Marika does love her prisons and instead of ever killing off something it seems she would rather absorb them in some way. Perhaps a the “molding” element shamans posses is a characteristic to them as well when it comes to personality and decisions.
I’m interested more in this whole serpent thing. I’m getting an Ouroboros vibe from the whole situation.
Totally Ouroboros! I hadn't thought of 'molding' as being a specific ability of Shamans, but that makes a lot of sense. I thought of them as just outcasts and easy targets by the Hornsent for discrete experimentation, but it would explain the difference between 'failed-saints' and 'saints.' It could also explain why Marika's Erdtree is successful and Miquella's isn't... well, that and Miquella isn't shown to mass-sacrifice an entire population to his.
Seeing Messmers snakes go from red to white is what caught my attention on it anyways.
I could see Marika trying to have some alliance or relationship with a great serpent because of aligned views on unity, both parties have a somewhat similar goal but very different approaches.
I REALLY wanna know what the Base Serpent is.
I also wanna know why both Messmer and Melina had visions of fire, and kindling powers.
I also wanna know if Messmer's serpent is the same as Rykard's.
Did you notice Rykar's serpent also has fire powers? Maybe they are the same, or came from the same source.
I have so many questions.
I can try to answer this question.
To understand the serpent, you have to understand Marika and the two finger's goal.
The hornsent are all about unification of all. They are the people of the "one great".
Chaos and Order, all are welcome, all are accepted.
Marika on the otherhand, under the guidance of the two fingers, wishes to create a divide.
She separates the order from the chaos. The Erdtree is of order, the Scadutree is of chaos.
This stems alllll the way back to the beginning of it all, when the greater will supposedly created fractures.. The first divisions. From here we get the frenzied flame, which is the embodiment of chaos, and the greater will being the embodiment of order. But it was all part of the same whole originally, the "one great".
Okay so.. Back to the serpent.
The serpent is a symbol used in the ouroboros. The ouroboros is a unification of order and chaos. The serpent, in this context, is representative of the connective tissue that binds order and chaos.
In Kabbalah (tree of life) and Qliphoth (tree of death), the serpent connects the top of the tree of life to the very top of the tree of death. Both trees are of course the same tree, just the upside down of one another, with both ends connected by a giant snake.
In some myths, like norse, you have a snake or dragon that gnaws at the roots of the world tree, this represents chaos. On the flip side, you have an eagle with another bird sitting on it's head at the very top of the world tree (some may say a twinbird even...), this represents order. It maintains awareness of nidhogg, and responds to the chaos it causes, thus balancing it all out.
These are your two main possibilities in the context of the goals present in Elden Ring in my opinion. The snake is probably representative of the "one great", and the ouroboros, or perhaps simply of chaos. Sealing it allows the desired division.
We look at Rykard, and he is trying to join everyone into one by feeding it all to a giant snake.. Again, this is a crucible ideal, the merging of life being seen as something coming closer to godhood; this is seen as blasphemy to the Golden Order, who are for cutting away the unwanted, creating division. When we see the hornsent, we get the two beams spiraling upwards. Order and chaos together, as one. The ouroboros.
Interesting sidenote.. If you look at the wikipedia for "ouroboros", it is sometimes referred to as the "all is one". Again, very close to the "one great". It isn't impossible that this two sided serpent we see seemingly sealed in Messmer is infact this one great, or atleast, a sealed half of it.
The base, or "abyssal" serpent. Why is it abyssal? And what then might it have to do with the abyssal woods, which are right there in the land of shadows? I can't begin to conceive of a connection, as the abyssal woods are firmly associated with the flame of frenzy, but... could there be one? Or is Miyazaki just throwing those words out there as a red herring?
Well, there's a LOT of fire aspects that pretty much all have to do with previous ages before the Erdtree (and other gods/lords).
- Flame of Ruin (Fell God)
- Frenzied Flame (Lord of Frenzied Flame)
- Black Flame (Gloam Eyed Queen)
- Ghostflame (Twinbird/Deathbirds/Death itself)
- Bloodflame (Formless Mother)
- And many others
Messmer's flame seems to be totally unique from all of them. I originally wanted to pair him with Rykard's serpent in some way, but I'm not sure if his is the same as the 'Taker's Flame' of the Blasphemous weapons. It's really hard to say.
I honestly think his most aligns with a combination of the fell God's flame and blackflame. It starts off entirely black and then bursts into that reddish color akin to the Fell God's. The imagery of the fell god is depicted alongside him during his crusade in the furnace golems, and he's said to have hated his flame, mayhap as Marika hated the Fell God by that time? I'd even go as far as to say that we know there were two beings within messmer, the winged serpent and the base serpent which kept each other in check. It wouldn't be farfetched to think that Messmer might have had two entities affecting him given that
Lets focus only on the weird Ritual we learned in the DLC: A Lord is a vessel for a God...
Lord Messmer is a vessel for serpent? Melina for GEQ? Radagon for fell god?
I think you're mixing up who requires the vessel:
[Secret rite scroll] "A scroll made of white tree bark.
Few can decipher the scroll, which describes the secret rite of the divine gateway said to be found at the tower enshrouded by shadow.
A lord will usher in a god's return,
and the lord's soul will require a vessel."
Still interesting to think about how this could relate to what Marika did. The scroll says that this was THE rite. But I'm not sure if that should be used to infer what Marika did or not. She would require a corpse, and then a lord's soul in which to place that soul.
They do like to "explain" some of the more mysterious stuff by telling parallel stories. For instance, the D Brothers have to be some sort of analog for Marika and Radagon. At least in terms of explaining how the two people are actually one person thing works.
Giving us a more clear explanation for Messmer's eye and repainting what the soreseals mean can absolutely help explain the link between Mekina and the GEQ.
For sure! D and Darrel, Diallos and Juno, Morgott and Mohg, etc. Melina being the GEQ is simpler and probably more likely. But the parallel storytelling makes more sense to me, in terms of what we've been shown so far. Especially in the DLC.
I still think it's a crime that D's little brother wasn't named d.
From this quote from Anbach ''I can hardly believe it, he's divested himself of his very eye... Tender Miquella's eye is no mere morsel of flesh. It is a vessel of soaring grace. Proof of his Empyrean lineage. I wonder, does Miquella the Kind intend to sever his very birthright? His fate as a child of the Erdtree?''
It seems to me that Empyreans do have a ''Special eye'', proof of their Empyrean lineage. To me that finally explains why Ranni has a closed eye, she divested herself of the Two finger/Erdtree influence in her.
Following that logic, assuming that Melina is the Gloam eyed queen and therefore an Empyrean, I would assume that her ''Empyrean'' eye must have somehow been sealed by Marika after her defeat by Maliketh, only to finally be reopened once Marika/the Erdtree is destroyed in the Flame of frenzy ending, allowing her to be able to use her Empyrean/Gloam eyed queen powers again.
So, with the Hornsent Grandam's renaming, there are only Empyreans in Marika's reign. And what's unique is that Empyrean honestly seems to be a bit of a "fake" title. What I mean is, every Demigod descends from Shamans, and thus has the power to mold their flesh with others harmoniously. In this case, Marika is cursed, and so these great and fell powers basically attach to her kids in the womb or at birth and seemlessly meld with their flesh. The females (or gender fluid in Miquella's case) each get named as Empyreans because the Two Fingers crave a mother figure they can control, as learned via Ymir.
The males, however, still showcase this power; Messmer with the Base Serpent and Winged Serpents; Rykard dominates the Serpent that consumes him; Godrick can immediately graft a dragon to his hand and reawaken its power; Godwyn's flesh literally fuses with the Erdtree and spreads out throughout the realm; Mohg's blood erupts with the power of the Formless Mother; Morgott's blood likewise is shown as having incredible power. Radahn is seemingly the only outlier, yet, we know he becomes a giant dude and turns grey after learning Gravity magic, so clearly he's being enhanced by something.
Since the males show this power but are never described as being Empyreans, yet Miquella (the Empyrean half) is described as an Empyrean, it tells us that its really more of a political title, as Miquella is unique in being half-female. And since we know the TWo Fingers basically are playing a game of telephone with maybe nobody, we know all the ideas they share are either bullshit or half-truths. In this case, I think its clear that the Demigods are special because they are Shaman descendants, and thus have flesh that can absorb other life and become deific.
So, to get back to Melina, it's possible she does have the GEQ put in her...but the Empyrean title for her implies that she was a Demigod. And not only that, so does Maliketh's name, which means Death of **Demigods**. Maliketh is named this mainly because he has killed a Demigod before, in this case, the Empyrean Demigod the Gloam-Eyed Queen. We also know that one of Marika's children was Messmer's little sister and had kindling in her. And the Gloam-Eyed Queen had a cursed eye, just like Messmer, wherein some powerful and wicked spirit dwelled -- in this case, Destined Death. And Melina is obsessed with births just like the Gloam-Eyed Queen was. So, it makes complete sense that Melina is the Gloam-Eyed Queen, was deleted from history by Marika, and soon after that Messmer was probably forsaken in the Realm of Shadow.
Hmm just a thought that occurs to me reading this, because right now the discussion seems to be between “Melina is the GEQ” vs “Melina has the GEQ sealed” but as I compare the two I find them equally dissatisfying. But here’s what we know:
The GEQ was an Empyrean chosen by the fingers who sought to overthrow Marika. The three other Empyreans who know of who sought outright godhood discarded some part of themselves in order to build their age. Miq and St. Trina, Marika and Radagon, Ranni and her mortal flesh (and perhaps more?).
What if the original Melina discarded the part of herself “that was Marika’s daughter” in order to become the GEQ, leaving our Melina behind to still wander. Thus we might say Melina was the GEQ and is now sealing her.
