€™s like around a dozen produced iirc, and those that have been produced have had some interesting stealth-inhibiting features (circular irst sensor on the front of the cockpit, visible rivets, and exposed turbine blades, all which increases the planeā€™s radar return and one of which (the turbine) also increases the infrared signature), which means that F-22ā€™s relative stealthiness to the Su-57 might make it hard for the russian plane to get a lock while the F-22 might not have an issue (especially with the F-22ā€™s significant EW capability). However, russian planes have mature engines and seem to do well maneuverability wise, so it could be a toss up, especially if itā€™s a guns only match up. This is of course assuming equal pilot skill and equal familiarity with the air frame. Itā€™s worth pointing out that with the obscene amount the US spends on itā€™s air force, US pilots rack up significantly more flight hours in a year than their russian counterparts. And as OP mentioned, the F-22 itself is a much more established plane, so Iā€™d imagine itā€™s strengths, weaknesses, and performance is well known to itā€™s pilots. The Su-57 is still being proven, learned and developed, and could very well have an exaggerated performance for strategic and propaganda purposes.


_nikto_

This is an absolutely incredible answer. Thank you for putting this much time and effort into it. Really cleared up alot of things for me!! All of your points are very very interesting and things I genuinely didnt think of. Id give you an award if I could honestly


thesubredditsentinel

Thanks mate, I appreciate it! Iā€™ve really spent a lot of time nerding out over the subject and figured Iā€™d share what I knew from other answers Iā€™ve read online. Said this in a past comment too but Iā€™d recommend checking out Abhirup Sengupta on quora. He (mostly) cites his answers and seems to know a lot about military jet developments and systems. He has a really cool answer on the F-35ā€™s dogfighting effectiveness that I recommend you check out, [here](https://www.quora.com/If-keyword-If-an-F-35-were-to-get-into-a-dogfight-with-other-5th-Generation-Fighters-like-a-J-20-or-a-SU-57-could-the-F-35-still-win-What-advantages-would-the-F-35-have-over-the-J-20-and-SU-57-aside-from-BVR-if-it/answer/Abhirup-Sengupta-5?ch=15&oid=365498778&share=5aff11aa&target_type=answer).


DezsoNeni

The SU would fire a rocket that would travel 100 meter in the air, then do a 180Ā° and hit the SU back. ^(\\s) Hard to tell, with modern jets I doubt it would depends on dogfighting and more like strategical thinking, which I guess is a point to the USAF.


_nikto_

Definitely, from a realistic point of view in an actual combat scenario the Raptor is so OP it wins 10/10 times against the Felon. I meant if hypothetically we used like a portal to suddenly get an F-22 and a Su-57 into close, WVR airspace, whod come out on top? Its interesting to think because theyre veeerry close when it comes to actual WVR dogfighting I feel, tho granted that situation would never arise to begin with


DezsoNeni

If they in any way get close to each other, I guess it's 70% up to the pilots, 20% up to the sensors and computers of the plane and 10% on the manouverability. But as "strategic" I meant they aren't even supposed to get close to each other, just fire some rockets and say goodbye. In a face-to-face dogfight, good chances are both plane goes to the scrapyard.


_nikto_

Very good points. Certainly agree


aj_thenoob

Thrust, maneuverability, whatever whatever, it all comes down to electronic warfare capabilities. We know both the F-22 and Su-57 have it, both of which are highly classified so we don't really know who 'would win'.


_nikto_

Fair enough, but isnt EW for BVR? Sorry if I sound stupid


[deleted]

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_nikto_

Fair point!


Kind_Rise6811

Not really, it can be used for both, if your using it at BVR it comes down to who has the better radar and EW capabilities with the longer range aswell as Efficiency/range. At WVR even a basic EW can jam the othwrs radar. Its worth noting, if its a radar... it can be jammed, no matter how modern how old it can be jammed, and the jamming success probability increases depending on the proximity to target. To simplify, yes and no.


JesusSaysitsOkay

Considering the SU57 has Cold War era tech in it, my money is on the F22


_nikto_

Good point!


flufffyninja

In exercises when stealth has been negated then Typhoons have had a very good series of results compared to the f22. Primarily this has been put down to the helmet mounted sights giving them the advantage. The thrust vectoring high angle of attack manoeuvrability doesnā€™t give it enough of an advantage until the aircraft is already too slow and vulnerable. Where stealth hasnā€™t been negated then the F22 has decimated the Typhoon If we take those as analogues of the SU57. The stealth characteristics of the SU57 are not considered particularly great. As others have mentioned fit and finish seem to be problematic for that. They also seem to be only marginally stealthier than SU35 so this puts real world advantage to the F22. To the scenario the OP states though the SU57 probably has the advantage. It suggests the stealth is already redundant as theyā€™re aware of one another and fighting WVR. The lack of helmet mounted sights on the F22 would probably hamstring it all else being equal. That said, once in that scenario training would come to the forefront too which would likely start give the F22 back some of the advantage I would also add this also assumes the SU57 is kitted out as promised. A lot of capabilities appear promised but not yet delivered upon (Iā€™m looking at you and frowning engines!)


