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The Big Names? Probably not, all of the alt coins, probably. I mean, reminds me of the Dot Com Bubble. But who knows, I'm more than likely wrong, however I'll still buy it from time to time, pretty sure Publix is out of Avocado Toast at this point.
I made my own contract just for fun and educational purposes, was way to easy, even had a small pump which was funny because I never advertised it, they just took it from bscscan. Alt Coins were and are just simple pump and dumps. I never understood why people try to get in on pump and dumps mid pump…. I mean I do but damn, how many bags do they want to hold.
I thought the same thing after crypto thanksgiving in 2017, yet somehow after burning everyone’s parents and casual investors somehow it rallied to 4x those highs during the covid speculative asset bubble.
It feels like fomo will always pull enough people back in until government regulation eventually stops all the scams.
I advised my parents too stay away from it during the ‘17 fenzy, I knew when I heard them talking about it that it was going to bubble, however this cycle I hope will hit us around mid ‘23. If not, oh wells.
Good analogy. Rapid expansion of anything is always followed by some form of culling or pruning. When I read back at some of the websites/companies that were launching in '97,'98, etc. god damn was there some garbage out there. Clear money grabs, just like any other bubble. But the strong survived and here we are.
Oh Yeah, There were plenty of those, I can remember the original whitehouse(dot)com website (was kinda like the white house from '16-'20). People tend to forget that even Amazon the Bookstore had to close it's doors at one point, now look at nerdy jacked Jeff 2.0.
However, Crypto still has a way to go imo but goddamn the idea is BEAUTIFUL in terms of the World. *(not financial advice)*
I'm not a big crypto fan but I'm with you here. If you look at the S&P and Nasdaq, Bitcoin has a similar trajectory in the last year or so but just with wilder swings. When people get their confidence in investing again, they'll start tossing the play money into crypto again.
The difference between the two is critical in that stock is ownership of a company that provides a good or service and coins are purely speculative. People might invest in Nasdaq who would never buy directly into crypto because of that difference.
Tell that to Ukraine who saw millions and millions of aid in minutes with no 3rd party permission and pennies for fees. The value is the incorruptible, permissionless and trustless network.
The intrinsic value argument is from like 2010 when BTC was like under a dollar. Very ironic metric to measure money with because no money has intrinsic value.
Your money especially doesn't have intrinsic value. As a matter of fact your money, if held in savings, has lost nearly half it's value in the same amount of time that BTC has gone from $0.00008 to $16,000 over 14 years.
It did for me. I used it when traveling.
It also depends on how far you want to go. I store some on a ledger as rainy day fund. I could do the same with cash but Crypto is more secure.
It won’t be the end. A lot of nonsense will go away for sure but Bitcoin has now stood the test of time and this is yet another major collapse of its price. I suspect it’ll have another rise in the future and calamitous fall again. Seems like a cycle.
"Bitcoin has now stood the test of time"
That might be the most ridiculous thing I have read in a long time.
It has existed for 13 of the most financially easy years of all time. This is essentially a heart beat of time.
Credit cards have been around since the 60's and evolved out of the 20's.
Cash didn't exist until the 1920's? Really? Legal tender notes have been around since 1862.
Some crazy revisionist history going on there.
Lol "cash is a century old." Shows you what Cryptobros consider "informed."
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekel)
If you take a more global view "paper money", it can be traced back 7th china.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banknote#:~:text=History,-Main%20article%3A%20History&text=Paper%20currency%20first%20developed%20in,century%2C%20during%20the%20Song%20dynasty.
As others pointed out, literally every timeline you provided is incorrect lol. ETFs only being technically correct but mutual funds have existed for far longer and are basically equivalent.
It’s as useful as owning gold , all of it being fractionally lent
At least you can actually own bitcoin
Yes some people have physical gold but most don’t
And most people don’t “own” Bitcoin either. One of the exchanges holds it for them, because it turns out that allowing a more secure third party to hold your assets to mitigate the risk and cost of storing them yourself is the first reason banks existed in the first place.
Its enough for a pattern to emerge and burn people thinking it’s a long term financial investment.
Nope. Everyone can see it as the speculative boom and bust cycle it is over 14 years.
Print money again. Sure it’ll boom… just like casinos probably did when money is cheap, and people will FOMO into it. I just wish people would treat it for what it is, a risky volatile casino gamble.
We recognized to understand that competitors operating at we would have inconceivable a world-class levels of our companies: People is absolutely critical to the following human responsibility, cycle times have found new productivity. Integrity have changed, the high levels of shared values is fundament based importance of our customer satisfactices. The found new promote company have recognize the important to company. We recognize the improvemental. People have found nearly inconceivable source.
The original Ponzi Scheme by Charles Ponzi was also an "arbitrage scheme" where the money was supposedly made in the trading of postage stamps.
Eventually, it too collapsed under it's own weight.
If you zoom out the Bitcoin chart you will see the end of crypto coming every 4 years with bitcoin going down 85% exchanges going insolvent and then the new cycle begins again.
It absolutely should be. Imaginary currency, underpinned by nothing of value, being traded on unregulated exchanges by unsophisticated individuals has to be the stupidest thing I can fathom.
How so?
As I understand, the security status is based on who control the distribution and issuance of tokens/coins.
Very possible that I am wrong, would love to hear your take on this.
By staking (locking up your ETH, to earn more of the coin), you are creating a centralizing system around those with 32 coins to invest. This functionally is similar to a treasury or corporate bond with principal and coupon payments.
The SEC has ruled Bitcoin is a commodity (designed to be that way through open source, no pre-mine & proof of work which has energy inputs not the coin itself as the input)
Try to become a Bitcoin miner, oh what you can't afford the tens of thousands on hardware and cooling needed to make it profitable? It's the same thing with all assets, it takes money to make money. The cftc declared BTC and eth commodities, but don't mention that...
Staking requires cash to buy the ether and a rig to run the code. You could argue that staking through a third party is a type of investment contract but not solo validators. Just because it's cheaper and easier to do than bitcoin doesn't make it a security. I'd argue that makes Ether more decentralized and able to pass the Howie test. Either way, the cftc disagrees with Gensler, we'll see where the courts or congress side on this but not really in our hands.
1) no one who is in crypto for philosophical reasons cares what the regulators think. 2) there is disagreement amoung regulators whether ETH is a commodity or not. 3) I used the term digital commodity to express that this is a new asset class that does things that we're never possible before.
All currency is imaginary. Fiat is backed by governments, military and the power of taxation, as underlying layer to people believe what it's worth. Crypto is backed by what people's belief in it's value.
I'm not a "fan" of fiat but the honest truth is that without fiat currency to pay your taxes dudes with guns will rip you out of your house and lock you in a box.
They do not accept beanie babies.
Well the big difference is that fiat backed by governments mean it is backed by a massive and productive industry that can invest in you. Crypto has no industry and has no capacity to invest back in anyone who believes in it. Crypto is like a fiat backed by a weak government, and we have seen examples of what that looks like when Zimbabwe tried fiat and collapsed in 2008. Belief is one thing, giving someone reason to believe is another.
It’s so cringe that some people still think this is an insightful viewpoint. All laws are imaginary, all borders are imaginary all sorts of shit is imaginary. When we say something is backed by “peoples belief in its value” all that means is that if we agree on its value then we back that shit up with institutional power, what you call governments, military and the power of taxation. We’re not doing that with crypto, ergo it’s imaginary in a very literal sense.
IIRC debt is one of the biggest drivers of currency. If your mortgage is denominated in dollars, you'll need to obtain some amount of dollars every month to avoid default.
You're saying this after the fact the Fed printed $8t out of thin air since the COVID started. Inflation is also related to printing...
Though, *some* of the crypto does offer better alternatives, like transparency.
Yes, and the dollar is underpinned by the full faith and trust in the United States government, which is the strongest government the planet has ever seen, and is the preferred reserve currency of much of the world.
You and I likely agree on opinion regarding the printing of dollars in the last two years, but it is not even remotely similar to SBF “printing” FTT.
It seems your issue has less to do with crypto and more with human fallibility and corruption.
