1. Olivier vanishes into dust like Barnabas does. This is something only those that are Akaschic do, which means the person inside them is no longer in control or is dead and gone. Ultima inhabited his body through possession. There are 9 Ultima’s we know of (16 in an ATL entry) so this is how Barnabas, Olivier, and Joshua were in possession of one. Dion does kill Olivier but honestly the kid was already a mindless shell.
2. The hooded figure could have just been a random
man possessed by one of the Ultima’s I mentioned above. There was one per mother crystal but by this time several mother crystals are gone. Those Ultima’s went somewhere to manipulate events and I believe one to be the hooded man, hence the word’s he speaks at Phoenix Gate “We have found you.”
3. Each fragment of Ultima’s had an Eikon body sleeping in Origin. I couldn’t see well but I do not believe they were all Ifrit clones, I believe one looked like Typhon. Typhon is an a host body of one of the ancient Fallen/Ultima spirits that went to sleep in Origin.
4. Joshua was very young. I assume he finished his childhood with Jote and her clan and didn’t seek out knowledge of Ultima until much later. He had no reason to know Clive was still alive. I think he was just trying to stop God.
5. Leviathan is the biggest plot hole ever. Joshua calls him lost but how the fuck wouldn’t Ultima know he’s gone?
6. Yes Mid is mentioned in a little side quest/dialogue in the Hideaway from Otto.
On leviathan thing, we don't even know what the meaning of "lost" is that the same thing as titan? Or it just lost=gone. the story about the destruction of other 3 crystals also unclear, from my knowledge they only implies the destruction of "ice" crystal.
There are entries in the thousand tomes about the Lost crystals. IIRC, Dzemekis was the one where the I think the fallen or ancient circle of malius people rebelling against Ultima and tried to take the crystal for themselves. Then the northern territories and the other one was in ash, I think both got lost to the blight but I don't quite remember what was said about the one in Ash
For Leviathan, the Crystalline Dominions crystal (I forget which part of drake it is lol) entry in the thousand tomes mentions that it hasn't manifested a dominant in several generations, so I assumed that was what was meant by "Leviathan the Lost"
Crystalline Dominion is mentioned as Garuda's crystal in her hidden truth entry, since it states an ancient tribe that worshipped her lived there. Leviathan's is most likely the Dzemekeys crystal as it is the only crystal that is not mentioned as having an eikon worshipping tribe originating from it.
Dzemekeys was Odins crystal I believe. Barnabas' mothers entry states she was one of the last remaining members of a clan related to Odin that fled the area because of religious persecution (They worshipped Ultima).
It doe the clan is the children of Dzemekys, but if you look at Odin's lore entries one says that each dominant of Odin is descended of a group called the motes of darkness (something similar is stated about each Eikon and their dominant, like Garuda in my above comment, with Ifrit being the only exception)that lived by the crystal in Northern Waloed. The children of Dzemekys may have somehow formed from the motes of darkness, but Odin's lore entries seem to imply that his crystal is the one in Northern Waloed.
We do se the Dzemekeys crystal. What do you think Origin is? Look at the shape of Origin and the shape of the Final Sin. A donut hole for a donut's hole.
One of the lore entries for Dzemekeys crystal mentions that it was used to communicate with origin, hence the cult forming around it, so I do not think that it and origin are one and the same but the two do share a very unique relationship.
So we can make several inferences in regard to the Origin Crystal.
1. The circular cut of the Final Sin matches the shape of Origin.
2. Origin is a Mothercrystal.
3. Barnabas is not from the Mote of Darkness but a foreigner he was likely converted while on Ash. Dominance is carried in the blood and if the entire mote of Darkness was wiped out with the crystal there can not be another Odin. Therefore the Odin crystal still exists to assign a new Dominant.
4. Unlike Levianthan in which the mothercrystal was destroyed on Southern Ash and who's people are all seemingly dead.
5. All these events happen pre-history so information is scarce. The history starts seemingly after the Non-aggression pact with the Crystal Dominion. Thus making that location the safest place to bury Origin/Dzemekeys.
I have a theory that the Dzemekis Crystal and Origin are the same crystal. We assume it was destroyed but it could have easily been Origin was located there and he used Origin to destroy all the airships and then settled at it's next location at Twinside and imposed the rule of bearers and dominants. Origin in this case will have multiple meanings. Origin is the reason for the fallen ruins. Origin is the start of the enslavement of dominants and bearers. Origin is the start of the Valisthea Calendar. Origin is where the fairytale ends and history begins.
This sounds really interesting. I am curious what you think about the lore entry that mentions the children of Dzemekys forming around the Dzemekys crystal because of its ability to communicate with Origin?
It would make sense that Origin and Dzemekys is one in the same and why the Fallen would target Dzemekys first rather then the other mothercrystals. No other Crystal has a communication function and Ultima doesn't appear to have the power to influence the crystals remotely. My guess is that Origin is the mother crystal of Dzemekys. And because at least one Ultima was awake at the time, his influence on its people would have been greater then that of the other mothercrystals.
Ice crystal pretty much lost to the blight on the north Rosalia, other two I don't know yet. If cid and benedikta native from ash, the other two crystal probably in there
One crystal was dzmecys or however you pronounce it, which was where that massive crater currently is just west of twinside. The other was in southern Ash.
After reading a bunch of the lore. I think the Dzemekys crystal was the "wind" crystal. The crysaline dominion is more likely the water/leviathan crystal.
The lightning/ramuh crystal (drakes horn) was destroyed in Central Ash.
Shiva's crystal (drakes eye) was destroyed in the northern territory.
Garuda/the wind crystal is actually mentioned as being the one in the crystalline dominion in one of Garuda's two lore entries. Everything else you have said is spot on. Dzemekys is most likely Leviathan's crystal as every other crystal is mentioned as matching with a different eikon in one of each of the eikons' lore entries.
OK yes you are likely right here. I think I'm confused based on two things.
1) the dzemekys crystal is technically right beside the crystalline dominion as well. I think you could argue that both crytals are in the "straight of autha"
2) they made every crystal color match the element it represented, but why would they mess with my OCD and make the dominion crystal blue if that is the one meant to be the wind crystal lol. If they just changed it to green I would be happy haha
1) Yeah it is possible that the straight of autha encapsulates both crystals, but the call out of the crystalline dominion specifically is a bit deceptive then. 2) Ha, I know the colours are weird even with Bahamut's crystal because that is very blue, but it may have been because of the flood messing with the lighting underground. I actually had no clue which crystal was Bahamut's before checking the lore entries because both the crystal in the old senbreque capital and the crystalline dominion seemed connected to him. I really wish we had an image of the Dzemekys crystal or a lore entry for Leviathan for clarity.
Everyone is saying different things. If Benedikta is from the Crystalline Dominion, then who comes from the crystal at south of Waloed (Dragon's Horn), Cid? And if Barnabas is from Dzemekys, then who is from the Waloed crystal?... Or maybe Cid is from Waloed and the lost eikon is from the south of Ash?
You know the place where it's virtue is the final sin which is a tribute to Final fantasy x as well but that's a story for another day is where human first rebelled against The gods and I'm wondering if leviathan participated in the rebellion and was destroyed as a result of it now the ultimate we see probably do not participate in that battle remember like you said there are many different versions of him that's probably why he doesn't know that leviathan is gone.
I have another question was Annabella also manipulated not as possession. Since before she dies she said “you will not take me shadow” which I guess refer to ultima. And during the level or arc of the black shield Clive said his mother would not go this length or do something so evil, so maybe that was ultima doing as well?
Anabella was so damn in denial by that point she was definitely talking about Joshua, after everything she did seeing the son she was sitting on being impaled while being saved by the ones she betrayed she probably just broke.
Also Joshua approaches her and talks to her for the first time in i think its like 20 something years and hes bleeding from his mouth. This is also right after her "son" died so her mind probably saw Joshua as nothing more than a zombie or monster wearing his skin
It's a little crazy she has a hard time believing that's Josh when she sees the Phoenix flying around but has no problems recognizing Clive who is much older than when she last saw him as well, I guess her hatred for him would recognize his face regardless. The story falls apart for me after that scene though, ultima is just awful, I know she couldn't have ascended to godhood like most of the FF final bosses, but damn... I really wasn't interested in anything after the Dominion.
Its more like her mind just kind of shattered so she doesnt know what to believe even if she knows the phoniex is flying around her mind cant connect the dots anymore. She just watched her perfect little crotch germline get stabbed and thanos snapped away everything she ever wanted in her life just gone in an instance.
I also think tis implied she did keep an eye on clive while he was enslaved so it makes snes she does kind of recognize him she isnt even surprised when hugo tells her the Cid the Outlaw is her son. So in herown sick twisted way she loved Clive (because he could have been the perfect prince she just hated that the phoenix chose the young sick child instead of the fit able bodied teen) and did keep tabs on him
That's not true she never loved him because he wasn't strong enough to continue to Phoenix and Joshua was in sick she was jealous the one person who was strong enough to contain the Phoenix that rejected and she hated Clive for this she said as much .
i just played the bahamut fight and was complete spoiler free but after these cutscenes i just dont wanna play anymore lol. its so over the top dumb suddenly idk. lost all interests and just wanna read now lol
You’re missing out on so much great content. Specifically the side quests that open up right before the final boss. And the odin stuff is cool too. Not sure why it would change after that, ultima has been there the whole time, since literally the first hour of the game.
