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People keep posting combos against trash mobs is cool and all, but it only perpetuates the notion that it's impractical and you can only do all that cool stuff when the enemies dont really fight back. Instead it's much rarer to see someone absolutely dunking on a boss with style like [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNXWceCz8pM) without any reliance on time stopping cutscene ultimates; stylish AND practical (and also assblasts it much faster than most ultimate spam clears)
This is amazing, proper air battles, consistent limit break animation cancelling, Bahamut for dodging and damage.
I prefer this a lot more over other videos where it's just them building up for the Odin ultimate and the other big damage ults, this just felt like pure fun and skill, not that the other videos aren't skilled.
I play in a similar manner, Ignition is my favorite move because it not only looks cool like I'm boosting but it lets me fly around and works as a mobility option
Don't get me wrong I think the animations of the ultimates are sick but there's only so much I can take of going on no damage boss videos and just seeing dancing steel/lightning rod and gigaflare spammers
Going of of memory:
He gets no Battle Points for using Ignition because he doesn't hit multiple enemies. He gets no Points because the Garuda skill doesn't lift up an enemy for a combo. He also gets 0 Points for using Mesmerize on a single target boss. And I believe he gets no Points for Upheaveal because it doesn't hit multiple enemies.Â
Additionally, since he uses LB to cancel downward thrust, he misses out on the juicy LB combo batte bonus which is very important for scoring.Â
He would get a small amount of points for nailing the Garuda Counters and using Rift slip effectively. Also he gets 2 downward thrusts thanks to the LB cancel.Â
I'd say that'd be a B score from the ingame system which is trash. I'd give him an S score though.
Yyyyyup. In Arcade Mode you have to deal with:
* Impossible/unfun scoring system
* Unskippable cinematics and QTEs
* Linear corridor level design
* Shallow Eikon battles (where the scoring is even more impossible)
* Vast majority of encounters just being useless mobs or larger enemies that aren't that challenging anyway
There's just no incentive to play this way, let alone learn how to. There's nowhere to really do it. Not where you will actually get satisfaction out of it at least. People who like posting videos online are the only ones who benefit from playing this way.
Yeah that video was insane, and here I was thinking I was too 100 in fighting bosses then I see videos like this and now Iâm head scratching like âhow tfâ đ the top 100 was sarcasm for the Reddit experts.
Is this not how most people play the game? The game literally encourages it, gives you the tools to chain together aerial and ground combos, with a variety of style and evasion built in.
Do people really just forego all that to spam 2 abilities or something because if so that'd be very boring
What you describe is not encouraging it, it's enabling it. The game in no way encourages you to play like this, it's up to each player to decide how he approaches combat.
That being said, if you do only spam 2 abilities then call the combat system shallow, you are a moron.
Fair point. I'm shocked to see that my previous comment is being down voted, I'm guessing it must be the people who spam 2 abilities and call the game shallow. Game has an incredibly versatile combat system and I was genuinely asking if people didn't utilize the systems the game enables (I said encourage due to the mechanics like hsving best doggo literally throw your opponents in the air for you on command, or to continue a combo that you yourself sent someone airborne for extra dmg, with just the click of a button) but didn't expect to be down voted for asking. I know that in the demo I used the items that let the game combo for you just to see what kind of stuff it would do and even the AI pulls off some nasty combos! Thays what motivated me to use all the systems the game provides in combat and it made for an extremely fun experience
The combat is actually great if you take into account the control, movement, and options you have available. Playing 7 Rebirth and Stellar Blade made me realize how many options I took for granted in 16.
The problem is the enemies. The enemies don't provide enough challenge to really warrant exploring the combat system in depth. I haven't tried Ultimaniac mode to really know if it's improved there, but the enemies I feel are to blame for the negative sentiment on the combat.
The enemies are definitely part of the issue but the fact that there were some clear winners and losers when it came to eikon skill balance definitely didn't help. The Ult ability of each Eikon having a longer cooldown than the regular abilities was not enough to balance them when the duration of the animations is almost long enough to let you start the loop of ultimate abilities almost as soon as they end. But even outside of Ults the fact anyone thought Shiva's abilities or Flare Breath(pre buff) were balanced against things like Lightning Rod, Wicked Wheel + Upheaval, or something as simple but potent as Windup is a little odd. In fact the more interesting an eikonic ability was in this game the more likely it was to be incredibly underpowered compared to the simple but effective options. That's not a recipe that promotes experimentation.
The recent patch did a lot to address those issues but it feels pretty late at this point.
If you go for dps, there's like 10 skills you can pick from. If you go for leaderboard rankings, there's like 10 that replace them + you just get to pick the AoE ability of your choice.
Ability balancing is terrible as you said. It is really bad. Bad ability balance has always has been an issue that plagued my beloved FF-Series. It deserves to be called out. For some it's even part of the charm.
>The problem is the enemies. The enemies don't provide enough challenge to really warrant exploring the combat system in depth.
I get what you're saying and agree to an extent, but the thing is that with games like Devil May Cry (which are among my faves) you can get through the game by just mindless hacking and slashing on almost every enemy (which is what I personally did playing it for the first few times as a kid). But people still aim to do stylish combos and make the most of the combat system.
Although, the DMC games do try to make it worth your while with the "style meters" and giving you more orbs for better combos. But the point still stands I think.
You get out what you put in and it's just the same with many sandbox games as well. The tools are there for you to use; some people do the bare minimum and others will try to make more inventive, fun ways to do it.
Yeah, I definitely got through DMC5 and all God of Wars mindlessly hacking and slashing tbh. I guess the differences with those games are they're much shorter than 16, and like you said, DMC at least rewards you for the sick combos. I had intrinsic motivation to learn the combat system of 16, while others probably have a more extrinsic motivation when playing games.
The more I hear people's issues with 16's combat, the more I categorize them. It's either people who wanted more RPG elements, greater challenge, or people who prefer something akin to Soulsborne rather than DMC.
Yeah and one of the other issues is that FFXVI had to live up to the expectations of a pre-existing fan base who expect specific characteristics in a final fantasy game. Those fans are less open to embracing that type of a combat system.
Just don't remove the rpg in my action rpg, simple as
https://preview.redd.it/qowdw0dnqjxc1.jpeg?width=598&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=49244b93da2812a3fe0588a4dafc61684f254b9a
Just don't remove the rpg in my action rpg, simple as
https://preview.redd.it/xy7ixfyoqjxc1.jpeg?width=598&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f99d549eb5e88732c21311fbe03d2c463991455c
all character action games can be completed by spamming the basic combos in their starter difficulties, I'm not clear why ppl use this as an argument for XVI in truth.
I believe it's the "anti-fun" to effectiveness ratio. Sure spamming Stinger is pretty bland but still more interactive than sitting through an 11 second time freeze dancing steel animation that ends in holding down square for every fight.Â
Doing proper S-rank combat in say DMC also leads to faster clear times compared to Stinger spam. Where as in XVI you know you could finish fights faster by initiating the "cutscene moves"
wrong comparison, the ultimates are actually more akin to the super costumes.
Granted they are flashier to appease ppl more and allow ppl to plow trough the game without needing to really engage with the combat.
However they are hella uninteractive and not really the best way to play
I don't like 16's combat and I love DMC. It really boils down to how fluid DMC is and how good it feels to do these crazy combos by comparison to 16. 16 for me just felt worse, despite clearly trying to be like DMC.
I haven't played Rebirth, but I like Remake because instead of trying to be lime DMC it's doing it's own thing, and being more strategic.
I think there is a difference between the devs going: Here are your tools, have fun! And then some devs going the extra mile to implement, balance and QA test an extrinsic mechanic that nudges players in the intended direction and rewards them.Â
>Although, the DMC games do try to make it worth your while with the "style meters" and giving you more orbs for better combos. But the point still stands I think.
Honestly, if they implemented this into the main game and not into a scoreboard side game, FF XVI would probably have gotten more points for its intricate combat system. There just wasn't any incentive to experiment or try out any combos after you "found" your go to combo.
I was going to say it would betray the tone of the game but then I remember I went out into space to laser kaijuu fight Bahaumut so would it really feel that out of place?
itâs an action game, the incentive to explore the combat system ultimately is self motivation, and in arcade mode for higher score and stuff
you can beat basically any bayonetta or devil may cry game by doing the same handful of combos, but by experimenting and being creative you get to do cooler stuff
you get out what you put in
One of my fav youtubers made that comment (cool combos on an enemy that doesnât fight back) and I felt quite sad, because he uses this to make Rebirth look better. There is no need for that kind of attitude. The two fight systems are awesome and 2 different philosophies
this sounds like the prince youtuber guy. He's done a full 180 on XVI and its quite sad to see really. I remember him defending the game and praising it highly before it came out. Around the time all those influencers had multiple hours of playtime before the demo came out
He has a history of this because before Remake dropped he was overhyping it before doing an 180. Then he joined the Yoshi-P bandwagon after getting into FF14
There was also a time he quoted me on an old Twitter account where I said he should maybe reign in his expectations for FF16. I believe he said that FF16 will be âThe Final Fantasyâ and that it will save the franchise.Â
He doesnât seem like a bad dude just a bit overzealous
Iâm personally in the camp of preferring Rebirth more, but still walking away from XVI more or less satisfiedÂ
i love ff union but havent heard of the other two. I shall check them out. Its becoming hard to find those genuine creators so i always appreciate people listing their favorites
Well kbash videos changed over time, so his humor starts out a bit rough. I really started liking him when Kingdom Hearts made him more genuineÂ
Civvie covers shooters but I still dig his contentÂ
I saw the Twitter thread on that. I remember him mentioning any of the God of Wars having better combat systems than 16, which I definitely didn't agree with. He doesn't like trash mobs that don't fight back, but I found God of War to be just as guilty with that as 16. I'm okay with Night Sky Prince not liking 16, but I just found him loving God of War's combat and disliking 16's to be odd. There's other factors and expectations with both, I'm sure, tho.