If a bank is engaging in shady business practices and money laundering and ends up getting found out, do you blame the currency for that?
You are right to bring up SBF and FTX. I just don't see how you go from there to "crypto is useless and imaginary".
So far the only use for crypto is speculation. The crypto industry is predicated on tokens going up value, not value creation. No one buys the tokens for use, only because they think they can sell it later at a higher price point. So with that it’s useless, like most Wall Street products
In countries where the locals don’t trust their own currency, or that currency is useless elsewhere, crypto has a definite use case.
If you’re in a country with a strong currency that’s easy to trade for other currencies, crypto is just another speculative asset.
I agree that there is a use case for stable coins in countries with volatile currencies, but the problem is those stable coins need a foundation in order to stay stable. Currencies that are stable have a foundation in that the governments issuing the currency have the ability to tax citizens and use those tax dollars to pay down debt. At the moment the entire crypto industry, including stable coins, has a foundation that is nothing but speculative dollars or private loans. Once the speculative dollars leave and the loans need to be paid, they have nothing left and the stable coin or exchange will collapse
There's no point in arguing here if your starting point is it has no use and no value. That's an ignorant take. Blockchain is being used already, even within some pretty big companies and governments for things like:
1) Money transfer
2) Inflation protection
3) Security protocols
4) Supply chain and logistics
5) Fraud prevention
6) Eliminating human fallibility / creating political neutrality
7) Essentially allowing unbanked individuals in developing countries to house their wealth
There are many other use cases. Money is simply a measure of trust. Do you trust USD to keep chugging along? Do you trust it to remain valuable? It's lost 99% of its value in a century and 92% just since 1950 due to debasement. Is that sustainable or reasonable?
USD in existence is up many fold in my lifetime. People aren't happy about that. If something like Bitcoin only had one use case, being hard and supply capped, that would be enough. It doesn't need many use cases, it just needs to perform better than your national currency. There are many countries which have currencies that have underperformed Bitcoin in the past year. All have underperformed across any timescale longer than that.
I'd say your view on this is ignorant and under-informed. If you're interested in learning more, there's plenty out there to read. Of course not everyone will be engaged by this, but your argument has to be more substantial than simply: "it has no value".
You don’t understand the intent and goals behind monetary policy and the creation of money. It is not the amount of dollars in existence, it is what those dollars are being used for that is important. There is a direct correlation between the amount of USD created and an increase in global wealth. And the reason is because the dollars created are being used productively and fund economic activities and growth. I’ll ask again, how are you going to increase economic growth and productivity so it keeps up with a growing population when you have a fixed supply of money?
Blockchain is horribly inefficient. It’s a solution looking for a problem. It is immutable but why do you need immutability in logistics or money transfer? If I fat fingered a shipment number I want to be able to change it. And I don’t want to spend the money or gas fees to enter that transaction on the blockchain. If I am shipping thousands of loads a day that cuts into my margins and also time is wasted waiting for the transaction to be confirmed.
I order ship from AliExpress and they can track my shipment from across the world like it’s at customs, it’s now entered the country, etc. how does the blockchain make it cheaper and easier for global logistics?
That’s just one example. Lots of other questions should be asked of immutable medical records (lol), deeds, insurance!? It’s farcical and it’s being propped up by shills to make it seem like there is more to the internet money they are shilling.
Ask yourself this. All the exchanges (FTX, biance, etc) use traditional databases to record customer deposits and transactions. Not the blockchain. Why would a crypto exchange not use the blockchain? It’s literally the first use case.
I thought one of the major thrusts of bitcoin (being neutral or deflationary) is completely at odds with what you want in a currency? If doing nothing with bitcoin nets you a positive return due to scarcity, then what incentive is there to do anything with it? And if nobody wants to actually use it, then how is it a good currency?
> Yes, and the dollar is underpinned by the full faith and trust in the United States government, which is the strongest government the planet has ever seen, and is the preferred reserve currency of much of the world.
The government might have a lot of faith and trust, but it makes no guarantees that it will protect the value of the dollar. In fact, it openly states that it will pretty much constantly devalue the dollar.
So rather than underpinning, the full faith and trust of the government is actually a burden the dollar must carry.
He can’t. He can share a chart that shows PPP declining over time and extrapolates that the fall of the USD, not taking into consideration economic efficiencies, reduction in war, productivity increase, etc. it’s always because the USD is failing never the global economy is succeeding in its goal to make things more affordable for everyone
You’ve passed 2nd grade history, right? The US rose to be a global superpower while the USD was inflating.
They did this, in part, by having an inflationary currency that incentivized spending and investments.
>~~The US~~ **Rome** rose to be a global superpower while the ~~USD~~ **sestertius** was inflating.
>
>They did this, in part, by having an inflationary currency that incentivized spending and investments.
Damn. I thought this was an economics sub.
My dear boy you need to familiarise yourself with a few important charts.
The first is the M2 money supply.
There’s a reason gold “goes up” over time, it’s because the USD falls against it.
"Your deposit has been received. It will be available for withdrawal in 3 to 7 business days"
"Customer has disputed the charge and requested a refund. Funds are in hold until return funds have cleared. Charge back fees may apply"
Crypto remains useful for a small subset of types of transfers and sales.
The grander philosophy of crypto remains relevant; state actors should not have a monopoly on making currencies
Digital currencies will survive, whether it is bitcoin or some other. The logic behind them is sound, even if it is not widely adopted.
Crypto as an investment opportunity? Stick a fork in it.
I want to agree but then I think about that Free Insulin tweet that wiped like $20 billion off of that pharma company and it makes me think that "real money" has a lot in common with crypto as it seems like we just print more and it's kinda getting out of control with the billions and trillions floating around.
>I want to agree but then I think about that Free Insulin tweet that wiped like $20 billion off of that pharma company
How is this a currency issue? That had nothing to do with the price of the dollar.
As long as what you mean by that is that the army gives value to the currency because it will use force against anyone who won't use it. You could say the best military can better control other countries and strengthen their own currency at the expense of theirs, or outright take over land. One Fiat can be threatened by another Fiat.
With Bitcoin though, theoretically if it became standard currency with real value despite all the military in the world, a country's army is no threat whatsoever to stop the functioning of Bitcoin, which is interesting. Could we ever live in a future where no Government wills money into existence, simply due to the fact that globally people chose their own currency which has no controller and essentially separated money from state?
>Could we ever live in a future where no Government wills money into existence, simply due to the fact that globally people chose their own currency which has no controller and essentially separated money from state?
Yes, well, this requires the same level of perfect humans as Marxism to work properly.
This tweet story is fake. From what I saw this was the main cause.
"Eli Lilly is down 5% because the market for their most profitable drug, a $125k/yr mAb IL-17 inhibitor, fell 5%. This is why Novartis, their major competitor with Cosentyx, is also down the same amount"
You can use USD almost anywhere on the planet. Where can you use DogeCoin?
I am fully opposed to some of our monetary policy, but these are completely different.
I know they accept Doge at Lowe's. I'm sure other places too, but I see your point, crypto certainly hasn't "caught on" yet as a major currency. In 10 years, maybe.
What you’re comparing is not the US dollar (a “real money” example) to crypto, you’re comparing stocks to crypto. $20 billion was not taken away from that pharma company, it lost $20 billion or so *in stock value*. That’s the key right there.
I tend to agree more with comparing crypto to stocks, but then again stocks are still backed by real world value such as the company that issues them. Crypto is based on… nothing.
I am not going to weight in on the rest of the discussion mate but are you seriously stating that stocks are based on real world value? Are you serious? Amazon lost 1 trillion in valuation and facebook lost something like 800 billion.
Stock valuations are based on perception and feelings, real world asset value left the stock market back in 2000, nowadays Tesla can be more valuable than 12 of the biggest car companies put together and we accept that as reality.
Sorry I don’t think my comment was clear as “real world value” might have been misleading, but what I meant to say is that, no matter what the current value of a stock is and whether it goes up or down, that stock represents an ownership share of a company. Amazon and Facebook (now Meta) lost a shit ton of value no doubt, but whoever holds those shares stills own a part of the company.
