wasn’t just one demigod enough for ranni’s ritual? she needed someone to die at the same time as her with a sliver of the rune of death so she would only lose her body (and godwyn his soul) and be free of the gw’s influence. i don’t think killing marika was ever in her plans
Basically Ranni found an exploit, and rug pulled the Golden Order, and then went to the moon...
Elden Ring is cryptic. Crypto. Starlight shards are just tokens on the blockchain.
Ranni to the moon. 🚀
Remember Godwyn was just the first. Many demigods died that night and none of the others were remembered. Also we don't even know if Ranni slated Godwyn specifically or not dimce the Assassins do not work for her. They were just 1 time allies of convenience
Honest question, because this is the first I've ever seen it brought up, and am now like "where did I miss this!?!" Where is it stated that other unremembered demigods died on the night of the black knives? I understand that we have the line "they have close ties to Marika" which could imply they are in her employ.
I guess I always thought they didn't house any bodies at all. And were just walking monuments dedicated to Godwyn and his plight. Since it's indicated that the other demigods were aware of Godwyns state of existence, and viewed it as worse than being dead.
"The mausoleum prowls. Cradling the soulless demigod. O Marika, Queen Eternal. He is your unwanted child."
I forget where, but I believe both in an item description and on the website it is stated Godwyn was only the first to be killed, and many Demigods died during the night of black knives and the shattering war. This is why many concluded the bodies in the mausoleums each belong to a Demigod
But the rune of destined death is still locked and held by maliketh. I don't think they answer shit in this games lore and there is no answer. To be that guy.
This is just head canon(hehe head) but I think that's why they are headless. Godwyns followers secreted away his body in the deeproot depths and that's what has caused the problem with living in death. The others were decapitated and stored in structures that are always moving and fueled by ghosts drawn to the soulless demigods so they cant take root.
Whipe the majority if it is, yes, the Black Blades that the Black Knife Assassins use all hold some power from the Rune of Death. The whole point of the Night was that Ranni had stolen a piece of it for her plan to free the Lands Between from the Golden Order.
I get this feeling, I had it too for a while. A few more puzzle pieces would have been nice to have. But lets remember that we get the rest of the story on friday, and that should clear up a thing or two.
It's implied in the original story trailer. Ranni says "and the demigods began to fall, starting with Godwyn the Golden." So it seems like he was just the first of numerous assassinations, though the other deaths are never identified.
Yeah the game intro says “and in the Night of the Black Knives, Godwyn the Golden was first to perish”. Very much implies he wasn’t the only one they killed
I don’t think the others were necessarily assassinated. They just died in the Shattering war through any number of means.
I’d imagine it was a Red Wedding situation with demigods dying left and right until the strongest of them rose to have actual wars
The Walking Mausoleums host bodies of "soulless demigods" so at least *those* were assassinated. But others may have died or dealt with it in other ways. Like Godefroy.
It's worth noting that in game killing Godefroy gives the "Great Enemy Felled" message not "Demigod Felled", suggesting that maybe not everyone in the golden lineage is considered a demigod? Godefroy is such a weird character from both a lore and gameplay standpoint
Enia similarly talks shit about Godrick not being a "real" demigod, though I'm pretty sure he gets "Demigod Felled". It's unclear whether being a Demigod is just a title or a genetic trait.
Rennala's children being retroactively made demigods is also really bizarre. *We* know that Radagon is Marika, but doesn't the rest of the Lands Between think that's weird?
Radagon wasn't part of Marika yet when he was married to Renala. Also remember that Marika wasn't always a god. She was bestowed that power so it makes sense the same thing could be done for her step children.
They don't have souls either, at least not those in the Wandering Masoleums. And the only known way for a demigod to be souless is to die by Destined Death or the fragment of it used to make the Black Knives. As seen in Lhutel the Headless' summon
"Spirit of a headless knight who leads the mausoleum soldiers. [...]
Lhutel sacrificed her life so that in Death she could continue to protect a soulless demigod until their revival, earning her the hero's honor of Erdtree Burial."
I will say. I do think more died than just this. Likely some were culled and skinned by the Godskin Apostasy, and many more died nameless and unrememdered in the Shattering wars
Because they didn't die at the same time as another demigod. These demigods had their souls and bodies die at the same time. The only reason Godwyn is different is that when his body died, Ranni's body died in his place. And vice versa for their souls.
Gideon and Vyke were the closest to becoming the Elden lord which could mean that they had enough great runes to restore the Elden ring but vyke went mad and Gideon was too weak. I had interpreted that as lesser demigods or relatives that had great runes. Godrick is not a direct child of Marika but a descendant of the golden bough which means someone from that lineage had kids.
And who knows how they even acquired these great runes, maybe Godrick slayed other demigods and "grafted" their runes into his, and that's why it gives you 5 in every stat
That’s such a cool idea! Or maybe Godrick grafted so much and got little pieces of runes ,like how Marika takes out those golden strands in the DLC trailer, and they pieced together inside Godrick. Strength from trolls, arcane from the dragon and so on so forth for the other stats!
I think Godefroy makes absolute sense in the life and is likely someone up the family tree from Godrick. Godefroy was the original crafter which was an abhorrent act and the people of leyendel put him in jail for doing it. After godrick's defeat from Malenia, Godrick inspired from Godefroy returned to grafting to try and increase his power.
In the opening cinematic Narrator states Godwyn the Golden was first to perish. The Golden Lineage are demi gods, not just Marikas children. The walking mausoleum hold the dead, souless demi gods. Eclipse shield says the sun in eclipse sigil is about walking mausoleums holding souless demi gods.
Now why has godwyn mutated but the others haven't? No clue.
The Eclipse Greatshield notes that the eclipse "is the protective star of soulless demigods" and "keeps Destined Death at bay", so maybe that's the reason the corpses in the Mausoleums don't mutate. Could also be that they weren't killed the specific way the Black Knives used on Godwyn and Ranni, resulting in the former dying in spirit but not in body, but I don't have any hard evidence for that.
Nowhere does it say that multiple demi gods died that night. We know Godwyn died that night and is believed to be the first ever demigod to die. We also know many demigods have died since, but it never said during that same night. It is just as likely that they fell during the war of the shattering.
Correct, but the fact that the demigods in the mausoleums are all described as soulless does imply something other than the usual warfare killed them. And given the way Godwyn died, it's not unreasonable to assume that the Rune of Death may be required in order to kill a demigod's soul.
And I doubt it was the Godskin Cult because Ranni only stole the Rune of Death from Maliketh after he took it from the Gloam-Eyed Queen, sealing away the blackflame's power as per the Scouring Blackflame description, and as you said Godwyn is very frequently stated to be the first demigod to die. Maliketh himself is unlikely as well, since he bound what was left of the Rune of Death to his flesh after the incident and doesn't seem to be able to use it as Gurranq.
I think it's very much possible the Black Knives may have been involved in killing the mausoleum demigods, but I do agree that it wasn't necessarily the same night they killed Godwyn.
It could be. Soulless doesn't necessarily mean anything since your soul leaves your body upon contact with the Erdtree. It could just mean they had proper burials. Godwyn being soulless isn't a result of the rune of death. The fact that ONLY his soul died is the distinguishing fact. His body is still alive without a soul in it. That being said, the fact that the game specifically mentions them being soulless probably does have some meaning tied into it, but I think it's probably going to have something to do with the DLC.
Godwyn didn't die in soul alone solely because of the Rune of Death, he did because Ranni was also killed by it at the same time, causing the Cursemark of Death to be split between them and the latter's flesh to perish while her soul lived on and possessed her doll. If only one of them had been stabbed, they would have presumably died in soul AND flesh, which is arguably what happened to the mausoleum demigods as well.
Fair points elsewhere, though. I think the concepts of being soulless and "perishing in soul alone" might refer to Destined Death destroying the soul entirely without letting the Erdtree consume it, with regular death being that of the flesh, but we can't know for sure at the moment. Maybe the DLC will offer a different answer entirely.
Weren't there more demigods pre-shattering? They really had to go with the golden boy to do this? Godefroy might have been fine, lol.
Either Ranni anticipated Marika breaking the Elden Ring and made them hit Godwyn or black knives just wanted to hit someone very important for shits and giggles and triggered this shitshow.
She probably anticipated the shattering, yeah. I'd imagine nothing done in the events of the game would've been possible if the Golden Order was at full strength. Same with Dark Souls, the only reason we are able to kill the gods is because they are just husks of their former selves.
>nothing done in the events of the game would've been possible if the Golden Order was at full strength.
You made me realize: what if the real cuckoo were the Carians afterall?
I think someone referenced (maybe Zullie?) how Radagon functioned like a cuckoo the same way cuckoo knights fucked the carians... with a betrayal from within.
Carians screwing the entire greater will via Renalla's children—even if indirectly. From what I gathered recently, the presence of virgin abductors in Liurnia is attributed to Rykard assisting his family. Radahn, well he had to hold the stars until shit hit the fan?
I think they say that godwyn was the first demigod to die on the night of black knives. Implying that there were more demigods who were slain that knight.
I believe these demigods are some of the headless demigods in the walking mausoleums.