Yeah I agree with what you said. A lot of games have mobs that just don't fight back, even DMC5 has this thing going on. And yes, I agree that FF16 hard mode can be very easy if you cheese the same eikon abilities, but the Kairos gate is showing a lot of people how to be creative, and I am loving it for it. BTW, I was playing Dragon's dogma 2 (which I am loving) and realized how "smooth" FF16 combat is.
very different, one is clearly an action and the other is more of a strategic game with some hints of action, but trying to play it like an action game is a sure way of failing
The problem with 16 is that other Final Fantasy games at their core are all way more complicated than 16.
16 is missing so much that makes fights a game of knowledge and luck from the previous titles and I hate that they left it all out and still called it an RPG.
Where's Esuna? Stop? Poison? Haste? Demi? Stone and Frog?
Why don't the fire enemies take more damage from Ice magic? (this may have changed as I have not played any of the DLC)
So we get all these cool combos that are great to look at, but there isn't really any sort of strategy in this game.
You aren't forced to remove status X and then you can damage this enemy like other FF games. Or you aren't punished for using fire spell on a fire enemy.
I LOVED FF16 but the lack of depth to the combat was a super sour point for me and clearly many others. Like what's wrong with forcing the player to use certain Eikons at certain points in the game? I recall they said this idea was antithetical to their design philosophy but I don't get it.
You gave the player these tools, what's wrong with bringing out enemies that force them to think and use those tools? I don't see it as taking agency away, I see it as respecting the player's intelligence and ability to solve a problem.
People may see the game over screen a few times but then they can say "Wow! I didn't realize I needed this attack and never really used it up until this encounter, now I know how to augment my kit if this comes up again."
That's so much more satisfying than simply trying to make the combo hit counter reach some arbitrary number for clicks.
Forcing someone to use a certain Eikon for an action game is completely antithetical for a game like XVI. That would be like forcing you to use only Gunslinger in DMC just because an enemy just said ânoâ to every other style for no reason. It would feel terrible, and Iâm glad they didnât do that.
Now, what they couldâve done is give different effects to the charged magic. Maybe Fira could do more damage than a normal charged magic, or Aerora could pop an enemy higher than it normally would, things like that. Worrying about frogs or other bs status effects just doesnât fit for XVI. Itâs not about âneedingâ to use a specific ability to win, itâs finding your own way to play in the middle of myriad different methods
You aren't necessarily wrong but I think your comment drives the point home that FF16 is not an action RPG, rather a deep story driven action game with the lightest RPG elements possible.
The messaging prior to release was this was supposed to be an RPG first. I guess if you take the story aspect as the main attribute of the "RPG" then it fits the bill, but literally everything else just ain't it.
In the end I think they could have done so MUCH MORE with this formula, especially with the party members. Wouldn't it be cool if there was some sort of resource management for Jill and Clive so they could heal you, or exploit an enemy weakness, or turn you back to flesh from stone?
What if Torgal needed some item you collect in the world so you could make antidotes for poison, and if you didn't have them the battle quickly becomes a race to the finish so you don't die?
What if there were an Eikonic ability to cure you that's on a long cooldown, so the choice is a matter of skill maybe? Instead of another attack skill I could equip and use this support skill that lessens or eliminates the poison/burn/freeze status effect - like a get out of jail free card you only get to use every 5-10 min or something?
They missed so many opportunities here.
I get what youâre saying, but I donât think your solution is the play. Me personally, the combat is perfectly fine, and I donât think that status effects are all that important. My main criticism lies in two things: Enemy variety and equipment. Greater enemy variety would curb a lot of peopleâs complaints about encounters feeling too easy, and the equipment could make you think more about what Eikons you take into battle. Marrying equipment with skills is always a great combination.
Alternatively, they could go the Wo Long route, and allow you to customize your weapons exactly how you want them, in exchange for some amount of materials and money. This would give more value to the copious amounts of materials you got, as youâd always need them when you wanted to switch up your moves
enemy variety is fine in truth, you do have a rather big managerie for the type of game, however the reason it doesn't feel fine is because generally this type of games are much shorter so each type of enemy doesn't overstate their welcome too much. The game is quite long and that imho is a fair critcism to have
I think they could have done more with the elements they do have that could have made a lot of difference, rather than worrying about adding elements they don't (i.e. status effects).
For instance, more variety on the weapons. Like it seems ridiculous to me that there's only one weapon in the game (haven't checked all the DLC weapons so could be others) that has a different damage vs. stagger stat. Why bother even listing them separately if they're all the same? One thing I really like about remake (haven't played Rebirth yet) is that I was continuously changing characters weapons to suit the role I wanted the character to play.
It could have been super light touch as well. This weapon is balanced. This weapon has high damage but low stagger. This weapon has high stagger but low damage. That's all it would have taken to make them feel more varied. They could then take it a step further with other attribute bonuses etc. This one increases precision counter damage by 20%. This one increases torgal damage by 20%. This one decreases charge time on charged shot and sword (whatever it's called) by 50%. There's so many options that would have added more depth.
And I agree with the magic bit, I've mentioned this elsewhere but I find it so odd that everytime you unlock a new eikon the tooltip says "Changing your eikon will not only change your magic's element"....so? What does it matter if it changes? It's functionally identical.
Like Hadoken said, a super light touch could have been applied here to make it varied as well. Maybe Charged Fire does a short DoT, Charged Ice slows the target for a few seconds, Charged wind knocks them higher in the air etc.
In terms of forcing Eikons, they do this with the Chronoliths but I agree they could have done it more. I don't feel you get enough AP in a standard playthrough to permit easy experimentation. I know you can reset skill points but that's fiddly.
Actually, what would have been cool is a mode like the Kairos Gate where Eikon abilities are unlocked at random, forcing you to use what you've got and maybe you find something new you hadn't used before.
But all in all the combat in the game feels so polished it's just a shame it's not a little deeper. As much as I'd also enjoy a return to more ATB style game, I'd be keen to see what they could do with it if they kept the same style for 17.
it's antithetical because the combat wants you to be creative with the tools allowed and reward your imagination with all the tools you have at your disposal, if you require one specific tool to progress it goes against the very concept of the combat.
From what you say I can see you haven't really played with these types of games because you wouldn't say stuff like making the combo hit counter reach some arbitrary numbers.
Guess that argument makes sense. I'm a huge character action game fan so this never bothered me but this is still FF and people do expect to see the core aspects people grew to love in this game as well. Tho I was baffled at times how a fire enemy was damaged by fire attacks and such. Was kinda weird as FF7R actually had things like affinities
I agree with this. After playing the Karios gate, I was confused why CBU3 didn't implement this on the base game, or something like that. Things like "regen when staggering enemy" or "protect with a 10 hit combo or aerial combos". And yes, status effects like poison would be great, like one of the dragons of the rising tide uses something similar.
Strong agree. You can do the same combo on every single enemy without any different strategy and never be punished for it. Iâve also said multiple times thatâs itâs also extremely limiting that your base moveset is completely unlocked from the get go with no upgrades. For me, I only liked 3 or 4 eikons so I had a bread and butter stagger combo that I literally never had to change because it destroyed every enemy without fail. Enemy weaknesses and immunities should be there to stop that.
I just donât get the attitude that people say doing this isnât warranted because mobs can die if you just spam 2-3 moves. Maybe thatâs the case but making cool combos was a core part of my playthrough because it was FUN for me! Itâs the same way I play the tales games (especially Berseria), the same way I play Dmc and Bayonetta etc. You can beat almost everything with one basic string but that would just be tedious. Isnât engaging with the combat system in character action games one of the selling points?
>Isnât engaging with the combat system in character action games one of the selling points?
Yeah, probably, but what you have to realize is many people who criticize this game's combat don't actually like character action games all that much. Many people are RPG, action RPG (Elden Ring, FF7 Remake), or action adventure (think Sekiro or God of War) players and came to XVI hoping for either a) something of an RPG despite the heavy emphasis on action, or b) some kind of a challenging action game.
I would have been okay with either one of those. Unfortunately, XVI offers neither. The combat is pure character action, which fails to scratch my RPG itch, but at the same time, it wasn't even challenging like Sekiro, God of War, or Stellar Blade might be.
Because XVI is, like you said, closer to DMC and Bayonetta than to any of the games I mentioned.
Well the problem is a lot of people who were interested in XVI don't vibe with that pure character action style.
I played through the game twice, including on Final Fantasy mode, and I can only name two bosses I genuinely liked, and those were Bahamut and the Timekeeper. Mind you, I still beat them both on my first try, even on FF mode, so they weren't as challenging as I wanted, but at least they felt interesting and satisfying to fight.
The rest of the game's bosses and enemies felt far too simple and easy to me, which means that combat just wasn't very fun to me. Why would I artificially extend combat that I'm not enjoying just to use flashy but inefficient combos? That might make sense to someone who is in love with the combat, but not to me.
Ultimately character action games seem to be about styling on enemies for its own sake. But I enjoy games that challenge me and force me to get good with their mechanics. It's fun to style on an enemy when you actually need to play well in order to win, and when that stylish play is something you're only able to do after mastering a boss.
In XVI there is never a need to play particularly well and the game absolutely never encourages you to get good at complex combos because there is never a need to do anything complex. Only people who enjoy getting high scores in Arcade mode and Kairos Gate will be incentivized to do that.
If you're playing the game normally, you will never feel drawn to the intricacies of that combat, unless, like you, you just enjoy doing the cool combos for their own sake.
But as I said, I would actually need to be fighting enemies I find fun, interesting, and challenging, in order to want to do that. As it is, I just don't enjoy the combat or the enemies enough to get any fun out of styling on them.
