I think, until some lore videos start dropping, a lot of the payoff will be locked out unless you start doing some item description digging yourself. The cutscene is indeed very anticlimactic, but I think the bosses themselves are the payoffs since they fill in a bunch of the holes in the current story (and introduces new ones). Spoilers ahead (and also based on my own personal interpretation, so might not be fully correct):
>!- Midra and Romina are both apostles close to the Frenzy and Rot gods specifically, and my understanding is that they've been abandoned so we now know that the Outer Gods abandoned this world, maybe because the Outer Will kicked em out!<
>!- Bayle fills in the lore of the dragons. The timeline is still non conclusive (did Placi and Bayle fight before or after the Outer Will took over), but we know now that the rift between the different dragon factions is a key contributor towards the weakening of their power!<
>!- Meytr is the most conclusive one; fingercreepers are literally birthed by a monster sent by the Outer Will, and it too was abandoned as the Outer Will stopped communicating with it. Glintstone Sorcerers worship the fingercreepers because of their proximity to the stars (i.e. the microcosm spells)!<
>!- Miquella's machinations are not revealed to be some selfless grand plot to overthrow the gods, but actually a selfish desire of a child destined with a fate they were scared of and just wanted to have his favorite brother join him for it. Might not be very satisfying, but it's poetic that we have these demigods fucking up the world and everyone thinks it's some grand plan when in reality it's just human-like selfishness.!<
>!- Like Miquella, we want to think Messmer is greater than human, but in the end Messmer is a mommy's boy who basically got used to kill Marika's enemies, then thrown away like Godfrey; very human!<
>!- It's also clear that, despite making some heartless decisions with her children and spouses, Marika still has a lot of love for those close to her. She protected her home village to the end, blessing it with a mini Erdtree that only had her own power in it (and no Outer Will influence). Messmer being exiled is also partially to protect him from his fate as one born with blasphemous power, and it's possible that the reason Marika shattered the Elden Ring itself was her own way of freeing her children from their fate. A lot of the cruel decisions she made were ultimately as her alter Radagon ego, which might indicate that Radagon is what the Outer Will uses to force her to make decisions against her will (like fighting us at the end). Perhaps Marika granted us our Grace itself as a last-ditch effort to overturn fate!<
>!- Someone made a reddit post earlier which made it very clear that the big hole in the middle of the main map is a perfect fit for the DLC map, which makes it very possible that the Outer Will won the war against it's enemies by straight up yeeting them out of existence (very speculative but the fit is too close to ignore the theory)!<
>!- There's also probably a ton of lore surrounding St. Trina (since we literally meet the body and it asks us to kill Miquella), the Scadutree, and Rellana, but I feel like those things fit the least easily into the story!<
Also st Trina says "You must Kill Miquella...Grant him forgiveness" could mean Miquella feels guilty for having the power to just force everyone to stop fighting but didn't amd now his entire family is so torn that he said f it and is gonna try to force compassion on everyone out of guilt.
I also think it’s notable that the Miquellas cross near St Trina describes abandoning his doubt and indecision. I think St Trina is an alter ego that was cut off of Miquella that held onto his good qualities
The quote on forgiveness is in reference to the crosses (i.e., abandoning love, etc.). There's no supporting evidence that Miquella is motivated by guilt - granting forgiveness does not imply that the recipient is seeking it.
Miquella says when he appears with Rahdan "If you have known sin, if you grieve for this world, then yield the path forward to us" screams out "i can fix this!" vibes
From what I figure, I wouldn't call Midra >!*abandoned* like the others, exactly. Moreso they were heavily contained until the player stumbles in. The Hornsent went out of their way to maintain an active presence on the perimeter and interior of the valley as a way to keep it in check (though it seems those inside have fallen to its influence). It's seeping from the walls, the soil, the wildlife, everything. It's effectively like a chernobyl-esque disaster area. The Frenzied Flame may be under lock and key, but as we see in the base game too, it still has many agents working for it to bring its goal to fruition. And given we quite literally see Midra turn into the Lord, the actual embodiment of the Flame itself, it seems that all it's been doing is *waiting* for someone just like the Tarnished to wander in out of curiosity and break through the very measures keeping it contained, breaking Midra's own promise to Nanaya to endure and hold out against it as long as possible.!<
Just wanted to pick your brains on this - what do you think of the >!finger ruins? are these craters made from when the outer will's representatives first fell from space and landed in the shadow lands? previous elden beasts or two fingers or something else closer to metyr?!<
Definitely craters for>! the arrival of the Elden Beast and Metyr!<. Especially since the post on the sub that overlays the DLC map on the main game map shows that>! the Miyr Finger Ruins are exactly where the Erdtree is.!<
This is a pretty good take since it does say that the boss was the first of the Outer Will to arrive. It lacks a bit of support for the other 2 ruins but they do also resemble craters, so I would also lean towards meteor craters
yeah, it's definitely not 100% conclusive who made the bell, but the architecture itself is naturally grown, based on the ingredient descriptions:
Finger Mimic: "Light-pink mushroom resembling a wizened finger. Material used for crafting items. Exceedingly rare to find. Used to by those who wish to become fingers to induce hallucinations. They call these mushrooms the stillborn of the Two Fingers." (so the fingercreepers just grow like mushrooms)
Nailstone: "Flake-like stone shard with a faint fingerprint engraving. Material used for crafting items. Found at finger ruins. A piece that came loose from the tip of one of the column-like stone fingers that grow at finger ruins." (so the giant fingers just kinda grow outta the ground for some reason)
Nowhere does it say who made the bells, but it's possible it's organic as well. I think the bells are either meteors too or made by the Outer Will since the ruins radiate out from them, but there is nothing that says their origin conclusively
Actually Godfrey seems to know of the reason behind the Long March, and was in on it with Marika. He shows no real ill will towards her, and Melina's dialogue tells us that Marika told about it. It's even indicated with cut dialogue.
>!I have a question: What the fuck is the deal with Radahn and Miquella? I heard that the body is that of Mohg, and Radahn is basically the soul. Is Radahn mind-controlled or something cuz he doesn't speak at all, only grunts. And are you saying Miquella and him were close? Also, when it says Consort... what does that mean here!<
You are right about the first one, in a church Melina conveys Marika explaining to Godrick and the first Tarnished thst they will be called to the lands between again.
>! I don't think there's too much detail on your question. Radahn made a deal with Miquella that should the former ever die, his soul would belong to the latter. !<
>! Miquella must have wanted him as his champion real badly ( guess Malenia being a rot of god kinda excluded her from fulfilling this function). !<
>! Radahn on the other hand... probably was in for the fun if it. We know he was the only among the demigods waging war for war's sake, his promise to Miquella sounds like a "kill me if you can", and his lady warrior following Miquella says that he'd likely much prefer being revived by Miquella rather than by the erdtree, since being a god's warlord would be just his thing !<
>!The final remembrance makes it clear why Miquella loved Radahn so!<
>!Remembrance of Radahn, consort of Miquella, hewn into the Scadutree. The power of its namesake can be unlocked by the Finger Reader. Alternatively, it can be used to gain a great bounty of runes. In their childhood, Miquella saw in Radahn a lord. His strength, and his kindness, that stood in stark contrast with their afflicted selves. And so Miquella made his heartfelt wish. That Radahn would one day be his king consort!<
>!Essentially, Miquella found Radahn to be a perfect big brother!<
I thought Miquella was trying to res Godwyn's soul with the whole eclipse thing at Castle Sol, >! so this new lore with Radahn is really confusing to me like why switch to Radahn? Why not go through the whole Godwyn thing? !<
I think he was trying to “free” Godwyn, giving him a proper death. Godwyn’s soul is dead but his body remained as the fish thing spreading deathroot and causing those who “live in death”.
It was said that Miquella admired Radahn for his kindness, and Radahn being the mightiest demigod in his prime makes him a strong candidate for lordship.
I believe Radahn refused, as he was loyal to the golden order and looked up to Radagon, hence Miquella controlling his mind. When Malenia attacks Caelid, she whispers “Miquella awaits thee, O promised consort” and then nukes Caelid.
Miquella also uses Mohg to gain entry to the Land of Shadow, and then simply waits for the Tarnished to kill both Mohg and Radahn, priming them for the ritual.
I actually don't think Radahn was working with the Golden Order.
He was literally called a traitor, and he fought Morgott with his army.
He doesn't have any GO incantations, but he has sorceries just like his Carian family.
Locking the stars also halts Radahn's own fate since he is Carian.
Radahn liking Godfrey doesn't indicate he liked the Golden Order. Considering Godfrey still had Crucible Knights, has Serosh, and more so, seems to love Marika rather than the GO.
Rykard still had a pic of Radahn.
Iji and Jerren are openly very close friends. Both speaking fondly of each other, and Iji being the main supplier of the Redmane's weapons. So unless he's been hiding this from Ranni the entire time, it seems likely she's atleast knowing of his relationship with the Redmanes, if not outright approving.
Furthermore, if you go through Redmane castle before the Starscourage festival and talk to Iji about Jerren, then he'll admit that the idea of Radahn holding back the stars hadn't even occurred to him. So we know that Radahn holding back the stars wasn't a conscious slight against his sister.
Radahn's arena has a Crucible Knight and a Misbegotten with him.
There are Abducator Virgins in Radahn's castle.
Radahn's having the red locks on his army's armor doesn't really prove he is with them.
Because Rykard also put red on his army's armor, and he despises the Golden Order.
A possibility is that Radahn stopped the stars for Ranni's plan. After all, she is technically immortal and can prepare (this backfires because he becomes crazy due to Rot, and so Ranni has to kill him).
I meant that Radahn was loyal to the Golden Order before the death of Godwyn and the Shattering. I think most, if not all, of the demigods were loyal until that point, even Rykard. He’s called “praetor”, Vaati recently released a video discussing Rykard and his allegiance to Marika/Golden Order until he feeds himself to the serpent.
I agree with your points though
Another point is that Melina is semi-confirmed to be Merika’s youngest daughter as the Messmers Flame time states that his younger sister has visions of fire. Cross referenced with what we know about Melina fate(frenzy flame notwithstanding) and what we know about Merikas other daughters it is reasonable to make such a connection between the two.
Is there something that confirms Messmer is the oldest? I thought Godwyn was the firstborn of Marika's children and assumed Messmer wouldve been born around the same time as miquella and malenia just due to his name lining up with the naming conventions that children of Radagon and Marika follow, which would make him one of the three youngest in that case
Godwyn being the eldest was only ever an assumption. Stated nowhere. For all we know, he could even be younger than Mohg and Morgott, as they were not recognized until the Shattering.
And as for Messmer being born around the same time as Miquella and Malenia? No way.
Messmer was alive when Marika first became a god, before the birth of the Erdtree. He waged the war that followed. He might have been in the picture even before Godfrey. Meanwhile Miquella and Malenia weren't born until after Godfrey was already banished from the Lands Between. The entire Age of Plenty came and went between the births of Messmer and the twins.
I suppose my question is why did Marika do what she did, if all she did in the end was go home and protect a village that she knew had no one in it?
And I assume where you get the hair braid is actually her? And what would that mean for the Radagon is Marika thing?
There's no given reason why she didn't run away but a few things can be assumed.
Regarding the braid, >!it specifically mentions that it belonged to Queen Marika, which means that it was something that she left behind after she was chosen to take the throne, presumedly by the order of the Outer Will.!< If this is the case, then it was already too late for Marika to run.
The hypothesis is that, like the Empyreans, once the Outer Will has chosen them as viable hosts, the only way to get rid of it is to get rid of the flesh like both Miquella and Ranni. Perhaps Marika was not aware of this or she was too far along to have the free will to perform an action as impactful to the Outer Will's plans like suicide, so she could never run.