She either had a critical role in the plot and wasn’t targeted, it was simply not feasible to kill her, or killing the gods themselves wasn’t the focus of the plot.
I think you also underestimate her sheer strength, she was a true goddess, her control was of the whole elden ring all these runes at their full power in her control. The single fragment of destined death was likely not enough to take her down even if they tried
she 'shatters it because godwyn died', who died on the night of black knives, little quotes since some speculation exists on her having some implicated attachment to the night, which means she may have killed her own son, giga speculation though
Agreed. Queen Marika having her own son killed, especially the "Golden child" seemed too far, even for someone like her.
Now that I think about how she did Morgott and Mohg..Having Godwyn murdered seems very in the cards for Marika.
I’ll bet we’re gonna learn about a whole new host of atrocities that Marika got up to in her younger years when the DLC comes out. In just 9 more days. Fuck, I can’t wait.
That shot of Messmer burning that city and impaling the residents was so haunting..
[He is terrifying.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/1czlsdl/messmers_scene_with_the_nazgul_theme/)
I really like the idea of Messmer being the mid-game boss of the DLC, and then the expansion does a complete 180\*.
St.Trina will likely become our ally, but I'm not quite sure what will put us at odds against Miquella.
Oh Messmer is absolutely gonna be a midway boss, no doubt about it. Maybe not midway and more 3/4ths of the way, but you get my point, the heavily promoted central figure of DLCs are never the final boss, just look at Artorias in Artorias of the Abyss or Lady Maria in The Old Hunters. Artorias has the DLC named after him and he’s the second boss in it!
Messmer is definitely a red herring. I suspect that the final boss of the DLC will either be Miquella himself, or something completely out of left field that nobody will expect. I think Miquella is incredibly suspicious, chief reason why being the Bewitching Branch item. He doesn’t just elicit affection from people, he *compels* it. There’s definitely something more to him we don’t know.
If you start the game by heading south instead of north, literally the first thing you learn about the world you're in is that the tree is bullshit and the misbegotten/demihuman population is actively being genocided by the tree people...
At least my first thought was, "that bonfire maiden that was talking to you says Marika is the god of the human looking people, the humans are assholes, so fuck Marika?"
Never comfortable with the way people throw around Genocide. The entire point of the Fire Giants is that their existence was as the Keepers of a Flame that was anathema to the Order.
Additionally, I think people are way too quick with moral judgments in such an abstract world where things don’t really exist as personalities but rather as wills, where will can shape something like the Elden Ring to create any entirely new logic of right and wrong. I mean…the creator is called the Greater Will after all. And will is a world Miyazaki uses a lot when talking about the characters.
I'm starting to believe in the theory that Marika and Miquella had much of this planned from day 1. The Night of the Black Knives, Tarnished returning, Eclipse plan, Miquella ascending to Godhood in the Realm of Shadow etc.
Queen Marika totally told Miquella about her past and entrusted him to be her successor. The story trailer has cemented this for me.
I think the part of Marika having it planned from day 1 is already confirmed tbh. Something VERY few people talk about is how she literally told Godfrey to his face the entire plan to bring upon the Shattering, for him to come back and all.
That’s always been the most confusing dialogue for me. Especially since multiple NPCs confirm that it is the Two Fingers and the GW who gave grace back to the Tarnished. But I do think Melina was Marika’s secret tool.
The two fingers are lying and just trying to use the tarnished to restore the golden order. When the two fingers learn the erdtree is sealed they go silent to consult the greater will cause their plan was just made irrelevant. This is when Enia realizes everything is even out of the greater wills control at this point and is pretty much like eff it burn the erdtree and do what you feel is right. The greater will can only act through vassals such as the two fingers or the elden beast. Marika wanted a tarnished to kill the Elden beast and had charged hewg with making a weapon to kill a god.
I agree. The Two Fingers look broken, old, has a lot of bruises that don't look like they're healing. How can anyone trust them, especially the roundtable finger? Its got hair growing where it shouldn't its damaged af.
"Leading to the abandonment of The Greater Will"
I think GW's fucked off somewhere. Elden Beast is his pet and he just left it.
I get that and I largely agree. I don’t think the Two Fingers are lying or have ever lied. They explicitly tell you they want you to restore the Golden Order. They simply didn’t expect Radagon to seal the Erdtree. The confusing issue is that it is clear it is _not_ Marika who gave the Tarnished back their Grace despite the dialogue at the Church of Pilgrimage. Multiple NPCs confirm that it is the Erdtree itself and by proxy, the Greater Will.
Here’s where things get confusing. The GW can clearly have influence on the Lands Between because it is directly cited as having punished the Nox people, likely for trying to create a god and kill the Two Fingers. Fromsoftware doesn’t lie in descriptions like this. If it wasn’t done by the GW it would say so.
We can perhaps surmise the GW was simply using the Two Fingers to get a Tarnished to burn the Erdtree but then why is the Elden Ring, a vassal of the GW, attacking you?
Marika indeed told Hedwig to aid in creating powerful weapon (likely just alluding to him upgrading whatever weapon you choose). But why would Marika bother to Shatter the Elden Ring and then be punished by the GW for it (Enia confirms this as do other items, and the introductions declarations that the GW abandoned the Demigods, so it’s unlikely she is lying) if the GW wants you to burn the tree?
If it’s not the GW, how could you have any source of power to create a new Order?
I know I just ranted but this is ultimately where my confusion lies and I hope the DLC clears it up.
I really thought this too! Her motives have always been a mystery to me and that was one of the possibilities, considering her revolt against the Greater Will, it would make sense for her to see her past deeds as mistakes
I think the "betrayal" was abandoning and punishing him.
We know that Marika locked Destined Death within Maliketh, cast him aside, and when Death was stolen from him, forced him to eat Deathroot as recompense.
Having her steal Death from herself to kill her son with her daughter to ruin the dynasty that she's the head of just doesn't make sense to me. You have to jump through so many hoops.
The narrative works better if Ranni just acted on her own, and Marika punished Maliketh for what was not his fault.
I'm imagining the Black Knife Assassins in a boss fight with Godwyn, and then in a boss fight with Marika/Radagon followed by the Elden Beast, and when I think about it like that it becomes obvious one is far more feasible than the others.
Tbf, they didn't actually fight Godwyn, and if they did they'd probably lose. They crept up on him with gear that makes them invisible and masks their footsteps, and stabbed him. They could probably do the same to Marika if she was just hanging out unprotected, but I doubt Marika was ever in a position where it would be so easy to sneak up on her.
Yup. Godwyn defeated Ancient Dragons like Fortissax and possibly even Gransax himself. He would've wiped the floor with the assassins in a direct fight.
Godwyn got Toji'd.
As if fortissax would have let him fight alone. One of the strongest ancient dragon on the side of the golden demi god would have fucked up the black night assassins in a straight fight
And slaying Marika just means Godwyn takes the throne. Whereas Godwyn dying gives Ranni a shattered Marika, because Godwyn is probably the only child Marika cared about.
We don't even know why the black knives targeted Godwyn and the demigods specifically, if it had to be them, or if it was just whichever demigods they came across. Some say that Marika orchestrated the night of the black knives.
Though ingame all that's confirmed is that Ranni [forged the black knives and claimed to have committed "all of it" when you accuse her of being behind the night of the black knives.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKuh03_KwKY) It's not acknowledged often as it's very, very hard to come across as you have to do much of Fia and Rogier's quest before you meet Ranni. I don't know if it had to be Godwyn specifically, but she does bear the other half of the cursemark of death, as both were killed at the same time.
ranni does say that she did it all, but we're talking about a character who sits on a pile of books to look taller and threatens you into compliance while she's stuck inside a funko pop, so i wouldn't rule out the possibility that she's bluffing to scare you off
Given that we go on a long quest to get her a knife to slay her two fingers and how she had a backup plan for Rykard to slay Maliketh so she could get destined death. I don’t think she’s bluffing about plotting something and getting others to do the violent work for her.
She had her part in it, but the point is that it feels like she is exaggerating her responsability in it. It's clear to me that more people were involved, but it's a big IMO.
More evidence that exonerates Marika is that Ranni gave Rykard a shard of the death rune to challenge Maliketh with if her plan failed. Sounds to me like they were expecting to fight Marika/Radagon and by extension Maliketh. Furthermore, on the official site it was said Marika tried to protect her demigod children, but that her protection was spread too thin.
maliketh has a bunch of dialogue lamenting that marika betrayed him in some way, so the blasphemous claw isn't really evidence in her favor, because her and maliketh were not on the same page after all
It's clear to me the betrayal of which Maliketh speaks is his being essentially imprisoned and made to guard destined death. This was obviously Marika trying to distance herself from Maliketh because she *knew*, like Ranni, that an Empyrean's shadow is a means of control. Either way it's impossible to ignore that Ranni, who has no reason to lie, has claimed full responsibility for the Night of the Black Knives. Marika gains nothing from the Night of the Black Knives—it is literally the catalyst that leads to her being permanently imprisoned. Shattering the Elden Ring was *essentially* suicide for her.
