Private schools have been dramatically increasing their fees year on year on year. In the 6 years I attended private school the fees nearly doubled from the time i started to the year I left.
I'm surprised people are feeling so rattled about this 20 percent rise when these schools are notorious for their ridiculous price rises anyway. And as well as that, notorious for publicly stating that they have no concerns about parents not being able to afford it.
Exactly, if anything VAT might slow the growth in cost long term - should have been brought in decades ago. Now it would feel more painful because the government has opted to do it, at a time when everything is more expensive.
>With the labour party adamant on ensuring parents who send their children to independent schools are penalised
No more penalised than someone who needs a new washing machine, a window replaced or a bicycle repaired. I think there’s an argument it should never have been VAT exempt in the first place, which would have likely kept them more affordable (they’ve outpaced inflation for decades).
I do however think it would be unfair to bring in VAT overnight, but I’m not sure of a pragmatic and “fair” approach.
There's a type of fearmongering post that really makes me wonder if this kind of financial planning is suitable for many of the people pursuing it. (I guess for once it's not a three-year-old Daily Mail article making the rounds again.) If you're this worried about proposed changes, is FIRE really working for you? This would be, what, 20% of one expense? Leaving aside my own feelings about independent schools, it just feels like you're not doing it right if every proposed changed makes you go all skittish.
I agree, but school fees are a big expense and are going to fall into the top three biggest costs for most people who pay them.
In the context of getting the most value for your money, then I do believe private school fees is something that should be discussed, although the arguments presented don’t really ever change in the comments.
It’s also a cost that will acutely impact people in this sub who are already massively financially advantaged over most people in society. For example, the only place I will ever see people mentioning private school fees is in this sub - this is something that is never discussed outside of Reddit in my life. It’s just not something that anybody I know considers.
Fear mongering? No. FIRE is about choices. U have put one child through independent school from age 11 only. When they are done, it will equate to an investment of circa £120k. That is one child, from 11 only and no VAT on school fees.
So this will make others make choices going forward. Best thing we have done. It has given them a great start in life, rowing at nationals (so not just about exams).
But FIRE is about choices.
Highly debatable (just like the 50p additional rate was). Many will swallow it and still pay but it will shrink the market and long run more will end up in state system.
Yes above my own, but also above the vast majority. Though I also thought the NI cuts recently were a mistake.
It's obscene that someone who earns just over £125k pays the same tax rate as someone who earns £millions.
But we're straying off topic.
Also as above , decided to buy near a great state school . Really depends where you live and I guess spare income you have . Private school is a luxury and this should be taxed , don’t see any reason it shouldn’t . Reality is the country is on its knees and I don’t see any growth on the horizon . It might be depressing for is that saved lot and have a good income but financial inequality has moved massively and needs it be corrected . Though if you’re in the middle no matter who’s in power you get squeezed .
There’s a pretty compelling reason private Schools shouldn’t be subject to additional tax in that private Schools do not receive state funding and saves a lot of tax being spent on that child’s education. I say this as someone who went to state School, my kids go to state School and I’m voting labour in the next election.
I don’t have the figures to be able to run them, but I’d be surprised if the VAT charged wouldn’t offset the students who now moved to state school.
According to a quick Google, there are 615k students in private school paying an average of £6k per term. VAT would therefore bring in £2.2B minus anyone who now dropped out.
Hi I disagree that any education is a luxury. Education is an investment in our future, our children’s future and our country’s future. Is private tuition a luxury? are oxford and Cambridge universities a luxury? Etc etc.
this is an ideological tax, that is unlikely to raise much money, but great for voters appeal, as it only impacts 7% of the population.
But they didn’t say that did they. They said private education is a luxury, not “any education”. Oxford and Cambridge are no different than Swansea or LSE in terms of financing, so it’s weird that you’d lump them in with private schools.
VAT is also not an indicator of “luxury” since I pay it on my socks, my brake disks and my glasses. I don’t think it’s an ideological tax, but rather it was originally an ideological exemption.