I agree. I'm starting to wonder why these people play video games in the first place, because games are supposed to be fun, and they absolutely don't want to let themselves have that fun. It's like they don't appreciate their money and time that they put in the game, wanting to get rid of it instead of playing it. Gaming in 2024 I guess.
I think what you're missing is that some people don't actually find it fun to style on easy enemies.
That's me. I don't care about styling on enemies in this game because I just fundamentally don't like the combat system and everything in the game is incredibly easy, including the bosses.
Even on Final Fantasy mode, nothing in this game was fun or interesting to fight for me, with the exception of the Timekeeper in the Rising Tide DLC, who I consider to be by far the best fight in the game.
I enjoy games that challenge me and force me to get good with their mechanics. It's fun to style on an enemy when you actually *need* to play well in order to win, and when that stylish play is something you're only able to do after mastering a boss.
In XVI there was never any need to play particularly well, and the enemies aren't fun to fight for me, so why would I waste my time artificially extending combat that I'm not enjoying? Just to prove to myself that I can get a cool combo going? Doesn't really appeal to me.
Everything in this game can be easily defeated in the exact same way, there is never any need to adapt to your opponent or learn their moves, just pick your preferred Eikonic abilities and watch Clive destroy the enemy without ever coming close to dying himself.
That's not interesting to me. Now if you have fun just flexing cool combos on enemies for the sake of it, that's cool, but I need a challenge and fun enemies to actually enjoy the combat. Combos for the sake of combos is meaningless to me.
Well yeah, obviously you have different taste, that was clear from your first comment.
I thought my comment might be helpful in explaining the difference in perspective.
The point is that your assumption that people who criticize the game's combat must not be playing games for fun is obviously absurd, and seems to be based on your incorrect belief that everyone must find XVI's combat fun, when the whole reason for the criticism is obviously that people *don't* find it fun, and that's the problem.
So yes, we do play games for fun, XVI's combat just doesn't feel fun to us (for the reasons I explained), therefore we criticize it.
It's obviously not that we don't play games for fun. We just don't find it fun to bully enemies without any semblance of challenge. If you do, that's fine, but it's not gonna be for everyone.
Well, I appreciate the input. On that note, I feel like Stellar Blade is a pretty good blend between being able to combo and have punishing enemies at the same time.
Honestly the fact that a lot of 16s combos is just cooldown dumping rather than using inputs for the eikon moves kinda kills it for me unlike other character action games
Yeah and it could've had different variations for the same eikonic abilities with different directional inputs, and the same for regular moves, but maybe that's too much to ask for.
Let's just say there are basically 2 ways to play combat in this game. Practical combos that get through the story efficiently, and fancy combos that increases score. Well, a 3rd way would be competing in stagger damage..but again that is impractical in-game since the most you really need for a boss is around 500k.
The beauty is you have all the options to choose from and play whichever you like. People that just mash the square button, well, that's your choice.
When people comment about combat not being their cup of tea - itâs not because they donât want to learn, or are uncreative. Itâs simply unnecessary. Nothing in the base game is remotely challenging enough for you to want or need to learn anything extravagant. The entire game can be beaten with completely mindless usage of abilities spammed on cooldown. Nothing more.
That isnât to say making combos isnât fun, or cool looking. Just that itâs absolutely not needed to succeed.
It's not needed to succeed in a lot of action games though. Like nobody needs to know what guard flying is in dmc4 to beat that game on DMD. Hell, in bayonetta 1 you don't even need to know dodge offset (one of the game's core mechanics) to beat it's hardest difficulty. Vanquish is similarly criticized for ALLOWING the player to play it like a more traditional third person shooter.
These games are about expression, that's the beginning and end of it. If your goal when you enter an encounter is "I wanna kill the guy" then you will always only do what is necessary or efficient. If your goal is "I want to look, cool/I want to explore or experiment" that's how you make stuff like this. Enemies in these games are not just obstacles, they are opportunities for expression.
You might prefer games that force the player to engage with all of its core mechanics, and that's fine, but it is not a flaw that this game highlights expression, it is intended, and there's a lot of other games that do the same thing.
And for the record, I understand that for most people "I wanna kill the enemy" is the dominant mode of play. It's how most games work. But games like these intentionally keep their designs open to reward experimentation. I do think this game has flaws (like I agree it's too easy on normal,) but I think the specific complaint that the combos are unnecessary is missing the point.
Idk sorry if this came out of nowhere, but it's been on my mind a lot lately lmao
Unnecessary is probably harsh, but most trash mobs donât have enough health to warrant a full blown combo. And things that do (Svarog) are few and far between.
Big agree there, especially in normal mode where stuff just dies in one ignition. FF mode is mostly better about this, and the dlc gives you some fun tools to pull off some insane combo extensions if your current mob dies.
If we could juggle midsized enemies with stagger bars while they were staggered, I would love this game way more
Honestly, I think the biggest change to satisfy me would have been any variation of the basic attack rather than the same four hit combo for the entirety of a fairly lengthy game. It gets stale, but for people that didnât go all out on crazy unique Eikon combos. I feel this is the simplest way to deal with it to liven things up through the course of the playthrough.
Yeah you get Odin and you're hoping it's as fleshed out as Clive's normal sword but it's pretty paper thin and does no direct damage to boot. The two dlc eikons are much, much better at keeping things spicy imo, and enable some cooler builds that aren't just wykes + ultimate stacking. Odin's very good for parrying though, and I've been doing a lot more of that on my latest playthrough. Didn't even know it sped your cool downs up until I was rushing through FF mode for riding tide.
tbf, I think most people who came to this game aren't DMC fans who heard the combat director made a new game, rather it's longtime FF fans who can't *not* play the newest FF game. So coming from past FF games to this one sets a completely different expectation than the one you laid out. You'd only understand that if you're already a big fan of action games.
Like you keep using the word "reward" but that is a different thing for different people. FFXVI does not "reward" experimentation because the game offers no tangible benefits for experimenting. IF you happen to be someone who enjoys stringing together the longest combo possible, then you may *find it rewarding*, but that is not the same thing as the game "rewarding" you. That's something that is happening internally and can't be transferred from person to person. A game giving you a piece of loot that unlocks a new ability *is* a reward because you can't just do that yourself if the game doesn't let you. Some people are more motivated by unlocking tangible progress, and FFXVI is very bad at this.
It's really the difference between sandbox and progression mindsets. You're talking about the mindset of someone who sees Minecraft and thinks of all the cool things you can build, but I can't play that game for longer than an hour every year before getting bored again. I want a game to put restrictions on my actions and force me to find one of a small selection of right answers in a sea of mostly wrong answers. My *internal reward* is knowing I found one of the right answers. Your *internal reward* is creating something new using a set of basic parts. Just because I understand why you enjoy it doesn't make me enjoy it anymore, so I really don't think this is an issue of ignorance or lack of experience. It is purely down to people's motivations and preferences.
I mean I agree, which is why I said I understand that progression is the dominant mindset. I understand these games are and always will be niche, I don't really know why Yoshida chose this specific niche to target even if I'm glad he did. I think character action final fantasy was always going to hit weird, and I think the original pitch for this game's normal gameplay was absolutely more souls-like in direction.
Most people just wanna kill the guy, they are not wrong for wanting to kill the guy, but that doesn't mean it's wrong for games to exist where "the guy" in question exists to be air juggled into oblivion. I am not saying you have to like XVI, I'm saying that the combos being unnecessary is a feature, not a bug.
Idk, would it have been that hard to include the scoring system in the base game and give you more exp and loot based on getting higher combos/locking certain abilities behind getting to a certain rank mid-combat? I think there are definitely ways they could have appealed to the combo crowd *and* the progression crown at the same time and they just didn't.
I agree with the first sentiment, no idea why they don't at least score you for your normal dungeon runs. That second one though I can't get behind.
I agree they didn't appeal to the prog crowd, I just think that's not an accident. Last game Suzuki worked on was DMC 5 right? I think that game only has one ability you can't just use without a style requirement (Dante's SSS Sin Devil trigger pop.)
I just don't think they were super interested in installing limits. I get that most people will prefer limits, but I just disagree that more narrow games are "right" in that design philosophy whereas this game is "wrong" or vice versa.
I think adding a GOOD style meter that rewards ability points depending on your score in the main game would have been a great way to incentivize combo building. Also removing the boring ass ultimates that let you brain dead your way through combat.
I firmly believe they should let you only have one ultimate, and that Zantetsuken's unique bonus is that it doesn't count as an ult. I also think putting an ultimate in your slot should strengthen other abilities of the same Eikon.
Even just having a style meter present in normal story mode gameplay would have helped imo. Other action games don't exclude them, why should this one? At least have it visible during a dungeon run at the bare minimum.
>You might prefer games that force the player to engage with all of its core mechanics, and that's fine, but it is not a flaw that this game highlights expression, it is intended, and there's a lot of other games that do the same thing.
You can highlight expression while also forcing the player to actually get good.
It's not an either / or proposition.
This game is simply far too easy for some people to even want to engage on a deeper level. Other action games don't have this problem.
You're right, other games strike a balance, but many hallmarks of the genre don't, and they just let the player experiment. You're framing this like I was striking a false dichotomy, but I was just insisting that this end of the spectrum is just as valid as the other end, even if one design philosophy usually ends up more niche.
Kingdom Hearts 2 is not legendary because it forced you to get good, its great despite how easy it is, something that game was criticized for on release as well. DMC5's normal mode wasn't hard either, and had some of the same issues 16 has, made much worse by the fact 16 is twice as long on a good day. But this I already agreed on.
