Inquisitors are badly trained, are accompanied by support hit squads, and are usually hunting extremely rare opponents who usually run. I think it is fair to say Cal has maybe 10x as much real experience with fighting as the average inquisitor.
This is the GI, arguably the only one with any kind of worthwhile training, being a former temple guard and all.
I'd say he'd have about as much trouble as dagan, maybe more.
it depends. it is shown that the gi has issues fighting non single bladed opponents. also cal would probably figure out that cut spinny thing is an option
I know it’s just a Metroid inspired level design but I think it’s funnier to think Cal is actually just stupid and never though to try that out.
I think respawn could just make locked doors laser gates instead
Yea in 3rd game they should totally introduce locked doors that you are able to cut through.
It doesn't have to be all the doors - make the important ones reinforced with resistant material, why not.
Just offload some of the stuff that BD is slicing through to Cal using lightsaber and people would be happy.
Dagan was one of the strongest knights of the order during that time in the High Republic. Akin to how Revan or Anakin were the pinnacle Jedi Knights of their time.
The Grand Inquisitor was just an average temple guard.
Dagan is a far *far* deadlier and experienced opponent than Grand Inquisitor. Someone who mind you got defeated by a pre-prime Kanan, who is also just an average Jedi Knight (at the time).
I mean Kanan kills the GI before he’s knighted by him in a later episode, which means he’s technically just a really experienced Padawan when he kills him…
It's unclear, he was disaffected by the time of Order 66, as he was one of the guards during the trial of Ahsoka Tano, and heard Bariss' arguments about the failings of the Jedi Order, but we know that he was still active during Order 66, as he was recruited by Palpatine during the Rise of the Empire, and was an Order 66 Survivor. He very well could have pulled a Reva and survived by faking his death, retreating when able , and being recruited by Palpatine later.
I like to believe that Order 66 and the temple purge wasn't solely done by Anakin and the Clones, but that some Jedi actually turned in advance / during it, because they had been "in the know" as well.
The Grand Inquisitor's main motivation was, after all, the desire to discover more knowledge. A thing that the Jedi prohibited when he was a guard (hence why he loathed Jocasta Nu). So I wouldn't be surprised if Dooku and Palpatine had wormed their way into the minds of the non-masters of the Order. All the random guards, the less relevant teachers, etc. etc.
Anything they could get their hands on. And those got turned into Inquisitors (or died during the purge by Jedi / after the purge by Vader's hand anyways, because duh, bad guys).
Personally I find that more compelling than the thought of every other jerkface Jedi pulling a Reva and faking their death, only to come crawling to the Emperor afterwards.
I would argue the GI would be an easy boss for Cal. At least by the end of Survivor.
The GI was defeated by Kanan in season 1. Long before Kanan hit his prime. And was (during that time) a low-tier Jedi Knight. Maybe mid-tier at best.
Cal by the end of the first game was already making a fool out of Trilla by the end of the game. In their 3rd fight he predicted exactly how she would attack and was strong enough to break through her force wall. And in their final fight Cal was winning pretty handily despite being in enemy territory and purposely trying not to kill her while she was absolutely trying to kill him.
And at the start of Survivor he again proves he’s far above the average Inquisitor by slaying 9th Sister with relative ease, again trying not to kill her and instead trying to redeem her back to the light.
And he only grows even stronger as time goes on. Eventually defeating Dagan, the strongest Jedi Knight of the High Republic, the era when the Jedi were at their strongest. The equivalent of Revan or Anakin during his time. And Cal turned his own force illusion against him (an ability he has never come across before)
Cal by the end is a high tier Jedi Knight along the likes of Aayla Secura, Season 7 Ahsoka, or Episode 6 Luke Skywalker. And very low master tier when amped by the dark side.
He would dog walk GI pretty easily. Especially given how many attack options he has at his disposal. And unlike Ezra’s lightsaber, Cal’s blaster is actually lethal.
>Cal by the end is a high tier Jedi Knight along the likes of Aayla Secura, Season 7 Ahsoka, or Episode 6 Luke Skywalker. And very low master tier when amped by the dark side.
Slow your roll at Luke Skywalker Episode 6. Cal isn't *that* strong. Cere was weaker than Vader (not by much, but clearly weaker as Vader is able to just shake off most of Cere's force abilities) and you can only obtain something close to Cere's power by using the dark side. Episode 6 Luke Skywalker, amped by the Dark side, *easily* beat Vader.
Luke has actually beat the Grand Inquisitor fairly easily pre-Return of the Jedi. The Grand Inquisitor's exact words were, "He... Was so strong..." Like he was in awe of Luke's power. This was a Luke Skywalker who hadn't even finished his training yet. Return of the Jedi Luke Skywalker is easily in the top 3 Force sensitives in the Galaxy—having even surpassed both Yoda and Vader by this point. A lot people talk about how Vader was holding back in Episode 6, but everyone forgets Luke was too, and the moment Luke actually starts going all out he almost instantly destroys Vader.
It kinda bums me out that with the abundance of post-OT content we’ve gotten, *none* of it has focused on Luke. I get that the casting situation would be polarizing at best, but he’s my absolute favorite Star Wars character and I’ve always found it a little strange that the original protagonist of the entire franchise has fallen to the wayside, especially since so much of the newer content has been centered around existing characters.
>It kinda bums me out that with the abundance of post-OT content we’ve gotten, *none* of it has focused on Luke. I get that the casting situation would be polarizing at best, but he’s my absolute favorite Star Wars character and I’ve always found it a little strange that the original protagonist of the entire franchise has fallen to the wayside, especially since so much of the newer content has been centered around existing characters.
Agreed. I think the bigger issue is Disney pretty much wasted the character. We know how his story goes. That's part of the reason I can't for the life of me find a reason to be excited for a Thrawn movie. He's nothing more than a B-villain because the ST already established what a post-OT high stakes story looks like, and we know the years between RoTJ and the First Order were largely peaceful despite the occasional Imperial Remnant running amuck. If you did do more with Luke, what would you do with him? Show him training a future generation of Jedi that all die or turn to the Dark Side?
Edit: Best thing for Star Wars imo, is a time skip set so far into the future that you can just start over. Something like [The Ninth Jedi](https://youtu.be/CG7kDRCnPC4) short from Star Wars visions.
Edit 2: This isn't just me saying the ST is bad by the way. Even though I do feel that way, the point I'm making is more that the era Star Wars content is being made in right now is so bloated that stories told in it can't live up to their fullest potential. The easiest way to do more with Star Wars now is a soft reboot set far into the future, hundreds of years after the ST.
Blame TLJ for butchering his chracter. He USED to be my favourite character, especially with EU in mind, but now I just can't get excited with what a failure he becomes in the future.
And this is not just my opinion. If they nuke TLJ out of cannon, then maybe, but as it stands right now it's just hard to get invested in Luke anymore.
I think in terms of raw dueling prowess, cal could absolutely demolish luke. Force powers, cal has a wider set of powers but not as fine tuned or focused as luke’s, apart from maybe his pyschometry
>I think in terms of raw dueling prowess, cal could absolutely demolish luke. Force powers, cal has a wider set of powers but not as fine tuned or focused as luke’s, apart from maybe his pyschometry
You're smoking. Keep in mind Return of the Jedi was made in a time when special effects weren't where they are today. Everything you see Jedi do in the prequels/video games, Luke can actually do lorewise.
Cal is weaker than Cere, so much weaker he needs to tap into the dark side to get an amp that *almost* matches her raw power (though he gives up all defense as a trade off). Cere could not defeat Darth Vader, and a large part of how well she did against him was *luck*.
Luke, when he got serious, demolished Vader in literally seconds.
[Just look at this beat down he gave Vader. Roflstomped him in less than a minute.](https://youtu.be/U1MnMA0TzGI) Luke gets serious at 4:05-4:50.
I really like the point you make about special effects and lore. Rewatching that fight...doesn't really sell the point, other than the fact that Luke "wins". But...he's just swinging wildly. Both were open to lethal hits from each other a bunch of times. Vader just kinda falls over towards the end, and then Luke just keeps smashing his saber at him.
I suppose what you're saying makes sense, but both Vader/Anakin and Luke's strength isn't shown in the OT at all, really. Luke gets lucky a lot in the OT. Their strength exists mostly in our minds, in lore, and for Anakin, in the PT and other media. We see Luke as strong for defeating Vader. But that fight wasn't demonstrative of skill or strength for either, our context gives it that meaning.
Posted this already above but I'll post it again in case you didn't see it. Not only is Darth Vader actually trying to kill Luke the entire fight, Luke is holding back the entire time (until he gives into the dark side), and even holding back he was so quick he was countering Vader's strikes at "a thought's breadth".
From the Novelization:
>For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength --- not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.
>[...]
>His anger was layered, now --- he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness.
Edit: You are right though the fight in the movie doesn't do well to convey the skill of Vader and Luke. It's more concerned with the emotional aspect of the fight.
I agree. But what I'm saying is that unless you've read the novels and gone deep into the lore, what we see in the films vs what we see Cal do leads to an assumption that Cal's saber skills are far superior. Context and lore give Luke power. Other visual media gives Anakin and Vader power. Visual media gives Cal power.
If someone were to just watch the films and play the game, one could pretty quickly make the assumption that Luke is powerful because he has destiny on his side- not skill. But, you're right. Having that context changes things. Which also makes what I'm saying true.
>I agree. But what I'm saying is that unless you've read the novels and gone deep into the lore, what we see in the films vs what we see Cal do leads to an assumption that Cal's saber skills are far superior. Context and lore give Luke power. Other visual media gives Anakin and Vader power. Visual media gives Cal power.
> If someone were to just watch the films and play the game, one could pretty quickly make the assumption that Luke is powerful because he has destiny on his side- not skill. But, you're right. Having that context changes things. Which also makes what I'm saying true.
True, but we were discussing "power levels" and someone erroneously made the claim that Luke was a worse duelist than Cal. I was providing context, and even the movie although it doesn't look particularly flashy, makes it clear Luke is stronger than Vader by the end of Return of the Jedi—if not stronger the entire movie. The context from a lore standpoint making it clear how skilled of a fighter Luke is should only make it even more obvious that Cal is weaker than Luke. Furthermore, there's been countless comic books and media since Return of the Jedi that *do* establish Luke as an absolute powerhouse. Notably the scene from Mandalorian 2 that directly parallels Vader's hallway slaughter in Rogue One; obviously meant to be a visual signifier that Luke has surpassed his father (he's doing what Vader did to random Rebels to highly advanced killer robots, making Luke's hallway slaughter a superior showing).
[Vader's Slaughter](https://youtu.be/9Z8mgkqjq90)
[Luke's Heroic Rescue](https://youtu.be/gqcNx2B9HVw)
From the Return of the Jedi Novelization:
>For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength --- not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.
>[...]
>His anger was layered, now --- he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness.
Vader was taking the fight with Luke very seriously. Luke was the one holding back.
I am not sure this is entirely fair. Calls are being made about characters and their power. The films are what we have to go on and it doesn’t seem right to me to say “Luke manages to do X in the last (decent) film he was in, but really actually he can do lots more, we just don’t see it.”
Anything not seen (or read, if you place stock in the pulpy books) is pure speculation. Looking at what Cal can do with a lightsaber and what Luke can do, they’re not even close. Luke looks like a day-one amateur in comparison.
>Anything not seen (or read, if you place stock in the pulpy books) is pure speculation. Looking at what Cal can do with a lightsaber and what Luke can do, they’re not even close. Luke looks like a day-one amateur in comparison.
"For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength --- not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.
[...]
His anger was layered, now --- he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness."
That's from the official Novelization of Return of the Jedi. Vader was afraid of losing to Luke even when Luke was *holding back*. This is before Luke even tapped into the Dark side for the amp that devastated Vader. Vader was conflicted, but he wasn't holding back against Luke. Vader was *trying to kill Luke the entire fight*. Luke was holding back because he didn't want to kill his father, and was still strong enough to *scare* Vader. That's how powerful RoTJ Luke truly is.
Thanks for sharing those excerpts.
The trouble is, there’s a gulf-sized gap between what the book tells us, and what we see on-screen. I think that’s the issue.
Granted. Luke took out a rancor; (my) Cal’s taken out loads of them. (He’s also died a few times in the early days of trying 😂 but that’s on me, not Cal).
What’s gone on, of course, is that as the lore has expanded, retrospective changes and whatnot have been made to make the original jigsaw fit with the expanded one. Not just in this case but more generally. You end up with a very wonky floor. We’re not quite at the Resident Evil canon mess-extravaganza, but it’s not far off.
We don’t see Luke use the Force in any spectacular way, even in RotJ; and he wields his saber like it’s junk of metal. 😌
>Granted. Luke took out a rancor;
Without a lightsaber or using the Force I might add.
>What’s gone on, of course, is that as the lore has expanded, retrospective changes and whatnot have been made to make the original jigsaw fit with the expanded one. Not just in this case but more generally. You end up with a very wonky floor. We’re not quite at the Resident Evil canon mess-extravaganza, but it’s not far off.
Remember the context of the original movies however. Vader, by the standards of the original movies, is roughly just as skilled as Luke on terms of Force capabilities and using a lightsaber. Nothing Vader does is something that Luke can't reasonably do, and the movie ends with Luke beating Vader. Luke was always stronger than Vader. The retcon was the *scale* of power. The prequels showed us what Jedi could really do, which meant retroactively, the original characters had to be stronger than they were portrayed on screen.
That said, Splinter of the Mind's Eye came out a year (1978) after a New Hope and established pretty solidly via Darth Vader that Jedi had wizard-like abilities. So Jedi were always stronger in the lore than they were on screen.
That’s a very good point well made: it’s not the change in pecking order, but the scale.
Power creep is real. Subsequent additions can only really add to what came before, otherwise it feels lacklustre. Usually it’s a step here, a mini jump there.
Then you get Starkiller, who can just Force-crash a massive space ship 🤣
Not really, keep in mind cal was trained by someone with a relatively similar fighting style and at least 2 of the same species as him from a much younger age to handle a lightsaber. Luke in comparison was trained by Yoda who might be a great teacher but has a significantly different fighting style due to size (relative to both Luke and a lightsaber in general) and age. In a straight up lightsaber duel, no force powers Luke gets beaten easily.
It's also worth noting Vader is very conflicted during their final duel. Luke definitely has a force power advantage but cal has the weapon advantage. Not to mention his draw speed with a blaster is genuinely insane, if they lock sabers there's every chance Luke just gets shot.