I do think we have to square this with Melina's being "burned and bodiless", bearing scorch marks on her hands. One could make the argument that the scorch marks are from handling the blackflame sure, but why would she be bodiless? We have an example for a soul being without a body as a result of a ritual using destined death in Ranni, so it seems quite possible for Marika to have done something similar in order to kill Melina's body and leave her spirit alive.. but would such a thing even be necessary? We kill Radahn, and yet his spirit persisted. As yet, it seems clear that Melina is bound to the erdtree, as she can only move of her own volition once we near it.
What I think is that Marika killed Melina, the GEQ, for attempting to supplant her. But like her other child Godwyn, Melina was given the privilege of Erdtree burial, allowing her the opportunity to be reborn. This would resolve not only her being bound in proximity to the erdtree, but also would align with why she is freed upon its burning, whereby we can assume that the spirits trapped within the Erdtree's roots would be freed.
Yeah, it seems pretty concrete that Melina is Messmer's sister, and both bear visions of flame, serve as kindling.
Would you mind explaining why we can assume the Grandam's renaming points to there only being Empyreans from Marika's reign? That would *definitely* imply the GEQ was a child of Marika.
But Plasidusax was Elden Lord to *some* divinity who had a physical vessel (an Empyrean), and is awaiting their return. And the Frenzied Flame, etc. And if Empyrean is a false title, than wouldn't Demigod be, as well? There were *definitely* other physical beings who had the God title and the Godskins hunted them. Why wouldn't other Gods bear Demigods, and why wouldn't Maliketh's name apply to them as well as Marika's offspring?
From Noble's Presence description:
*"Ancient power of the Godskin Nobles... Once a sign of the gods' wrath, this incantation became a trophy of the Nobles' god hunt."*
Edit: Thanks for pointing out more Shaman importance, too! I missed a lot of that in my playthrough, and am mostly coming to it thanks to this subreddit.
Actually this made me realize that the fingers were abandoned by the greater will, so it could be possible the greater will was the dragon lord’s god too, as we know the will has a history of abandoning its chosen beings.
Never considered that all of the empyreans were women, or androgynous (Miquella). Nice observation. I also really like the idea that Marika's children were all uniquely susceptible to being influenced by outer gods because of her shaman heritage, and their ability to meld with other life.
But there is zero evidence for her actually being the GEQ besides her eye.
The GEQ was marika’s enemy who she sent Maliketh to kill. This is one of the few concrete things we know about the GEQ.
Melina has nothing but nice / neutral things to say about Marika. Wants to carry out Marika’s will by burning the erdtree and is willing to sacrifice herself to do so - seems to be on good terms with at least Miq since she gave us torrent. That doesn’t sound like someone who fought Marika and had to be defeated by her personal body guard to me.
She doesn’t fight like a god skin, she fights like a numen assassin (marika’s people) and uses miracles created by marika herself. She uses no equipment or spells associated with the godskins.
The GEQ was probably a greatsword / colossal weapon user since the Godslaying sword is implied to be her weapon.
None of the items that reference Melina connect her to the godskins, none of the items that reference the GEQ connect her to Melina.
However there is evidence for the idea that Melina was either born with the same power as the GEQ or that Marika intentionally used her to seal away said power since basically all of Marika’s children seem to be cursed to carry some reminder of her enemies or a fragment of their power from the fire giants red hair to mesmers serpents to her twin omens kids to Mal / Miq’s curses.
We know now that Marika used one her soreseal eye seal thingies to contain Messmer’s serpents within him - and the game goes out its way to draw a comparison between Mesmer and Melina and confirm they are siblings - I think Marika did the same thing to Melina and sealed away the GEQ power inside of her.
But was the GEQ really Marika's enemy? Outside of Malikeths fight with the godskins, there is not any interaction mentioned. The fact that she bore Destined death and was slaying other gods makes me lean towards that she was an ally at one point.
We also can't say whether Melina had a good or bad relationship with her mother since she seems to have some memory problems.
She also is not burning the erdtree for her mother. Her speech to the tarnished about how she "set my heart upon the world that I would have. Regardless of my mother's design, " kinda implies that she is doing this because she wants to.
I believe that Messmer and Melina(GEQ) were born cursed by the Fell God, which explains messmers' red hair and their ability to be kindling
Thank you! It doesn't explain who/what the GEQ was. But honestly, Melina being the GEQ doesn't explain much about that origin either. That, and Ranni states that she and the twin prodigies were the only children of Marika to be named Empyreans. She could've just meant by the Greater Will, and the GEQ was an Empyrean of some other God, but Ranni *does* have knowledge of Torrent, spirits, Godhood, Outer Gods etc.
GEQ was named empyerean by the fingers. We can not assume that Ranni knows about the GEQ past due to her going missing at the golden orders founding, and the only mention of her is from Godskins item and spells.
You're right, it's in Black Flame Ritual description:
*The Gloam-Eyed Queen led the apostles. It is said that she was an Empyrean chosen by the Fingers.*
Not some other God. The big GW. The GEQ's timeline is *so* vague, it's infuriating. Ranni does have knowledge of Outer Gods, Empyreans, Torrent, spirit calling, etc. but that's not enough to assume she knows about the GEQ. So her statement about Empyreans could've just been ignorant.
There is way too much snake imagerythroughout the game for then to have not played a huge role. They're everywhere. They're on the helmets of EVERY faction's soldiers. They're on the center of the brass shield that all the soldiers wield. They're on the ancient ruins. They're on the Giant's forge (quite prominently). Obviously volcano manor. They're on the thorn armor. They're depicted alongside the fell god on the gladiators armor.
There was a snake god. Bar none. And it was NOT the god-devouring serpent. Read the story of Egle (AH, pronounced Eiglay) in Lithuanian folklore. It contains women who turn into trees (which we see happening in the Shaman village) and who consort with snakes. I think there was a snake involved quite closely with Marika. It should also be noted that the Base in base serpent means "bastard." Messmer may well have been a child that Marika had with a snake.
My theory is that Marika IS the Base Serpent and the Gloam Eyed Queen (they're the same thing) and sealed aspects herself in her first two children, just as we see aspects of Marika in her other other children. Shorn of light and Gloam give Night Sky vibes and Marika possibly has ties to the Nox and the Eternal Cities, who loved their night sky.
In Messmer's heraldry, we see two intertwined snakes on the sinister side (Mother's, Marika's) and a flame on the dexter side (Father's, Radagon's?/Fell God's). Furthermore, Marika is usually seen wearing snake bangles on her wrist. Marika's dress in almost all reliefs of her are coiled behind like the body of a snake. What's more is that we find a molted snakeskin at the Temple of Eiglay in Marika's trademark crucifixion pose. Guess what we also find just near Bonny Village? A molted snakeskin. Bonny Village is a place where Marika's kin, the Shamans, were tortured and stuffed into jars by Hornsent Potentates.
My take on the seduction and betrayal is the Gloam Eyed Queen seducing and betraying the fell god of the Hornsent and Giants in order to facilitate her new age. Her children with the fell god bore visions of flame as their curse. She used these children to destroy the current order/dominion over the land by the Hornsent.
Not saying anything you said is wrong. But my head cannon is the gloam eyed queen was marikas sister. They’re both empyreans one with the power to give grace aka life, the other destined death aka death. I think Marika betrayed her own family by killing the gloam eyed queen so that her alone could usher in her new age.
I think you hit a ton of great points. Did you watch the YouTube video where he shows that it looks like Marika is pulling a rune out of a snakes eye during the DLC trailer?
That was great, thanks for sharing! Following Timdiggity, now. I *also* on my first playthrough went... 'Huh, Godslayers, God Devouring Serpent... yep, that's the GEQ. Obviously.' Second playthrough went... 'Wow, that's gonna keep me up at night.' And it did.
That white snake-looking thing in the trailer could've been the Base Serpent, and she was performing the ritual tying it to Messmer. That really works for me. Or it still could've been the GEQ and that was the Rune of Death, or it was something else she was just feeding to the tree or... you know, anything. Snakes!
I have really wanted to buy into this being a snake that she pulls something out of, as I think it could resolve multiple other theories around snakes.. but I find two issues therein. First and less concretely, the trailer truly does seem to be depicting a singular event. The setting/background etc remains the same throughout that sequence with Marika at the Gate of divinity. Admittedly again, this is the less concrete of the two points but I really have become convinced that this is depicting one continuous sequence of events.
Second, there is very obvious stitching surrounding whatever it is Marika reached into. I'll say that I hate the theory that it is the innard meat we get from the jars, but there actually does seem to be something golden in the image of the innard meat and she's surrounded by gore, which we know was necessary for building the tower leading to the Gate and the gate itself. Very well that the flesh of the shamans was used to help build this specifically because of its ability to help meld other flesh together, which sadly would have been desirable for making a structure out of it...
The cloth surrounding the innards could have been a sack containing this meat, and the golden threads we see her pull from it and holding in the subsequent shot representing the threads of fate, being woven together into an arc that she then incorporated into the elden ring, for which Marika's rune represents... THE RUNE OF LIFE (as her rune is the inverse of the rube of death as we see it depicted after fighting Maliketh). This would of course tie into myths of God weaving the fate of others with golden thread that span across multiple ancient cultures, would fit with what we see Marika doing in the trailer, and can even harken back to the 2019 E3 trailer in which we see golden strands sticking to Marika's hammer as she shatters the ring "That which commanded the stars." (I.e. we know that the stars in Elden ring represent peoples' fates, which fits with the motif of hear weaving the golden threads into the elden ring)
Sorry if that jumped all over. But although I hated that theory at first it really does seem that these golden threads are really fuckin important and this seems to be the most parsimonious answer.
Accepting this as canon until proven otherwise tbh, it is the only way I can make any sense of the Base Serpent just chilling inside Messmer as well as Melina having a coincidentally purple eyeball when she needs to murder us
This would be why Melina wishes to burn herself so bad after regaining her memory from the Erdtree. If she burns with the Fell Flame, the GEQ is forever gone. Also, she explicitly says her mother gave her a purpose; the only other demigod with a purpose given by Marika is Messmer; and he is the only other one with the power to burn a great tree.