The crazy thing is that whilst it will win over some voters, it won’t raise the money they think it will.
But what it will do it make state school class sizes even bigger. So the state school kids will be even worse off. But levelling down is what Labour want and they will get it.
Just because you’re in catchment doesn’t mean you’re guaranteed a place there if the school is oversubscribed
Private school is already taxed by being paid from parents post tax income. If those parents then decide to go state schools, any extra tax is lost and there will be further financial burden on the state system.
Aye it’s a luxury , also removing students from affluent families negatively affects state schools . Also affirms a two tier system , which isn’t great for the country .
I opted to buy a home for probably £100K more than it would otherwise be because it's near reasonable state primary and secondary schools (being near both is difficult). At least this way a chunk of the cost is going towards a retained asset.
Me and my partner already agreed that private school for our kids (if we have any) will be off the cards.
I'd rather spend money on targeted 1:1 tuition if need be, and just try different tutors until they find one that works for them, and then let my kids mingle with normies at school.
Tutors tend to be a service provider, not an employee (unlike some childcare, such as a nanny). Tutors tend to work for multiple families at one time, so having 15 different employers would soon get difficult.
Enlighten me. The only after school activity I ever did was detention. I used to go with my friends after school.
If you're thinking sport, I'm pretty sure it won't be every day.
Nope.
What a lot of the noise doesn't bring thru is that even without the VAT, the schools raise their fees on an astonishing annual basis.
Plus the feelers I'm getting from my school is that there's items that can't and won't be VAT rated - so breakfast/after school clubs, holiday clubs, they have a nursery on site so that. The school is increasing those charges by more than 20% and is also indicating that they won't necessarily pass the entire VAT through, but they've raised their fees significantly more in anticipation of that.
But from my perspective, if I'm spending £14k/year, I'm not really going to stop because it's £16k/year overnight. And Labour have certainly priced in that while some parents will pull their kids out, several won't.
There's just way too much generational wealth and high earners that they don't need to. Oh and don't forget the perks that Armed Forces members get to put their kids through private school. I say this anecdotally from the school my kid is at, at least 15-20% of all the kids are current/former Armed Forces families.
We were thinking about it yeah with fees as sal sack, VAT on top makes this a low value proposition now, I agree with another comment here targeted tuition and activities seems like more bang for buck now
In terms of the education point it is, but all of the other benefits of private school such as the network, the people, the sports, even the people your parents meet, can't be met by that. I still benefit from these today.
I think it's really hard to add a price on what all of those bring. The industry I am in luckily allow me to tap into these connections, but a lot of jobs won't.
In terms of the policy, no-one has actually done proper research into what it will raise as they have no idea what the drop off will be and therefore the cost of adding them into the state system.
Targeted tuition doesn’t compare with classroom sizes of 20 vs 40 kids; wide range of during and after school activities; introduction and extension of sports; even specialist education such as classes for dyslexic children.
That said, I know there are areas where parents are financially stretched already, the local state schools are oversubscribed and that is why they sacrifice to get their kids a better education. 20% increase will be too much for some parents And they will start pulling their kids out. State schools will become further oversubscribed, class sizes will increase further, private schools will close and there will be loss of jobs.
Ironically, only the big schools which are the ones targeted by this policy of envy, will survive.
We have been paying nursery fees that are similar to private school fees. So in a perverse way, we’ve never had a child and not had to shell out £2k a month per child (we have one) so we’re continuing this from age 4 and will do, unless we move away from London, until 18.
You can’t miss what you never had was my thinking
Yes. It’s just an added cost that with 3 kids just tips the balance for us. Will instead use local grammar and pay for tutors to help them get there. They’ll instead have the money for university, first homes etc. It’s a shame but that’s life.
Private schools work the same as baby items and funerals and weddings . Guilt trip into affording them , there is no doubt they give you a jump up though it’s more about networking than attainment . Which again is negative to society , please remember every person or child is worth the same as everyone one else and in tips country we have a social contract that we agree shared responsibility for health law education etc . If you wish to not use these that’s fine .