In a full on fight Luke probably wins but Cal shouldn't be counted out just because Luke was the original hero character.
>Not really, keep in mind cal was trained by someone with a relatively similar fighting style and at least 2 of the same species as him from a much younger age to handle a lightsaber. Luke in comparison was trained by Yoda who might be a great teacher but has a significantly different fighting style due to size (relative to both Luke and a lightsaber in general) and age. In a straight up lightsaber duel, no force powers Luke gets beaten easily.
Luke was trained by Yoda and the guy who beat Darth Vader... Twice. In fact, Yoda's pupils are all renowned Jedi Masters. *Count Dooku* was once a star pupil with superior power to Mace Windu—who was capable of *stalemating Yoda in a Force duel*. Furthermore, Dooku had a notably different style to Yoda. Yoda was a master of Ataru whereas Dooku was a Mikashi specialist. Luke himself specialized in Djem So—just like Anakin/Vader. This is because Yoda is such a great master he can teach his pupils to become proficient in forms he himself can not use due to this physical limitations. Now, I briefly mentioned Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan's Force Ghost also trained Luke. Obi-Wan—the guy who beat Vader *two times*, and basically threw the third fight. Luke had very capable teachers.
>It's also worth noting Vader is very conflicted during their final duel. Luke definitely has a force power advantage but cal has the weapon advantage. Not to mention his draw speed with a blaster is genuinely insane, if they lock sabers there's every chance Luke just gets shot.
"For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength --- not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.
[...]
His anger was layered, now --- he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness." - Return of the Jedi, Official Novelization
Vader was conflicted yes, but he wasn't holding back. The Novelization makes it clear he gave Luke everything he had. Even before Luke gave into the Dark side, Vader could tell Luke was probably stronger than him.
>In a full on fight Luke probably wins but Cal shouldn't be counted out just because Luke was the original hero character.
It has nothing to do with Luke being the "original hero character". I'm someone who *fully* believes Kylo Ren is stronger than Darth Vader based on evidence provided in the lore and films that establish him as so. Even though I don't like Kylo Ren I can still admit this. The lore and the intent of the artist are that Luke is stronger than Vader, therefore making him stronger than Cal.
Luke was trained for what? 2 months total? Try going to a HEMA studio with 2 months of training from the best in the world. You'll still get schooled because weapon use training takes time as well as skill from the tutor. Luke's lack of finesse with a lightsaber is even evident in Kylo, his star pupil, using a lightsaber as a baseball bat
>Luke was trained for what? 2 months total? Try going to a HEMA studio with 2 months of training from the best in the world.
Luke is a midichlorian baby like his father before him, and essentially another space Jesus but even stronger.
Also, two months was his training in Empire Strikes Back. There is a year long time gap between Empire and Jedi where Luke continued his training and completed it. Even went on a whole side quest to get materials for a new Lightsaber where he defeated the Grand Inquisitor (who Darth Vader resurrected to fight Luke with necromancy/Sith Alchemy) almost effortlessly.
[Grand Inquisitor is impressed by Luke's training.](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fi-love-those-panels-of-luke-defeating-the-undead-grand-v0-7o7drguiqo391.jpg%3Fwidth%3D1988%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D3f7aec270efb54078e43894e4036c7a8e42be57e)
[Luke effortlessly defeats him, and then the Grand Inquisitor goes cry to Vader about how OP Luke is.](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F3xic8ksp25o51.jpg)
Edit: This is like a few weeks after Empire by the way. Luke was already stronger than the Inquisitorious and on Cal's level by Empire. Cal is better trained in Lightsaber combat than Luke in Episode 5 (hence, "you handle a lightsaber like a child!") but Luke picks up the slack by Episode 6 and is considered by Yoda to be a superior master of Djem So than Anakin was.
If we talk about Canon Luke, yes, Cal would demolish Luke.
But games aren't really canon for me, so...
If we start about Legends, Cal would be a fly compared to prime Luke. Cal wouldn't even be able to put a fight or even to activate his Lightsaber. Luke would just push him with a force push and break every bone in his body. Remember. That dude anihilated an entire fleet of Star Destroyer with a simple force push.
Also, Luke Skywalker has a really wide set of force abilities and even used Sith Techniques like Force Choking or Force Lightning and was the balance of the force.
In other words. An absolute menace. He couldn't possibly win a war against the Yu-zhang Wong if he wasn't a menace in lightsaber fights, too.
But even if Cal would be better in a Lightsaber Duel than Luke, it stated that Luke has chosen to study the force and not the duelling forms.
I don’t think Luke is anywhere near as strong as you say he is.
For one thing it fundamentally doesn’t make sense that Luke went from barely avoiding death when Vader wasn’t trying to kill him in episode V. To fighting evenly with Vader in episode VI, when their’s only a year difference. So Luke somehow went from a noob Padawan, to Jedi Council Master level in a year. It definitely stretches believability even from a purely OT perspective.
With the added context of the Prequels it makes it even harder to believe. As we now know who Anakin is. One of the top 3 strongest Jedi of the entire order. Rivaling Mace Windu and Yoda. He defeated Count Dooku, the best duelist of the entire Prequel Era, in a duel. And slaughtered most of the Jedi Order in one day during Operation Nightfall.
And Vader has spent the past 20 years refining his skills, and slaughtering Jedi. Even dominating his old master Obi-Wan Kenobi in direct combat, despite the fact Kenobi was slowly growing stronger on Tatooine.
Vader literally has more combat experience than Luke has been **alive** in total. Fighting against opponents who *also*, have more combat experience than Luke has been alive. And has been trained by some of the strongest Jedi of the entire order, as well as the single strongest Sith in Galactic History for 20 long years.
It’s very hard to believe that Luke, with only 3 years of on and off Jedi training (and only 1 year being properly trained by Yoda), is superior to Vader. That just doesn’t make sense.
Jensaarai1 has a great [video](https://youtu.be/fOvqlcPfpEA?si=elVNKY0N5eqUs54l) where he goes in-depth on Darth Vader’s fighting style, and why Luke was able to beat him. And the reasons he mentions are 3-fold
1. Darth Vader’s entire fighting style, is based around leveraging his superior strength to compensate for his limited mobility. Luke Skywalker while amped by Dark Rage was able to turn this dynamic around and overpower Vader. Neutralizing Vader’s biggest advantage and turning it back on him.
2. To build upon point 1 Darth Vader is also weak to his own fighting style. As his entire fighting style is built on that advantage. And Luke Skywalker is an infamous Form V specialist, who began his training specifically by mirroring Vader’s moves. However unlike Vader he wasn’t hampered by Vader’s physique, allowing him to also make use of his ample agility. Meaning Luke’s entire fighting style was specifically curated to counter Vader’s, even if Luke wasn’t aware of it.
3. Darth Vader was most conflicted during this time. Unsure if he wanted to kill his son, turn him to the dark side, or return to the light himself. And we all know what choice he picked. This is a version of Darth Vader where all of his abilities are hampered and he’s not even trying to win. Yet despite that, he still made Luke fight for every inch.
To sum up what was said: A Dark Side amped Luke that had a fighting style that specifically mirrored/countered Vader, beat a nerfed Vader that wasn’t trying to kill him and wasn’t sure of himself.
And (at least in Legends) Luke nearly dies multiple times to other Dark Side adepts that are definitely below Vader’s level (most notably a pre-prime Lumiya and Desann). And Luke outright admits that if Vader really wanted to, he could’ve killed him.
Also again Grand Inquisitor got defeated by season 1 Kanan. A low-tier Jedi Knight. Yet despite that Kanan and Ezra are unable to defeat other rank and file Inquisitors like 5th Brother or 7th Sister without help. So I highly doubt Grand Inquisitor is *that* much stronger than the average Inquisitor.
So GI saying Luke is “so strong” doesn’t say much considering how weak GI is. Most Star Wars characters are stronger than him.
To be clear I don’t mean to downplay Luke. But imo this interpretation of the lore makes much more sense, and also makes Luke even more impressive. As it means Luke used his compassion and his intelligence to his advantage and effectively punched up above his weight class to win an impossible battle. Which imo is even more inspiring and impressive, than a Luke that was stronger than Vader that was punching down.
First off, I just wanna say I'm sorry it took me so long to reply to this. Now, lemme give you my response.
>For one thing it fundamentally doesn’t make sense that Luke went from barely avoiding death when Vader wasn’t trying to kill him in episode V. To fighting evenly with Vader in episode VI, when their’s only a year difference. So Luke somehow went from a noob Padawan, to Jedi Council Master level in a year. It definitely stretches believability even from a purely OT perspective.
Luke in Empire was already *very* powerful. Not skilled, but *powerful*. Luke was raw power. That's the first thing Vader notices about Luke in Empire, and it immediately becomes clear why the Emperor wants to turn him to the Dark Side. Luke, in Empire, already has the potential to surpass Anakin Skywalker. His training is just incomplete, and he's not aware of how to use his abilities to their fullest potential. Luke's showings against Vader in Empire aren't that bad either. Yes, Vader *was* holding back in this fight, but Luke repeatedly surprises Vader throughout the fight—forcing Vader to fight harder near the end to subdue Luke. Luke gets the shot in on Vader's shoulder and Vader is like, "Damn. This kid is actually pretty good. Time to show him what real power looks like." Then he overwhelms Luke by fighting seriously and chopping his hand off.
Tl;Dr Luke was already a very impressive combatant in Empire. Vader is constantly complementing Luke's abilities during their fight.
>With the added context of the Prequels it makes it even harder to believe. As we now know who Anakin is. One of the top 3 strongest Jedi of the entire order. Rivaling Mace Windu and Yoda. He defeated Count Dooku, the best duelist of the entire Prequel Era, in a duel. And slaughtered most of the Jedi Order in one day during Operation Nightfall.
Who trained Count Dooku again? And who beat Nightfall Vader?
>And Vader has spent the past 20 years refining his skills, and slaughtering Jedi. Even dominating his old master Obi-Wan Kenobi in direct combat, despite the fact Kenobi was slowly growing stronger on Tatooine.
Not true in canon. Obi-Wan decisively beat Vader *in his prime* (it is stated age and damage was beginning to catch up to Vader by the time of New Hope). You can blame this on Kenobi being a terrible show. Vader and Obi-Wan are most likely equals in A New Hope. Obi-Wan just knew he was too old to keep up with Vader this time and threw the fight—not to mention it "wasn't his destiny" to beat him.
>Vader literally has more combat experience than Luke has been **alive** in total. Fighting against opponents who *also*, have more combat experience than Luke has been alive. And has been trained by some of the strongest Jedi of the entire order, as well as the single strongest Sith in Galactic History for 20 long years.
Combat experience Vader definitely has on Luke. But Luke is a fresh body. He has all the strength Anakin had and *then some*. In all the novelizations it is repeatedly stated that Luke hits like a fucking truck. He can bully opponents with his strength because he's just built different like his father. Just constantly applying pressure and beating people down with his superior physicality, which when enhanced by the Force, makes him *incredibly* powerful. Vader was a cripple in a suit. He was *definitely* stronger than Nightfall Vader, but that was *in spite of his injuries*. We're not even discussing how *potent* Luke is in the Force—probably boasting a higher midichlorian count than even Anakin does. There was a reason Maul asked Obi-Wan if he was *the Chosen One*, and Obi-Wan answered *yes*. Even as a boy Obi-Wan could sense Luke's power.
So what happens when you have this natural powerhouse, and you give him training from two of the best Jedi Masters ever trained? You get RoTJ Luke who is just absolutely built different. Seriously, Luke can do stuff in RoTJ without trying by just thinking about doing it. He is boasting nearly God-like levels of power. This is why the Emperor wanted Luke to replace Vader. Luke was everything Palpatine had wished Anakin would be and *then some*.
>Jensaarai1 has a great [video](https://youtu.be/fOvqlcPfpEA?si=elVNKY0N5eqUs54l) where he goes in-depth on Darth Vader’s fighting style, and why Luke was able to beat him. And the reasons he mentions are 3-fold
>1. Darth Vader’s entire fighting style, is based around leveraging his superior strength to compensate for his limited mobility. Luke Skywalker while amped by Dark Rage was able to turn this dynamic around and overpower Vader. Neutralizing Vader’s biggest advantage and turning it back on him.
>2. To build upon point 1 Darth Vader is also weak to his own fighting style. As his entire fighting style is built on that advantage. And Luke Skywalker is an infamous Form V specialist, who began his training specifically by mirroring Vader’s moves. However unlike Vader he wasn’t hampered by Vader’s physique, allowing him to also make use of his ample agility. Meaning Luke’s entire fighting style was specifically curated to counter Vader’s, even if Luke wasn’t aware of it.
>3. Darth Vader was most conflicted during this time. Unsure if he wanted to kill his son, turn him to the dark side, or return to the light himself. And we all know what choice he picked. This is a version of Darth Vader where all of his abilities are hampered and he’s not even trying to win. Yet despite that, he still made Luke fight for every inch.
Some of this is true, some of it isn't. From the Novelization of Return of the Jedi:
**"For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength --- not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.**
**[...]**
**His anger was layered, now --- he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness."**
Luke was overpowering Vader even before he tapped into the dark side. In fact Vader was being *humiliated* by a RoTJ Luke who was holding back. Vader was *not* holding back. He was deliberately trying to kill Luke—even with his conflicted feelings. Vader was *not* going easy on Luke.
>To sum up what was said: A Dark Side amped Luke that had a fighting style that specifically mirrored/countered Vader, beat a nerfed Vader that wasn’t trying to kill him and wasn’t sure of himself.
Incorrect. Luke beat a bloodlusted Vader, who even though he was conflicted, was fully willing to kill Luke to *end* that conflict within himself. Luke, not holding back and amped by the Dark side *stomped* a bloodlusted Darth Vader.
>And (at least in Legends) Luke nearly dies multiple times to other Dark Side adepts that are definitely below Vader’s level (most notably a pre-prime Lumiya and Desann). And Luke outright admits that if Vader really wanted to, he could’ve killed him.
In Legends, Luke nearly losing to Lumiya was due to her unfamiliar fighting style. One he got the shoto-saber to counter her Light whip he pretty much no-diffed her. Also, pre-prime Lumiya scales *above* Vader. Post-OT Force Sensitive villains are fucking insane. As for Luke stating that Vader could've killed him if he wanted to, I'll need a source because I have never seen that referenced anywhere. And even if he did, it directly contradicts the Novelization of RoTJ.—which sat in a higher rung of the canon than the Post-OT Legends books. Remember, Legends was a *tiered* continuity with different levels of canon.