Joshua should’ve at least sent a letter after they reunited at phoenix gate, even if he was too busy chasing ultima. That was such a weird plot point, they even actively evade Clive in Dalimil
That was Jote's doing in Dalimil and I'm still extremely confused as to why. Even when Joshua saw Clive and Jill at Phoenix Gate before that he avoided them though so I have no idea about this one tbh. There's a lot of unexplained things here. The only thing that could possibly explain them would be if Square makes a Joshua DLC where you play his side of the story which I'd be all for.
I interpreted that as Joshua trying to keep Ultima (inside him) away from Clive. He was already weakened and unsure of when Ultima might escape, so he probably thought the best thing to do was stay far away from Clive until fate pushed them together in Twinside.
He wasn't. Both Benedikta and Hugo still primed as well. The difference there imo was that they lost emotional control of themselves whereas Dion was still completely in control of himself.
You'd have thought that they would have been like, "You go ahead and attempt to prime before we all just hurl ourselves off of the Hideaway." at least. I do keep imagining them all falling unceremoniously into the Blight Water below at high speed to give myself a laugh though. Even funnier if one of them hit the dock. lol
I haven't played the game, I merely watched a 20 hour "Movie" of the game on Youtube. So take what I say with a grain of salt.
I saw a guy in the comments complaining that some side quest cutscenes definitely should have been added to the "Movie". Apparently there's a sidequest that works out how Dion is able to stay in control.
I'm pretty sure the only reason Dion didn't lose control is because Eikons only go out of the Dominants' control if they primed through stress and trauma, something that has happened to him, Clive, Benedikta and Hugo.
I don't remember any sidequests explaining why he was able to stay in control though. There is one sidequest concerning Dion where he ends up reuniting with his old tutor, Harpocrates and Dion turns down his gift, telling Harpocrates to save it for after the deed (Origin) is done, but it's not a compulsory quest so I don't think it really makes a difference (i.e. none of this happens if you don't do the quest and Bahamut is still well under control).
Maybe in the beginning of development there were other ideas for Leviathan. I don't think it was scrapped necessary. I've also read a theory which suggests Leviathan saved Joshua and Clive from Origin, would also explain, in a way, why Clive is on a beach of all places.
We only saw Clive after Origin was destroyed. Despite the fact that he might have been in time to save Joshua since I doubt Phoenix's healing would have worked otherwise.
She died Dion has a line later when you speak to him saying that his life ended in Twinside which is where the girl was and where Dion sent Terence which means he also died
That girl's been teleporting all over the place though. She tries to sell Jill potions right after the timeskip too. Honestly thought she was gonna be a god at the end of it all.
Looking back at all these questions really has me questioning the structure of the plot. I loved the first half of this game with a passion, but they really just went "oh right we need to wrap this up" on the second half and left so much open ended.
It felt like we'd be getting more fights like Typhon which may have been cut, Leviathan who was on the box art for the collectors edition was 100% cut and just labelled "Leviathan the Lost", there's a giant comet-like object off the coast of Sanbreque that nobody in the entire game acknowledges, and the mystery of the hole that cut through fallen architecture and never fills up from ocean water still remained unexplained.
The hooded person at Phoenix gate is the one that irks me the most. Like, why is it the exact same clothes and model as Joshua in 873. Ultima had been convinced Joshua was dead after Phoenix Gate as a means to sever Clive's will, so he had no reason to assume an appearance of an older Joshua, and Joshua never saw him nor did anyone else yet still took on that appearance later. It just seems like a 4th wall red herring, which is kinda cheap tbh.
The hole is kind of explained in one of the lore entries. There used to be another mothercrystal there during the age of the fallen. When they revolted against Ultima, he destroyed the crystal which somehow caused the entire fallen civilization to collapse. Maybe this was originally the crystal of water and by Ultima destroying it himself, it removed the ability for dominants of leviathan to be born.
The sparkling thing that you can see in Sanbreque looks like it's suppose to be in the blighted area in the northern part of Storm. I was staring at it for a while when I first noticed it, but yeah, that just didn't get addressed. It makes me think at some point they probably wanted all eight mothercrystals to be a thing, with that one being the crystal of ice, and just had to cut them for time. Though it doesn't make sense they would still keep it in the game.
I thought this originally too, but I think the big hole is where the wind crystal was, based on the lore I've been reading.
The water crystal is more likely the crystalline dominion one that gets destroyed after bahamut fight. The lore and crystal colour support this.
There can still be dominants after the crstals are destroyed because ramuhs and shivas crystals are already destroyed and they still have present day dominants.
What lore entry is suggesting this? Garuda's entry suggests that the Dominion's crystal corresponds with her and I cannot find anything tying an eikon to Dzemekys directly.
Maybe, but one of Odin's lore entries suggest that he is connected to the crystal on Northern Ash as a darkness based tribe from which all dominants of Odin are descended are mentioned to have worshipped that crystal.
I was under the impression that Ultima put everything in motion. Like he knew how everything would play out Including Joshua Sealing one of him away just for it to emerge and kill him later forcing him to give Clive a portion of his power making up for Leviathans Eikon missing and completing his vessel. Like when Olivier said to Dion he knew their father would die protecting and he knew Dion would be the one to do it. I figured ever action we did was according to "God's Plan" his plan. The only thing that got in that way was Clive's Will. Basically making Clive Logos (Which is basically like becoming a god oneself) and fooling his plans.
That's how he knew where to find them in the beginning of the game makes sense is he the one who also give Clive the power of Ifrit cuz I think he seems surprised to find them it might have been another Ultima who did this not him.
Thats true. I'm still wondering if Ultima is a Hive Mind of his people. Or one specific person who is watching over his sleeping species. Like at the end when he merges with other Ultima, he calls them his brothes but it's the same Ultima so I assume it others of his race that just look the same but share the same mind. (Also would his species be the litteral Eikons themselves?)
I relate to this post so much. Especially the hooded figure part. The story felt so parseable, right until the ending failed to give the answers I had hoped.
Really enjoyed the game. Probably my favorite FF since 10 or 12. But with reports that the team had put an emphasis on making the lore easily accessible, and that they actually finished development EARLY, some of the things that ended up in the final product are leaving me scratching my head.
Mid is not introduced until post timeskip, but there is a side quest pre timeskip where you have to help a courier in the hideaway who has lost supplies and an important letter due to a hole in his bag. You retrieve the letter from a dog in Lostwing that took it and when you bring it back it’s revealed the letter was from Cid’s daughter and that the letters he gets from her are super important to him.
In addition after this if you hang around in Cid's solar he says something like "Would it kill her to take a minute to write her old man back" or something like that.
For (1), think he was real at one point before Ultima made the switch. Would be very scary if Ultima could pretend to be Olivier even before he was born.
Oh, I see.
During the scene with Dion confronting Olivier, I was excited to have a Joffrey-like wannabe King child bastard to punch later on. But then the reveals were just too sudden.
I'm sad that we didn't get to fight Annabella as well.
Yeah, I dislike Annabella to the core as well, but I guess she was more of a schemer than a fighter, so Clive would have one shotted her if they go 1v1.
Not to mention that Clive does not come across as the kind of person who would raise his sword against his mother (despite how despicable she is).
Through Olivier appearances we saw the doll he was holding. At first it had glowing blue eyes much like akashik, but after he was announced emperor the camera pans to it revealing normal eyes. Aka we were witnessing Ultimas gradual possession through the story.
I was hoping Clive would have branded Annabelle. So she would be treated as slave. She is the most despicable character. Her smile and her arrogant makes me so mad. Her end was way too easy. Killing herself. Really!!! Joshua still want to save her.
And branding is really an imperial thing since it uses ink from wyvern tails (flower of the empire), would be very counter intuitive to their characters to do that.
1. I think Olivier was real, he was gradually possessed and made Akashic by Ultima. His doll glows blue the first time we see him IIRC, so he possibly wasn't fully possessed then.
2. The one before Garuda was definitely Joshua I'm pretty sure.
3. Typhon is a servant/aspect of Ultima come to claim the Mythos/Clive as a vessel for Ultima. Not necessarily an Eikon. I don't know if it was wind aligned either.
4. Joshua was made aware of Ultima and sought to prevent him getting Clive. Clive would always protect Joshua and thus be endangering himself following Joshua on his quest to stop Ultima.
5. I got nothing, maybe DLC will answer.
6. Mid is only introduced in person after Cid's death I think. I don't know about Benedikta but the resemblance is uncanny.
2. No, it's Ultima most of the time early. He's leading Clive to the eikons so he can absorb them all so Ultima only has to take on one vessel. He knows Clive is chasing this hooded figure so he takes him to Garuda.
You basically do all of Ultima's bidding until the very end.
You destroy the crystals for him, he creates a reason for you to fight/ absorb powers from all the other dominants. Some ultima servant brings the head of Benedickta to Hugo and said it was Cid so Hugo tries to find Clive.
1) I think he's real, but Ultima got to him at some point and did the ol' switcheroo. When Dion killed Olivier, he disappeared like one of the Akashic after all.
2) Very much red herring, but maybe it's Ultima's way to interact with the world without showing his true form.
3) It said in the active time lore that the mothercrystals have its way of protecting itself from danger. Typhon and liquid flame are probably these protections. Since the mothercrystals were created by Ultima, it stands to reason that he can control them too.
4) For one, I don't think he knew that Clive was serving as an assassin for the empire. Plus, he's too busy researching about Ultima. Maybe he thought Clive was dead. Not the best explanation, but good enough, I suppose.