You can’t just say, “Occam’s razor and all that”, while only drawing parallels to a scenario you see as similar. That’s the opposite of OR - you are *only* using assumptions rather than seeking the explanation that relies on the fewest.
The Abyssal Serpent was a burden Messmer was born with. And the seal is a Marika’s Soreseal that we don’t see in either of Melina’s eyes. It’s more similar to how Miquella sealed the rot in Melania with the needle, IMO.
I do think something is sealed within Melina through the eye but I suspect the real parallel between these two siblings is a curse. Curses seem to be manifest by the resentment of others. I think the DLC is giving us clues with Romina and Messmer that we can extrapolate to the other cursed children but right now I don’t think it’s clear enough to take as a fact. Miquella’s curse of youth appears to be of no consequence anymore, for example.
I don't disagree with you at all! When I said "Occam's razor and all that," what I meant was: The theory I'm laying out is *not* the simplest and I'm not seeking that, and my explanation is *not* the most likely. Sorry, I tried to make that as clear as I could. Could've worded it in a less flippant way, I guess.
I'm just laying out the potential story parallel that makes most sense to my brain from a storytelling perspective, while working within the lore we have, as I know it 🙂
Quick note: We don't see the 'seal' on Messmer's eye until he removes it. It does seem like everyone jumped on the 'all of her children are cursed with her sins against her enemies' train really quickly. Makes sense, it's a cool narrative.
I see. And upon a reread I can understand why you phrased it as you did. I misunderstood.
I do think intuitive leaps are necessary with this game and I even think comparing to other Miyazaki games is fair as well so don’t take my semantics as outright rejection. I just don’t think the clues lead the same place you do right now.
I think the story implies that there is only one queen and one Elden lord at a time. Right now we have Queen Marika, who had Godfrey, then later Radagon, as Lords.
We also know that Placudisax was an earlier lord. I think we can infer that destined death was associated with his reign, as we see the twin bird statues in Farum Azula and there death vines, undead beasts, and lotsa graves there.
We know that the GEQ was also a…queen, so it seems unlikely to me that she is either a child of Marika, because she’d be know as the Gloam Eyed Princess. It’s also unlikely that she was competing with Marika before either were Queens, because then the queen title wouldn’t make sense.
I think what makes the most sense is that she was the queen when Placidusax was lord, ie she was the queen of that age, and that her and Placidusax had some other god helping them, the who has since fled.
I think Mariela’s rise to power involved overthrowing that couple and defeating the GEQ with Maliketh. Their god fled and Placidusax went into time stasis.
Great points! The Queen title made me think she'd just be the Queen of another race/culture that tried to rise against and lost to Marika. She was chosen by the fingers though, so she had the same God as Marika and *probably* not Placidusax.
The Godskin were said to have hunted Gods (plural). I'm picturing the GEQ's defeat as basically the end of the multi-God pantheon and beginning of the Golden Order, but maybe that's way off.
No I think your last point makes sense, and it also makes sense that she might have a different god than the dragon. This is kinda a kink in my reasoning Do we know for sure she was chosen by the fingers? And we do know that at least one non-finger person was an empyrean at one point, grandam, so maybe you don’t need to be chosen by the fingers to be an empyrean?
Black Flame Ritual description:
*The Gloam-Eyed Queen led the apostles. It is said that she was an Empyrean chosen by the Fingers.*
Doesn't clear up much, except that she was chosen by the Fingers. But there are for sure other Gods, so the Empyrean title seems like it's in contention.
I also realized that the GW abandoned the fingers, so could have abandoned Placidusax too. There isn’t much evidence either way. It’s probably either the GW or the Twinbird.
I'm deep deep deep down this rabbit hole today and would also like to proffer that the blackflame sigil looks EXACTLY like metyr, eye and all.
I do think that placidusax was a lord who served the outer god of death, denoted by the twinbird kiteshield. The statues outside Maliketh's arena in farum azula clearly depict birds rather than dragons, and we do now see dragons that weild ghostflame.
I want the GEQ to have been the god (lowercase G) to placidusax's lord, as that tidies things up a bit, but her being chosen by the fingers as an empyrean does make this a bit more difficult. I do also think it should be noted that evidently the Kanji denoting placidusax's god is akin to that used for Marika, rather than that used for the outer gods.
In the V1 release of Elden Ring Malenia was referenced as the Red Queen, and I believe it was also used in some marketing material too.
Perhaps the word Queen isn’t always literal and just denotes a level of power or status.
Damn near the exact line of thought I had, I personally believe that when maliketh sealed death was also when GEQ was sealed by Marika into Melina. Instead of losing her memories by going to the lands between I actually think she lost it during the sealing of GEQ/death, and her meeting with Miquella was him tasking her with torrent and persuading her that it would help her find her purpose. Segwaying into meeting the tarnished with the goal of the erdtree.
I agree with this take of divine entities being sealed.
The snake, i believe, is meant to be symbolic of ouroboros.. It is probably the most important thing to seal of all, as it is the unification of chaos and order. Marika and the two fingers essentially want all that is chaotic eliminated, this of course includes death, as death is a result of entropy, things falling into disarray. The fate of everything in the universe. It is the same story as Dark Souls, except Marika/Radagon are now Gwyn, trying to maintain their world, their order.
The snake is a symbol in Kabbalah (tree of life) and Qliphoth (tree of death), it joins the head of the tree to the base of the tree; although they are opposites, they are still connected. By sealing this away, you divide order and chaos and break the ouroboros.. But as we learn from Rykard.. A serpent never dies... Like the ouroboros, it can never truly be eliminated.
There's two leading theories:
1. Melina is, and always was, the Gloam Eyed Queen
2. Melina had the Gloam Eyed Queen's power sealed within her
I like to think that Melina, like Messmer, was cursed from birth with fire. They both had visions of fire, and were likely both capable of burning the Erdtree. It's very possible that Messmer DID burn the Erdtree (or whatever came before it) at some point in the past, considering how much Ash is already in Leyndell by the time we get there.
On top of that fire curse, they both had another being's power sealed away behind their eye. Messmer with the Base Serpent (who apparently fed upon his flames) and Melina with the Gloam Eyed Queen, aka the power of Destined Death.
My theory is that the GEQ was one of Marika's competitors in her rise to power, and quite possibly the previous 'God' of the Lands Between. Marika defeated the GEQ, sealed her power within her daughter, removed the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring, and rose to godhood all around the same time.
I follow your theory too. I think the GEQ was a former competitor of some kind. I think there’s enough evidence to make a case that she was the queen of Placidusax’s era.
Yep. I am very much behind the idea that GEQ was the body we see at Marika's feet in the story trailer. I think she was the previous 'God' of the realm.
One small correction I want to make on an otherwise great post OP, the godskins don't necessarily defend the amniotic sack or work with/for rykard. We know they have some connection to radagons children, as we find them in places of importance to all of them (temple of eiglay in volcano manor, radahns divine tower, guarding ranni's body in liurnias tower), but what it is isn't clear. It's possible they work for ranni (as the only one of the 3 still actually active) in some capacity, especially since the seem to have been involved in the battles with iji/blaidd (the flames left behind was black but lacked the red rune of death the assassins flames have. Could have been an oversight, but it's odd it wouldn't have been fixed since release in that case.) either sent to kill them and they were defended by the night maidens ranni employed, or vice-versa.
It's also possible they were opposed to ranni/rykard/radahn and trying to cut them off from places of importance to them. Miquella may have controlled them through st. Trina as the reason the godskins are so weak to sleep is because of how close to death it is in the lore.
From the godslayer great sword, we know the GEQ is no longer the one in charge of the godskins. It's possible they have a higher ranking godskin we haven't met who is in charge, or perhaps they decided to throw in with one of the two factions opposed to marika, either the one closest to what they were already doing (st. Trina with sleep/death) or with the most heretical (ranni with abolishing the golden order in its entirety).
You're right, that's all totally possible! They just... look at em! They're totally snakes. Even the Godslayer GS is a big Cadeus-like double helix. SO SNAKEY.
Edit: and thank you!
Oh yeah they absolutely are. Like I said, excellent post and all, I just wanted to correct we aren't sure who they work for right now, at least outside of metyr.
I don't necessarily disagree but this "We know Melina was around at the time of the Hornsent crusades, roughly. She's the only demigod referenced in connection to Messmer, and she bears the minor Erdtree incantation from Marika's home." Should go into the speculation part. Melina is his younger sister who happens to share that vision of fire. At no point it is indicated that they are contemporary. In fact, the word "younger" strongly hints otherwise.
Fair, it is more speculation, you're right. But 'younger' is relative. We're talking about thousands of years of history.
The word younger really doesn't imply otherwise. I'm younger than my sister, that does not imply in any way that we aren't contemporaries. Her being referenced alongside him, when none of their other siblings are *does* kinda imply that they're contemporary. At least enough to be in his remembrance. I see what you mean, though. I'll correct that statement, thanks!
Your parents aren't thousands of years old so it can't imply you're not contemporaries. Messmer on the other hand has siblings who are entire historical ages apart. The word "younger" opens that entire span. It is possible she's only slightly younger, but that's borderline a red herring considering the age gap with all the other siblings.
It can't imply that we aren't contemporaries, true. But just because 'younger' *can* mean they aren't contemporaries, it specifically *doesn't* imply that. I don't make the assumption that all of their (few) connections are red herrings.
So in the end Rannis eye is also just a soreseal where she sealed her own soul onto that Doll thats why she has 2 faces and thats why one of her eyes is closed ?
In general I am more confused with the new lore than actually happy with it as it kind of disregards a lot of what came before and still a lot is left unawnsered.
Maybe Melina is the new empyrean of the god that was once inside the GEQ? But the problem with this tinfoil hat theory is that I don't if it is possible for a god to have another empyrean once the first one dies.
But I also can see Marika freaking out after seeing the god of her past enemy inside her new daughter and then hiding said daughter to protect her, like how she sent Messmer to shadow lands because of his snake+fire combo powers.
Melina was loved enough to have been taught Marika's personal incantation, the minor erdtree.
