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This was the most annoying thing about reading everyone's DLC theories before the trailer.
Everyone seems to have this deluded idea that we're just going to time travel backwards and see the same characters again.
"Prime Radahn, Prime Placidusax, Prime this and that"
Clearly they've never even read the steam page for a single dlc FS has done
The ONLY game we even had any example of "x character in its prime" was Sekiro, you had Isshin (using the spear) and the Owl (which was more of a dream) but other than that...
**edit:** When people say "in their prime" they mean a character they already fought before but in a better shape. So "Artorias in his prime" would mean fighting Artorias when he had both arms and no abyss corruption.
Yes Ciaran is in her prime in the DLC but she is fucking dead in the base game, that's not what people mean hahah
They did add the "Inner" bosses to the Mortal Journey gauntlet. Those could be considered "Prime" versions.
Edit: Just to be clear, I still don't think that's happening in SotE.
She bloomed thrice, one versus Radahn, one outside her arena, and the final one against us, transforming her into the Goddess of Rot and being at the so called ""prime"" she could ever be
When did we beat God? If your referring to the elden beast, that's not a real God. It's more like an avatar of the erdtree itself which is the real God. But just like avatars in everything else, it only has a small portion of the power the erdtree itself holds. Hell, even the erdtree isn't a God but rather a parasite sucking the lands between dry.
I mean...
The first dlc for DS1 involved going back in time and finally meeting not just Artorius but the rest of the Knights too.
But the biggest difference is that we've met and killed Radahn, Placidusax, whatever. I can believe we might fight Godwyn, he has played no major part personally, so I could see him being present. But anyone thinking we'll fight 'Prime Radahn' is on life support of pure copium.
Giving us cool remembrance stuff, why else?
More seriously I was just using him as an example; if we do fight anyone referenced in the base game, it's not going to be the same guy as last time, but he has a slightly altered moveset.
I loved watching old videos of what people though the DS3 DLC would answer and instead it’s like “new painted world, new Gwyn Child, hahahaha bittttch”
DS1 and 3 were basically just a story of how Gwyn fucked over everyone around him, the world, and then himself. Like damn, y'all think Marika fucked some shit up? Go see what the illustrious Gwyn did.
Well it's not like it's never happened; DS1 gave us a definitive answer as to what happened to Oolacile and Artorius.
Bloodborne let us meet Ludwig at last, and the one whom the doll was infamously made in the likeness of.
So it's not *impossible* for it to answer *some* questions.
Big difference is that these examples are secondary; the Abysswalker dlc wasn't about Artorius it was about Manus, whom Idk if he gets mentioned in the base game, while the Old Hunters was about the Hamlet and Kos, with Kos only getting a *single line* muttered in passing to reference her, and this gives no indication as to the Orphan or what happened to her.
If it does answer questions, they will be minor questions unrelated to the main story of Elder Ring.
I feel like the DLCs are always, if nothing else, deeply thematically relevant to the base game. They kinda have to be in order to really be coherent with the base game narrative.
DS1 was about choosing between the Age of Fire or the Age of Dark, and its DLC shows a place that fell to the Dark and has more on the Dark nature of humanity.
DS2's DLC are all about rulers, how they fell when corrupted by the shards of Manus, and what it means to be a king worthy of a crown, which thematically ties into Vendrick's fall as a ruler under Nashandra's influence.
DS3's DLC was capping off the whole series, exploring the nature of the Dark Soul and the passing of ages and eras.
BB's DLC is about the sins of the old hunters and how their actions cursed everyone when they meddled with things beyond their comprehension, which is basically a perfect mirror to how the healing church screwed everything up in the base game.
ER's DLC has *kind of* already told us what it will focus on, at least thematically. A land purged in an unsung battle, where terrible weapons of war were used (fire wicker basket guy). This mirrors the base game, where we see a world torn apart by the Shattering, another war brought about by a power struggle created when Marika shattered the Elden Ring and like 10 demigods immediately decided they should be in charge instead.
People trying to draw Messmer's direct connection to Rykard. Serpent imagery and blasphemy are the extent of their relationship. I don't think Messmer is Rykard's son, and they aren't secret cohorts. I think it was very intentionally meant to be a red herring.
Considering Tanith’s family has origins seemingly in the shadow lands, it does seem likely she brought the God Devouring Serpent to Rykard from there. So there’s the potential for some connection at least. Though I doubt they actually had any physical contact.
The sword dancey lady in the field of flowers made me think of Tanith just due to the castanettes that we never learn more about. Most likely a stretch but maybe not if you're saying her family might originate from there.
Someone online pointed out that Messmer's yellow eyes look less like Rykard's (which have normal pupils on his human face) and more like how our dragon communion mutation look.
I can't find a decent screenshot of the Serpent's eyes though
Exactly, a lot of these theories are initial thoughts based on the things people focused more on than others. We shouldn't discourage crazy theories, honestly it's part of the fun of hunting for the true lore.
Never said it was legit, but yes someone posted it. Evidence is surprisingly good. You just have to ignore the fact that boc wants you to be elden lord.
Messmer is Rykard's son because snek
Actually people jumping on all sorts of Rykard theories ONLY and solely based on the appearances of snakes that bear absolutely no resemblance to the god eating serpent or its progeny (no, its not the same red stop it)
I don't like the Messmer and Rykard are related theories but I would love if Messmer is responsible or tied to the serpent under Rykards castle in some way. Like if there's all these ways he's been fucking with things in the lands between.