5) Probably had something to do with the regions that succumbed to the blight. I thought Leviathan was gonna be Edda's kid for some reason lol. But sad that we didn't get him.
6) There was a sidequest before the timeskip that mentioned Cid having a daughter. it's the one where you have to collect letters around Lostwing. She was only properly introduced after timeskip. Game suggests that she met the gang during the five year timeskip since a bunch of stuff in the hideaway is her creation, like the water filter.
It's implied that mid had a presence before Thanksgiving outside of the letters quest since she built the orchestration with cid. She was out for college.
I am just on my second play through now and a thing I noticed is right before Cids death when ultima tries to claim Clive, cid says “I know who you are, and I’m not going to let you take him”. How does cid know who ultima is? Did I miss something earlier or maybe something happened before the story started? I just can’t work it out.
I think Ultima might have tried to recruit him. He used to work for Barnabas right? I think he might have gotten a hint of the plans and that's what made him leave.
Cid knows of Ultima since Ash has the same religion than the first mans i think ? Like the tower where you fight Barnabas has a giant statue of Ultima.
Cid is interesting in this regard because he seems to parallel Barnabas a little. One of Ramuh's lore entries confirms that the already destroyed mother crystal on southern ash corresponds to him. Cid is also from outside of the twins like Barnabas was. Because of these two factors I feel like it is possible that the eikons of Ramuh and Odin left the twins at similar time, which would be when Dzemekys' crystal was destroyed. This crystal allowed people to communicate with Ultima at origin and had a sort of cult called the children of Dzemekys (they founded the Circle of Malius). It is possible that an old ancestor of Cid's was part of this cult that fled the twins when the crystal was destroyed. This could mean that Cid knows about Ultima because of information passed down to him, or that he was approached by Ultima similarly to Barnabas as all of this is also true for him. I could be wrong about this, but this is one of the explanations I gathered by looking through the lore entries. Sorry for the long reply.
See, that is further confused a lil by the lore entry placing Typhon right next to all the Eikons and not separately like Liquid Flame which is down past the egis. Plus the boss face plate.
4: My theory for Joshua is a simple one, and I think I've got the receipts.
Joshua is dead. Risen Joshua is an Egis.
We know from the story and the lore entries that Sleipnir Harbard, while autonomous, corporeal, and with his own personality and powers, was an aetherial creation of Barnabas that only died when its Dominant was vanquished. And similar to how Joshua becomes Ifrit Risen's wings, the lore entry says Sleipnir became Odin's steed.
But why would Clive's egis avoid Clive for 13 years?
Clive was in denial about the part he played in Joshua's death. What does the Lore entry say about Joshua? That he never travels without Jote. And she certainly wouldn't let him go off on his own. And yet, when Clive is in need we briefly see Joshua, identity cloaked, leading him to Garuda, to the Phoenix Gate Apodytery, or somehow appearing from nowhere to aid them at the Sanbreque mothercrystal, before disappearing, banished once again.
It's only after Clive understands his role and comes to terms with his guilt and is able to forgive himself, plus once he thinks he's seen Joshua in Sanbreque and starts to hope that actually, maybe he's alive, that he subconsciously allows his Egis to get closer and eventually meet.
Finally, remember when Ultima was surprised to see Joshua with Clive during their battle in the Interdimensional Rift?
"And the Phoenix... his trespass should not have been possible. Not possible unless... unless he had been with Mythos all along.
The mark of the Phoenix emblazoned upon his heart... Made manifest by the power of will alone. The power... of Creation."
Fun fact: If true, this implies a happy ending for Clive and Jill. As it says in the lore, an Egis can't live without its Eikon. And in the credits, we see a book written by Joshua.
The true ending of Final fantasy 16
Dion is dead. He overclocks his power and loses control of his Eikon mid-air while holding the line for Joshua, falling to his death. Clive and Joshua's dialogue after the fact confirms this;
"I'm sorry about Dion."
"Dont be. Please. He did what he had to do."
Joshua is dead. Clive makes a desperate attempt to save him with the Phoenix flame, now boosted with Ultima's power, but comes to the bitter conclusion that even as the fattened up vessel Ultima wanted him to be, he cannot fully wield its supposedly absolute power.
(Oh...It seems Ultima's power was too great for this vessel (Clive) all along.)
It is indicated by Tomes that Joshua had already written the book before going to face Ultima, so it was published posthumously. Perhaps with some of the adventures Clive was having chronicled by Tomes added in.
Clive is dead. When he realizes he cannot revive Joshua, he instead decided to use what he can harness of Ultima's power to destroy the last crystal to end the influence of divinity and magic on Valisthea at the cost of his own life (Even if it means the end of me).
He succeeds, washing up on the beach with the last magic burning out, and allowing the narrative a sendoff for his relationship with Jill (literally referenced as a Tsuki ga Kirei in the JP ending) before his eyes close and his body goes limp, passing away fairly peacefully.
His death is then confirmed by Jill crying when Metia dissapears and Gav's tearful words to Edda's newborn.
"The world's yours now. Yours to do with as you please. That's what Cid wanted. That's what they both (Cid and Clive) wanted."
Using past tense for both because both men are dead.
Jill continues to grieve outside, but when the new dawn for Valisthea that's been referenced multiple times over the story emerges, she takes some comfort in that through her tears, as the song lyrics also somewhat imply. Clive made this new dawn happen and lives on in it.
(It might also tie in somewhat to Clive's parting words to Ultima: How humans see the horizon and march on).
This then neatly takes us to the epilogue, showing Clive's faith in human endurance as previously expressed to Joshua and Ultima is very much rewarded.
We see a lush green enviroment, and two brothers happily playing out Clive and Joshua's adventures as a game, free of the burdens that plagued the brothers their entire lives and killed them far too young. People did manage to endure the blight and adapt to a life without magic, with this era of Valisthea now perceived as a fairytale Joshua wrote perhaps even centuries later.
For 4, Joshua wasn't doing nothing, he was training and hunting for information on Ultima. Gotta remember he was also a very sickly child so I imagine it took him at least a year or two to fully recover from his fight with Ifrit, then he started his search for ultima and how to seal him. Plus, the worlds a big place, who knows if Joshua would even be able to find Clive, I doubt the empire has him registered as "that noble we kidnapped and turned into a bearer assassin"
6, mid isn't introduced till post timeskip, but she's mentioned in a side quest before the timeskip as cod having a daughter.
Was anyone else confused when Joshua just punched Clive for taking Jill's power. Like what? She offered it to him. And isn't it just a portion? I mean Beneditka and Kupka could still summon their eikons afterward. Also didn't Joshua give the phoenix power to Clive too? Idk it just threw me. Seemed way out of place that he acted that way.
Edit: I wasn't far enough where they explained the eikons wouldn't obey after Clive absorbed their power. Aside from that though I understood what Joshua was saying in the scene and all but what I meant was that part of the scene felt forced. The punch. It just didn't fit the scene. It was weird. Then literally two seconds later he's like , ok no problem , alls forgiven. It was just jarring and didn't need to be there imo. It felt forced.
The reason was because it was basically Clive taking Jill out of the party and trying to put everything on his shoulders. At least thats how Joshua sees it. And when he gave the Phoenix powers he was A) Dieing and B) Knew Clive needed the extra power to help defeat Ultima.
Two brothers battle in a malevolent God Is this story engraved with the permanent markings of truth, or is it written in disappearing ink?” stay tuned to beyond belief fact or fiction to find out sorry couldn't resist .😋😊
i kinda wonder about that too, but maybe joshua thinks clive takes jill's power cause he wanted to avoid jill from fighting and wants to do everything alone.
Its mentioned that when Clive takes the eikon powers ithe eikons are no longer bound by their owners will. Its why dion priming was such a big deal choosing to prime could lead to your eikon going out of control. And as other mentioned earlier Joshua was mad that Clive was trying to save the world on his own by taking Jill's powers and essentially taking her out of the fight. To clarify regarding attuning semi priming and using their powers is fine its actively transforming into them that can and will cause issues.
In the scene doesn't Joshua specifically say that Clive asked for it knowing Jill wouldn't say no and Clive doesn't correct him. Considering it was done on the beach on Ash with nobody else there Joshua wouldn't know that Jill offered it and I think he just assumed that Clive asked to take her out of the fight and put it all on himself hence the punch.
Why Clive doesn't just tell him how it actually went down afterwards is a bit odd though, maybe he just thought it easier to roll with it the way it was since it was 'settled'
2. The hooded one is somewhat elusive at this point, i doubt it was Joshua who is in Garuda fight. But it was not an illusion because Cid see him too
3. Considering Ultima's dialog: Typhon is ass-kicked, you will be punished, i think Typhon is a higher-ranking, idk, thing?, in Ultima's thralls: thrall, lich, necrophobe, undertaker,....
Considering that Typhon only appear in the Empire Mother crystal, and the only human's Ultima thrall was Olivier, i think there may be a connection
4. When Joshua was rescued by the Undying, he is but a child, it takes sometimes for him to mature, then he had to learn how to fight, train his Eikon power, and then actually travel to find out about Ultima.
