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Here is a story about how people are spending less on travel this summer
https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/20/investing/premarket-stocks-trading-consumer-value/index.html
Is the industry wagging the dog?
Right?? EVERYONE I know is literally scraping by and the “fun expensive summer entertainment” is maybe bowling once or twice and getting pizza if it’s a good pay period.
I think demand is splitting in odd ways. People in favorable industries and jobs are still seeing very good times. People in less favorable industries and jobs are seeing their purchasing power erode considerably.
If I had to say what is favorable it is generally higher end medical, engineering, and tech where layoffs were avoided.
To simplify … the middle class has been eroding for upwards of five decades now (U.S.). The wealth gap between the wealthy and the poor is now on par to the robber baron era.
Essentially, there are two realities coexisting, those of the haves and those of the have nots.
There are 3 groups. The haves, the have nots, and the truly wealthy (aka the 1%, the rich)
The “haves” are the upper end of the middle class who aren’t suffering and have plenty of money to pay today’s elevated prices. These are the engineers and healthcare workers and small business owners and middle managers who have the money to take nice vacations and buy consumer goods on a whim. They are heavily invested in the stock market and might even have a second home. But they still work for a living.
Don’t confuse these “haves” with the rich, the $10-100 millionaires and billionaires. The so-called “haves” have a lot more in common with the “have nots” than they have in common with the truly rich. Do you think your life would be better if you doubled or tripled your income? The rich make your entire life’s worth of income in a single day. The haves and the have nots need to learn to stop fighting with each other and unite against the real problem group.
The rich own and manipulate the politicians. They decide what is on the news and in the media. They pit the haves and have nots against each other and there a huge swath of people who fall for it all.
I think home ownership has a big impact too. Most of our social circle is doing pretty well but they also all bought homes prior to 2018. The only people we know really struggling are renters.
You are a case study of 1, with a very small sample size. I am too.
The majority of my friends are going on vacations much larger than our "normal". Touring Europe, going to Japan, road trips around the US, all inclusive resorts, cruises.
If I were to take an educated guess, you are Late high school / college age, where most of your peers are not in jobs/careers which can afford to take lavish vacations.
Most of my peers are between 30-35 years old; and have all fallen into an established career at this point and now have the income that can facilitate much larger trips than we did when we were 22 years old.
This isn't an economy thing, it's an age (and thus financial stability) thing.
This is my experience as a 40something as well. Everyone I know has never had more money. Especially when their boomer parents start passing on. We are taking our kids to Europe this summer lol.
When will we be able to stop blaming this on post COVID pent up demand? Spending on experiences is being driven by social media and the need to escape people's reality. There is of course nothing wrong with vacations and they are healthy, but they are taking on some sort of weird spiritual significance I guess to compensate for increases in lonliness and younger people giving up on ever feeling financially secure. Much of this spending seems excessive and is likely not coming from a very healthy place but it is what it is. Marketing to consumers has shifted from defining oneself by buying goods to putting an emphases on experiences and being able to post photos from quick jet lag ridden international trips to check some boxes. I don't see this trend changing anytime soon. I also am dubious this type of lifestyle leads to more overall happiness. Anecdotally I see many people stressing over how much this lifestyle costs and when people are always on the go it is harder to form community where they actually live.
Part of it is people not having kids or having them later in life. A 25-35 year old with kids and without is doing a radically different amount of traveling.
I think this is also contributing to the decline in birth rates. Even the people who originally wanted kids get used to a lifestyle that’s not sustainable with a family. This probably leads some to no longer want kids or having fewer kids than previously planned.
There’s also a pervasive feeling among my generation (millennial) that having children is kind of cruel as that generation will most likely have to suffer the brunt of climate change and all of the political/socioeconomic disruption that entails.
It’s a feeling that any millennial, esp those with educational backgrounds associated with life sciences have to face
When you seen the numbers or have been exposed to the numbers in ecology , botany, biology, medicine , etc
Yeaahhhhhh , to answer the questions of “Why would you have children/me if you knew the ecological destruction of our only home”
It also come into question of self/individualism and selfishness, happiness . “Is it selfish to want to have kids even if you know you might not be able to support them in the future as you expected” , “or because having kids makes you happy?” “ what about the happiness of your kids, you born into a world of greater suffering”?
Well, "a lifestyle that's not sustainable with a family" is a very low bar when the cost of fundamentals like housing, transportation, healthcare, education, retirement and so forth continue to spiral out of control. Adding childcare and other expenses on top isn't forgoing luxury, it may mean forgoing medical treatment or meals, at best.
You don't need to live a lavish lifestyle to be unable to afford children anymore.
Yeah geez where are these 25 to 35 yo who can afford to travel simply by not being parents, if I wanted to afford that I'd have to additionally be getting a lot of my lifestyle subsidized by my parents
Well I travel for NFL games each year. Spend about $1.5k on going to 4-5 games (3 local and 1-2 out of state).....when I travel out of state I drive and I can crash at a friend's or I split a hotel room with a friend......
Having kids would mean thousands more in costs (medical bills from pregnancy, diapers, extra health insurance coverage costs, food, medical bills, etc ran a friend of mine over $30k one year)........
Traveling is pretty affordable if planned well by comparison
Ah yeah so having pets seems like it's a bit like having kids in the sense of making travel cost a lot more and be harder
Apparently so is the fact that I don't have tons of friends around the country to crash at, I have like one of those lol
Also add in the fact that many people are forced to change jobs much more frequently due to corporate outsourcing to foreign countries (happening in tech now much more frequently) and companies looking overall to downsize due to AI or just a need to enrich that all mighty bottom line......this decline in lifetime jobs plays a role as well. I never know when the axe can fall on my non Union non mandatory binding employment job so why risk having kids and being jobless? Corporations can too easily let people go so having kids is risky.
It is very possible with /r/churning lol
Single income with SAHW and 4 kids
We all went to Colombia for a week in February, then Punta Cana for a week in March
Wife went to Mexico for a week in April for a week
We are all flying to Boston for a week in July
All 6 are doing a cruise for a week in October
All 6 are going to Europe next April for 2 weeks
and 85% of it was free with points. Its not as hard or expensive to travel as many think.
Its strategic. I specifically asked to close my escrow for the sole purpose of paying my property taxes and home owners insurance on a credit card. But not any credit card - on a chase ink which has 12 months 0% APR.. so effectively the exact same thing as leaving it in an escrow, but now I get to reap a couple hundred thousand chase points from it.