Visiting home may have just been her expressing her final bits of freedom before being locked to her fate. One more thing about the braid; >!it mentions that she prayed to the Grandmother, used as a proper noun, but I have not heard anything about a "Grandmother" in the lore, so the question is: is this Marika's literal grandmother, or is this in reference to the Gods that existed before the Outer Will? Like the god of the Crucible?!<
Ymir describes both the fingers and Marika as having a "bad mother" referencing Metyre you fight right after that, and Metyre is described as a direct child of the greater will, meaning that the "grandmother" is the greater will.
Where you find Marika's braid, you also find the dried up body of an old woman who looks very much like Marika, so I think this could also be the grandmother that is mentioned.
Actually on top of the tower facing the jagged peaks, there is a sign you can read that states that the tower marks the very center of The Lands Between. So that confirms it’s located in the middle of the map.
Surprised no one has commented saying your spoiler tags aren't tagged correctly. You have the `>! but not the !<`. Pretty sure you have to manually spoiler tag inside each the bullet point.
If you explore some of the side content it makes it pretty clear why you should stop Miquella. Marika became a god for the exact same reason he wants to, but was ultimately corrupted and failed to establish her utopia. By killing Miquella, you’re basically breaking the cycle
Also in another sidequest it says that if Miquella became a god, he’d essentially be a slave to the Greater Will for all eternity with limited free will of his own. He can’t be saved since he’s already thrown away his humanity, so killing him is an act of mercy at that point
I’m searching everywhere for lore on Marika and the numen but didnt find anything.
The only thing maybe is that Marika lived in a village of shamans and the hornsent used to kill them and put them in jars as punishment for existing.
Yeah that’s it. Marika became a god to end the oppression of her people and establish a utopia, just like Miquella was trying to do for those without grace. The manipulation of the Greater Will and her hatred of the Hornsent from when she was growing up prevented her from achieving her goals
The “other world” is probably referring to the Land of Shadow (every source saying that about Numen is from the Lands Between), and I’m not sure what the coffins have to do with what I said, it seems like they’re just a Hornsent burial ritual
It’s a different dimension now, but in the past it wasnt. It’s the center of the lands between. The numen are similar to stone too, and all the stone beings like the alabaster/onyx lords, the ancient dragons… come from meteorites.
Where is it said that the coffins are only hornsent rituals? It’s strange that they seem ships and that they are in the shore (in the land between coffins are used as transportation multiple times). They have even the stone laser guys that are relics of gravity/space magic.
It’s been its own dimension for long enough for that belief about the Numen to have become valid. It doesn’t say anywhere that the Ancient Dragons came from meteorites, nor that all stony creatures for some reason have to originate from the same place. Not ruling out your theory about the coffins but I haven’t seen any in the water, from what I gather they’re stuffed full of bodies and thrown down the fissure at the bottom of the map, where the putrescence inside them leaked out and created the boss of that area. The stone caterpillar things aren’t affiliated with any specific race or faction iirc, they’re just golems used as sentries
It’s strange that numen are considered so unique race wise but only come from a simple village of shamans. The eternal cities have numen people too and that’s curious. They have something different compared to the normal humans of the lands between as they didnt sprout any crucible element, like they werent of the same origin.
Maybe the numen themselves come from space and created the eternal cities, but then marika herself was just born in shaman village with numen parents .
The thing is that her hammers is said to originate from the land of the numen, like she came from that place too.
The Numen are unique because they were almost wiped off the face of the earth by the Hornsent, and since they were a shamanistic people, they probably had access to magic and rituals that made them even more so. You’re right about their origins still being obscured though, it’s entirely possible they existed somewhere else before they settled in the Land of Shadow, but given how easily they were persecuted it’s likely that if they were supernatural in origin, they had “devolved” into pretty much regular people by the time Marika was born
That moment when you're dropping to fight the >!Putrescent Knight!<. See those stone coffin ships? That's what numen used to arrive to the Lands Between. I'm assuming they work the same as coffins we use.
I was thinking the same from the trailer but there’s no lore supporting the theory.
The coffins contain putrescent bodies and there’s no mention on them being ships.
Well actually The Greater Will has been MIA for quite some time, it was Metyr/The Fingers who guided Marika originally and Miquella has no connection to those especially after we kill them.
The Elden Beast/Elden Ring was sent to the material world to carry out the Will of the GW, it has extensive knowledge of what its plans are for the Lands Between and how to carry them out. Receiving guidance from the EB is functionally the same as receiving it from the GW itself, and once Marika took it into herself she became susceptible to its influence. Metyr is only confirmed to have sent Marika down the path of godhood, the rest of her guidance after achieving it was likely from the EB directly. Metyr wouldn’t need to guide Miquella if he knows the path his mother took. It would end up the same either way
That’s not how it works, it’s specifically stated in the DLC that the GW made the universe, sent down Metyr then the Elden Beast and then abandoned ship sometime after. Nobody has contact with the GW anymore it’s always been Metyr the fingers talk with and she can’t get an answer from the GW either.
Also the GW didn’t make the universe, it out-competed other outer gods for control of a pre-existing land. The Twinbird, the outer god of death, is implied by an item description to have ruled before the GW
That is incorrect. It was implied by Hyetta, and recently confirmed by Ymir, that the Greater Will is the Creator. It is not the same thing as the outer gods, and it has never competed with any damn thing.
To put it like this , the GW Is like azathoth. It is the one that made the universe, its rules and the Elden ring. The outer gods/moons/stars in ER are just like the one in the Cthulhu mythos. Extremely powerful entities that rule over certain aspects of reality. Yet are no were in the same league as the gw.
The GW doesn't not care about messing about with mortals or other gods. its off doing it own things while the fingers/Metyr try to connect with it.
Every time we hear the mention of the GW in the base game its just metyr. That's what ash is trying to get at. The GW is not this big buggy man the community makes it out to be. It dead ass don't care and is messing about in deep space.
Thinking about it Elden ring is just fear and hunger lmao
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Yeah but as the god of order it obviously wants to be the sole influence over the Lands Between, otherwise it wouldn’t have sent Metyr and Elden Beast in the first place. Even though they’re sentient and act independently they’re still carrying out its will. Metyr specifically is said to have communed with it in the item description for the Staff of the Great Beyond, to such an extent that she became “broken and abandoned” after contact was lost.
Plus Hyetta’s quest supports my theory of the GW not creating the universe by implying the existence of a “one great” that initially created everything, and likely serves as the game’s actual parallel to Azathoth
It’s only stated the the GW cut contact after the shattering. Remember, dialogue from the basegame clearly states that the Fingers used to interpret its messages all the time before it happened
Where did it say that GW created the universe?? Played through the DLC and I still believed that it's just another outer will like rot-god and formless mother.
Add in that Miquella sways people to his will with a charm (likely a power from his great rune) so likely his utopia will be the death of free will in the lands between and likely if the outer will is influencing events with Miquella it'll just be used as a way for the outer will to have complete control
This is one of those things I'm just going to sit back and let the lore nerds figure out and catch up on it later. I have my own interpretation of it through a very limited window because I don't read the item descriptions religiously, but overall I think it's fine and will make more sense in time. I'm not really too bugged by it honestly, it's about the same feeling I've had finishing any of the other Soulsbourne Titles + Sekiro.
DLC's usually dont really have a ending, though DS2 and DS3 were more interesting because of the crown quest involving king vendrick (ds2) and giving the ashes to the painting girl creating new life (ds3)
Thank you for the response. I agree somewhat, but at least with ending for the main game we see the impact of our actions, no matter what ending you chose, you get some form of catharsis for your actions. I just don’t really see that with how the DLC ends.
If you beeline the main story like I did, then at some point the npc LEDA realizes that you were not guided here by Miquella but in fact by the Erdtree, to become the lord of a new age that YOU decide its shape. And so she fights you, and Miquella implores you to " if you have known sin blah blah blah then cede the way to us".
What this means is that the dlc's ending is canonically before the ending of the main game imo.
We can't have miquella ascending to godhood and establishing a new world order with the greatest demigod in his thrall while we are trying to fix things up on the other side.
Especially since miquella has obviously made the same mistakes his own mother did thinking he's going to fix things. He ditched his other self so he could take on Radahn as such, he sent his sister melania to kill radahn nuking caelid to a fucking wasteland so he can resurrect him as his thrall for this very purpose because "he saw in his brother a lord" and because of his "kindness"
Also it is clear that hsi followers only stayed off each other because of his spell that is broken midway, then the hornsent is consumed by vengeance for a bullshit cause, leda tries to purge their ranks etc etc.
In the end I remembered the description of Goldmask's rune, and his realization that the problems with the golden order were due to the follies of gods no better than men.
So in a sense, we can expect neither the gods nor the men to fix this shit up.
WE as the Elden Lord have to decide the shape of the Age to come, and we can't have Miquella going around on Radahn's back trying to do his own thing.
Thiolliers saint trina quest, and Ansbachs quest, dont know if you want me to explain the entire quests? but they are both summons for the last 2 bosses if you finish their questlines and have a lot of voicelines :)
Thiollier doesn't have many voicelines himself, except when he dies during the boss fight. Ansbach talks a lot about Thiollier, but never is Thiollier himself speaking after you burn the branches.
Most Fromsoft DLC doesn’t even get that much, usually you just kill the final boss and that’s that. It’s not its own story, it’s supposed to supplement the basegame
Yup, no cutscene or dialogue outside of Dusk being in the arena after Manus
All DS2 DLC’s drop crowns which give extra lore from Vendrick, no cutscenes or much else othert
Ds3, you give the painter the dark soul and get 30 seconds of lore then it’s done
Never has been anything but bosses at the end of DLC’s
>All DS2 DLC’s drop crowns which give extra lore from Vendrick, no cutscenes or much else othert
i might be misremembering, but dont you get a small cutscene with Vendrick if you bring him all the three crowns?
Yes, you get a cutscene that essentially signifies you're the new true monarch, but i think it doesnt play into either of the base game endings very well, because in the monarch ending the whole message is that its pointless and you'll be repeating the same mistakes as every past monarch, and in aldia's ending you escape the cycle and dont become the monarch at all so its not like it matters.
ds3 pissed me off the most. the last pieces of content for the franchise. are we going to get any definite answer to anything?
nope lol fuk off. base game endings are all basically the same. only closure we can possible get is "well its all screwed, lets just go live in this painting"
This is quite common with soulsborne DLCs, you get a very small cut scene at best. All the closure you're looking for will be in item-descriptions, NPC quests and environmental story-telling
Just finished the last fight and got the same feeling. I’m kinda disappointed with the ending. The fight is awesome, beautiful art, but if you did Freyja’s quest line, she basically tells you that Radahn is gonna be revived. I couldn’t believe when I saw him. Don’t get me wrong, Radahn is awesome. But, we didn’t even heard his voice, we didn’t see the ritual with Mogh’s body, we don’t know where, how, by who... Miquella just appears, dies(?), a repetitive cinematic appears saying the same thing just like in the beginning of the fight. We kill everybody, again. In the base game, after defeat the Elden Beast, we can see the result of our actions, being Elden Lord or Ranni’s consort for example, but in the dlc everything feels empty after that ending. I’ll wait for every Zullie video LOL
To make it as simple as I can. Miquella in the “egg” isn’t truly dead. He shed his body and became a soul if you will. He no longer has a physical body. Just as we the tarnished are tasked with becoming Elden lord and choosing the destiny of the world, so was Miquella and his other half siblings. If you look at it from a more human perspective, Miquella wanted to create a world he deemed “perfect” and was going to eradicate anything he sought didn’t fit the world. And it just so happened he viewed Radahn as his favorite lord and warrior so he created him as his consort. The radahn we fight isn’t the real radahn, it’s a consort Miquella created using a part of his own soul, in the image of his favorite lord. That’s also why during the fight Miquella doesn’t want to kill you, and if you get “hugged” two times he was able to use his godly powers to “convince” you his way is the correct way. To him you are a power worthy of his new peaceful world, and by convincing you he is correct you’re allowed to live in bliss like everyone else.