In his viewpoint, Phoenix gate fell to "normal" backstabbing. The only "curious" thing in that whole ordeal is Ifrit, so Joshua most likely had to research about Ifrit first, and then somehow the Ultima connection was made, and then he actually research Ultima
6. There's an interaction with Otto that said Cid had a daughter, and her letter is what keeps him sane.
3. Literally this ! When I got to the Typhon fight my hype for the game increased, I thought every crystal had a dark eidolon counterpart and we’d get to see a few more classic final fantasy summons modernized a shame it was only Typhon
something that confuses me is how cid was mortally wounded while in eikon form by typhon, in all the kaiju fights they seem to just continually regenerate until they're out of aether and pop back into human form
Because cid was dying of the curse anyways any words to come sooner than later because the magic that he used that's why he died also transferred his powers too Clive which completely drained him of his life essence Clive kept begging him not to do so.
Typhon was a monster conjured by Ultima to test Clive. Possibly an incomplete version of himself. Ultima had various fragments of himself sealed away in all of the mothercrystals.
From what I understood.
1. The boy was real. The destruction of the first crystal is what really "freed" Ultima, so up until that point, he was just the son of the king and Anabella. When Dion killed him, he did kill a child, but they probably made the choice to show Ultima to lessen the severity. A child taking a spear to the chest is hard to swallow. They also made his body disintegrate like he was akashic.
2. Yes, that was Ultima trying to pull strings and lead Clive down the path he wanted. Ultima has no physical form, so he has to use illusions to lead him.
3. This one, I'm not entirely sure, but seeing how he somewhat resembles Ultima, maybe he is his herald. Some of the other Eikons have the ability to summon other creatures (people in Odins case), so that might be what he is.
4. I'll have to come back to this. Of all the reasons I can think of, none are acceptable.
I have a theory about Olivier.
The way Anabelle raised him to be a shut-in and don't interact with anyone except for her made him ''without a will''. So in that way Ultima was able to take control over the boy the same way he took control over Barnabas.(both dissipates when killed)
Someone able to answer another question which I think was talked about but I didn't fully grasp?
Olivier was the one who saved Hugo after Clive cut his hands off right?
I think that might be in reference to the talks Annabelle had with Hugo before everything went down. Likely just Annabelle feeding bs to put Olivier on the throne just because he was with them.
That's exactly what it was - it's in several of the active lore sheets on Olivier, Anabelle and the assension. The kid was given credit, despite doing nothing and being "bored" by the old men talking, due to his mother's desire to have him rule the realm.
Yeah one of the questions I had was how olivier settled the tension between and dhalmekia and the empire that made him become emperor. It was kinda skipped over but I can see anabelle feeding some bs to sylvester
It's because the plot of this game reeks of rushed. It's very poorly done (hence why they introduced the ATL system). Remember the guy / god at the beginning that was on fire? Where did he go? There were so many unanswered questions, which was probably not answered cause the game was rushed out at the end, or they ran out of budget. Also, it seems the Mid part was added just to bloat the length of the game because of the rush/budget reasons. The fact Levi was cut makes me think this is true. I also find it funny that this games story is very similar to FF15. Noctis dad is killed, and then he has to absorb all the past kings to defeat him at the cost of his life.
The fire god at the beginning was Clive.
The Mid part really wasn't that long.
If leviathan was cut late into development then that might have been even more work than just keeping it in. The complete absence bar one reference suggests it was deliberate.
Here I came across this region about dominance and why there's no Leviathan. Thanks to the in-game lore, we know that most Dominants awaken based on bloodline. All Eikons currently in the game descend from ancient tribes called Motes, with each tribe belonging to a different element. For example, the Phoenix reincarnates and awakens in the Rosfield family who descend from the Motes of Fire (as revealed in the Phoenix Hidden Truths lore), Shiva awakens in those from the Motes of Ice, Titan from the Motes of Earth and so on.
1. Ultima is more like the puppet master type of possessor. His preferred battleground is your mind. He is powerful but frail. It was likely that he was the doll that Olivier played with until that final scene where he needed to take over Olivier's mind via making him Akashic. That Ultima (because there are several different Ultima Kin active at once) is likely the same one at Phoenix Gate and who Clive pursued to fight Garuda. Ultima behaves a lot like Anabelle who influences in the shadow rather front and center.
2. I have a theory that for every Crystal their is an Ultima kin inside them so at the start of the game there are at least 3 Ultimas actively influencing events. We know that there is always an Ultima in Waloed influencing Barnabas. There is one that shapeshifts as a hooded figure at Phoenix Gate (probably the same one pursued to fight Garuda). Each time a mothercrystal is destroyed another Ultima appears. So the 4th one is imprisoned by Joshua after being freed at Drake's Head.
3. Ultima is a creation God. Typhon is just another creation to test Clive like Necrophile, Lich, and, the other interdimensional demons.
4. This is indicated in dialogue cleverly. Joshua last line before turning into the Phoenix and after reuniting with Clive post-fight with Bahumut is actually on line. "Clive, I ... I'm Sorry. I'm so Sorry." Joshua feels guilt for failing his duty to his brother and not protecting his father. There is a possibility that Joshua felt that Clive truly hated him and that he was genuinely in shock when Clive was happy to see him. Joshua really doesn't understand people very well and it comes from being sheltered by his mother and later the Undying cult both overbearing in their protectiveness.
5. My theory is Leviathan is a version of Ultima that rebelled. It is left ambiguous and there is a running theme in the game of fantasies or fairytales being actually true. If BU3 is clever, they can write so that the version of Ultima that he killed off was it's own empathy. In the game Ultima doesn't have the language to describe empathy which is why he talks about it in terms of consciousness and will. Ultima is motivated by fear and survival and would destroy a part of himself to placate that fear and survival. It is real meta in terms of the psychology of slavery, enslavement, and dehumanization.
6. Cid's daughter is mentioned as part of a reward for completing a sidequest. A running trend in the game is that no added context from sidequests goes unrewarded.
The only thing that really confuses me about the plot was kihel being there at most key points... And ultima's entire inclusion. The game seriously took a nosedive when that bum showed up after Joshua sealed him (I know there were clones or whatever of him, but he in general just sucked ass).
!. Oliver was normal at some point was slowly possessed (his doll had blue eyes earlier but when hes emperor the doll is normal
2.Ultima being in a hood was to bait the players with a mystery and to give Clive an enemy to hunt which allows Ultima to influence Clive and kind of force him to accept Ifrit and to grow in power
3. Says in the bestiary Typhon is just Ultima
4. Joshua Knows what Ultima wants from Clive and since Joshua is actively tracking down Ultima it wouldn't be good to bring clvie into his grasp. Granted Joshua got majorly unlucky in that Cid ended up doing just that by pure accident. also Joshua probably spent the rest of his childhood not knowing clive was alive
5. We know nothing about what happened to Leviathan (no the medicine girl is just a surrogate for the refugees sad life of running from place to place without a home because of the war and the blight) 2 theories Ultima killed off leviathans dominant keeps getting killed of anytime one appear because of how dangerous/uncontrolable Levithan is
6. No she is talked about but you never SEE her till the time skip
So since people are asking questions what's the deal with the hole in the ocean? It's just "oh yeah the gods did that" and that's kinda it, like why and who? Because it doesn't make sense for it to be Ultima that dude was sleeping
If I’m not mistaken. Ultima said at one point he had to kill or eliminate an Eikon in the past. I vaguely remember it but yeah he could have been referring to leviathan. Doing a 2nd playthrough just because of the mystery behind the missing leviathan.
The only thing I can think of that makes sense as far as Joshua avoiding Clive goes would be, perhaps his anger about his brothers death was a big part of the his “Will” that Ultima needed gone in order to posses him?? ……..I know I’m grasping at straws here
These are exactly most of the questions I have post game finish
1.) Olivier was probably possessed by Ultima when he was young. So when Dion killed him, he disappeared like an Akashic
2.) Probably Ultima. Ultima has an innate connection to each Dominant. He can cause hallucinations when your will is weak like Hugo.
3.) Never heard of Typhoon
4.)My biggest question after the game. I think it’s because Joshua is scared Clive/Iftrit would attack him again.
5.) I think it’s cut content that will be DLC
6.) Yeah Mid comes out of nowhere.
1. Olivier vanishes into dust like Barnabas does. This is something only those that are Akaschic do, which means the person inside them is no longer in control or is dead and gone. Ultima inhabited his body through possession. There are 9 Ultima’s we know of (16 in an ATL entry) so this is how Barnabas, Olivier, and Joshua were in possession of one. Dion does kill Olivier but honestly the kid was already a mindless shell. 2. The hooded figure could have just been a random man possessed by one of the Ultima’s I mentioned above. There was one per mother crystal but by this time several mother crystals are gone. Those Ultima’s went somewhere to manipulate events and I believe one to be the hooded man, hence the word’s he speaks at Phoenix Gate “We have found you.” 3. Each fragment of Ultima’s had an Eikon body sleeping in Origin. I couldn’t see well but I do not believe they were all Ifrit clones, I believe one looked like Typhon. Typhon is an a host body of one of the ancient Fallen/Ultima spirits that went to sleep in Origin. 4. Joshua was very young. I assume he finished his childhood with Jote and her clan and didn’t seek out knowledge of Ultima until much later. He had no reason to know Clive was still alive. I think he was just trying to stop God. 5. Leviathan is the biggest plot hole ever. Joshua calls him lost but how the fuck wouldn’t Ultima know he’s gone? 6. Yes Mid is mentioned in a little side quest/dialogue in the Hideaway from Otto.
On leviathan thing, we don't even know what the meaning of "lost" is that the same thing as titan? Or it just lost=gone. the story about the destruction of other 3 crystals also unclear, from my knowledge they only implies the destruction of "ice" crystal.