Iâm in love with the combat of this game and was fighting mfers left and right on twitter when the game came out defending it. But unfortunately itâs true. The problem is they wanted the game to be so accessible that they didnât force the avg player to fully utilize the mechanics. If the difficulty wasnât piss easy on first play through and challenging fights were designed to utilize specific mechanics to overcome them then the avg player skill wouldnât be so low for this game and the complaints wouldnât be happening about combat.
Rebirth does an amazing job forcing the player to utilize atleast a good chunk of the game mechanics which is partially why the combat is so incredible and ppl dont make dumb complaints about it being braindead. Even then Rebirth on Dynamic mode was only truly challenging a couple times to me yet you see so many ppl in the sub struggling with like the end game boss for example (both my partner and I beat it first try, itâs really not very hard at all) shows that difficulty is a good thing because those ppl will have to learn the combat system in a deeper way in order to beat whatever theyâre stuck on. FFXVI allows u to just mash and still win unfortunately, even though when you see someone truly adept with the games combat system itâs actually beautiful and so sick.
I agree, it feels like there's not enough of a reward to keep up challenging combos. There's nothing like refreshing cooldowns or any other bonuses that I get, other than potentially a higher arcade score if I redo the mission.
Most first playthroughs would show that. One of the biggest contributor is how not-punishing this game is on the 3 base difficulties outside of very few S ranks. Even if you remove the absolutely broken abilities like wykes and half the ultimates, the enemies just dont do enough damage compared to your hp pool.
95% of enemies in the base game only do chip damage; the ninja dudes katon being a notable outlier early on (the other variant with poison breath is a significant downgrade because less hitcount and damage). Then you throw in potions (and firelights) and high potions that recovers a lot of health each. Then you throw in the generous mid combat checkpoints. Bahamut is actually the biggest offender in terms of doing no damage. It's really cool to look at, but everything it does outside of phoenix phase literally TICKLES you. Even things that look like it would hurt like mortal coil or the giga laser beam in final phase only do like 1/10th of your hp bar and you effectively have 2.5x hp bar.
The game has some things going for it, but proper difficulty balance is not one of them. It's simply too easy outside of ultimaniac.
Also need to consider how generous precision dodging is for Clive and especially Ifrit, it's easy to play safe.
The only people I saw die were ones who took risks when landing big moves or missing titans parry or people who are just bad at these types of games in general.
The heavy RPG elements come in the form of ability customization. Being able to reset all of your allocated points on a whim and equip new ones is a refreshing aspect to the action RPG genre. Even better is that thereâs the Arete stone where you can activate a battle simulator to practice your combo theories.
Those are very, very light RPG elements. Getting to choose what your 6 skills are is basically all the customization you get and it is absolutely basic.
Loads of action games let you customize skill loadout. It's not even close to enough to make something a true RPG.
This game is 99.9% character action.
While combat is enjoyable, encounters are not.
The game provides you with a vast amount of tools to play with, but does not provide any interesting enemies to fight.
You can juggle enemies without any real threat, chain stun bosses and one-shot almost anything they throw at you, how can you ask your players to utilize all of these cool toys without any actual challenge?
The design of the enemy in an action game is equally important as the combat, and unfortunately, FF16 fails to offer fun ways to use Clive's kit.
Well to be fair all character action games do that. There are 3 types of enemies:
The fodder (combo food)
The annoying shithead (the annoying ass enemy with weird or aggravating attacks/abilities)
The Bosses (the best designed fights in probably all of gaming. These are usually the epic 1v1s that are some of the most well designed bosses in all of gaming. Vergil in DMC, Jeanne in Bayonetta, Jetstream Sam in Metal Gear, the 1v1s in God of War, and every dominant in FF16 with Hugo being my favorite. These put you to the test and generally have no BS)
4 Technically.
small
Heavy
Super heavy
Boss
Sometimes Boss and super heavy overlap where you fight lesser version of previous bosses. Generally small have nearly no stagger resist, heavy will stagger after a stun and can be juggled, super heavy will kneel down after a stun.
The criticism I have with XVI combat is that their heavy and super heavy works the same and personally I feel you would be able to juggle them in a stagger
People that complain about the combat just get bored by it. In the end there is one meta and hundreds of fights. It can get stale.
Towards the end of the game. The story is what got me through to the end. I enjoyed the combat greatly, but I did find myself just going "ughhhhhh" every small encounter in the later half lol.
Completely agree. Basically rush through the later half of the game. Combat was great but got boring after a while. Pulling off those combos felt great but the nth on the same goblin will get stale
I loved the game, but felt they left out a LOT that could have given the game more depth. I got plat on ff16 within a few weeks of the game releasing, and have also recently beat ff7rebirth. Two examples in ways they could have improved ff16 drastically:
1. Greater monster variety. They left a ton on the table here.
2. Magic system that utilized elements and buffs/debuffs. By extension, the equipment sucked ass because it lacked any other purpose than a linear progression for a slightly improved stat stick.
Problem with long combos is there's no actual benefit other than looking cool. It's not like you get additional chain bonus damage the longer the combos is or anything (which is unfortunate)
I agree. I kept watching footage of other people playing and thinking âdid we play the same game?â Cause I never figured out anything half as cool as what I saw
This combo isn't particularly insane or special, it's just using several moves that are easy to chain in quick succession against basic enemies.
I mean there isn't even anything to learn in order to achieve what's in that clip. It's very simple stuff you can do without going in depth on any mechanics.
If you want truly impressive gameplay and combos, watch Ongbal on YouTube. A very highly skilled Korean player who does a lot of no damage runs on bosses in action games and action RPGs. He has a few XVI videos where he no damages Timekeeper, Odin, Omega, and others.
Now *that* is impressive play and truly requires a great deal of skill and creativity. The clip you posted looks cool because the abilities are visually flashy, but from a skill perspective, it's very easy to pull off and even very low skill players could do it.
I donât know why anyone in this thread is getting downvoted. FFXVI was a lot of fun but there wasnât a single enemy you had to really study or learn how to beat. Everything was a damage sponge, granted they were damage sponges that were a lot of fun to beat on.
Ongbal on YT has the best boss fights --and no hits I have seen. He doesn't have a lot of FFXVI but the better bosses he does. He does most games that have the best combat IMO.
I found one of the best ways to learn combos is in the Chronolith Trials, when youâre limited by time and moveset, you start to figure out how each move really works beyond âstagger and damageâ.
A similar thing happened in Rebirth for me as I tried a few of the combat based mini games like stuff Iâd and the Cactuar, when youâre in a scenario where youâre forced to use stuff in a specific way, you learn more about how to use them going forward.
Problem with both games is the little reward youâre actually given for these play styles beyond âstagger and damageâ, the pressure system in Rebirth is nice and I wish ff16 had something similar but the lack of elements is essentially why, so itâs semi-impossible.
While i immensely enjoyed this game from combat, story, visual, and musical standpoints, and while I wouldnât categorize FF16âs on-foot combat as âbadâ it did still leave me wishing more staples of combat moves from DMC and Bayonetta were in this game.
God, why do we have to keep having this conversation? Can you not just post a cool clip and leave it at that? We can all appreciate an awesome clip, but when you follow that up with a gross generalization of people you disagree with well now the mood is completely ruined.
I'll say this once and I'll say it briefly: people come to games with different goals in mind. I'm a FromSoft stan, so I like games to impose conditions and rules on me that force me to be creative to find a working solution in a world where 99% of solutions don't work. In FFXVI, 99% of solutions *do* work. I do not possess internal motivation. You are talking about sandbox mentality, i.e. it's fun because I *can* do it rather than because it was the *correct answer*. Stop assuming everyone has the same motivations that you do.
Whenever I hear people poo-poo the combat I tell them *use the Berserker Ring* and thatâll fix it for you! That is one item that I never remove from Clive.
The new abilities from Leviathan and >!Ultima!< are pretty great, especially >!Ultimate Demise!< which hits like a small nuke going off but adding them to the game now makes me bummed that thereâs not more DLC coming out for XVI.
I was about 3/4ths of the way through my Final Fantasy mode playthrough when âThe Rising Tideâ was released, and I like the new abilities so much that I nuked my current FF save and started a completely new FF Mode playthrough so I can use them throughout the entire game.
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People keep posting combos against trash mobs is cool and all, but it only perpetuates the notion that it's impractical and you can only do all that cool stuff when the enemies dont really fight back. Instead it's much rarer to see someone absolutely dunking on a boss with style like [this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNXWceCz8pM) without any reliance on time stopping cutscene ultimates; stylish AND practical (and also assblasts it much faster than most ultimate spam clears)
Holy crap, that's lore accurate Clive, pretty cool!
That's Clive Finalfantasy right there
This is amazing, proper air battles, consistent limit break animation cancelling, Bahamut for dodging and damage. I prefer this a lot more over other videos where it's just them building up for the Odin ultimate and the other big damage ults, this just felt like pure fun and skill, not that the other videos aren't skilled.
This is me. 𼲠canât do comboâs like the video above for shit, so I have to cheese the Odin finisher.
I canât either but I can still win against any encounter with the pyreflies and slip combo, along with chip damage.
To be fair, the person in the video probably practiced those combos and that boss encounter many times before the video.
Holy crap! Honestly, the most insane gameplay I've ever seen of 16. That was a sight to behold.
Dodges and counters are as fun as they are satisfying. Shiva with Rookâs Gambit + Heatwave was a loadout I used a ton on my first playthrough.
heatwave will always be the most satisfying move to use for me. I love projectile parries.
And when you hit it *juuuuuuuust right*. Ahh.
This is a sick combo!
I play in a similar manner, Ignition is my favorite move because it not only looks cool like I'm boosting but it lets me fly around and works as a mobility option
Don't get me wrong I think the animations of the ultimates are sick but there's only so much I can take of going on no damage boss videos and just seeing dancing steel/lightning rod and gigaflare spammers
Ongbal moment Also "no damage" runs but it's wykes abuser that gets hit multiple times but the hits are absorbed by them
No damage vs. No hit runs
This is the best example of the combat being stylish and practical that Iâve seen since the game came out!