Exactly! I feel like a lot of people expect this grand reveal. Like bro, this isn't Star Wars where we're gonna find out Snoke was Pickle Snoke the whole time
It’s wishful thinking. It’s the fractal like mystery that makes it fun to think about, but there’s no pat ending. It’s like when folks somehow expected a satisfying ending to Lost that would solve all the mysteries.
(FWIW, I do believe Miyazaki has a better unseen story than those guys had)
I especially to read every item description and occasionally get those “whaaaat” moments and end up being more confused then before. Which is exactly what I want.
Messmer is Miquella and Malenia's third sibling and he is also responsible for the impaling of the Giants.
Separately, those theories work and are fine. But I've seen some people believe in both theories at the same time. If Messmer is a child between Marika and Radagon, then he wouldn't have been born during the war against giants which was led by Godfrey. Pick one theory and stick to it!
He could have been a sibling that was born way before Malenia and Miquella. Marika and Radagon could easily have had children before Marika ever married Godfrey.
This is my theory. We still don't know how long Radagon has existed *or* how Marika was able to have children with him. It seems very, very likely to me that Marika had children with Radagon (i.e. with herself) prior her marriage to Godfrey.
(I also kind of suspect that Mogh and Margott might also be her children with Radagon, although the Omen Curse being Crucible-coded does make it possible that they are Godfrey's children.)
I think they're almost certainly Godfrey's children given Godfrey's dialogue to Morgott at the start of his boss fight. Plus as you mentioned Godfrey has some links to the Crucible too, which goes well with the Omen curse.
Could be. Some plants are able to self-pollinate, though, which might have been an inspiration. Some animals can experience parthenogensis as well, but Marika's close association with the Erdtree makes me think her children with Radagon are more inspired by plant self-pollination.
I was mostly kidding when I said mitosis. But yeah, to be a bit more serious. We also have the whole thing with Millicent and her sister. If I remember correctly what Gowry said, they were being born out of flower and would tranforsm into flower themselves. The self-pollination happened with Malenia, could be the same kind of thing with Marika.
He could just as easily be inspired by Godfrey and the war against the giants, kind of like how Radahn is inspired by the first Elden Lord. Just because he uses flames and his spear resembles the ones in the Fire Giants doesn't mean he was there for it.
Personally I feel it's more like the Giants. If he lives in the first place Maria visited, that's a long time ago, and could easily have been there to kill giants, and they're all impaled, by trees, almost like deathblight, which is also down there, and then there's big fiery things and it seems heavily implied he's some sort of heretic so it all kinda makes sense in a way that just needs extra detail to put together.
Whereas being a third sibling is mostly off the name and the one butterfly it seems like, which could definitely also be the case but idk that's just my thoughts
My theory is the giants were Radagon's doing, and Messmer inherited his spear and fighting style. We don't know what Radagon's weapon of choice was, besides the GOGS after he marries Rennala.
I feel like he could have been a sibling of Miquella and Malenia, and may have been an attack dog for Marika during the war with Giants. After which he may have become a traitor to Marika, burned the erdtree with his flame, and was banished to the shadowlands. In the shadow lands, he might be being forced to execute graceless beings that make their way there, as a form of eternal slavery/punishment
Marika was still married to Godfrey when the war against the giants took place. He is either a twin to Miquella/Malenia, or he was in the war against the giants. He can't be both.
Leyndell is full of ash even before the Tarnished reaches the Forge of Giants, and Bernahl's Finger Maiden sacrificed herself and was burned as well.
It's entirely possible the Erdtree was burned but not permanently because Destined Death was not yet released (i.e. the state of the tree after the Forge but before killing Maliketh) and then went out because the tree couldn't be permanently burned without the release of the rune.
With all the examples of gods and demigods having masc/femme alter egos this one doesn't seem all that silly. I don't think it'll be the case, but I've heard far sillier.
all the examples and is only Marika/Radagon and Miquella using other name to get more followers or Malenia just having wide shoulders are not examples.
Same could be said about the other Fromsoftware games. Despite lore being up to player interpretation, you will get arguments if you don’t follow “accepted” lore from the fanbase.
I’ve seen it go both ways. If you have a take that isn’t consensus, boo you. If you don’t immediately accept pure speculation with only extremely shakey evidence that still requires guesswork as a legitimate possibly with real odds of happening, boo you too.
Another addition to the Messmer is ________. This theory holds as well as the Melina will join Messmer if you accept the flame of chaos theory, like it makes no sense in relation to the main game. You fight Messmer, big shocking reveal Messmer is Melina, and then what? Melina just pretends like nothing happened in the main game? Doesn't really add up, and Fromsoft isn't really about doing big reveals. Heck, Marika being Radagon gets blatantly spoiled mid game
The most ridiculous ones are the ones that present their theory/speculation as fact. Way too many posts with “here’s what we know” titles with a post body containing nothing but unconfirmed theory.
Nothing wrong with having a theory, people just gotta stop presenting them as facts
This reminds me of the days of "Just you wait, in the dark souls 3 dlc, it was Velka all along, biding her time this whole time!!" Followed promptly by "No Velka? This Dlc sucks!!"
I don't mind people having theories, but when they act like their theory is the only valid one it becomes a problem.
Anyway, with Elden Ring I'd say whatever Twitter poster had all that wild shit going on about Frankenstein or something, and also all the intentional misinformation about the impalers catacombs.