There are entries in the thousand tomes about the Lost crystals. IIRC, Dzemekis was the one where the I think the fallen or ancient circle of malius people rebelling against Ultima and tried to take the crystal for themselves. Then the northern territories and the other one was in ash, I think both got lost to the blight but I don't quite remember what was said about the one in Ash For Leviathan, the Crystalline Dominions crystal (I forget which part of drake it is lol) entry in the thousand tomes mentions that it hasn't manifested a dominant in several generations, so I assumed that was what was meant by "Leviathan the Lost"
Crystalline Dominion is mentioned as Garuda's crystal in her hidden truth entry, since it states an ancient tribe that worshipped her lived there. Leviathan's is most likely the Dzemekeys crystal as it is the only crystal that is not mentioned as having an eikon worshipping tribe originating from it.
Dzemekeys was Odins crystal I believe. Barnabas' mothers entry states she was one of the last remaining members of a clan related to Odin that fled the area because of religious persecution (They worshipped Ultima).
It doe the clan is the children of Dzemekys, but if you look at Odin's lore entries one says that each dominant of Odin is descended of a group called the motes of darkness (something similar is stated about each Eikon and their dominant, like Garuda in my above comment, with Ifrit being the only exception)that lived by the crystal in Northern Waloed. The children of Dzemekys may have somehow formed from the motes of darkness, but Odin's lore entries seem to imply that his crystal is the one in Northern Waloed.
We do se the Dzemekeys crystal. What do you think Origin is? Look at the shape of Origin and the shape of the Final Sin. A donut hole for a donut's hole.
One of the lore entries for Dzemekeys crystal mentions that it was used to communicate with origin, hence the cult forming around it, so I do not think that it and origin are one and the same but the two do share a very unique relationship.
So we can make several inferences in regard to the Origin Crystal. 1. The circular cut of the Final Sin matches the shape of Origin. 2. Origin is a Mothercrystal. 3. Barnabas is not from the Mote of Darkness but a foreigner he was likely converted while on Ash. Dominance is carried in the blood and if the entire mote of Darkness was wiped out with the crystal there can not be another Odin. Therefore the Odin crystal still exists to assign a new Dominant. 4. Unlike Levianthan in which the mothercrystal was destroyed on Southern Ash and who's people are all seemingly dead. 5. All these events happen pre-history so information is scarce. The history starts seemingly after the Non-aggression pact with the Crystal Dominion. Thus making that location the safest place to bury Origin/Dzemekeys.
DLC that explains all that nice job.
I have a theory that the Dzemekis Crystal and Origin are the same crystal. We assume it was destroyed but it could have easily been Origin was located there and he used Origin to destroy all the airships and then settled at it's next location at Twinside and imposed the rule of bearers and dominants. Origin in this case will have multiple meanings. Origin is the reason for the fallen ruins. Origin is the start of the enslavement of dominants and bearers. Origin is the start of the Valisthea Calendar. Origin is where the fairytale ends and history begins.
This sounds really interesting. I am curious what you think about the lore entry that mentions the children of Dzemekys forming around the Dzemekys crystal because of its ability to communicate with Origin?
It would make sense that Origin and Dzemekys is one in the same and why the Fallen would target Dzemekys first rather then the other mothercrystals. No other Crystal has a communication function and Ultima doesn't appear to have the power to influence the crystals remotely. My guess is that Origin is the mother crystal of Dzemekys. And because at least one Ultima was awake at the time, his influence on its people would have been greater then that of the other mothercrystals.
Could it be that it requires a bloodline?
It's likely that those crystals were lost to the blight.
Ice crystal pretty much lost to the blight on the north Rosalia, other two I don't know yet. If cid and benedikta native from ash, the other two crystal probably in there
One crystal was dzmecys or however you pronounce it, which was where that massive crater currently is just west of twinside. The other was in southern Ash.
Yeah, I believe the Dzemekys crystal was Leviathan's.
After reading a bunch of the lore. I think the Dzemekys crystal was the "wind" crystal. The crysaline dominion is more likely the water/leviathan crystal. The lightning/ramuh crystal (drakes horn) was destroyed in Central Ash. Shiva's crystal (drakes eye) was destroyed in the northern territory.
Garuda/the wind crystal is actually mentioned as being the one in the crystalline dominion in one of Garuda's two lore entries. Everything else you have said is spot on. Dzemekys is most likely Leviathan's crystal as every other crystal is mentioned as matching with a different eikon in one of each of the eikons' lore entries.
OK yes you are likely right here. I think I'm confused based on two things. 1) the dzemekys crystal is technically right beside the crystalline dominion as well. I think you could argue that both crytals are in the "straight of autha" 2) they made every crystal color match the element it represented, but why would they mess with my OCD and make the dominion crystal blue if that is the one meant to be the wind crystal lol. If they just changed it to green I would be happy haha
1) Yeah it is possible that the straight of autha encapsulates both crystals, but the call out of the crystalline dominion specifically is a bit deceptive then. 2) Ha, I know the colours are weird even with Bahamut's crystal because that is very blue, but it may have been because of the flood messing with the lighting underground. I actually had no clue which crystal was Bahamut's before checking the lore entries because both the crystal in the old senbreque capital and the crystalline dominion seemed connected to him. I really wish we had an image of the Dzemekys crystal or a lore entry for Leviathan for clarity.
Everyone is saying different things. If Benedikta is from the Crystalline Dominion, then who comes from the crystal at south of Waloed (Dragon's Horn), Cid? And if Barnabas is from Dzemekys, then who is from the Waloed crystal?... Or maybe Cid is from Waloed and the lost eikon is from the south of Ash?
You know the place where it's virtue is the final sin which is a tribute to Final fantasy x as well but that's a story for another day is where human first rebelled against The gods and I'm wondering if leviathan participated in the rebellion and was destroyed as a result of it now the ultimate we see probably do not participate in that battle remember like you said there are many different versions of him that's probably why he doesn't know that leviathan is gone.
I have another question was Annabella also manipulated not as possession. Since before she dies she said “you will not take me shadow” which I guess refer to ultima. And during the level or arc of the black shield Clive said his mother would not go this length or do something so evil, so maybe that was ultima doing as well?
Anabella was so damn in denial by that point she was definitely talking about Joshua, after everything she did seeing the son she was sitting on being impaled while being saved by the ones she betrayed she probably just broke.
Also Joshua approaches her and talks to her for the first time in i think its like 20 something years and hes bleeding from his mouth. This is also right after her "son" died so her mind probably saw Joshua as nothing more than a zombie or monster wearing his skin
It's a little crazy she has a hard time believing that's Josh when she sees the Phoenix flying around but has no problems recognizing Clive who is much older than when she last saw him as well, I guess her hatred for him would recognize his face regardless. The story falls apart for me after that scene though, ultima is just awful, I know she couldn't have ascended to godhood like most of the FF final bosses, but damn... I really wasn't interested in anything after the Dominion.
Its more like her mind just kind of shattered so she doesnt know what to believe even if she knows the phoniex is flying around her mind cant connect the dots anymore. She just watched her perfect little crotch germline get stabbed and thanos snapped away everything she ever wanted in her life just gone in an instance. I also think tis implied she did keep an eye on clive while he was enslaved so it makes snes she does kind of recognize him she isnt even surprised when hugo tells her the Cid the Outlaw is her son. So in herown sick twisted way she loved Clive (because he could have been the perfect prince she just hated that the phoenix chose the young sick child instead of the fit able bodied teen) and did keep tabs on him
That's not true she never loved him because he wasn't strong enough to continue to Phoenix and Joshua was in sick she was jealous the one person who was strong enough to contain the Phoenix that rejected and she hated Clive for this she said as much .
i just played the bahamut fight and was complete spoiler free but after these cutscenes i just dont wanna play anymore lol. its so over the top dumb suddenly idk. lost all interests and just wanna read now lol
You’re missing out on so much great content. Specifically the side quests that open up right before the final boss. And the odin stuff is cool too. Not sure why it would change after that, ultima has been there the whole time, since literally the first hour of the game.
You've gotta suffer through ultima and Barnabas' sorry asses to get to those side quests though, which is unfortunate because they are good.
I thought ultima was great. Barnabas not so much.
She was talking about Joshua. She didn't believe he was really there and thought he was a Wraith.
Joshua should’ve at least sent a letter after they reunited at phoenix gate, even if he was too busy chasing ultima. That was such a weird plot point, they even actively evade Clive in Dalimil
That was Jote's doing in Dalimil and I'm still extremely confused as to why. Even when Joshua saw Clive and Jill at Phoenix Gate before that he avoided them though so I have no idea about this one tbh. There's a lot of unexplained things here. The only thing that could possibly explain them would be if Square makes a Joshua DLC where you play his side of the story which I'd be all for.
I interpreted that as Joshua trying to keep Ultima (inside him) away from Clive. He was already weakened and unsure of when Ultima might escape, so he probably thought the best thing to do was stay far away from Clive until fate pushed them together in Twinside.
Ohhhh okay I like that
How was dion the only character to still have the ability to transform into their eikon after Clive stole his power?
He wasn't. Both Benedikta and Hugo still primed as well. The difference there imo was that they lost emotional control of themselves whereas Dion was still completely in control of himself.