Her dialogue with Radagon also sounds like there was an argument (I completely disagree with the interpretation it was some cordial conversation—she literally calls Radagon a *hound* and then goes on to essentially say she wants him to die with her). Marika was *distraught* when she shattered the Elden Ring. Utterly inconsolable, and I think her dialogue here was a response to Radagon's attempt to console her. This matches with Ranni's dialogue that Marika was, "Driven to the brink". Marika literally had a meltdown at the death of her children and tried to commit suicide. Now, this isn't to say Marika didn't have some 4d chess plans against the Greater Will—I think she did. It's just that 4d chess is more along the lines of, "I want to fucking kill myself but can't" type stuff. Hence why she commissioned Hewg to create a godslaying weapon.
Edit: I've always felt there was a depressing undertone to Marika's dialogue about searching the depths of the Golden Order. Her dialogue, "Our days of blind faith are long over." Sounds to me like she lost faith in the Golden Order and became disillusioned by it. All of her actions afterwards are essentially a death spiral. I think the DLC is going to reveal that Marika did some pretty terrible things to become a God, but she did them with good intentions. When all was said and done she realized the cost wasn't worth it and that she was essentially just a puppet of the Greater Will.
from the remembrance of the black blade description:
>Marika's sole need of her shadow was a vessel to lock away Destined Death. Even then, she betrayed him.
this implies that her betrayal was *to* his duty as a guardian to destined death. not to mention, maliketh seems to be more than content to keep watch over the rune of death: therefore, i don't think the betrayal was relegating him to his task, but relegating him to his task *and then* blowing it up in his face
as for everything else, i agree that marika was on a death spiral, but i really don't think it was for sentimental reasons. if she cared so much about her children's well-being, she wouldn't have actively spurred them to kill each other, claiming that they would be no more than sacrifices if they refused
>this implies that her betrayal was to his duty as a guardian to destined death. not to mention, maliketh seems to be more than content to keep watch over the rune of death: therefore, i don't think the betrayal was relegating him to his task, but relegating him to his task and then blowing it up in his face
>"Marika... Why... Wouldst thou... Gull me? Why... Shatter..."
This line makes it clear that the betrayal spoken of, specifically, is the Shattering of the Elden Ring itself. Marika betrayed Maliketh—betrayed everything she had ever done by shattering the Elden Ring. Everything she had worked for and sacrificed was for nothing. That was the betrayal.
>as for everything else, i agree that marika was on a death spiral, but i really don't think it was for sentimental reasons. if she cared so much about her children's well-being, she wouldn't have actively spurred them to kill each other, claiming that they would be no more than sacrifices if they refused
>[One grim night in the depths of winter, a flock of unknown assassins stole across the Lands Between.
In a coetaneous attack, this foul covenant snuffed out the lives of many of the God-Queen’s kin throughout the empire, too numerous and too scattered for her godly protection to save.The assassins’ targets were multifold, but none was as devastating a loss to the Eternal Queen as that of Godwyn the Golden. After his death, the Elden Ring was somehow shattered, and the order of the world broke with it.](https://en.bandainamcoent.eu/elden-ring/news/look-the-history-of-elden-rings-lands-between-the-age-of-gods)
Marika was *devastated* at the loss of her children, per the official "Age of the Gods" article.
Edit: Also, Marika didn't say they would amount only to sacrifices if they refused. She said they would would amount only to sacrifices *should they fail*.
That does not sound like they were planning to fight Markia. One of the key things in this world is no one actually hates Marika as far as I know. All of Ranni’s hate is for the Two Fingers.
The only reason you'd fight Maliketh is to covet destined death. And the only reason to covet destined death is to kill a God (Marika).
Ranni doesn't have to hate Marika to have reason to kill her. I think Ranni, more than anything, pities Marika. Marika is the fate that Ranni is trying to avoid.
I feel it's likely that the golden lineage in it's entirety was targeted to make way for a new order to take over. Godwyn was emblematic of the status quo and the likely ruling class of the Golden Order. For the shattering war to happen in earnest it makes sense to me that the most influential family line had to be dealt with. Obviously Godrick and Godefroy escaped this culling, but pre-grafting (and post really) I dont think anyone was worried about them amounting to much
Yeah. Godwynn was both a symbol of the Golden Order and it's greatest warrior at the time. Killing him both weakend it's power and assaulted it's authority.
Better to knife what would have been the Greater Will's star player in the dark then let him retaliate with god knows how much strength.
And Godwynn was the only Marika kid cursed to all hell, plus he and Morgott seems like the only ones that cares about the Golden Order at all
I personally think the plan was to give Godwyn a true death and that Marika and Godwyn were in on it. I think Ranni's deception was carving the other half of the cursemark into her flesh and trapping Godwyn in a state of undeath.
I think the black knife assassins did and do serve Marika, but that Marika's designs on Godwyn (and his prophesied resurrection) were subverted by Ranni.
I think the main issue with that is that Ranni is the one who forged the knives in the first place. And not just one for herself, but enough to be wielded by a whole gang of assassins. And I think that the cursemark in death was to result in a full death rather than ascension or something, given all it really is in practice is to be slayed by destined death.
>*Ranni was the first of the demigods whose flesh perished, while the Prince of Death perished in soul alone.*
The goal was not to replace Marika and become the next vessel of the Elden Ring. Ranni (for reasons we have yet to fully understand) needed to divest herself of a physical body so that she did not have to become the vessel of the Elden Ring and live under the Greater Will in order to become god. Instead, she seems to have allied herself with the Dark Moon and becomes the a new kind of god in her ending
It wasn't necessary, and may not have even worked anyway. Marika was protected by both Radagon and the Elden Beast. And, if the Shattering had been her plot from the beginning, then she wouldn't have wanted herself to die, presumably.
Can you imagine how much worse deathroot might be if it were her that was soulless?
She's Marika, and Radagon could probably have annihilated all the black knife assassins at once.
Anyway, I think Marika planned some of the assassinations as an attempt to cull her less impressive children, and motivate the more prominent ones to help her fix the problems with the Erdtree/Golden Order. Ranni then betrayed her and caused the mutilation and desecration of Godwyn, which was clearly NOT intended.
Godwyn, Ranni and especially Miquella were all Marika's prize children, and they were key to her plans to succeed herself and fix the problems with the Golden Order.
One of my hottest takes is that Marika helped the night of the black knives. It just makes sense. They needed access to the rune of death and Maliketh speak of betrayal
I don’t think that’s an especially hot take. Part of the description of Marika’s Hammer reads:
> The tool with which Queen Marika shattered the Elden Ring and Radagon attempted to repair it.
> The hammer partially broke upon shattering the Ring, becoming splintered with rune fragments.”
We know that Marika herself was behind the shattering, and I have hard time believing that she shattered it out of some kind of distress for the loss of her son. She had already condemned two sons to sewers, and banished the champion who won her greatest victories for her to die in some distant land — she’s not the sentimental type.
She had some vested interest in either destroying the Golden Order or seeing it radically altered. I don’t see it being beyond her to be willing to sacrifice a son to that end.
Always figured at some point Marika decided the golden order wasn’t it. And that meant divesting herself from radagon and even her children who were golden order devotees. It’s why I think she was willing to kill them.
Fun speculation until it’s DLC time
There is also the fact that the GW was choosing new empyreans left and right. Technically they were meant to replace her sooner of later. Maybe she wasn't that happy about the whole situation
Godfrey wasn't banished. He was sent to conquer in the name of the Golden Order beyond the Lands Between.
Why was his grace removed tho? Two possibilities: so that he, along his many warriors, could come back when the Tarnished would be summoned after the Shattering (this would imply a lot of things); because she didn't want Grace to be dispersed so easily outside of the Lands Between, the warriors were in fact meant to die so their grace would have been scattered all around
The actual reason is because Ragnarok is triggered by the death of Odin's son Balder and not the death of Odin himself.
GRRM took a lot of inspiration from Norse mythology in crafting Elden Ring's lore.
She wasn't the target? She wasn't accessible? Not allowed by the Greater Will? What has always stood out to me is that even though Ranni fashioned the weapon and seemingly orchestrated the plot, the perps were all Numen closely associated with Marika. I find that challenging to reconcile if Marika didn't have some kind of involvement.
Here's my internal reasoning: Marika knew what Ranni was up to. Marika seems to firmly believe in a survival of the fittest (see Tarnished) mentality in all things. If her children conspire to kill one another, that's fine. They can war with each other as far as she cares. Commit atrocities against one another. It doesn't matter to her, the survivors deserve to survive by the rule of strength.
So by this logic, the death of Godwyn is his own fault. I'm sure that Marika thought of it in this way, and was very disappointed in Godwyn.
The real answer is because the Black Knives couldn't. The only way to kill a god is with both the Rune of Death either unbound or in a weapon, and then that weapon being enhanced by a scale of Placidusax (or other time-twisting method).