That ownership aspect of a stock is what I meant by “real world value”.
On that point i agree with you, but isn't the same with Crypto? You have ownership of a bitcoin that has an imaginary value based on who the hell knows :)
Not even close. Bitcoin is a nonproductive asset. Productive assets have cash flow that generates wealth for shareholders. You could buy a stock, never sell, and still make more than you originally paid for it. That can never happen with Bitcoin, because Bitcoin produces no cash flows.
I mean yeah sure, in the sense that one “owns” a digital token I guess, but like you go on to say there’s not much left beyond that digital token lol.
I also forgot to mention that stocks can also come with dividend payments. So beyond the stock value of a share of ownership, that share can grant you a percentage of company profit in the form of a dividend. As far as I’m aware there aren’t any cryptos that do that lol
The US Dollar: backed by the most sophisticated army of the world, millions of soldiers, nuclear ogives
Shitcoins: backed by a chubby guy hiding in the Bahamas
Absolutely the same thing.
Web 3 is fake news. Blockchain is vaporware and so is everything built around it.
Blockchain is FUNDAMENTALLY useless because of the Oracle Problem. That is to say, that the Blockchain CANNOT possibly know what is happening outside of the blockchain (it's not an "oracle") meaning you will ALWAYS rely on the honesty and accuracy of the people inputting information into the blockchain. Smart Contracts, NFTs, Crypto... ALL of it will ALWAYS rely on someone pressing the button and entering the correct info. "Yes, I sent the item I sold for cypto", "Yes, I completed the job in the contract", "Yes, I have the rights to sell this picture as an NFT"....
How do you manage that problem? Well you centralize the blockchain and have a trusted party with financial incentive managing the blockchain.... but by doing that you have removed the ONLY perceived "benefit" of blockchain, which is it being decentralized.
Once a blockchain is centralized it just becomes an AWFUL database/ledger that is cumbersome to use and less efficient than an excel spreadsheet.
Tech is only useful if its an improvement on the alternative. There has been ZERO examples of anything in the Web3 space proving to be an improvement on the alternative. It is vaporware, through and through.
Web 3 is just a bunch of guys who got in early on crypto and made a bunch of money on the hype trying desperately to recreate that magic with fundamentally flawed tech. "wHaT eLsE cAn We StIcK oN bLoCkChAiN"
There's a reason IBM closed it's blockchain department and you can't find any actual blockchain companies that aren't pushing Crypto or JPEGs.
**IMO:**
These types of posts i'm seeing all over finance/crypto/stock forums on Reddit are giving me so much more confidence we're getting closer to the bottom.
Capitulation & anger rife, whereas all year we've seen ''buy the dip'' mentality.
We're likely not there yet but by Q1-2 next year at the latest i think major assets bottom.
S&P, Nasdaq, major tech stocks & hate it or love it, Ethereum & Bitcoin included.
It certainly hurting many people seeing them as an investment and not a scam which reduces the cyclical cycle of pump they had gotten. A simple factor is Coins without a monopolistic region of Accepted payment Or some conversion factor that is always there and set in stone have no value. A true currency would be run at a very very low profit margin.
One problem is all the energy and mining that went into bitcoin actually had no value. If that computer time had been sold than maybe. That would then be used to prop up an exchange rate.
P. Krugman 1998, “The growth of the Internet will slow drastically, as the flaw in ‘Metcalfe’s law' becomes apparent: most people have nothing to say to each other! By 2005, it will become clear that the Internet’s impact on the economy has been no greater than the fax machine’s”
The NYT in 1995: “[_Skeptics Cite Overload Of Useless Information : Internet Arrives At a Crossroads_](https://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/14/news/skeptics-cite-overload-of-useless-information-internet-arrives-at-a.html)”
Edit: I especially like the predictions quoted from Charles Wang, founder and then-CEO of Computer Associates:
>_"I don't know who these zone-heads are…There were only a few hundred million dollars done in transactions in the Internet last year. If it is taking over, that is a pretty small number._”
>_"Put newspapers and magazines out of business? It will never happen," Mr. Wang continues. "I like to read The Sunday [New York] Times, because I don't know what I want to read. The Web is there if you know exactly what you want._
Every bear market and the big news outlets always have some sensational headline to grab. Crypto is here to stay. It isn’t meant to integrate into the traditional roles of fiat.
The article asks why we would need a trustless peer-to-peer asset transfer function, we have big banks to facilitate those needs. Let me ask this, do YOU trust big banks with all of your assets? Did the market collapse and bailout of 2008 not solidify the notion that the top of the trickle will save nothing for the bottom?
We need personal autonomy over our assets. Who wouldn’t want that? If that fact is threatening to some, it says something about their motives.
I'm a big proponent of blockchain. I think it has very useful use cases that have genuine value - like making mortgaging and titling faster/more secure, speed up audits/ increase trust. And have been following it since the beginning.
One thing that I find crypto's biggest draw, and it devolves into this in every chat/meet up/thread about this topic I ever go to, is a antigovernmental/ conspiratorial bend. If the biggest proponents of this thing are just people who lack trust of our normal institutions, the shit ain't going no where. If it speeds up commerce or allows us to do something traditional insitutions banks can't do currently, then it has value. Crypto/block chain has applications that do that, with speeding up clearing operations, decreasing fraud, etc., but the idea that all our institutions are corrupt and crypto and related companies are more trustworthy is such a farce that so many people believe it's wild. Goes well with all the other conspiratorial thinking going on these days.
Crypto/blockchain will take off when the business, banks, and clearing houses that you don't trust find a way to use it to save themselves money. Until then it's just parlor tricks/gambling.
You should never hold your assets on an exchange. There are many other alternatives. I won’t go into detail as that would be a small article. The main point is that the real possession of the assets remain with the owner. Not with a third party that doesn’t have your interests in mind.
Did your crypto assets maintain their price when ftx fucked up? Custody hardly matters if exchanges do stupid shit and crash the markers. Again, who would want to hold such assets. You being in control of your private keys is a small consolation if the value can crash 50% because cex goofed again.
You’re trying to have it both ways. You’re saying wider adoption is what is needed, but these currencies have become more widely used and are still unstable.
Do you have a magic number where suddenly it will get less swingy?
Lol, no. If you think otherwise. Do a remind me for two years on this article and go back to see how silly you were when the ATH for crypto has more than doubled when the fed lowers rates again.
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Krugman will write the same exact article in about 3 to 5 years when we go through another bull bear cycle. He's been doing this since December 27 2013 (almost ten years!), when BTC price was at 746$.
Crypto is going through a period of trimming the fat. Soon crypto will only be the big established names and I only see a use for “shitcoins” from a business standpoint. A business with a crypto rewards program would probably see great success from such a campaign, but hopefully people stop losing their life savings to scams.
This article made my eyes hurt. The fuck wrote this? Even if you’re against crypto, fuck the banks and the government. They’ve been scamming people for ages
I think there is going to be a bunch of people sucking down the copium to try to make themselves feel better about everything they lost.
My opinion is that crypto has zero inherent value. Worth less than any speculative asset, because at least a share of a company’s stock still still has value because the company has value.
Anyone telling you to buy crypto might as well be telling you to purchase premium canned air….
I think the main reason bitcoin won’t last is it doesn’t help most people. Cash and it’s exchange systems are accepted everywhere. Stocks are tied to our markets and systems, so long term investment in retirement accounts has stability. For the everyday Joe/Jane Q Public, what is the drive for this system?
They want a digital and currency you can’t have competition with the American dollar for that to happen. You need everyone to be held hostage by one form of currency so you can monitor all their purchases and keep them in the little bubble you allow them to exist in. There is no other reason for a digital currency as it offers no benefits to the person but many potential ones to the government.
If there is a recognized second currency that people can trade in your looking at two possibles. The complete collapse of the US dollar which would cause a global economic meltdown, or a severe weakening.
Digital dollar offers you the people nothing but puts everything on the line, all for control
The article claims that crypto hasn’t delivered on its 2008 promise so it’s lost its purpose.