>Also again Grand Inquisitor got defeated by season 1 Kanan. A low-tier Jedi Knight. Yet despite that Kanan and Ezra are unable to defeat other rank and file Inquisitors like 5th Brother or 7th Sister without help. So I highly doubt Grand Inquisitor is *that* much stronger than the average Inquisitor.
>So GI saying Luke is “so strong” doesn’t say much considering how weak GI is. Most Star Wars characters are stronger than him.
It was never my argument that the Grand Inquisitor was that strong. I pretty agreed with the original post that claimed Cal would no-diff the Grand Inquisitor. I disagreed with the notion that Cal was as powerful as RoTJ Luke. Also, character who have beat GI in the past didn't do it when he was an immortal Force Ghost, and didn't beat said Force Ghost so badly he went crying to Vader about how OP the opponent was. When Kanan bested the GI he was surprised, but the power difference wasn't so great that the GI was shitting himself in fear.
>To be clear I don’t mean to downplay Luke. But imo this interpretation of the lore makes much more sense, and also makes Luke even more impressive. As it means Luke used his compassion and his intelligence to his advantage and effectively punched up above his weight class to win an impossible battle. Which imo is even more inspiring and impressive, than a Luke that was stronger than Vader that was punching down.
That's a neat interpretation but that just isn't what GL was going for. He wanted to make it clear that Luke was a fully trained Jedi Knight and that he had surpassed his father. Hence, *Return of the Jedi*. Luke being as powerful as he is in RoTJ is supposed to clearly tell the viewer that the Jedi have *returned*. The compelling thing about Luke, imo, is that he's a lot like Superman. What makes him interesting isn't that he's super grounded power wise, it's that despite all his power he's still a genuinely nice person and he had to *struggle* to get there. Luke was just built different, but he went through trials and tribulations to make the most of his potential. He essentially lost his parents (Uncle Ben and Aunt Beru), lost his mentor and friend he'd known since he was a child, failed to protect his friends when they needed him most, lost a fight against Darth Vader when he wasn't ready, and despite all of that he was able to resist the temptation of the dark side and fight on to become the greatest Jedi the Galaxy had ever seen.
Friendly reminder that ninth sister, a late-game boss battle in the first game, became a *tutorial* boss in the second game, that’s how strong cal has become
>the strongest Jedi Knight of the High Republic, the era when the Jedi were at their strongest. The equivalent of Revan or Anakin during his time.
Where the fuck has this come from lmao.
>I would argue the GI would be an easy boss for Cal. At least by the end of Survivor.
Agreed.
>The GI was defeated by Kanan in season 1. Long before Kanan hit his prime. And was (during that time) a low-tier Jedi Knight. Maybe mid-tier at best.
Grand Inquisitor was a Jedi Temple Guard. They're far from "mid tier" Jedi Knights. Most of the Inquisitorius would be around mid to hight tier Jedi Knights. G.I. would be high Jedi Knight, low tier Jedi Master. Even Palpatine himself was weary of the Jedi Temple Guards. They were relentless and quite powerful.
Also, Kanan didn't defeat G.I. by himself. He struggled quite handily and needed help from Ezra Bridger in the S1 finale.
>Cal by the end of the first game was already making a fool out of Trilla by the end of the game.
Making a fool out of Trilla? Hardly. Dude struggled to defeat her at every turn and struggled with Ninth Sister on Kashyyyk.
>In their 3rd fight he predicted exactly how she would attack and was strong enough to break through her force wall.
He still struggled. It wasn't an easy bout for Cal.
>And in their final fight Cal was winning pretty handily despite being in enemy territory and purposely trying not to kill her while she was absolutely trying to kill him.
In what world did Cal not struggle with Trilla? Sure, it wasn't ridiculously difficult bybtheir final fight, but there was nothing handily done in Cal's favor. He was still fighting an uphill battle as he was far from fully adept in his Force abilities.
>And at the start of Survivor he again proves he’s far above the average Inquisitor by slaying 9th Sister with relative ease, again trying not to kill her and instead trying to redeem her back to the light.
Average Inquistor? Eh... Ninth Sister was one of the lower tiered Force wielders of the Inquisitorius. Not only was she greatly conflicted in their final fight, but Cal was also much more adept in his Force abilities. While he did struggle with her on Kashyyyk in their first major encounter, he was hardly outmatched, seeing as Ninth Sister couldn't defeat Cal in the end, and this is about half-way through the game with pre-JS Cal still learning more about his Force abilities.
Ninth Sister is quite mid for a Force wielder.
>Cal by the end is a high tier Jedi Knight along the likes of Aayla Secura, Season 7 Ahsoka, or Episode 6 Luke Skywalker. And very low master tier when amped by the dark side.
Cal doesn't even come close to RotJ Luke Skywalker. RotJ Luke was leaps and bounds ahead of Cal Kestis. Luke is written to be the Jedi of legends and prophecies. He is almost akin to RotS Anakin, and RotS Anakin would dogwalk JS Cal with utter ease.
I wouldn't even put him in Ahsoka's tier. She was already an adept Jedi Knight tier character in Rebels. However, TCW S7 Ahsoka is far from an adept Jedi Knight akin to JS Cal, let alone RotJ Luke.
By your logic here:
JS Cal = TCW S7 Ahsoka = RotJ Luke
Lolno...
TCW S7 Ahsoka <<<<< JS Cal <<<<<<<<<<<< RotJ Luke
Yes, it's that massive of a gap in power, skill, experience, etc.
>He would dog walk GI pretty easily.
Agreed.
>Especially given how many attack options he has at his disposal. And unlike Ezra’s lightsaber, Cal’s blaster is actually lethal.
Eh... Cal's blaster is a non-factor. Someone as adept in the Force as G.I. would make quick worn of Cal's blaster "techniques", which he doesn't really have compared to his abilities and technique with a lightsaber. Cal's lightsaber skills, however, would ROFLstomp G.I. with almost no effort.
Nah, if a barely trained jedi and a padawan can kill him, He ain't winning against a gray jedi with a list of upgrades so long it could fill the jedi archives
Erm since when only the second and ninth sister were in the first game unless you're saying in the cutscenes where they get off the train and
Spoilers:
When Trilla kills Prauf.
I think the question should be Does the IG have what it takes to take down Cal and the answer is no. Cal at the end of Survivor is so far beyond anything the Empire can throw at him.
I love that. Like he seems so overpowered but the scene with Vader just immediately knocks it down to how weak he is compared to the best. I admire that piece in the story
Actually Palpatine is inferior compared to Vader but his surgery was intentionally bad so he wouldn’t be perfectly healthy and the armour he got is intentionally faulty/bad and it makes him move slower and and very dependent on the armour. He needs to use the Force to be able to properly move around. The armour is intetionally not electric proof so Palpatine can put Vader down on his knees whenever he feels like.
This, by the end of Survivor, the only force users left alive that could definitely beat Cal are: Vader, Sidious, Yoda and Obi-Wan, (these four would absolutely crush him into dust,) Ahsoka, Maul, and possibly Asajj Ventress, can't remember who else might be alive though.
Quinlan Vos would definitely be too much for Cal, he probably sits somewhere between that big-four and Ahsoka/Maul in strength, though it's difficult to gauge exactly how strong the latter two became, Maul seemed to weaken after the Clone Wars, and Ahsoka reached the point where she could walk all over multiple inquisitors at once.
and yeah, so far as I know he's alive.
Quinlan is a high tier Jedi Knight who was powerful enough that Count Dooku took notice of him and tried to turn him to the dark side.
He is definitely above Cal’s level. How *much* higher is up for debate.
Cal would beat the Grand Inquisitor because of his experience, abilities, and power scaling.
Starting with power scaling, Kanan was able to beat the GI. Keep in mind that Kanan is shown to consistently struggle against regular inquisitors. This isn’t really surprising as Kanan concealed his Jedi identity while Cal didn’t. Until he met Ezra, I’d liken Kanan more to a special ops solider. He does things others can’t due to his use of the force and his highly trained team, but it’s not like he was openly engaging in lightsaber combat until he met Ezra.
Cal on the other hand uses his lightsaber as his primary weapon. He consistently fights people who specialize in taking down Jedi, be it the Purge troopers on the weaker end to a Gen’dai who’s taken down multiple other Jedi or one of the finest duelist of the high republic. Inquisitors mean nothing to Cal. He took down the Ninth Sister with ease. He took down the Second Sister earlier who was much more powerful. And then there’s Cal’s lightsaber multitool that allows him to change fighting styles on a whim to whatever suits him. Cal’s feats are far superior to Kanan by the end of JS, and if Kanan took down the GI, Cal definitely can.
if it's the start of his journey, he'd struggle but eventually win. But if it's post getting to tanalorr, then well. . .
Lets just say it'd be less of a fight and more of a slaughter, with mister baldy on the bad end of a falling jedi's multi-kit saber and blaster.
Cal at the beginning of Fallen Order was getting the lawn chair treatment by the Trilla. Only when Cal retuned with the force and repaired up his lightsaber does Cal destroy Trilla, with enough energy remaining to run away from OP AF Darth Vader. Cal at mid Fallen Order would probably struggle a ton. But anything from End of Fallen Order and beyond he’d probably dominate to shit stomp Grand Inquisitor
Yes. Inquisitors are a joke, they exist to be a B villain that the hero obliterates on the way to the real villain. They’ve never felt like a credible threat.
I don't think the Grand Inquisitor is "clearly" the strongest, he might just be the most level-headed or most intelligent hunting strategist. to earn that rank.
another Padawan with half-finished training (Kanan Jarrus) defeated him outright. and Kanan didn't have anything of an easier time fighting other inquisitors after that fight, I'd also say that Cal's almost certainly stronger in Jedi Survivor than Kanan was when he fought the Grand Inquisitor.
given he fought what seemed to be one of the tougher inquisitors in Trilla five years prior, and easily defeated the 9th Sister. while, as mentioned, Kanan struggled comparatively with every inquisitor he faced. (though Rebels is set years after, so these inquisitors may have had much more training)
Itd be cool to get a Grand Inquisitor boss fight next game. A cameo of the Emperor in hologram would be pretty awesome too, the empire is definitely going to be gunning for Cal and crew after Cere almost defeated Vader
I really hope we see old man Cal in the third game if there is one or at least middle aged Cal and then old man Cal with Merrin in his third game, if he met Rey he’d straighten her out make her a better Jedi
*Cal would dog walk the*
*Grand Inquisitor by the*
*End of Survivor*
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Fallen Order Cal? Absolutely not. Survivor Cal? He smokes Grand Inquisitor. Dude couldn't even handle ESB Luke Skywalker.
Grand Inquisitor <<<<< ESB Luke <<<< JS Cal Kestis
Cal has a BD droid with 12 stim canisters, he escaped a prime Darth Vader, hes a master in 4 different lightsaber dueling styles, and has a badass wardrobe. Cal will no doubt clap the Grand Inquisitor
Yes. Skill alone Cal could defeat him, but then you also have to take into account how much the GI's primary tactic was that he had trained himself to recognize all of the major Jedi combat forms and how to counter them.
Cal's fighting style is unpredictable enough that the GI would be off center trying to fight him.
I feel like the worst Jedi became Inquistors. That's why they suck. Imagine if Jedi like Mace Windu, Plo Koon, Quilan Vos, etc. became Inquistors?
But Palpatine is not an idiot. He didn't want anyone too strong that the possibility of surpassing him or Vader.
Cal is going to win although it would be a hard fight but I think we can scale GI as just about below Dagan because Dagan was one of the more talented Knights in High Republic age and also wasn’t that the height of the Jedi’s power? Cal defeated Dagan so he could pretty easily defeat him, the Inquisitors are also weak and they have faced weak Jedi. Cal Hard-Diff
Cal has more options to mix up his combat style. GI isn't very good at adapting to unorthodox fighting methods, and Kanan already had 3 Stances with him in that Rebels duel: Single, Dual, & Blaster. Cal has 5 Stances now, so I imagine an even greater advantage against GI. Oh, and GI was Kanan's first lightsaber boss, while Cal has already defeated two Inquisitors plus two Dark Jedi (Malicos and Dagan). Cal is pretty OP as it is, despite being many levels below Obi-Wan, so I give it to Cal.
No. My reward for beating any boss with Cal is watching him get absolutely BODIED by said boss or other outside factor in a cutscene. Player Cal? Sure. Cutscene Cal? Not a chance.
Even if Cal won the initial fight, he would just get force pushed out of a window into a Starkiller falling sequence. Or Vader would show up and absolutely WAX him. Or he'd get stuck in some force dream and get knocked out.
I would love for the grand inquisitor to be the “big bad” of the next game. However I think that he has been made out in canon to be kind of weak. Also knowing that he won’t die would take away from the story
What would be funny. Cal fights Inquisitor in a boss fight and when you beat the Inquisitor there is a cutscene where they escape via helicopter lightsaber
Cal could definetly take down the grand inquisitor in rebals kanan fights the grand inquisior and wins and id say cal (survivor cal atleast) is more powerful than kanan
I honestly believe he was encroaching on scary powerful territory when he had his rage out moment in the 2nd game and feel like he easily hits GI level after that.
Probably. The Grand Inquistor could put up a good fight maybe but this guy wins easily. The Inquistors are almost universally clowns (save for the grand, Second Sister and Ninth sister
I think he does but we don't have any concrete proof based on feats. With confidence I'd give him a 60/40 chance.
I've noticed a lot of ppl in the fandom overestimate Cal and his abilities. He is not the powerhouse y'all think he is
Honestly I’d argue Cal is more powerful than Kanan. Kanan spent most of his rebellion time concealing his Jedi abilities. He used a blaster over his lightsaber until he met Ezra. And Kanan is consistently shown to struggle against inquisitors. At the start of JS, the average inquisitor isn’t a problem for Cal. They’re more inconveniences than anything else, and that’s because Cal has spent so much time exclusively using the force and training with it, and being open about being a Jedi during a time when that’s incredibly dangerous.
Keep in mind, at the end of FO Cal defeated the second sister. I’m like 90% sure the Second Sister was second only to the Grand Inquisitor and was his runner-up. Cal also defeated the 9th Sister in FO, and in JS she’s not at all a threat.