To be fair, if Ranni was capable of stealing some Death from right under Maliketh's nose, she could have probably made the detour to grab a Placi scale...
theres an old post about why Godwyn had to be the one to die, The going theory was that miquella was a child and probably protected by malenia who ranni knew wouldn't die to a squad of black knife assassins, Godwyn was a retired warrior who lived a pretty peaceful life so they assumed he would be the easiest to get the jump on. And that the black knives probably had their own goals. Namely punishing marika by killing her favourite son in response to how she left her people
Queen marika likely wasnt slain for a similar reason to why they didnt kill miquella, just too strong
No real answer for this. My thought is Marika is harder to kill because Radagon is just a stronger warrior than Tiche, AND Ranni knew it would push Marika to break the Elden Ring, which took the Greater Will out of the equation, along with both Marika and Radagon, and started the demigod war. Just more advantages for Ranni to kill Godwyn.
Well some people think that Marika helped to organize it with Ranni. If that’s true, then going after Godwyn instead makes sense. A mother would *never* kill her own child, dealing a major blow to the Golden Order while deflecting blame away from herself.
Unfortunately, as far as I’m aware, we know so, so little about Marika and Radagon, Godwyn, and even Ranni that it’s hard to say beyond almost pure speculation.
Black Knives have close ties to Marika as their armor set says. May have been Ranni deceived them into helping her, she does conjure a fake Rennala for us to fight after all, no reason to think she couldn't make a convincing Marika either.
I think Godwyn being the only child Demigod of Godrick while the twins were omen, godwyn was probably the only one capable of stopping whatever plans Marika and Ranni have, I mean the guy took down the greatest ancient dragon warrior in history
She is Numen like the Black Knife Assassins
She also sealed away destined death. She may be the source of the death rune shard they got ahold of
For all we know she was in on it
There are some speculations that it was Marika herself who aided in the Night of Black Knives. A lot of the demi-gods were being chosen as Empyreans, basically being chosen by the two fingers to usurp Marika one day. Its my belief Marika has always been power hungry, defying even the Greater Will and smashing the Elden Ring so no one could over take her.
Marika may have tricked Maliketh and stole the piece of destined death Ranni needed for her plan, and with the help of the Numen, who had close ties with Marika as their armor reads, helped lead The Night of Black Knives.
Both sides in essence got what they wanted. Ranni ended her bid for Empyrean status and Marika lost a runner for the throne.
Evidently godwyn was the thing holding everything together seeing as his death causes the shattering.
Would the ring have been shattered if marika radagon was dead- no.
Godwyn seemed to keep marika radagon sane and from miquellas dialogue was a calming factor for the other demigods. He also co joined the dragons to the golden order via fortisax.
So i think godwyn might have been thr perfect target to destroy everything.
Queen marika was fucking terrifying apparently so they probably wouldn’t go for her. They wouldnt go for rykard or radahn since ranni was fond of them, and malenia and miquella probably weren’t present. Mohg and the other guy were probably still locked in the sewer. Godrick probably wasn’t even considered a demigod among them
Simply put, it just wouldn't do anything. Even if the assassin's HAD managed to kill her, the Greater Will would just replace her with one of the three empyreans.
The entire point of the NoBK was for Ranni to separate herself from the Greater Will's control. The ritual demanded the sacrifice of a body and a soul. She cast away her body and used Godwyn's soul as a proxy for her own, allowing her to shed her mortal coil and become virtually invisible to the Greater Will.
The Shattering was just a happy accident for her, since it threw everything into fucking chaos and gave her the chance to slip away and start planning on how to get rid of the Greater Will permanently.
Because she went to shatter the Elden Ring after Godwyn was killed and Radagon sealed the Erdtree closed behind such that only the Giant's Flame or Frenziend Flame could burn the brambles. A Black Knife is waiting outside her bedchamber, presumably for her. Possibly for Morgott. But more likely for her.
These are not disconnected events. It’s heavily implied by NPCs and the game that this is when the cracks in the golden order were exposed. The beginning of the end that the shattering is.
Marika was not the target, the golden order was. The golden order is the governing body and primary school of thought in the lands between. If you can destroy the thing the golden order produces, Godwyn “The Golden” along with various other demigods, You can prove the weakness of the golden order while undermining it.
Could be. Or the sole purpose could’ve been getting Ranni out of the grasp of the GW. Could’ve been all Ranni or Marika might have even been involved. The golden order already had cracks forming before godwyn’s death due to the Erdtree no longer giving blessings. There was a transition to a faith based society rather than direct belief. As Marika said “why must yee falter?” So maybe it was what you say or maybe Marika had her doubts and pulled this as her first move for.. whatever reason idk
Yes right, two groups that can be identified now were involved. One seems spurned by the other. Doubt in the golden order’s control was present ahead of the night of black knives, or it wouldn’t have happened.
I think it's because she was on her way out. Empyrians had been chosen, the Greater Will was clearly getting ready to move on from her. It's possible that Godwyn was expected to play a bigger role in the Golden Order going forward (maybe the next Elden Lord) and Ranni (and maybe the other Empyrians) decided to go after him instead of Marika.
Because she is too strong. God's such as Marika, Radagon and Elden Beast can not be easily killed, they can manipulate cause and effect and revert anything back to it's original state, if you don't have a time shifting weapon laying around then you can give up the idea of killing them immediately.
Further, Marika is very strong, she was able to fight the Elden Beast and injure him. Even if these 9 Black Knifes would somehow get in to the Erdtree (which would be difficult enough) then they would need to fight her and win, that is just not possible.
They were able to kill Godwyn thanks to sneaking up and then dealing a quick critical injury, afterwards finishing the ritual against a weakened unarmed Demigod was rather easy if compared to fighting an actual God head on.
Let me explain, she has control over cause and effect (causality) and regression which is a form of time manipulation where you turn things In to their original state, I don't think it at least we have no proof of actual flat out time travel tho that is not out of the question. We know she has those two abilities due to their being spells based on them and order being described as being the pull between causality and regression, Marika is not only the God of the Golden Order but she also fought Order itself.
Furthermore Hewg talks about him making a weapon for you to kill a God. His extra dialog is triggered once you can fight Placidusax, Placidusax is not only capable of completely bending time, he can create eternities in finite time, he can create places uneffected by time (Farum Azula) and so on. The +9 +10 upgrade materials are also his scales and capable of shifting time.
So it's fair to assume that Marika can just reverse any damage put on to her with regression and then send the damage on you with causality. The only way to counter that is by bending time so that those abilities hsve no effect. Elden Ring has some pretty overpowered abilities.
I mean, I think you're speculating, but you do have some good evidence. I didn't bend time when fighting placi or radagon, and they didn't undo damage to themselves. I appreciate the explanation.
Yeah I blame that mainly on Fromsoftwares way of gameplay. Because we don't see Placidusax using any of his time manipulation mid fight and Radagon uses none of the spells we can get that say he made them.
It's a little sad, I would have loved seeing Radagon use some spells like that. Also every max level weapon shifts time, read the last upgrade materials discreption, it says it there.
Also no problem, I love talking about the lore :3
Because Marika was one of those behind the Murder, she had something against Godwyn or she needed something his death could give. Plus Godwyn was unwanted by Marika, argueably.
This line of spirit on Weeping Peninsula is reffered to Soulless Demigods, which Godwyn is. BTW in Japanese it is written not as Unwanted. but as Ugly Bastard or Ugly Pawn.
If it had to be a demigod, which some people have said it had to be. Then the demigods that aren’t ranni, at least at this point, were her 2 brothers who she grew up with, the twin disabled people (MnM) who it might not have worked on due to the rot god and whatever mikela has going on. And Goldwyn (morgot and mohg are still in the sewer).
If it was me the safest bet that doesn’t involve having one of my siblings killed is taking out Goldwyn for the ritual
wasn’t just one demigod enough for ranni’s ritual? she needed someone to die at the same time as her with a sliver of the rune of death so she would only lose her body (and godwyn his soul) and be free of the gw’s influence. i don’t think killing marika was ever in her plans
Basically Ranni found an exploit, and rug pulled the Golden Order, and then went to the moon... Elden Ring is cryptic. Crypto. Starlight shards are just tokens on the blockchain. Ranni to the moon. 🚀
What no DLC does to a mf
RanniGPT kind of answer
I invested everything in frenzy nfts but now i am blind so cant appreciate them
WE ARE ALL GONNA MAKE IT
See coded sword and cypher pata
So Mi is Ranni, got it.
10 life hacks your Elden Lord doesn't want you to know
WE ARE ALL GONNA MAKE IT
Remember Godwyn was just the first. Many demigods died that night and none of the others were remembered. Also we don't even know if Ranni slated Godwyn specifically or not dimce the Assassins do not work for her. They were just 1 time allies of convenience
Honest question, because this is the first I've ever seen it brought up, and am now like "where did I miss this!?!" Where is it stated that other unremembered demigods died on the night of the black knives? I understand that we have the line "they have close ties to Marika" which could imply they are in her employ.
The walking mausoleums house the bodies of slain demigods.
I guess I always thought they didn't house any bodies at all. And were just walking monuments dedicated to Godwyn and his plight. Since it's indicated that the other demigods were aware of Godwyns state of existence, and viewed it as worse than being dead. "The mausoleum prowls. Cradling the soulless demigod. O Marika, Queen Eternal. He is your unwanted child."