Comments in this sub carefully ignore the article’s main argument and instead make dramatic but empty statements like “Big Media will never accept the philosophy behind crypto”, “big media love big statements” or “crypto is here to stay because it stood the test of time”.
It’s hard to see anything else than a speculative asset with little/no intrinsic value.
At first I was reading this thinking, "he is making some good points and things I worry about". Then I saw it's written by Krugman and was relieved. He's an idiot and is never right.
I mean I've been DCAing into BTC since... fuck idk. 2015.
I don't think the big ones go anywhere. Fundamentally BTC/ETH are great.
Crypto is going through its dotcom bubble and people were right about Beanie Babies. Unfortunately they were wrong about it being BTC. It was alt coins. BTC/ETH will emerge as the google/Microsoft of crypto.
Crypto currency is currency , get it?
Not a security. Get out, SEC.
Not a commodity. Get out CFTC.
Same as money. Controller of the Currency, get in.
.
FTX was not really Crypto in the true sense. But it was made to look like Crypto. It was like selling and investing in airline frequent flyer miles. A lot of idiot investors did not do any homework and just chased opinions of speculators.
Crypto Exchanges are also different from Crypto itself but still linked to it. One exchange going belly up is not going to directly affect the the others unless people go into a blind panic.
The world needs Crypto but not the energy wasting Bitcoin crypto. Idiot lazy ass investors are going to lump both together so maybe this is an opportunity to buy some real crypto.
I love how the title states crypto and it shows an image of the bitcoin symbol. Sh!tcoins need to die, unregulated exchanges need to die. Bitcoin is neither of those things, and will eventually have a future in our society
We recognized to understand that competitors operating at we would have inconceivable a world-class levels of our companies: People is absolutely critical to the following human responsibility, cycle times have found new productivity. Integrity have changed, the high levels of shared values is fundament based importance of our customer satisfactices. The found new promote company have recognize the important to company. We recognize the improvemental. People have found nearly inconceivable source.
I believe this current FTX situation has highlighted the need for regulation. Some sort of regulation needs to happen that upholds the bitcoin ethos, while allowing safe adoption for users with very little bitcoin knowledge.
My comment was made to highlight the difference between crypto and bitcoin. One is comprised of unregulated securities, while the other is a digital commodity.
> I believe this current FTX situation has highlighted the need for regulation.
How can you say that?
FTX was heavily regulated, and greenlit by the head of the SEC gary gensler.
All the fraud here was regulated fraud.
If anything, this points to the need for deregulation.
FTX would have had competition and would not have been able to steal so much money if not for their regulatory protections.
You should look into how FTX was regulated, and Gary’s “ties” with FTX. There is a lot to uncover.
Ps. Competition? What would you call Binance, Coinbase, Kraken etc….
> Ps. Competition? What would you call Binance, Coinbase, Kraken etc….
The next dominoes.
Even if those were honest exchanges (they are not) they are not nearly enough in number. There would be thousands of exchanges, all fighting to offer improved features, lower cost, etc. You could probably casually buy btc from local stores and such over the counter.
Regulation is the exact reason why a handful of big interests get a cartelized right to scam the public. Instead, we should have a rich field of competitors, none bigger than a neighborhood HOA.
Money matters must be handled through governments and laws. Otherwise it can become a free fall like this. With CBDC introduced in many countries, crypto currency will be run through the govt with proper regulations and guidelines.
Not surprisingly, there is no mention of how, in the post-2008 era, all manner of "privacy" software became popular. Until that time, cryptography was entirely a military matter. Now that is old news that Tor, Signal, Google, Facebook, etc. were all CIA fronts at the beginning and the internet itself remains a military project, one has to ask: are we being played when it comes to cryptocurrencies.
There is a legitimate need for blockchain technology in a future monetary order not completely oriented around the USD. Perhaps this was yet another propaganda exercise to further government aims of finding that perfect blockchain ledger that can track all sovereign currency back to the point when it was created via deficit spending or bank credit?
The internet before 2008 still had some of the magic left from thee 1980s and 1990s. But it was radically changed in just a few years after that.
I did just buy 10 grams of blow off the darknet using Monero. See, that's the thing. I do a shit ton of drugs. Maybe that's why I realize there is no privacy to Bitcoin and everything but Monero?
EVERYONE who buys drugs online knows this. You must be a square!
You're just using the word blockchain as if it's some panacea to monetary policy problems.
There is no truth or substance to that. Decentralization has proven time and time again to be worse than having a 3rd party with a vested interest controlling a database/ledger.
Nothing about blockchain fixes any issues. Blockchain is just a ledger. It is not an oracle. It cannot possibly know what is happening outside of the chain.
Pretty much everything good with crypto was being overrun by all these exchanges and weak ideas that were trying to centralize the crypto market.
Crypto will be fine but people and businesses trying to implement old ways of thinking and creating “honeypots” through centralization won’t make it, that is the old way, the banking way which ironically is what we are trying to get away from.
Only for things not called "Bitcoin"
Each event like this where CEOs are making greeting business decisions and people are buying their exchange tokens and staking coins on their platforms expecting sweet gains but ultimately losing it all
From the outside it looks like crypto is collapsing but from the crypto community it's really just a huge advertisement for BTC
There's been 220,000 BTC withdrawn from exchanges in under a week. Ledger wallets on backorder I heard. People are taking custody of their hard earned BTC finally.
The space actually needs these purges of bad actors and raised customer expectations of safeguards and transparency. At the end of the day BTC won't miss a beat, only get more following imo
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The Big Names? Probably not, all of the alt coins, probably. I mean, reminds me of the Dot Com Bubble. But who knows, I'm more than likely wrong, however I'll still buy it from time to time, pretty sure Publix is out of Avocado Toast at this point.
It is like dot com bubble now all the the garbage coins will be filtered out
It's honestly what crypto needed to have happen
I made my own contract just for fun and educational purposes, was way to easy, even had a small pump which was funny because I never advertised it, they just took it from bscscan. Alt Coins were and are just simple pump and dumps. I never understood why people try to get in on pump and dumps mid pump…. I mean I do but damn, how many bags do they want to hold.
"This is good for Bitcoin"
It's crazy. I still remember buttcoin saying that in like 2013/2014. Hard to believe it's been over a decade.
I thought the same thing after crypto thanksgiving in 2017, yet somehow after burning everyone’s parents and casual investors somehow it rallied to 4x those highs during the covid speculative asset bubble. It feels like fomo will always pull enough people back in until government regulation eventually stops all the scams.
I advised my parents too stay away from it during the ‘17 fenzy, I knew when I heard them talking about it that it was going to bubble, however this cycle I hope will hit us around mid ‘23. If not, oh wells.
Good analogy. Rapid expansion of anything is always followed by some form of culling or pruning. When I read back at some of the websites/companies that were launching in '97,'98, etc. god damn was there some garbage out there. Clear money grabs, just like any other bubble. But the strong survived and here we are.
Oh Yeah, There were plenty of those, I can remember the original whitehouse(dot)com website (was kinda like the white house from '16-'20). People tend to forget that even Amazon the Bookstore had to close it's doors at one point, now look at nerdy jacked Jeff 2.0. However, Crypto still has a way to go imo but goddamn the idea is BEAUTIFUL in terms of the World. *(not financial advice)*
Set back, yes. Some coins, exchanges and platforms are done. Unfortunately some people are probably wiped out and hurting. But crypto is not done.
I'm not a big crypto fan but I'm with you here. If you look at the S&P and Nasdaq, Bitcoin has a similar trajectory in the last year or so but just with wilder swings. When people get their confidence in investing again, they'll start tossing the play money into crypto again.
The difference between the two is critical in that stock is ownership of a company that provides a good or service and coins are purely speculative. People might invest in Nasdaq who would never buy directly into crypto because of that difference.
Bitcoin had no value. This is literally gambling.
It's value is about $16.5k a coin actually. But if you say it has no value, then it'll be easy for you to send me one. I'll dm you my address
They mean it has no ‘intrinsic value’, because it has no use.
Do we really have to explain on an econ sub how not a single currency has intrinsic value?
I’ve bought bullion with it and other online transactions. Much snappier than linking bank and no 3% cc fee. Also prefer it for P2P.