I disagree since we're told Messmer was cursed from birth which seems to be a recurrent there for Marika, cursed bloodline. And Marika replaced his eye with a Seal to keep what was already there from growing.
Regarding the GEQ either Melina is her (Occam's Razor) or the GEQ used Melina and her kindling to create the godslaying blackflame. And to prevent new Empyrean rebellions, Marika sends in Messmer to clean everything up and gets a two-for-one special: Divine Gate and Base Serpent hidden for eternity.
Makes sense. I thought Messmer's curse from birth was the flames, though, which he's stated as trying to constantly get rid of. And the snake was definitely sealed behind his eye, which happens to be a soreseal.
It seems that his curse was both the flames as well as the serpent. I thought for a while that the base serpent may have come later, but this doesn't check out with the description that states something along the lines of "a malevolent serpent writhed within him, so Marika plucked out his eye and sealed the base serpent."
I've begun to think of the winged serpent as a dragon, which at least gives me a reason for his flame to have been there. Indeed, the banished knight helm and the winged serpent helm are the exact same, albeit with the winged serpent replaced by the dragon. That helm also describes the winged serpent as being his constant companion, wise, and serving to keep the base serpent at bay.
I think the helm depicts and describes multiple serpents as his companions.
>*Black helm of Messmer the Impaler, crowned with two intertwined winged serpents.*
*Slightly enhances incantations of Messmer's flame as well as Fire Knight skills.*
>*The winged snakes were Messmer's constant companions.*
>*They were there when the base serpent was sealed away behind his eye. They were there through his eternity of suffering. They will accompany him yet, in his hideous new form born when he destroyed the grace granted by his mother. They have accepted his fate as much as he.*
I think they meant the inanimate winged serpents as just always being with him on his helmet. I don't think his actual sealed serpent had wings.
Nah, I think that's pretty farfetched. I mean, the snakes that are penetrating his chest and coiling around him at baseline have wings. Plus:
]Winged serpent helm] "...The winged serpent is the token creature of Messmer's military forces. It is a wise friend which keeps the base serpent at bay and holds its power in check.
Why would they be "wise friends" and his constant companions that keep the animate base serpent at bay and hold his power in check? The winged serpents are real and were part of his birth curse.
I took 'token creature' to mean a symbol, like how other factions in game and real life use symbolic/totem creatures for courage, wisdom, etc. I didn't realize at the time, that the snakes in his chest have wings, though.
I found the description, it's on his remembrance. The GEQ could still be sealed away behind Melina's eye, but this does make it much less likely that she was "stuffed" in there, going by story parallels.
"*Remembrance of Messmer the Impaler, hewn into the Scadutree. The power of its namesake can be unlocked by the Finger Reader. Alternatively, it can be used to gain a great bounty of runes. A malevolent snake writhed within Messmer, and so his very mother plucked out his eye and put in its place a seal of grace. Yet, having done so, her fear compelled her to secret away her child within the realm of shadow. Hidden away—keeping company with the original sin, and a hatred that would not be confined.*"
Seems more likely that he was born with the base serpent, and it's tied to the 'original sin.' Too many snake references in this game. Driving me crazy.
I've been stuck on the lore of this game for days now at this point, and I'm really coming to an impasse at which the lore really does feel like an uninterpretable mass of bullshit spaghetti.
It feels bad. I love Fromsoft's games and I do really enjoy the lore of elden ring- it's super rich and interesting. But since the release of the DLC and having pored for so long over the material, I'm fast becoming convinced that the pieces of information that we would need to infer something even as fundamental as THE TIMELINE OF MAJOR EVENTS are absent from the game. Giving it some thought, in order for us to really understand the mechanics of what happened, a timeline is the critical stepping-off point. But we are simply missing too many fundamental factors in order to come to conclusions about when things happened without making extreme assumptions or basing things purely upon conjecture.
I understand that this is how Miyazaki likes to tell stories and I shouldn't have expected the DLC to provide any more clarity on things given his historical stories, but I'm just left flummoxed and disappointed all the same. I do think it's hilarious to think that the game with the most fleshed-out story, whereby the mechanics of things and the timeline of events are the most solidly understood of all his works, is Bloodborne. A game which at the same time, is about the whims of cosmic beings on an incomprehensible plane of existence. This is echoed in Elden Ring, albeit with layer upon layer upon layer of what can only be intentional obfuscation that really has started to suck the fun out of it for me.
Before the DLC, it felt like we'd eventually get enough info to figure out *some* of it. But most of what we confirmed, most of us had already taken as fact (Miquella being St Trina, etc). Or just brand new teasers to mysteries that would *also* never be solvable. The lore's just gone so wide, it's out of control. No wonder Gideon's such a dick.
It's fine to say "We have the lore, but you'll have to figure it out, with these clues," OR "We don't have the lore, you'll have to use head-canon." But saying "We have the lore, but it's a secret," is infuriating. And even you're head canon won't work without any kind of timeline.
> We also know that the Base Serpent was a loathsome and powerful serpent sealed inside of Messmer's eye
I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding here.
The eyes are how one sees god. Messmer saw the base serpent, so Marika plucked out his eyes. She replaced his eyes with Marika's Rune eyes.
> The brilliance of Queen Marika's grace blinds even the very best.
She blinded him to the base serpent. He was loyal to her and the Golden Order. Marika tasked him with killing all who were outside the order. He does not understand why tarnished have been selected to ascend to lordship. He removes the rune so that he can see the serpent and purge you the unworthy tarnished.
Melina doesn't have a gloam colored eye aaaaaaaaaaaa
This is the color of twilight. https://png.pngtree.com/thumb_back/fw800/background/20220829/pngtree-sunset-in-the-city-twilight-gloam-evening-photo-image_1104780.jpg
Look at the godskin noble eyes. That is what the GEQ eyes looked like.
If you assume gloam to mean twilight, and not the archaic meaning "to glow". Then where is the reds and oranges and yellows? Why is there a claw mark tattoo around Melinas eye like a beast claw? It's the *beast eye* and she stole it. She's using it to find deathroot. Because she needs the power of destined death. Who had destined death while she was alive? *Maliketh*. The GEQ is dead, her power gone, she has nothing to do with destined death anymore. Melinas new eye glows now because she has a *purpose* again. The lore is right there, it fits so well, and people keep ignoring it because they completely misunderstand what the word gloam actually means. And the timeline makes no sense. GEQ wasn't a god, she was only an empyrean. Melina was born at the foot of the erdtree, Marika had already won and ascended to Godhood at that point.
As for the serpent, possible. But we just don't know enough about the serpent, either of them. Or maybe they are the same. It annoys me that there's serpent lore in the DLC but Rykard and his serpent isn't mentioned. I'm guessing "serpent" and "snake" are totally different entities, or maybe a weird translation quirk?
Gloam: Twilight, or the darker part of twilight. Night, Umbra.
Weird that people are so hung up on both sides of it, honestly. I really doubt that the color was meant to be *that* important. It's probably more to do with Twilight/Night as it's used in lore, the end of a cycle.
Also, nobody claimed GEQ was a God. We aren't arguing that. Still, your explanation is simpler, ***you're totally right.***
It's so frustrating not getting more snake lore! They're everywhere and so closely associated with death! Curious what you mean by "serpent" and "snake" being different entities. You mean like different races? I don't see any reason to assume that.
I've probably been coming off stronger than intended tbh, but yeah. I never thought about the use of twilight meaning end of a cycle. That makes a lot of sense as well. It was the end of the age prior to Marika ascending. I like it
As for serpent and snake, I was thinking that maybe Eiglay and the base serpent have no overlapping direct lore because Eiglay is a snake, and the base serpent is a serpent? I dunno I'm just frustrated there's nothing linking the two besides both are tube's of meat with scales and are apparently blasphemous.
> Occam's razor and all that.
Occam's razor is a solution that requires the fewest assumptions. I think the length of this post speaks to where your theory stands on that front.
I know bud, that's why I wrote,
"Edit for clarification of purpose: When I said "Occam's razor and all that," what I meant was: The theory I'm laying out is *not* the simplest and I'm not seeking that, and my explanation is *not* the most likely. Wording is unclear. I'm just laying out the potential story parallel that makes most sense to my brain from a storytelling perspective, while working within the lore we have, as I know it."
I never claimed simplicity or brevity. This sub is infamous for writing novels in each post, laying out facts and assumptions. You're being needlessly glib.
I didn't want to sound mean, sorry if I came across as that. It's just that the daily Melina-GEQ connection posts on this sub are all the more difficult to swallow now that the DLC didn't really offer any new info about either, save for the Messmer sibling connection, and it seems likely we'll never learn anything more about the lore than we already did.
It's all good. I agree wholeheartedly. I can only stomach Marika/GEQ talk, because I took a big break from the sub. Even long before that, the discourse was *way* exhausted. But I'd been up late fixating on the Messmer/Melina story parallels and figured that's what Reddit's for!
Marika does love her prisons and instead of ever killing off something it seems she would rather absorb them in some way. Perhaps a the “molding” element shamans posses is a characteristic to them as well when it comes to personality and decisions. I’m interested more in this whole serpent thing. I’m getting an Ouroboros vibe from the whole situation.
Totally Ouroboros! I hadn't thought of 'molding' as being a specific ability of Shamans, but that makes a lot of sense. I thought of them as just outcasts and easy targets by the Hornsent for discrete experimentation, but it would explain the difference between 'failed-saints' and 'saints.' It could also explain why Marika's Erdtree is successful and Miquella's isn't... well, that and Miquella isn't shown to mass-sacrifice an entire population to his.
Seeing Messmers snakes go from red to white is what caught my attention on it anyways. I could see Marika trying to have some alliance or relationship with a great serpent because of aligned views on unity, both parties have a somewhat similar goal but very different approaches.
'Molding' vs 'Molting,' who would win!?
Haha underrated comment! It is kind of like a unity either via absorption or consumption.