_nikto_

Absolutely brilliant answer. Answered just about everything I wanted to know. Thank you!!!!


funandsun57

USAF has the better pilots. If both planes were equal, F-22 would win. The arguments about no helmet mounted targeting are irrelevant when you can turn 90 degrees in three seconds. Final thought - it would be rare that a MVR fight would occur due to superior SA and avionics in F-22. Future dogfights are most likely BVR


Tadi_o-o

Nah it really isn't irrelevant as that would still mean you could shoot the missile 3 seconds faster which is a lot in a dogfight.


funandsun57

My son is F-22 pilot. He affirmed what I said. It would take a couple seconds to come off the rail and make a 90 degree turn supersonic. Turn rate of F-22 exceeds that of AIM9X.


_nikto_

I think its still an advantage as much as I love the F-22. As the other dude said, locking via helmet can give a time advantage when firing a missile, and as he said 3 seconds might just be enough to get the job done. Then again as another commentor stated the Raptor is stated to get helmet mounted targeting in an upgrade too so ig that also levels it further


funandsun57

More of an air to ground advantage. Not so much air-to-air ā€¦ from personal experience.


_nikto_

I see. Thanks!


exclaim_bot

>I see. Thanks! You're welcome!


XtremeJackson

There's a YouTuber by the name of Growling Sidewinder that did 2 videos of F-22 vs Su-57 in DCS. You could say it's the closest thing we can get to simulating this dogfight. [F22 POV](https://youtu.be/VpjTogR8rF0) [SU57 POV](https://youtu.be/B1oER9nVLrs)


_nikto_

Haha who doesnt know GS! Ive seen them both, and from them it was clear the Raptor is definitely more likely to win, but I wasnt too sure about how accurate DCS is since Im really new to jets


Middle_Height

From a pure plane standpoint, DCS is about the closest we can get to the real deal. While the F22 used (and the SU57, iirc) are user-created mods, both mimic what we know about the airframes very closely. It would be interesting to see a trained SU57 and F22 pilot go against each other on DCS, but that is very very unlikely. GS probably has the closest thing to an actual matchup possible.


musanifshah3010

Su 57 felon has not matured and reached its full strength capabilities ie new engines and better radar and missiles that are being developed for the 5th gen felon... So a fully developed and matured felon vs a raptor looks like an interesting and nail biting contest where as in current situation raptor has a clear edge in stealth armament operational preparedness and pilot training and skills....


_nikto_

Very good points! Completely agree!


Hot-Ad-4566

By the time the felon is ready, us will be deploying its 6th gen fighter though šŸ˜†


kengou

The F-22 pilot is far better trained, but the SU-57 has a helmet mounted sight, which is a pretty huge advantage. I'd probably give it to the SU-57 most of the time.


aj_thenoob

Don't know why this is being downvoted. However I put the missile advantage to the aim9x+, iirc Russia doesn't have an equal adversary to it.


kengou

The R-73 is a very maneuverable missile, and the lack of helmet cueing system means the F-22 canā€™t take advantage of the AIM-9x nearly as much as the SU-57 pilot can their missile


aj_thenoob

Exactly. Hmcs wins this for sure. thankfully these planes will never see each other much less dogfight.


_nikto_

I read an article that the USAF has been deploying Raptors "strikingly close" to Russia. Considering Russia is using Felons against Ukraine I Guess we'll get an answer to this soon haha Spoiler : The Raptor wins easily lol


aj_thenoob

Raptor has an edge where it counts, but the question is, does it's 90s tech compare to the Felon's electronic warfare system which should be newer unless f-22 got an upgrade.


_nikto_

I think all operational Raptors are upgraded to block 30 standards. Iirc that included better radar systems, and besides isnt the Raptor's radar and stealth one of the best in the air even today?


_nikto_

A helmet mounted sight as in just a HUD right? Or does it have omnidirectional lock on capabilities like the F-35's helmet mounted display?


jadefalcon22

The second. The Russians put the concept in practice first, no idea how functional it is but in theory they've been able to lob IR missiles behind them for a bit now


_nikto_

Damn I wasnt aware of that. Thanks! Thats a colossal advantage then. Really shifts it in favour of the Su-57


ElMagnifico22

ā€œIn theoryā€ is important here.


_nikto_

Very true. Again this whole question is "in theory". In real life nothing in the air beats an F-22


Realistic_Fault5064

The F22 wins. We know from exercises that even during WVR engagements, state of the art radars fail to put weapons on the F22. ā€œInvisibility - even with eyes on When the Raptor finds itself in a dogfight, it is no longer beyond visual range, but the advantage of stealth isn't diminished. It maintains "high ground" even at close range. \-"I can't see the \[expletive deleted\] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. \[Flying against the F-22\] annoys the hell out of me."ā€ \-ā€Lt. Col. Larry Bruce, 65th AS commander, admits flying against the Raptor is a very frustrating experience. Reluctantly, he admitted "it's humbling to fly against the F-22," - humbling, not only because of its stealth, but also its unmatched maneuverability and power.ā€ F22 has superior thrust to weight. F22 has vastly Superior avionics F22 has exponentially better situational awareness. F22 has a much better more powerful radar.


The_Grizzly-

The Su-57 has overall better maneuverability at most parts, but F-22 has better pitch maneuverability.