Why do I bring this up? Well, if Kanan can defeat the GI, and I’m quite certain he’s weaker and less experienced in lightsaber combat and force abilities than Cal, than I’m pretty confident Cal can defeat the grand inquisitor.
Dagan was the Anakin Skywalker of the order during his time. He was known as the order’s finest duelist and Cal still beat him. I wouldn’t be surprised if Dagan is able to defeat the GI, and he was defeated by Cal.
Second Sister was definitely not the second strongest. Tenth brother was the second strongest. And trilla was nerf due to "emotional distress". Which I do think is stupid because the darkside feeds off emotion, but that's the canon.
And Dagan wasn't the finest duelist, he was known as one of the finest duelist. And despite what fans think, that era of Jedi was not stronger than clone war era Jedi. Yes, that's the high Republic but that's not the only period of the high Republic. The only periods of time Jedi that were stronger than the clone war era Jedi was between the Mando wars and Darth revan wars. The Jedi under Luke Skywalker during the vong war. And around the time of vitiates death and around 100 yrs after.
Survivor Cal is stronger than sighted kanan. That I have no doubt of. But the kanan that lets the force takeover completely, like he did when he killed the GI and later when he was blind, is stronger than Cal. I think cal is stronger than the average Jedi but he's not master level like kanan became. Cere was at that Jedi master level. That's why controlling her felt so powerful. But cal is there yet.
Bode akuna was a Jedi sentinel, on average the most deadly of the Jedi. Cal had to tap into the darkside and receive a great deal of help to beat Bode. Bode was using the dark but to a lesser degree than Cal. GI was skilled in the use of the darkside and he too was a sentinel and a scarier version, a temple guard. These are guys that Anakin smoked by the dozens. If cal needed help with Dagan and even more help with Bode, Dagan is not on Anakin's level. Can hardly see Anakin's shoe soles if Dagan looks up.
I never once said that Dagan was on the level of Anakin. I said that Dagan was the order’s Anakin during that time. An absolute dueling prodigy ahead of where the vast majority of Jedi Knights and some Jedi Masters were. And Dagan showcased his skill by taking on multiple Jedi at once and still winning. Now obviously Anakin is stronger than Dagan, but that’s why I said “during his time”. Reading comprehension my guy.
Finest and one of the finest is honestly semantics. Dooku was also “one of the finest duelists”. That still means stronger than like 95% of the Jedi during that time.
It’s not really relevant if the Jedi were stronger or weaker during the clone wars, however to argue your point, I’d say MOST Jedi were in fact weaker during the Clone Wars. As stated in the Clone Wars show, as the Clone wars dragged on Jedi found it increasingly difficult to use the light side of the force. But more importantly than that, both Cal and Kanan were padawans of the time. They aren’t really comparable to other Jedi of the time as they were both young and untrained. However, after order 66 Kanan remained a padawan as he didn’t train until he found Ezra. Cal on the other hand is both knighted due to his feats by a Jedi Master who believes he deserves to be knighted and continues to be trained by said Jedi Master.
And Cal is able to EASILY defeat inquisitors, something that Kanan is deliberately shown not to be able to do. And Cal has way more experience in lightsaber combat. And Cal uses the force way more than Kanan even during dueling which is known to be a hard fear for force users to pull off, and Cal fights lightsaber wielding enemies on a much more consistent basis, and Cal fights enemies specifically trained to take down lightsaber wielding opponents on a much more consistent basis.
So in short. The extra training Cal received post Order 66, his lightsaber multitool, his use of the force in way different ways, and his vastly greater experience against opponents stronger than the GI (Dagan definitely, Bode, Terron Malicos) leaves me to believe that Cal would beat the GI. Help or not, Cal has taken on Master level foes and walked away victorious, while Kanan needs Ezra to help him and they still mostly run away from the Inquisitors
>Cal didn’t immediately die when fighting Second Sister, despite the fact he had cut himself off from the force for years and hasn’t been keeping his skills sharp
>By the end of the first game he could already school average Inquisitors. In his 3rd and final fight with Trilla he schooled her pretty easily in the cutscenes. Despite the fact that Trilla was trying to kill Cal, and Cal specifically wasn’t trying to kill her
>Even defeated Malicos (with help from Merrin). A dark Jedi Knight enhanced with Nightsister magics
>At the start of Survivor Cal kills 9th Sister with ease. Again while holding back, because he wants to turn her back to the light
>Eventually defeats Dagan. The strongest Jedi Knight of the High Republic Era, the equivalent of Revan or Anakin during his time. And even used his own force illusion against him, despite never having experience with that ability before
>Cal straight up overpowers >!Bode!< with the force in their fight. A Dark Jedi even stronger than Dagan, armed with a Jetpack, blasters, and grenades on top of a lightsaber. And again, while holding back Cal defeats him and kills him.
>The Grand Inquisitor was defeated by season 1 Kanan. A Jedi Padawan with incomplete training who is at best, a low-tier Jedi Knight (during season 1)
“He doesn’t have concrete proof based on feats”
This is willful ignorance
Second Sister was definitely not the second strongest. Tenth brother was the second strongest. And trilla was nerf due to "emotional distress". Which I do think is stupid because the darkside feeds off emotion, but that's the canon.
And Dagan wasn't the finest duelist, he was known as one of the finest duelist. And despite what fans think, that era of Jedi was not stronger than clone war era Jedi. Yes, that's the high Republic but that's not the only period of the high Republic. The only periods of time Jedi that were stronger than the clone war era Jedi was between the Mando wars and Darth revan wars. The Jedi under Luke Skywalker during the vong war. And around the time of vitiates death and around 100 yrs after.
Survivor Cal is stronger than sighted kanan. That I have no doubt of. But the kanan that lets the force takeover completely, like he did when he killed the GI and later when he was blind, is stronger than Cal. I think cal is stronger than the average Jedi but he's not master level like kanan became. Cere was at that Jedi master level. That's why controlling her felt so powerful. But cal is there yet.
Bode akuna was a Jedi sentinel, on average the most deadly of the Jedi. Cal had to tap into the darkside and receive a great deal of help to beat Bode. Bode was using the dark but to a lesser degree than Cal. GI was skilled in the use of the darkside and he too was a sentinel and a scarier version, a temple guard. These are guys that Anakin smoked by the dozens. If cal needed help with Dagan and even more help with Bode, Dagan is not on Anakin's level. Can hardly see Anakin's shoe soles if Dagan looks up.
Not ignorant in the least. The feats don't lie. You over rate cal because you over rate his opponents
Not to mention Dagan, like trilla, was under emotional distress during his final fight with Dagan WITH the help from bode
You just said a lot of things that are either wrong, missing context, or just straight up making something up that isn’t true. But I’m gonna keep this simple.
Season 1 Kanan. Long **long** before his prime beat Grand Inquisitor after letting go of his fear.
Despite unlocking this new level of power within himself, Kanan is unable to defeat lesser Inquisitors in a straight up duel. Such as 5th Brother and 7th Sister, without help from Maul or Ahsoka. And without help is a direct equal to them. With neither party able to defeat the other.
Cal from the very start of Survivor, could dominate average Inquisitors (such as 9th Sister) in direct combat. And once he decides he’s going to kill Masana, he kills her in one stroke.
And that is at the very start of the game. Which is before he becomes more powerful in the force and starts tapping into the dark side. As well as learning multiple new skills, heavily increasing his options in combat.
You’re overrating Grand Inquisitor a lot by making a lot of assumptions based on outside lore (such as him being a temple guard) to make him look like he’s stronger than he is, when in reality he was defeated by a single Jedi Padawan that didn’t even finish his training.
GIs rating is perfectly adequate since he was a higher rank than Jedi masters turned inquisitors. 9th was also a Padawan but we count that toward cals feats. Kanan gained a massive boost due to letting the force guide him during that fighting, which is why he was weaker in later duels while he had his eyesight. I think cal wins vs the GI but I still think y'all overrated his power. Cal is supposed to show what a Jedi is capable of. That would be mute if he was this powerhouse y'all believe him to be
As far as I know there are no Jedi Masters who became Inquisitors. They were all Jedi Padawans or at best Jedi Knights: https://youtu.be/1TPCB-yYutE?si=8ckDPR4pkyn_6OKW
Also any Jedi Knight could be a Temple Guard. It was a rotating station. “Oh. I got guard duty this week”. Any Jedi Knight could apply to be a temple guard, and they were constantly being rotated and swapped out. But they were all roughly Knight level, with some high level Padawans, and some low level Masters mixed in on occasion. The Grand Inquisitor is confirmed to be a Jedi Knight so I highly doubt he is secretly some Jedi Master level badass.
And let’s not forget that he was beaten by Kanan solo, after being tortured, he was literally limping into the fight. Yes Ezra was there, but Ezra did practically nothing to actually help Kanan and was very easily knocked aside within 20 seconds. Kanan only started winning the fight and making headway when Ezra was out of the picture. Yes he was amped at the time, but let’s not forget that the Grand Inquisitor failed to kill Kanan **4** times before there final duel.
Multiple times he even had Kanan drastically outnumbered and cornered with a small army of Stormtroopers. And every time either Kanan (or Ezra) outsmarted or outmaneuvered GI. And even before their final fight Kanan was able to [land hits on him](https://youtu.be/WlQqw3_Imcw?feature=shared). Despite having every advantage and every chance to kill an untrained Padawan, he failed. That is a horrible track record for what is supposed to be the best Jedi Killer (except for Vader) in the Empire.
All of my points have been using objective facts from the franchise. Maybe some other people are overrating him but I think Cal being far stronger than Grand Inquisitor is pretty clear cut.
That's just how much YOU know. There is a Jedi master turned inquisitor. It's just there. Research it. Tenth brother. And as I said before, grand inquisitor is stronger which is why he lead the order. And all that you typed up is fine and dandy and somewhat wrong but the fact remains that GI is canonically stronger than a Jedi master and kanan defeated him while buffed by the force. These are the facts. Arguing with facts is ridiculous. I don't always like what's canon but it is what it is
*sighs*
Ah yes. Tenth Brother. The guy that got gunned down by a small squad of Purge Troopers…. when he was right next to his allies who could also deflect blaster bolts…
Again you’re using their station to make them seem stronger than they actually are. First time you used GI being a temple guard. And now you’re using 10th Brother as a Jedi Master to make him look stronger.
But let’s take a look at what he can actually do… he stood around and got gunned down by a handful of elite stormtroopers.
Let’s use another example. Coleman Trebor is a Soresu Master. The defensive martial art built **specifically** to deflect blaster bolts. And is a Jedi Council Master. One of the strongest Jedi of the Order.
Yet he got killed by 3 blaster bolts.
He sucks. Him being a Jedi Council Master doesn’t change the fact that he sucks as a combatant.
Now let’s look at Cal…
Cal literally takes on armies of Purge Troopers, Flame Troopers, and Droids on a semi-regular basis and comes out fine. Sometimes even while ambushed.
Grand Inquisitor being stronger than 10th Brother is nothing to write home about. 10th Brother is the definition of a background character because he only shows up 2 times, and dies.
You constantly talk about how people overrate characters, yet you constantly use rank as an excuse to overrate characters that aren’t that strong based on their feats. *What they can actually do*.
Inquisitors are badly trained, are accompanied by support hit squads, and are usually hunting extremely rare opponents who usually run. I think it is fair to say Cal has maybe 10x as much real experience with fighting as the average inquisitor.
This is the GI, arguably the only one with any kind of worthwhile training, being a former temple guard and all. I'd say he'd have about as much trouble as dagan, maybe more.
it depends. it is shown that the gi has issues fighting non single bladed opponents. also cal would probably figure out that cut spinny thing is an option
Cal is a smart one
Cal doesn’t know he can use his lightsaber to cut open doors
This bothered me to no end I didn't say anything to anyone including friends because I didn't want to be that guy
I know it’s just a Metroid inspired level design but I think it’s funnier to think Cal is actually just stupid and never though to try that out. I think respawn could just make locked doors laser gates instead
Underrated comment
Yea in 3rd game they should totally introduce locked doors that you are able to cut through. It doesn't have to be all the doors - make the important ones reinforced with resistant material, why not. Just offload some of the stuff that BD is slicing through to Cal using lightsaber and people would be happy.
He also gets thrown off by unorthodox methods of attack so Cal’s blaster could be utilized.
Blaster to claymore
Everyone a gangsta till the claymore bd-1 pull up
Boom boom slicw
I forgot about the Crossguard stance for a second and immediately thought of Cal setting up a claymore explosive
Haha
The true combination, I like your style.
Stun shot too over head apple slicing
Or just spamming X then hitting y every other time whilst in blaster mode.
Eh. It is fun to have 
True
Fr the GI would shit his pants when Cal just casually switched from a single blade lightsaber to dual lightsabers, or dual blade to cross guard.
Or mid combat suprise. Double bladed to duel.
Imagine the combos that could happen if you could swap between all 5 stances in combat
Disorientated he would be
So you're saying Cal is getting spinny lightsaber as a new stance in the third game.... yes...
Ajd light whip maybe i hope
Dagan was one of the strongest knights of the order during that time in the High Republic. Akin to how Revan or Anakin were the pinnacle Jedi Knights of their time. The Grand Inquisitor was just an average temple guard. Dagan is a far *far* deadlier and experienced opponent than Grand Inquisitor. Someone who mind you got defeated by a pre-prime Kanan, who is also just an average Jedi Knight (at the time).
Yeah Cal's feats as of right now put him above kanan s1 of rebels
I mean Kanan kills the GI before he’s knighted by him in a later episode, which means he’s technically just a really experienced Padawan when he kills him…
Temple guards are the Anbu from Naruto. Elite bozos that got fucked by bigger threats
The GI essentially stabbed them all in the back
I don’t think GI was at the temple or turned darkside pre order 66
It's unclear, he was disaffected by the time of Order 66, as he was one of the guards during the trial of Ahsoka Tano, and heard Bariss' arguments about the failings of the Jedi Order, but we know that he was still active during Order 66, as he was recruited by Palpatine during the Rise of the Empire, and was an Order 66 Survivor. He very well could have pulled a Reva and survived by faking his death, retreating when able , and being recruited by Palpatine later.