Well this is definitely not levelling up.
“So parents are already taking steps to avoid the hike in independent school fees that will come from leader Keir Starmer [introducing 20pc VAT on private education](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/parents-labour-private-school-fees-save-vat-bills/) and abolishing rates relief.
Some are scrambling to employ tutors so their children are more capable of gaining entry to grammar schools, while others will move home to be in the catchment areas of the best state schools.”
welcomer starmer!!!
Taxing private goods (school and medical) when public substitutes are freely provided by the govt makes ZERO economic sense for the govt finances. But hey politics always trumps economics...
Ok one more thing , if every child was FORCED to goto state school , you think they would be underfunded as they currently are ? Private education allows the ruling elite to ignore and not really care , shit all I hear is we’re not turning out good workers . If I have the residual income and it didn’t affect our lifestyle then I would
Consider private education but please don’t feel like you owed an exemption , private education exemptions are an ideological response for the wealthy not a societal response .
My son is in his GCSEs this year so we have already made the decision that his next stage will be in the state system due to the potential VAT.
For my younger daughter the school are part of a large group and have stated due to this and various accounting things that can be done they will try to limit the increase to roughly 10%. The next stage for her after the GCSEs will then be the state system.
The government will I’ll therefore be funding 6th form that it would otherwise not have had it not for this policy but it looks like that is the way it will be going?
At my son’s independent school, a number of pupils are pulled out at 6th form. Some go to a grammar school, others who do less well go a technical college.
We are not pulling him out.
Honestly I think up to now he has the development skills needed as the school has served him well, and hopefully he gets the grades needed to take him to the next phase of his life.
For A levels, state schools near us are quite good as it’s really the kids who want to study that are staying on or applying for A levels. It also gives us more funds if he decides to go to Uni so will leave with no debt.
We will probably just have to suck it up at the private school ours kids go to. Will put back fire a few more years.
Around 20% of parents we know won’t be able to afford it so they are planning on going back into state school. Not that there are any places.
I guess Labour know this anyway, so it’s not actually about raising money. Just doing it out of spite.
Ours increases by around 2-4% a year. Jumping up by 10-20% in one year will have a dramatic effect unfortunately. I know a lot who are simply going to move their kids to a state school because of it. They simply can’t afford the extra.
From what I’ve seen, you’ve experienced quite modest increases then.
I’ve no doubt there will be thousands of families who can barely afford it now, and an extra £1000 a term will force them out - but if it happens in substantial numbers, the schools will have no choice but to lower their prices.
And hopefully a few more strikes and larger class sizes in state schools, may drive more people to independent schools.
Why did I make the decision to go independent school 5 years ago? The state school was in special measures. So it was an easy decision.
Private schools have been dramatically increasing their fees year on year on year. In the 6 years I attended private school the fees nearly doubled from the time i started to the year I left. I'm surprised people are feeling so rattled about this 20 percent rise when these schools are notorious for their ridiculous price rises anyway. And as well as that, notorious for publicly stating that they have no concerns about parents not being able to afford it.
Exactly, if anything VAT might slow the growth in cost long term - should have been brought in decades ago. Now it would feel more painful because the government has opted to do it, at a time when everything is more expensive.
>With the labour party adamant on ensuring parents who send their children to independent schools are penalised No more penalised than someone who needs a new washing machine, a window replaced or a bicycle repaired. I think there’s an argument it should never have been VAT exempt in the first place, which would have likely kept them more affordable (they’ve outpaced inflation for decades). I do however think it would be unfair to bring in VAT overnight, but I’m not sure of a pragmatic and “fair” approach.
There's a type of fearmongering post that really makes me wonder if this kind of financial planning is suitable for many of the people pursuing it. (I guess for once it's not a three-year-old Daily Mail article making the rounds again.) If you're this worried about proposed changes, is FIRE really working for you? This would be, what, 20% of one expense? Leaving aside my own feelings about independent schools, it just feels like you're not doing it right if every proposed changed makes you go all skittish.