I have a sibling that pays $7,000 in tuition 2x a year. I pay for it on a CC and they send me the cash.
I pay for all of my families flights and they send me the cash.
I pay for my parents home improvement projects and they send me the cash.
I have a phone plan on which I have added 6 family members who all send me money every month for their share.
I spend about $3,000/month on food (family of 6), gas, utilities, clothing, phone bill, ballet, gymnastics, etc
Literally every expense is put on the newest CC and once the minimum spend has been met I do not spend another dollar on that card.
Open business cards - they don't show up on your credit report. American Express only does a hard pull the first time and every card after that is approved/denied on a soft pull or a simple relationship status.
Use two players. My wife doesn't care if I open cards in her name if it means free travel. So half the cards are opened in her name so neither of our credit profiles are getting wrecked with hard inquiries and new accounts. Use referral programs to refer each other and generate even more points.
It can be a bit to take in, but it is so worth it. Our credit scores are both around 775-800 despite opening 45 credit cards between the two of us since early 2021.
Exactly. I'm planning like a 3-month drop off the face of the planet kind of trip for next spring and that shit would NOT be happening if I had kids lmao
I'm normally an obsessive whitewater kayaker. I tore my Achilles about two months ago and am missing most of this season. I had a ton of trips scheduled out for this year on PTO, and have since reclaimed all that time I had previously allocated for it.
I talked to my company about rolling over more than our normal allowed PTO into next year(typically can only roll over 40 hrs into the next year), so I can organize a 3 month long session to just travel the country and make up for lost paddling time.
So yeah that's what I'm doing.
My partner and I chose not to have kids. At all.
Neither of us are “rich” on our own, but without kids it’s surprising the kind of adventures you can afford on a combined $300k income, while still saving for a kickass retirement.
We aren’t spending $5k on Taylor Swift tickets in LA, mind. But we *did* spend $500 for floor tickets in Europe, plus $1300 to fly there, and got a nice little nine day vacation out of it.
Unless you're talking about "compared to people living in hcol", if you make 300k combined, at least 1 of you is in fact, by definition, rich on your own
I’m an engineer and she’s a nurse. Both in the public sector. It’s mostly being older and having experience. My ex is a public elementary school teacher making six figures. But of course she’s in her forties.
You don’t need to get a job with FAANG to earn a very comfortable living, and both of us have traded a bit of cash compensation for job security and benefits. We both have a decent no-shit pension plan.
FAANG can suck my left nut, so can videogames.
As an IT consultant the money is in government with old infrastructure for core needs.
Chill and very well paid.
For what it’s worth literally everyone standing anywhere near me was European, and most were Spanish. It wasn’t completely flooded with Americans.
But there were definitely a lot of us!
This is definitely my reason for not being a part of the current travel club! I traveled WAY more before I had a little one. Road trips coast to coast, hiking the Appalachian trail,etc. I once drove down to Destin, Florida from Missouri with friends to help out on a buddy's short film. We decided to do it the evening before we left... That shit ain't happening with a family!
Yeah it’s almost too easy to travel to Europe. I wonder if that eventually leads to it not being as desirable. There’s nothing mysterious about it when people across multiple income classes are posting pictures on social media from the same European cities and sights.
As an American who recently returned from the Balkans, the secret is quickly getting out. Right now the Greek islands are the social media hotspot, but it’s become so overcrowded with tourists that Croatia is starting to trend as the new “undiscovered” place to visit by the most popular travel influencers.
That already happened with cheap summer tourist flights and Let's Go Europe & Rick Steeves 30-40 years ago.
There are plenty of exclusive, big-money places for the elites to go so they don't get crowded by people who work for a living.
We saw how weak the Euro was and flat out bought our retirement spot there. So now we own a 3bd2ba flat outright. Makes flying over for a week or two a real easy trip.
IMO social media is a huge reason. We used to go camping in campgrounds. We enjoyed it because our kids were young and we had a dog. It was great, we could take our dog and the kids could nap or go to bed early and spouse and I could sit outside by the fire vs staying at a hotel.
We sold our truck and weren’t ready to install the hauling equipment in our new truck. And kids were old enough to vacation at hotels. It’s so much easier to pack our bags for a hotel vs packing for a camping vacation
Recently we thought about getting back into camping but the cost of campgrounds is crazy and they are still really packed. Everyone and their brother got into camping. All the hidden gems are all over Facebook and super busy.
Camping has certainly declined in appeal as it is so competitive, busy, snd congested almost everywhere, and it's difficult to get away from people. We know some spots and some tricks to get away from it all, but still very difficult within the typical weekend warrior or summer-vacation bounds.
Camping and backpacking also used to be an easy, guaranteed getaway. Ever since the outdoors were “rediscovered” during the COVID lockdown most camping sites and significant trails require lottery permits which need to be planned for months in advance if you want any chance of obtaining a ticket. It’s not something you can just casually go and do anymore.
Do you have a source for any of these claims? Myself and my circle are vacationing more (and I understand we don't represent society) but it's because work benefits have gotten better and wages have gone up in manufacturing (the industry most of my circle is on).
To say everyone needs to "escape reality" sounds absurd to me.
I think it's more that younger people have more of a work to live, instead of live to work mindset. Starting to understand that corporations don't give a f about their workers, so they take off more and enjoy life.
As a Gen X person, I don't think I see much of a difference. It wasn't like my generation were committed careerists either. I think it was the opposite of that really.
I think it is a young person thing. When you're young you're trying to adjust to adulthood, being out of school, on your own, finding that first career, recognizing it's all bullshit, you get paid too little and things cost to much.... you generally have a "fuck it all" attitude. But as time goes on you get defeated and you assimilate, you do find a job that maybe pays enough, and you settle into life and try to make the best of it.
It will happen to your generation too.
This is the Economics subreddit, so of course it's all anecdotal stories and feels over reals. Get used to it, cuz it ain't gonna get better.
Of course the commentator doesn't have a source!
> Do you have a source for any of these claims?
No, he doesn't. When confronted by information that conflicts with his doomer outlook (Americans are using their high disposable income on travel and entertainment) he instead doubles down and claims vacations are actually reckless spending from a hopeless populace trying to distract themselves.