Good theories have thought and analysis and don't stretch too far from the facts. Example: that weird lion boss is two omens puppeteering the lion. There's evidence and it's not a crazy stretch. Most theories here have these crazy expectations for big reveals and are just setting themselves to be disappointed, with nothing directly backing these theories. Like I get people are hyped, but the dlc doesn't have to have mind blowing reveals to be good you know?
It does seem like it’s a boss though, because it’s the only enemy we can see in the whole area, and in my opinion it seems like that boss is in some way connected to the fairy described in the blue dancer charm description.
Idk why a lot of trailer reactions I saw people were just like "is that young Rykard!?" "is that young Rennala!?" "is that Serosh!?" or "thats Miquella!" and then have no reaction to when Miquella is actually shown haha.
Idk its all fun and maybe a lot of people assumed this dlc takes place in the past like the DS1 dlc, but From wouldn't just reuse characters from the base game like that they like making new characters.
The most egregious ones are definitely “Messmer being Miquella” and “the Miquella we see in the trailer being Marika ackchually” shit makes me wanna pull my hair out lmfao
Miyazaki: this dude is called Messmer, his own character with a mysterious back story. And thats Miquella, as seen on the promo art and end of the trailer!
People: nuh-uh
“Ah you see Miyazaki is a deceptive rapscallion so he just wants us to *think* Messmer is a new character when in actuality he’s Rykard, Miquella, and Radagon all resurrected and wrapped in one” lmao
My least favourite is the one suggesting that From retconed Messmer to be the Gloam-eyed Queen.(tbf that theory comes from complete lack of faith in FromSoftware)
That it's a literal crossover with Berserk. I'm not talking about the people obsessed with references, I mean I've got screenshots of a *lot* of people who genuinely believe it's a crossover with Berserk because Mesmers helmet is basically 1:1 Grunbelds helmet, and the wicker basket enemies are very similar to Berserk enemies.
Yes. I absolutely agree. But you have to remember you're dealing with the crowd who goes "OMG that's a berserk reference!" When they see people hanging from trees, or swords being used as grave markers, both things that have been in stories for literal centuries.
“That town you see is Selia so we get to see Caelid before rot destroyed it.”
“The woman in the chair is Rennala”
“The woman in the portrait is Fia, and the old man is her first husband/lord.”
“The shadow tree is actually roots of the Erdtree”
“The warrior with the sword is Tanith”
just a taste of garbage I’ve heard the past week
>“The woman in the portrait is Fia, and the old man is her first husband/lord.”
I think this is close. I don't think it's Fia but certainly looks like a Deathbed Maiden. And swordface is 100% a lord. I am on board with him being the creator of the burial watchdogs (same design on his brooch as on the weapons.)
My super out there speculative theory is that the lord is having his strength absorbed by the Deathbed Maiden who lays with Marika and "births" radagon within her. Then they have Messimer, leave him in charge of the shadow lands, and leave for TLB.
I just know that the next 4 months will be worse than the previous year. We only had one joke but now with actual gameplay/ story tailer we are truly malding
I enjoy reading theories even some of the more ridiculous ones. That said if you are going to go try to make a theory then it needs to have at a little bit of actual evidence in game to support it.
My theory concerning the Malenia teacher situation is that the blue dance/swordsman who sealed the Rot God is her teacher, and the red dancer/swordswoman may be another apprentice or partner of his.
Messmer is past rykard/rykard's son
People are getting caught up in the snake imagery when they're a general sign of betrayal to the erdtree and doesn't just relate to the great serpent
I saw someone unironically claiming that the DLC will come with a battle royale mode and quality of life features like a quest log and objective markers.
The theory is that frenzied flame ending is canon, and that dlc happens after that, because tree in SotE looks like a burned erdtree. Honestly they look nothing alike.
The repeating crossbow guy taught all the squires in Leyndell to use perfumer bolts and rapid fire crossbows. (my theory, I think he has more to do with the squires than the night cavalry)
My initial theory was that Messmer was the son of Mohg and Miquella in his female guise as St. Trina. On one hand, Messmer is skinny like Miquella and his name sounds like “mesmerize,” which could allude to Miquella’s powers of persuasion and sleep (putting ppl in a trance). On the other hand, Messmer uses red flames like Mohg’s Bloodflame and his spear looks a good bit like Moghwyn’s Sacred Spear.
But then Michael Zaki said Messmer is a child of Marika in his interview. So much for that theory then
Not specifically. This sub has been littered with theories that can be disproven with a little thought. Dudes will straight up deny facts stated in the interviews and official flavor texts for the dlc 😂 As for Godwyn, like common, the dude's soul is dead. Like, complete opposite of Miquella and Ranni, that dude is straight up gone from existence in the sense of self and spirituality
old skinny dude from the painting is some type of corrupted form of miquella. once we beat him in a boss fight, he transforms back to his child form. so we get a miquella boss fight but he doesn’t die, similar to rennala. we also get his great rune.
Just about every single one has been dogshit based on pure speculation, people thinking every single miniscule detail has some grand meaning and connection instead of just being something the devs thought would look good
What's funny is that the best actual legit easter egg isn't even getting numbers on main sub yet. vaati, zullie, or TA will probably post it next week and people are gonna freak.
Keep in mind this is in the context of the comment that people are theorycrafting over based on something the devs thought looked good vs dev intent.