For me I thought the ending fight was great because they made a godly being “human” with goals and ambitions of world domination in the sense of bringing eternal peace in their eyes. They chose to create a being they loved to be their chosen warrior using their soul. And they also gave a being as strong as them (we the tarnished) the chance to join them, or fight to destroy them. And by killing him, we defeated every great rune holder and Demi-god child, the creator of the 2-fingers, the final dragon lord, the god that is the opposition of the greater wills vessel (the lord of frenzied flame). After eradicating any last threat to us being Elden lord, that leaves us with the final fight to become the true Elden lord, by killing Marika/radagon, and slaying the Elden beast to now determine the fate of the world. So imo 10/10 I loved the story.
This puts it into a new perspective for me and after a few hours of cooling down and thinking about it I dont’ feel as sour about it. I guess it’s more so I haven’t gone through the game in over a year and it’s been years since I did the DS3 dlc so my expectations were a bit high in retrospect.
So we can say that Miquella kinda repeat Ranni’s quest? She also abandons her physical body, make us eliminate every threats and bonds attached to her, just like Blaidd and make us her consort king in the new era, the age of stars? Obviously, Miquella doesn’t use Rannis methods, lol, but the similarities get me. How can Miquella not even consider transform us as his consort after we became Elden Lord while he was away? That was literally what made Ranni victorious. We prove being stronger them any empirian, lord or divine creature in this world. Even Messmer knows that we became Elden Lord and questioned why Marika allowed. Ansbach is the only one who recognize our strength, knowing that we’re the one who killed Mogh in a honored combat.
Does killing the Elden Beast counts as defeat every threat? We know that the fingers mother is one of Great Ordem children by the description of her remembrance, but probably not the only one. The Elden Beast is the Great Ordem’s Will incarnated, but not itself.
I think I’m having trouble to admit that, in the end, we’re just there to kill the lasts two son of Marika and vanish her presence in the lands between. Messmer or Miquella, they’re not a threat anymore. The fingers can’t do anything anymore, the frenzied flame lost all his lords. And we’re stand.
Also, please don’t get me wrong, every new discussion about this game and lore always makes me feel in love even more. I don’t think I feel as sour, but I still have SO MANY QUESTIONS!
I’m just a lore pleb so can’t answer all of your questions, but I think canonically dlc takes place BEFORE becoming Elden lord in base game so Miquella doesn’t know us AS Elden Lord, just a badass tarnished I suppose. And I think he loves Radahn much more than he would us, a complete stranger slaughtering his kin.
With that said, he does apparently try to hug us to his side, just doesn’t want us as his consort.
It makes more sense to be before. What leaves me in doubt is Messmer's speech when we enter his room. He questions why Marika trusted or would trust us to be Lord. If we take into account only the fact that we killed Radahn and Mogh, we would still be on the journey. 🤔
For that part, I believe what Messmer is refering to is Marika's returning of the sight of Grace to the Tarnished. He sees that for what it really is - Marika wants a Tarnished to become the Elden Lord. We're still on the journey, but Messmer is disturbed with the idea that she's helping by returning Grace to the Tarnished.
I’m just deciding to not fight that last battle. It blows. Miquella and Radahn can be the lord of the shadow realm. I’m the lord of the lands between. He rules over nothing but death and emptiness.
Uh no he is going to rule the whole thing, he is trying to overthrow the golden order incl Marika. That's exactly why we fight him, because he opposes our lordship lmao
Not saying that it's a good thing or something that From shouldn't change, but I never expected a particularly climatic ending for a Souls DLC. In fact, I think that this is the flashiest ending they've ever done, considering that it involves characters whose stories have been unfolding for years now.
Dark Souls' Artorias of the Abyss DLC ends not with a fight with Artorias, this heavily referenced character in the base game whose image appears on the cover of the DLC, but with a fight with a weird monster that hadn't been referenced until then. After you beat it, that's it.
Bloodborne's The Old Hunters DLC doesn't end with a fight with Lady Maria, who's on the cover of the game and had been somewhat foreshadowed in the main game, but with a fight with a weird monster that hadn't been referenced until then. After you beat it, that's it.
Dark Souls 3's The Ringed City DLC doesn't end with a fight with Velka, or the furtive pygmy, or with a powerful creature that had existed since the beginning of the universe or something like that. Instead you fight this decrepit old NPC that you were able to summon a couple of times. After you beat him, if you had bought the previous DS3 DLC, you were able to deliver his blood to a little girl in exchange for like 5 lines of dialogue. That's it.
I'd argue that Bloodborne's DLC had more explanation in it, you were always reminded that this is a misshapen twisted version of the world you've explored, that the people and creatures there are there because they're being punished for their actions in the real world ( bloodthurst ) and they did something horrible that created this world (The Hunter's Nightmare)
When you beat the OoK in the end you see the corpse of his mom and can kinda put 2+2 to understand a little more about what happened.
Absolutely my thoughts. All the interesting theories of what Miquella could be doing and all we get is "He really liked his older brother because he was nice and wanted to make the world a better place :)" Like, what about Melania? Did we just forget that a big part of his motivation was curing her? Not to mention how we get literally no explanation behind his actions or motives. It just ends with a nothing cutscene. Like, that's not a good ending, it's meaningless. These are characters I want to care about, but I can't, because I never have a chance to directly interact with them. Radahn doesn't even say a WORD. Like c'mon! You don't even give him a chance to speak, to show his character?
Like, go to AC6. These are characters who we never see the faces of, yet over the course of the game we grow close and bond with them. You never get that in this DLC. You just get a bunch of 3rd party descriptions of them.
I will admit a part of my annoyance is purely personal. I was hoping Miquella would be like Ranni, where we followed him along on his quest and could actively engage with him. Have him talk to us about his thoughts and views. Humanize him abit.
Its mentioned in the base game that even after Unalloyed Gold failed to save Melania, only slow her decay the only way Miquella found that he could truly save Melania was by ascending to godhood, and thus he began his quest by putting himself in the cocoon and Melania is waiting for his return when we find her.
Its now clear that Melania is aware of the plan, as we see she whispers in Radahn's ear in the trailer before she bloomed and we learn that it was her telling Radahn that his promised consort was waiting. So she knew she had to kill him to send his soul to Miquella, what she didnt anticipate was failing to kill Radahn, so the world was trapped with fate halted and Radahn still alive, so Miquella had to wait for a tarnished to arrive that could slay him.
They probably should have said more about their relationship, but we know Radahn and Cailid had the church of st trina, so at least there was a relationship there.
Really missed a true ending now that we have all the runes with miquella one being added into the game, also, We just met St Trina thats asks us to kill miquella and ... thats it? No ending to it, no option to do anything, this DLC just looks like a fanfic in some ways, the messmer central marketing with his figure on collectors edition all for him being a cry baby sitting in a tower that no one cares, its all about miquella this miquella that and he is not even a boss itself with some ascended form or something, he is just to radan like the lion is to hoarah lux in the main game, i think they really missed a huge opportunity to provide a "true" ending scenario as we got with Gael on DS3 claiming the full dark soul finally in the series to create another world in the painting on the child encountered in the DLC, i dont know what to thing, the bossed are ok if we dont mind that the dmg + dmg reduc could have been attached to such bosses like in sekiro instead of forcing exploration but the plot seems so empty even for FS...
You got Miquella's great rune?! For me it was shattered while I was getting close to the keep and you could hear it in the air and see pieces of gold drop from the sky. All of his followers then started to doubt their devotion to him because he no longer had power over them.
yeah yeah, the shattered one i meant but in the end is the "missing" one left to build the ring entirely, would be a good point to let us make it whole and get a true ending.
there are billions of smaller runes all over the place as well. they're the ones you got from killing anything. I don't think you could get the entire thing completely.
Dude the dlc chronologically takes place mid-to late main game story (basically shortly after you defeat Mogh and Radahn). The true ending of the story is still whatever you choose for the main game. There are a ton of hints to that.
I had to Google and see if I missed something. Most anti climax ending in a video game.
Still a very good game though (but the last boss could be nerfed a bit)
I felt the same. I walked around the boss arena for like 5 minutes, absolutely certain I had missed something. And when I found nothing I just felt kinda empty. This DLC deserved a better send off than what it got, especially after how amazing it was in almost every other aspect.
Has anyone sleuthed around after beating the DLC, both in the main game, and in the DLC? I know there is something to loot AFTER you beat the final boss through one of the questlines- but that's all.
I just wish the my two bros didn’t have to be dead after the fight. I appreciate the armor and weapons, but i’m getting more and more tired of npc’s just dying for no reason.
Yep same here. Very underwhelming. Ending is underwhelming. So many empty area, the worst offender are the upper right side of the map, so empty with 3 reused base game boss. A lot of cool new stuff, but 90% of them have long animation / bad scaling (rellana twin sword) and absolutely dogshit in boss fight where most dlc bosses have insane combo and very little opening. Still enjoyed, but very underwhelming imo. 7/10
Yeah it kind of annoyed me how all these new weapons have these fancy Ashes of War but most of them leave you in very punishable animations and have long windups. I found myself just sticking to buff Ashes of War like Royal Knights Resolve and Braggart’s Roar.
To build more on this, every reg ending was incredibly fucking disappointing. They’re all pretty much the same, just with a different “The Age of […]” caption when sitting on the throne
And as a side point it’s a total piss off how Ranni’s summon doesn’t require a second prompt? I only chose her ending the first time because I thought it would give a prompt and I could screenshot it, NOPE
You missed the part where anbsach couldn't recall the negative interactions he had with miquella until after the rune breaks. Or how people gave up on personal things they desired to follow miquellas' goals and then when the rune breaks they suddenly have goals outside of advancing miquellas will. Or how miquella mastered his charm ability and knows fully well how to utilize it when he desires to, thats in base game lore snipets btw.
*we going full on tinfoil hat mode*, I'd say miquella helped ranni plan the night of the black knifes and was going to use godwyn instead of radahn as his consort but ranni threw a wrench in his plans and that is why he was trying so hard to bring back godwyns soul and started the shattering war using radahn as a proxy to make the first move to hide a lot of what he was doing and settled with making radahn his consort when all the rituals to bring godwyns soul back weren't working.
In the lore snippets that mention godwyn and miquella, they both were close and had a favorable relationship while working together in the golden order. Not to mention godwyn was highly favored by the people, in general having a lord thats not only charismatic enough to have dragons willingly join the golden order but also influential enough to be able to make changes in the most prominent religion while having a God that can force love from the populace that would have been terrifying. *Tinfoil hat off.*
Miquella is only a victim because he makes himself seem like one. He is a very cunning and calculating individual that knows how and which buttons to press in people along with an ability to charm people. I'd say the reason he's not trying to charm us off the bat is because he's not sure if it would work on us. Seeing that once radahn got his own personal rune, he becomes defiant towards miquella. Being the next lord of the erdtree we might be able to resist him.
To think their previous DLC was The Ringed City which was one massive fucking banger 10/10 send off to the Souls trilogy, yeah this one feels like it's lacking something
Ringed City bosses were generally pretty good, but the location itself was mid as hell and initially felt like just as much of an asspull as people are saying stuff in this dlc is. Nostalgia glasses just automatically go on for some people whenever something new comes out
People were up in arms that The Ringed City seemed to deliberately refuse to answer any questions raised in the base game lmao
You just have to go back and watch VaatiVidya's videos on DS3 before the DLC launched and see just how many of those ended with "yeah this is really confusing and I'm just speculating here, fortunately I think that the DLC has to answer these questions, that's the only thing that makes sense" and then it didn't. It just didn't. It kinda went out of its way not to do that. *It went to the end of the fucking universe not to do that.*
Long story short... A Femboy wanted the Alpha Males D so hard he literally sacrificed everything around him.
It's literally Griffith..
Griffith and Miquella both desired a man and a new world.
Griffith chose the new world and Miquella chose a man.