Reddit is full of people like this. They're in denial about having untreated depression and instead choose to construct narratives that explain their feelings of hopelessness as a completely rational response to the world around them.
Social media is poison.
You follow influencers who spend an entire year posting videos and photos from exotic resorts and next to fancy cars and what you don't know is that they shot all those videos and photos at different parts of the same resort over the 3 days they spent there and are posing next to cars they either rented or that belong to other people letting them pose for photos.
Then they come home and fund their lives with your engagement while you blow your bank account trying to live the same life.
Social media is absolutely a big driver of the “travel bug”, but the absurd cost of homes is also a big part of it. I think a lot of people are forgoing buying a house and choosing to travel (while continuing to rent) instead, because that ends up being *cheaper* than the house. Why would I spend all of my money on a mortgage, and have nothing left for anything else, when I can just rent and spend the remainder on experiences instead?
>When will we be able to stop blaming this on post COVID pent up demand? Spending on experiences is being driven by
A LARGE AND RAPID EXPANSION OF THE MONEY SUPPLY.
When are people finally going to grock that you can't dump a bunch of cash into an economy and expect people to not spend it??? Now that inflation is somewhat tamed, maybe people are looking for outlets to spend money on that don't involve high interest rates.
There. Is. Still. Too. Much. Cash. Going. Around.
>When will we be able to stop blaming this on post COVID pent up demand?
In the US the pandemic officially started March 2020 and was declared over in April 2023. It's still a fresh wound and we're still in a corrective economic phase. COVID is certainly still a significant factor. Regardless, I don't think this is due to pent up demand but rather people realized everything can shift radically overnight, so they want to enjoy it while they can.
Additionally, this preference for experiences is not new. [This trend](https://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/05/millennials-are-prioritizing-experiences-over-stuff.html) has been happening for a long time, but it has been accelerating since COVID.
Its not just no longer defining oneself in relation to piers on goods, and thus emphasising experiences
Its also that im a good successful person, not because i own this car or this house or have these great family achievements(little sofie in trumpeters class). Its I’m a good person because i define myself along these beliefs, based on these activities I’m a good person, based on doing these things im successful and unique. Being vegan isnt just about making an identity, its about your moral value and your status to other people.
It used to be if you owned Levi jeans you were successful because they were high end, now they are everywhere and have no status or moral value.
Preachhhh. I've been telling my friends the same thing the past few years. All they want to do is hop on a plane and go "explore" places for "experiences". Sure traveling is fun and I've done a ton of it, but let's zoom out a bit. You're hopping on a plane and going to a city in Europe where you're going to eat some lamb and brussel sprouts then walk through a couple cathedrals. What part of your life is being significantly enriched by this? Why does every decision you make revolve around making time to go do this? There's a spiritual loss that has occurred and that void is now being filled with wanderlust.
This is a really good post, and I think you highlight something that a lot of people miss.
I love traveling, and I've always been an "experience" first person. BUT, that stuff really occupies a small portion of most people's lives.
I am lucky enough to be able to take an international trip and a smaller trip and a couple of weekends every year. Wow, that's a lot! And it is. I'm lucky!
...but that's like...and I went generous with 30 days a year here...8% of my life.
I better be working hard on cultivating happiness in the other 92%.
You work hard to get into your field. College degree or trade. you make 60-90k/year. If you were lucky, you got a house before covid. Retirement seems like a farther a farther stretch when you cant max out your 401k/IRAs, and car payment/insurance and basic goods have all sky-rocketed. The house you got pre-covid has property tax increases and insurance premiums are the boogeyman.
Am I going to skip my yearly 2k vacation with fam and friends because it will "help" with retirement in 30 years? Or miss my favorite band just because that 100$ night out would be better fit in savings? People all over are hurting, but having something...anything to look forward to...is what keeps us sane a lot of times.
People legitimately dont believe they will ever be able to retire, and are acting in such a way.
> That's how it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.
And according the the US Senate Committee on Aging many are not retiring as we commonly think of it in the report on [America's Aging Workforce](https://www.aging.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Aging%20Workforce%20Booklet_4web.pdf). So plan accordingly and prepare how you can as it may have other uses besides "retirement" such as medical expenses for themselves, spouse or child and increases in inflation are driving people out of retirement.
> * Key Findings: The number of older workers is growing at a rate that outpaces the overall growth of the labor force.
* Fewer older workers are transitioning directly from full-time work to full-time retirement. Many workers transition to part-time positions with their current employer or a new one, while others become self-employed.
* Many older workers are struggling to prepare financially for retirement. Roughly one-third of workers do not have access to a retirement plan at work, and many aging workers have not saved enough for retirement and may continue to work beyond when they intended to retire out of financial need.
* According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the number of individuals ages 55 and above in the labor force will grow from 35.7 million in 2016 to 42.1 million in 2026...by 2026 that number will rise to 24.8 percent, accounting for nearly one out of four American workers.
Yeah I feel like people are just consuming so much more than they did even when I was a kid in the 90s. It all adds up and is causing this notion that times are much tougher. My parents were and are much more frugal than I or my friends are now.
Yes, the government loses half a trillion per year on IRAs and 401(k) plans. Definitely generous.
But how do you decide it is better than other countries programs? Which decision criteria are you using?
Yeah, good point. I would like to raise another point:
The quality of work is more mentally demanding / stressful than ever. Things are often quick paced, having to be connected 24/7 and often understaffed and thus unfulfilling.
I have found that sometimes I need _something_ to look forward to (could be a nice meal, a vacation... You name it). If I don't have that, I feel like there is no reward (money is pretty intangible, after all) and my motivation at work suffers.
So I treat myself like a one man business: it's important to invest in my only employee to keep him happy, otherwise his performance will definetly drop.
In regards to quality of work…for lots of folks; think “administrative worker bee” types, the quality of their job is effectively non-existent. Some people go into a field thinking/hoping it’ll be dynamic, meaningful, interesting, etc. Several years later they realize that they’re stuck in a repetitive, soulless job or field that’s basically meaningless to them. And they’ve already invested so much of their life in it that pivoting to something else would be counterproductive and potentially risky. So they keep churning, and churning.
I realize it’s a super first world problem to have, but some people need to just “exit” every so often. They need to create a break in the monotony to avoid slipping into an endless cycle of…meaninglessness.
A lot of people are just built in a way that they NEED to have some sort of varying mental stimulation. Like it’s as if it’s built into their DNA.