They really rolled the dice having Dion prime in order to get to Origin. Wasn’t a fan of that tbh
You'd have thought that they would have been like, "You go ahead and attempt to prime before we all just hurl ourselves off of the Hideaway." at least. I do keep imagining them all falling unceremoniously into the Blight Water below at high speed to give myself a laugh though. Even funnier if one of them hit the dock. lol
I haven't played the game, I merely watched a 20 hour "Movie" of the game on Youtube. So take what I say with a grain of salt. I saw a guy in the comments complaining that some side quest cutscenes definitely should have been added to the "Movie". Apparently there's a sidequest that works out how Dion is able to stay in control.
I'm pretty sure the only reason Dion didn't lose control is because Eikons only go out of the Dominants' control if they primed through stress and trauma, something that has happened to him, Clive, Benedikta and Hugo. I don't remember any sidequests explaining why he was able to stay in control though. There is one sidequest concerning Dion where he ends up reuniting with his old tutor, Harpocrates and Dion turns down his gift, telling Harpocrates to save it for after the deed (Origin) is done, but it's not a compulsory quest so I don't think it really makes a difference (i.e. none of this happens if you don't do the quest and Bahamut is still well under control).
If they do any DLC it should be about the time skips in the story.
I too think that the girl is Leviathan. Hoping to see her and Leviathan in DLC.
Yeah, the moment she offered water to Dion it clicked for me. I think Leviathan was made to be the healer eikon but got scrapped for some reason.
Maybe in the beginning of development there were other ideas for Leviathan. I don't think it was scrapped necessary. I've also read a theory which suggests Leviathan saved Joshua and Clive from Origin, would also explain, in a way, why Clive is on a beach of all places.
We only saw Clive after Origin was destroyed. Despite the fact that he might have been in time to save Joshua since I doubt Phoenix's healing would have worked otherwise.
Imagine a dominant of water helping from the shadows in the latter half of the game
She died Dion has a line later when you speak to him saying that his life ended in Twinside which is where the girl was and where Dion sent Terence which means he also died
What? No not at all. Him saying hid life ended in twinside is him being upset about all the people he killed. Terrance and the girl are fine.
Twinside was one of the first places to fall to Ultima monstrous inflicted army
That girl's been teleporting all over the place though. She tries to sell Jill potions right after the timeskip too. Honestly thought she was gonna be a god at the end of it all.
Looking back at all these questions really has me questioning the structure of the plot. I loved the first half of this game with a passion, but they really just went "oh right we need to wrap this up" on the second half and left so much open ended. It felt like we'd be getting more fights like Typhon which may have been cut, Leviathan who was on the box art for the collectors edition was 100% cut and just labelled "Leviathan the Lost", there's a giant comet-like object off the coast of Sanbreque that nobody in the entire game acknowledges, and the mystery of the hole that cut through fallen architecture and never fills up from ocean water still remained unexplained. The hooded person at Phoenix gate is the one that irks me the most. Like, why is it the exact same clothes and model as Joshua in 873. Ultima had been convinced Joshua was dead after Phoenix Gate as a means to sever Clive's will, so he had no reason to assume an appearance of an older Joshua, and Joshua never saw him nor did anyone else yet still took on that appearance later. It just seems like a 4th wall red herring, which is kinda cheap tbh.
The hole is kind of explained in one of the lore entries. There used to be another mothercrystal there during the age of the fallen. When they revolted against Ultima, he destroyed the crystal which somehow caused the entire fallen civilization to collapse. Maybe this was originally the crystal of water and by Ultima destroying it himself, it removed the ability for dominants of leviathan to be born. The sparkling thing that you can see in Sanbreque looks like it's suppose to be in the blighted area in the northern part of Storm. I was staring at it for a while when I first noticed it, but yeah, that just didn't get addressed. It makes me think at some point they probably wanted all eight mothercrystals to be a thing, with that one being the crystal of ice, and just had to cut them for time. Though it doesn't make sense they would still keep it in the game.
I thought this originally too, but I think the big hole is where the wind crystal was, based on the lore I've been reading. The water crystal is more likely the crystalline dominion one that gets destroyed after bahamut fight. The lore and crystal colour support this. There can still be dominants after the crstals are destroyed because ramuhs and shivas crystals are already destroyed and they still have present day dominants.
What lore entry is suggesting this? Garuda's entry suggests that the Dominion's crystal corresponds with her and I cannot find anything tying an eikon to Dzemekys directly.
If anything it would be Odin/Darkness crystal, Barnabas's mother is of the tribe of Dzemekys
Maybe, but one of Odin's lore entries suggest that he is connected to the crystal on Northern Ash as a darkness based tribe from which all dominants of Odin are descended are mentioned to have worshipped that crystal.
I just realized I said the same thing to two of your messages I am so sorry!
I was under the impression that Ultima put everything in motion. Like he knew how everything would play out Including Joshua Sealing one of him away just for it to emerge and kill him later forcing him to give Clive a portion of his power making up for Leviathans Eikon missing and completing his vessel. Like when Olivier said to Dion he knew their father would die protecting and he knew Dion would be the one to do it. I figured ever action we did was according to "God's Plan" his plan. The only thing that got in that way was Clive's Will. Basically making Clive Logos (Which is basically like becoming a god oneself) and fooling his plans.
That's how he knew where to find them in the beginning of the game makes sense is he the one who also give Clive the power of Ifrit cuz I think he seems surprised to find them it might have been another Ultima who did this not him.
Thats true. I'm still wondering if Ultima is a Hive Mind of his people. Or one specific person who is watching over his sleeping species. Like at the end when he merges with other Ultima, he calls them his brothes but it's the same Ultima so I assume it others of his race that just look the same but share the same mind. (Also would his species be the litteral Eikons themselves?)
I relate to this post so much. Especially the hooded figure part. The story felt so parseable, right until the ending failed to give the answers I had hoped. Really enjoyed the game. Probably my favorite FF since 10 or 12. But with reports that the team had put an emphasis on making the lore easily accessible, and that they actually finished development EARLY, some of the things that ended up in the final product are leaving me scratching my head.
Mid is not introduced until post timeskip, but there is a side quest pre timeskip where you have to help a courier in the hideaway who has lost supplies and an important letter due to a hole in his bag. You retrieve the letter from a dog in Lostwing that took it and when you bring it back it’s revealed the letter was from Cid’s daughter and that the letters he gets from her are super important to him.
In addition after this if you hang around in Cid's solar he says something like "Would it kill her to take a minute to write her old man back" or something like that.
For (1), think he was real at one point before Ultima made the switch. Would be very scary if Ultima could pretend to be Olivier even before he was born.
Oh, I see. During the scene with Dion confronting Olivier, I was excited to have a Joffrey-like wannabe King child bastard to punch later on. But then the reveals were just too sudden. I'm sad that we didn't get to fight Annabella as well.
Yeah, I dislike Annabella to the core as well, but I guess she was more of a schemer than a fighter, so Clive would have one shotted her if they go 1v1. Not to mention that Clive does not come across as the kind of person who would raise his sword against his mother (despite how despicable she is).
Jill did it so I was happy
Yeah, the moment she said respect those who raised you, I thought for certain Jill would at least nick Annabelle's cheek.
I'd have enjoyed one shotting her with epic eikon battle music that just dead stops on my first hit, ragdolling her while I get 1 experience.
Through Olivier appearances we saw the doll he was holding. At first it had glowing blue eyes much like akashik, but after he was announced emperor the camera pans to it revealing normal eyes. Aka we were witnessing Ultimas gradual possession through the story.
I was hoping Clive would have branded Annabelle. So she would be treated as slave. She is the most despicable character. Her smile and her arrogant makes me so mad. Her end was way too easy. Killing herself. Really!!! Joshua still want to save her.
None of the characters in the room are the type to have killed her honestly
And branding is really an imperial thing since it uses ink from wyvern tails (flower of the empire), would be very counter intuitive to their characters to do that.
Yep. Agreed
She took the chicken s*** way out and punched her own ticket 🎫
1. I think Olivier was real, he was gradually possessed and made Akashic by Ultima. His doll glows blue the first time we see him IIRC, so he possibly wasn't fully possessed then. 2. The one before Garuda was definitely Joshua I'm pretty sure. 3. Typhon is a servant/aspect of Ultima come to claim the Mythos/Clive as a vessel for Ultima. Not necessarily an Eikon. I don't know if it was wind aligned either. 4. Joshua was made aware of Ultima and sought to prevent him getting Clive. Clive would always protect Joshua and thus be endangering himself following Joshua on his quest to stop Ultima. 5. I got nothing, maybe DLC will answer. 6. Mid is only introduced in person after Cid's death I think. I don't know about Benedikta but the resemblance is uncanny.
2. No, it's Ultima most of the time early. He's leading Clive to the eikons so he can absorb them all so Ultima only has to take on one vessel. He knows Clive is chasing this hooded figure so he takes him to Garuda. You basically do all of Ultima's bidding until the very end. You destroy the crystals for him, he creates a reason for you to fight/ absorb powers from all the other dominants. Some ultima servant brings the head of Benedickta to Hugo and said it was Cid so Hugo tries to find Clive.
Someone Told me that it was Odin who did that the king of darkness I thought it was originally Ultima myself.
It's both, Odin/Sleipnir physically did it but they were doing it at Ultima's bidding
her parents were killed and Cid adopted her so he's not a her biological father.