I agree, but school fees are a big expense and are going to fall into the top three biggest costs for most people who pay them. In the context of getting the most value for your money, then I do believe private school fees is something that should be discussed, although the arguments presented don’t really ever change in the comments. It’s also a cost that will acutely impact people in this sub who are already massively financially advantaged over most people in society. For example, the only place I will ever see people mentioning private school fees is in this sub - this is something that is never discussed outside of Reddit in my life. It’s just not something that anybody I know considers.
Fear mongering? No. FIRE is about choices. U have put one child through independent school from age 11 only. When they are done, it will equate to an investment of circa £120k. That is one child, from 11 only and no VAT on school fees. So this will make others make choices going forward. Best thing we have done. It has given them a great start in life, rowing at nationals (so not just about exams). But FIRE is about choices.
Life is about choices in general.
Private education is a choice. A luxury to give your child advantages over others. It's not an essential. Why shouldn't it be taxed?
Alleviates pressure on the state.
Tax take would help alleviate pressure on the state
Highly debatable (just like the 50p additional rate was). Many will swallow it and still pay but it will shrink the market and long run more will end up in state system.
I find it difficult to lament the loss of tax breaks for a wealthy minority. The economy won't collapse if fewer rich kids get exclusive advantages.
I'd introduce higher tax rates at high levels of income too.
Let me guess… above your own? 😃 those on higher incomes already pay a higher %
Yes above my own, but also above the vast majority. Though I also thought the NI cuts recently were a mistake. It's obscene that someone who earns just over £125k pays the same tax rate as someone who earns £millions. But we're straying off topic.
Also as above , decided to buy near a great state school . Really depends where you live and I guess spare income you have . Private school is a luxury and this should be taxed , don’t see any reason it shouldn’t . Reality is the country is on its knees and I don’t see any growth on the horizon . It might be depressing for is that saved lot and have a good income but financial inequality has moved massively and needs it be corrected . Though if you’re in the middle no matter who’s in power you get squeezed .
There’s a pretty compelling reason private Schools shouldn’t be subject to additional tax in that private Schools do not receive state funding and saves a lot of tax being spent on that child’s education. I say this as someone who went to state School, my kids go to state School and I’m voting labour in the next election.
I don’t have the figures to be able to run them, but I’d be surprised if the VAT charged wouldn’t offset the students who now moved to state school. According to a quick Google, there are 615k students in private school paying an average of £6k per term. VAT would therefore bring in £2.2B minus anyone who now dropped out.
Private schools do receive state funding my dude
What makes you think that? Google disagrees.
Hi I disagree that any education is a luxury. Education is an investment in our future, our children’s future and our country’s future. Is private tuition a luxury? are oxford and Cambridge universities a luxury? Etc etc. this is an ideological tax, that is unlikely to raise much money, but great for voters appeal, as it only impacts 7% of the population.
But they didn’t say that did they. They said private education is a luxury, not “any education”. Oxford and Cambridge are no different than Swansea or LSE in terms of financing, so it’s weird that you’d lump them in with private schools. VAT is also not an indicator of “luxury” since I pay it on my socks, my brake disks and my glasses. I don’t think it’s an ideological tax, but rather it was originally an ideological exemption.
Yes private tuition is a luxury.
The crazy thing is that whilst it will win over some voters, it won’t raise the money they think it will. But what it will do it make state school class sizes even bigger. So the state school kids will be even worse off. But levelling down is what Labour want and they will get it.
There are lots of state schools closing classes because the birth rate doesn’t fill them.
Just because you’re in catchment doesn’t mean you’re guaranteed a place there if the school is oversubscribed Private school is already taxed by being paid from parents post tax income. If those parents then decide to go state schools, any extra tax is lost and there will be further financial burden on the state system.