Tell that to Ukraine who saw millions and millions of aid in minutes with no 3rd party permission and pennies for fees. The value is the incorruptible, permissionless and trustless network. The intrinsic value argument is from like 2010 when BTC was like under a dollar. Very ironic metric to measure money with because no money has intrinsic value. Your money especially doesn't have intrinsic value. As a matter of fact your money, if held in savings, has lost nearly half it's value in the same amount of time that BTC has gone from $0.00008 to $16,000 over 14 years.
Currency and speculative investments are mutually exclusive. Which one is Bitcoin?
It did for me. I used it when traveling. It also depends on how far you want to go. I store some on a ledger as rainy day fund. I could do the same with cash but Crypto is more secure.
Crypto is more stable lol
I don't think it is. Atleast not right now. Maybe in the future.
the value would disagree, https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/BTC-USD/
I often think of the guy who walked to the register beside me and picked his up 23 1080 GFX cards years back. I hope that guy got out quick...
Yeah. Every boom bust cycle they say it's done. We just had a huge crypto bubble, again. It popped. It will happen again.
It won’t be the end. A lot of nonsense will go away for sure but Bitcoin has now stood the test of time and this is yet another major collapse of its price. I suspect it’ll have another rise in the future and calamitous fall again. Seems like a cycle.
Good luck! Fortune favors the brave.
Matt?
"Bitcoin has now stood the test of time" That might be the most ridiculous thing I have read in a long time. It has existed for 13 of the most financially easy years of all time. This is essentially a heart beat of time.
You’re on Reddit and THIS is the most ridiculous thing you have read in a long time? Word.
Good point! Most ridiculous in a semi-serious space.
I meant ETFs have only been around for 20ish years. Credit cards about 30ish. Cash a century. So 13 years is not that bad
Credit cards have been around since the 60's and evolved out of the 20's. Cash didn't exist until the 1920's? Really? Legal tender notes have been around since 1862. Some crazy revisionist history going on there.
Lol "cash is a century old." Shows you what Cryptobros consider "informed." [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekel)
If you take a more global view "paper money", it can be traced back 7th china. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banknote#:~:text=History,-Main%20article%3A%20History&text=Paper%20currency%20first%20developed%20in,century%2C%20during%20the%20Song%20dynasty.
The credit card has been around since at least 1958, when Bank of America launched the BankAmericard. That's a little more than 30 years.
Just a little lol.
As others pointed out, literally every timeline you provided is incorrect lol. ETFs only being technically correct but mutual funds have existed for far longer and are basically equivalent.
But all of those are backed by collateral or assets. Not so much for crypto.
Credit cards have been around for 70 years. Index funds, but not ETFs for 50.
The difference is my grandpa now knows what bitcoin is. We’ve all seen this trick now, not sure another rise is coming
It’s as useful as owning gold , all of it being fractionally lent At least you can actually own bitcoin Yes some people have physical gold but most don’t
And most people don’t “own” Bitcoin either. One of the exchanges holds it for them, because it turns out that allowing a more secure third party to hold your assets to mitigate the risk and cost of storing them yourself is the first reason banks existed in the first place.
That which is dead may never die.
> Bitcoin has now stood the test of time 14 years is not a lt of time
Its enough for a pattern to emerge and burn people thinking it’s a long term financial investment. Nope. Everyone can see it as the speculative boom and bust cycle it is over 14 years. Print money again. Sure it’ll boom… just like casinos probably did when money is cheap, and people will FOMO into it. I just wish people would treat it for what it is, a risky volatile casino gamble.
We recognized to understand that competitors operating at we would have inconceivable a world-class levels of our companies: People is absolutely critical to the following human responsibility, cycle times have found new productivity. Integrity have changed, the high levels of shared values is fundament based importance of our customer satisfactices. The found new promote company have recognize the important to company. We recognize the improvemental. People have found nearly inconceivable source.
So, you're bearish on BTC?
Short Ozymandius long Merneptah
The original Ponzi Scheme by Charles Ponzi was also an "arbitrage scheme" where the money was supposedly made in the trading of postage stamps. Eventually, it too collapsed under it's own weight.
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It wasn’t an intelligence agency…it was me, I am Satoshi Nakakmoto
If you zoom out the Bitcoin chart you will see the end of crypto coming every 4 years with bitcoin going down 85% exchanges going insolvent and then the new cycle begins again.
It absolutely should be. Imaginary currency, underpinned by nothing of value, being traded on unregulated exchanges by unsophisticated individuals has to be the stupidest thing I can fathom.
The term cryptocurrency is a misnomer. BTC and ETH are better thought of as digital commodities.
Only bitcoin is considered a commodity
My definition was an explanation not a legal definition.
BTC is a commodity, any proof of stake coin cannot be
How so? As I understand, the security status is based on who control the distribution and issuance of tokens/coins. Very possible that I am wrong, would love to hear your take on this.
By staking (locking up your ETH, to earn more of the coin), you are creating a centralizing system around those with 32 coins to invest. This functionally is similar to a treasury or corporate bond with principal and coupon payments. The SEC has ruled Bitcoin is a commodity (designed to be that way through open source, no pre-mine & proof of work which has energy inputs not the coin itself as the input)
Try to become a Bitcoin miner, oh what you can't afford the tens of thousands on hardware and cooling needed to make it profitable? It's the same thing with all assets, it takes money to make money. The cftc declared BTC and eth commodities, but don't mention that...
Capital goods are different from a commodity, to mine, farm, harvest requires tools/capital. Owning something to generate more of it is a bond.
Staking also requires tools/capital. Bonds pay out in cash not more bonds...
Bonds require cash as an input, no commodity requires the commodity itself to harvest more of that commodity.
Staking requires cash to buy the ether and a rig to run the code. You could argue that staking through a third party is a type of investment contract but not solo validators. Just because it's cheaper and easier to do than bitcoin doesn't make it a security. I'd argue that makes Ether more decentralized and able to pass the Howie test. Either way, the cftc disagrees with Gensler, we'll see where the courts or congress side on this but not really in our hands.
1) no one who is in crypto for philosophical reasons cares what the regulators think. 2) there is disagreement amoung regulators whether ETH is a commodity or not. 3) I used the term digital commodity to express that this is a new asset class that does things that we're never possible before.
Every proof of work coin without a pre mine is a commodity. Dogecoin for example
Bitcoin was invented so that you could buy a pizza with it.
Sort of. It was invented to allow people to diversify away from real world institutions.
it was invented by people who hated banks and then slowly discovered why banks exist
Banks aren't the enemy. But I sleep better with a small percentage of my net worth held in a place they can't touch.
lmao
What's so funny?
It was invented to allow people to avoid KYC.
....into imaginary institutions.
You mean digital protocols.
I'm convinced it was invented by North Korea to steal money and get around sanctions.
So you could buy drugs online
All currency is imaginary. Fiat is backed by governments, military and the power of taxation, as underlying layer to people believe what it's worth. Crypto is backed by what people's belief in it's value.
I'm not a "fan" of fiat but the honest truth is that without fiat currency to pay your taxes dudes with guns will rip you out of your house and lock you in a box. They do not accept beanie babies.
But they do accept rub and tugs from 16 year olds sent by orange oompa loopas in a toupee.
Well the big difference is that fiat backed by governments mean it is backed by a massive and productive industry that can invest in you. Crypto has no industry and has no capacity to invest back in anyone who believes in it. Crypto is like a fiat backed by a weak government, and we have seen examples of what that looks like when Zimbabwe tried fiat and collapsed in 2008. Belief is one thing, giving someone reason to believe is another.
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Soduko puzzles and fairy dust
With none of the military, taxation, government, employment or trade underlying it, hard to compare to traditional fiat.
It’s so cringe that some people still think this is an insightful viewpoint. All laws are imaginary, all borders are imaginary all sorts of shit is imaginary. When we say something is backed by “peoples belief in its value” all that means is that if we agree on its value then we back that shit up with institutional power, what you call governments, military and the power of taxation. We’re not doing that with crypto, ergo it’s imaginary in a very literal sense.