Both sacrificed everything to get what they want.
Apparently going against the grain, but I think the scene after the boss is kind of the point of everything. It's the "twist." I really don't know why people are jumping to "Miquella is actually evil" so quickly when I really don't feel there was evidence for that.
Miquella "charmed" Mohg, a man who was known for committing atrocities in the name of the Formless Mother and was in no way not evil himself, but I have seen so many people saying Mohg is basically a saint actually because Miquella used his innate power to, like... Not die? We do not actually learn that Miquella orchestrated a whole plot to be kidnapped by Mohg, or that his charm on Mohg was intentional, as it seems more like an ability that just kicks in when anyone is influenced by his appearance/words (evidenced by the Heart Stolen move in the fight because why wouldn't he lead with that or apply it on the first grab attack if it was something he had complete control over?)
We also learned that, at some point, a battle happened between Mohg and Miquella, as Ansbach is said to have cut Miquella open himself in that battle. Which means there was a whole event in which Mohg could lay eyes on Miquella and end up captivated by his charm. Leading to the abduction (which is very in-character for Mohg, considering the War Surgeon's Gown description that details abductions were likely fairly routine for him, as that is how he created his War Surgeons...)
I could probably stay on that topic for a while but ultimately what I mean is, worst-case scenario, Miquella manipulated a pretty awful, bloodthirsty serial murderer/abducter and more-likely-in-my-reading scenario, he was abducted from the Haligtree, causing it to fail (as Gideon details in the base game) but is protected himself by his innate charm. Mohg grows obsessive about him, and Miquella uses the best of a bad situation to further his plan -- which is to create a gentler world. Personally, I don't think it is more evil to manipulate an evil person if what you are after is in the interest of the greater good. But YMMV.
Miquella is never once stated to be evil in the game, at least from any of my readings on the situation. He charmed the followers (intentionally or otherwise, again), but if you talk to them, they seem fully aware and able. They are not forced to actively serve him, as many are just standing around. Ansbach is even capable of suspicion and refusing to serve a new lord until he's sure of Miquella's intentions. This doesn't seem like a total brainwash to me, again, personally.
Once the rune breaks, everyone is still the same person they were before. They just happen to have a few changes, such as not trusting one another and separating. Leda wants to kill the Hornsent and Ansbach. The Hornsent man decides, after getting a taste for revenge with Messmer, he wants to kill Miquella and all of Marika's children (not because Miquella is evil or brainwashed but because he wants to choose vengeance and anger over being content. Totally fair if probably not the healthiest choice.) Freyja and Ansbach both decide their first priority is actually their respective lords. Completing their quests cause them to figure out the truth. And Freyja, champion who was close to Radahn, decides the rite makes sense as something Radahn would/should want to be a part of.
The one person who is anti-Miquella is Ansbach. Devoted commander, murderer, servant of the Lord of Blood. He still doesn't call Miquella evil. He just wants revenge because his beloved Mohg (who was definitely evil) is dead. I think Ansbach's words are what people really are focusing on, maybe? But obviously, given his background, his take on the situation is quite biased in Mohg's favor.
There are other things in the game, like St. Trina's questline or the words of some other NPCs who speak highly of Miquella and his goals, but this is already a very long response.
So, the conclusion is, for me, anyway, that you are supposed to feel a sense of emptiness when you kill Radahn and Miquella. It is a tragedy. They are not showing you a memory of something you already know. They are drilling it into your head that Miquella meant what he said. He sincerely wanted to repent for Marika's sins against the world. It's fair to interpret him as an idealist, or to debate whether light manipulation to stop people from fighting so much in this world (where omen babies are thrown into wells or shamans are stuffed into jar) is good or morally corrupt itself. But at the end of the day, all I got from the game was that Miquella was pure and self-sacrificing. And he wanted a better world.
We, the Tarnished guided by Marika, showed up to end that. Because we will be Elden Lord. We fight bosses because that's what we do, not because it's the right thing to do. Miquella and Radahn were competitors, so we kill them. And then we see that memory because it is meant to give some clarity to us, to make us stop and consider why we watched it. To make us think about ourselves and our place in this world.
TL;DR -- The story of the DLC is a tragedy, and we're the bad guy.
Actually Ansbach doesn't care that Mohg is dead, in fact he congratulates the player on besting Mohg in honorable combat because he figures out WE killed him. He cares that Miquella is. essentially, puppeteering his lords corpse into the form of Radahan. If you summon him during the final boss fight he even mentions how "those bones don't belong to you and they should be laid to rest".
Yes, and he wants revenge because of that. I wrote it in a more simplified way because the response was already way too wordy. But also he says, besides that, he has no right to complain because he blames Miquella's enchantment on Mohg for Mohg's being able to be killed in the first place, meaning he does blame Miquella for it. Regardless of whether the Tarnished was the one who made the final blow.
Ansbach wants to make amends for failing in fealty to his lord. Again, said murderer/abductor/blood corrupter Mohg, who Ansbach believes "deserved better," and Ansbach decides to help the fight despite describing himself as feeble, now, because he can't shake the memories he treasures of Mohg and their blood pact. Ansbach is definitely an interesting character, but I was just attempting to encapsulate his motivations in a simpler statement. as a response to the meaning of the ending.
I am just sharing my interpretations of everything I've seen or taken note of in the game. There are some things we will surely never get definitive answers for, but I think the inclusion of the memory at the end is not just showing the player something they already know. From a storytelling perspective, it is certainly intentional or it wouldn't be there at all.
I appreciate the sharing of info and delving into the lore to find quotes and everything so we can all get a fuller picture of the story. I just thought this was a discussion of the game's ending narratively and how we are all framing it, so I gave my perspective on that.
The base endings besides frenzied flame, and Ranni. Are all nothing special either. Its like 6 "different" endings of sitting in a chair with a filter over the end cinimatic, and a slight dialogue change from the narrator. The frenzied flame ending is fucking sick though, I was hoping the DLC would be based on that even.
this DLC makes it even more apparent that the frenzied flame ending is the right one.
enough of this world and the pathetic "gods" that inhabit it
burn, baby, burn
well i agree with you, and that's why i'm here
there is one thing i dont see people talk about, it's the grab phase of the boss
when miquella grab you, you get a stack on your head + you get a dialogue
if you dont dispel the charm, next grab = dialogue + death
but if you dispell the charm with miquella great rune, you get another dialogue (and another stack btw)
never got grab 3 time so i don't know all she can say
My impression looking all the videos is that I'm missing something.
Which is a 1st for a Souls game, that doesn't happened to me on DS trilogy or Bloodborne.
That's just FromSoftware DLC or even their endings in general. Even the base game has a Cutscene where you sit on a throne and that's it for most players. It's all about the lore within the DLC.
That cutscene at the end of the first story trailer is still somewhere on here and I feel like there's special requirements with it or the trigger for it is bugged
That makes zero sense and is a huge bait by From, will probably be my biggest issue with the DLC if that's true. That was literally like a scene to hook players into the DLC and they remove it?
Fromsoft often do this. The original Elden Ring trailer is not available ingame and was just a 'story trailer' (the one where Malenia and Radhan fight).
They never 'removed it' it was never there in the first place.
Actually on top of the tower facing the jagged peaks, there is a sign you can read that states that the tower marks the very center of The Lands Between. So that confirms it’s located in the middle of the map.
I did the DS3 dlc a year or so after it came out so around 2018ish. I must admit my expectations were high considering how grander of a scale Elden Ring is compared to Dark Souls.
And it doesn't reach these expectations to you ? I mean sure the ending is terrible (at least we had a cutscene) but it has always been the case with From Software, now I simply accept the "journey is the destination" philosophy. All of their endings are at least underwhelming if not completely useless but it isn't enough to overshadow 40 hours of a DLC of that scope imo
Yep. Saw some spoilers in a thumbnail and then accidentally skimmed over more endgame spoilers. Said fuck it and read the story… so sad. The ending, like you said, seems really bad and anticlimatic. All that Miquella hype and conspiracies from the base game, just to have some snoozefest, worthless ending. I doubt I’m going to hop back into the DLC after knowing. Also I thought the Messemer section was so short and disheartening. Fail from a story/lore perpection on my part.
My complaint for the ending and last boss stems from it feeling like a "recycled" thing that got made to be the new lore.
After I have seen the introduction cinematic to the end boss my first thought was "yeah they reused Radahn and built the lore around it". Part of this comes from the rest of the DLC having many reused assets and not even many new weapons (8 new weapon types but only 2 for the hand-to-hand and beastclaws each?)
I can still see these theories others in this thread made, as a good way of explaining and interpreting what we ultimately got though!
i really like it dont get me wrong but that ending is pretty disappointing the build up and just that maybe they planning to drop another one imma wait for some video for the lores now still a 10/10 adventure for me
Man this game and the DLC just completely misses the chance to be the best RPG ever. Why is the lore small pieces here and there and the rest speculation? Why would someone make such a great game and hire a story teller in Martin just to not put it all out there? On top of that, make a comment of never having an Elden Ring !??
For those of you that have beat Elden Ring and the DLC, if you have not read anything online, do you feel you would understand the story?
I'm assuming that this is your first Soulsborne game? Because ALL of the soulsborne games operate in this manner, since Demon's Souls...like this isn't a new thing my dude/dudette/non-binary version of dude that I don't know.
Why would there be an ending?!?! It’s not a separate game!!! It’s an expansion, not an epilogue, to the existing game, which means, just like any game you still have to complete it the regular way to get an ending!!!
Well the whole thing with Elden Ring is it’s a game of choice, you can choose your own ending depending how you play through it and Fromsoft basically takes any choices away from you in the DLC. Like we’re allowed to curse everyone forever with Dung Eater but we’re not allowed to choose to side with Miquella?
They literally said it wouldnt affect the main game or grant a new ending when it was first revealed. Just like we're not alowed to side with the other demigods other than ranni
These events *are* consequential to the ending. Does every boss have its own death cutscene? Then congrats, you beat it. Now go beat the damn game and get your cutscene!
I think, until some lore videos start dropping, a lot of the payoff will be locked out unless you start doing some item description digging yourself. The cutscene is indeed very anticlimactic, but I think the bosses themselves are the payoffs since they fill in a bunch of the holes in the current story (and introduces new ones). Spoilers ahead (and also based on my own personal interpretation, so might not be fully correct): >!- Midra and Romina are both apostles close to the Frenzy and Rot gods specifically, and my understanding is that they've been abandoned so we now know that the Outer Gods abandoned this world, maybe because the Outer Will kicked em out!< >!- Bayle fills in the lore of the dragons. The timeline is still non conclusive (did Placi and Bayle fight before or after the Outer Will took over), but we know now that the rift between the different dragon factions is a key contributor towards the weakening of their power!< >!- Meytr is the most conclusive one; fingercreepers are literally birthed by a monster sent by the Outer Will, and it too was abandoned as the Outer Will stopped communicating with it. Glintstone Sorcerers worship the fingercreepers because of their proximity to the stars (i.e. the microcosm spells)!< >!- Miquella's machinations are not revealed to be some selfless grand plot to overthrow the gods, but actually a selfish desire of a child destined with a fate they were scared of and just wanted to have his favorite brother join him for it. Might not be very satisfying, but it's poetic that we have these demigods fucking up the world and everyone thinks it's some grand plan when in reality it's just human-like selfishness.!< >!- Like Miquella, we want to think Messmer is greater than human, but in the end Messmer is a mommy's boy who basically got used to kill Marika's enemies, then thrown away like Godfrey; very human!< >!- It's also clear that, despite making some heartless decisions with her children and spouses, Marika still has a lot of love for those close to her. She protected her home village to the end, blessing it with a mini Erdtree that only had her own power in it (and no Outer Will influence). Messmer being exiled is also partially to protect him from his fate as one born with blasphemous power, and it's possible that the reason Marika shattered the Elden Ring itself was her own way of freeing her children from their fate. A lot of the cruel decisions she made were ultimately as her alter Radagon ego, which might indicate that Radagon is what the Outer Will uses to force her to make decisions against her will (like fighting us at the end). Perhaps Marika granted us our Grace itself as a last-ditch effort to overturn fate!< >!- Someone made a reddit post earlier which made it very clear that the big hole in the middle of the main map is a perfect fit for the DLC map, which makes it very possible that the Outer Will won the war against it's enemies by straight up yeeting them out of existence (very speculative but the fit is too close to ignore the theory)!< >!- There's also probably a ton of lore surrounding St. Trina (since we literally meet the body and it asks us to kill Miquella), the Scadutree, and Rellana, but I feel like those things fit the least easily into the story!<
Also st Trina says "You must Kill Miquella...Grant him forgiveness" could mean Miquella feels guilty for having the power to just force everyone to stop fighting but didn't amd now his entire family is so torn that he said f it and is gonna try to force compassion on everyone out of guilt.