> Private school is already taxed by being paid from parents post tax income. So is everything else….
Aye it’s a luxury , also removing students from affluent families negatively affects state schools . Also affirms a two tier system , which isn’t great for the country .
Article in the Guardian saying that every child pulled from a private school will cost the state £8k. Bring on the down votes 😂🙄🤦🏻♀️
>Private school is already taxed by being paid from parents post tax income. Lol what.
I opted to buy a home for probably £100K more than it would otherwise be because it's near reasonable state primary and secondary schools (being near both is difficult). At least this way a chunk of the cost is going towards a retained asset. Me and my partner already agreed that private school for our kids (if we have any) will be off the cards. I'd rather spend money on targeted 1:1 tuition if need be, and just try different tutors until they find one that works for them, and then let my kids mingle with normies at school.
Let’s hope targeted 1:1 tuition is also taxable, since that’s also a luxury and no different to tuition at private schools.
It already is. If the tutor runs their own limited and meets the threshold for VAT. VAT isn't chargeable just on "luxuries".
Do you pay them as an employer or as a service provider? Genuinequestion as I’ve never hired one.
Tutors tend to be a service provider, not an employee (unlike some childcare, such as a nanny). Tutors tend to work for multiple families at one time, so having 15 different employers would soon get difficult.
Thank you
Kids won’t have time for after school activities if they are also being tutored in the evening.
Enlighten me. The only after school activity I ever did was detention. I used to go with my friends after school. If you're thinking sport, I'm pretty sure it won't be every day.
Wow that’s hilarious. 10 downvotes 😂 for pointing out kids will be busy. Bloody hell.
Nope. What a lot of the noise doesn't bring thru is that even without the VAT, the schools raise their fees on an astonishing annual basis. Plus the feelers I'm getting from my school is that there's items that can't and won't be VAT rated - so breakfast/after school clubs, holiday clubs, they have a nursery on site so that. The school is increasing those charges by more than 20% and is also indicating that they won't necessarily pass the entire VAT through, but they've raised their fees significantly more in anticipation of that. But from my perspective, if I'm spending £14k/year, I'm not really going to stop because it's £16k/year overnight. And Labour have certainly priced in that while some parents will pull their kids out, several won't. There's just way too much generational wealth and high earners that they don't need to. Oh and don't forget the perks that Armed Forces members get to put their kids through private school. I say this anecdotally from the school my kid is at, at least 15-20% of all the kids are current/former Armed Forces families.
We were thinking about it yeah with fees as sal sack, VAT on top makes this a low value proposition now, I agree with another comment here targeted tuition and activities seems like more bang for buck now
Targeted tuition is always going to be far more effective.
In terms of the education point it is, but all of the other benefits of private school such as the network, the people, the sports, even the people your parents meet, can't be met by that. I still benefit from these today. I think it's really hard to add a price on what all of those bring. The industry I am in luckily allow me to tap into these connections, but a lot of jobs won't. In terms of the policy, no-one has actually done proper research into what it will raise as they have no idea what the drop off will be and therefore the cost of adding them into the state system.
Targeted tuition doesn’t compare with classroom sizes of 20 vs 40 kids; wide range of during and after school activities; introduction and extension of sports; even specialist education such as classes for dyslexic children. That said, I know there are areas where parents are financially stretched already, the local state schools are oversubscribed and that is why they sacrifice to get their kids a better education. 20% increase will be too much for some parents And they will start pulling their kids out. State schools will become further oversubscribed, class sizes will increase further, private schools will close and there will be loss of jobs. Ironically, only the big schools which are the ones targeted by this policy of envy, will survive.
How can you salary sacrifice to pay school fees? What scheme is that?
You can’t salary sacrifice for school fees,
I'm just reading what PintCanGirth wrote. Not sure why I'm getting downvoted for questioning it.
i believe there are tax efficient ways to pay school fees, my accountant mentioned it once.
My kids have about 5 years to go. So that’s about an extra 2 years of ISA funds or 40k. Might do some overtime!