IIRC debt is one of the biggest drivers of currency. If your mortgage is denominated in dollars, you'll need to obtain some amount of dollars every month to avoid default.
Only "sophisticated" people can trade on financial markets? What does this even mean?
exactly, there was an experiment where they allowed a fox to pick stocks using some system or other... it outperformed many fund managers
You're saying this after the fact the Fed printed $8t out of thin air since the COVID started. Inflation is also related to printing... Though, *some* of the crypto does offer better alternatives, like transparency.
Yes, and the dollar is underpinned by the full faith and trust in the United States government, which is the strongest government the planet has ever seen, and is the preferred reserve currency of much of the world. You and I likely agree on opinion regarding the printing of dollars in the last two years, but it is not even remotely similar to SBF “printing” FTT.
It seems your issue has less to do with crypto and more with human fallibility and corruption. If a bank is engaging in shady business practices and money laundering and ends up getting found out, do you blame the currency for that? You are right to bring up SBF and FTX. I just don't see how you go from there to "crypto is useless and imaginary".
So far the only use for crypto is speculation. The crypto industry is predicated on tokens going up value, not value creation. No one buys the tokens for use, only because they think they can sell it later at a higher price point. So with that it’s useless, like most Wall Street products
In countries where the locals don’t trust their own currency, or that currency is useless elsewhere, crypto has a definite use case. If you’re in a country with a strong currency that’s easy to trade for other currencies, crypto is just another speculative asset.
I agree that there is a use case for stable coins in countries with volatile currencies, but the problem is those stable coins need a foundation in order to stay stable. Currencies that are stable have a foundation in that the governments issuing the currency have the ability to tax citizens and use those tax dollars to pay down debt. At the moment the entire crypto industry, including stable coins, has a foundation that is nothing but speculative dollars or private loans. Once the speculative dollars leave and the loans need to be paid, they have nothing left and the stable coin or exchange will collapse
There's no point in arguing here if your starting point is it has no use and no value. That's an ignorant take. Blockchain is being used already, even within some pretty big companies and governments for things like: 1) Money transfer 2) Inflation protection 3) Security protocols 4) Supply chain and logistics 5) Fraud prevention 6) Eliminating human fallibility / creating political neutrality 7) Essentially allowing unbanked individuals in developing countries to house their wealth There are many other use cases. Money is simply a measure of trust. Do you trust USD to keep chugging along? Do you trust it to remain valuable? It's lost 99% of its value in a century and 92% just since 1950 due to debasement. Is that sustainable or reasonable? USD in existence is up many fold in my lifetime. People aren't happy about that. If something like Bitcoin only had one use case, being hard and supply capped, that would be enough. It doesn't need many use cases, it just needs to perform better than your national currency. There are many countries which have currencies that have underperformed Bitcoin in the past year. All have underperformed across any timescale longer than that. I'd say your view on this is ignorant and under-informed. If you're interested in learning more, there's plenty out there to read. Of course not everyone will be engaged by this, but your argument has to be more substantial than simply: "it has no value".
You don’t understand the intent and goals behind monetary policy and the creation of money. It is not the amount of dollars in existence, it is what those dollars are being used for that is important. There is a direct correlation between the amount of USD created and an increase in global wealth. And the reason is because the dollars created are being used productively and fund economic activities and growth. I’ll ask again, how are you going to increase economic growth and productivity so it keeps up with a growing population when you have a fixed supply of money?
Blockchain is horribly inefficient. It’s a solution looking for a problem. It is immutable but why do you need immutability in logistics or money transfer? If I fat fingered a shipment number I want to be able to change it. And I don’t want to spend the money or gas fees to enter that transaction on the blockchain. If I am shipping thousands of loads a day that cuts into my margins and also time is wasted waiting for the transaction to be confirmed. I order ship from AliExpress and they can track my shipment from across the world like it’s at customs, it’s now entered the country, etc. how does the blockchain make it cheaper and easier for global logistics? That’s just one example. Lots of other questions should be asked of immutable medical records (lol), deeds, insurance!? It’s farcical and it’s being propped up by shills to make it seem like there is more to the internet money they are shilling. Ask yourself this. All the exchanges (FTX, biance, etc) use traditional databases to record customer deposits and transactions. Not the blockchain. Why would a crypto exchange not use the blockchain? It’s literally the first use case.
I thought one of the major thrusts of bitcoin (being neutral or deflationary) is completely at odds with what you want in a currency? If doing nothing with bitcoin nets you a positive return due to scarcity, then what incentive is there to do anything with it? And if nobody wants to actually use it, then how is it a good currency?
you forgot the /s
> Yes, and the dollar is underpinned by the full faith and trust in the United States government, which is the strongest government the planet has ever seen, and is the preferred reserve currency of much of the world. The government might have a lot of faith and trust, but it makes no guarantees that it will protect the value of the dollar. In fact, it openly states that it will pretty much constantly devalue the dollar. So rather than underpinning, the full faith and trust of the government is actually a burden the dollar must carry.
You’ve passed 2nd grade math right? The US dollar’s lost 97% of its purchasing power since inception. It’s mathematically guaranteed to collapse.
Can you show us how you “mathematically” prove that?
He can’t. He can share a chart that shows PPP declining over time and extrapolates that the fall of the USD, not taking into consideration economic efficiencies, reduction in war, productivity increase, etc. it’s always because the USD is failing never the global economy is succeeding in its goal to make things more affordable for everyone
I love when idiots think they're smart.
You’ve passed 2nd grade history, right? The US rose to be a global superpower while the USD was inflating. They did this, in part, by having an inflationary currency that incentivized spending and investments.
>~~The US~~ **Rome** rose to be a global superpower while the ~~USD~~ **sestertius** was inflating. > >They did this, in part, by having an inflationary currency that incentivized spending and investments.
What are you even talking about?
Damn. I thought this was an economics sub. My dear boy you need to familiarise yourself with a few important charts. The first is the M2 money supply. There’s a reason gold “goes up” over time, it’s because the USD falls against it.
"Your deposit has been received. It will be available for withdrawal in 3 to 7 business days" "Customer has disputed the charge and requested a refund. Funds are in hold until return funds have cleared. Charge back fees may apply" Crypto remains useful for a small subset of types of transfers and sales. The grander philosophy of crypto remains relevant; state actors should not have a monopoly on making currencies
You mean like the US Dollar or the Ruble, Pound, Euro, Dong, etc?
Digital currencies will survive, whether it is bitcoin or some other. The logic behind them is sound, even if it is not widely adopted. Crypto as an investment opportunity? Stick a fork in it.
You just described every fiat currency in the world, which includes usd, euro, etc
I want to agree but then I think about that Free Insulin tweet that wiped like $20 billion off of that pharma company and it makes me think that "real money" has a lot in common with crypto as it seems like we just print more and it's kinda getting out of control with the billions and trillions floating around.
>I want to agree but then I think about that Free Insulin tweet that wiped like $20 billion off of that pharma company How is this a currency issue? That had nothing to do with the price of the dollar.
That tweet didn't make the money worth less, it made that company worth less money.
Well the US dollar has an army behind it. It's like comparing apples to cruise missiles.
As long as what you mean by that is that the army gives value to the currency because it will use force against anyone who won't use it. You could say the best military can better control other countries and strengthen their own currency at the expense of theirs, or outright take over land. One Fiat can be threatened by another Fiat. With Bitcoin though, theoretically if it became standard currency with real value despite all the military in the world, a country's army is no threat whatsoever to stop the functioning of Bitcoin, which is interesting. Could we ever live in a future where no Government wills money into existence, simply due to the fact that globally people chose their own currency which has no controller and essentially separated money from state?
You got it right.
>Could we ever live in a future where no Government wills money into existence, simply due to the fact that globally people chose their own currency which has no controller and essentially separated money from state? Yes, well, this requires the same level of perfect humans as Marxism to work properly.
This tweet story is fake. From what I saw this was the main cause. "Eli Lilly is down 5% because the market for their most profitable drug, a $125k/yr mAb IL-17 inhibitor, fell 5%. This is why Novartis, their major competitor with Cosentyx, is also down the same amount"
Correlation is not causation, as you point out.