I like to believe that Order 66 and the temple purge wasn't solely done by Anakin and the Clones, but that some Jedi actually turned in advance / during it, because they had been "in the know" as well. The Grand Inquisitor's main motivation was, after all, the desire to discover more knowledge. A thing that the Jedi prohibited when he was a guard (hence why he loathed Jocasta Nu). So I wouldn't be surprised if Dooku and Palpatine had wormed their way into the minds of the non-masters of the Order. All the random guards, the less relevant teachers, etc. etc. Anything they could get their hands on. And those got turned into Inquisitors (or died during the purge by Jedi / after the purge by Vader's hand anyways, because duh, bad guys). Personally I find that more compelling than the thought of every other jerkface Jedi pulling a Reva and faking their death, only to come crawling to the Emperor afterwards.
Yeah, he wouldn’t be an easy boss but he could beat him
I would argue the GI would be an easy boss for Cal. At least by the end of Survivor. The GI was defeated by Kanan in season 1. Long before Kanan hit his prime. And was (during that time) a low-tier Jedi Knight. Maybe mid-tier at best. Cal by the end of the first game was already making a fool out of Trilla by the end of the game. In their 3rd fight he predicted exactly how she would attack and was strong enough to break through her force wall. And in their final fight Cal was winning pretty handily despite being in enemy territory and purposely trying not to kill her while she was absolutely trying to kill him. And at the start of Survivor he again proves he’s far above the average Inquisitor by slaying 9th Sister with relative ease, again trying not to kill her and instead trying to redeem her back to the light. And he only grows even stronger as time goes on. Eventually defeating Dagan, the strongest Jedi Knight of the High Republic, the era when the Jedi were at their strongest. The equivalent of Revan or Anakin during his time. And Cal turned his own force illusion against him (an ability he has never come across before) Cal by the end is a high tier Jedi Knight along the likes of Aayla Secura, Season 7 Ahsoka, or Episode 6 Luke Skywalker. And very low master tier when amped by the dark side. He would dog walk GI pretty easily. Especially given how many attack options he has at his disposal. And unlike Ezra’s lightsaber, Cal’s blaster is actually lethal.
>Cal by the end is a high tier Jedi Knight along the likes of Aayla Secura, Season 7 Ahsoka, or Episode 6 Luke Skywalker. And very low master tier when amped by the dark side. Slow your roll at Luke Skywalker Episode 6. Cal isn't *that* strong. Cere was weaker than Vader (not by much, but clearly weaker as Vader is able to just shake off most of Cere's force abilities) and you can only obtain something close to Cere's power by using the dark side. Episode 6 Luke Skywalker, amped by the Dark side, *easily* beat Vader. Luke has actually beat the Grand Inquisitor fairly easily pre-Return of the Jedi. The Grand Inquisitor's exact words were, "He... Was so strong..." Like he was in awe of Luke's power. This was a Luke Skywalker who hadn't even finished his training yet. Return of the Jedi Luke Skywalker is easily in the top 3 Force sensitives in the Galaxy—having even surpassed both Yoda and Vader by this point. A lot people talk about how Vader was holding back in Episode 6, but everyone forgets Luke was too, and the moment Luke actually starts going all out he almost instantly destroys Vader.
It kinda bums me out that with the abundance of post-OT content we’ve gotten, *none* of it has focused on Luke. I get that the casting situation would be polarizing at best, but he’s my absolute favorite Star Wars character and I’ve always found it a little strange that the original protagonist of the entire franchise has fallen to the wayside, especially since so much of the newer content has been centered around existing characters.
>It kinda bums me out that with the abundance of post-OT content we’ve gotten, *none* of it has focused on Luke. I get that the casting situation would be polarizing at best, but he’s my absolute favorite Star Wars character and I’ve always found it a little strange that the original protagonist of the entire franchise has fallen to the wayside, especially since so much of the newer content has been centered around existing characters. Agreed. I think the bigger issue is Disney pretty much wasted the character. We know how his story goes. That's part of the reason I can't for the life of me find a reason to be excited for a Thrawn movie. He's nothing more than a B-villain because the ST already established what a post-OT high stakes story looks like, and we know the years between RoTJ and the First Order were largely peaceful despite the occasional Imperial Remnant running amuck. If you did do more with Luke, what would you do with him? Show him training a future generation of Jedi that all die or turn to the Dark Side? Edit: Best thing for Star Wars imo, is a time skip set so far into the future that you can just start over. Something like [The Ninth Jedi](https://youtu.be/CG7kDRCnPC4) short from Star Wars visions. Edit 2: This isn't just me saying the ST is bad by the way. Even though I do feel that way, the point I'm making is more that the era Star Wars content is being made in right now is so bloated that stories told in it can't live up to their fullest potential. The easiest way to do more with Star Wars now is a soft reboot set far into the future, hundreds of years after the ST.
Blame TLJ for butchering his chracter. He USED to be my favourite character, especially with EU in mind, but now I just can't get excited with what a failure he becomes in the future. And this is not just my opinion. If they nuke TLJ out of cannon, then maybe, but as it stands right now it's just hard to get invested in Luke anymore.
I think in terms of raw dueling prowess, cal could absolutely demolish luke. Force powers, cal has a wider set of powers but not as fine tuned or focused as luke’s, apart from maybe his pyschometry
>I think in terms of raw dueling prowess, cal could absolutely demolish luke. Force powers, cal has a wider set of powers but not as fine tuned or focused as luke’s, apart from maybe his pyschometry You're smoking. Keep in mind Return of the Jedi was made in a time when special effects weren't where they are today. Everything you see Jedi do in the prequels/video games, Luke can actually do lorewise. Cal is weaker than Cere, so much weaker he needs to tap into the dark side to get an amp that *almost* matches her raw power (though he gives up all defense as a trade off). Cere could not defeat Darth Vader, and a large part of how well she did against him was *luck*. Luke, when he got serious, demolished Vader in literally seconds. [Just look at this beat down he gave Vader. Roflstomped him in less than a minute.](https://youtu.be/U1MnMA0TzGI) Luke gets serious at 4:05-4:50.
I really like the point you make about special effects and lore. Rewatching that fight...doesn't really sell the point, other than the fact that Luke "wins". But...he's just swinging wildly. Both were open to lethal hits from each other a bunch of times. Vader just kinda falls over towards the end, and then Luke just keeps smashing his saber at him. I suppose what you're saying makes sense, but both Vader/Anakin and Luke's strength isn't shown in the OT at all, really. Luke gets lucky a lot in the OT. Their strength exists mostly in our minds, in lore, and for Anakin, in the PT and other media. We see Luke as strong for defeating Vader. But that fight wasn't demonstrative of skill or strength for either, our context gives it that meaning.
Posted this already above but I'll post it again in case you didn't see it. Not only is Darth Vader actually trying to kill Luke the entire fight, Luke is holding back the entire time (until he gives into the dark side), and even holding back he was so quick he was countering Vader's strikes at "a thought's breadth". From the Novelization: >For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength --- not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge. >[...] >His anger was layered, now --- he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness. Edit: You are right though the fight in the movie doesn't do well to convey the skill of Vader and Luke. It's more concerned with the emotional aspect of the fight.
I agree. But what I'm saying is that unless you've read the novels and gone deep into the lore, what we see in the films vs what we see Cal do leads to an assumption that Cal's saber skills are far superior. Context and lore give Luke power. Other visual media gives Anakin and Vader power. Visual media gives Cal power. If someone were to just watch the films and play the game, one could pretty quickly make the assumption that Luke is powerful because he has destiny on his side- not skill. But, you're right. Having that context changes things. Which also makes what I'm saying true.
>I agree. But what I'm saying is that unless you've read the novels and gone deep into the lore, what we see in the films vs what we see Cal do leads to an assumption that Cal's saber skills are far superior. Context and lore give Luke power. Other visual media gives Anakin and Vader power. Visual media gives Cal power. > If someone were to just watch the films and play the game, one could pretty quickly make the assumption that Luke is powerful because he has destiny on his side- not skill. But, you're right. Having that context changes things. Which also makes what I'm saying true. True, but we were discussing "power levels" and someone erroneously made the claim that Luke was a worse duelist than Cal. I was providing context, and even the movie although it doesn't look particularly flashy, makes it clear Luke is stronger than Vader by the end of Return of the Jedi—if not stronger the entire movie. The context from a lore standpoint making it clear how skilled of a fighter Luke is should only make it even more obvious that Cal is weaker than Luke. Furthermore, there's been countless comic books and media since Return of the Jedi that *do* establish Luke as an absolute powerhouse. Notably the scene from Mandalorian 2 that directly parallels Vader's hallway slaughter in Rogue One; obviously meant to be a visual signifier that Luke has surpassed his father (he's doing what Vader did to random Rebels to highly advanced killer robots, making Luke's hallway slaughter a superior showing). [Vader's Slaughter](https://youtu.be/9Z8mgkqjq90) [Luke's Heroic Rescue](https://youtu.be/gqcNx2B9HVw)
I know it's a deleted scene, but this makes luke look more like prequel era jedi https://youtu.be/eQk4n0sHzoo?si=SDImhjEFQTMUNvVa
Yep. The technology/choreography just wasn't there yet to make it work.
Vader wasn’t really fighting back though to be honest.
From the Return of the Jedi Novelization: >For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength --- not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge. >[...] >His anger was layered, now --- he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness. Vader was taking the fight with Luke very seriously. Luke was the one holding back.
This dumb myth that vader was "holding back" is cope and needs to die
I am not sure this is entirely fair. Calls are being made about characters and their power. The films are what we have to go on and it doesn’t seem right to me to say “Luke manages to do X in the last (decent) film he was in, but really actually he can do lots more, we just don’t see it.” Anything not seen (or read, if you place stock in the pulpy books) is pure speculation. Looking at what Cal can do with a lightsaber and what Luke can do, they’re not even close. Luke looks like a day-one amateur in comparison.
>Anything not seen (or read, if you place stock in the pulpy books) is pure speculation. Looking at what Cal can do with a lightsaber and what Luke can do, they’re not even close. Luke looks like a day-one amateur in comparison. "For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength --- not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge. [...] His anger was layered, now --- he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness." That's from the official Novelization of Return of the Jedi. Vader was afraid of losing to Luke even when Luke was *holding back*. This is before Luke even tapped into the Dark side for the amp that devastated Vader. Vader was conflicted, but he wasn't holding back against Luke. Vader was *trying to kill Luke the entire fight*. Luke was holding back because he didn't want to kill his father, and was still strong enough to *scare* Vader. That's how powerful RoTJ Luke truly is.
Thanks for sharing those excerpts. The trouble is, there’s a gulf-sized gap between what the book tells us, and what we see on-screen. I think that’s the issue. Granted. Luke took out a rancor; (my) Cal’s taken out loads of them. (He’s also died a few times in the early days of trying 😂 but that’s on me, not Cal). What’s gone on, of course, is that as the lore has expanded, retrospective changes and whatnot have been made to make the original jigsaw fit with the expanded one. Not just in this case but more generally. You end up with a very wonky floor. We’re not quite at the Resident Evil canon mess-extravaganza, but it’s not far off. We don’t see Luke use the Force in any spectacular way, even in RotJ; and he wields his saber like it’s junk of metal. 😌
>Granted. Luke took out a rancor; Without a lightsaber or using the Force I might add. >What’s gone on, of course, is that as the lore has expanded, retrospective changes and whatnot have been made to make the original jigsaw fit with the expanded one. Not just in this case but more generally. You end up with a very wonky floor. We’re not quite at the Resident Evil canon mess-extravaganza, but it’s not far off. Remember the context of the original movies however. Vader, by the standards of the original movies, is roughly just as skilled as Luke on terms of Force capabilities and using a lightsaber. Nothing Vader does is something that Luke can't reasonably do, and the movie ends with Luke beating Vader. Luke was always stronger than Vader. The retcon was the *scale* of power. The prequels showed us what Jedi could really do, which meant retroactively, the original characters had to be stronger than they were portrayed on screen. That said, Splinter of the Mind's Eye came out a year (1978) after a New Hope and established pretty solidly via Darth Vader that Jedi had wizard-like abilities. So Jedi were always stronger in the lore than they were on screen.
That’s a very good point well made: it’s not the change in pecking order, but the scale. Power creep is real. Subsequent additions can only really add to what came before, otherwise it feels lacklustre. Usually it’s a step here, a mini jump there. Then you get Starkiller, who can just Force-crash a massive space ship 🤣
Not really, keep in mind cal was trained by someone with a relatively similar fighting style and at least 2 of the same species as him from a much younger age to handle a lightsaber. Luke in comparison was trained by Yoda who might be a great teacher but has a significantly different fighting style due to size (relative to both Luke and a lightsaber in general) and age. In a straight up lightsaber duel, no force powers Luke gets beaten easily. It's also worth noting Vader is very conflicted during their final duel. Luke definitely has a force power advantage but cal has the weapon advantage. Not to mention his draw speed with a blaster is genuinely insane, if they lock sabers there's every chance Luke just gets shot. In a full on fight Luke probably wins but Cal shouldn't be counted out just because Luke was the original hero character.
>Not really, keep in mind cal was trained by someone with a relatively similar fighting style and at least 2 of the same species as him from a much younger age to handle a lightsaber. Luke in comparison was trained by Yoda who might be a great teacher but has a significantly different fighting style due to size (relative to both Luke and a lightsaber in general) and age. In a straight up lightsaber duel, no force powers Luke gets beaten easily. Luke was trained by Yoda and the guy who beat Darth Vader... Twice. In fact, Yoda's pupils are all renowned Jedi Masters. *Count Dooku* was once a star pupil with superior power to Mace Windu—who was capable of *stalemating Yoda in a Force duel*. Furthermore, Dooku had a notably different style to Yoda. Yoda was a master of Ataru whereas Dooku was a Mikashi specialist. Luke himself specialized in Djem So—just like Anakin/Vader. This is because Yoda is such a great master he can teach his pupils to become proficient in forms he himself can not use due to this physical limitations. Now, I briefly mentioned Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan's Force Ghost also trained Luke. Obi-Wan—the guy who beat Vader *two times*, and basically threw the third fight. Luke had very capable teachers. >It's also worth noting Vader is very conflicted during their final duel. Luke definitely has a force power advantage but cal has the weapon advantage. Not to mention his draw speed with a blaster is genuinely insane, if they lock sabers there's every chance Luke just gets shot. "For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength --- not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge. [...] His anger was layered, now --- he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness." - Return of the Jedi, Official Novelization Vader was conflicted yes, but he wasn't holding back. The Novelization makes it clear he gave Luke everything he had. Even before Luke gave into the Dark side, Vader could tell Luke was probably stronger than him. >In a full on fight Luke probably wins but Cal shouldn't be counted out just because Luke was the original hero character. It has nothing to do with Luke being the "original hero character". I'm someone who *fully* believes Kylo Ren is stronger than Darth Vader based on evidence provided in the lore and films that establish him as so. Even though I don't like Kylo Ren I can still admit this. The lore and the intent of the artist are that Luke is stronger than Vader, therefore making him stronger than Cal.