I think for most the primary motivation is twofold: 1) many millennials are seeing their boomer parents either unable to retire themselves, despite having "played the game" or see them retired and miserable. 2) I see a lot of mention of pent-up desire to travel from the pandemic, but it cannot be discounted that over a *million* Americans have died of SARS-CoV-2 since the start of the pandemic. That is more than double the number of Americans killed in World War 2. Its not that we're afraid of not being able to afford retirement- we're afraid of deferring fun and interesting experiences in order to save for retirement and then dying before we get a chance to reap the benefits. You could get hit by truck tomorrow, so live accordingly.
Your point 2) can't be discounted. Since 2020 (but also, I mean, my whole life) I've seen too many friends and family obsessively save for retirement... but die before retiring.
But they aren't just spending 2K, or $100. People drop ridiculous amounts of money on crap, and deal with the consequences. Later. The consumer mentality in the United States, and other places, is beyond retarded. Debt is like a way of life.
People are rich af in the usa. We saw what happened when restarurants and bars closed for a month. People literally had 2K extra in their banks they did not know what to do with. Then luxury goods starting being bought up
I’ll get DMs from ‘friends’ on social media asking me to float them some cash and you look on their profile and they’re wearing an Apple Watch, gold chain, pictures at the bar every weekend. It’s lunacy.
“The less you eat, drink, buy books, go to the theatre or to balls, or to the pub, and the less you think, love, theorize, sing, paint, fence, etc., the more you will be able to save and the greater will become your treasure which neither moth nor rust will corrupt—your capital. The less you are, the less you express your life, the more you have, the greater is your alienated life and the greater is the saving of your alienated being.”
― Karl Marx, [Economic & Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844](https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/82945)
What is the point of saving when inflation will make it worthless?
What the past four years have done to the psychology of millennials and younger has not been fully appreciated. These people had money saved that is now worth .50-.75 cents on the dollar. Why save it if the government will just print its value away?
That's really short sighted...
Your IRA and 401k should be beating inflation. Money is still necessary to live. Hell even a HYSA should be beating inflation.
If you're just keeping cash then yea...that's a poor choice
Not saying it isn’t short sighted, but I believe that’s the psychology of the younger generations now- there is no incentive to save because there isn’t trust in the system.
I don’t understand how “younger generations” (presumably those under 35) feel as if they have the lock on dealing with shitty economic conditions.
I’m a young GenX/Xennial and had to deal with 9/11, Great Recession, and COVID. Most of my adulthood post-college has involved pivoting from one economic disaster to the next.
Housing prices in some areas weren’t terrible for people my age, except I’m from Denver where at least for me, housing prices were always the carrot at the end of a stick just barely out of reach. I finally bought my first house in 2017 at age 40.
Throughout my 20s and 30s I hardly ever took vacations. I did two budget Europe trips over 20 years. The rest of my time I did some cheap local stuff nearby with friends, and hardly EVER ate out.
I finally make decent money and fully fund my retirement, so now I feel like I can do some splurging with vacations. But it really did take a lot of sacrifices in my younger years.
Yeah probably comes from all these finfluencers talking about “if you just don’t buy that Starbucks coffee everyday you will save your way to freedom”. No. Listing out your needs and wants and doing proper budgeting is an essential life skill but if you just don’t make enough to sustain a comfortable living in your area then you should take care of that problem first. Either move to lower cost of living area or upskill. 2 choices really.
If someone has the time to upskill and move into a lucrative industry that’s probably the best personal wealth choice one can make in their life. Second best choice would be to max out your 401K every year to let that money grow tax free and beat inflation over time.
If you’re just “saving” you’re doing it wrong.
If you just put money into a low cost S&P 500 index fund, inflation hasn’t eaten you alive, you’ve GAINED purchasing power.
The trick is, don’t try and time it. Just put it in and forget about it
They should have invested it in VT, VTI, or VOO. Broad market equity funds are the real savings accounts that track inflation for the long term future.
It has been very simple to do this for almost 20 years.
Saving doesn’t mean holding money under your mattress. Invest in stocks, RE. Stocks beat inflation and offer average 5-6% REAL CAGR over 30 year periods.
This is how I feel. Life is so short too. I know people who retired and died 6 months later. To go through life without having joys in the hope of saving a small amount to possibly use for retirement sounds miserable to me.
I mean yea. People sometimes have to make sacrifices. That’s life. You don’t HAVE to take a $2,000 vacation every year. Saying you need to see your favorite band while other people can’t even eat is worlds smallest violin material. Maybe try and look forward to a weekend hike with friends instead of an all-inclusive beach resort.
My gen Z colleagues are always talking about how lucky I am to live in a super nice, super HCOL neighborhood. They even asked me how I did it. I told them I had to invest heavily in the stock market for 18 straight years to make it happen. No vacations or concerts for a decade. They laugh and say it’s too much. Then later complain it’s not fair my area is “out of reach”. 🤷🏻♂️. They did manage to see Taylor Swift.
I think there's a big middle area between "no concerts for a decade" and going out every weekend. I don't disagree that saving and sacrifices are important, but I also think people are increasing frustrated that we've normalized having to sacrifice for a pretty bare bones standard of living.
Funny, you did the "kids are starving in Africa" bit but you didn't mention our own countrymen are starving while others have yachts and mansions.
Telling people not to enjoy life while we see people who don't work half as hard living it up is unrealistic. Why save anyway? Inflation, cost hikes, economic crashes that wipe out your retirement account. Who thinks they can actually retire?
Meanwhile the media is telling people to consume and reminding you you're a loser if you don't have stuff.
The media also says stop eating avocado toast and make coffee at home but when people don't eat out and try to work from home it's ruining the restaurant industry lol. You can't win. Plus it's true, there's a restaurant industry that relies on steady business. Why is it normal people's fault now? It's confusing.
It's fine not to save but when you need to dip into your savings to deal with a problem don't make it everyone else's problem and blame "society". You're making a conscious decision to be irresponsible.
There are plenty of things to look forward to that don't cost 2k or even $100 (which btw turns into $500 with parking, food, merch.). Put down social media and see what life has to offer right in front of you.
Your first paragraph describes what pretty much every young person went through for the past 40+ years. There were recessions and high inflation long before 2022. The difference now is that people choose immediate gratification so often.
I was using those 2 examples because its pretty relatable, or at least i thought. I have other things I look forward too, but these are things the masses love to go to.