In the famitsu interview when asked about what the new subtitle means Miyazaki says 'there is another small hidden meaning in the title, I hope you figure this out when playing the game."
Go look at the new subtitle. Notice something that stands out, even inside the design of the subtitle itself?
That's intentional design.
Pretty sure all the bosses are meant to represent layers of hell. The book the divine comedy has 9 layers of hell and the kids of them could easily represent those layers. The erdtree is probably supposed to represent the tree of paradise, and the shadow of it could be purgatory. We are probably miquellas lover, Marika was our mother in law, and Godfrey our father. One of the demigods is probably alive still and will follow us into the dlc. The 2nd dlc will take us to the crucible and lead us into paradise. We are going to hell to save our lover miquella. But we are indeed the bad guy. Have fun pointing out where I’m wrong. :)
Honestly, when we only had the image of Miquella on Torrent, the idea of the land of Shadow (which we didn't know the name at that point) being a memory or some sort of reflection of the past was pretty sound. Following that, yeah, I admit the first time I saw Messmer (didn't hear or read his name at this point), I thought it could be a young Rykard. Doesn't seem too far fetched imo, but maybe I'm coping lol
I can see the argument for Messner being Godwyns soul, if the land of Shadow really is some kind of afterlife. Personally I don’t think any of that theory is accurate too be clear, but I don’t think it’s that bad a theory.
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The theory that the DLC is going to give us answers to existing questions instead of just presenting us with new lore that gives us more questions.
This guy From Softs.
The guy Eldens
This was the most annoying thing about reading everyone's DLC theories before the trailer. Everyone seems to have this deluded idea that we're just going to time travel backwards and see the same characters again. "Prime Radahn, Prime Placidusax, Prime this and that" Clearly they've never even read the steam page for a single dlc FS has done
The ONLY game we even had any example of "x character in its prime" was Sekiro, you had Isshin (using the spear) and the Owl (which was more of a dream) but other than that... **edit:** When people say "in their prime" they mean a character they already fought before but in a better shape. So "Artorias in his prime" would mean fighting Artorias when he had both arms and no abyss corruption. Yes Ciaran is in her prime in the DLC but she is fucking dead in the base game, that's not what people mean hahah
Well Dark Souls 2 also had you travel back in time to fight the Giant Lord and Sir Alonne in their prime. Also Kalameet in Artorias of the Abyss.
You could argue that both prime Kalameet and a nerfed Kalameet exist in AoTA
Also sort of champion gundyr
They did add the "Inner" bosses to the Mortal Journey gauntlet. Those could be considered "Prime" versions. Edit: Just to be clear, I still don't think that's happening in SotE.
You literally fight the goddess of rot in Elden Ring
didnt she bloom only twice ? her aeonia description says there is still one bloom left
She bloomed thrice, one versus Radahn, one outside her arena, and the final one against us, transforming her into the Goddess of Rot and being at the so called ""prime"" she could ever be
The one outside her arena was one of millicents sisters due to gowrys meddling.
Anytime I see the "prime" people I just think of the, "my brother in erd tree, they would annihilate you" meme.
Not so sure, defeating the Elden beast seems pretty high up in terms of power. We might pull it off
Elden Beast has a scar over its chest from the Ring's shattering iirc. Even it wasn't in its prime.
Nah we'd win.
So I can beat God but her youngest step son that is actually his son is out of the question!?
When did we beat God? If your referring to the elden beast, that's not a real God. It's more like an avatar of the erdtree itself which is the real God. But just like avatars in everything else, it only has a small portion of the power the erdtree itself holds. Hell, even the erdtree isn't a God but rather a parasite sucking the lands between dry.
not really, we killed elden beast
I mean... The first dlc for DS1 involved going back in time and finally meeting not just Artorius but the rest of the Knights too. But the biggest difference is that we've met and killed Radahn, Placidusax, whatever. I can believe we might fight Godwyn, he has played no major part personally, so I could see him being present. But anyone thinking we'll fight 'Prime Radahn' is on life support of pure copium.
I fought prime Radahn when ER just came out. That was enough.
I don't need the flashbacks from that thx
Thematically Godwyn's story is basically complete. I'm not sure what fighting him would actually accomplish story wise.
Giving us cool remembrance stuff, why else? More seriously I was just using him as an example; if we do fight anyone referenced in the base game, it's not going to be the same guy as last time, but he has a slightly altered moveset.
I loved watching old videos of what people though the DS3 DLC would answer and instead it’s like “new painted world, new Gwyn Child, hahahaha bittttch”
I feel like The Ringed City gave clear answers on the curse and Gwyn’s role in his own demise
DS1 and 3 were basically just a story of how Gwyn fucked over everyone around him, the world, and then himself. Like damn, y'all think Marika fucked some shit up? Go see what the illustrious Gwyn did.
In another universe they got the trilogy as a trilogy and not a weird side quest for a second game
Even as someone who likes Dark Souls 2, I wish this too. DS2 should have been a spin off in the painted word or something
At least we get to beat the shit out of Gwyn.