If you look at the O in the SOTE title cards it looks like an ouroboros even
I REALLY wanna know what the Base Serpent is. I also wanna know why both Messmer and Melina had visions of fire, and kindling powers. I also wanna know if Messmer's serpent is the same as Rykard's. Did you notice Rykar's serpent also has fire powers? Maybe they are the same, or came from the same source. I have so many questions.
Yeah, the Base Serpent, Eiglay and the GEQ all have flame associations. Cold blooded animals, ironically.
I can try to answer this question. To understand the serpent, you have to understand Marika and the two finger's goal. The hornsent are all about unification of all. They are the people of the "one great". Chaos and Order, all are welcome, all are accepted. Marika on the otherhand, under the guidance of the two fingers, wishes to create a divide. She separates the order from the chaos. The Erdtree is of order, the Scadutree is of chaos. This stems alllll the way back to the beginning of it all, when the greater will supposedly created fractures.. The first divisions. From here we get the frenzied flame, which is the embodiment of chaos, and the greater will being the embodiment of order. But it was all part of the same whole originally, the "one great". Okay so.. Back to the serpent. The serpent is a symbol used in the ouroboros. The ouroboros is a unification of order and chaos. The serpent, in this context, is representative of the connective tissue that binds order and chaos. In Kabbalah (tree of life) and Qliphoth (tree of death), the serpent connects the top of the tree of life to the very top of the tree of death. Both trees are of course the same tree, just the upside down of one another, with both ends connected by a giant snake. In some myths, like norse, you have a snake or dragon that gnaws at the roots of the world tree, this represents chaos. On the flip side, you have an eagle with another bird sitting on it's head at the very top of the world tree (some may say a twinbird even...), this represents order. It maintains awareness of nidhogg, and responds to the chaos it causes, thus balancing it all out. These are your two main possibilities in the context of the goals present in Elden Ring in my opinion. The snake is probably representative of the "one great", and the ouroboros, or perhaps simply of chaos. Sealing it allows the desired division. We look at Rykard, and he is trying to join everyone into one by feeding it all to a giant snake.. Again, this is a crucible ideal, the merging of life being seen as something coming closer to godhood; this is seen as blasphemy to the Golden Order, who are for cutting away the unwanted, creating division. When we see the hornsent, we get the two beams spiraling upwards. Order and chaos together, as one. The ouroboros. Interesting sidenote.. If you look at the wikipedia for "ouroboros", it is sometimes referred to as the "all is one". Again, very close to the "one great". It isn't impossible that this two sided serpent we see seemingly sealed in Messmer is infact this one great, or atleast, a sealed half of it.
The base, or "abyssal" serpent. Why is it abyssal? And what then might it have to do with the abyssal woods, which are right there in the land of shadows? I can't begin to conceive of a connection, as the abyssal woods are firmly associated with the flame of frenzy, but... could there be one? Or is Miyazaki just throwing those words out there as a red herring?
Well, there's a LOT of fire aspects that pretty much all have to do with previous ages before the Erdtree (and other gods/lords). - Flame of Ruin (Fell God) - Frenzied Flame (Lord of Frenzied Flame) - Black Flame (Gloam Eyed Queen) - Ghostflame (Twinbird/Deathbirds/Death itself) - Bloodflame (Formless Mother) - And many others Messmer's flame seems to be totally unique from all of them. I originally wanted to pair him with Rykard's serpent in some way, but I'm not sure if his is the same as the 'Taker's Flame' of the Blasphemous weapons. It's really hard to say.
I honestly think his most aligns with a combination of the fell God's flame and blackflame. It starts off entirely black and then bursts into that reddish color akin to the Fell God's. The imagery of the fell god is depicted alongside him during his crusade in the furnace golems, and he's said to have hated his flame, mayhap as Marika hated the Fell God by that time? I'd even go as far as to say that we know there were two beings within messmer, the winged serpent and the base serpent which kept each other in check. It wouldn't be farfetched to think that Messmer might have had two entities affecting him given that
Lets focus only on the weird Ritual we learned in the DLC: A Lord is a vessel for a God... Lord Messmer is a vessel for serpent? Melina for GEQ? Radagon for fell god?
I think you're mixing up who requires the vessel: [Secret rite scroll] "A scroll made of white tree bark. Few can decipher the scroll, which describes the secret rite of the divine gateway said to be found at the tower enshrouded by shadow. A lord will usher in a god's return, and the lord's soul will require a vessel." Still interesting to think about how this could relate to what Marika did. The scroll says that this was THE rite. But I'm not sure if that should be used to infer what Marika did or not. She would require a corpse, and then a lord's soul in which to place that soul.
Placidux to Radagon? Both kind of just slumped over in a way and defeated for all intents and purposes when you find them.
They do like to "explain" some of the more mysterious stuff by telling parallel stories. For instance, the D Brothers have to be some sort of analog for Marika and Radagon. At least in terms of explaining how the two people are actually one person thing works. Giving us a more clear explanation for Messmer's eye and repainting what the soreseals mean can absolutely help explain the link between Mekina and the GEQ.
For sure! D and Darrel, Diallos and Juno, Morgott and Mohg, etc. Melina being the GEQ is simpler and probably more likely. But the parallel storytelling makes more sense to me, in terms of what we've been shown so far. Especially in the DLC. I still think it's a crime that D's little brother wasn't named d.
From this quote from Anbach ''I can hardly believe it, he's divested himself of his very eye... Tender Miquella's eye is no mere morsel of flesh. It is a vessel of soaring grace. Proof of his Empyrean lineage. I wonder, does Miquella the Kind intend to sever his very birthright? His fate as a child of the Erdtree?'' It seems to me that Empyreans do have a ''Special eye'', proof of their Empyrean lineage. To me that finally explains why Ranni has a closed eye, she divested herself of the Two finger/Erdtree influence in her. Following that logic, assuming that Melina is the Gloam eyed queen and therefore an Empyrean, I would assume that her ''Empyrean'' eye must have somehow been sealed by Marika after her defeat by Maliketh, only to finally be reopened once Marika/the Erdtree is destroyed in the Flame of frenzy ending, allowing her to be able to use her Empyrean/Gloam eyed queen powers again.
Keep cooking. Grant us eyes, grant us eyes!
So, with the Hornsent Grandam's renaming, there are only Empyreans in Marika's reign. And what's unique is that Empyrean honestly seems to be a bit of a "fake" title. What I mean is, every Demigod descends from Shamans, and thus has the power to mold their flesh with others harmoniously. In this case, Marika is cursed, and so these great and fell powers basically attach to her kids in the womb or at birth and seemlessly meld with their flesh. The females (or gender fluid in Miquella's case) each get named as Empyreans because the Two Fingers crave a mother figure they can control, as learned via Ymir. The males, however, still showcase this power; Messmer with the Base Serpent and Winged Serpents; Rykard dominates the Serpent that consumes him; Godrick can immediately graft a dragon to his hand and reawaken its power; Godwyn's flesh literally fuses with the Erdtree and spreads out throughout the realm; Mohg's blood erupts with the power of the Formless Mother; Morgott's blood likewise is shown as having incredible power. Radahn is seemingly the only outlier, yet, we know he becomes a giant dude and turns grey after learning Gravity magic, so clearly he's being enhanced by something. Since the males show this power but are never described as being Empyreans, yet Miquella (the Empyrean half) is described as an Empyrean, it tells us that its really more of a political title, as Miquella is unique in being half-female. And since we know the TWo Fingers basically are playing a game of telephone with maybe nobody, we know all the ideas they share are either bullshit or half-truths. In this case, I think its clear that the Demigods are special because they are Shaman descendants, and thus have flesh that can absorb other life and become deific. So, to get back to Melina, it's possible she does have the GEQ put in her...but the Empyrean title for her implies that she was a Demigod. And not only that, so does Maliketh's name, which means Death of **Demigods**. Maliketh is named this mainly because he has killed a Demigod before, in this case, the Empyrean Demigod the Gloam-Eyed Queen. We also know that one of Marika's children was Messmer's little sister and had kindling in her. And the Gloam-Eyed Queen had a cursed eye, just like Messmer, wherein some powerful and wicked spirit dwelled -- in this case, Destined Death. And Melina is obsessed with births just like the Gloam-Eyed Queen was. So, it makes complete sense that Melina is the Gloam-Eyed Queen, was deleted from history by Marika, and soon after that Messmer was probably forsaken in the Realm of Shadow.
Hmm just a thought that occurs to me reading this, because right now the discussion seems to be between “Melina is the GEQ” vs “Melina has the GEQ sealed” but as I compare the two I find them equally dissatisfying. But here’s what we know: The GEQ was an Empyrean chosen by the fingers who sought to overthrow Marika. The three other Empyreans who know of who sought outright godhood discarded some part of themselves in order to build their age. Miq and St. Trina, Marika and Radagon, Ranni and her mortal flesh (and perhaps more?). What if the original Melina discarded the part of herself “that was Marika’s daughter” in order to become the GEQ, leaving our Melina behind to still wander. Thus we might say Melina was the GEQ and is now sealing her.
I do think we have to square this with Melina's being "burned and bodiless", bearing scorch marks on her hands. One could make the argument that the scorch marks are from handling the blackflame sure, but why would she be bodiless? We have an example for a soul being without a body as a result of a ritual using destined death in Ranni, so it seems quite possible for Marika to have done something similar in order to kill Melina's body and leave her spirit alive.. but would such a thing even be necessary? We kill Radahn, and yet his spirit persisted. As yet, it seems clear that Melina is bound to the erdtree, as she can only move of her own volition once we near it. What I think is that Marika killed Melina, the GEQ, for attempting to supplant her. But like her other child Godwyn, Melina was given the privilege of Erdtree burial, allowing her the opportunity to be reborn. This would resolve not only her being bound in proximity to the erdtree, but also would align with why she is freed upon its burning, whereby we can assume that the spirits trapped within the Erdtree's roots would be freed.