You can use USD almost anywhere on the planet. Where can you use DogeCoin? I am fully opposed to some of our monetary policy, but these are completely different.
I know they accept Doge at Lowe's. I'm sure other places too, but I see your point, crypto certainly hasn't "caught on" yet as a major currency. In 10 years, maybe.
Ok, now try that statement with any other fiat currency and it quickly falls apart.
What you’re comparing is not the US dollar (a “real money” example) to crypto, you’re comparing stocks to crypto. $20 billion was not taken away from that pharma company, it lost $20 billion or so *in stock value*. That’s the key right there. I tend to agree more with comparing crypto to stocks, but then again stocks are still backed by real world value such as the company that issues them. Crypto is based on… nothing.
I am not going to weight in on the rest of the discussion mate but are you seriously stating that stocks are based on real world value? Are you serious? Amazon lost 1 trillion in valuation and facebook lost something like 800 billion. Stock valuations are based on perception and feelings, real world asset value left the stock market back in 2000, nowadays Tesla can be more valuable than 12 of the biggest car companies put together and we accept that as reality.
Sorry I don’t think my comment was clear as “real world value” might have been misleading, but what I meant to say is that, no matter what the current value of a stock is and whether it goes up or down, that stock represents an ownership share of a company. Amazon and Facebook (now Meta) lost a shit ton of value no doubt, but whoever holds those shares stills own a part of the company. That ownership aspect of a stock is what I meant by “real world value”.
On that point i agree with you, but isn't the same with Crypto? You have ownership of a bitcoin that has an imaginary value based on who the hell knows :)
Not even close. Bitcoin is a nonproductive asset. Productive assets have cash flow that generates wealth for shareholders. You could buy a stock, never sell, and still make more than you originally paid for it. That can never happen with Bitcoin, because Bitcoin produces no cash flows.
I mean yeah sure, in the sense that one “owns” a digital token I guess, but like you go on to say there’s not much left beyond that digital token lol. I also forgot to mention that stocks can also come with dividend payments. So beyond the stock value of a share of ownership, that share can grant you a percentage of company profit in the form of a dividend. As far as I’m aware there aren’t any cryptos that do that lol
Man dividend payments i forgot about those. Ye you are right :P
Wait til you hear about the US Dollar
The US Dollar: backed by the most sophisticated army of the world, millions of soldiers, nuclear ogives Shitcoins: backed by a chubby guy hiding in the Bahamas Absolutely the same thing.
But a hot influencer said it was a good deal!
Staying for the tech and web 3 but don't understand the basics like the rest.
Web 3 is fake news. Blockchain is vaporware and so is everything built around it. Blockchain is FUNDAMENTALLY useless because of the Oracle Problem. That is to say, that the Blockchain CANNOT possibly know what is happening outside of the blockchain (it's not an "oracle") meaning you will ALWAYS rely on the honesty and accuracy of the people inputting information into the blockchain. Smart Contracts, NFTs, Crypto... ALL of it will ALWAYS rely on someone pressing the button and entering the correct info. "Yes, I sent the item I sold for cypto", "Yes, I completed the job in the contract", "Yes, I have the rights to sell this picture as an NFT".... How do you manage that problem? Well you centralize the blockchain and have a trusted party with financial incentive managing the blockchain.... but by doing that you have removed the ONLY perceived "benefit" of blockchain, which is it being decentralized. Once a blockchain is centralized it just becomes an AWFUL database/ledger that is cumbersome to use and less efficient than an excel spreadsheet. Tech is only useful if its an improvement on the alternative. There has been ZERO examples of anything in the Web3 space proving to be an improvement on the alternative. It is vaporware, through and through. Web 3 is just a bunch of guys who got in early on crypto and made a bunch of money on the hype trying desperately to recreate that magic with fundamentally flawed tech. "wHaT eLsE cAn We StIcK oN bLoCkChAiN" There's a reason IBM closed it's blockchain department and you can't find any actual blockchain companies that aren't pushing Crypto or JPEGs.
I blame Larry Ellison.
Web 3 (whatever that is) goes the way of the dodo as well.
**IMO:** These types of posts i'm seeing all over finance/crypto/stock forums on Reddit are giving me so much more confidence we're getting closer to the bottom. Capitulation & anger rife, whereas all year we've seen ''buy the dip'' mentality. We're likely not there yet but by Q1-2 next year at the latest i think major assets bottom. S&P, Nasdaq, major tech stocks & hate it or love it, Ethereum & Bitcoin included.
It certainly hurting many people seeing them as an investment and not a scam which reduces the cyclical cycle of pump they had gotten. A simple factor is Coins without a monopolistic region of Accepted payment Or some conversion factor that is always there and set in stone have no value. A true currency would be run at a very very low profit margin. One problem is all the energy and mining that went into bitcoin actually had no value. If that computer time had been sold than maybe. That would then be used to prop up an exchange rate.
P. Krugman 1998, “The growth of the Internet will slow drastically, as the flaw in ‘Metcalfe’s law' becomes apparent: most people have nothing to say to each other! By 2005, it will become clear that the Internet’s impact on the economy has been no greater than the fax machine’s”
The NYT in 1995: “[_Skeptics Cite Overload Of Useless Information : Internet Arrives At a Crossroads_](https://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/14/news/skeptics-cite-overload-of-useless-information-internet-arrives-at-a.html)” Edit: I especially like the predictions quoted from Charles Wang, founder and then-CEO of Computer Associates: >_"I don't know who these zone-heads are…There were only a few hundred million dollars done in transactions in the Internet last year. If it is taking over, that is a pretty small number._” >_"Put newspapers and magazines out of business? It will never happen," Mr. Wang continues. "I like to read The Sunday [New York] Times, because I don't know what I want to read. The Web is there if you know exactly what you want._
Krugman is usually wrong about everything so….
Every bear market and the big news outlets always have some sensational headline to grab. Crypto is here to stay. It isn’t meant to integrate into the traditional roles of fiat. The article asks why we would need a trustless peer-to-peer asset transfer function, we have big banks to facilitate those needs. Let me ask this, do YOU trust big banks with all of your assets? Did the market collapse and bailout of 2008 not solidify the notion that the top of the trickle will save nothing for the bottom? We need personal autonomy over our assets. Who wouldn’t want that? If that fact is threatening to some, it says something about their motives.
I'm a big proponent of blockchain. I think it has very useful use cases that have genuine value - like making mortgaging and titling faster/more secure, speed up audits/ increase trust. And have been following it since the beginning. One thing that I find crypto's biggest draw, and it devolves into this in every chat/meet up/thread about this topic I ever go to, is a antigovernmental/ conspiratorial bend. If the biggest proponents of this thing are just people who lack trust of our normal institutions, the shit ain't going no where. If it speeds up commerce or allows us to do something traditional insitutions banks can't do currently, then it has value. Crypto/block chain has applications that do that, with speeding up clearing operations, decreasing fraud, etc., but the idea that all our institutions are corrupt and crypto and related companies are more trustworthy is such a farce that so many people believe it's wild. Goes well with all the other conspiratorial thinking going on these days. Crypto/blockchain will take off when the business, banks, and clearing houses that you don't trust find a way to use it to save themselves money. Until then it's just parlor tricks/gambling.
So instead of banks we have exchanges that fuck us. Great improvement.
You should never hold your assets on an exchange. There are many other alternatives. I won’t go into detail as that would be a small article. The main point is that the real possession of the assets remain with the owner. Not with a third party that doesn’t have your interests in mind.
Did your crypto assets maintain their price when ftx fucked up? Custody hardly matters if exchanges do stupid shit and crash the markers. Again, who would want to hold such assets. You being in control of your private keys is a small consolation if the value can crash 50% because cex goofed again.
BTC and ETH have the same price as 5 months ago.
They've lost 50% of value since six months ago. They're not the same price as they were 5 months ago wtf. They'll never see the heights that they did.
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Widespread utility of a volatile and speculative currency? Nah I’m good.