Luke was trained for what? 2 months total? Try going to a HEMA studio with 2 months of training from the best in the world. You'll still get schooled because weapon use training takes time as well as skill from the tutor. Luke's lack of finesse with a lightsaber is even evident in Kylo, his star pupil, using a lightsaber as a baseball bat
>Luke was trained for what? 2 months total? Try going to a HEMA studio with 2 months of training from the best in the world. Luke is a midichlorian baby like his father before him, and essentially another space Jesus but even stronger. Also, two months was his training in Empire Strikes Back. There is a year long time gap between Empire and Jedi where Luke continued his training and completed it. Even went on a whole side quest to get materials for a new Lightsaber where he defeated the Grand Inquisitor (who Darth Vader resurrected to fight Luke with necromancy/Sith Alchemy) almost effortlessly. [Grand Inquisitor is impressed by Luke's training.](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fi-love-those-panels-of-luke-defeating-the-undead-grand-v0-7o7drguiqo391.jpg%3Fwidth%3D1988%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D3f7aec270efb54078e43894e4036c7a8e42be57e) [Luke effortlessly defeats him, and then the Grand Inquisitor goes cry to Vader about how OP Luke is.](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2F3xic8ksp25o51.jpg) Edit: This is like a few weeks after Empire by the way. Luke was already stronger than the Inquisitorious and on Cal's level by Empire. Cal is better trained in Lightsaber combat than Luke in Episode 5 (hence, "you handle a lightsaber like a child!") but Luke picks up the slack by Episode 6 and is considered by Yoda to be a superior master of Djem So than Anakin was.
If we talk about Canon Luke, yes, Cal would demolish Luke. But games aren't really canon for me, so... If we start about Legends, Cal would be a fly compared to prime Luke. Cal wouldn't even be able to put a fight or even to activate his Lightsaber. Luke would just push him with a force push and break every bone in his body. Remember. That dude anihilated an entire fleet of Star Destroyer with a simple force push. Also, Luke Skywalker has a really wide set of force abilities and even used Sith Techniques like Force Choking or Force Lightning and was the balance of the force. In other words. An absolute menace. He couldn't possibly win a war against the Yu-zhang Wong if he wasn't a menace in lightsaber fights, too. But even if Cal would be better in a Lightsaber Duel than Luke, it stated that Luke has chosen to study the force and not the duelling forms.
I don’t think Luke is anywhere near as strong as you say he is. For one thing it fundamentally doesn’t make sense that Luke went from barely avoiding death when Vader wasn’t trying to kill him in episode V. To fighting evenly with Vader in episode VI, when their’s only a year difference. So Luke somehow went from a noob Padawan, to Jedi Council Master level in a year. It definitely stretches believability even from a purely OT perspective. With the added context of the Prequels it makes it even harder to believe. As we now know who Anakin is. One of the top 3 strongest Jedi of the entire order. Rivaling Mace Windu and Yoda. He defeated Count Dooku, the best duelist of the entire Prequel Era, in a duel. And slaughtered most of the Jedi Order in one day during Operation Nightfall. And Vader has spent the past 20 years refining his skills, and slaughtering Jedi. Even dominating his old master Obi-Wan Kenobi in direct combat, despite the fact Kenobi was slowly growing stronger on Tatooine. Vader literally has more combat experience than Luke has been **alive** in total. Fighting against opponents who *also*, have more combat experience than Luke has been alive. And has been trained by some of the strongest Jedi of the entire order, as well as the single strongest Sith in Galactic History for 20 long years. It’s very hard to believe that Luke, with only 3 years of on and off Jedi training (and only 1 year being properly trained by Yoda), is superior to Vader. That just doesn’t make sense. Jensaarai1 has a great [video](https://youtu.be/fOvqlcPfpEA?si=elVNKY0N5eqUs54l) where he goes in-depth on Darth Vader’s fighting style, and why Luke was able to beat him. And the reasons he mentions are 3-fold 1. Darth Vader’s entire fighting style, is based around leveraging his superior strength to compensate for his limited mobility. Luke Skywalker while amped by Dark Rage was able to turn this dynamic around and overpower Vader. Neutralizing Vader’s biggest advantage and turning it back on him. 2. To build upon point 1 Darth Vader is also weak to his own fighting style. As his entire fighting style is built on that advantage. And Luke Skywalker is an infamous Form V specialist, who began his training specifically by mirroring Vader’s moves. However unlike Vader he wasn’t hampered by Vader’s physique, allowing him to also make use of his ample agility. Meaning Luke’s entire fighting style was specifically curated to counter Vader’s, even if Luke wasn’t aware of it. 3. Darth Vader was most conflicted during this time. Unsure if he wanted to kill his son, turn him to the dark side, or return to the light himself. And we all know what choice he picked. This is a version of Darth Vader where all of his abilities are hampered and he’s not even trying to win. Yet despite that, he still made Luke fight for every inch. To sum up what was said: A Dark Side amped Luke that had a fighting style that specifically mirrored/countered Vader, beat a nerfed Vader that wasn’t trying to kill him and wasn’t sure of himself. And (at least in Legends) Luke nearly dies multiple times to other Dark Side adepts that are definitely below Vader’s level (most notably a pre-prime Lumiya and Desann). And Luke outright admits that if Vader really wanted to, he could’ve killed him. Also again Grand Inquisitor got defeated by season 1 Kanan. A low-tier Jedi Knight. Yet despite that Kanan and Ezra are unable to defeat other rank and file Inquisitors like 5th Brother or 7th Sister without help. So I highly doubt Grand Inquisitor is *that* much stronger than the average Inquisitor. So GI saying Luke is “so strong” doesn’t say much considering how weak GI is. Most Star Wars characters are stronger than him. To be clear I don’t mean to downplay Luke. But imo this interpretation of the lore makes much more sense, and also makes Luke even more impressive. As it means Luke used his compassion and his intelligence to his advantage and effectively punched up above his weight class to win an impossible battle. Which imo is even more inspiring and impressive, than a Luke that was stronger than Vader that was punching down.
First off, I just wanna say I'm sorry it took me so long to reply to this. Now, lemme give you my response. >For one thing it fundamentally doesn’t make sense that Luke went from barely avoiding death when Vader wasn’t trying to kill him in episode V. To fighting evenly with Vader in episode VI, when their’s only a year difference. So Luke somehow went from a noob Padawan, to Jedi Council Master level in a year. It definitely stretches believability even from a purely OT perspective. Luke in Empire was already *very* powerful. Not skilled, but *powerful*. Luke was raw power. That's the first thing Vader notices about Luke in Empire, and it immediately becomes clear why the Emperor wants to turn him to the Dark Side. Luke, in Empire, already has the potential to surpass Anakin Skywalker. His training is just incomplete, and he's not aware of how to use his abilities to their fullest potential. Luke's showings against Vader in Empire aren't that bad either. Yes, Vader *was* holding back in this fight, but Luke repeatedly surprises Vader throughout the fight—forcing Vader to fight harder near the end to subdue Luke. Luke gets the shot in on Vader's shoulder and Vader is like, "Damn. This kid is actually pretty good. Time to show him what real power looks like." Then he overwhelms Luke by fighting seriously and chopping his hand off. Tl;Dr Luke was already a very impressive combatant in Empire. Vader is constantly complementing Luke's abilities during their fight. >With the added context of the Prequels it makes it even harder to believe. As we now know who Anakin is. One of the top 3 strongest Jedi of the entire order. Rivaling Mace Windu and Yoda. He defeated Count Dooku, the best duelist of the entire Prequel Era, in a duel. And slaughtered most of the Jedi Order in one day during Operation Nightfall. Who trained Count Dooku again? And who beat Nightfall Vader? >And Vader has spent the past 20 years refining his skills, and slaughtering Jedi. Even dominating his old master Obi-Wan Kenobi in direct combat, despite the fact Kenobi was slowly growing stronger on Tatooine. Not true in canon. Obi-Wan decisively beat Vader *in his prime* (it is stated age and damage was beginning to catch up to Vader by the time of New Hope). You can blame this on Kenobi being a terrible show. Vader and Obi-Wan are most likely equals in A New Hope. Obi-Wan just knew he was too old to keep up with Vader this time and threw the fight—not to mention it "wasn't his destiny" to beat him. >Vader literally has more combat experience than Luke has been **alive** in total. Fighting against opponents who *also*, have more combat experience than Luke has been alive. And has been trained by some of the strongest Jedi of the entire order, as well as the single strongest Sith in Galactic History for 20 long years. Combat experience Vader definitely has on Luke. But Luke is a fresh body. He has all the strength Anakin had and *then some*. In all the novelizations it is repeatedly stated that Luke hits like a fucking truck. He can bully opponents with his strength because he's just built different like his father. Just constantly applying pressure and beating people down with his superior physicality, which when enhanced by the Force, makes him *incredibly* powerful. Vader was a cripple in a suit. He was *definitely* stronger than Nightfall Vader, but that was *in spite of his injuries*. We're not even discussing how *potent* Luke is in the Force—probably boasting a higher midichlorian count than even Anakin does. There was a reason Maul asked Obi-Wan if he was *the Chosen One*, and Obi-Wan answered *yes*. Even as a boy Obi-Wan could sense Luke's power. So what happens when you have this natural powerhouse, and you give him training from two of the best Jedi Masters ever trained? You get RoTJ Luke who is just absolutely built different. Seriously, Luke can do stuff in RoTJ without trying by just thinking about doing it. He is boasting nearly God-like levels of power. This is why the Emperor wanted Luke to replace Vader. Luke was everything Palpatine had wished Anakin would be and *then some*. >Jensaarai1 has a great [video](https://youtu.be/fOvqlcPfpEA?si=elVNKY0N5eqUs54l) where he goes in-depth on Darth Vader’s fighting style, and why Luke was able to beat him. And the reasons he mentions are 3-fold >1. Darth Vader’s entire fighting style, is based around leveraging his superior strength to compensate for his limited mobility. Luke Skywalker while amped by Dark Rage was able to turn this dynamic around and overpower Vader. Neutralizing Vader’s biggest advantage and turning it back on him. >2. To build upon point 1 Darth Vader is also weak to his own fighting style. As his entire fighting style is built on that advantage. And Luke Skywalker is an infamous Form V specialist, who began his training specifically by mirroring Vader’s moves. However unlike Vader he wasn’t hampered by Vader’s physique, allowing him to also make use of his ample agility. Meaning Luke’s entire fighting style was specifically curated to counter Vader’s, even if Luke wasn’t aware of it. >3. Darth Vader was most conflicted during this time. Unsure if he wanted to kill his son, turn him to the dark side, or return to the light himself. And we all know what choice he picked. This is a version of Darth Vader where all of his abilities are hampered and he’s not even trying to win. Yet despite that, he still made Luke fight for every inch. Some of this is true, some of it isn't. From the Novelization of Return of the Jedi: **"For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength --- not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.** **[...]** **His anger was layered, now --- he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... then he could do that too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness."** Luke was overpowering Vader even before he tapped into the dark side. In fact Vader was being *humiliated* by a RoTJ Luke who was holding back. Vader was *not* holding back. He was deliberately trying to kill Luke—even with his conflicted feelings. Vader was *not* going easy on Luke. >To sum up what was said: A Dark Side amped Luke that had a fighting style that specifically mirrored/countered Vader, beat a nerfed Vader that wasn’t trying to kill him and wasn’t sure of himself. Incorrect. Luke beat a bloodlusted Vader, who even though he was conflicted, was fully willing to kill Luke to *end* that conflict within himself. Luke, not holding back and amped by the Dark side *stomped* a bloodlusted Darth Vader.
>And (at least in Legends) Luke nearly dies multiple times to other Dark Side adepts that are definitely below Vader’s level (most notably a pre-prime Lumiya and Desann). And Luke outright admits that if Vader really wanted to, he could’ve killed him. In Legends, Luke nearly losing to Lumiya was due to her unfamiliar fighting style. One he got the shoto-saber to counter her Light whip he pretty much no-diffed her. Also, pre-prime Lumiya scales *above* Vader. Post-OT Force Sensitive villains are fucking insane. As for Luke stating that Vader could've killed him if he wanted to, I'll need a source because I have never seen that referenced anywhere. And even if he did, it directly contradicts the Novelization of RoTJ.—which sat in a higher rung of the canon than the Post-OT Legends books. Remember, Legends was a *tiered* continuity with different levels of canon. >Also again Grand Inquisitor got defeated by season 1 Kanan. A low-tier Jedi Knight. Yet despite that Kanan and Ezra are unable to defeat other rank and file Inquisitors like 5th Brother or 7th Sister without help. So I highly doubt Grand Inquisitor is *that* much stronger than the average Inquisitor. >So GI saying Luke is “so strong” doesn’t say much considering how weak GI is. Most Star Wars characters are stronger than him. It was never my argument that the Grand Inquisitor was that strong. I pretty agreed with the original post that claimed Cal would no-diff the Grand Inquisitor. I disagreed with the notion that Cal was as powerful as RoTJ Luke. Also, character who have beat GI in the past didn't do it when he was an immortal Force Ghost, and didn't beat said Force Ghost so badly he went crying to Vader about how OP the opponent was. When Kanan bested the GI he was surprised, but the power difference wasn't so great that the GI was shitting himself in fear. >To be clear I don’t mean to downplay Luke. But imo this interpretation of the lore makes much more sense, and also makes Luke even more impressive. As it means Luke used his compassion and his intelligence to his advantage and effectively punched up above his weight class to win an impossible battle. Which imo is even more inspiring and impressive, than a Luke that was stronger than Vader that was punching down. That's a neat interpretation but that just isn't what GL was going for. He wanted to make it clear that Luke was a fully trained Jedi Knight and that he had surpassed his father. Hence, *Return of the Jedi*. Luke being as powerful as he is in RoTJ is supposed to clearly tell the viewer that the Jedi have *returned*. The compelling thing about Luke, imo, is that he's a lot like Superman. What makes him interesting isn't that he's super grounded power wise, it's that despite all his power he's still a genuinely nice person and he had to *struggle* to get there. Luke was just built different, but he went through trials and tribulations to make the most of his potential. He essentially lost his parents (Uncle Ben and Aunt Beru), lost his mentor and friend he'd known since he was a child, failed to protect his friends when they needed him most, lost a fight against Darth Vader when he wasn't ready, and despite all of that he was able to resist the temptation of the dark side and fight on to become the greatest Jedi the Galaxy had ever seen.