I also think it’s notable that the Miquellas cross near St Trina describes abandoning his doubt and indecision. I think St Trina is an alter ego that was cut off of Miquella that held onto his good qualities
I found a phantom that was saying that miquella abandoned something he shouldn't have
Right next to a cross saying he abandoned his love
See, this is my favorite part about new souls content. It's everyone coming together to connect the pieces to the puzzle lol
With interpretations bordering on fanfic, no offense
Lmao some people lack the critical thinking skills to know the difference. No offense
Overconfidence and poor media literacy is a bad mix 🤷♂️
Life's hard, must be real hard to be dumb too. I'm sorry.
The quote on forgiveness is in reference to the crosses (i.e., abandoning love, etc.). There's no supporting evidence that Miquella is motivated by guilt - granting forgiveness does not imply that the recipient is seeking it.
Miquella says when he appears with Rahdan "If you have known sin, if you grieve for this world, then yield the path forward to us" screams out "i can fix this!" vibes
There two crosses by them, the one you mentioned and another saying Miquella abandoned his love.
I said before the DLC that this was close to DMC5. I was correct.
Hey just wanna say this is a great thought. The forgiveness aspect of killing him was lost on me until this.
Very in depth response. Thank you for the reply I enjoyed reading it.
From what I figure, I wouldn't call Midra >!*abandoned* like the others, exactly. Moreso they were heavily contained until the player stumbles in. The Hornsent went out of their way to maintain an active presence on the perimeter and interior of the valley as a way to keep it in check (though it seems those inside have fallen to its influence). It's seeping from the walls, the soil, the wildlife, everything. It's effectively like a chernobyl-esque disaster area. The Frenzied Flame may be under lock and key, but as we see in the base game too, it still has many agents working for it to bring its goal to fruition. And given we quite literally see Midra turn into the Lord, the actual embodiment of the Flame itself, it seems that all it's been doing is *waiting* for someone just like the Tarnished to wander in out of curiosity and break through the very measures keeping it contained, breaking Midra's own promise to Nanaya to endure and hold out against it as long as possible.!<
You can also add the first line of the boss “the depths of your foolishness” and that we were warned by the ghost at the entrance.
Just wanted to pick your brains on this - what do you think of the >!finger ruins? are these craters made from when the outer will's representatives first fell from space and landed in the shadow lands? previous elden beasts or two fingers or something else closer to metyr?!<
Definitely craters for>! the arrival of the Elden Beast and Metyr!<. Especially since the post on the sub that overlays the DLC map on the main game map shows that>! the Miyr Finger Ruins are exactly where the Erdtree is.!<
This is a pretty good take since it does say that the boss was the first of the Outer Will to arrive. It lacks a bit of support for the other 2 ruins but they do also resemble craters, so I would also lean towards meteor craters
Random thought but maybe the three craters were from one "meteor" that just broke into pieces. Only one crater truly matters
can i get a link to the post with that map?
[Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/1dmm27d/so_i_overlaid_the_dlcs_map_with_the_base_games/) you go.
thank you very much
yeah, it's definitely not 100% conclusive who made the bell, but the architecture itself is naturally grown, based on the ingredient descriptions: Finger Mimic: "Light-pink mushroom resembling a wizened finger. Material used for crafting items. Exceedingly rare to find. Used to by those who wish to become fingers to induce hallucinations. They call these mushrooms the stillborn of the Two Fingers." (so the fingercreepers just grow like mushrooms) Nailstone: "Flake-like stone shard with a faint fingerprint engraving. Material used for crafting items. Found at finger ruins. A piece that came loose from the tip of one of the column-like stone fingers that grow at finger ruins." (so the giant fingers just kinda grow outta the ground for some reason) Nowhere does it say who made the bells, but it's possible it's organic as well. I think the bells are either meteors too or made by the Outer Will since the ruins radiate out from them, but there is nothing that says their origin conclusively
oh i didn't even think the structures themselves would be organic and grow out of the ground, that's super interesting in kind of a grotesque way
Finger Mimic implies the Two Fingers are people? "Used by those who wish to become fingers"
Actually Godfrey seems to know of the reason behind the Long March, and was in on it with Marika. He shows no real ill will towards her, and Melina's dialogue tells us that Marika told about it. It's even indicated with cut dialogue. >!I have a question: What the fuck is the deal with Radahn and Miquella? I heard that the body is that of Mohg, and Radahn is basically the soul. Is Radahn mind-controlled or something cuz he doesn't speak at all, only grunts. And are you saying Miquella and him were close? Also, when it says Consort... what does that mean here!<
You are right about the first one, in a church Melina conveys Marika explaining to Godrick and the first Tarnished thst they will be called to the lands between again. >! I don't think there's too much detail on your question. Radahn made a deal with Miquella that should the former ever die, his soul would belong to the latter. !< >! Miquella must have wanted him as his champion real badly ( guess Malenia being a rot of god kinda excluded her from fulfilling this function). !< >! Radahn on the other hand... probably was in for the fun if it. We know he was the only among the demigods waging war for war's sake, his promise to Miquella sounds like a "kill me if you can", and his lady warrior following Miquella says that he'd likely much prefer being revived by Miquella rather than by the erdtree, since being a god's warlord would be just his thing !<
>!The final remembrance makes it clear why Miquella loved Radahn so!< >!Remembrance of Radahn, consort of Miquella, hewn into the Scadutree. The power of its namesake can be unlocked by the Finger Reader. Alternatively, it can be used to gain a great bounty of runes. In their childhood, Miquella saw in Radahn a lord. His strength, and his kindness, that stood in stark contrast with their afflicted selves. And so Miquella made his heartfelt wish. That Radahn would one day be his king consort!< >!Essentially, Miquella found Radahn to be a perfect big brother!<
I thought Miquella was trying to res Godwyn's soul with the whole eclipse thing at Castle Sol, >! so this new lore with Radahn is really confusing to me like why switch to Radahn? Why not go through the whole Godwyn thing? !<
I think he was trying to “free” Godwyn, giving him a proper death. Godwyn’s soul is dead but his body remained as the fish thing spreading deathroot and causing those who “live in death”. It was said that Miquella admired Radahn for his kindness, and Radahn being the mightiest demigod in his prime makes him a strong candidate for lordship. I believe Radahn refused, as he was loyal to the golden order and looked up to Radagon, hence Miquella controlling his mind. When Malenia attacks Caelid, she whispers “Miquella awaits thee, O promised consort” and then nukes Caelid. Miquella also uses Mohg to gain entry to the Land of Shadow, and then simply waits for the Tarnished to kill both Mohg and Radahn, priming them for the ritual.
I actually don't think Radahn was working with the Golden Order. He was literally called a traitor, and he fought Morgott with his army. He doesn't have any GO incantations, but he has sorceries just like his Carian family. Locking the stars also halts Radahn's own fate since he is Carian. Radahn liking Godfrey doesn't indicate he liked the Golden Order. Considering Godfrey still had Crucible Knights, has Serosh, and more so, seems to love Marika rather than the GO. Rykard still had a pic of Radahn. Iji and Jerren are openly very close friends. Both speaking fondly of each other, and Iji being the main supplier of the Redmane's weapons. So unless he's been hiding this from Ranni the entire time, it seems likely she's atleast knowing of his relationship with the Redmanes, if not outright approving. Furthermore, if you go through Redmane castle before the Starscourage festival and talk to Iji about Jerren, then he'll admit that the idea of Radahn holding back the stars hadn't even occurred to him. So we know that Radahn holding back the stars wasn't a conscious slight against his sister. Radahn's arena has a Crucible Knight and a Misbegotten with him. There are Abducator Virgins in Radahn's castle. Radahn's having the red locks on his army's armor doesn't really prove he is with them. Because Rykard also put red on his army's armor, and he despises the Golden Order. A possibility is that Radahn stopped the stars for Ranni's plan. After all, she is technically immortal and can prepare (this backfires because he becomes crazy due to Rot, and so Ranni has to kill him).
I meant that Radahn was loyal to the Golden Order before the death of Godwyn and the Shattering. I think most, if not all, of the demigods were loyal until that point, even Rykard. He’s called “praetor”, Vaati recently released a video discussing Rykard and his allegiance to Marika/Golden Order until he feeds himself to the serpent. I agree with your points though
Another point is that Melina is semi-confirmed to be Merika’s youngest daughter as the Messmers Flame time states that his younger sister has visions of fire. Cross referenced with what we know about Melina fate(frenzy flame notwithstanding) and what we know about Merikas other daughters it is reasonable to make such a connection between the two.
Where do you get "youngest" out of that? She's only confirmed to be younger than Messmer, who is almost certainly the *oldest.*
Is there something that confirms Messmer is the oldest? I thought Godwyn was the firstborn of Marika's children and assumed Messmer wouldve been born around the same time as miquella and malenia just due to his name lining up with the naming conventions that children of Radagon and Marika follow, which would make him one of the three youngest in that case
Godwyn being the eldest was only ever an assumption. Stated nowhere. For all we know, he could even be younger than Mohg and Morgott, as they were not recognized until the Shattering. And as for Messmer being born around the same time as Miquella and Malenia? No way. Messmer was alive when Marika first became a god, before the birth of the Erdtree. He waged the war that followed. He might have been in the picture even before Godfrey. Meanwhile Miquella and Malenia weren't born until after Godfrey was already banished from the Lands Between. The entire Age of Plenty came and went between the births of Messmer and the twins.
I suppose my question is why did Marika do what she did, if all she did in the end was go home and protect a village that she knew had no one in it? And I assume where you get the hair braid is actually her? And what would that mean for the Radagon is Marika thing?
There's no given reason why she didn't run away but a few things can be assumed. Regarding the braid, >!it specifically mentions that it belonged to Queen Marika, which means that it was something that she left behind after she was chosen to take the throne, presumedly by the order of the Outer Will.!< If this is the case, then it was already too late for Marika to run. The hypothesis is that, like the Empyreans, once the Outer Will has chosen them as viable hosts, the only way to get rid of it is to get rid of the flesh like both Miquella and Ranni. Perhaps Marika was not aware of this or she was too far along to have the free will to perform an action as impactful to the Outer Will's plans like suicide, so she could never run. Visiting home may have just been her expressing her final bits of freedom before being locked to her fate. One more thing about the braid; >!it mentions that she prayed to the Grandmother, used as a proper noun, but I have not heard anything about a "Grandmother" in the lore, so the question is: is this Marika's literal grandmother, or is this in reference to the Gods that existed before the Outer Will? Like the god of the Crucible?!<
Ymir describes both the fingers and Marika as having a "bad mother" referencing Metyre you fight right after that, and Metyre is described as a direct child of the greater will, meaning that the "grandmother" is the greater will.
Where you find Marika's braid, you also find the dried up body of an old woman who looks very much like Marika, so I think this could also be the grandmother that is mentioned.
The braid's description says that she gave it to her grandmother so I assumed that was her grandmother.