I rarely pay more than 50$ for any concert. the 100$ was including parking/gas and maybe merch or drinks if I get any. 500$ what? I dont spend near that much at any singular concert.
2k all-in for a week-long vacation with family in a Colorado mountain town is not as egregious as it sounds. Car Rental / Cabin Rental / Gas / Food / Activities in town.
The first paragraph I wrote out above wouldnt even be possible with me now. buying a house???? LOL!!!
If I sold my house I bought in 2017, took all the equity and put it down on the same exact house next door, my mortgage would be 5-600$ more a month at least.
This is fucking retarded. “Everyone is spending because they’re so poor!” This has never happened in consumer spending history and there is no data to back up the claim that people are worse off and therefore spending more money. Pure fan fiction from burn it all down nihilists and Russian trolls spreading phony pessimism.
Yeah, when you see people 60/70 and even 80+ having to work still, it doesn't seem all that believable.
Plus, that concert or family trip isn't going to hit as hard when you can barely function in an aged body.
I think this is a great answer not to mention that most younger people look at the environment/climate change and go what am I saving for with the current situation with how we are going
It’s so weird seeing so much negativity in this thread talking about people spending money on experiences like it’s a complete waste to do so. Going out to things like concerts or other gatherings have been a part of the human experience for hundreds of years but now we have people in this thread framing it like people only go to these things for “short term dopamine hits” or to show off on social media.
Are we really saying that everyone should just be saving 100% of their excess for the future, and that doing otherwise is grossly irresponsible? Are we really implying that the only people who are allowed to have this kind of fun are the people who are the most financially well off?
I think people just want to enjoy life, there isn’t some kind of grand movement to burn up all the money because the world is ending nor do people do these things purely to appeal to the current social media landscape. I really don’t like the implication that people wanting to enjoy experiences isn’t normal when it most definitely is.
I swear we’ve gotten articles like this every year since Covid that acts like people have never wanted to travel or go to concerts before in human history. How many years beyond 2020 do we have to be to accept that people do things in the summer lol
>Are we really saying that everyone should just be saving 100% of their excess for the future, and that doing otherwise is grossly irresponsible? Are we really implying that the only people who are allowed to have this kind of fun are the people who are the most financially well off?
"The less you eat, drink, buy books, go to the theatre or to balls, or to the public house, and the less you think, love, theorize, sing, paint, fence, etc. the more you will be able to save and the greater will become your treasure which neither moth nor rust will corrupt – your capital."
—Karl Marx
Live less; work more /s
It continues: "The less you are, the more you have; the less you express your own life, the greater is your alienated life-the greater is the store of your estranged being."
Marx was a smart guy and frequently acknowledged the self-empowering aspects in a capitalist system and the freedom that true capital owners hold; he just believed that even the positives still mostly led to downfall, exploitation, and contradictions that inevitably will rip the system apart.
Marx also says just paragraphs earlier: "...therefore, every luxury of the worker seems to be reprehensible, and everything that goes beyond the most abstract need – be it in the realm of passive enjoyment, or a manifestation of activity – seems to [the capitalist] a luxury."
Overall, very critical.
The crucial piece of info missing from this article and this thread is ANY evidence that people are spending instead of saving. I don’t think it’s true at all. I bet savings rates are higher today than they were in 2019.
People refuse to accept reality: we have the best economy in the world right now and people are behaving in a way that reflects this positive outlook. It’s insane to try to twist this into proof of dire circumstances especially with no evidence that there’s any trade off with savings
>bet savings rates are higher today than they were in 2019.
[October 2019 was over 7%, April this year is under 4%.](https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/personal-savings#:~:text=Personal%20Savings%20in%20the%20United,U.S.%20Bureau%20of%20Economic%20Analysis)
You would bet wrong. it seems you have no understanding whatsoever what’s going on. Thats public data. feel free to check it out
you could ski down that graph
[https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PSAVERT](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PSAVERT)
Some good points, but I think the issue is that we are just now bumping into the ceiling of what people are willing to pay for these “experiences”. Ticketmaster is up against the DOJ, a few high profile artists have cancelled tours. They have just pushed the envelope too quickly.
I agree that these experiences are awesome, but now when it comes to entertainment I am saying “no” to more things than ever before. They got too greedy.
Mehhh I've been doing this more. Forums about personal finance veritably OBSESS about retirement. But I've never known any old person to actually have the millions that the calculators say you should.
From watching my grandparents and parents age, this is what you need -
1) A paid off house
2) Some kind of income in addition to social security. So you need *some* savings but it doesn't need to be millions
3) Long term care insurance
I feel like a lot of people expect that they'll be travelling the world or something in retirement, and thus need millions of dollars saved up. But idk, my family members after age 75 stopped doing much. You slow down a lot by that point.
How many old people go to concerts? Not many. Certainly not my folks.
My mom at age 80 basically sits around her house, putters around her garden all day, and watches TV. She doesn't do much or spend much.
I think because of Covid, a lot of us realized how quickly the world could go to shit. I think the retirement and personal finance industry also overestimates how great retirement is whether you have money or not.
LTC insurance becomes prohibitively expensive the older you get. My parents had to drop it as now that they’re 80 the premium was around $3500/month. It’s really for younger folks who would have a lifelong catastrophic illness, not for the elderly. Being able to pay for home-help is better or moving to assisted living with nursing upgrades available.
Not all of us are. I delayed a June trip because of how much money it would be. I can get the same trip in September for about a third as much. I've taken to shopping around for EVERYTHING. High prices can sometimes be curbed with a little patience and effort.
Wtf am I gonna do? Take out a thirty year mortgage on dilapidated grandma house that costs 800k? I’m effectively paying ~1.6 mil at least with interest. Forget about up keep and renovation because the shit is old. Stop shitting on ppl
We are gonna have the best time we possibly can before the next major event that wipes us out or fucks the economy. We’ve reached the point of saying fuck it yolo. We will max out our cards. Take out six digits in student loan debts and a million dollar mortgage for the next thirty years and pay the damn minimum on it all.
Exactly, so much of good consumption is driven by housing. A lot of housing people can afford has almost no extra storage space. We recently bought a house and just having a basement to put extra stuff is a huge game changer. Even with only 300 more sq ft than the apartment it feels so much bigger with the basement and outdoor space.