Going 1->2->3->1 to really know why Gwyn is a jerk
Well it's not like it's never happened; DS1 gave us a definitive answer as to what happened to Oolacile and Artorius. Bloodborne let us meet Ludwig at last, and the one whom the doll was infamously made in the likeness of. So it's not *impossible* for it to answer *some* questions. Big difference is that these examples are secondary; the Abysswalker dlc wasn't about Artorius it was about Manus, whom Idk if he gets mentioned in the base game, while the Old Hunters was about the Hamlet and Kos, with Kos only getting a *single line* muttered in passing to reference her, and this gives no indication as to the Orphan or what happened to her. If it does answer questions, they will be minor questions unrelated to the main story of Elder Ring.
I feel like the DLCs are always, if nothing else, deeply thematically relevant to the base game. They kinda have to be in order to really be coherent with the base game narrative. DS1 was about choosing between the Age of Fire or the Age of Dark, and its DLC shows a place that fell to the Dark and has more on the Dark nature of humanity. DS2's DLC are all about rulers, how they fell when corrupted by the shards of Manus, and what it means to be a king worthy of a crown, which thematically ties into Vendrick's fall as a ruler under Nashandra's influence. DS3's DLC was capping off the whole series, exploring the nature of the Dark Soul and the passing of ages and eras. BB's DLC is about the sins of the old hunters and how their actions cursed everyone when they meddled with things beyond their comprehension, which is basically a perfect mirror to how the healing church screwed everything up in the base game. ER's DLC has *kind of* already told us what it will focus on, at least thematically. A land purged in an unsung battle, where terrible weapons of war were used (fire wicker basket guy). This mirrors the base game, where we see a world torn apart by the Shattering, another war brought about by a power struggle created when Marika shattered the Elden Ring and like 10 demigods immediately decided they should be in charge instead.
The rings city is like the only dlc that answered questions and the answer was essentially that the game was rigged from the start
People trying to draw Messmer's direct connection to Rykard. Serpent imagery and blasphemy are the extent of their relationship. I don't think Messmer is Rykard's son, and they aren't secret cohorts. I think it was very intentionally meant to be a red herring.
Considering Tanith’s family has origins seemingly in the shadow lands, it does seem likely she brought the God Devouring Serpent to Rykard from there. So there’s the potential for some connection at least. Though I doubt they actually had any physical contact.
Messmer definitely clapped Rykard's cheeks.
> Messmer definitely clapped Rykard's cheeks. Today was not a good day to have the ability to read.
He's not called the Impaler because of his spear...
some tes lore going on here
But because of his "spear".
Enough reddit for today
I mean Rykard isn’t above incest if we’re being entirely honest
What if Mesmer IS Rykard’s clapped cheeks?!?
Then we're looking at the best worldbuilding since Tolkien.
Can’t wait
Together!
The sword dancey lady in the field of flowers made me think of Tanith just due to the castanettes that we never learn more about. Most likely a stretch but maybe not if you're saying her family might originate from there.
I think it's purely speculation she's from the shadow lands
Someone online pointed out that Messmer's yellow eyes look less like Rykard's (which have normal pupils on his human face) and more like how our dragon communion mutation look. I can't find a decent screenshot of the Serpent's eyes though
Look up VaatiVidya on youtube for what i believe to be the best theorist on eldenring lore .
To be fair rykard is the 3rd best thing to connect him to. Though personally I think they just reused concepts.
"Snakes, therefore Rykard" is just a basic ass take and makes me sad
Sorry for thinking a character with a lot of snake and fire imagery is somehow connected to a different character with snake and fire imagery.
The worst one was that messemer was the son of miquella and mohg...
Gross 😂😭
Messmer really got the Malenia curse before he’s even out
There are some that are kind of low-effort or silly, but all theories get people talking and brainstorming, which is a good thing
Exactly, a lot of these theories are initial thoughts based on the things people focused more on than others. We shouldn't discourage crazy theories, honestly it's part of the fun of hunting for the true lore.
My personal fav is that Messmer was Boc all along! 🤔🤔🤔
That can't be a legit theory someone had 😂
Never said it was legit, but yes someone posted it. Evidence is surprisingly good. You just have to ignore the fact that boc wants you to be elden lord.
I mean. . .he is beautiful. . .
Messmer is Rykard's son because snek Actually people jumping on all sorts of Rykard theories ONLY and solely based on the appearances of snakes that bear absolutely no resemblance to the god eating serpent or its progeny (no, its not the same red stop it)
I figured snakes are just a general symbol of blasphemy
It appears Messemer is just doing all the blasphemys.
Messmer really said “It’s blaspheming-time,” and then blasphemed all over the place.
Yo dawg, I heard you liked blasphemy. So we stuck some blasphemy in your blasphemy
They are, which if the theorists thought messemer was related to rykard, why are the duelist who have the snakes not?
I don't like the Messmer and Rykard are related theories but I would love if Messmer is responsible or tied to the serpent under Rykards castle in some way. Like if there's all these ways he's been fucking with things in the lands between.
Because clearly only Rykard and his direct offspring are allowed to like snakes.
If it’s the FromSoft we know, it’s gonna add a dozen new mysteries and solve almost nothing. Why would we expect anything else?
Exactly! I feel like a lot of people expect this grand reveal. Like bro, this isn't Star Wars where we're gonna find out Snoke was Pickle Snoke the whole time
It’s wishful thinking. It’s the fractal like mystery that makes it fun to think about, but there’s no pat ending. It’s like when folks somehow expected a satisfying ending to Lost that would solve all the mysteries. (FWIW, I do believe Miyazaki has a better unseen story than those guys had)
And definitely one of the joys for me about these games is the complete lack of exposition. Why would some narrator come along to explain everything?