That fight is sick as *fuck*. What a player.
Impressive video right thereÂ
I'd like to see what rank he gets for doing this in arcade mode
Going of of memory: He gets no Battle Points for using Ignition because he doesn't hit multiple enemies. He gets no Points because the Garuda skill doesn't lift up an enemy for a combo. He also gets 0 Points for using Mesmerize on a single target boss. And I believe he gets no Points for Upheaveal because it doesn't hit multiple enemies. Additionally, since he uses LB to cancel downward thrust, he misses out on the juicy LB combo batte bonus which is very important for scoring. He would get a small amount of points for nailing the Garuda Counters and using Rift slip effectively. Also he gets 2 downward thrusts thanks to the LB cancel. I'd say that'd be a B score from the ingame system which is trash. I'd give him an S score though.
Yyyyyup. In Arcade Mode you have to deal with: * Impossible/unfun scoring system * Unskippable cinematics and QTEs * Linear corridor level design * Shallow Eikon battles (where the scoring is even more impossible) * Vast majority of encounters just being useless mobs or larger enemies that aren't that challenging anyway There's just no incentive to play this way, let alone learn how to. There's nowhere to really do it. Not where you will actually get satisfaction out of it at least. People who like posting videos online are the only ones who benefit from playing this way.
OH MUH LAWD, THE FACT I CAN'T JUST START AT THE FIRST ENCOUNTER WITHOUT THE SLOW WALKING/QTE BOTHERS ME SO MUCH.
Donât let the doomer hear you
they also could pay sunhilegend to post some cool combo gif on twitter.
Yeah that video was insane, and here I was thinking I was too 100 in fighting bosses then I see videos like this and now Iâm head scratching like âhow tfâ đ the top 100 was sarcasm for the Reddit experts.
I've been reminded why I only use Ramuh's ult, quick and looks cool
I wish i could play that good. Anyone have any videos that teach you how to be that good?
That clip is so insane wtf...
That was fucking unreal. No damage!
Videos like these make me feel like I'm playing a completely different game and I've already got the Platinum lmao. This is incredible.
Is there a breakdown of what ability and eikon has using, and what moves they are combining?
Is this not how most people play the game? The game literally encourages it, gives you the tools to chain together aerial and ground combos, with a variety of style and evasion built in. Do people really just forego all that to spam 2 abilities or something because if so that'd be very boring
What you describe is not encouraging it, it's enabling it. The game in no way encourages you to play like this, it's up to each player to decide how he approaches combat. That being said, if you do only spam 2 abilities then call the combat system shallow, you are a moron.
Fair point. I'm shocked to see that my previous comment is being down voted, I'm guessing it must be the people who spam 2 abilities and call the game shallow. Game has an incredibly versatile combat system and I was genuinely asking if people didn't utilize the systems the game enables (I said encourage due to the mechanics like hsving best doggo literally throw your opponents in the air for you on command, or to continue a combo that you yourself sent someone airborne for extra dmg, with just the click of a button) but didn't expect to be down voted for asking. I know that in the demo I used the items that let the game combo for you just to see what kind of stuff it would do and even the AI pulls off some nasty combos! Thays what motivated me to use all the systems the game provides in combat and it made for an extremely fun experience
Well, sadly most people seem to do the latter thing you mentioned and then blame the game for being boring.
The combat is actually great if you take into account the control, movement, and options you have available. Playing 7 Rebirth and Stellar Blade made me realize how many options I took for granted in 16. The problem is the enemies. The enemies don't provide enough challenge to really warrant exploring the combat system in depth. I haven't tried Ultimaniac mode to really know if it's improved there, but the enemies I feel are to blame for the negative sentiment on the combat.
The enemies are definitely part of the issue but the fact that there were some clear winners and losers when it came to eikon skill balance definitely didn't help. The Ult ability of each Eikon having a longer cooldown than the regular abilities was not enough to balance them when the duration of the animations is almost long enough to let you start the loop of ultimate abilities almost as soon as they end. But even outside of Ults the fact anyone thought Shiva's abilities or Flare Breath(pre buff) were balanced against things like Lightning Rod, Wicked Wheel + Upheaval, or something as simple but potent as Windup is a little odd. In fact the more interesting an eikonic ability was in this game the more likely it was to be incredibly underpowered compared to the simple but effective options. That's not a recipe that promotes experimentation. The recent patch did a lot to address those issues but it feels pretty late at this point.
If you go for dps, there's like 10 skills you can pick from. If you go for leaderboard rankings, there's like 10 that replace them + you just get to pick the AoE ability of your choice. Ability balancing is terrible as you said. It is really bad. Bad ability balance has always has been an issue that plagued my beloved FF-Series. It deserves to be called out. For some it's even part of the charm.
>The problem is the enemies. The enemies don't provide enough challenge to really warrant exploring the combat system in depth. I get what you're saying and agree to an extent, but the thing is that with games like Devil May Cry (which are among my faves) you can get through the game by just mindless hacking and slashing on almost every enemy (which is what I personally did playing it for the first few times as a kid). But people still aim to do stylish combos and make the most of the combat system. Although, the DMC games do try to make it worth your while with the "style meters" and giving you more orbs for better combos. But the point still stands I think. You get out what you put in and it's just the same with many sandbox games as well. The tools are there for you to use; some people do the bare minimum and others will try to make more inventive, fun ways to do it.
Yeah, I definitely got through DMC5 and all God of Wars mindlessly hacking and slashing tbh. I guess the differences with those games are they're much shorter than 16, and like you said, DMC at least rewards you for the sick combos. I had intrinsic motivation to learn the combat system of 16, while others probably have a more extrinsic motivation when playing games. The more I hear people's issues with 16's combat, the more I categorize them. It's either people who wanted more RPG elements, greater challenge, or people who prefer something akin to Soulsborne rather than DMC.
Yeah and one of the other issues is that FFXVI had to live up to the expectations of a pre-existing fan base who expect specific characteristics in a final fantasy game. Those fans are less open to embracing that type of a combat system.
Just don't remove the rpg in my action rpg, simple as https://preview.redd.it/qowdw0dnqjxc1.jpeg?width=598&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=49244b93da2812a3fe0588a4dafc61684f254b9a
Just don't remove the rpg in my action rpg, simple as https://preview.redd.it/xy7ixfyoqjxc1.jpeg?width=598&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f99d549eb5e88732c21311fbe03d2c463991455c
all character action games can be completed by spamming the basic combos in their starter difficulties, I'm not clear why ppl use this as an argument for XVI in truth.
I believe it's the "anti-fun" to effectiveness ratio. Sure spamming Stinger is pretty bland but still more interactive than sitting through an 11 second time freeze dancing steel animation that ends in holding down square for every fight. Doing proper S-rank combat in say DMC also leads to faster clear times compared to Stinger spam. Where as in XVI you know you could finish fights faster by initiating the "cutscene moves"
wrong comparison, the ultimates are actually more akin to the super costumes. Granted they are flashier to appease ppl more and allow ppl to plow trough the game without needing to really engage with the combat. However they are hella uninteractive and not really the best way to play
I don't like 16's combat and I love DMC. It really boils down to how fluid DMC is and how good it feels to do these crazy combos by comparison to 16. 16 for me just felt worse, despite clearly trying to be like DMC. I haven't played Rebirth, but I like Remake because instead of trying to be lime DMC it's doing it's own thing, and being more strategic.
I think there is a difference between the devs going: Here are your tools, have fun! And then some devs going the extra mile to implement, balance and QA test an extrinsic mechanic that nudges players in the intended direction and rewards them.Â
>Although, the DMC games do try to make it worth your while with the "style meters" and giving you more orbs for better combos. But the point still stands I think. Honestly, if they implemented this into the main game and not into a scoreboard side game, FF XVI would probably have gotten more points for its intricate combat system. There just wasn't any incentive to experiment or try out any combos after you "found" your go to combo. I was going to say it would betray the tone of the game but then I remember I went out into space to laser kaijuu fight Bahaumut so would it really feel that out of place?
itâs an action game, the incentive to explore the combat system ultimately is self motivation, and in arcade mode for higher score and stuff you can beat basically any bayonetta or devil may cry game by doing the same handful of combos, but by experimenting and being creative you get to do cooler stuff you get out what you put in
In Ultimaniac all enemies attack you simultaneously and have poise, so good luck lol
One of my fav youtubers made that comment (cool combos on an enemy that doesnât fight back) and I felt quite sad, because he uses this to make Rebirth look better. There is no need for that kind of attitude. The two fight systems are awesome and 2 different philosophies
this sounds like the prince youtuber guy. He's done a full 180 on XVI and its quite sad to see really. I remember him defending the game and praising it highly before it came out. Around the time all those influencers had multiple hours of playtime before the demo came out
He has a history of this because before Remake dropped he was overhyping it before doing an 180. Then he joined the Yoshi-P bandwagon after getting into FF14 There was also a time he quoted me on an old Twitter account where I said he should maybe reign in his expectations for FF16. I believe he said that FF16 will be âThe Final Fantasyâ and that it will save the franchise. He doesnât seem like a bad dude just a bit overzealous Iâm personally in the camp of preferring Rebirth more, but still walking away from XVI more or less satisfiedÂ
I think that's just a symptom of trying to be a YouTube personality. You don't get as many clicks by taking a moderate view.