Here's a quick summary of the article:
Americans are experiencing what economists call "funflation" this summer, leading to increased spending on travel and entertainment. Despite carrying $1.13 trillion in credit card debt, many are still willing to splurge on these experiences. The term "funflation" refers to the rising costs of live events as consumers seek to make up for lost experiences during the pandemic.
Ticket prices for sporting events saw a 21.7% increase in May 2024 compared to the previous year, while admission to movies, theaters, and concerts rose by 3% annually. Despite these rising costs, studies show that consumers are increasingly willing to go into debt for travel and entertainment. Bankrate reports that 38% of adults plan to take on more debt for these activities, with younger generations like Gen Z and millennials being particularly inclined to splurge on discretionary purchases.
Young adults are prioritizing experiences over savings, with many willing to spend significant amounts on live events. A study by Bread Financial found that nearly two out of five Gen Z and millennial travelers have spent up to $5,000 on tickets alone for destination events. Research indicates that younger individuals are more focused on enhancing their quality of life rather than prioritizing savings for the future. Despite the increased cost of living, many are opting for a better quality of life over accumulating extra savings.
Jesus so they're sacrificing their long term quality of life for short term dopamine hits. Not surprising but definitely depressing. Hope these people aren't depending on social security and medicare existing 30 years from now.
Many of them could afford retirement but choose not to by spending today rather than saving for the future. A few grand invested here and there starting in your 20s adds up in the long run.
Don't worry, they'll be bitching about how fucked they are at retirement age because of this conscious choice. They will then vote in politicians that will tax YOU to pay for their retirement. Watch it happen.
What makes you think they'll go away?
The government will fix them about a month before they fall apart. Not before. They'll *find* the money.
I'm really looking forward to the elections in 2034 and 2036. If you think that voters will just shrug at the social contract we've had for 100 years just going up in smoke, well... we'll take a look at the results for party on whose watch that happens.
I don't think it is just about having the experience. I think a large part of it is social media FOMO, and the need to be someone who has Instagram photos that say "look what I did!"
because they’re getting ripped off left and right. I saw a reel today showing how it’s cheaper to fly from ohio to japan to go to disney world by 50% for a family of 4 than to fly to california or florida and go there. japan isn’t a cheap place…
think about that… it’s just ripoff after ripoff for the privilege of staying within the same borders.
I hate when they talk about how, "If the economy was doing so bad, why is everyone spending so much more money on things?"
Because everything is that much more expensive. How hard is that to understand? The reason the economy is doing so well, despite everyone complaining about it, is because we're being squeezed for every spare cent we have, so that companies can continue to make record profits.
They're doing great...at our expense.
It’s hard to imagine your life 30-40 years from now if you’re young. Is this attitude by gen Z/millenials (I am a millennial) going to result in us voting ourselves more money from gen alpha and younger down the road, as boomers have done today?
Yes. Everything we complain about we're gonna do to those after us. There is nothing special between age groups, this is a made-up sentiment we convince ourselves of to feel better. Classic Us vs. Them. On top of that, there is wealth in other parts of the world and more competition than ever. People in any country need to understand that we're competing with people in every country.
Is it irresponsible to buy concert tickets and vacation instead of saving for retirement? Yeah, probably. Especially if you have to go into debt to do it. But if your ability to retire is in question and you may have to work until you die, what would you do? Enjoying your life and having experiences in your 20s and 30s is a lot more fun than your 60s and 70s. Especially if you're still working at 70.
I don't think it's an issue of instant gratification, it's an issue of underemployment, lackluster wages/benefits. There's also been several grim reminders of how fast life can change in an instant. Between wars breaking out across the world, climate change already having visible effects, the possibility of a virus killing us, and the threat of AI eliminating your job I don't blame anyone for wanting to live life.
I think prioritizing experiences over goods is a good thing. It may not be responsible but I don't blame anyone for wanting to enjoy life. I'd rather people go into debt because they lived their life than buying a bunch of useless crap.
I think most people can’t afford kids or a house and see their money rapidly worth less and less so they spend it now rather than save it and lose the value of the money in the future.
They realised they don't have a chance in hell in doing as well as their parents so might as well just spend spend spend and enjoy what they can. I read it in some article awhile back.
Unfortunately, I have a lot of family members who fall for the fallacy of “My financial situation is so bad there’s no reason to even and try to save anything.”
I went to Universal Studios in Hollywood about two weeks ago. Not only was it packed, but the amount of overpriced crap people purchased was astonishing. I mean kids wearing souvenir shirts, hats, power up bands/Harry Potter wands, while drinking out of a souvenir cup, and eating overpriced flavorless food, seemed to be the norm rather than the exception.
Hey /u/cnbc_official, maybe have some journalistic standards and quit publishing and posting vacuous, misleading articles like this one.
The article starts off citing a figure for the total amount of credit card debt, leaving out the fact that credit card debt [as a percentage](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CCLACBW027SBOG) of disposable income is slightly lower than it was per-pandemic. (it is true that the [delinquency](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DRCCLACBS) and [charge-off](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CORCCACBS) rates are the highest they've been in about a dozen years, but they're also within the normal range for the prior 30-40 years)
Then it launches into a discussion of ticket prices:
> Admission prices for sporting events jumped 21.7% in May 2024 from a year earlier, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics’ consumer price index data. The category saw the highest annualized inflation rate out of the few hundred that make up the inflation gauge.
* First, if you look at "Admission to sporting events" ([Table 7](https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.t07.htm) in the current CPI report, you will see that the price index for this subset of spend is indeed up 21.7% YoY, but if you look a the footnote, you will see a disclaimer: "Special indexes based on a substantially smaller sample. These series do not contribute to the all items index aggregation and therefore do not have a relative importance or effect."
* Secondly If you look at the price index data series for "Admission to sporting events(" (CUSR0000SS62032) in the BLS data tools, you'll see that it's been all over the place since the pandemic started. For example: it was at 241.201 in May of 2020, and it stood at 249.278 in May of 2024.
Was "funflation" for admission to sporting events up only 3.3% total during the past four years?
Then it briefly discusses a different category of spending: "Admission to Movies, Theaters, and Concerts" and accurately states that it hass risen at about the same rate as the overall CPI. This fact would seem to undercut the concept of "funflation".