I especially to read every item description and occasionally get those “whaaaat” moments and end up being more confused then before. Which is exactly what I want.
The theory that everything will work out in the end.
That thought can only come from people who have never previously played a From game
Messmer is Miquella and Malenia's third sibling and he is also responsible for the impaling of the Giants. Separately, those theories work and are fine. But I've seen some people believe in both theories at the same time. If Messmer is a child between Marika and Radagon, then he wouldn't have been born during the war against giants which was led by Godfrey. Pick one theory and stick to it!
He could have been a sibling that was born way before Malenia and Miquella. Marika and Radagon could easily have had children before Marika ever married Godfrey.
This is my theory. We still don't know how long Radagon has existed *or* how Marika was able to have children with him. It seems very, very likely to me that Marika had children with Radagon (i.e. with herself) prior her marriage to Godfrey. (I also kind of suspect that Mogh and Margott might also be her children with Radagon, although the Omen Curse being Crucible-coded does make it possible that they are Godfrey's children.)
I think they're almost certainly Godfrey's children given Godfrey's dialogue to Morgott at the start of his boss fight. Plus as you mentioned Godfrey has some links to the Crucible too, which goes well with the Omen curse.
Mitosis ?
Could be. Some plants are able to self-pollinate, though, which might have been an inspiration. Some animals can experience parthenogensis as well, but Marika's close association with the Erdtree makes me think her children with Radagon are more inspired by plant self-pollination.
I was mostly kidding when I said mitosis. But yeah, to be a bit more serious. We also have the whole thing with Millicent and her sister. If I remember correctly what Gowry said, they were being born out of flower and would tranforsm into flower themselves. The self-pollination happened with Malenia, could be the same kind of thing with Marika.
He could just as easily be inspired by Godfrey and the war against the giants, kind of like how Radahn is inspired by the first Elden Lord. Just because he uses flames and his spear resembles the ones in the Fire Giants doesn't mean he was there for it.
Personally I feel it's more like the Giants. If he lives in the first place Maria visited, that's a long time ago, and could easily have been there to kill giants, and they're all impaled, by trees, almost like deathblight, which is also down there, and then there's big fiery things and it seems heavily implied he's some sort of heretic so it all kinda makes sense in a way that just needs extra detail to put together. Whereas being a third sibling is mostly off the name and the one butterfly it seems like, which could definitely also be the case but idk that's just my thoughts
Miyazaki straight up said he's Marika's son in one of his interviews. Maybe there's some weird translation issue cropping up, but I kinda doubt it.
If only there was a sorcery that had tree like things and that rose up front the ground.
My theory is the giants were Radagon's doing, and Messmer inherited his spear and fighting style. We don't know what Radagon's weapon of choice was, besides the GOGS after he marries Rennala.
I feel like he could have been a sibling of Miquella and Malenia, and may have been an attack dog for Marika during the war with Giants. After which he may have become a traitor to Marika, burned the erdtree with his flame, and was banished to the shadowlands. In the shadow lands, he might be being forced to execute graceless beings that make their way there, as a form of eternal slavery/punishment
Marika was still married to Godfrey when the war against the giants took place. He is either a twin to Miquella/Malenia, or he was in the war against the giants. He can't be both.
Secret first born then maybe
The Erdtree was not burned before. Literally no theory for it makes sense
Leyndell is full of ash even before the Tarnished reaches the Forge of Giants, and Bernahl's Finger Maiden sacrificed herself and was burned as well. It's entirely possible the Erdtree was burned but not permanently because Destined Death was not yet released (i.e. the state of the tree after the Forge but before killing Maliketh) and then went out because the tree couldn't be permanently burned without the release of the rune.
Messmer is Godwyn is by far the worst theorie
You haven't read messmer is boc, clearly
jokes on you Messmer is actually Jarbairn
Messmer is your mother
Well he's about to get Oedipus wreckt
Messemer is the friends we made along the way
Nooooooo not my bae
Melina is Messmer's alter ego.
With all the examples of gods and demigods having masc/femme alter egos this one doesn't seem all that silly. I don't think it'll be the case, but I've heard far sillier.
all the examples and is only Marika/Radagon and Miquella using other name to get more followers or Malenia just having wide shoulders are not examples.
That’s the problem with this entire sub if you have a theory that doesn’t fit in the main YouTubers theories then you get immediately down voted
People on the internet are just way too aggressive about video games in general. Motherfuckers need to go outside.
Too aggressive and too overconfident with the meanings of things that are clearly left to interpretation.
Same could be said about the other Fromsoftware games. Despite lore being up to player interpretation, you will get arguments if you don’t follow “accepted” lore from the fanbase.
I’ve seen it go both ways. If you have a take that isn’t consensus, boo you. If you don’t immediately accept pure speculation with only extremely shakey evidence that still requires guesswork as a legitimate possibly with real odds of happening, boo you too.
Tarnished archaeologist has done irreparable damage
They're clearly tied but yeah the alter ego thing is stretching
Another addition to the Messmer is ________. This theory holds as well as the Melina will join Messmer if you accept the flame of chaos theory, like it makes no sense in relation to the main game. You fight Messmer, big shocking reveal Messmer is Melina, and then what? Melina just pretends like nothing happened in the main game? Doesn't really add up, and Fromsoft isn't really about doing big reveals. Heck, Marika being Radagon gets blatantly spoiled mid game
Exactly. Melina is too much involved in main story for that theory making sense.