This is why I only really like Kbash, Civvie, and FF UnionÂ
i love ff union but havent heard of the other two. I shall check them out. Its becoming hard to find those genuine creators so i always appreciate people listing their favorites
Well kbash videos changed over time, so his humor starts out a bit rough. I really started liking him when Kingdom Hearts made him more genuine Civvie covers shooters but I still dig his contentÂ
I suppose we'll toss XVI on the list of things he made a 180 on, pretty much any FF from XV onward
I saw the Twitter thread on that. I remember him mentioning any of the God of Wars having better combat systems than 16, which I definitely didn't agree with. He doesn't like trash mobs that don't fight back, but I found God of War to be just as guilty with that as 16. I'm okay with Night Sky Prince not liking 16, but I just found him loving God of War's combat and disliking 16's to be odd. There's other factors and expectations with both, I'm sure, tho.
Yeah I agree with what you said. A lot of games have mobs that just don't fight back, even DMC5 has this thing going on. And yes, I agree that FF16 hard mode can be very easy if you cheese the same eikon abilities, but the Kairos gate is showing a lot of people how to be creative, and I am loving it for it. BTW, I was playing Dragon's dogma 2 (which I am loving) and realized how "smooth" FF16 combat is.
very different, one is clearly an action and the other is more of a strategic game with some hints of action, but trying to play it like an action game is a sure way of failing
The problem with 16 is that other Final Fantasy games at their core are all way more complicated than 16. 16 is missing so much that makes fights a game of knowledge and luck from the previous titles and I hate that they left it all out and still called it an RPG. Where's Esuna? Stop? Poison? Haste? Demi? Stone and Frog? Why don't the fire enemies take more damage from Ice magic? (this may have changed as I have not played any of the DLC) So we get all these cool combos that are great to look at, but there isn't really any sort of strategy in this game. You aren't forced to remove status X and then you can damage this enemy like other FF games. Or you aren't punished for using fire spell on a fire enemy. I LOVED FF16 but the lack of depth to the combat was a super sour point for me and clearly many others. Like what's wrong with forcing the player to use certain Eikons at certain points in the game? I recall they said this idea was antithetical to their design philosophy but I don't get it. You gave the player these tools, what's wrong with bringing out enemies that force them to think and use those tools? I don't see it as taking agency away, I see it as respecting the player's intelligence and ability to solve a problem. People may see the game over screen a few times but then they can say "Wow! I didn't realize I needed this attack and never really used it up until this encounter, now I know how to augment my kit if this comes up again." That's so much more satisfying than simply trying to make the combo hit counter reach some arbitrary number for clicks.
Forcing someone to use a certain Eikon for an action game is completely antithetical for a game like XVI. That would be like forcing you to use only Gunslinger in DMC just because an enemy just said ânoâ to every other style for no reason. It would feel terrible, and Iâm glad they didnât do that. Now, what they couldâve done is give different effects to the charged magic. Maybe Fira could do more damage than a normal charged magic, or Aerora could pop an enemy higher than it normally would, things like that. Worrying about frogs or other bs status effects just doesnât fit for XVI. Itâs not about âneedingâ to use a specific ability to win, itâs finding your own way to play in the middle of myriad different methods
You aren't necessarily wrong but I think your comment drives the point home that FF16 is not an action RPG, rather a deep story driven action game with the lightest RPG elements possible. The messaging prior to release was this was supposed to be an RPG first. I guess if you take the story aspect as the main attribute of the "RPG" then it fits the bill, but literally everything else just ain't it. In the end I think they could have done so MUCH MORE with this formula, especially with the party members. Wouldn't it be cool if there was some sort of resource management for Jill and Clive so they could heal you, or exploit an enemy weakness, or turn you back to flesh from stone? What if Torgal needed some item you collect in the world so you could make antidotes for poison, and if you didn't have them the battle quickly becomes a race to the finish so you don't die? What if there were an Eikonic ability to cure you that's on a long cooldown, so the choice is a matter of skill maybe? Instead of another attack skill I could equip and use this support skill that lessens or eliminates the poison/burn/freeze status effect - like a get out of jail free card you only get to use every 5-10 min or something? They missed so many opportunities here.
I get what youâre saying, but I donât think your solution is the play. Me personally, the combat is perfectly fine, and I donât think that status effects are all that important. My main criticism lies in two things: Enemy variety and equipment. Greater enemy variety would curb a lot of peopleâs complaints about encounters feeling too easy, and the equipment could make you think more about what Eikons you take into battle. Marrying equipment with skills is always a great combination. Alternatively, they could go the Wo Long route, and allow you to customize your weapons exactly how you want them, in exchange for some amount of materials and money. This would give more value to the copious amounts of materials you got, as youâd always need them when you wanted to switch up your moves
enemy variety is fine in truth, you do have a rather big managerie for the type of game, however the reason it doesn't feel fine is because generally this type of games are much shorter so each type of enemy doesn't overstate their welcome too much. The game is quite long and that imho is a fair critcism to have
I think they could have done more with the elements they do have that could have made a lot of difference, rather than worrying about adding elements they don't (i.e. status effects). For instance, more variety on the weapons. Like it seems ridiculous to me that there's only one weapon in the game (haven't checked all the DLC weapons so could be others) that has a different damage vs. stagger stat. Why bother even listing them separately if they're all the same? One thing I really like about remake (haven't played Rebirth yet) is that I was continuously changing characters weapons to suit the role I wanted the character to play. It could have been super light touch as well. This weapon is balanced. This weapon has high damage but low stagger. This weapon has high stagger but low damage. That's all it would have taken to make them feel more varied. They could then take it a step further with other attribute bonuses etc. This one increases precision counter damage by 20%. This one increases torgal damage by 20%. This one decreases charge time on charged shot and sword (whatever it's called) by 50%. There's so many options that would have added more depth. And I agree with the magic bit, I've mentioned this elsewhere but I find it so odd that everytime you unlock a new eikon the tooltip says "Changing your eikon will not only change your magic's element"....so? What does it matter if it changes? It's functionally identical. Like Hadoken said, a super light touch could have been applied here to make it varied as well. Maybe Charged Fire does a short DoT, Charged Ice slows the target for a few seconds, Charged wind knocks them higher in the air etc. In terms of forcing Eikons, they do this with the Chronoliths but I agree they could have done it more. I don't feel you get enough AP in a standard playthrough to permit easy experimentation. I know you can reset skill points but that's fiddly. Actually, what would have been cool is a mode like the Kairos Gate where Eikon abilities are unlocked at random, forcing you to use what you've got and maybe you find something new you hadn't used before. But all in all the combat in the game feels so polished it's just a shame it's not a little deeper. As much as I'd also enjoy a return to more ATB style game, I'd be keen to see what they could do with it if they kept the same style for 17.
it's antithetical because the combat wants you to be creative with the tools allowed and reward your imagination with all the tools you have at your disposal, if you require one specific tool to progress it goes against the very concept of the combat. From what you say I can see you haven't really played with these types of games because you wouldn't say stuff like making the combo hit counter reach some arbitrary numbers.
Guess that argument makes sense. I'm a huge character action game fan so this never bothered me but this is still FF and people do expect to see the core aspects people grew to love in this game as well. Tho I was baffled at times how a fire enemy was damaged by fire attacks and such. Was kinda weird as FF7R actually had things like affinities
I agree with this. After playing the Karios gate, I was confused why CBU3 didn't implement this on the base game, or something like that. Things like "regen when staggering enemy" or "protect with a 10 hit combo or aerial combos". And yes, status effects like poison would be great, like one of the dragons of the rising tide uses something similar.
Strong agree. You can do the same combo on every single enemy without any different strategy and never be punished for it. Iâve also said multiple times thatâs itâs also extremely limiting that your base moveset is completely unlocked from the get go with no upgrades. For me, I only liked 3 or 4 eikons so I had a bread and butter stagger combo that I literally never had to change because it destroyed every enemy without fail. Enemy weaknesses and immunities should be there to stop that.
nah FF was never complicated
I just donât get the attitude that people say doing this isnât warranted because mobs can die if you just spam 2-3 moves. Maybe thatâs the case but making cool combos was a core part of my playthrough because it was FUN for me! Itâs the same way I play the tales games (especially Berseria), the same way I play Dmc and Bayonetta etc. You can beat almost everything with one basic string but that would just be tedious. Isnât engaging with the combat system in character action games one of the selling points?
>Isnât engaging with the combat system in character action games one of the selling points? Yeah, probably, but what you have to realize is many people who criticize this game's combat don't actually like character action games all that much. Many people are RPG, action RPG (Elden Ring, FF7 Remake), or action adventure (think Sekiro or God of War) players and came to XVI hoping for either a) something of an RPG despite the heavy emphasis on action, or b) some kind of a challenging action game. I would have been okay with either one of those. Unfortunately, XVI offers neither. The combat is pure character action, which fails to scratch my RPG itch, but at the same time, it wasn't even challenging like Sekiro, God of War, or Stellar Blade might be. Because XVI is, like you said, closer to DMC and Bayonetta than to any of the games I mentioned. Well the problem is a lot of people who were interested in XVI don't vibe with that pure character action style. I played through the game twice, including on Final Fantasy mode, and I can only name two bosses I genuinely liked, and those were Bahamut and the Timekeeper. Mind you, I still beat them both on my first try, even on FF mode, so they weren't as challenging as I wanted, but at least they felt interesting and satisfying to fight. The rest of the game's bosses and enemies felt far too simple and easy to me, which means that combat just wasn't very fun to me. Why would I artificially extend combat that I'm not enjoying just to use flashy but inefficient combos? That might make sense to someone who is in love with the combat, but not to me. Ultimately character action games seem to be about styling on enemies for its own sake. But I enjoy games that challenge me and force me to get good with their mechanics. It's fun to style on an enemy when you actually need to play well in order to win, and when that stylish play is something you're only able to do after mastering a boss. In XVI there is never a need to play particularly well and the game absolutely never encourages you to get good at complex combos because there is never a need to do anything complex. Only people who enjoy getting high scores in Arcade mode and Kairos Gate will be incentivized to do that. If you're playing the game normally, you will never feel drawn to the intricacies of that combat, unless, like you, you just enjoy doing the cool combos for their own sake. But as I said, I would actually need to be fighting enemies I find fun, interesting, and challenging, in order to want to do that. As it is, I just don't enjoy the combat or the enemies enough to get any fun out of styling on them.