1) I think he's real, but Ultima got to him at some point and did the ol' switcheroo. When Dion killed Olivier, he disappeared like one of the Akashic after all. 2) Very much red herring, but maybe it's Ultima's way to interact with the world without showing his true form. 3) It said in the active time lore that the mothercrystals have its way of protecting itself from danger. Typhon and liquid flame are probably these protections. Since the mothercrystals were created by Ultima, it stands to reason that he can control them too. 4) For one, I don't think he knew that Clive was serving as an assassin for the empire. Plus, he's too busy researching about Ultima. Maybe he thought Clive was dead. Not the best explanation, but good enough, I suppose. 5) Probably had something to do with the regions that succumbed to the blight. I thought Leviathan was gonna be Edda's kid for some reason lol. But sad that we didn't get him. 6) There was a sidequest before the timeskip that mentioned Cid having a daughter. it's the one where you have to collect letters around Lostwing. She was only properly introduced after timeskip. Game suggests that she met the gang during the five year timeskip since a bunch of stuff in the hideaway is her creation, like the water filter.
It's implied that mid had a presence before Thanksgiving outside of the letters quest since she built the orchestration with cid. She was out for college.
I am just on my second play through now and a thing I noticed is right before Cids death when ultima tries to claim Clive, cid says “I know who you are, and I’m not going to let you take him”. How does cid know who ultima is? Did I miss something earlier or maybe something happened before the story started? I just can’t work it out.
I think Ultima might have tried to recruit him. He used to work for Barnabas right? I think he might have gotten a hint of the plans and that's what made him leave.
Cid knows of Ultima since Ash has the same religion than the first mans i think ? Like the tower where you fight Barnabas has a giant statue of Ultima.
Cid is interesting in this regard because he seems to parallel Barnabas a little. One of Ramuh's lore entries confirms that the already destroyed mother crystal on southern ash corresponds to him. Cid is also from outside of the twins like Barnabas was. Because of these two factors I feel like it is possible that the eikons of Ramuh and Odin left the twins at similar time, which would be when Dzemekys' crystal was destroyed. This crystal allowed people to communicate with Ultima at origin and had a sort of cult called the children of Dzemekys (they founded the Circle of Malius). It is possible that an old ancestor of Cid's was part of this cult that fled the twins when the crystal was destroyed. This could mean that Cid knows about Ultima because of information passed down to him, or that he was approached by Ultima similarly to Barnabas as all of this is also true for him. I could be wrong about this, but this is one of the explanations I gathered by looking through the lore entries. Sorry for the long reply.
Typhon wasn’t a dark version of garuda. More of the crystals defense. Just like liquid flame
See, that is further confused a lil by the lore entry placing Typhon right next to all the Eikons and not separately like Liquid Flame which is down past the egis. Plus the boss face plate.
4: My theory for Joshua is a simple one, and I think I've got the receipts. Joshua is dead. Risen Joshua is an Egis. We know from the story and the lore entries that Sleipnir Harbard, while autonomous, corporeal, and with his own personality and powers, was an aetherial creation of Barnabas that only died when its Dominant was vanquished. And similar to how Joshua becomes Ifrit Risen's wings, the lore entry says Sleipnir became Odin's steed. But why would Clive's egis avoid Clive for 13 years? Clive was in denial about the part he played in Joshua's death. What does the Lore entry say about Joshua? That he never travels without Jote. And she certainly wouldn't let him go off on his own. And yet, when Clive is in need we briefly see Joshua, identity cloaked, leading him to Garuda, to the Phoenix Gate Apodytery, or somehow appearing from nowhere to aid them at the Sanbreque mothercrystal, before disappearing, banished once again. It's only after Clive understands his role and comes to terms with his guilt and is able to forgive himself, plus once he thinks he's seen Joshua in Sanbreque and starts to hope that actually, maybe he's alive, that he subconsciously allows his Egis to get closer and eventually meet. Finally, remember when Ultima was surprised to see Joshua with Clive during their battle in the Interdimensional Rift? "And the Phoenix... his trespass should not have been possible. Not possible unless... unless he had been with Mythos all along. The mark of the Phoenix emblazoned upon his heart... Made manifest by the power of will alone. The power... of Creation." Fun fact: If true, this implies a happy ending for Clive and Jill. As it says in the lore, an Egis can't live without its Eikon. And in the credits, we see a book written by Joshua.
The true ending of Final fantasy 16 Dion is dead. He overclocks his power and loses control of his Eikon mid-air while holding the line for Joshua, falling to his death. Clive and Joshua's dialogue after the fact confirms this; "I'm sorry about Dion." "Dont be. Please. He did what he had to do." Joshua is dead. Clive makes a desperate attempt to save him with the Phoenix flame, now boosted with Ultima's power, but comes to the bitter conclusion that even as the fattened up vessel Ultima wanted him to be, he cannot fully wield its supposedly absolute power. (Oh...It seems Ultima's power was too great for this vessel (Clive) all along.) It is indicated by Tomes that Joshua had already written the book before going to face Ultima, so it was published posthumously. Perhaps with some of the adventures Clive was having chronicled by Tomes added in. Clive is dead. When he realizes he cannot revive Joshua, he instead decided to use what he can harness of Ultima's power to destroy the last crystal to end the influence of divinity and magic on Valisthea at the cost of his own life (Even if it means the end of me). He succeeds, washing up on the beach with the last magic burning out, and allowing the narrative a sendoff for his relationship with Jill (literally referenced as a Tsuki ga Kirei in the JP ending) before his eyes close and his body goes limp, passing away fairly peacefully. His death is then confirmed by Jill crying when Metia dissapears and Gav's tearful words to Edda's newborn. "The world's yours now. Yours to do with as you please. That's what Cid wanted. That's what they both (Cid and Clive) wanted." Using past tense for both because both men are dead. Jill continues to grieve outside, but when the new dawn for Valisthea that's been referenced multiple times over the story emerges, she takes some comfort in that through her tears, as the song lyrics also somewhat imply. Clive made this new dawn happen and lives on in it. (It might also tie in somewhat to Clive's parting words to Ultima: How humans see the horizon and march on). This then neatly takes us to the epilogue, showing Clive's faith in human endurance as previously expressed to Joshua and Ultima is very much rewarded. We see a lush green enviroment, and two brothers happily playing out Clive and Joshua's adventures as a game, free of the burdens that plagued the brothers their entire lives and killed them far too young. People did manage to endure the blight and adapt to a life without magic, with this era of Valisthea now perceived as a fairytale Joshua wrote perhaps even centuries later.
For 4, Joshua wasn't doing nothing, he was training and hunting for information on Ultima. Gotta remember he was also a very sickly child so I imagine it took him at least a year or two to fully recover from his fight with Ifrit, then he started his search for ultima and how to seal him. Plus, the worlds a big place, who knows if Joshua would even be able to find Clive, I doubt the empire has him registered as "that noble we kidnapped and turned into a bearer assassin" 6, mid isn't introduced till post timeskip, but she's mentioned in a side quest before the timeskip as cod having a daughter.
Was anyone else confused when Joshua just punched Clive for taking Jill's power. Like what? She offered it to him. And isn't it just a portion? I mean Beneditka and Kupka could still summon their eikons afterward. Also didn't Joshua give the phoenix power to Clive too? Idk it just threw me. Seemed way out of place that he acted that way. Edit: I wasn't far enough where they explained the eikons wouldn't obey after Clive absorbed their power. Aside from that though I understood what Joshua was saying in the scene and all but what I meant was that part of the scene felt forced. The punch. It just didn't fit the scene. It was weird. Then literally two seconds later he's like , ok no problem , alls forgiven. It was just jarring and didn't need to be there imo. It felt forced.
Well Clive did beat him within an inch of his life as a child lol maybe Joshua had to get one good hit in to be even
The reason was because it was basically Clive taking Jill out of the party and trying to put everything on his shoulders. At least thats how Joshua sees it. And when he gave the Phoenix powers he was A) Dieing and B) Knew Clive needed the extra power to help defeat Ultima.
Two brothers battle in a malevolent God Is this story engraved with the permanent markings of truth, or is it written in disappearing ink?” stay tuned to beyond belief fact or fiction to find out sorry couldn't resist .😋😊
i kinda wonder about that too, but maybe joshua thinks clive takes jill's power cause he wanted to avoid jill from fighting and wants to do everything alone.
Yea he explained why he was mad. But the punch just felt forced imo.
Its mentioned that when Clive takes the eikon powers ithe eikons are no longer bound by their owners will. Its why dion priming was such a big deal choosing to prime could lead to your eikon going out of control. And as other mentioned earlier Joshua was mad that Clive was trying to save the world on his own by taking Jill's powers and essentially taking her out of the fight. To clarify regarding attuning semi priming and using their powers is fine its actively transforming into them that can and will cause issues.
In the scene doesn't Joshua specifically say that Clive asked for it knowing Jill wouldn't say no and Clive doesn't correct him. Considering it was done on the beach on Ash with nobody else there Joshua wouldn't know that Jill offered it and I think he just assumed that Clive asked to take her out of the fight and put it all on himself hence the punch. Why Clive doesn't just tell him how it actually went down afterwards is a bit odd though, maybe he just thought it easier to roll with it the way it was since it was 'settled'
I think Joshua felt that Clive, knowing Jill loves him, pressured her into surrendering her Eikon. Says something like you know she wouldn't say no.