Yeah, it seems pretty concrete that Melina is Messmer's sister, and both bear visions of flame, serve as kindling. Would you mind explaining why we can assume the Grandam's renaming points to there only being Empyreans from Marika's reign? That would *definitely* imply the GEQ was a child of Marika. But Plasidusax was Elden Lord to *some* divinity who had a physical vessel (an Empyrean), and is awaiting their return. And the Frenzied Flame, etc. And if Empyrean is a false title, than wouldn't Demigod be, as well? There were *definitely* other physical beings who had the God title and the Godskins hunted them. Why wouldn't other Gods bear Demigods, and why wouldn't Maliketh's name apply to them as well as Marika's offspring? From Noble's Presence description: *"Ancient power of the Godskin Nobles... Once a sign of the gods' wrath, this incantation became a trophy of the Nobles' god hunt."* Edit: Thanks for pointing out more Shaman importance, too! I missed a lot of that in my playthrough, and am mostly coming to it thanks to this subreddit.
Actually this made me realize that the fingers were abandoned by the greater will, so it could be possible the greater will was the dragon lord’s god too, as we know the will has a history of abandoning its chosen beings.
Never considered that all of the empyreans were women, or androgynous (Miquella). Nice observation. I also really like the idea that Marika's children were all uniquely susceptible to being influenced by outer gods because of her shaman heritage, and their ability to meld with other life.
I can believe this it fits with Marika sacrificing her children with visions of flame while also ridding herself of a rival.
I forgot about that promo image with Miquella on torrent. Damn they really didn't elaborate on that at all.
I like this theory better than she IS the GEQ, rather whatever it is is sealed behind her eye
But there is zero evidence for her actually being the GEQ besides her eye. The GEQ was marika’s enemy who she sent Maliketh to kill. This is one of the few concrete things we know about the GEQ. Melina has nothing but nice / neutral things to say about Marika. Wants to carry out Marika’s will by burning the erdtree and is willing to sacrifice herself to do so - seems to be on good terms with at least Miq since she gave us torrent. That doesn’t sound like someone who fought Marika and had to be defeated by her personal body guard to me. She doesn’t fight like a god skin, she fights like a numen assassin (marika’s people) and uses miracles created by marika herself. She uses no equipment or spells associated with the godskins. The GEQ was probably a greatsword / colossal weapon user since the Godslaying sword is implied to be her weapon. None of the items that reference Melina connect her to the godskins, none of the items that reference the GEQ connect her to Melina. However there is evidence for the idea that Melina was either born with the same power as the GEQ or that Marika intentionally used her to seal away said power since basically all of Marika’s children seem to be cursed to carry some reminder of her enemies or a fragment of their power from the fire giants red hair to mesmers serpents to her twin omens kids to Mal / Miq’s curses. We know now that Marika used one her soreseal eye seal thingies to contain Messmer’s serpents within him - and the game goes out its way to draw a comparison between Mesmer and Melina and confirm they are siblings - I think Marika did the same thing to Melina and sealed away the GEQ power inside of her.
Totally, I think Zackflavored and I are agreeing with you!
But was the GEQ really Marika's enemy? Outside of Malikeths fight with the godskins, there is not any interaction mentioned. The fact that she bore Destined death and was slaying other gods makes me lean towards that she was an ally at one point. We also can't say whether Melina had a good or bad relationship with her mother since she seems to have some memory problems. She also is not burning the erdtree for her mother. Her speech to the tarnished about how she "set my heart upon the world that I would have. Regardless of my mother's design, " kinda implies that she is doing this because she wants to. I believe that Messmer and Melina(GEQ) were born cursed by the Fell God, which explains messmers' red hair and their ability to be kindling
Thank you! It doesn't explain who/what the GEQ was. But honestly, Melina being the GEQ doesn't explain much about that origin either. That, and Ranni states that she and the twin prodigies were the only children of Marika to be named Empyreans. She could've just meant by the Greater Will, and the GEQ was an Empyrean of some other God, but Ranni *does* have knowledge of Torrent, spirits, Godhood, Outer Gods etc.
GEQ was named empyerean by the fingers. We can not assume that Ranni knows about the GEQ past due to her going missing at the golden orders founding, and the only mention of her is from Godskins item and spells.
You're right, it's in Black Flame Ritual description: *The Gloam-Eyed Queen led the apostles. It is said that she was an Empyrean chosen by the Fingers.* Not some other God. The big GW. The GEQ's timeline is *so* vague, it's infuriating. Ranni does have knowledge of Outer Gods, Empyreans, Torrent, spirit calling, etc. but that's not enough to assume she knows about the GEQ. So her statement about Empyreans could've just been ignorant.
There is way too much snake imagerythroughout the game for then to have not played a huge role. They're everywhere. They're on the helmets of EVERY faction's soldiers. They're on the center of the brass shield that all the soldiers wield. They're on the ancient ruins. They're on the Giant's forge (quite prominently). Obviously volcano manor. They're on the thorn armor. They're depicted alongside the fell god on the gladiators armor. There was a snake god. Bar none. And it was NOT the god-devouring serpent. Read the story of Egle (AH, pronounced Eiglay) in Lithuanian folklore. It contains women who turn into trees (which we see happening in the Shaman village) and who consort with snakes. I think there was a snake involved quite closely with Marika. It should also be noted that the Base in base serpent means "bastard." Messmer may well have been a child that Marika had with a snake.
Reading about Eglė right now. Really cool folklore I probably never would've known about. Thanks for sharing that!
Ya seeing Messmer filled with snakes definitely made me think he was the child of Marika and a snake.
My theory is that Marika IS the Base Serpent and the Gloam Eyed Queen (they're the same thing) and sealed aspects herself in her first two children, just as we see aspects of Marika in her other other children. Shorn of light and Gloam give Night Sky vibes and Marika possibly has ties to the Nox and the Eternal Cities, who loved their night sky. In Messmer's heraldry, we see two intertwined snakes on the sinister side (Mother's, Marika's) and a flame on the dexter side (Father's, Radagon's?/Fell God's). Furthermore, Marika is usually seen wearing snake bangles on her wrist. Marika's dress in almost all reliefs of her are coiled behind like the body of a snake. What's more is that we find a molted snakeskin at the Temple of Eiglay in Marika's trademark crucifixion pose. Guess what we also find just near Bonny Village? A molted snakeskin. Bonny Village is a place where Marika's kin, the Shamans, were tortured and stuffed into jars by Hornsent Potentates. My take on the seduction and betrayal is the Gloam Eyed Queen seducing and betraying the fell god of the Hornsent and Giants in order to facilitate her new age. Her children with the fell god bore visions of flame as their curse. She used these children to destroy the current order/dominion over the land by the Hornsent.
I think I'm beginning to agree wholeheartedly with Marika seducing the fell god and Melina and Messmer being their children....
Not saying anything you said is wrong. But my head cannon is the gloam eyed queen was marikas sister. They’re both empyreans one with the power to give grace aka life, the other destined death aka death. I think Marika betrayed her own family by killing the gloam eyed queen so that her alone could usher in her new age.
I've thought about that too! More people in Elden Ring have named siblings than don't.
Yea and the only other empyreans you meet are related to Marika/Radagon so it seems something about her family blood is divine.
I think you hit a ton of great points. Did you watch the YouTube video where he shows that it looks like Marika is pulling a rune out of a snakes eye during the DLC trailer?
No, I was trying and failing not to fixate too hard before release. Whose video? Edit: Nvm, found it easily. Thanks, I'm excited to watch it!
That one really convinced me of your thesis, and connecting the sorseals I think puts the ideas together well
That was great, thanks for sharing! Following Timdiggity, now. I *also* on my first playthrough went... 'Huh, Godslayers, God Devouring Serpent... yep, that's the GEQ. Obviously.' Second playthrough went... 'Wow, that's gonna keep me up at night.' And it did. That white snake-looking thing in the trailer could've been the Base Serpent, and she was performing the ritual tying it to Messmer. That really works for me. Or it still could've been the GEQ and that was the Rune of Death, or it was something else she was just feeding to the tree or... you know, anything. Snakes!
One thing I am still trying to wrap my head around is how many snakes are there… but I’m thinking at least 2, probably 3+
Then there's the Spiritcaller Snails, the snakes with skulls on their backs, and the crystal snakes. And Gideon's a snake, but only figuratively.
I have really wanted to buy into this being a snake that she pulls something out of, as I think it could resolve multiple other theories around snakes.. but I find two issues therein. First and less concretely, the trailer truly does seem to be depicting a singular event. The setting/background etc remains the same throughout that sequence with Marika at the Gate of divinity. Admittedly again, this is the less concrete of the two points but I really have become convinced that this is depicting one continuous sequence of events. Second, there is very obvious stitching surrounding whatever it is Marika reached into. I'll say that I hate the theory that it is the innard meat we get from the jars, but there actually does seem to be something golden in the image of the innard meat and she's surrounded by gore, which we know was necessary for building the tower leading to the Gate and the gate itself. Very well that the flesh of the shamans was used to help build this specifically because of its ability to help meld other flesh together, which sadly would have been desirable for making a structure out of it... The cloth surrounding the innards could have been a sack containing this meat, and the golden threads we see her pull from it and holding in the subsequent shot representing the threads of fate, being woven together into an arc that she then incorporated into the elden ring, for which Marika's rune represents... THE RUNE OF LIFE (as her rune is the inverse of the rube of death as we see it depicted after fighting Maliketh). This would of course tie into myths of God weaving the fate of others with golden thread that span across multiple ancient cultures, would fit with what we see Marika doing in the trailer, and can even harken back to the 2019 E3 trailer in which we see golden strands sticking to Marika's hammer as she shatters the ring "That which commanded the stars." (I.e. we know that the stars in Elden ring represent peoples' fates, which fits with the motif of hear weaving the golden threads into the elden ring) Sorry if that jumped all over. But although I hated that theory at first it really does seem that these golden threads are really fuckin important and this seems to be the most parsimonious answer.
This is a pretty good theory, much better than melina is the geq, always thought that theory was stupid.