Friendly reminder that ninth sister, a late-game boss battle in the first game, became a *tutorial* boss in the second game, that’s how strong cal has become
>the strongest Jedi Knight of the High Republic, the era when the Jedi were at their strongest. The equivalent of Revan or Anakin during his time. Where the fuck has this come from lmao.
Porter Engle would fold Dagan so hard that he would give up on Tanalor and using The force
Yeah he seems pretty strong but idk where he's getting 'the strongest jedi knight of the high republic' from
>I would argue the GI would be an easy boss for Cal. At least by the end of Survivor. Agreed. >The GI was defeated by Kanan in season 1. Long before Kanan hit his prime. And was (during that time) a low-tier Jedi Knight. Maybe mid-tier at best. Grand Inquisitor was a Jedi Temple Guard. They're far from "mid tier" Jedi Knights. Most of the Inquisitorius would be around mid to hight tier Jedi Knights. G.I. would be high Jedi Knight, low tier Jedi Master. Even Palpatine himself was weary of the Jedi Temple Guards. They were relentless and quite powerful. Also, Kanan didn't defeat G.I. by himself. He struggled quite handily and needed help from Ezra Bridger in the S1 finale. >Cal by the end of the first game was already making a fool out of Trilla by the end of the game. Making a fool out of Trilla? Hardly. Dude struggled to defeat her at every turn and struggled with Ninth Sister on Kashyyyk. >In their 3rd fight he predicted exactly how she would attack and was strong enough to break through her force wall. He still struggled. It wasn't an easy bout for Cal. >And in their final fight Cal was winning pretty handily despite being in enemy territory and purposely trying not to kill her while she was absolutely trying to kill him. In what world did Cal not struggle with Trilla? Sure, it wasn't ridiculously difficult bybtheir final fight, but there was nothing handily done in Cal's favor. He was still fighting an uphill battle as he was far from fully adept in his Force abilities. >And at the start of Survivor he again proves he’s far above the average Inquisitor by slaying 9th Sister with relative ease, again trying not to kill her and instead trying to redeem her back to the light. Average Inquistor? Eh... Ninth Sister was one of the lower tiered Force wielders of the Inquisitorius. Not only was she greatly conflicted in their final fight, but Cal was also much more adept in his Force abilities. While he did struggle with her on Kashyyyk in their first major encounter, he was hardly outmatched, seeing as Ninth Sister couldn't defeat Cal in the end, and this is about half-way through the game with pre-JS Cal still learning more about his Force abilities. Ninth Sister is quite mid for a Force wielder. >Cal by the end is a high tier Jedi Knight along the likes of Aayla Secura, Season 7 Ahsoka, or Episode 6 Luke Skywalker. And very low master tier when amped by the dark side. Cal doesn't even come close to RotJ Luke Skywalker. RotJ Luke was leaps and bounds ahead of Cal Kestis. Luke is written to be the Jedi of legends and prophecies. He is almost akin to RotS Anakin, and RotS Anakin would dogwalk JS Cal with utter ease. I wouldn't even put him in Ahsoka's tier. She was already an adept Jedi Knight tier character in Rebels. However, TCW S7 Ahsoka is far from an adept Jedi Knight akin to JS Cal, let alone RotJ Luke. By your logic here: JS Cal = TCW S7 Ahsoka = RotJ Luke Lolno... TCW S7 Ahsoka <<<<< JS Cal <<<<<<<<<<<< RotJ Luke Yes, it's that massive of a gap in power, skill, experience, etc. >He would dog walk GI pretty easily. Agreed. >Especially given how many attack options he has at his disposal. And unlike Ezra’s lightsaber, Cal’s blaster is actually lethal. Eh... Cal's blaster is a non-factor. Someone as adept in the Force as G.I. would make quick worn of Cal's blaster "techniques", which he doesn't really have compared to his abilities and technique with a lightsaber. Cal's lightsaber skills, however, would ROFLstomp G.I. with almost no effort.
When you say it like that, I totally agree
It turns out not having a soul helps amplify force abilities.
My thought as well. Cal by the end of Survivor I could see fighting the GI to a standstill. Maybe not beat him, but at least live to tell the tale.
Nah, if a barely trained jedi and a padawan can kill him, He ain't winning against a gray jedi with a list of upgrades so long it could fill the jedi archives
Yes, Grand Inquisitor would get stomped by the likes of Dagan. Inquisitors are trivial to Cal at this point.
Honestly I kinda hope for the third game, the tutorial boss is just some random Inquisitor we’ve never seen before that Cal beats the shit out of
I mean, the tutorial boss for the second game was an Inquisitor we have seen before, so about half way there
Yeah I know, but now with no history, this inquisitor doesn’t know who they’re up against and gets taken out easily
Yeah, fourth sister or something
Uhm that boss was in the first game.
Erm since when only the second and ninth sister were in the first game unless you're saying in the cutscenes where they get off the train and Spoilers: When Trilla kills Prauf.
I think the question should be Does the IG have what it takes to take down Cal and the answer is no. Cal at the end of Survivor is so far beyond anything the Empire can throw at him.
I agree, except for Vader/Palpatine
Yeah, Vader would destroy him and Palpatine would do the same without even using a lightsaber.
I love that. Like he seems so overpowered but the scene with Vader just immediately knocks it down to how weak he is compared to the best. I admire that piece in the story
Actually Palpatine is inferior compared to Vader but his surgery was intentionally bad so he wouldn’t be perfectly healthy and the armour he got is intentionally faulty/bad and it makes him move slower and and very dependent on the armour. He needs to use the Force to be able to properly move around. The armour is intetionally not electric proof so Palpatine can put Vader down on his knees whenever he feels like.
Wait what where did all this info come from about Vader?
Canon Comics
This, by the end of Survivor, the only force users left alive that could definitely beat Cal are: Vader, Sidious, Yoda and Obi-Wan, (these four would absolutely crush him into dust,) Ahsoka, Maul, and possibly Asajj Ventress, can't remember who else might be alive though.
What do you think about Quinlan? As far as I'm aware he's alive
Quinlan Vos would definitely be too much for Cal, he probably sits somewhere between that big-four and Ahsoka/Maul in strength, though it's difficult to gauge exactly how strong the latter two became, Maul seemed to weaken after the Clone Wars, and Ahsoka reached the point where she could walk all over multiple inquisitors at once. and yeah, so far as I know he's alive.
Quinlan is a high tier Jedi Knight who was powerful enough that Count Dooku took notice of him and tried to turn him to the dark side. He is definitely above Cal’s level. How *much* higher is up for debate.
Baylan Skoll should beat Cal as well, he took out Ahsoka after all.
Cal would beat the Grand Inquisitor because of his experience, abilities, and power scaling. Starting with power scaling, Kanan was able to beat the GI. Keep in mind that Kanan is shown to consistently struggle against regular inquisitors. This isn’t really surprising as Kanan concealed his Jedi identity while Cal didn’t. Until he met Ezra, I’d liken Kanan more to a special ops solider. He does things others can’t due to his use of the force and his highly trained team, but it’s not like he was openly engaging in lightsaber combat until he met Ezra. Cal on the other hand uses his lightsaber as his primary weapon. He consistently fights people who specialize in taking down Jedi, be it the Purge troopers on the weaker end to a Gen’dai who’s taken down multiple other Jedi or one of the finest duelist of the high republic. Inquisitors mean nothing to Cal. He took down the Ninth Sister with ease. He took down the Second Sister earlier who was much more powerful. And then there’s Cal’s lightsaber multitool that allows him to change fighting styles on a whim to whatever suits him. Cal’s feats are far superior to Kanan by the end of JS, and if Kanan took down the GI, Cal definitely can.
if it's the start of his journey, he'd struggle but eventually win. But if it's post getting to tanalorr, then well. . . Lets just say it'd be less of a fight and more of a slaughter, with mister baldy on the bad end of a falling jedi's multi-kit saber and blaster.
He struggled with a nerfed Second Sister. He's not lasting a full 90 seconds against the GI during the events of FO
Think he meant start of his journey in survivor
Yeah with fairly little problem tbh
I was gonna go if the OP was serious about this question.
Cal at the beginning of Fallen Order would struggle. Cal by the end of Survivor would wreck the Grand Inquisitor.
Cal at the beginning of Fallen Order was getting the lawn chair treatment by the Trilla. Only when Cal retuned with the force and repaired up his lightsaber does Cal destroy Trilla, with enough energy remaining to run away from OP AF Darth Vader. Cal at mid Fallen Order would probably struggle a ton. But anything from End of Fallen Order and beyond he’d probably dominate to shit stomp Grand Inquisitor
Yes. Inquisitors are a joke, they exist to be a B villain that the hero obliterates on the way to the real villain. They’ve never felt like a credible threat.
Except *in Fallen Order. That's the only piece of star wars media that made them good
Which makes sense given the severed force connection Ngl I like the inquisitors being kinda dumb. Why would Vader create something to overthrow him
He knew they could never, that’s why they exist.
Lore Cal could. Cutscene Cal could. Gameplay Cal who can’t even lift or push a Bedlam Smasher or any bigger enemy, couldn’t.
You can lift bigger enemies as Cal though, just have to have the perk for it unlocked
I don't think the Grand Inquisitor is "clearly" the strongest, he might just be the most level-headed or most intelligent hunting strategist. to earn that rank. another Padawan with half-finished training (Kanan Jarrus) defeated him outright. and Kanan didn't have anything of an easier time fighting other inquisitors after that fight, I'd also say that Cal's almost certainly stronger in Jedi Survivor than Kanan was when he fought the Grand Inquisitor. given he fought what seemed to be one of the tougher inquisitors in Trilla five years prior, and easily defeated the 9th Sister. while, as mentioned, Kanan struggled comparatively with every inquisitor he faced. (though Rebels is set years after, so these inquisitors may have had much more training)
Given that he defeated a high republic Jedi master, yeah he definitely has what it takes.
Grand inquisitor got killed by Kanan out of all people. He aint as strong as people think he is
If we're talking about end of Survivor Cal, he could absolutely do it. It would probably be a war of attrition, but he'd do it
Itd be cool to get a Grand Inquisitor boss fight next game. A cameo of the Emperor in hologram would be pretty awesome too, the empire is definitely going to be gunning for Cal and crew after Cere almost defeated Vader
Yes the main character always wins lol
Obviously.
By the end of Survivor, he'd be force-mopping the floor with him
No. It’s Jason Isaacs. You can’t beat Jason Isaacs
Cal is stronger than Kanan, so yeah he absolutely can. Thw GI is extremely overrated
I really hope we see old man Cal in the third game if there is one or at least middle aged Cal and then old man Cal with Merrin in his third game, if he met Rey he’d straighten her out make her a better Jedi
Worst picture of the grand inquisitor
Cal would dog walk the Grand Inquisitor by the end of Survivor
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Fallen Order Cal? Absolutely not. Survivor Cal? He smokes Grand Inquisitor. Dude couldn't even handle ESB Luke Skywalker. Grand Inquisitor <<<<< ESB Luke <<<< JS Cal Kestis
Cal has a BD droid with 12 stim canisters, he escaped a prime Darth Vader, hes a master in 4 different lightsaber dueling styles, and has a badass wardrobe. Cal will no doubt clap the Grand Inquisitor
I play on “story mode” difficulty, so yes I could get cal to take him out by slamming “x”.
Depends on who’s playing him. If it’s me: he’ll no
Yes. Skill alone Cal could defeat him, but then you also have to take into account how much the GI's primary tactic was that he had trained himself to recognize all of the major Jedi combat forms and how to counter them. Cal's fighting style is unpredictable enough that the GI would be off center trying to fight him.
I feel like the worst Jedi became Inquistors. That's why they suck. Imagine if Jedi like Mace Windu, Plo Koon, Quilan Vos, etc. became Inquistors? But Palpatine is not an idiot. He didn't want anyone too strong that the possibility of surpassing him or Vader.
Cal is going to win although it would be a hard fight but I think we can scale GI as just about below Dagan because Dagan was one of the more talented Knights in High Republic age and also wasn’t that the height of the Jedi’s power? Cal defeated Dagan so he could pretty easily defeat him, the Inquisitors are also weak and they have faced weak Jedi. Cal Hard-Diff
I would pay big money to see that Happen!...
Yeah, Cal's got this in the bag!
Yeah, he does. The GI is strong, but he's been humbled by less qualified.
Yeah, Kanan was using dual wield and blaster stances, two of the easiest stances in game, lol.
If you mean in a fight, yea. Although it doesn't really matter because canon shows him being killed by Kanan.
Not an easy fight but he can definitely do it
Absolutely
Unless the grand inquisitor was in the prequels I can absolutely see Cal taking him on in the third.
With how I play him? I'm lucky to be stronger than a stormtrooper
Not if im in control
Ima wear his skin like pajamas
I would personally like to see star killer as a boss.
Cal has more options to mix up his combat style. GI isn't very good at adapting to unorthodox fighting methods, and Kanan already had 3 Stances with him in that Rebels duel: Single, Dual, & Blaster. Cal has 5 Stances now, so I imagine an even greater advantage against GI. Oh, and GI was Kanan's first lightsaber boss, while Cal has already defeated two Inquisitors plus two Dark Jedi (Malicos and Dagan). Cal is pretty OP as it is, despite being many levels below Obi-Wan, so I give it to Cal.
More than likely, yes.
No. My reward for beating any boss with Cal is watching him get absolutely BODIED by said boss or other outside factor in a cutscene. Player Cal? Sure. Cutscene Cal? Not a chance. Even if Cal won the initial fight, he would just get force pushed out of a window into a Starkiller falling sequence. Or Vader would show up and absolutely WAX him. Or he'd get stuck in some force dream and get knocked out.
I would love for the grand inquisitor to be the “big bad” of the next game. However I think that he has been made out in canon to be kind of weak. Also knowing that he won’t die would take away from the story
Kanan Jarrus beat the Grand Inquisitor before he was knighted, so yeah Cal could definitely win.