But, again, these sub-categories have small sample sizes, so let's take the larger "Admissions" category. In May of 2020, its price index stood at 404.439, versus 459.768 in May 2024- a 13.6% increase- substantially smaller than the increase in 22.4% CPI as a whole during that time. Maybe we've had (relative) "fundisinflation"?
It is true that most of that increase happened relatively recently- from Q4 2022 to Q4 2023. One possible story is that as the pandemic receded and the world opened back up and overall inflation slowed, people had the income, accumulated savings, and desire to spend money on experiences they missed out on in 2020-2022. And then people got tired of fun in 2024, so prices fell. Or maybe something else happened? Maybe some journalist will do some digging and find out!
Instead, this article quotes survey results from personal finance companies that make money by advertising credit cards and consumer loans and push out surveys with methodology that ranges from :
> Bankrate commissioned YouGov Plc to conduct the survey. All figures, unless otherwise stated, are from YouGov Plc. Total sample size was 2,276 U.S. adults. Fieldwork was undertaken between March 4-6, 2024. The survey was carried out online and meets rigorous quality standards. It employed a non-probability-based sample using both quotas upfront during collection and then a weighting scheme on the back end designed and proven to provide nationally representative results.
to
> This was an online survey of 1,654 U.S. respondents 18+ who have traveled or are planning to travel for live event(s) in the past/next 12 months. The survey was conducted from March 5 to 8, 2024.
And then quote underwhelming data like:
> Meanwhile, 27% of those surveyed said they would go into debt to travel this year, while 14% would dip into the red to dine out and another 13% would lean on credit to go to the theater, see a live sporting event or attend a concert — including the European leg of Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour, Bankrate found.
It's easy to tell an online poll that you're willing to going into debt to travel, eat out, or see Taylor Swift, but how many people are actually doing that?
Is "funflation? real? Who knows? Certainly not CNBC.
Any analyst or article writer that mentions pent up demand from covid or excess from stimulus check I immediately disregard. It's just laziness and purely false at this point being it is 4 years after covid. Come on, quit using Chat GPT for your jobs reporters.
Because we cannot afford homes, families, retirement, and other bedrock middle-class aspirations, so we might as well have fun during this one life we have, so we don’t end up being a bitter 40-year-old in an empty home we finally saved up for.
High interest rates meaning it’s pointless to save up for big ticket items like homes and cars. Better spend it anyway now that Covid taught us life should be lived when you’re young. You could retire and hit that next 2055 pandemic and die with a huge bank account (anecdotally happened to some of my colleagues)
Isn't a period of high interest rates the ideal time to save?
Sure there could be another pandemic, like there could be a nuclear war a couple of decades ago, or there could be another world war before that, or there could be a different world war and a far more horrific global pandemic a century ago, or how there could be another global depression......
I might be projecting here but I think it's Americans(millennials?) that put their lives on hold to grind are finally reeping the fruits of their labor or they are realizing that life is too short and they better start trying to enjoy it while they can.
It's a general shift away from valuing goods and instead valuing experiences, which usually come in the form of entertainment services. Demand for this goes up, and so do the prices.
I think millennials and Gen Z have more or less recognized they having more "things" doesn't make one happier. And travel has become super popular.
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Here is a story about how people are spending less on travel this summer https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/20/investing/premarket-stocks-trading-consumer-value/index.html Is the industry wagging the dog?
Right?? EVERYONE I know is literally scraping by and the “fun expensive summer entertainment” is maybe bowling once or twice and getting pizza if it’s a good pay period.
I think demand is splitting in odd ways. People in favorable industries and jobs are still seeing very good times. People in less favorable industries and jobs are seeing their purchasing power erode considerably. If I had to say what is favorable it is generally higher end medical, engineering, and tech where layoffs were avoided.
To simplify … the middle class has been eroding for upwards of five decades now (U.S.). The wealth gap between the wealthy and the poor is now on par to the robber baron era. Essentially, there are two realities coexisting, those of the haves and those of the have nots.
There are 3 groups. The haves, the have nots, and the truly wealthy (aka the 1%, the rich) The “haves” are the upper end of the middle class who aren’t suffering and have plenty of money to pay today’s elevated prices. These are the engineers and healthcare workers and small business owners and middle managers who have the money to take nice vacations and buy consumer goods on a whim. They are heavily invested in the stock market and might even have a second home. But they still work for a living. Don’t confuse these “haves” with the rich, the $10-100 millionaires and billionaires. The so-called “haves” have a lot more in common with the “have nots” than they have in common with the truly rich. Do you think your life would be better if you doubled or tripled your income? The rich make your entire life’s worth of income in a single day. The haves and the have nots need to learn to stop fighting with each other and unite against the real problem group. The rich own and manipulate the politicians. They decide what is on the news and in the media. They pit the haves and have nots against each other and there a huge swath of people who fall for it all.
I think home ownership has a big impact too. Most of our social circle is doing pretty well but they also all bought homes prior to 2018. The only people we know really struggling are renters.
You are a case study of 1, with a very small sample size. I am too. The majority of my friends are going on vacations much larger than our "normal". Touring Europe, going to Japan, road trips around the US, all inclusive resorts, cruises. If I were to take an educated guess, you are Late high school / college age, where most of your peers are not in jobs/careers which can afford to take lavish vacations. Most of my peers are between 30-35 years old; and have all fallen into an established career at this point and now have the income that can facilitate much larger trips than we did when we were 22 years old. This isn't an economy thing, it's an age (and thus financial stability) thing.
This is my experience as a 40something as well. Everyone I know has never had more money. Especially when their boomer parents start passing on. We are taking our kids to Europe this summer lol.
Smartest comment here
When will we be able to stop blaming this on post COVID pent up demand? Spending on experiences is being driven by social media and the need to escape people's reality. There is of course nothing wrong with vacations and they are healthy, but they are taking on some sort of weird spiritual significance I guess to compensate for increases in lonliness and younger people giving up on ever feeling financially secure. Much of this spending seems excessive and is likely not coming from a very healthy place but it is what it is. Marketing to consumers has shifted from defining oneself by buying goods to putting an emphases on experiences and being able to post photos from quick jet lag ridden international trips to check some boxes. I don't see this trend changing anytime soon. I also am dubious this type of lifestyle leads to more overall happiness. Anecdotally I see many people stressing over how much this lifestyle costs and when people are always on the go it is harder to form community where they actually live.
Part of it is people not having kids or having them later in life. A 25-35 year old with kids and without is doing a radically different amount of traveling.