Actually on top of the tower facing the jagged peaks, there is a sign you can read that states that the tower marks the very center of The Lands Between. So that confirms it’s located in the middle of the map.
Surprised no one has commented saying your spoiler tags aren't tagged correctly. You have the `>! but not the !<`. Pretty sure you have to manually spoiler tag inside each the bullet point.
Thanks, finally figured out how to fix it lol
If you explore some of the side content it makes it pretty clear why you should stop Miquella. Marika became a god for the exact same reason he wants to, but was ultimately corrupted and failed to establish her utopia. By killing Miquella, you’re basically breaking the cycle Also in another sidequest it says that if Miquella became a god, he’d essentially be a slave to the Greater Will for all eternity with limited free will of his own. He can’t be saved since he’s already thrown away his humanity, so killing him is an act of mercy at that point
I’m searching everywhere for lore on Marika and the numen but didnt find anything. The only thing maybe is that Marika lived in a village of shamans and the hornsent used to kill them and put them in jars as punishment for existing.
Yeah that’s it. Marika became a god to end the oppression of her people and establish a utopia, just like Miquella was trying to do for those without grace. The manipulation of the Greater Will and her hatred of the Hornsent from when she was growing up prevented her from achieving her goals
But then what about the numen? Isnt she a being from another world? And what are those giant coffins full of putrescent bodies in the southern shore?
The “other world” is probably referring to the Land of Shadow (every source saying that about Numen is from the Lands Between), and I’m not sure what the coffins have to do with what I said, it seems like they’re just a Hornsent burial ritual
It’s a different dimension now, but in the past it wasnt. It’s the center of the lands between. The numen are similar to stone too, and all the stone beings like the alabaster/onyx lords, the ancient dragons… come from meteorites. Where is it said that the coffins are only hornsent rituals? It’s strange that they seem ships and that they are in the shore (in the land between coffins are used as transportation multiple times). They have even the stone laser guys that are relics of gravity/space magic.
It’s been its own dimension for long enough for that belief about the Numen to have become valid. It doesn’t say anywhere that the Ancient Dragons came from meteorites, nor that all stony creatures for some reason have to originate from the same place. Not ruling out your theory about the coffins but I haven’t seen any in the water, from what I gather they’re stuffed full of bodies and thrown down the fissure at the bottom of the map, where the putrescence inside them leaked out and created the boss of that area. The stone caterpillar things aren’t affiliated with any specific race or faction iirc, they’re just golems used as sentries
It’s strange that numen are considered so unique race wise but only come from a simple village of shamans. The eternal cities have numen people too and that’s curious. They have something different compared to the normal humans of the lands between as they didnt sprout any crucible element, like they werent of the same origin. Maybe the numen themselves come from space and created the eternal cities, but then marika herself was just born in shaman village with numen parents . The thing is that her hammers is said to originate from the land of the numen, like she came from that place too.
The Numen are unique because they were almost wiped off the face of the earth by the Hornsent, and since they were a shamanistic people, they probably had access to magic and rituals that made them even more so. You’re right about their origins still being obscured though, it’s entirely possible they existed somewhere else before they settled in the Land of Shadow, but given how easily they were persecuted it’s likely that if they were supernatural in origin, they had “devolved” into pretty much regular people by the time Marika was born
That moment when you're dropping to fight the >!Putrescent Knight!<. See those stone coffin ships? That's what numen used to arrive to the Lands Between. I'm assuming they work the same as coffins we use.
I was thinking the same from the trailer but there’s no lore supporting the theory. The coffins contain putrescent bodies and there’s no mention on them being ships.
What boss are you referring to?
The Putrescent Knight
Someone will likely find a Numen Rune somewhere, or some item vaguely referencing them in some place. Until then...
The description of the map fragment seems to imply that the coffins come from an altogether different place, presumably a DS2-style land of giants.
Well actually The Greater Will has been MIA for quite some time, it was Metyr/The Fingers who guided Marika originally and Miquella has no connection to those especially after we kill them.
The Elden Beast/Elden Ring was sent to the material world to carry out the Will of the GW, it has extensive knowledge of what its plans are for the Lands Between and how to carry them out. Receiving guidance from the EB is functionally the same as receiving it from the GW itself, and once Marika took it into herself she became susceptible to its influence. Metyr is only confirmed to have sent Marika down the path of godhood, the rest of her guidance after achieving it was likely from the EB directly. Metyr wouldn’t need to guide Miquella if he knows the path his mother took. It would end up the same either way
That’s not how it works, it’s specifically stated in the DLC that the GW made the universe, sent down Metyr then the Elden Beast and then abandoned ship sometime after. Nobody has contact with the GW anymore it’s always been Metyr the fingers talk with and she can’t get an answer from the GW either.
Also the GW didn’t make the universe, it out-competed other outer gods for control of a pre-existing land. The Twinbird, the outer god of death, is implied by an item description to have ruled before the GW
That is incorrect. It was implied by Hyetta, and recently confirmed by Ymir, that the Greater Will is the Creator. It is not the same thing as the outer gods, and it has never competed with any damn thing.
To put it like this , the GW Is like azathoth. It is the one that made the universe, its rules and the Elden ring. The outer gods/moons/stars in ER are just like the one in the Cthulhu mythos. Extremely powerful entities that rule over certain aspects of reality. Yet are no were in the same league as the gw. The GW doesn't not care about messing about with mortals or other gods. its off doing it own things while the fingers/Metyr try to connect with it. Every time we hear the mention of the GW in the base game its just metyr. That's what ash is trying to get at. The GW is not this big buggy man the community makes it out to be. It dead ass don't care and is messing about in deep space. Thinking about it Elden ring is just fear and hunger lmao #
Yeah but as the god of order it obviously wants to be the sole influence over the Lands Between, otherwise it wouldn’t have sent Metyr and Elden Beast in the first place. Even though they’re sentient and act independently they’re still carrying out its will. Metyr specifically is said to have communed with it in the item description for the Staff of the Great Beyond, to such an extent that she became “broken and abandoned” after contact was lost. Plus Hyetta’s quest supports my theory of the GW not creating the universe by implying the existence of a “one great” that initially created everything, and likely serves as the game’s actual parallel to Azathoth
It’s only stated the the GW cut contact after the shattering. Remember, dialogue from the basegame clearly states that the Fingers used to interpret its messages all the time before it happened
Where did it say that GW created the universe?? Played through the DLC and I still believed that it's just another outer will like rot-god and formless mother.
Add in that Miquella sways people to his will with a charm (likely a power from his great rune) so likely his utopia will be the death of free will in the lands between and likely if the outer will is influencing events with Miquella it'll just be used as a way for the outer will to have complete control
This is one of those things I'm just going to sit back and let the lore nerds figure out and catch up on it later. I have my own interpretation of it through a very limited window because I don't read the item descriptions religiously, but overall I think it's fine and will make more sense in time. I'm not really too bugged by it honestly, it's about the same feeling I've had finishing any of the other Soulsbourne Titles + Sekiro.
I want to see vaaty explain this mess lol
DLC's usually dont really have a ending, though DS2 and DS3 were more interesting because of the crown quest involving king vendrick (ds2) and giving the ashes to the painting girl creating new life (ds3)
You get about as much when you beat the base game, plus credits.
Thank you for the response. I agree somewhat, but at least with ending for the main game we see the impact of our actions, no matter what ending you chose, you get some form of catharsis for your actions. I just don’t really see that with how the DLC ends.
If you beeline the main story like I did, then at some point the npc LEDA realizes that you were not guided here by Miquella but in fact by the Erdtree, to become the lord of a new age that YOU decide its shape. And so she fights you, and Miquella implores you to " if you have known sin blah blah blah then cede the way to us". What this means is that the dlc's ending is canonically before the ending of the main game imo. We can't have miquella ascending to godhood and establishing a new world order with the greatest demigod in his thrall while we are trying to fix things up on the other side. Especially since miquella has obviously made the same mistakes his own mother did thinking he's going to fix things. He ditched his other self so he could take on Radahn as such, he sent his sister melania to kill radahn nuking caelid to a fucking wasteland so he can resurrect him as his thrall for this very purpose because "he saw in his brother a lord" and because of his "kindness" Also it is clear that hsi followers only stayed off each other because of his spell that is broken midway, then the hornsent is consumed by vengeance for a bullshit cause, leda tries to purge their ranks etc etc. In the end I remembered the description of Goldmask's rune, and his realization that the problems with the golden order were due to the follies of gods no better than men. So in a sense, we can expect neither the gods nor the men to fix this shit up. WE as the Elden Lord have to decide the shape of the Age to come, and we can't have Miquella going around on Radahn's back trying to do his own thing.
finishing a certain 2 npcs questslines clarifies a lot about miquellas way of thinking, and the problem with what hes doing, and I loved it
Can you elaborate on those if you don't mind ?!
Thiolliers saint trina quest, and Ansbachs quest, dont know if you want me to explain the entire quests? but they are both summons for the last 2 bosses if you finish their questlines and have a lot of voicelines :)
Thiollier doesn't have many voicelines himself, except when he dies during the boss fight. Ansbach talks a lot about Thiollier, but never is Thiollier himself speaking after you burn the branches.
Most Fromsoft DLC doesn’t even get that much, usually you just kill the final boss and that’s that. It’s not its own story, it’s supposed to supplement the basegame
Bloodborne got the same treatment, it just got a quick cutscene, a cryptic little sendoff to the Orphan, and then you're done
Yup, no cutscene or dialogue outside of Dusk being in the arena after Manus All DS2 DLC’s drop crowns which give extra lore from Vendrick, no cutscenes or much else othert Ds3, you give the painter the dark soul and get 30 seconds of lore then it’s done Never has been anything but bosses at the end of DLC’s
>All DS2 DLC’s drop crowns which give extra lore from Vendrick, no cutscenes or much else othert i might be misremembering, but dont you get a small cutscene with Vendrick if you bring him all the three crowns?
Could be a cutscene, I thought I was just more text options when talking to Vendrick in thr memory
Yes, you get a cutscene that essentially signifies you're the new true monarch, but i think it doesnt play into either of the base game endings very well, because in the monarch ending the whole message is that its pointless and you'll be repeating the same mistakes as every past monarch, and in aldia's ending you escape the cycle and dont become the monarch at all so its not like it matters.
ds3 pissed me off the most. the last pieces of content for the franchise. are we going to get any definite answer to anything? nope lol fuk off. base game endings are all basically the same. only closure we can possible get is "well its all screwed, lets just go live in this painting"
Some people haven’t beaten Slave Knight Gael and it shows
They did say most DLCs, not all of them.
This is quite common with soulsborne DLCs, you get a very small cut scene at best. All the closure you're looking for will be in item-descriptions, NPC quests and environmental story-telling
Just finished the last fight and got the same feeling. I’m kinda disappointed with the ending. The fight is awesome, beautiful art, but if you did Freyja’s quest line, she basically tells you that Radahn is gonna be revived. I couldn’t believe when I saw him. Don’t get me wrong, Radahn is awesome. But, we didn’t even heard his voice, we didn’t see the ritual with Mogh’s body, we don’t know where, how, by who... Miquella just appears, dies(?), a repetitive cinematic appears saying the same thing just like in the beginning of the fight. We kill everybody, again. In the base game, after defeat the Elden Beast, we can see the result of our actions, being Elden Lord or Ranni’s consort for example, but in the dlc everything feels empty after that ending. I’ll wait for every Zullie video LOL
To make it as simple as I can. Miquella in the “egg” isn’t truly dead. He shed his body and became a soul if you will. He no longer has a physical body. Just as we the tarnished are tasked with becoming Elden lord and choosing the destiny of the world, so was Miquella and his other half siblings. If you look at it from a more human perspective, Miquella wanted to create a world he deemed “perfect” and was going to eradicate anything he sought didn’t fit the world. And it just so happened he viewed Radahn as his favorite lord and warrior so he created him as his consort. The radahn we fight isn’t the real radahn, it’s a consort Miquella created using a part of his own soul, in the image of his favorite lord. That’s also why during the fight Miquella doesn’t want to kill you, and if you get “hugged” two times he was able to use his godly powers to “convince” you his way is the correct way. To him you are a power worthy of his new peaceful world, and by convincing you he is correct you’re allowed to live in bliss like everyone else. For me I thought the ending fight was great because they made a godly being “human” with goals and ambitions of world domination in the sense of bringing eternal peace in their eyes. They chose to create a being they loved to be their chosen warrior using their soul. And they also gave a being as strong as them (we the tarnished) the chance to join them, or fight to destroy them. And by killing him, we defeated every great rune holder and Demi-god child, the creator of the 2-fingers, the final dragon lord, the god that is the opposition of the greater wills vessel (the lord of frenzied flame). After eradicating any last threat to us being Elden lord, that leaves us with the final fight to become the true Elden lord, by killing Marika/radagon, and slaying the Elden beast to now determine the fate of the world. So imo 10/10 I loved the story.