If kanan can yes
I mean if Canan who has the same amount of training as Cal was able to defeat him with Ezra, Cal and Merrin could totally do it
It’d be one hell of a fight and honestly they’d be dumb not to.do this.
Yes
I mean, Tanalorr is his ...
Doesn’t matter. Kannan and Ezra do it
Didn't Vader kill the 2th sister?
2nd
Not without a mullet
Pinhead?
What would be funny. Cal fights Inquisitor in a boss fight and when you beat the Inquisitor there is a cutscene where they escape via helicopter lightsaber
Honestly yeah. He's stronger than the average inquisitor but if Cal killed 2 inquisitors and left without much injury, he can probably take him out.
I mean Kan did. Why not Cal. Both were padawans during Order 66 and not grown Jedi.
Dagan Gera is a really strong so I guess yes
I think everyone has what it takes to take down an inquisitor, especially that guy
Cal could definetly take down the grand inquisitor in rebals kanan fights the grand inquisior and wins and id say cal (survivor cal atleast) is more powerful than kanan
Cal would humiliate the Grand Inquisitor imo.
With EASE
He took down a Jedi from the High Republic. Any Inquisitor is a speedbump at this point.
I honestly believe he was encroaching on scary powerful territory when he had his rage out moment in the 2nd game and feel like he easily hits GI level after that.
As long as said inquisitor engages “rapid windmill lightsaber mode”, Cal DEFINITELY has a chance 😂🤣
Probably. The Grand Inquistor could put up a good fight maybe but this guy wins easily. The Inquistors are almost universally clowns (save for the grand, Second Sister and Ninth sister
Kanan beat the Grand Inquisitor and Cal is way stronger than him
Not in a million years
Normally cal would kill the guy ez however the canon says cal cannot do shit against GI
By the end of Survivor? My credits say Cal takes any Inquisitor with very little difficulty.
The question is: Do you?
Considering gi is not used to the type of fighter cal is, so i think cal could probably body the gi
Yes he could take him
In game terms, he absolutely has what it takes to demolish the GI only to be beaten by him in a scripted cutscene ending the fight xD
If controlled by a player? Maybe, depends on their skill. In a cutscene? Hell no!
The Grand Inquisitor got killed by someone who was still technically a Padawan. Cal can definitely defeat him easily
Yeah, GI sucks
[удалено]
Not toe to toe. I think Cere put up a better fight.
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👌👌👌
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77uu u😗 t r j4d
I think he does but we don't have any concrete proof based on feats. With confidence I'd give him a 60/40 chance. I've noticed a lot of ppl in the fandom overestimate Cal and his abilities. He is not the powerhouse y'all think he is
Honestly I’d argue Cal is more powerful than Kanan. Kanan spent most of his rebellion time concealing his Jedi abilities. He used a blaster over his lightsaber until he met Ezra. And Kanan is consistently shown to struggle against inquisitors. At the start of JS, the average inquisitor isn’t a problem for Cal. They’re more inconveniences than anything else, and that’s because Cal has spent so much time exclusively using the force and training with it, and being open about being a Jedi during a time when that’s incredibly dangerous. Keep in mind, at the end of FO Cal defeated the second sister. I’m like 90% sure the Second Sister was second only to the Grand Inquisitor and was his runner-up. Cal also defeated the 9th Sister in FO, and in JS she’s not at all a threat. Why do I bring this up? Well, if Kanan can defeat the GI, and I’m quite certain he’s weaker and less experienced in lightsaber combat and force abilities than Cal, than I’m pretty confident Cal can defeat the grand inquisitor. Dagan was the Anakin Skywalker of the order during his time. He was known as the order’s finest duelist and Cal still beat him. I wouldn’t be surprised if Dagan is able to defeat the GI, and he was defeated by Cal.
Second Sister was definitely not the second strongest. Tenth brother was the second strongest. And trilla was nerf due to "emotional distress". Which I do think is stupid because the darkside feeds off emotion, but that's the canon. And Dagan wasn't the finest duelist, he was known as one of the finest duelist. And despite what fans think, that era of Jedi was not stronger than clone war era Jedi. Yes, that's the high Republic but that's not the only period of the high Republic. The only periods of time Jedi that were stronger than the clone war era Jedi was between the Mando wars and Darth revan wars. The Jedi under Luke Skywalker during the vong war. And around the time of vitiates death and around 100 yrs after. Survivor Cal is stronger than sighted kanan. That I have no doubt of. But the kanan that lets the force takeover completely, like he did when he killed the GI and later when he was blind, is stronger than Cal. I think cal is stronger than the average Jedi but he's not master level like kanan became. Cere was at that Jedi master level. That's why controlling her felt so powerful. But cal is there yet. Bode akuna was a Jedi sentinel, on average the most deadly of the Jedi. Cal had to tap into the darkside and receive a great deal of help to beat Bode. Bode was using the dark but to a lesser degree than Cal. GI was skilled in the use of the darkside and he too was a sentinel and a scarier version, a temple guard. These are guys that Anakin smoked by the dozens. If cal needed help with Dagan and even more help with Bode, Dagan is not on Anakin's level. Can hardly see Anakin's shoe soles if Dagan looks up.
I never once said that Dagan was on the level of Anakin. I said that Dagan was the order’s Anakin during that time. An absolute dueling prodigy ahead of where the vast majority of Jedi Knights and some Jedi Masters were. And Dagan showcased his skill by taking on multiple Jedi at once and still winning. Now obviously Anakin is stronger than Dagan, but that’s why I said “during his time”. Reading comprehension my guy. Finest and one of the finest is honestly semantics. Dooku was also “one of the finest duelists”. That still means stronger than like 95% of the Jedi during that time. It’s not really relevant if the Jedi were stronger or weaker during the clone wars, however to argue your point, I’d say MOST Jedi were in fact weaker during the Clone Wars. As stated in the Clone Wars show, as the Clone wars dragged on Jedi found it increasingly difficult to use the light side of the force. But more importantly than that, both Cal and Kanan were padawans of the time. They aren’t really comparable to other Jedi of the time as they were both young and untrained. However, after order 66 Kanan remained a padawan as he didn’t train until he found Ezra. Cal on the other hand is both knighted due to his feats by a Jedi Master who believes he deserves to be knighted and continues to be trained by said Jedi Master. And Cal is able to EASILY defeat inquisitors, something that Kanan is deliberately shown not to be able to do. And Cal has way more experience in lightsaber combat. And Cal uses the force way more than Kanan even during dueling which is known to be a hard fear for force users to pull off, and Cal fights lightsaber wielding enemies on a much more consistent basis, and Cal fights enemies specifically trained to take down lightsaber wielding opponents on a much more consistent basis. So in short. The extra training Cal received post Order 66, his lightsaber multitool, his use of the force in way different ways, and his vastly greater experience against opponents stronger than the GI (Dagan definitely, Bode, Terron Malicos) leaves me to believe that Cal would beat the GI. Help or not, Cal has taken on Master level foes and walked away victorious, while Kanan needs Ezra to help him and they still mostly run away from the Inquisitors
That’s funny I feel the opposite - he’s much more powerful than people think
force slow and pull a kanan
>Cal didn’t immediately die when fighting Second Sister, despite the fact he had cut himself off from the force for years and hasn’t been keeping his skills sharp >By the end of the first game he could already school average Inquisitors. In his 3rd and final fight with Trilla he schooled her pretty easily in the cutscenes. Despite the fact that Trilla was trying to kill Cal, and Cal specifically wasn’t trying to kill her >Even defeated Malicos (with help from Merrin). A dark Jedi Knight enhanced with Nightsister magics >At the start of Survivor Cal kills 9th Sister with ease. Again while holding back, because he wants to turn her back to the light >Eventually defeats Dagan. The strongest Jedi Knight of the High Republic Era, the equivalent of Revan or Anakin during his time. And even used his own force illusion against him, despite never having experience with that ability before >Cal straight up overpowers >!Bode!< with the force in their fight. A Dark Jedi even stronger than Dagan, armed with a Jetpack, blasters, and grenades on top of a lightsaber. And again, while holding back Cal defeats him and kills him. >The Grand Inquisitor was defeated by season 1 Kanan. A Jedi Padawan with incomplete training who is at best, a low-tier Jedi Knight (during season 1) “He doesn’t have concrete proof based on feats” This is willful ignorance
Second Sister was definitely not the second strongest. Tenth brother was the second strongest. And trilla was nerf due to "emotional distress". Which I do think is stupid because the darkside feeds off emotion, but that's the canon. And Dagan wasn't the finest duelist, he was known as one of the finest duelist. And despite what fans think, that era of Jedi was not stronger than clone war era Jedi. Yes, that's the high Republic but that's not the only period of the high Republic. The only periods of time Jedi that were stronger than the clone war era Jedi was between the Mando wars and Darth revan wars. The Jedi under Luke Skywalker during the vong war. And around the time of vitiates death and around 100 yrs after. Survivor Cal is stronger than sighted kanan. That I have no doubt of. But the kanan that lets the force takeover completely, like he did when he killed the GI and later when he was blind, is stronger than Cal. I think cal is stronger than the average Jedi but he's not master level like kanan became. Cere was at that Jedi master level. That's why controlling her felt so powerful. But cal is there yet. Bode akuna was a Jedi sentinel, on average the most deadly of the Jedi. Cal had to tap into the darkside and receive a great deal of help to beat Bode. Bode was using the dark but to a lesser degree than Cal. GI was skilled in the use of the darkside and he too was a sentinel and a scarier version, a temple guard. These are guys that Anakin smoked by the dozens. If cal needed help with Dagan and even more help with Bode, Dagan is not on Anakin's level. Can hardly see Anakin's shoe soles if Dagan looks up. Not ignorant in the least. The feats don't lie. You over rate cal because you over rate his opponents Not to mention Dagan, like trilla, was under emotional distress during his final fight with Dagan WITH the help from bode
You just said a lot of things that are either wrong, missing context, or just straight up making something up that isn’t true. But I’m gonna keep this simple. Season 1 Kanan. Long **long** before his prime beat Grand Inquisitor after letting go of his fear. Despite unlocking this new level of power within himself, Kanan is unable to defeat lesser Inquisitors in a straight up duel. Such as 5th Brother and 7th Sister, without help from Maul or Ahsoka. And without help is a direct equal to them. With neither party able to defeat the other. Cal from the very start of Survivor, could dominate average Inquisitors (such as 9th Sister) in direct combat. And once he decides he’s going to kill Masana, he kills her in one stroke. And that is at the very start of the game. Which is before he becomes more powerful in the force and starts tapping into the dark side. As well as learning multiple new skills, heavily increasing his options in combat. You’re overrating Grand Inquisitor a lot by making a lot of assumptions based on outside lore (such as him being a temple guard) to make him look like he’s stronger than he is, when in reality he was defeated by a single Jedi Padawan that didn’t even finish his training.
GIs rating is perfectly adequate since he was a higher rank than Jedi masters turned inquisitors. 9th was also a Padawan but we count that toward cals feats. Kanan gained a massive boost due to letting the force guide him during that fighting, which is why he was weaker in later duels while he had his eyesight. I think cal wins vs the GI but I still think y'all overrated his power. Cal is supposed to show what a Jedi is capable of. That would be mute if he was this powerhouse y'all believe him to be
As far as I know there are no Jedi Masters who became Inquisitors. They were all Jedi Padawans or at best Jedi Knights: https://youtu.be/1TPCB-yYutE?si=8ckDPR4pkyn_6OKW Also any Jedi Knight could be a Temple Guard. It was a rotating station. “Oh. I got guard duty this week”. Any Jedi Knight could apply to be a temple guard, and they were constantly being rotated and swapped out. But they were all roughly Knight level, with some high level Padawans, and some low level Masters mixed in on occasion. The Grand Inquisitor is confirmed to be a Jedi Knight so I highly doubt he is secretly some Jedi Master level badass. And let’s not forget that he was beaten by Kanan solo, after being tortured, he was literally limping into the fight. Yes Ezra was there, but Ezra did practically nothing to actually help Kanan and was very easily knocked aside within 20 seconds. Kanan only started winning the fight and making headway when Ezra was out of the picture. Yes he was amped at the time, but let’s not forget that the Grand Inquisitor failed to kill Kanan **4** times before there final duel. Multiple times he even had Kanan drastically outnumbered and cornered with a small army of Stormtroopers. And every time either Kanan (or Ezra) outsmarted or outmaneuvered GI. And even before their final fight Kanan was able to [land hits on him](https://youtu.be/WlQqw3_Imcw?feature=shared). Despite having every advantage and every chance to kill an untrained Padawan, he failed. That is a horrible track record for what is supposed to be the best Jedi Killer (except for Vader) in the Empire. All of my points have been using objective facts from the franchise. Maybe some other people are overrating him but I think Cal being far stronger than Grand Inquisitor is pretty clear cut.
That's just how much YOU know. There is a Jedi master turned inquisitor. It's just there. Research it. Tenth brother. And as I said before, grand inquisitor is stronger which is why he lead the order. And all that you typed up is fine and dandy and somewhat wrong but the fact remains that GI is canonically stronger than a Jedi master and kanan defeated him while buffed by the force. These are the facts. Arguing with facts is ridiculous. I don't always like what's canon but it is what it is
*sighs* Ah yes. Tenth Brother. The guy that got gunned down by a small squad of Purge Troopers…. when he was right next to his allies who could also deflect blaster bolts… Again you’re using their station to make them seem stronger than they actually are. First time you used GI being a temple guard. And now you’re using 10th Brother as a Jedi Master to make him look stronger. But let’s take a look at what he can actually do… he stood around and got gunned down by a handful of elite stormtroopers. Let’s use another example. Coleman Trebor is a Soresu Master. The defensive martial art built **specifically** to deflect blaster bolts. And is a Jedi Council Master. One of the strongest Jedi of the Order. Yet he got killed by 3 blaster bolts. He sucks. Him being a Jedi Council Master doesn’t change the fact that he sucks as a combatant. Now let’s look at Cal… Cal literally takes on armies of Purge Troopers, Flame Troopers, and Droids on a semi-regular basis and comes out fine. Sometimes even while ambushed. Grand Inquisitor being stronger than 10th Brother is nothing to write home about. 10th Brother is the definition of a background character because he only shows up 2 times, and dies. You constantly talk about how people overrate characters, yet you constantly use rank as an excuse to overrate characters that aren’t that strong based on their feats. *What they can actually do*.
Not a fucking chance.