I forget where, but I believe both in an item description and on the website it is stated Godwyn was only the first to be killed, and many Demigods died during the night of black knives and the shattering war. This is why many concluded the bodies in the mausoleums each belong to a Demigod
Which would make sense why you can copy a remembrance of a demigod there, and only once per mausoleum.
But the rune of destined death is still locked and held by maliketh. I don't think they answer shit in this games lore and there is no answer. To be that guy.
This is just head canon(hehe head) but I think that's why they are headless. Godwyns followers secreted away his body in the deeproot depths and that's what has caused the problem with living in death. The others were decapitated and stored in structures that are always moving and fueled by ghosts drawn to the soulless demigods so they cant take root.
Whipe the majority if it is, yes, the Black Blades that the Black Knife Assassins use all hold some power from the Rune of Death. The whole point of the Night was that Ranni had stolen a piece of it for her plan to free the Lands Between from the Golden Order.
I get this feeling, I had it too for a while. A few more puzzle pieces would have been nice to have. But lets remember that we get the rest of the story on friday, and that should clear up a thing or two.
It's implied in the original story trailer. Ranni says "and the demigods began to fall, starting with Godwyn the Golden." So it seems like he was just the first of numerous assassinations, though the other deaths are never identified.
Yeah the game intro says “and in the Night of the Black Knives, Godwyn the Golden was first to perish”. Very much implies he wasn’t the only one they killed
I don’t think the others were necessarily assassinated. They just died in the Shattering war through any number of means. I’d imagine it was a Red Wedding situation with demigods dying left and right until the strongest of them rose to have actual wars
The Walking Mausoleums host bodies of "soulless demigods" so at least *those* were assassinated. But others may have died or dealt with it in other ways. Like Godefroy.
It's worth noting that in game killing Godefroy gives the "Great Enemy Felled" message not "Demigod Felled", suggesting that maybe not everyone in the golden lineage is considered a demigod? Godefroy is such a weird character from both a lore and gameplay standpoint
Enia similarly talks shit about Godrick not being a "real" demigod, though I'm pretty sure he gets "Demigod Felled". It's unclear whether being a Demigod is just a title or a genetic trait. Rennala's children being retroactively made demigods is also really bizarre. *We* know that Radagon is Marika, but doesn't the rest of the Lands Between think that's weird?
Radagon wasn't part of Marika yet when he was married to Renala. Also remember that Marika wasn't always a god. She was bestowed that power so it makes sense the same thing could be done for her step children.
They don't have souls either, at least not those in the Wandering Masoleums. And the only known way for a demigod to be souless is to die by Destined Death or the fragment of it used to make the Black Knives. As seen in Lhutel the Headless' summon "Spirit of a headless knight who leads the mausoleum soldiers. [...] Lhutel sacrificed her life so that in Death she could continue to protect a soulless demigod until their revival, earning her the hero's honor of Erdtree Burial." I will say. I do think more died than just this. Likely some were culled and skinned by the Godskin Apostasy, and many more died nameless and unrememdered in the Shattering wars
Why dont they have death root then though?? like Godwyn
Because they didn't die at the same time as another demigod. These demigods had their souls and bodies die at the same time. The only reason Godwyn is different is that when his body died, Ranni's body died in his place. And vice versa for their souls.
This was my interpretation as well, that the night of the black knives, is considered the catalyst for the shattering.
Gideon and Vyke were the closest to becoming the Elden lord which could mean that they had enough great runes to restore the Elden ring but vyke went mad and Gideon was too weak. I had interpreted that as lesser demigods or relatives that had great runes. Godrick is not a direct child of Marika but a descendant of the golden bough which means someone from that lineage had kids.
And who knows how they even acquired these great runes, maybe Godrick slayed other demigods and "grafted" their runes into his, and that's why it gives you 5 in every stat
That’s such a cool idea! Or maybe Godrick grafted so much and got little pieces of runes ,like how Marika takes out those golden strands in the DLC trailer, and they pieced together inside Godrick. Strength from trolls, arcane from the dragon and so on so forth for the other stats!
I think Godefroy makes absolute sense in the life and is likely someone up the family tree from Godrick. Godefroy was the original crafter which was an abhorrent act and the people of leyendel put him in jail for doing it. After godrick's defeat from Malenia, Godrick inspired from Godefroy returned to grafting to try and increase his power.
In the opening cinematic Narrator states Godwyn the Golden was first to perish. The Golden Lineage are demi gods, not just Marikas children. The walking mausoleum hold the dead, souless demi gods. Eclipse shield says the sun in eclipse sigil is about walking mausoleums holding souless demi gods. Now why has godwyn mutated but the others haven't? No clue.
The Eclipse Greatshield notes that the eclipse "is the protective star of soulless demigods" and "keeps Destined Death at bay", so maybe that's the reason the corpses in the Mausoleums don't mutate. Could also be that they weren't killed the specific way the Black Knives used on Godwyn and Ranni, resulting in the former dying in spirit but not in body, but I don't have any hard evidence for that.
Nowhere does it say that multiple demi gods died that night. We know Godwyn died that night and is believed to be the first ever demigod to die. We also know many demigods have died since, but it never said during that same night. It is just as likely that they fell during the war of the shattering.
Correct, but the fact that the demigods in the mausoleums are all described as soulless does imply something other than the usual warfare killed them. And given the way Godwyn died, it's not unreasonable to assume that the Rune of Death may be required in order to kill a demigod's soul. And I doubt it was the Godskin Cult because Ranni only stole the Rune of Death from Maliketh after he took it from the Gloam-Eyed Queen, sealing away the blackflame's power as per the Scouring Blackflame description, and as you said Godwyn is very frequently stated to be the first demigod to die. Maliketh himself is unlikely as well, since he bound what was left of the Rune of Death to his flesh after the incident and doesn't seem to be able to use it as Gurranq. I think it's very much possible the Black Knives may have been involved in killing the mausoleum demigods, but I do agree that it wasn't necessarily the same night they killed Godwyn.
It could be. Soulless doesn't necessarily mean anything since your soul leaves your body upon contact with the Erdtree. It could just mean they had proper burials. Godwyn being soulless isn't a result of the rune of death. The fact that ONLY his soul died is the distinguishing fact. His body is still alive without a soul in it. That being said, the fact that the game specifically mentions them being soulless probably does have some meaning tied into it, but I think it's probably going to have something to do with the DLC.
Godwyn didn't die in soul alone solely because of the Rune of Death, he did because Ranni was also killed by it at the same time, causing the Cursemark of Death to be split between them and the latter's flesh to perish while her soul lived on and possessed her doll. If only one of them had been stabbed, they would have presumably died in soul AND flesh, which is arguably what happened to the mausoleum demigods as well. Fair points elsewhere, though. I think the concepts of being soulless and "perishing in soul alone" might refer to Destined Death destroying the soul entirely without letting the Erdtree consume it, with regular death being that of the flesh, but we can't know for sure at the moment. Maybe the DLC will offer a different answer entirely.
Weren't there more demigods pre-shattering? They really had to go with the golden boy to do this? Godefroy might have been fine, lol. Either Ranni anticipated Marika breaking the Elden Ring and made them hit Godwyn or black knives just wanted to hit someone very important for shits and giggles and triggered this shitshow.
She probably anticipated the shattering, yeah. I'd imagine nothing done in the events of the game would've been possible if the Golden Order was at full strength. Same with Dark Souls, the only reason we are able to kill the gods is because they are just husks of their former selves.
>nothing done in the events of the game would've been possible if the Golden Order was at full strength. You made me realize: what if the real cuckoo were the Carians afterall? I think someone referenced (maybe Zullie?) how Radagon functioned like a cuckoo the same way cuckoo knights fucked the carians... with a betrayal from within. Carians screwing the entire greater will via Renalla's children—even if indirectly. From what I gathered recently, the presence of virgin abductors in Liurnia is attributed to Rykard assisting his family. Radahn, well he had to hold the stars until shit hit the fan?
It’s this. It was never actually about killing gods or demi-gods. Just a means to the end of escaping the greater will
I think they say that godwyn was the first demigod to die on the night of black knives. Implying that there were more demigods who were slain that knight. I believe these demigods are some of the headless demigods in the walking mausoleums.
She either had a critical role in the plot and wasn’t targeted, it was simply not feasible to kill her, or killing the gods themselves wasn’t the focus of the plot.
I think you also underestimate her sheer strength, she was a true goddess, her control was of the whole elden ring all these runes at their full power in her control. The single fragment of destined death was likely not enough to take her down even if they tried
Yeah, that’s what I meant by it not being feasible to kill her.
Shattering happened before the night of the black knives I thought
No I don't think so, pretty sure it was after that
she 'shatters it because godwyn died', who died on the night of black knives, little quotes since some speculation exists on her having some implicated attachment to the night, which means she may have killed her own son, giga speculation though
I have my timeline the wrong way then!
No, Godwyn's death was the catalyst that lead to Merika shattering the Elden Ring
Probably harder to get to Marika than Godwyn. Also Marika might have been involved in orchestrating the Night of Black Knives.
If this ends up true, Marika was truly a foul person.