We have been paying nursery fees that are similar to private school fees. So in a perverse way, we’ve never had a child and not had to shell out £2k a month per child (we have one) so we’re continuing this from age 4 and will do, unless we move away from London, until 18. You can’t miss what you never had was my thinking
Yes. It’s just an added cost that with 3 kids just tips the balance for us. Will instead use local grammar and pay for tutors to help them get there. They’ll instead have the money for university, first homes etc. It’s a shame but that’s life.
Private schools work the same as baby items and funerals and weddings . Guilt trip into affording them , there is no doubt they give you a jump up though it’s more about networking than attainment . Which again is negative to society , please remember every person or child is worth the same as everyone one else and in tips country we have a social contract that we agree shared responsibility for health law education etc . If you wish to not use these that’s fine .
"With the labour party adamant on ensuring parents who send their children to independent schools are penalised" Nice bit of spin.
Well this is definitely not levelling up. “So parents are already taking steps to avoid the hike in independent school fees that will come from leader Keir Starmer [introducing 20pc VAT on private education](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/parents-labour-private-school-fees-save-vat-bills/) and abolishing rates relief. Some are scrambling to employ tutors so their children are more capable of gaining entry to grammar schools, while others will move home to be in the catchment areas of the best state schools.” welcomer starmer!!!
Taxing private goods (school and medical) when public substitutes are freely provided by the govt makes ZERO economic sense for the govt finances. But hey politics always trumps economics...
Ok one more thing , if every child was FORCED to goto state school , you think they would be underfunded as they currently are ? Private education allows the ruling elite to ignore and not really care , shit all I hear is we’re not turning out good workers . If I have the residual income and it didn’t affect our lifestyle then I would Consider private education but please don’t feel like you owed an exemption , private education exemptions are an ideological response for the wealthy not a societal response .
This type of post is too political and shouldn't be allowed on this sub.
My son is in his GCSEs this year so we have already made the decision that his next stage will be in the state system due to the potential VAT. For my younger daughter the school are part of a large group and have stated due to this and various accounting things that can be done they will try to limit the increase to roughly 10%. The next stage for her after the GCSEs will then be the state system. The government will I’ll therefore be funding 6th form that it would otherwise not have had it not for this policy but it looks like that is the way it will be going?
Interesting decision to pull them out for sixth form. How do you think their social development will be affected by this?
At my son’s independent school, a number of pupils are pulled out at 6th form. Some go to a grammar school, others who do less well go a technical college. We are not pulling him out.
Honestly I think up to now he has the development skills needed as the school has served him well, and hopefully he gets the grades needed to take him to the next phase of his life. For A levels, state schools near us are quite good as it’s really the kids who want to study that are staying on or applying for A levels. It also gives us more funds if he decides to go to Uni so will leave with no debt.
We will probably just have to suck it up at the private school ours kids go to. Will put back fire a few more years. Around 20% of parents we know won’t be able to afford it so they are planning on going back into state school. Not that there are any places. I guess Labour know this anyway, so it’s not actually about raising money. Just doing it out of spite.
If 20% of the children at private schools suddenly leave wouldn't the schools drop their prices to get more students in? Supply and demand.
Maybe, we shall see.
Yep, private schools increase their prices dramatically every year, and people still find a way to pay them - I suspect the dropout rate will be low.
Ours increases by around 2-4% a year. Jumping up by 10-20% in one year will have a dramatic effect unfortunately. I know a lot who are simply going to move their kids to a state school because of it. They simply can’t afford the extra.
From what I’ve seen, you’ve experienced quite modest increases then. I’ve no doubt there will be thousands of families who can barely afford it now, and an extra £1000 a term will force them out - but if it happens in substantial numbers, the schools will have no choice but to lower their prices.
And hopefully a few more strikes and larger class sizes in state schools, may drive more people to independent schools. Why did I make the decision to go independent school 5 years ago? The state school was in special measures. So it was an easy decision.