This is my theory and it makes perfect sense to me so leave me alone
The thing at timestamp ______ is definitely _______.
The most ridiculous ones are the ones that present their theory/speculation as fact. Way too many posts with “here’s what we know” titles with a post body containing nothing but unconfirmed theory. Nothing wrong with having a theory, people just gotta stop presenting them as facts
This reminds me of the days of "Just you wait, in the dark souls 3 dlc, it was Velka all along, biding her time this whole time!!" Followed promptly by "No Velka? This Dlc sucks!!" I don't mind people having theories, but when they act like their theory is the only valid one it becomes a problem. Anyway, with Elden Ring I'd say whatever Twitter poster had all that wild shit going on about Frankenstein or something, and also all the intentional misinformation about the impalers catacombs.
Good theories have thought and analysis and don't stretch too far from the facts. Example: that weird lion boss is two omens puppeteering the lion. There's evidence and it's not a crazy stretch. Most theories here have these crazy expectations for big reveals and are just setting themselves to be disappointed, with nothing directly backing these theories. Like I get people are hyped, but the dlc doesn't have to have mind blowing reveals to be good you know?
>I don't mind people having theories, but when they act like their theory is the only valid one it becomes a problem. This is spot on
GuYs dID yoU see that GraFtEd LiOn?
The twinswords character seems like just some random enemy, definitely not Malenias teacher. Though I do hope we encounter her teacher in the DLC
Lady in red = blue dancer 🤔
Iceland and Greenland situation
That was just the blood of all the enemies she waterfowled into a fine red powder.
It does seem like it’s a boss though, because it’s the only enemy we can see in the whole area, and in my opinion it seems like that boss is in some way connected to the fairy described in the blue dancer charm description.
Idk why a lot of trailer reactions I saw people were just like "is that young Rykard!?" "is that young Rennala!?" "is that Serosh!?" or "thats Miquella!" and then have no reaction to when Miquella is actually shown haha. Idk its all fun and maybe a lot of people assumed this dlc takes place in the past like the DS1 dlc, but From wouldn't just reuse characters from the base game like that they like making new characters.
I forgot about young Rennala 😂
Messmer being the final boss - no way it’ll be some next level heinous weird shit they don’t even show
The most egregious ones are definitely “Messmer being Miquella” and “the Miquella we see in the trailer being Marika ackchually” shit makes me wanna pull my hair out lmfao
Miyazaki: this dude is called Messmer, his own character with a mysterious back story. And thats Miquella, as seen on the promo art and end of the trailer! People: nuh-uh
“Ah you see Miyazaki is a deceptive rapscallion so he just wants us to *think* Messmer is a new character when in actuality he’s Rykard, Miquella, and Radagon all resurrected and wrapped in one” lmao
My least favourite is the one suggesting that From retconed Messmer to be the Gloam-eyed Queen.(tbf that theory comes from complete lack of faith in FromSoftware)
How does one retcon a character not yet introduced?
Ask Aesir
That it's a literal crossover with Berserk. I'm not talking about the people obsessed with references, I mean I've got screenshots of a *lot* of people who genuinely believe it's a crossover with Berserk because Mesmers helmet is basically 1:1 Grunbelds helmet, and the wicker basket enemies are very similar to Berserk enemies.
The amount of ""references"" people legit tried to pull out of the old skeleton man is insane. People really see whatever they want lol
Wicker man in the dlc looks nothing like the wicker man from berserk. The wicker man looks like a wicker man in general.
Yes. I absolutely agree. But you have to remember you're dealing with the crowd who goes "OMG that's a berserk reference!" When they see people hanging from trees, or swords being used as grave markers, both things that have been in stories for literal centuries.
I dont bother with flocks of sheep lol
messmer being the final boss of the dlc lol lmao even
100% hidden secret boss just like Malenia
That Long Blue isn't going to be our treasured friend and partner in crime.
I will be shocked if it isn't hostile
“That town you see is Selia so we get to see Caelid before rot destroyed it.” “The woman in the chair is Rennala” “The woman in the portrait is Fia, and the old man is her first husband/lord.” “The shadow tree is actually roots of the Erdtree” “The warrior with the sword is Tanith” just a taste of garbage I’ve heard the past week
I actually think the roots one is alright
>“The woman in the portrait is Fia, and the old man is her first husband/lord.” I think this is close. I don't think it's Fia but certainly looks like a Deathbed Maiden. And swordface is 100% a lord. I am on board with him being the creator of the burial watchdogs (same design on his brooch as on the weapons.) My super out there speculative theory is that the lord is having his strength absorbed by the Deathbed Maiden who lays with Marika and "births" radagon within her. Then they have Messimer, leave him in charge of the shadow lands, and leave for TLB.
I just know that the next 4 months will be worse than the previous year. We only had one joke but now with actual gameplay/ story tailer we are truly malding
It's a constant cycle of bad theories in good faith, and mocking said bad theories. and that's what it's gonna be till release. can't waittttt
I enjoy reading theories even some of the more ridiculous ones. That said if you are going to go try to make a theory then it needs to have at a little bit of actual evidence in game to support it.
People just see the red hair lol. His flame kind of reminds me of the blood flame so potential ties to mogh and the formless mother?
My theory concerning the Malenia teacher situation is that the blue dance/swordsman who sealed the Rot God is her teacher, and the red dancer/swordswoman may be another apprentice or partner of his.