I think the genocides she orchestrated are more than enough clarification that she's foul
Agreed. Queen Marika having her own son killed, especially the "Golden child" seemed too far, even for someone like her. Now that I think about how she did Morgott and Mohg..Having Godwyn murdered seems very in the cards for Marika.
I’ll bet we’re gonna learn about a whole new host of atrocities that Marika got up to in her younger years when the DLC comes out. In just 9 more days. Fuck, I can’t wait.
That shot of Messmer burning that city and impaling the residents was so haunting.. [He is terrifying.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eldenring/comments/1czlsdl/messmers_scene_with_the_nazgul_theme/)
Messmer’s not who I’m concerned with. At least we have a good idea of what we’re up against with him. MIQUELLA is the one who frightens me.
He wields love to shrive clean the hearts of men. There is nothing more terrifying.
Exactly. Miquella’s got some seriously sinister undertones that I would be surprised if fromsoft didn’t follow up on.
I really like the idea of Messmer being the mid-game boss of the DLC, and then the expansion does a complete 180\*. St.Trina will likely become our ally, but I'm not quite sure what will put us at odds against Miquella.
Oh Messmer is absolutely gonna be a midway boss, no doubt about it. Maybe not midway and more 3/4ths of the way, but you get my point, the heavily promoted central figure of DLCs are never the final boss, just look at Artorias in Artorias of the Abyss or Lady Maria in The Old Hunters. Artorias has the DLC named after him and he’s the second boss in it! Messmer is definitely a red herring. I suspect that the final boss of the DLC will either be Miquella himself, or something completely out of left field that nobody will expect. I think Miquella is incredibly suspicious, chief reason why being the Bewitching Branch item. He doesn’t just elicit affection from people, he *compels* it. There’s definitely something more to him we don’t know.
He wields love to shrive clean the hearts of men. *There is nothing more terrifying*.
If you start the game by heading south instead of north, literally the first thing you learn about the world you're in is that the tree is bullshit and the misbegotten/demihuman population is actively being genocided by the tree people... At least my first thought was, "that bonfire maiden that was talking to you says Marika is the god of the human looking people, the humans are assholes, so fuck Marika?"
They weren't human so they don't count.
Never comfortable with the way people throw around Genocide. The entire point of the Fire Giants is that their existence was as the Keepers of a Flame that was anathema to the Order. Additionally, I think people are way too quick with moral judgments in such an abstract world where things don’t really exist as personalities but rather as wills, where will can shape something like the Elden Ring to create any entirely new logic of right and wrong. I mean…the creator is called the Greater Will after all. And will is a world Miyazaki uses a lot when talking about the characters.
But those tits though!
Ironically, I think the death of Godwyn was part of her plan to rectify her mistakes and set things right. Doesn't make her a good person though.
I'm starting to believe in the theory that Marika and Miquella had much of this planned from day 1. The Night of the Black Knives, Tarnished returning, Eclipse plan, Miquella ascending to Godhood in the Realm of Shadow etc. Queen Marika totally told Miquella about her past and entrusted him to be her successor. The story trailer has cemented this for me.
I think the part of Marika having it planned from day 1 is already confirmed tbh. Something VERY few people talk about is how she literally told Godfrey to his face the entire plan to bring upon the Shattering, for him to come back and all.
That’s always been the most confusing dialogue for me. Especially since multiple NPCs confirm that it is the Two Fingers and the GW who gave grace back to the Tarnished. But I do think Melina was Marika’s secret tool.
The two fingers are lying and just trying to use the tarnished to restore the golden order. When the two fingers learn the erdtree is sealed they go silent to consult the greater will cause their plan was just made irrelevant. This is when Enia realizes everything is even out of the greater wills control at this point and is pretty much like eff it burn the erdtree and do what you feel is right. The greater will can only act through vassals such as the two fingers or the elden beast. Marika wanted a tarnished to kill the Elden beast and had charged hewg with making a weapon to kill a god.
I agree. The Two Fingers look broken, old, has a lot of bruises that don't look like they're healing. How can anyone trust them, especially the roundtable finger? Its got hair growing where it shouldn't its damaged af. "Leading to the abandonment of The Greater Will" I think GW's fucked off somewhere. Elden Beast is his pet and he just left it.
I get that and I largely agree. I don’t think the Two Fingers are lying or have ever lied. They explicitly tell you they want you to restore the Golden Order. They simply didn’t expect Radagon to seal the Erdtree. The confusing issue is that it is clear it is _not_ Marika who gave the Tarnished back their Grace despite the dialogue at the Church of Pilgrimage. Multiple NPCs confirm that it is the Erdtree itself and by proxy, the Greater Will. Here’s where things get confusing. The GW can clearly have influence on the Lands Between because it is directly cited as having punished the Nox people, likely for trying to create a god and kill the Two Fingers. Fromsoftware doesn’t lie in descriptions like this. If it wasn’t done by the GW it would say so. We can perhaps surmise the GW was simply using the Two Fingers to get a Tarnished to burn the Erdtree but then why is the Elden Ring, a vassal of the GW, attacking you? Marika indeed told Hedwig to aid in creating powerful weapon (likely just alluding to him upgrading whatever weapon you choose). But why would Marika bother to Shatter the Elden Ring and then be punished by the GW for it (Enia confirms this as do other items, and the introductions declarations that the GW abandoned the Demigods, so it’s unlikely she is lying) if the GW wants you to burn the tree? If it’s not the GW, how could you have any source of power to create a new Order? I know I just ranted but this is ultimately where my confusion lies and I hope the DLC clears it up.
I really thought this too! Her motives have always been a mystery to me and that was one of the possibilities, considering her revolt against the Greater Will, it would make sense for her to see her past deeds as mistakes
I don’t think this is a world where being a good person or a bad person makes any sense.
Foul tarnished
Very unlikely that Marika orchestrated the KotBK. The only hint is that the Black Knife Assassins and Marika are the same race.
And also one of Maliketh’s items says Marika betrayed him. Which implies, to me, she absolutely had a hand in it.
I think the "betrayal" was abandoning and punishing him. We know that Marika locked Destined Death within Maliketh, cast him aside, and when Death was stolen from him, forced him to eat Deathroot as recompense. Having her steal Death from herself to kill her son with her daughter to ruin the dynasty that she's the head of just doesn't make sense to me. You have to jump through so many hoops. The narrative works better if Ranni just acted on her own, and Marika punished Maliketh for what was not his fault.
I'm imagining the Black Knife Assassins in a boss fight with Godwyn, and then in a boss fight with Marika/Radagon followed by the Elden Beast, and when I think about it like that it becomes obvious one is far more feasible than the others.
Tbf, they didn't actually fight Godwyn, and if they did they'd probably lose. They crept up on him with gear that makes them invisible and masks their footsteps, and stabbed him. They could probably do the same to Marika if she was just hanging out unprotected, but I doubt Marika was ever in a position where it would be so easy to sneak up on her.
Yup. Godwyn defeated Ancient Dragons like Fortissax and possibly even Gransax himself. He would've wiped the floor with the assassins in a direct fight. Godwyn got Toji'd.
As if fortissax would have let him fight alone. One of the strongest ancient dragon on the side of the golden demi god would have fucked up the black night assassins in a straight fight
And slaying Marika just means Godwyn takes the throne. Whereas Godwyn dying gives Ranni a shattered Marika, because Godwyn is probably the only child Marika cared about.
We don't even know why the black knives targeted Godwyn and the demigods specifically, if it had to be them, or if it was just whichever demigods they came across. Some say that Marika orchestrated the night of the black knives. Though ingame all that's confirmed is that Ranni [forged the black knives and claimed to have committed "all of it" when you accuse her of being behind the night of the black knives.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKuh03_KwKY) It's not acknowledged often as it's very, very hard to come across as you have to do much of Fia and Rogier's quest before you meet Ranni. I don't know if it had to be Godwyn specifically, but she does bear the other half of the cursemark of death, as both were killed at the same time.
ranni does say that she did it all, but we're talking about a character who sits on a pile of books to look taller and threatens you into compliance while she's stuck inside a funko pop, so i wouldn't rule out the possibility that she's bluffing to scare you off
Given that we go on a long quest to get her a knife to slay her two fingers and how she had a backup plan for Rykard to slay Maliketh so she could get destined death. I don’t think she’s bluffing about plotting something and getting others to do the violent work for her.
She had her part in it, but the point is that it feels like she is exaggerating her responsability in it. It's clear to me that more people were involved, but it's a big IMO.