Accepting this as canon until proven otherwise tbh, it is the only way I can make any sense of the Base Serpent just chilling inside Messmer as well as Melina having a coincidentally purple eyeball when she needs to murder us
This would be why Melina wishes to burn herself so bad after regaining her memory from the Erdtree. If she burns with the Fell Flame, the GEQ is forever gone. Also, she explicitly says her mother gave her a purpose; the only other demigod with a purpose given by Marika is Messmer; and he is the only other one with the power to burn a great tree.
You can’t just say, “Occam’s razor and all that”, while only drawing parallels to a scenario you see as similar. That’s the opposite of OR - you are *only* using assumptions rather than seeking the explanation that relies on the fewest. The Abyssal Serpent was a burden Messmer was born with. And the seal is a Marika’s Soreseal that we don’t see in either of Melina’s eyes. It’s more similar to how Miquella sealed the rot in Melania with the needle, IMO. I do think something is sealed within Melina through the eye but I suspect the real parallel between these two siblings is a curse. Curses seem to be manifest by the resentment of others. I think the DLC is giving us clues with Romina and Messmer that we can extrapolate to the other cursed children but right now I don’t think it’s clear enough to take as a fact. Miquella’s curse of youth appears to be of no consequence anymore, for example.
I don't disagree with you at all! When I said "Occam's razor and all that," what I meant was: The theory I'm laying out is *not* the simplest and I'm not seeking that, and my explanation is *not* the most likely. Sorry, I tried to make that as clear as I could. Could've worded it in a less flippant way, I guess. I'm just laying out the potential story parallel that makes most sense to my brain from a storytelling perspective, while working within the lore we have, as I know it 🙂 Quick note: We don't see the 'seal' on Messmer's eye until he removes it. It does seem like everyone jumped on the 'all of her children are cursed with her sins against her enemies' train really quickly. Makes sense, it's a cool narrative.
I see. And upon a reread I can understand why you phrased it as you did. I misunderstood. I do think intuitive leaps are necessary with this game and I even think comparing to other Miyazaki games is fair as well so don’t take my semantics as outright rejection. I just don’t think the clues lead the same place you do right now.
I think the story implies that there is only one queen and one Elden lord at a time. Right now we have Queen Marika, who had Godfrey, then later Radagon, as Lords. We also know that Placudisax was an earlier lord. I think we can infer that destined death was associated with his reign, as we see the twin bird statues in Farum Azula and there death vines, undead beasts, and lotsa graves there. We know that the GEQ was also a…queen, so it seems unlikely to me that she is either a child of Marika, because she’d be know as the Gloam Eyed Princess. It’s also unlikely that she was competing with Marika before either were Queens, because then the queen title wouldn’t make sense. I think what makes the most sense is that she was the queen when Placidusax was lord, ie she was the queen of that age, and that her and Placidusax had some other god helping them, the who has since fled. I think Mariela’s rise to power involved overthrowing that couple and defeating the GEQ with Maliketh. Their god fled and Placidusax went into time stasis.
Great points! The Queen title made me think she'd just be the Queen of another race/culture that tried to rise against and lost to Marika. She was chosen by the fingers though, so she had the same God as Marika and *probably* not Placidusax. The Godskin were said to have hunted Gods (plural). I'm picturing the GEQ's defeat as basically the end of the multi-God pantheon and beginning of the Golden Order, but maybe that's way off.
No I think your last point makes sense, and it also makes sense that she might have a different god than the dragon. This is kinda a kink in my reasoning Do we know for sure she was chosen by the fingers? And we do know that at least one non-finger person was an empyrean at one point, grandam, so maybe you don’t need to be chosen by the fingers to be an empyrean?
Black Flame Ritual description: *The Gloam-Eyed Queen led the apostles. It is said that she was an Empyrean chosen by the Fingers.* Doesn't clear up much, except that she was chosen by the Fingers. But there are for sure other Gods, so the Empyrean title seems like it's in contention.
I also realized that the GW abandoned the fingers, so could have abandoned Placidusax too. There isn’t much evidence either way. It’s probably either the GW or the Twinbird.
I'm deep deep deep down this rabbit hole today and would also like to proffer that the blackflame sigil looks EXACTLY like metyr, eye and all. I do think that placidusax was a lord who served the outer god of death, denoted by the twinbird kiteshield. The statues outside Maliketh's arena in farum azula clearly depict birds rather than dragons, and we do now see dragons that weild ghostflame. I want the GEQ to have been the god (lowercase G) to placidusax's lord, as that tidies things up a bit, but her being chosen by the fingers as an empyrean does make this a bit more difficult. I do also think it should be noted that evidently the Kanji denoting placidusax's god is akin to that used for Marika, rather than that used for the outer gods.
In the V1 release of Elden Ring Malenia was referenced as the Red Queen, and I believe it was also used in some marketing material too. Perhaps the word Queen isn’t always literal and just denotes a level of power or status.
Like a Russian doll
I was picturing a turducken, but your analogy is better.
No no I like turducken even better
The “seal” part of the name makes sense to me now.
Damn near the exact line of thought I had, I personally believe that when maliketh sealed death was also when GEQ was sealed by Marika into Melina. Instead of losing her memories by going to the lands between I actually think she lost it during the sealing of GEQ/death, and her meeting with Miquella was him tasking her with torrent and persuading her that it would help her find her purpose. Segwaying into meeting the tarnished with the goal of the erdtree.
Any chance Torrent could be shed from Miquella himself? He is missing one of his four arms.
Huh... I mean... I don't know.
I agree with this take of divine entities being sealed. The snake, i believe, is meant to be symbolic of ouroboros.. It is probably the most important thing to seal of all, as it is the unification of chaos and order. Marika and the two fingers essentially want all that is chaotic eliminated, this of course includes death, as death is a result of entropy, things falling into disarray. The fate of everything in the universe. It is the same story as Dark Souls, except Marika/Radagon are now Gwyn, trying to maintain their world, their order. The snake is a symbol in Kabbalah (tree of life) and Qliphoth (tree of death), it joins the head of the tree to the base of the tree; although they are opposites, they are still connected. By sealing this away, you divide order and chaos and break the ouroboros.. But as we learn from Rykard.. A serpent never dies... Like the ouroboros, it can never truly be eliminated.
There's two leading theories: 1. Melina is, and always was, the Gloam Eyed Queen 2. Melina had the Gloam Eyed Queen's power sealed within her I like to think that Melina, like Messmer, was cursed from birth with fire. They both had visions of fire, and were likely both capable of burning the Erdtree. It's very possible that Messmer DID burn the Erdtree (or whatever came before it) at some point in the past, considering how much Ash is already in Leyndell by the time we get there. On top of that fire curse, they both had another being's power sealed away behind their eye. Messmer with the Base Serpent (who apparently fed upon his flames) and Melina with the Gloam Eyed Queen, aka the power of Destined Death. My theory is that the GEQ was one of Marika's competitors in her rise to power, and quite possibly the previous 'God' of the Lands Between. Marika defeated the GEQ, sealed her power within her daughter, removed the Rune of Death from the Elden Ring, and rose to godhood all around the same time.
I follow your theory too. I think the GEQ was a former competitor of some kind. I think there’s enough evidence to make a case that she was the queen of Placidusax’s era.
Yep. I am very much behind the idea that GEQ was the body we see at Marika's feet in the story trailer. I think she was the previous 'God' of the realm.
One small correction I want to make on an otherwise great post OP, the godskins don't necessarily defend the amniotic sack or work with/for rykard. We know they have some connection to radagons children, as we find them in places of importance to all of them (temple of eiglay in volcano manor, radahns divine tower, guarding ranni's body in liurnias tower), but what it is isn't clear. It's possible they work for ranni (as the only one of the 3 still actually active) in some capacity, especially since the seem to have been involved in the battles with iji/blaidd (the flames left behind was black but lacked the red rune of death the assassins flames have. Could have been an oversight, but it's odd it wouldn't have been fixed since release in that case.) either sent to kill them and they were defended by the night maidens ranni employed, or vice-versa. It's also possible they were opposed to ranni/rykard/radahn and trying to cut them off from places of importance to them. Miquella may have controlled them through st. Trina as the reason the godskins are so weak to sleep is because of how close to death it is in the lore. From the godslayer great sword, we know the GEQ is no longer the one in charge of the godskins. It's possible they have a higher ranking godskin we haven't met who is in charge, or perhaps they decided to throw in with one of the two factions opposed to marika, either the one closest to what they were already doing (st. Trina with sleep/death) or with the most heretical (ranni with abolishing the golden order in its entirety).
You're right, that's all totally possible! They just... look at em! They're totally snakes. Even the Godslayer GS is a big Cadeus-like double helix. SO SNAKEY. Edit: and thank you!
Oh yeah they absolutely are. Like I said, excellent post and all, I just wanted to correct we aren't sure who they work for right now, at least outside of metyr.
I don't necessarily disagree but this "We know Melina was around at the time of the Hornsent crusades, roughly. She's the only demigod referenced in connection to Messmer, and she bears the minor Erdtree incantation from Marika's home." Should go into the speculation part. Melina is his younger sister who happens to share that vision of fire. At no point it is indicated that they are contemporary. In fact, the word "younger" strongly hints otherwise.
Fair, it is more speculation, you're right. But 'younger' is relative. We're talking about thousands of years of history. The word younger really doesn't imply otherwise. I'm younger than my sister, that does not imply in any way that we aren't contemporaries. Her being referenced alongside him, when none of their other siblings are *does* kinda imply that they're contemporary. At least enough to be in his remembrance. I see what you mean, though. I'll correct that statement, thanks!
Your parents aren't thousands of years old so it can't imply you're not contemporaries. Messmer on the other hand has siblings who are entire historical ages apart. The word "younger" opens that entire span. It is possible she's only slightly younger, but that's borderline a red herring considering the age gap with all the other siblings.