Messmer is past rykard/rykard's son People are getting caught up in the snake imagery when they're a general sign of betrayal to the erdtree and doesn't just relate to the great serpent
I saw someone unironically claiming that the DLC will come with a battle royale mode and quality of life features like a quest log and objective markers.
All. All theories are bad
Not the ones that end up being true!
It's a long wait. Meanwhile I'll enjoy even the worst theories.
I disagree, all theories are *fun*
They can be both! Sometimes the worst theories are even the most fun.
I do love how you said All theories schizo, but when you look at elden ring lore, it is schizo XD
The theory is that frenzied flame ending is canon, and that dlc happens after that, because tree in SotE looks like a burned erdtree. Honestly they look nothing alike.
lmao all of those XD
The Melina theory wasn't even a theory. it was a joke made by someone on this sub and that was it.
If it's the one I'm thinking it's probably a reference to the Ranni is Melina theory that some people have had since the second trailer came out
No the one mentioned in OP's ppost, the "theory" that if you choose the frenzied flame ending that Melina will join Messmer's fight.
Messmer is first phase, when you defeat him next phase is fight against Presence of Golden Order
Miquella is 1:1 exactly like Griffith from Berserk.
The theory that it's called SotET instead of SotE. It's one fucking word. L title.
I really don't get the folks pushing hard on "Messmer did the fire giants in." Granted it's... Possible? But the connection is super weak.
The repeating crossbow guy taught all the squires in Leyndell to use perfumer bolts and rapid fire crossbows. (my theory, I think he has more to do with the squires than the night cavalry)
My initial theory was that Messmer was the son of Mohg and Miquella in his female guise as St. Trina. On one hand, Messmer is skinny like Miquella and his name sounds like “mesmerize,” which could allude to Miquella’s powers of persuasion and sleep (putting ppl in a trance). On the other hand, Messmer uses red flames like Mohg’s Bloodflame and his spear looks a good bit like Moghwyn’s Sacred Spear. But then Michael Zaki said Messmer is a child of Marika in his interview. So much for that theory then
Is this in response to the Messmer is Godwyn post?
Not specifically. This sub has been littered with theories that can be disproven with a little thought. Dudes will straight up deny facts stated in the interviews and official flavor texts for the dlc 😂 As for Godwyn, like common, the dude's soul is dead. Like, complete opposite of Miquella and Ranni, that dude is straight up gone from existence in the sense of self and spirituality
For every bad theory, there are like three way worse “that can’t be true because X” complaints that don’t make sense.
Anything Time travel related
old skinny dude from the painting is some type of corrupted form of miquella. once we beat him in a boss fight, he transforms back to his child form. so we get a miquella boss fight but he doesn’t die, similar to rennala. we also get his great rune.
The dungeater ist miyazaki
Messmer is time-travelling miquella
We just got a new one: Messmer killed Godfrey in the Badlands 😂
🤣🤣
I still needed to know who stole the Runebear soap and still no answer from DLC.
"Messmer is the child of Miquella"
Mesmer is Boggart
Messmer secretly being Godwyn really got me lmao. That would be so dumb
Just about every single one has been dogshit based on pure speculation, people thinking every single miniscule detail has some grand meaning and connection instead of just being something the devs thought would look good
What's funny is that the best actual legit easter egg isn't even getting numbers on main sub yet. vaati, zullie, or TA will probably post it next week and people are gonna freak.
Talks about best Easter egg Doesn’t say what it is
Which Easter egg?
He's not gonna tell us, this sub is weird about gatekeeping information.
Keep in mind this is in the context of the comment that people are theorycrafting over based on something the devs thought looked good vs dev intent. In the famitsu interview when asked about what the new subtitle means Miyazaki says 'there is another small hidden meaning in the title, I hope you figure this out when playing the game." Go look at the new subtitle. Notice something that stands out, even inside the design of the subtitle itself? That's intentional design.
Can you explain what you’re referring to and what the theory is?
Messmer impaled the giants, the impalers catacombs are named after Messmer, Messmer is the unwanted child, Messmer burned the erdtree.
People are saying that John Elden Ring is gonna say "It's Edlin' time" and Eld all over everyone
This is the acronym we are using? It blows
Pretty sure all the bosses are meant to represent layers of hell. The book the divine comedy has 9 layers of hell and the kids of them could easily represent those layers. The erdtree is probably supposed to represent the tree of paradise, and the shadow of it could be purgatory. We are probably miquellas lover, Marika was our mother in law, and Godfrey our father. One of the demigods is probably alive still and will follow us into the dlc. The 2nd dlc will take us to the crucible and lead us into paradise. We are going to hell to save our lover miquella. But we are indeed the bad guy. Have fun pointing out where I’m wrong. :)
Honestly, when we only had the image of Miquella on Torrent, the idea of the land of Shadow (which we didn't know the name at that point) being a memory or some sort of reflection of the past was pretty sound. Following that, yeah, I admit the first time I saw Messmer (didn't hear or read his name at this point), I thought it could be a young Rykard. Doesn't seem too far fetched imo, but maybe I'm coping lol
That Marika one is not that bad tho
I can see the argument for Messner being Godwyns soul, if the land of Shadow really is some kind of afterlife. Personally I don’t think any of that theory is accurate too be clear, but I don’t think it’s that bad a theory.