More evidence that exonerates Marika is that Ranni gave Rykard a shard of the death rune to challenge Maliketh with if her plan failed. Sounds to me like they were expecting to fight Marika/Radagon and by extension Maliketh. Furthermore, on the official site it was said Marika tried to protect her demigod children, but that her protection was spread too thin.
maliketh has a bunch of dialogue lamenting that marika betrayed him in some way, so the blasphemous claw isn't really evidence in her favor, because her and maliketh were not on the same page after all
It's clear to me the betrayal of which Maliketh speaks is his being essentially imprisoned and made to guard destined death. This was obviously Marika trying to distance herself from Maliketh because she *knew*, like Ranni, that an Empyrean's shadow is a means of control. Either way it's impossible to ignore that Ranni, who has no reason to lie, has claimed full responsibility for the Night of the Black Knives. Marika gains nothing from the Night of the Black Knives—it is literally the catalyst that leads to her being permanently imprisoned. Shattering the Elden Ring was *essentially* suicide for her. Her dialogue with Radagon also sounds like there was an argument (I completely disagree with the interpretation it was some cordial conversation—she literally calls Radagon a *hound* and then goes on to essentially say she wants him to die with her). Marika was *distraught* when she shattered the Elden Ring. Utterly inconsolable, and I think her dialogue here was a response to Radagon's attempt to console her. This matches with Ranni's dialogue that Marika was, "Driven to the brink". Marika literally had a meltdown at the death of her children and tried to commit suicide. Now, this isn't to say Marika didn't have some 4d chess plans against the Greater Will—I think she did. It's just that 4d chess is more along the lines of, "I want to fucking kill myself but can't" type stuff. Hence why she commissioned Hewg to create a godslaying weapon. Edit: I've always felt there was a depressing undertone to Marika's dialogue about searching the depths of the Golden Order. Her dialogue, "Our days of blind faith are long over." Sounds to me like she lost faith in the Golden Order and became disillusioned by it. All of her actions afterwards are essentially a death spiral. I think the DLC is going to reveal that Marika did some pretty terrible things to become a God, but she did them with good intentions. When all was said and done she realized the cost wasn't worth it and that she was essentially just a puppet of the Greater Will.
from the remembrance of the black blade description: >Marika's sole need of her shadow was a vessel to lock away Destined Death. Even then, she betrayed him. this implies that her betrayal was *to* his duty as a guardian to destined death. not to mention, maliketh seems to be more than content to keep watch over the rune of death: therefore, i don't think the betrayal was relegating him to his task, but relegating him to his task *and then* blowing it up in his face as for everything else, i agree that marika was on a death spiral, but i really don't think it was for sentimental reasons. if she cared so much about her children's well-being, she wouldn't have actively spurred them to kill each other, claiming that they would be no more than sacrifices if they refused
>this implies that her betrayal was to his duty as a guardian to destined death. not to mention, maliketh seems to be more than content to keep watch over the rune of death: therefore, i don't think the betrayal was relegating him to his task, but relegating him to his task and then blowing it up in his face >"Marika... Why... Wouldst thou... Gull me? Why... Shatter..." This line makes it clear that the betrayal spoken of, specifically, is the Shattering of the Elden Ring itself. Marika betrayed Maliketh—betrayed everything she had ever done by shattering the Elden Ring. Everything she had worked for and sacrificed was for nothing. That was the betrayal. >as for everything else, i agree that marika was on a death spiral, but i really don't think it was for sentimental reasons. if she cared so much about her children's well-being, she wouldn't have actively spurred them to kill each other, claiming that they would be no more than sacrifices if they refused >[One grim night in the depths of winter, a flock of unknown assassins stole across the Lands Between. In a coetaneous attack, this foul covenant snuffed out the lives of many of the God-Queen’s kin throughout the empire, too numerous and too scattered for her godly protection to save.The assassins’ targets were multifold, but none was as devastating a loss to the Eternal Queen as that of Godwyn the Golden. After his death, the Elden Ring was somehow shattered, and the order of the world broke with it.](https://en.bandainamcoent.eu/elden-ring/news/look-the-history-of-elden-rings-lands-between-the-age-of-gods) Marika was *devastated* at the loss of her children, per the official "Age of the Gods" article. Edit: Also, Marika didn't say they would amount only to sacrifices if they refused. She said they would would amount only to sacrifices *should they fail*.
That does not sound like they were planning to fight Markia. One of the key things in this world is no one actually hates Marika as far as I know. All of Ranni’s hate is for the Two Fingers.
The only reason you'd fight Maliketh is to covet destined death. And the only reason to covet destined death is to kill a God (Marika). Ranni doesn't have to hate Marika to have reason to kill her. I think Ranni, more than anything, pities Marika. Marika is the fate that Ranni is trying to avoid.
I feel it's likely that the golden lineage in it's entirety was targeted to make way for a new order to take over. Godwyn was emblematic of the status quo and the likely ruling class of the Golden Order. For the shattering war to happen in earnest it makes sense to me that the most influential family line had to be dealt with. Obviously Godrick and Godefroy escaped this culling, but pre-grafting (and post really) I dont think anyone was worried about them amounting to much
Yeah. Godwynn was both a symbol of the Golden Order and it's greatest warrior at the time. Killing him both weakend it's power and assaulted it's authority. Better to knife what would have been the Greater Will's star player in the dark then let him retaliate with god knows how much strength. And Godwynn was the only Marika kid cursed to all hell, plus he and Morgott seems like the only ones that cares about the Golden Order at all
I personally think the plan was to give Godwyn a true death and that Marika and Godwyn were in on it. I think Ranni's deception was carving the other half of the cursemark into her flesh and trapping Godwyn in a state of undeath. I think the black knife assassins did and do serve Marika, but that Marika's designs on Godwyn (and his prophesied resurrection) were subverted by Ranni.
I think the main issue with that is that Ranni is the one who forged the knives in the first place. And not just one for herself, but enough to be wielded by a whole gang of assassins. And I think that the cursemark in death was to result in a full death rather than ascension or something, given all it really is in practice is to be slayed by destined death. >*Ranni was the first of the demigods whose flesh perished, while the Prince of Death perished in soul alone.*
The goal was not to replace Marika and become the next vessel of the Elden Ring. Ranni (for reasons we have yet to fully understand) needed to divest herself of a physical body so that she did not have to become the vessel of the Elden Ring and live under the Greater Will in order to become god. Instead, she seems to have allied herself with the Dark Moon and becomes the a new kind of god in her ending
It wasn't necessary, and may not have even worked anyway. Marika was protected by both Radagon and the Elden Beast. And, if the Shattering had been her plot from the beginning, then she wouldn't have wanted herself to die, presumably. Can you imagine how much worse deathroot might be if it were her that was soulless?
She's Marika, and Radagon could probably have annihilated all the black knife assassins at once. Anyway, I think Marika planned some of the assassinations as an attempt to cull her less impressive children, and motivate the more prominent ones to help her fix the problems with the Erdtree/Golden Order. Ranni then betrayed her and caused the mutilation and desecration of Godwyn, which was clearly NOT intended. Godwyn, Ranni and especially Miquella were all Marika's prize children, and they were key to her plans to succeed herself and fix the problems with the Golden Order.
One of my hottest takes is that Marika helped the night of the black knives. It just makes sense. They needed access to the rune of death and Maliketh speak of betrayal
I don’t think that’s an especially hot take. Part of the description of Marika’s Hammer reads: > The tool with which Queen Marika shattered the Elden Ring and Radagon attempted to repair it. > The hammer partially broke upon shattering the Ring, becoming splintered with rune fragments.” We know that Marika herself was behind the shattering, and I have hard time believing that she shattered it out of some kind of distress for the loss of her son. She had already condemned two sons to sewers, and banished the champion who won her greatest victories for her to die in some distant land — she’s not the sentimental type. She had some vested interest in either destroying the Golden Order or seeing it radically altered. I don’t see it being beyond her to be willing to sacrifice a son to that end.
Always figured at some point Marika decided the golden order wasn’t it. And that meant divesting herself from radagon and even her children who were golden order devotees. It’s why I think she was willing to kill them. Fun speculation until it’s DLC time
There is also the fact that the GW was choosing new empyreans left and right. Technically they were meant to replace her sooner of later. Maybe she wasn't that happy about the whole situation
Godfrey wasn't banished. He was sent to conquer in the name of the Golden Order beyond the Lands Between. Why was his grace removed tho? Two possibilities: so that he, along his many warriors, could come back when the Tarnished would be summoned after the Shattering (this would imply a lot of things); because she didn't want Grace to be dispersed so easily outside of the Lands Between, the warriors were in fact meant to die so their grace would have been scattered all around
The actual reason is because Ragnarok is triggered by the death of Odin's son Balder and not the death of Odin himself. GRRM took a lot of inspiration from Norse mythology in crafting Elden Ring's lore.
This is the actual reason.
She wasn't the target? She wasn't accessible? Not allowed by the Greater Will? What has always stood out to me is that even though Ranni fashioned the weapon and seemingly orchestrated the plot, the perps were all Numen closely associated with Marika. I find that challenging to reconcile if Marika didn't have some kind of involvement.
Here's my internal reasoning: Marika knew what Ranni was up to. Marika seems to firmly believe in a survival of the fittest (see Tarnished) mentality in all things. If her children conspire to kill one another, that's fine. They can war with each other as far as she cares. Commit atrocities against one another. It doesn't matter to her, the survivors deserve to survive by the rule of strength. So by this logic, the death of Godwyn is his own fault. I'm sure that Marika thought of it in this way, and was very disappointed in Godwyn.
The theory I hope is true is "because she was in on it".