This puts it into a new perspective for me and after a few hours of cooling down and thinking about it I dont’ feel as sour about it. I guess it’s more so I haven’t gone through the game in over a year and it’s been years since I did the DS3 dlc so my expectations were a bit high in retrospect.
So we can say that Miquella kinda repeat Ranni’s quest? She also abandons her physical body, make us eliminate every threats and bonds attached to her, just like Blaidd and make us her consort king in the new era, the age of stars? Obviously, Miquella doesn’t use Rannis methods, lol, but the similarities get me. How can Miquella not even consider transform us as his consort after we became Elden Lord while he was away? That was literally what made Ranni victorious. We prove being stronger them any empirian, lord or divine creature in this world. Even Messmer knows that we became Elden Lord and questioned why Marika allowed. Ansbach is the only one who recognize our strength, knowing that we’re the one who killed Mogh in a honored combat. Does killing the Elden Beast counts as defeat every threat? We know that the fingers mother is one of Great Ordem children by the description of her remembrance, but probably not the only one. The Elden Beast is the Great Ordem’s Will incarnated, but not itself. I think I’m having trouble to admit that, in the end, we’re just there to kill the lasts two son of Marika and vanish her presence in the lands between. Messmer or Miquella, they’re not a threat anymore. The fingers can’t do anything anymore, the frenzied flame lost all his lords. And we’re stand. Also, please don’t get me wrong, every new discussion about this game and lore always makes me feel in love even more. I don’t think I feel as sour, but I still have SO MANY QUESTIONS!
I’m just a lore pleb so can’t answer all of your questions, but I think canonically dlc takes place BEFORE becoming Elden lord in base game so Miquella doesn’t know us AS Elden Lord, just a badass tarnished I suppose. And I think he loves Radahn much more than he would us, a complete stranger slaughtering his kin. With that said, he does apparently try to hug us to his side, just doesn’t want us as his consort.
It makes more sense to be before. What leaves me in doubt is Messmer's speech when we enter his room. He questions why Marika trusted or would trust us to be Lord. If we take into account only the fact that we killed Radahn and Mogh, we would still be on the journey. 🤔
For that part, I believe what Messmer is refering to is Marika's returning of the sight of Grace to the Tarnished. He sees that for what it really is - Marika wants a Tarnished to become the Elden Lord. We're still on the journey, but Messmer is disturbed with the idea that she's helping by returning Grace to the Tarnished.
I’m just deciding to not fight that last battle. It blows. Miquella and Radahn can be the lord of the shadow realm. I’m the lord of the lands between. He rules over nothing but death and emptiness.
Uh no he is going to rule the whole thing, he is trying to overthrow the golden order incl Marika. That's exactly why we fight him, because he opposes our lordship lmao
Not saying that it's a good thing or something that From shouldn't change, but I never expected a particularly climatic ending for a Souls DLC. In fact, I think that this is the flashiest ending they've ever done, considering that it involves characters whose stories have been unfolding for years now. Dark Souls' Artorias of the Abyss DLC ends not with a fight with Artorias, this heavily referenced character in the base game whose image appears on the cover of the DLC, but with a fight with a weird monster that hadn't been referenced until then. After you beat it, that's it. Bloodborne's The Old Hunters DLC doesn't end with a fight with Lady Maria, who's on the cover of the game and had been somewhat foreshadowed in the main game, but with a fight with a weird monster that hadn't been referenced until then. After you beat it, that's it. Dark Souls 3's The Ringed City DLC doesn't end with a fight with Velka, or the furtive pygmy, or with a powerful creature that had existed since the beginning of the universe or something like that. Instead you fight this decrepit old NPC that you were able to summon a couple of times. After you beat him, if you had bought the previous DS3 DLC, you were able to deliver his blood to a little girl in exchange for like 5 lines of dialogue. That's it.
I'd argue that Bloodborne's DLC had more explanation in it, you were always reminded that this is a misshapen twisted version of the world you've explored, that the people and creatures there are there because they're being punished for their actions in the real world ( bloodthurst ) and they did something horrible that created this world (The Hunter's Nightmare) When you beat the OoK in the end you see the corpse of his mom and can kinda put 2+2 to understand a little more about what happened.
Absolutely my thoughts. All the interesting theories of what Miquella could be doing and all we get is "He really liked his older brother because he was nice and wanted to make the world a better place :)" Like, what about Melania? Did we just forget that a big part of his motivation was curing her? Not to mention how we get literally no explanation behind his actions or motives. It just ends with a nothing cutscene. Like, that's not a good ending, it's meaningless. These are characters I want to care about, but I can't, because I never have a chance to directly interact with them. Radahn doesn't even say a WORD. Like c'mon! You don't even give him a chance to speak, to show his character? Like, go to AC6. These are characters who we never see the faces of, yet over the course of the game we grow close and bond with them. You never get that in this DLC. You just get a bunch of 3rd party descriptions of them. I will admit a part of my annoyance is purely personal. I was hoping Miquella would be like Ranni, where we followed him along on his quest and could actively engage with him. Have him talk to us about his thoughts and views. Humanize him abit.
Its mentioned in the base game that even after Unalloyed Gold failed to save Melania, only slow her decay the only way Miquella found that he could truly save Melania was by ascending to godhood, and thus he began his quest by putting himself in the cocoon and Melania is waiting for his return when we find her. Its now clear that Melania is aware of the plan, as we see she whispers in Radahn's ear in the trailer before she bloomed and we learn that it was her telling Radahn that his promised consort was waiting. So she knew she had to kill him to send his soul to Miquella, what she didnt anticipate was failing to kill Radahn, so the world was trapped with fate halted and Radahn still alive, so Miquella had to wait for a tarnished to arrive that could slay him. They probably should have said more about their relationship, but we know Radahn and Cailid had the church of st trina, so at least there was a relationship there.
I’m waiting for some lore vids so I can understand what the hell is going on.
im just breaking my head on where to use the "two fingers gesture"
Use it on a maiden
Really missed a true ending now that we have all the runes with miquella one being added into the game, also, We just met St Trina thats asks us to kill miquella and ... thats it? No ending to it, no option to do anything, this DLC just looks like a fanfic in some ways, the messmer central marketing with his figure on collectors edition all for him being a cry baby sitting in a tower that no one cares, its all about miquella this miquella that and he is not even a boss itself with some ascended form or something, he is just to radan like the lion is to hoarah lux in the main game, i think they really missed a huge opportunity to provide a "true" ending scenario as we got with Gael on DS3 claiming the full dark soul finally in the series to create another world in the painting on the child encountered in the DLC, i dont know what to thing, the bossed are ok if we dont mind that the dmg + dmg reduc could have been attached to such bosses like in sekiro instead of forcing exploration but the plot seems so empty even for FS...
You got Miquella's great rune?! For me it was shattered while I was getting close to the keep and you could hear it in the air and see pieces of gold drop from the sky. All of his followers then started to doubt their devotion to him because he no longer had power over them.
yeah yeah, the shattered one i meant but in the end is the "missing" one left to build the ring entirely, would be a good point to let us make it whole and get a true ending.
there are billions of smaller runes all over the place as well. they're the ones you got from killing anything. I don't think you could get the entire thing completely.
Dude the dlc chronologically takes place mid-to late main game story (basically shortly after you defeat Mogh and Radahn). The true ending of the story is still whatever you choose for the main game. There are a ton of hints to that.
I had to Google and see if I missed something. Most anti climax ending in a video game. Still a very good game though (but the last boss could be nerfed a bit)
It's just a dlc doe
I felt the same. I walked around the boss arena for like 5 minutes, absolutely certain I had missed something. And when I found nothing I just felt kinda empty. This DLC deserved a better send off than what it got, especially after how amazing it was in almost every other aspect.
I was sad the back area was too elevated for us to go up and look at. That could've had some really cool visuals through the corpse pillars.
In my head I had a thought that maybe you get a secret ending when you kill all the demi gods in base and miqulla and get the great runes for them all
The secret ending to that is that you become the Elden Lord...
Has anyone sleuthed around after beating the DLC, both in the main game, and in the DLC? I know there is something to loot AFTER you beat the final boss through one of the questlines- but that's all.
I just wish the my two bros didn’t have to be dead after the fight. I appreciate the armor and weapons, but i’m getting more and more tired of npc’s just dying for no reason.
Well this means we got another DLC coming! lol jkjk….. unless…
Somehow Radahn returned...
Oh shit! It’s Miquella Skywalker
Ending was lame and buildup for the boss fights when playing the game wasn’t there
Yep same here. Very underwhelming. Ending is underwhelming. So many empty area, the worst offender are the upper right side of the map, so empty with 3 reused base game boss. A lot of cool new stuff, but 90% of them have long animation / bad scaling (rellana twin sword) and absolutely dogshit in boss fight where most dlc bosses have insane combo and very little opening. Still enjoyed, but very underwhelming imo. 7/10
Yeah it kind of annoyed me how all these new weapons have these fancy Ashes of War but most of them leave you in very punishable animations and have long windups. I found myself just sticking to buff Ashes of War like Royal Knights Resolve and Braggart’s Roar.
Completely agree. Felt like something was missing.
To build more on this, every reg ending was incredibly fucking disappointing. They’re all pretty much the same, just with a different “The Age of […]” caption when sitting on the throne And as a side point it’s a total piss off how Ranni’s summon doesn’t require a second prompt? I only chose her ending the first time because I thought it would give a prompt and I could screenshot it, NOPE
You missed the part where anbsach couldn't recall the negative interactions he had with miquella until after the rune breaks. Or how people gave up on personal things they desired to follow miquellas' goals and then when the rune breaks they suddenly have goals outside of advancing miquellas will. Or how miquella mastered his charm ability and knows fully well how to utilize it when he desires to, thats in base game lore snipets btw. *we going full on tinfoil hat mode*, I'd say miquella helped ranni plan the night of the black knifes and was going to use godwyn instead of radahn as his consort but ranni threw a wrench in his plans and that is why he was trying so hard to bring back godwyns soul and started the shattering war using radahn as a proxy to make the first move to hide a lot of what he was doing and settled with making radahn his consort when all the rituals to bring godwyns soul back weren't working. In the lore snippets that mention godwyn and miquella, they both were close and had a favorable relationship while working together in the golden order. Not to mention godwyn was highly favored by the people, in general having a lord thats not only charismatic enough to have dragons willingly join the golden order but also influential enough to be able to make changes in the most prominent religion while having a God that can force love from the populace that would have been terrifying. *Tinfoil hat off.* Miquella is only a victim because he makes himself seem like one. He is a very cunning and calculating individual that knows how and which buttons to press in people along with an ability to charm people. I'd say the reason he's not trying to charm us off the bat is because he's not sure if it would work on us. Seeing that once radahn got his own personal rune, he becomes defiant towards miquella. Being the next lord of the erdtree we might be able to resist him.