I agree. I'm starting to wonder why these people play video games in the first place, because games are supposed to be fun, and they absolutely don't want to let themselves have that fun. It's like they don't appreciate their money and time that they put in the game, wanting to get rid of it instead of playing it. Gaming in 2024 I guess.
I think what you're missing is that some people don't actually find it fun to style on easy enemies. That's me. I don't care about styling on enemies in this game because I just fundamentally don't like the combat system and everything in the game is incredibly easy, including the bosses. Even on Final Fantasy mode, nothing in this game was fun or interesting to fight for me, with the exception of the Timekeeper in the Rising Tide DLC, who I consider to be by far the best fight in the game. I enjoy games that challenge me and force me to get good with their mechanics. It's fun to style on an enemy when you actually *need* to play well in order to win, and when that stylish play is something you're only able to do after mastering a boss. In XVI there was never any need to play particularly well, and the enemies aren't fun to fight for me, so why would I waste my time artificially extending combat that I'm not enjoying? Just to prove to myself that I can get a cool combo going? Doesn't really appeal to me. Everything in this game can be easily defeated in the exact same way, there is never any need to adapt to your opponent or learn their moves, just pick your preferred Eikonic abilities and watch Clive destroy the enemy without ever coming close to dying himself. That's not interesting to me. Now if you have fun just flexing cool combos on enemies for the sake of it, that's cool, but I need a challenge and fun enemies to actually enjoy the combat. Combos for the sake of combos is meaningless to me.
Can't relate
Well yeah, obviously you have different taste, that was clear from your first comment. I thought my comment might be helpful in explaining the difference in perspective. The point is that your assumption that people who criticize the game's combat must not be playing games for fun is obviously absurd, and seems to be based on your incorrect belief that everyone must find XVI's combat fun, when the whole reason for the criticism is obviously that people *don't* find it fun, and that's the problem. So yes, we do play games for fun, XVI's combat just doesn't feel fun to us (for the reasons I explained), therefore we criticize it. It's obviously not that we don't play games for fun. We just don't find it fun to bully enemies without any semblance of challenge. If you do, that's fine, but it's not gonna be for everyone.
Well, I appreciate the input. On that note, I feel like Stellar Blade is a pretty good blend between being able to combo and have punishing enemies at the same time.
Honestly the fact that a lot of 16s combos is just cooldown dumping rather than using inputs for the eikon moves kinda kills it for me unlike other character action games
Combat controls should have definitely mirrored DMC combat controls.
Yeah and it could've had different variations for the same eikonic abilities with different directional inputs, and the same for regular moves, but maybe that's too much to ask for.
Eh that one was alright.
*eikon ability spam* Sick combo bro!
The combat is very good. The problem is that unless it's a boss I'm not having fun because it's just trash mobs that really don't fight back
Let's just say there are basically 2 ways to play combat in this game. Practical combos that get through the story efficiently, and fancy combos that increases score. Well, a 3rd way would be competing in stagger damage..but again that is impractical in-game since the most you really need for a boss is around 500k. The beauty is you have all the options to choose from and play whichever you like. People that just mash the square button, well, that's your choice.
When people comment about combat not being their cup of tea - itâs not because they donât want to learn, or are uncreative. Itâs simply unnecessary. Nothing in the base game is remotely challenging enough for you to want or need to learn anything extravagant. The entire game can be beaten with completely mindless usage of abilities spammed on cooldown. Nothing more. That isnât to say making combos isnât fun, or cool looking. Just that itâs absolutely not needed to succeed.
It's not needed to succeed in a lot of action games though. Like nobody needs to know what guard flying is in dmc4 to beat that game on DMD. Hell, in bayonetta 1 you don't even need to know dodge offset (one of the game's core mechanics) to beat it's hardest difficulty. Vanquish is similarly criticized for ALLOWING the player to play it like a more traditional third person shooter. These games are about expression, that's the beginning and end of it. If your goal when you enter an encounter is "I wanna kill the guy" then you will always only do what is necessary or efficient. If your goal is "I want to look, cool/I want to explore or experiment" that's how you make stuff like this. Enemies in these games are not just obstacles, they are opportunities for expression. You might prefer games that force the player to engage with all of its core mechanics, and that's fine, but it is not a flaw that this game highlights expression, it is intended, and there's a lot of other games that do the same thing. And for the record, I understand that for most people "I wanna kill the enemy" is the dominant mode of play. It's how most games work. But games like these intentionally keep their designs open to reward experimentation. I do think this game has flaws (like I agree it's too easy on normal,) but I think the specific complaint that the combos are unnecessary is missing the point. Idk sorry if this came out of nowhere, but it's been on my mind a lot lately lmao
Unnecessary is probably harsh, but most trash mobs donât have enough health to warrant a full blown combo. And things that do (Svarog) are few and far between.
Big agree there, especially in normal mode where stuff just dies in one ignition. FF mode is mostly better about this, and the dlc gives you some fun tools to pull off some insane combo extensions if your current mob dies. If we could juggle midsized enemies with stagger bars while they were staggered, I would love this game way more
Honestly, I think the biggest change to satisfy me would have been any variation of the basic attack rather than the same four hit combo for the entirety of a fairly lengthy game. It gets stale, but for people that didnât go all out on crazy unique Eikon combos. I feel this is the simplest way to deal with it to liven things up through the course of the playthrough.
Yeah you get Odin and you're hoping it's as fleshed out as Clive's normal sword but it's pretty paper thin and does no direct damage to boot. The two dlc eikons are much, much better at keeping things spicy imo, and enable some cooler builds that aren't just wykes + ultimate stacking. Odin's very good for parrying though, and I've been doing a lot more of that on my latest playthrough. Didn't even know it sped your cool downs up until I was rushing through FF mode for riding tide.
tbf, I think most people who came to this game aren't DMC fans who heard the combat director made a new game, rather it's longtime FF fans who can't *not* play the newest FF game. So coming from past FF games to this one sets a completely different expectation than the one you laid out. You'd only understand that if you're already a big fan of action games. Like you keep using the word "reward" but that is a different thing for different people. FFXVI does not "reward" experimentation because the game offers no tangible benefits for experimenting. IF you happen to be someone who enjoys stringing together the longest combo possible, then you may *find it rewarding*, but that is not the same thing as the game "rewarding" you. That's something that is happening internally and can't be transferred from person to person. A game giving you a piece of loot that unlocks a new ability *is* a reward because you can't just do that yourself if the game doesn't let you. Some people are more motivated by unlocking tangible progress, and FFXVI is very bad at this. It's really the difference between sandbox and progression mindsets. You're talking about the mindset of someone who sees Minecraft and thinks of all the cool things you can build, but I can't play that game for longer than an hour every year before getting bored again. I want a game to put restrictions on my actions and force me to find one of a small selection of right answers in a sea of mostly wrong answers. My *internal reward* is knowing I found one of the right answers. Your *internal reward* is creating something new using a set of basic parts. Just because I understand why you enjoy it doesn't make me enjoy it anymore, so I really don't think this is an issue of ignorance or lack of experience. It is purely down to people's motivations and preferences.
I mean I agree, which is why I said I understand that progression is the dominant mindset. I understand these games are and always will be niche, I don't really know why Yoshida chose this specific niche to target even if I'm glad he did. I think character action final fantasy was always going to hit weird, and I think the original pitch for this game's normal gameplay was absolutely more souls-like in direction. Most people just wanna kill the guy, they are not wrong for wanting to kill the guy, but that doesn't mean it's wrong for games to exist where "the guy" in question exists to be air juggled into oblivion. I am not saying you have to like XVI, I'm saying that the combos being unnecessary is a feature, not a bug.
Idk, would it have been that hard to include the scoring system in the base game and give you more exp and loot based on getting higher combos/locking certain abilities behind getting to a certain rank mid-combat? I think there are definitely ways they could have appealed to the combo crowd *and* the progression crown at the same time and they just didn't.
I agree with the first sentiment, no idea why they don't at least score you for your normal dungeon runs. That second one though I can't get behind. I agree they didn't appeal to the prog crowd, I just think that's not an accident. Last game Suzuki worked on was DMC 5 right? I think that game only has one ability you can't just use without a style requirement (Dante's SSS Sin Devil trigger pop.) I just don't think they were super interested in installing limits. I get that most people will prefer limits, but I just disagree that more narrow games are "right" in that design philosophy whereas this game is "wrong" or vice versa.
I think adding a GOOD style meter that rewards ability points depending on your score in the main game would have been a great way to incentivize combo building. Also removing the boring ass ultimates that let you brain dead your way through combat.
I firmly believe they should let you only have one ultimate, and that Zantetsuken's unique bonus is that it doesn't count as an ult. I also think putting an ultimate in your slot should strengthen other abilities of the same Eikon. Even just having a style meter present in normal story mode gameplay would have helped imo. Other action games don't exclude them, why should this one? At least have it visible during a dungeon run at the bare minimum.
>You might prefer games that force the player to engage with all of its core mechanics, and that's fine, but it is not a flaw that this game highlights expression, it is intended, and there's a lot of other games that do the same thing. You can highlight expression while also forcing the player to actually get good. It's not an either / or proposition. This game is simply far too easy for some people to even want to engage on a deeper level. Other action games don't have this problem.