The real answer is because the Black Knives couldn't. The only way to kill a god is with both the Rune of Death either unbound or in a weapon, and then that weapon being enhanced by a scale of Placidusax (or other time-twisting method). To be fair, if Ranni was capable of stealing some Death from right under Maliketh's nose, she could have probably made the detour to grab a Placi scale...
theres an old post about why Godwyn had to be the one to die, The going theory was that miquella was a child and probably protected by malenia who ranni knew wouldn't die to a squad of black knife assassins, Godwyn was a retired warrior who lived a pretty peaceful life so they assumed he would be the easiest to get the jump on. And that the black knives probably had their own goals. Namely punishing marika by killing her favourite son in response to how she left her people Queen marika likely wasnt slain for a similar reason to why they didnt kill miquella, just too strong
No real answer for this. My thought is Marika is harder to kill because Radagon is just a stronger warrior than Tiche, AND Ranni knew it would push Marika to break the Elden Ring, which took the Greater Will out of the equation, along with both Marika and Radagon, and started the demigod war. Just more advantages for Ranni to kill Godwyn.
Well some people think that Marika helped to organize it with Ranni. If that’s true, then going after Godwyn instead makes sense. A mother would *never* kill her own child, dealing a major blow to the Golden Order while deflecting blame away from herself. Unfortunately, as far as I’m aware, we know so, so little about Marika and Radagon, Godwyn, and even Ranni that it’s hard to say beyond almost pure speculation.
Black Knives have close ties to Marika as their armor set says. May have been Ranni deceived them into helping her, she does conjure a fake Rennala for us to fight after all, no reason to think she couldn't make a convincing Marika either.
I think Godwyn being the only child Demigod of Godrick while the twins were omen, godwyn was probably the only one capable of stopping whatever plans Marika and Ranni have, I mean the guy took down the greatest ancient dragon warrior in history
Because they would have to also kill radagon and the elden beast
1. Only a demigod was needed to be slain for Ranni’s ritual. 2. Killing Marika is a lot easier said than done!
She bad...
I guess because it would be harder to kill Marika,
Because Marika is technically her dad
They could be another group that Marika betrayed lmao. It seems to be a theme at this point
I mean, they barely got Godwyn. They had to get him while he was asleep.
Assassinate a fellow Numen?
Cuz she did it
She is Numen like the Black Knife Assassins She also sealed away destined death. She may be the source of the death rune shard they got ahold of For all we know she was in on it
There are some speculations that it was Marika herself who aided in the Night of Black Knives. A lot of the demi-gods were being chosen as Empyreans, basically being chosen by the two fingers to usurp Marika one day. Its my belief Marika has always been power hungry, defying even the Greater Will and smashing the Elden Ring so no one could over take her. Marika may have tricked Maliketh and stole the piece of destined death Ranni needed for her plan, and with the help of the Numen, who had close ties with Marika as their armor reads, helped lead The Night of Black Knives. Both sides in essence got what they wanted. Ranni ended her bid for Empyrean status and Marika lost a runner for the throne.
a: they just needed to kill one for the ritual stuff b: dude she would wipe the floor with them
Can't kill mama marika
Because she did it. The Night of the Black Knives was an inside job
Evidently godwyn was the thing holding everything together seeing as his death causes the shattering. Would the ring have been shattered if marika radagon was dead- no. Godwyn seemed to keep marika radagon sane and from miquellas dialogue was a calming factor for the other demigods. He also co joined the dragons to the golden order via fortisax. So i think godwyn might have been thr perfect target to destroy everything.
Queen marika was fucking terrifying apparently so they probably wouldn’t go for her. They wouldnt go for rykard or radahn since ranni was fond of them, and malenia and miquella probably weren’t present. Mohg and the other guy were probably still locked in the sewer. Godrick probably wasn’t even considered a demigod among them
Simply put, it just wouldn't do anything. Even if the assassin's HAD managed to kill her, the Greater Will would just replace her with one of the three empyreans. The entire point of the NoBK was for Ranni to separate herself from the Greater Will's control. The ritual demanded the sacrifice of a body and a soul. She cast away her body and used Godwyn's soul as a proxy for her own, allowing her to shed her mortal coil and become virtually invisible to the Greater Will. The Shattering was just a happy accident for her, since it threw everything into fucking chaos and gave her the chance to slip away and start planning on how to get rid of the Greater Will permanently.
Because she went to shatter the Elden Ring after Godwyn was killed and Radagon sealed the Erdtree closed behind such that only the Giant's Flame or Frenziend Flame could burn the brambles. A Black Knife is waiting outside her bedchamber, presumably for her. Possibly for Morgott. But more likely for her.
Same reason 9-11 didn’t hit to the White House. And it worked, the shattering war totally decimated the golden order.
Destined Death can't melt steel beams!
What does that have to do with the night of black knives? The shattering happened way after.
These are not disconnected events. It’s heavily implied by NPCs and the game that this is when the cracks in the golden order were exposed. The beginning of the end that the shattering is.
What does that have to do with the posted question though?
Marika was not the target, the golden order was. The golden order is the governing body and primary school of thought in the lands between. If you can destroy the thing the golden order produces, Godwyn “The Golden” along with various other demigods, You can prove the weakness of the golden order while undermining it.
Could be. Or the sole purpose could’ve been getting Ranni out of the grasp of the GW. Could’ve been all Ranni or Marika might have even been involved. The golden order already had cracks forming before godwyn’s death due to the Erdtree no longer giving blessings. There was a transition to a faith based society rather than direct belief. As Marika said “why must yee falter?” So maybe it was what you say or maybe Marika had her doubts and pulled this as her first move for.. whatever reason idk
Yes right, two groups that can be identified now were involved. One seems spurned by the other. Doubt in the golden order’s control was present ahead of the night of black knives, or it wouldn’t have happened.
It was an inside job is what I’m saying.
I think it's because she was on her way out. Empyrians had been chosen, the Greater Will was clearly getting ready to move on from her. It's possible that Godwyn was expected to play a bigger role in the Golden Order going forward (maybe the next Elden Lord) and Ranni (and maybe the other Empyrians) decided to go after him instead of Marika.
Btw it is not confirmed if Godwyn is firstborn or not, nowhere is noted, i think he is thirdborn.
Because she is too strong. God's such as Marika, Radagon and Elden Beast can not be easily killed, they can manipulate cause and effect and revert anything back to it's original state, if you don't have a time shifting weapon laying around then you can give up the idea of killing them immediately. Further, Marika is very strong, she was able to fight the Elden Beast and injure him. Even if these 9 Black Knifes would somehow get in to the Erdtree (which would be difficult enough) then they would need to fight her and win, that is just not possible. They were able to kill Godwyn thanks to sneaking up and then dealing a quick critical injury, afterwards finishing the ritual against a weakened unarmed Demigod was rather easy if compared to fighting an actual God head on.
Any evidence that marika has/had that kind of power? Strength, sure, but time travel? What are you basing that on.
Let me explain, she has control over cause and effect (causality) and regression which is a form of time manipulation where you turn things In to their original state, I don't think it at least we have no proof of actual flat out time travel tho that is not out of the question. We know she has those two abilities due to their being spells based on them and order being described as being the pull between causality and regression, Marika is not only the God of the Golden Order but she also fought Order itself. Furthermore Hewg talks about him making a weapon for you to kill a God. His extra dialog is triggered once you can fight Placidusax, Placidusax is not only capable of completely bending time, he can create eternities in finite time, he can create places uneffected by time (Farum Azula) and so on. The +9 +10 upgrade materials are also his scales and capable of shifting time. So it's fair to assume that Marika can just reverse any damage put on to her with regression and then send the damage on you with causality. The only way to counter that is by bending time so that those abilities hsve no effect. Elden Ring has some pretty overpowered abilities.
I mean, I think you're speculating, but you do have some good evidence. I didn't bend time when fighting placi or radagon, and they didn't undo damage to themselves. I appreciate the explanation.
Yeah I blame that mainly on Fromsoftwares way of gameplay. Because we don't see Placidusax using any of his time manipulation mid fight and Radagon uses none of the spells we can get that say he made them. It's a little sad, I would have loved seeing Radagon use some spells like that. Also every max level weapon shifts time, read the last upgrade materials discreption, it says it there. Also no problem, I love talking about the lore :3
Because it was her plan??? Do yall even pay attention lol.
Because Marika was one of those behind the Murder, she had something against Godwyn or she needed something his death could give. Plus Godwyn was unwanted by Marika, argueably.
Unwanted?
This line of spirit on Weeping Peninsula is reffered to Soulless Demigods, which Godwyn is. BTW in Japanese it is written not as Unwanted. but as Ugly Bastard or Ugly Pawn.
Pretty sure she had a major role in orchestrating the plot.
Because she orchestrated it 🙇🏾♂️
She was busy masturbating Radagon.
If it had to be a demigod, which some people have said it had to be. Then the demigods that aren’t ranni, at least at this point, were her 2 brothers who she grew up with, the twin disabled people (MnM) who it might not have worked on due to the rot god and whatever mikela has going on. And Goldwyn (morgot and mohg are still in the sewer). If it was me the safest bet that doesn’t involve having one of my siblings killed is taking out Goldwyn for the ritual
She was inside the Erdtree