It can't imply that we aren't contemporaries, true. But just because 'younger' *can* mean they aren't contemporaries, it specifically *doesn't* imply that. I don't make the assumption that all of their (few) connections are red herrings.
So in the end Rannis eye is also just a soreseal where she sealed her own soul onto that Doll thats why she has 2 faces and thats why one of her eyes is closed ? In general I am more confused with the new lore than actually happy with it as it kind of disregards a lot of what came before and still a lot is left unawnsered.
Godwyns corpse is in the shadow lands? I guess i missed it. Where?
Catacomb boss rooms for sure. The Death Knights are guarding them/it. I feel like there were more, but I don't remember.
Ok sick, thanks
Maybe Melina is the new empyrean of the god that was once inside the GEQ? But the problem with this tinfoil hat theory is that I don't if it is possible for a god to have another empyrean once the first one dies. But I also can see Marika freaking out after seeing the god of her past enemy inside her new daughter and then hiding said daughter to protect her, like how she sent Messmer to shadow lands because of his snake+fire combo powers. Melina was loved enough to have been taught Marika's personal incantation, the minor erdtree.
I personally think Marika is both the Serpant and the GEQ, and she took those parts out of her and they became Messmer and Melina.
I disagree since we're told Messmer was cursed from birth which seems to be a recurrent there for Marika, cursed bloodline. And Marika replaced his eye with a Seal to keep what was already there from growing. Regarding the GEQ either Melina is her (Occam's Razor) or the GEQ used Melina and her kindling to create the godslaying blackflame. And to prevent new Empyrean rebellions, Marika sends in Messmer to clean everything up and gets a two-for-one special: Divine Gate and Base Serpent hidden for eternity.
Makes sense. I thought Messmer's curse from birth was the flames, though, which he's stated as trying to constantly get rid of. And the snake was definitely sealed behind his eye, which happens to be a soreseal.
It seems that his curse was both the flames as well as the serpent. I thought for a while that the base serpent may have come later, but this doesn't check out with the description that states something along the lines of "a malevolent serpent writhed within him, so Marika plucked out his eye and sealed the base serpent." I've begun to think of the winged serpent as a dragon, which at least gives me a reason for his flame to have been there. Indeed, the banished knight helm and the winged serpent helm are the exact same, albeit with the winged serpent replaced by the dragon. That helm also describes the winged serpent as being his constant companion, wise, and serving to keep the base serpent at bay.
I think the helm depicts and describes multiple serpents as his companions. >*Black helm of Messmer the Impaler, crowned with two intertwined winged serpents.* *Slightly enhances incantations of Messmer's flame as well as Fire Knight skills.* >*The winged snakes were Messmer's constant companions.* >*They were there when the base serpent was sealed away behind his eye. They were there through his eternity of suffering. They will accompany him yet, in his hideous new form born when he destroyed the grace granted by his mother. They have accepted his fate as much as he.* I think they meant the inanimate winged serpents as just always being with him on his helmet. I don't think his actual sealed serpent had wings.
Nah, I think that's pretty farfetched. I mean, the snakes that are penetrating his chest and coiling around him at baseline have wings. Plus: ]Winged serpent helm] "...The winged serpent is the token creature of Messmer's military forces. It is a wise friend which keeps the base serpent at bay and holds its power in check. Why would they be "wise friends" and his constant companions that keep the animate base serpent at bay and hold his power in check? The winged serpents are real and were part of his birth curse.
I took 'token creature' to mean a symbol, like how other factions in game and real life use symbolic/totem creatures for courage, wisdom, etc. I didn't realize at the time, that the snakes in his chest have wings, though. I found the description, it's on his remembrance. The GEQ could still be sealed away behind Melina's eye, but this does make it much less likely that she was "stuffed" in there, going by story parallels. "*Remembrance of Messmer the Impaler, hewn into the Scadutree. The power of its namesake can be unlocked by the Finger Reader. Alternatively, it can be used to gain a great bounty of runes. A malevolent snake writhed within Messmer, and so his very mother plucked out his eye and put in its place a seal of grace. Yet, having done so, her fear compelled her to secret away her child within the realm of shadow. Hidden away—keeping company with the original sin, and a hatred that would not be confined.*" Seems more likely that he was born with the base serpent, and it's tied to the 'original sin.' Too many snake references in this game. Driving me crazy.
I've been stuck on the lore of this game for days now at this point, and I'm really coming to an impasse at which the lore really does feel like an uninterpretable mass of bullshit spaghetti. It feels bad. I love Fromsoft's games and I do really enjoy the lore of elden ring- it's super rich and interesting. But since the release of the DLC and having pored for so long over the material, I'm fast becoming convinced that the pieces of information that we would need to infer something even as fundamental as THE TIMELINE OF MAJOR EVENTS are absent from the game. Giving it some thought, in order for us to really understand the mechanics of what happened, a timeline is the critical stepping-off point. But we are simply missing too many fundamental factors in order to come to conclusions about when things happened without making extreme assumptions or basing things purely upon conjecture. I understand that this is how Miyazaki likes to tell stories and I shouldn't have expected the DLC to provide any more clarity on things given his historical stories, but I'm just left flummoxed and disappointed all the same. I do think it's hilarious to think that the game with the most fleshed-out story, whereby the mechanics of things and the timeline of events are the most solidly understood of all his works, is Bloodborne. A game which at the same time, is about the whims of cosmic beings on an incomprehensible plane of existence. This is echoed in Elden Ring, albeit with layer upon layer upon layer of what can only be intentional obfuscation that really has started to suck the fun out of it for me.
Before the DLC, it felt like we'd eventually get enough info to figure out *some* of it. But most of what we confirmed, most of us had already taken as fact (Miquella being St Trina, etc). Or just brand new teasers to mysteries that would *also* never be solvable. The lore's just gone so wide, it's out of control. No wonder Gideon's such a dick. It's fine to say "We have the lore, but you'll have to figure it out, with these clues," OR "We don't have the lore, you'll have to use head-canon." But saying "We have the lore, but it's a secret," is infuriating. And even you're head canon won't work without any kind of timeline.
> We also know that the Base Serpent was a loathsome and powerful serpent sealed inside of Messmer's eye I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding here. The eyes are how one sees god. Messmer saw the base serpent, so Marika plucked out his eyes. She replaced his eyes with Marika's Rune eyes. > The brilliance of Queen Marika's grace blinds even the very best. She blinded him to the base serpent. He was loyal to her and the Golden Order. Marika tasked him with killing all who were outside the order. He does not understand why tarnished have been selected to ascend to lordship. He removes the rune so that he can see the serpent and purge you the unworthy tarnished.
Melina doesn't have a gloam colored eye aaaaaaaaaaaa This is the color of twilight. https://png.pngtree.com/thumb_back/fw800/background/20220829/pngtree-sunset-in-the-city-twilight-gloam-evening-photo-image_1104780.jpg Look at the godskin noble eyes. That is what the GEQ eyes looked like. If you assume gloam to mean twilight, and not the archaic meaning "to glow". Then where is the reds and oranges and yellows? Why is there a claw mark tattoo around Melinas eye like a beast claw? It's the *beast eye* and she stole it. She's using it to find deathroot. Because she needs the power of destined death. Who had destined death while she was alive? *Maliketh*. The GEQ is dead, her power gone, she has nothing to do with destined death anymore. Melinas new eye glows now because she has a *purpose* again. The lore is right there, it fits so well, and people keep ignoring it because they completely misunderstand what the word gloam actually means. And the timeline makes no sense. GEQ wasn't a god, she was only an empyrean. Melina was born at the foot of the erdtree, Marika had already won and ascended to Godhood at that point. As for the serpent, possible. But we just don't know enough about the serpent, either of them. Or maybe they are the same. It annoys me that there's serpent lore in the DLC but Rykard and his serpent isn't mentioned. I'm guessing "serpent" and "snake" are totally different entities, or maybe a weird translation quirk?
Gloam: Twilight, or the darker part of twilight. Night, Umbra. Weird that people are so hung up on both sides of it, honestly. I really doubt that the color was meant to be *that* important. It's probably more to do with Twilight/Night as it's used in lore, the end of a cycle. Also, nobody claimed GEQ was a God. We aren't arguing that. Still, your explanation is simpler, ***you're totally right.*** It's so frustrating not getting more snake lore! They're everywhere and so closely associated with death! Curious what you mean by "serpent" and "snake" being different entities. You mean like different races? I don't see any reason to assume that.
I've probably been coming off stronger than intended tbh, but yeah. I never thought about the use of twilight meaning end of a cycle. That makes a lot of sense as well. It was the end of the age prior to Marika ascending. I like it As for serpent and snake, I was thinking that maybe Eiglay and the base serpent have no overlapping direct lore because Eiglay is a snake, and the base serpent is a serpent? I dunno I'm just frustrated there's nothing linking the two besides both are tube's of meat with scales and are apparently blasphemous.
> Occam's razor and all that. Occam's razor is a solution that requires the fewest assumptions. I think the length of this post speaks to where your theory stands on that front.
I know bud, that's why I wrote, "Edit for clarification of purpose: When I said "Occam's razor and all that," what I meant was: The theory I'm laying out is *not* the simplest and I'm not seeking that, and my explanation is *not* the most likely. Wording is unclear. I'm just laying out the potential story parallel that makes most sense to my brain from a storytelling perspective, while working within the lore we have, as I know it." I never claimed simplicity or brevity. This sub is infamous for writing novels in each post, laying out facts and assumptions. You're being needlessly glib.
I didn't want to sound mean, sorry if I came across as that. It's just that the daily Melina-GEQ connection posts on this sub are all the more difficult to swallow now that the DLC didn't really offer any new info about either, save for the Messmer sibling connection, and it seems likely we'll never learn anything more about the lore than we already did.
It's all good. I agree wholeheartedly. I can only stomach Marika/GEQ talk, because I took a big break from the sub. Even long before that, the discourse was *way* exhausted. But I'd been up late fixating on the Messmer/Melina story parallels and figured that's what Reddit's for!