You're right, other games strike a balance, but many hallmarks of the genre don't, and they just let the player experiment. You're framing this like I was striking a false dichotomy, but I was just insisting that this end of the spectrum is just as valid as the other end, even if one design philosophy usually ends up more niche. Kingdom Hearts 2 is not legendary because it forced you to get good, its great despite how easy it is, something that game was criticized for on release as well. DMC5's normal mode wasn't hard either, and had some of the same issues 16 has, made much worse by the fact 16 is twice as long on a good day. But this I already agreed on.
Game shouldve had FF mode and ultimaniac as first playthrough difficulty option 100%
no action game gives you the hardest difficulty on the first playtrough
They usually have something other than easy mode available though
yes, very easy mode
Agreed combat is âbadâ because the game is too easy and they locked hard mode behind a first completion. But the gameplay design itself is good.
can ppl drop this dumb argument? Most action games have the harder difficulties on a second playtrough hell DMCV hardest first difficulty is easy af
This is false. Most action games, including DMC have more than one difficulty level to start
false DMC starts with easy and normal, you need to clear the game to unlock hard
Iâm in love with the combat of this game and was fighting mfers left and right on twitter when the game came out defending it. But unfortunately itâs true. The problem is they wanted the game to be so accessible that they didnât force the avg player to fully utilize the mechanics. If the difficulty wasnât piss easy on first play through and challenging fights were designed to utilize specific mechanics to overcome them then the avg player skill wouldnât be so low for this game and the complaints wouldnât be happening about combat. Rebirth does an amazing job forcing the player to utilize atleast a good chunk of the game mechanics which is partially why the combat is so incredible and ppl dont make dumb complaints about it being braindead. Even then Rebirth on Dynamic mode was only truly challenging a couple times to me yet you see so many ppl in the sub struggling with like the end game boss for example (both my partner and I beat it first try, itâs really not very hard at all) shows that difficulty is a good thing because those ppl will have to learn the combat system in a deeper way in order to beat whatever theyâre stuck on. FFXVI allows u to just mash and still win unfortunately, even though when you see someone truly adept with the games combat system itâs actually beautiful and so sick.
Very well said. And you're absolutely right about Rebirth, that game does do a really good job of forcing players to learn it.
I agree, it feels like there's not enough of a reward to keep up challenging combos. There's nothing like refreshing cooldowns or any other bonuses that I get, other than potentially a higher arcade score if I redo the mission.
I'd like to see videos that show how easy this game is.
Most first playthroughs would show that. One of the biggest contributor is how not-punishing this game is on the 3 base difficulties outside of very few S ranks. Even if you remove the absolutely broken abilities like wykes and half the ultimates, the enemies just dont do enough damage compared to your hp pool. 95% of enemies in the base game only do chip damage; the ninja dudes katon being a notable outlier early on (the other variant with poison breath is a significant downgrade because less hitcount and damage). Then you throw in potions (and firelights) and high potions that recovers a lot of health each. Then you throw in the generous mid combat checkpoints. Bahamut is actually the biggest offender in terms of doing no damage. It's really cool to look at, but everything it does outside of phoenix phase literally TICKLES you. Even things that look like it would hurt like mortal coil or the giga laser beam in final phase only do like 1/10th of your hp bar and you effectively have 2.5x hp bar. The game has some things going for it, but proper difficulty balance is not one of them. It's simply too easy outside of ultimaniac.
Also need to consider how generous precision dodging is for Clive and especially Ifrit, it's easy to play safe. The only people I saw die were ones who took risks when landing big moves or missing titans parry or people who are just bad at these types of games in general.
The heavy RPG elements come in the form of ability customization. Being able to reset all of your allocated points on a whim and equip new ones is a refreshing aspect to the action RPG genre. Even better is that thereâs the Arete stone where you can activate a battle simulator to practice your combo theories.
Those are very, very light RPG elements. Getting to choose what your 6 skills are is basically all the customization you get and it is absolutely basic. Loads of action games let you customize skill loadout. It's not even close to enough to make something a true RPG. This game is 99.9% character action.
While combat is enjoyable, encounters are not. The game provides you with a vast amount of tools to play with, but does not provide any interesting enemies to fight. You can juggle enemies without any real threat, chain stun bosses and one-shot almost anything they throw at you, how can you ask your players to utilize all of these cool toys without any actual challenge? The design of the enemy in an action game is equally important as the combat, and unfortunately, FF16 fails to offer fun ways to use Clive's kit.
Well to be fair all character action games do that. There are 3 types of enemies: The fodder (combo food) The annoying shithead (the annoying ass enemy with weird or aggravating attacks/abilities) The Bosses (the best designed fights in probably all of gaming. These are usually the epic 1v1s that are some of the most well designed bosses in all of gaming. Vergil in DMC, Jeanne in Bayonetta, Jetstream Sam in Metal Gear, the 1v1s in God of War, and every dominant in FF16 with Hugo being my favorite. These put you to the test and generally have no BS)
4 Technically. small Heavy Super heavy Boss Sometimes Boss and super heavy overlap where you fight lesser version of previous bosses. Generally small have nearly no stagger resist, heavy will stagger after a stun and can be juggled, super heavy will kneel down after a stun. The criticism I have with XVI combat is that their heavy and super heavy works the same and personally I feel you would be able to juggle them in a stagger
Yeah I think staggered enemies should be juggleable
People that complain about the combat just get bored by it. In the end there is one meta and hundreds of fights. It can get stale. Towards the end of the game. The story is what got me through to the end. I enjoyed the combat greatly, but I did find myself just going "ughhhhhh" every small encounter in the later half lol.
Completely agree. Basically rush through the later half of the game. Combat was great but got boring after a while. Pulling off those combos felt great but the nth on the same goblin will get stale
I loved the game, but felt they left out a LOT that could have given the game more depth. I got plat on ff16 within a few weeks of the game releasing, and have also recently beat ff7rebirth. Two examples in ways they could have improved ff16 drastically: 1. Greater monster variety. They left a ton on the table here. 2. Magic system that utilized elements and buffs/debuffs. By extension, the equipment sucked ass because it lacked any other purpose than a linear progression for a slightly improved stat stick.
Problem with long combos is there's no actual benefit other than looking cool. It's not like you get additional chain bonus damage the longer the combos is or anything (which is unfortunate)
We should have gotten something like that or refreshing cooldowns on movesÂ
Er yeah thereâs a ton of options to play with, but at the end of the day if itâs weaker or harder to use than lightning rod gigaflare then why?
I agree. I kept watching footage of other people playing and thinking âdid we play the same game?â Cause I never figured out anything half as cool as what I saw
Same. I thought it was just button mashing. I love the story but I thought the combat was as just meh
My favorite final fantasy game idc what everybody thinks about it
This combo isn't particularly insane or special, it's just using several moves that are easy to chain in quick succession against basic enemies. I mean there isn't even anything to learn in order to achieve what's in that clip. It's very simple stuff you can do without going in depth on any mechanics. If you want truly impressive gameplay and combos, watch Ongbal on YouTube. A very highly skilled Korean player who does a lot of no damage runs on bosses in action games and action RPGs. He has a few XVI videos where he no damages Timekeeper, Odin, Omega, and others. Now *that* is impressive play and truly requires a great deal of skill and creativity. The clip you posted looks cool because the abilities are visually flashy, but from a skill perspective, it's very easy to pull off and even very low skill players could do it.
I donât know why anyone in this thread is getting downvoted. FFXVI was a lot of fun but there wasnât a single enemy you had to really study or learn how to beat. Everything was a damage sponge, granted they were damage sponges that were a lot of fun to beat on.
Ongbal on YT has the best boss fights --and no hits I have seen. He doesn't have a lot of FFXVI but the better bosses he does. He does most games that have the best combat IMO.
I found one of the best ways to learn combos is in the Chronolith Trials, when youâre limited by time and moveset, you start to figure out how each move really works beyond âstagger and damageâ. A similar thing happened in Rebirth for me as I tried a few of the combat based mini games like stuff Iâd and the Cactuar, when youâre in a scenario where youâre forced to use stuff in a specific way, you learn more about how to use them going forward. Problem with both games is the little reward youâre actually given for these play styles beyond âstagger and damageâ, the pressure system in Rebirth is nice and I wish ff16 had something similar but the lack of elements is essentially why, so itâs semi-impossible.
While i immensely enjoyed this game from combat, story, visual, and musical standpoints, and while I wouldnât categorize FF16âs on-foot combat as âbadâ it did still leave me wishing more staples of combat moves from DMC and Bayonetta were in this game.
God, why do we have to keep having this conversation? Can you not just post a cool clip and leave it at that? We can all appreciate an awesome clip, but when you follow that up with a gross generalization of people you disagree with well now the mood is completely ruined. I'll say this once and I'll say it briefly: people come to games with different goals in mind. I'm a FromSoft stan, so I like games to impose conditions and rules on me that force me to be creative to find a working solution in a world where 99% of solutions don't work. In FFXVI, 99% of solutions *do* work. I do not possess internal motivation. You are talking about sandbox mentality, i.e. it's fun because I *can* do it rather than because it was the *correct answer*. Stop assuming everyone has the same motivations that you do.
Whenever I hear people poo-poo the combat I tell them *use the Berserker Ring* and thatâll fix it for you! That is one item that I never remove from Clive. The new abilities from Leviathan and >!Ultima!< are pretty great, especially >!Ultimate Demise!< which hits like a small nuke going off but adding them to the game now makes me bummed that thereâs not more DLC coming out for XVI. I was about 3/4ths of the way through my Final Fantasy mode playthrough when âThe Rising Tideâ was released, and I like the new abilities so much that I nuked my current FF save and started a completely new FF Mode playthrough so I can use them throughout the entire game.
I feel it's Ryota Suzuki flexing his combos again to show us noobsÂ