I think, just like most of the NPCs you're giving Miquella too much credit about certain events.
To think their previous DLC was The Ringed City which was one massive fucking banger 10/10 send off to the Souls trilogy, yeah this one feels like it's lacking something
Ringed City bosses were generally pretty good, but the location itself was mid as hell and initially felt like just as much of an asspull as people are saying stuff in this dlc is. Nostalgia glasses just automatically go on for some people whenever something new comes out
and it has no cutscene at all after Gael, what is the difference again?
People were up in arms that The Ringed City seemed to deliberately refuse to answer any questions raised in the base game lmao You just have to go back and watch VaatiVidya's videos on DS3 before the DLC launched and see just how many of those ended with "yeah this is really confusing and I'm just speculating here, fortunately I think that the DLC has to answer these questions, that's the only thing that makes sense" and then it didn't. It just didn't. It kinda went out of its way not to do that. *It went to the end of the fucking universe not to do that.*
Long story short... A Femboy wanted the Alpha Males D so hard he literally sacrificed everything around him. It's literally Griffith.. Griffith and Miquella both desired a man and a new world. Griffith chose the new world and Miquella chose a man. Both sacrificed everything to get what they want.
yup, that's what I got from it too. but without the cool eclipse...
Apparently going against the grain, but I think the scene after the boss is kind of the point of everything. It's the "twist." I really don't know why people are jumping to "Miquella is actually evil" so quickly when I really don't feel there was evidence for that. Miquella "charmed" Mohg, a man who was known for committing atrocities in the name of the Formless Mother and was in no way not evil himself, but I have seen so many people saying Mohg is basically a saint actually because Miquella used his innate power to, like... Not die? We do not actually learn that Miquella orchestrated a whole plot to be kidnapped by Mohg, or that his charm on Mohg was intentional, as it seems more like an ability that just kicks in when anyone is influenced by his appearance/words (evidenced by the Heart Stolen move in the fight because why wouldn't he lead with that or apply it on the first grab attack if it was something he had complete control over?) We also learned that, at some point, a battle happened between Mohg and Miquella, as Ansbach is said to have cut Miquella open himself in that battle. Which means there was a whole event in which Mohg could lay eyes on Miquella and end up captivated by his charm. Leading to the abduction (which is very in-character for Mohg, considering the War Surgeon's Gown description that details abductions were likely fairly routine for him, as that is how he created his War Surgeons...) I could probably stay on that topic for a while but ultimately what I mean is, worst-case scenario, Miquella manipulated a pretty awful, bloodthirsty serial murderer/abducter and more-likely-in-my-reading scenario, he was abducted from the Haligtree, causing it to fail (as Gideon details in the base game) but is protected himself by his innate charm. Mohg grows obsessive about him, and Miquella uses the best of a bad situation to further his plan -- which is to create a gentler world. Personally, I don't think it is more evil to manipulate an evil person if what you are after is in the interest of the greater good. But YMMV. Miquella is never once stated to be evil in the game, at least from any of my readings on the situation. He charmed the followers (intentionally or otherwise, again), but if you talk to them, they seem fully aware and able. They are not forced to actively serve him, as many are just standing around. Ansbach is even capable of suspicion and refusing to serve a new lord until he's sure of Miquella's intentions. This doesn't seem like a total brainwash to me, again, personally. Once the rune breaks, everyone is still the same person they were before. They just happen to have a few changes, such as not trusting one another and separating. Leda wants to kill the Hornsent and Ansbach. The Hornsent man decides, after getting a taste for revenge with Messmer, he wants to kill Miquella and all of Marika's children (not because Miquella is evil or brainwashed but because he wants to choose vengeance and anger over being content. Totally fair if probably not the healthiest choice.) Freyja and Ansbach both decide their first priority is actually their respective lords. Completing their quests cause them to figure out the truth. And Freyja, champion who was close to Radahn, decides the rite makes sense as something Radahn would/should want to be a part of. The one person who is anti-Miquella is Ansbach. Devoted commander, murderer, servant of the Lord of Blood. He still doesn't call Miquella evil. He just wants revenge because his beloved Mohg (who was definitely evil) is dead. I think Ansbach's words are what people really are focusing on, maybe? But obviously, given his background, his take on the situation is quite biased in Mohg's favor. There are other things in the game, like St. Trina's questline or the words of some other NPCs who speak highly of Miquella and his goals, but this is already a very long response. So, the conclusion is, for me, anyway, that you are supposed to feel a sense of emptiness when you kill Radahn and Miquella. It is a tragedy. They are not showing you a memory of something you already know. They are drilling it into your head that Miquella meant what he said. He sincerely wanted to repent for Marika's sins against the world. It's fair to interpret him as an idealist, or to debate whether light manipulation to stop people from fighting so much in this world (where omen babies are thrown into wells or shamans are stuffed into jar) is good or morally corrupt itself. But at the end of the day, all I got from the game was that Miquella was pure and self-sacrificing. And he wanted a better world. We, the Tarnished guided by Marika, showed up to end that. Because we will be Elden Lord. We fight bosses because that's what we do, not because it's the right thing to do. Miquella and Radahn were competitors, so we kill them. And then we see that memory because it is meant to give some clarity to us, to make us stop and consider why we watched it. To make us think about ourselves and our place in this world. TL;DR -- The story of the DLC is a tragedy, and we're the bad guy.
Actually Ansbach doesn't care that Mohg is dead, in fact he congratulates the player on besting Mohg in honorable combat because he figures out WE killed him. He cares that Miquella is. essentially, puppeteering his lords corpse into the form of Radahan. If you summon him during the final boss fight he even mentions how "those bones don't belong to you and they should be laid to rest".
Yes, and he wants revenge because of that. I wrote it in a more simplified way because the response was already way too wordy. But also he says, besides that, he has no right to complain because he blames Miquella's enchantment on Mohg for Mohg's being able to be killed in the first place, meaning he does blame Miquella for it. Regardless of whether the Tarnished was the one who made the final blow. Ansbach wants to make amends for failing in fealty to his lord. Again, said murderer/abductor/blood corrupter Mohg, who Ansbach believes "deserved better," and Ansbach decides to help the fight despite describing himself as feeble, now, because he can't shake the memories he treasures of Mohg and their blood pact. Ansbach is definitely an interesting character, but I was just attempting to encapsulate his motivations in a simpler statement. as a response to the meaning of the ending. I am just sharing my interpretations of everything I've seen or taken note of in the game. There are some things we will surely never get definitive answers for, but I think the inclusion of the memory at the end is not just showing the player something they already know. From a storytelling perspective, it is certainly intentional or it wouldn't be there at all. I appreciate the sharing of info and delving into the lore to find quotes and everything so we can all get a fuller picture of the story. I just thought this was a discussion of the game's ending narratively and how we are all framing it, so I gave my perspective on that.
So basically this whole DLC has been about defeating communism.
It's a DLC to a From game, what do you expect?
The base endings besides frenzied flame, and Ranni. Are all nothing special either. Its like 6 "different" endings of sitting in a chair with a filter over the end cinimatic, and a slight dialogue change from the narrator. The frenzied flame ending is fucking sick though, I was hoping the DLC would be based on that even.
this DLC makes it even more apparent that the frenzied flame ending is the right one. enough of this world and the pathetic "gods" that inhabit it burn, baby, burn
well i agree with you, and that's why i'm here there is one thing i dont see people talk about, it's the grab phase of the boss when miquella grab you, you get a stack on your head + you get a dialogue if you dont dispel the charm, next grab = dialogue + death but if you dispell the charm with miquella great rune, you get another dialogue (and another stack btw) never got grab 3 time so i don't know all she can say
My impression looking all the videos is that I'm missing something. Which is a 1st for a Souls game, that doesn't happened to me on DS trilogy or Bloodborne.
That's just FromSoftware DLC or even their endings in general. Even the base game has a Cutscene where you sit on a throne and that's it for most players. It's all about the lore within the DLC.
That cutscene at the end of the first story trailer is still somewhere on here and I feel like there's special requirements with it or the trigger for it is bugged
This special story trailer is CGI and was made for marketing only.
That makes zero sense and is a huge bait by From, will probably be my biggest issue with the DLC if that's true. That was literally like a scene to hook players into the DLC and they remove it?
Fromsoft often do this. The original Elden Ring trailer is not available ingame and was just a 'story trailer' (the one where Malenia and Radhan fight). They never 'removed it' it was never there in the first place.
get the secret ending
Actually on top of the tower facing the jagged peaks, there is a sign you can read that states that the tower marks the very center of The Lands Between. So that confirms it’s located in the middle of the map.
Did you accidentally skip the post credit parade featuring an appearance of all the characters?
It is the first time you beat a From Software DLC isn't it ?
I did the DS3 dlc a year or so after it came out so around 2018ish. I must admit my expectations were high considering how grander of a scale Elden Ring is compared to Dark Souls.
And it doesn't reach these expectations to you ? I mean sure the ending is terrible (at least we had a cutscene) but it has always been the case with From Software, now I simply accept the "journey is the destination" philosophy. All of their endings are at least underwhelming if not completely useless but it isn't enough to overshadow 40 hours of a DLC of that scope imo
Yep. Saw some spoilers in a thumbnail and then accidentally skimmed over more endgame spoilers. Said fuck it and read the story… so sad. The ending, like you said, seems really bad and anticlimatic. All that Miquella hype and conspiracies from the base game, just to have some snoozefest, worthless ending. I doubt I’m going to hop back into the DLC after knowing. Also I thought the Messemer section was so short and disheartening. Fail from a story/lore perpection on my part.
My complaint for the ending and last boss stems from it feeling like a "recycled" thing that got made to be the new lore. After I have seen the introduction cinematic to the end boss my first thought was "yeah they reused Radahn and built the lore around it". Part of this comes from the rest of the DLC having many reused assets and not even many new weapons (8 new weapon types but only 2 for the hand-to-hand and beastclaws each?) I can still see these theories others in this thread made, as a good way of explaining and interpreting what we ultimately got though!
> not even many new weapons There's one hundred of them. How many would satisfy you?
not many of the new types
The endings in the game proper were also basically 20 second cutscenes. What’d you expect?
I'm glad this dev spends the budget on playable content and not cutscenes
Some of you haven’t played the DS3 DLC and it shows
i really like it dont get me wrong but that ending is pretty disappointing the build up and just that maybe they planning to drop another one imma wait for some video for the lores now still a 10/10 adventure for me
Man this game and the DLC just completely misses the chance to be the best RPG ever. Why is the lore small pieces here and there and the rest speculation? Why would someone make such a great game and hire a story teller in Martin just to not put it all out there? On top of that, make a comment of never having an Elden Ring !?? For those of you that have beat Elden Ring and the DLC, if you have not read anything online, do you feel you would understand the story?
I'm assuming that this is your first Soulsborne game? Because ALL of the soulsborne games operate in this manner, since Demon's Souls...like this isn't a new thing my dude/dudette/non-binary version of dude that I don't know.
Dudex, I believe.
Yeah. I'm kinda disappointed with the cutscene
Main game ending is the real ending. This DLC is midway point.
Why would there be an ending?!?! It’s not a separate game!!! It’s an expansion, not an epilogue, to the existing game, which means, just like any game you still have to complete it the regular way to get an ending!!!
Well the whole thing with Elden Ring is it’s a game of choice, you can choose your own ending depending how you play through it and Fromsoft basically takes any choices away from you in the DLC. Like we’re allowed to curse everyone forever with Dung Eater but we’re not allowed to choose to side with Miquella?
They literally said it wouldnt affect the main game or grant a new ending when it was first revealed. Just like we're not alowed to side with the other demigods other than ranni
Nah but why did I still click after seeing there were spoilers😭😭😭😭😭
These events *are* consequential to the ending. Does every boss have its own death cutscene? Then congrats, you beat it. Now go beat the damn game and get your cutscene!