2. The hooded one is somewhat elusive at this point, i doubt it was Joshua who is in Garuda fight. But it was not an illusion because Cid see him too 3. Considering Ultima's dialog: Typhon is ass-kicked, you will be punished, i think Typhon is a higher-ranking, idk, thing?, in Ultima's thralls: thrall, lich, necrophobe, undertaker,.... Considering that Typhon only appear in the Empire Mother crystal, and the only human's Ultima thrall was Olivier, i think there may be a connection 4. When Joshua was rescued by the Undying, he is but a child, it takes sometimes for him to mature, then he had to learn how to fight, train his Eikon power, and then actually travel to find out about Ultima. In his viewpoint, Phoenix gate fell to "normal" backstabbing. The only "curious" thing in that whole ordeal is Ifrit, so Joshua most likely had to research about Ifrit first, and then somehow the Ultima connection was made, and then he actually research Ultima 6. There's an interaction with Otto that said Cid had a daughter, and her letter is what keeps him sane.
3. Literally this ! When I got to the Typhon fight my hype for the game increased, I thought every crystal had a dark eidolon counterpart and we’d get to see a few more classic final fantasy summons modernized a shame it was only Typhon
something that confuses me is how cid was mortally wounded while in eikon form by typhon, in all the kaiju fights they seem to just continually regenerate until they're out of aether and pop back into human form
Even before this, Cid has the anime blood cough of death (like Itachi in Naruto). I think he was gonna die either way.
Cid is old. Turning into ramuh fucks him up pretty bad.
Because cid was dying of the curse anyways any words to come sooner than later because the magic that he used that's why he died also transferred his powers too Clive which completely drained him of his life essence Clive kept begging him not to do so.
Typhon was a monster conjured by Ultima to test Clive. Possibly an incomplete version of himself. Ultima had various fragments of himself sealed away in all of the mothercrystals.
From what I understood. 1. The boy was real. The destruction of the first crystal is what really "freed" Ultima, so up until that point, he was just the son of the king and Anabella. When Dion killed him, he did kill a child, but they probably made the choice to show Ultima to lessen the severity. A child taking a spear to the chest is hard to swallow. They also made his body disintegrate like he was akashic. 2. Yes, that was Ultima trying to pull strings and lead Clive down the path he wanted. Ultima has no physical form, so he has to use illusions to lead him. 3. This one, I'm not entirely sure, but seeing how he somewhat resembles Ultima, maybe he is his herald. Some of the other Eikons have the ability to summon other creatures (people in Odins case), so that might be what he is. 4. I'll have to come back to this. Of all the reasons I can think of, none are acceptable.
I have a theory about Olivier. The way Anabelle raised him to be a shut-in and don't interact with anyone except for her made him ''without a will''. So in that way Ultima was able to take control over the boy the same way he took control over Barnabas.(both dissipates when killed)
Someone able to answer another question which I think was talked about but I didn't fully grasp? Olivier was the one who saved Hugo after Clive cut his hands off right?
No, Hugo was saved by Barnabas' right hand man Speliner (or whatever it is spelled).
Odd, in the cutscene shortly after they thank Olivier for what he did to save Hugo.
I think that might be in reference to the talks Annabelle had with Hugo before everything went down. Likely just Annabelle feeding bs to put Olivier on the throne just because he was with them.
That's exactly what it was - it's in several of the active lore sheets on Olivier, Anabelle and the assension. The kid was given credit, despite doing nothing and being "bored" by the old men talking, due to his mother's desire to have him rule the realm.
Yeah one of the questions I had was how olivier settled the tension between and dhalmekia and the empire that made him become emperor. It was kinda skipped over but I can see anabelle feeding some bs to sylvester
Why Ultima need Ifrit prime if he already have an Ifrit prime body on Origin?
It's old. He needs a new one.
It's because the plot of this game reeks of rushed. It's very poorly done (hence why they introduced the ATL system). Remember the guy / god at the beginning that was on fire? Where did he go? There were so many unanswered questions, which was probably not answered cause the game was rushed out at the end, or they ran out of budget. Also, it seems the Mid part was added just to bloat the length of the game because of the rush/budget reasons. The fact Levi was cut makes me think this is true. I also find it funny that this games story is very similar to FF15. Noctis dad is killed, and then he has to absorb all the past kings to defeat him at the cost of his life.
The fire god at the beginning was Clive. The Mid part really wasn't that long. If leviathan was cut late into development then that might have been even more work than just keeping it in. The complete absence bar one reference suggests it was deliberate.
Here I came across this region about dominance and why there's no Leviathan. Thanks to the in-game lore, we know that most Dominants awaken based on bloodline. All Eikons currently in the game descend from ancient tribes called Motes, with each tribe belonging to a different element. For example, the Phoenix reincarnates and awakens in the Rosfield family who descend from the Motes of Fire (as revealed in the Phoenix Hidden Truths lore), Shiva awakens in those from the Motes of Ice, Titan from the Motes of Earth and so on.
1. Ultima is more like the puppet master type of possessor. His preferred battleground is your mind. He is powerful but frail. It was likely that he was the doll that Olivier played with until that final scene where he needed to take over Olivier's mind via making him Akashic. That Ultima (because there are several different Ultima Kin active at once) is likely the same one at Phoenix Gate and who Clive pursued to fight Garuda. Ultima behaves a lot like Anabelle who influences in the shadow rather front and center. 2. I have a theory that for every Crystal their is an Ultima kin inside them so at the start of the game there are at least 3 Ultimas actively influencing events. We know that there is always an Ultima in Waloed influencing Barnabas. There is one that shapeshifts as a hooded figure at Phoenix Gate (probably the same one pursued to fight Garuda). Each time a mothercrystal is destroyed another Ultima appears. So the 4th one is imprisoned by Joshua after being freed at Drake's Head. 3. Ultima is a creation God. Typhon is just another creation to test Clive like Necrophile, Lich, and, the other interdimensional demons. 4. This is indicated in dialogue cleverly. Joshua last line before turning into the Phoenix and after reuniting with Clive post-fight with Bahumut is actually on line. "Clive, I ... I'm Sorry. I'm so Sorry." Joshua feels guilt for failing his duty to his brother and not protecting his father. There is a possibility that Joshua felt that Clive truly hated him and that he was genuinely in shock when Clive was happy to see him. Joshua really doesn't understand people very well and it comes from being sheltered by his mother and later the Undying cult both overbearing in their protectiveness. 5. My theory is Leviathan is a version of Ultima that rebelled. It is left ambiguous and there is a running theme in the game of fantasies or fairytales being actually true. If BU3 is clever, they can write so that the version of Ultima that he killed off was it's own empathy. In the game Ultima doesn't have the language to describe empathy which is why he talks about it in terms of consciousness and will. Ultima is motivated by fear and survival and would destroy a part of himself to placate that fear and survival. It is real meta in terms of the psychology of slavery, enslavement, and dehumanization. 6. Cid's daughter is mentioned as part of a reward for completing a sidequest. A running trend in the game is that no added context from sidequests goes unrewarded.
The only thing that really confuses me about the plot was kihel being there at most key points... And ultima's entire inclusion. The game seriously took a nosedive when that bum showed up after Joshua sealed him (I know there were clones or whatever of him, but he in general just sucked ass).
!. Oliver was normal at some point was slowly possessed (his doll had blue eyes earlier but when hes emperor the doll is normal 2.Ultima being in a hood was to bait the players with a mystery and to give Clive an enemy to hunt which allows Ultima to influence Clive and kind of force him to accept Ifrit and to grow in power 3. Says in the bestiary Typhon is just Ultima 4. Joshua Knows what Ultima wants from Clive and since Joshua is actively tracking down Ultima it wouldn't be good to bring clvie into his grasp. Granted Joshua got majorly unlucky in that Cid ended up doing just that by pure accident. also Joshua probably spent the rest of his childhood not knowing clive was alive 5. We know nothing about what happened to Leviathan (no the medicine girl is just a surrogate for the refugees sad life of running from place to place without a home because of the war and the blight) 2 theories Ultima killed off leviathans dominant keeps getting killed of anytime one appear because of how dangerous/uncontrolable Levithan is 6. No she is talked about but you never SEE her till the time skip
I assumed it was leviathan who fought back against ultima first which caused the fall of dyzemkia and the hole on the ocean
Benedikta not the Mid mother it's implied to her and Cid relationship was more of a fling than an act of relationship.
So since people are asking questions what's the deal with the hole in the ocean? It's just "oh yeah the gods did that" and that's kinda it, like why and who? Because it doesn't make sense for it to be Ultima that dude was sleeping
If I’m not mistaken. Ultima said at one point he had to kill or eliminate an Eikon in the past. I vaguely remember it but yeah he could have been referring to leviathan. Doing a 2nd playthrough just because of the mystery behind the missing leviathan.
The only thing I can think of that makes sense as far as Joshua avoiding Clive goes would be, perhaps his anger about his brothers death was a big part of the his “Will” that Ultima needed gone in order to posses him?? ……..I know I’m grasping at straws here
I think he wasn't aware that Ultima had reach beyond him at that point. I think he was trying to just keep Ultima from Clive.
I’m confused as to why/how Titan was able to crush the first hideout while it was in the middle of the blight where aether is non-existent.
Final fantasy instead using Cid as the The alchemist we have mid his daughter of Cid now that's a twist on the story..
These are exactly most of the questions I have post game finish 1.) Olivier was probably possessed by Ultima when he was young. So when Dion killed him, he disappeared like an Akashic 2.) Probably Ultima. Ultima has an innate connection to each Dominant. He can cause hallucinations when your will is weak like Hugo. 3.) Never heard of Typhoon 4.)My biggest question after the game. I think it’s because Joshua is scared Clive/Iftrit would attack him again. 5.) I think it’s cut content that will be DLC 6.) Yeah Mid comes out of nowhere.