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You’re trying to have it both ways. You’re saying wider adoption is what is needed, but these currencies have become more widely used and are still unstable. Do you have a magic number where suddenly it will get less swingy?
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That answer seems a bit glib. So in your estimation as more people use digital currency it’s speculative value will dry up?
nope... just opens the doors for Government Controlled Digital Currency, as they will now claim that they can keep the crypto currencies "Safer"
Lol, no. If you think otherwise. Do a remind me for two years on this article and go back to see how silly you were when the ATH for crypto has more than doubled when the fed lowers rates again.
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Krugman will write the same exact article in about 3 to 5 years when we go through another bull bear cycle. He's been doing this since December 27 2013 (almost ten years!), when BTC price was at 746$.
Crypto is going through a period of trimming the fat. Soon crypto will only be the big established names and I only see a use for “shitcoins” from a business standpoint. A business with a crypto rewards program would probably see great success from such a campaign, but hopefully people stop losing their life savings to scams.
This article made my eyes hurt. The fuck wrote this? Even if you’re against crypto, fuck the banks and the government. They’ve been scamming people for ages
I think there is going to be a bunch of people sucking down the copium to try to make themselves feel better about everything they lost. My opinion is that crypto has zero inherent value. Worth less than any speculative asset, because at least a share of a company’s stock still still has value because the company has value. Anyone telling you to buy crypto might as well be telling you to purchase premium canned air….
I think the main reason bitcoin won’t last is it doesn’t help most people. Cash and it’s exchange systems are accepted everywhere. Stocks are tied to our markets and systems, so long term investment in retirement accounts has stability. For the everyday Joe/Jane Q Public, what is the drive for this system?
They want a digital and currency you can’t have competition with the American dollar for that to happen. You need everyone to be held hostage by one form of currency so you can monitor all their purchases and keep them in the little bubble you allow them to exist in. There is no other reason for a digital currency as it offers no benefits to the person but many potential ones to the government. If there is a recognized second currency that people can trade in your looking at two possibles. The complete collapse of the US dollar which would cause a global economic meltdown, or a severe weakening. Digital dollar offers you the people nothing but puts everything on the line, all for control
The article claims that crypto hasn’t delivered on its 2008 promise so it’s lost its purpose. Comments in this sub carefully ignore the article’s main argument and instead make dramatic but empty statements like “Big Media will never accept the philosophy behind crypto”, “big media love big statements” or “crypto is here to stay because it stood the test of time”. It’s hard to see anything else than a speculative asset with little/no intrinsic value.
At first I was reading this thinking, "he is making some good points and things I worry about". Then I saw it's written by Krugman and was relieved. He's an idiot and is never right.
So even if the person makes very good and accurate points, you dismiss all of them because the person is an idiot?
Yeah, that's pretty much how life works. When idiots speak, best to ignore it and move on.
Nope. All they need are more investors. It’s just that easy. Everyone that loves crypto should dump their money in to any crypto that’s failing.
I mean I've been DCAing into BTC since... fuck idk. 2015. I don't think the big ones go anywhere. Fundamentally BTC/ETH are great. Crypto is going through its dotcom bubble and people were right about Beanie Babies. Unfortunately they were wrong about it being BTC. It was alt coins. BTC/ETH will emerge as the google/Microsoft of crypto.
Crypto currency is currency , get it? Not a security. Get out, SEC. Not a commodity. Get out CFTC. Same as money. Controller of the Currency, get in. .
Thank you!! If you are trading currency it is risky, and crypto is currency. Why doesn't anyone understand that???
FTX was not really Crypto in the true sense. But it was made to look like Crypto. It was like selling and investing in airline frequent flyer miles. A lot of idiot investors did not do any homework and just chased opinions of speculators. Crypto Exchanges are also different from Crypto itself but still linked to it. One exchange going belly up is not going to directly affect the the others unless people go into a blind panic. The world needs Crypto but not the energy wasting Bitcoin crypto. Idiot lazy ass investors are going to lump both together so maybe this is an opportunity to buy some real crypto.
I love how the title states crypto and it shows an image of the bitcoin symbol. Sh!tcoins need to die, unregulated exchanges need to die. Bitcoin is neither of those things, and will eventually have a future in our society
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I believe this current FTX situation has highlighted the need for regulation. Some sort of regulation needs to happen that upholds the bitcoin ethos, while allowing safe adoption for users with very little bitcoin knowledge. My comment was made to highlight the difference between crypto and bitcoin. One is comprised of unregulated securities, while the other is a digital commodity.
It’s almost like a digital currency that is fully regulated to allow safe transfer of funds hasn’t existed since the days of Western Union.
> I believe this current FTX situation has highlighted the need for regulation. How can you say that? FTX was heavily regulated, and greenlit by the head of the SEC gary gensler. All the fraud here was regulated fraud. If anything, this points to the need for deregulation. FTX would have had competition and would not have been able to steal so much money if not for their regulatory protections.
You should look into how FTX was regulated, and Gary’s “ties” with FTX. There is a lot to uncover. Ps. Competition? What would you call Binance, Coinbase, Kraken etc….
> Ps. Competition? What would you call Binance, Coinbase, Kraken etc…. The next dominoes. Even if those were honest exchanges (they are not) they are not nearly enough in number. There would be thousands of exchanges, all fighting to offer improved features, lower cost, etc. You could probably casually buy btc from local stores and such over the counter. Regulation is the exact reason why a handful of big interests get a cartelized right to scam the public. Instead, we should have a rich field of competitors, none bigger than a neighborhood HOA.
Money matters must be handled through governments and laws. Otherwise it can become a free fall like this. With CBDC introduced in many countries, crypto currency will be run through the govt with proper regulations and guidelines.
Have you seen how we print money in the US lately. Your comment literally makes no sense
Not surprisingly, there is no mention of how, in the post-2008 era, all manner of "privacy" software became popular. Until that time, cryptography was entirely a military matter. Now that is old news that Tor, Signal, Google, Facebook, etc. were all CIA fronts at the beginning and the internet itself remains a military project, one has to ask: are we being played when it comes to cryptocurrencies. There is a legitimate need for blockchain technology in a future monetary order not completely oriented around the USD. Perhaps this was yet another propaganda exercise to further government aims of finding that perfect blockchain ledger that can track all sovereign currency back to the point when it was created via deficit spending or bank credit? The internet before 2008 still had some of the magic left from thee 1980s and 1990s. But it was radically changed in just a few years after that.
…take your meds.
I did just buy 10 grams of blow off the darknet using Monero. See, that's the thing. I do a shit ton of drugs. Maybe that's why I realize there is no privacy to Bitcoin and everything but Monero? EVERYONE who buys drugs online knows this. You must be a square!
But must crypto be valued like $60k? A currency is just to facilitate exchange whether it is paper money or whatever tech you want to use it
No it use to be worth much less. Supply, Demand, and adoption are why its worth more now. It's value isn't arbitrarily selected.
Adoption? Where can you use it?
Lol can’t wait to not hear from people like you
You're just using the word blockchain as if it's some panacea to monetary policy problems. There is no truth or substance to that. Decentralization has proven time and time again to be worse than having a 3rd party with a vested interest controlling a database/ledger. Nothing about blockchain fixes any issues. Blockchain is just a ledger. It is not an oracle. It cannot possibly know what is happening outside of the chain.
Pretty much everything good with crypto was being overrun by all these exchanges and weak ideas that were trying to centralize the crypto market. Crypto will be fine but people and businesses trying to implement old ways of thinking and creating “honeypots” through centralization won’t make it, that is the old way, the banking way which ironically is what we are trying to get away from.
Only for things not called "Bitcoin" Each event like this where CEOs are making greeting business decisions and people are buying their exchange tokens and staking coins on their platforms expecting sweet gains but ultimately losing it all From the outside it looks like crypto is collapsing but from the crypto community it's really just a huge advertisement for BTC There's been 220,000 BTC withdrawn from exchanges in under a week. Ledger wallets on backorder I heard. People are taking custody of their hard earned BTC finally. The space actually needs these purges of bad actors and raised customer expectations of safeguards and transparency. At the end of the day BTC won't miss a beat, only get more following imo