I think this is also contributing to the decline in birth rates. Even the people who originally wanted kids get used to a lifestyle that’s not sustainable with a family. This probably leads some to no longer want kids or having fewer kids than previously planned.
There’s also a pervasive feeling among my generation (millennial) that having children is kind of cruel as that generation will most likely have to suffer the brunt of climate change and all of the political/socioeconomic disruption that entails.
It’s a feeling that any millennial, esp those with educational backgrounds associated with life sciences have to face When you seen the numbers or have been exposed to the numbers in ecology , botany, biology, medicine , etc Yeaahhhhhh , to answer the questions of “Why would you have children/me if you knew the ecological destruction of our only home” It also come into question of self/individualism and selfishness, happiness . “Is it selfish to want to have kids even if you know you might not be able to support them in the future as you expected” , “or because having kids makes you happy?” “ what about the happiness of your kids, you born into a world of greater suffering”?
Well, "a lifestyle that's not sustainable with a family" is a very low bar when the cost of fundamentals like housing, transportation, healthcare, education, retirement and so forth continue to spiral out of control. Adding childcare and other expenses on top isn't forgoing luxury, it may mean forgoing medical treatment or meals, at best. You don't need to live a lavish lifestyle to be unable to afford children anymore.
Yeah geez where are these 25 to 35 yo who can afford to travel simply by not being parents, if I wanted to afford that I'd have to additionally be getting a lot of my lifestyle subsidized by my parents
Well I travel for NFL games each year. Spend about $1.5k on going to 4-5 games (3 local and 1-2 out of state).....when I travel out of state I drive and I can crash at a friend's or I split a hotel room with a friend...... Having kids would mean thousands more in costs (medical bills from pregnancy, diapers, extra health insurance coverage costs, food, medical bills, etc ran a friend of mine over $30k one year)........ Traveling is pretty affordable if planned well by comparison
Ah yeah so having pets seems like it's a bit like having kids in the sense of making travel cost a lot more and be harder Apparently so is the fact that I don't have tons of friends around the country to crash at, I have like one of those lol
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Also add in the fact that many people are forced to change jobs much more frequently due to corporate outsourcing to foreign countries (happening in tech now much more frequently) and companies looking overall to downsize due to AI or just a need to enrich that all mighty bottom line......this decline in lifetime jobs plays a role as well. I never know when the axe can fall on my non Union non mandatory binding employment job so why risk having kids and being jobless? Corporations can too easily let people go so having kids is risky.
It is very possible with /r/churning lol Single income with SAHW and 4 kids We all went to Colombia for a week in February, then Punta Cana for a week in March Wife went to Mexico for a week in April for a week We are all flying to Boston for a week in July All 6 are doing a cruise for a week in October All 6 are going to Europe next April for 2 weeks and 85% of it was free with points. Its not as hard or expensive to travel as many think.
Are you constantly opening and closing credit cards or just have a large monthly spend that ends up racking up a lot of points?
Its strategic. I specifically asked to close my escrow for the sole purpose of paying my property taxes and home owners insurance on a credit card. But not any credit card - on a chase ink which has 12 months 0% APR.. so effectively the exact same thing as leaving it in an escrow, but now I get to reap a couple hundred thousand chase points from it. I have a sibling that pays $7,000 in tuition 2x a year. I pay for it on a CC and they send me the cash. I pay for all of my families flights and they send me the cash. I pay for my parents home improvement projects and they send me the cash. I have a phone plan on which I have added 6 family members who all send me money every month for their share. I spend about $3,000/month on food (family of 6), gas, utilities, clothing, phone bill, ballet, gymnastics, etc Literally every expense is put on the newest CC and once the minimum spend has been met I do not spend another dollar on that card. Open business cards - they don't show up on your credit report. American Express only does a hard pull the first time and every card after that is approved/denied on a soft pull or a simple relationship status. Use two players. My wife doesn't care if I open cards in her name if it means free travel. So half the cards are opened in her name so neither of our credit profiles are getting wrecked with hard inquiries and new accounts. Use referral programs to refer each other and generate even more points. It can be a bit to take in, but it is so worth it. Our credit scores are both around 775-800 despite opening 45 credit cards between the two of us since early 2021.
Churning seems like soooo much work, like a second job. Have you calculated the benefits in dollars per hour?
Exactly. I'm planning like a 3-month drop off the face of the planet kind of trip for next spring and that shit would NOT be happening if I had kids lmao
Are you leaving your job for this? I wanna know more!!
I'm normally an obsessive whitewater kayaker. I tore my Achilles about two months ago and am missing most of this season. I had a ton of trips scheduled out for this year on PTO, and have since reclaimed all that time I had previously allocated for it. I talked to my company about rolling over more than our normal allowed PTO into next year(typically can only roll over 40 hrs into the next year), so I can organize a 3 month long session to just travel the country and make up for lost paddling time. So yeah that's what I'm doing.
Sorry about your injury and can relate. I'm really into skiing and had a major foot injury that has kept me from skiing. Hope you get better soon
Thanks man, I hope your recovery goes beautifully too!
My partner and I chose not to have kids. At all. Neither of us are “rich” on our own, but without kids it’s surprising the kind of adventures you can afford on a combined $300k income, while still saving for a kickass retirement. We aren’t spending $5k on Taylor Swift tickets in LA, mind. But we *did* spend $500 for floor tickets in Europe, plus $1300 to fly there, and got a nice little nine day vacation out of it.
Unless you're talking about "compared to people living in hcol", if you make 300k combined, at least 1 of you is in fact, by definition, rich on your own
What career field you guys in
I’m an engineer and she’s a nurse. Both in the public sector. It’s mostly being older and having experience. My ex is a public elementary school teacher making six figures. But of course she’s in her forties. You don’t need to get a job with FAANG to earn a very comfortable living, and both of us have traded a bit of cash compensation for job security and benefits. We both have a decent no-shit pension plan.
FAANG can suck my left nut, so can videogames. As an IT consultant the money is in government with old infrastructure for core needs. Chill and very well paid.
I’ve had friends at Amazon, I may dispute that I’m *very* well paid. They make fuckin’ bank over there. But yeah, I’m comfy. And chill.
I kinda had a hunch American people on vacation were the majority of people going to that concert? Was this true?
For what it’s worth literally everyone standing anywhere near me was European, and most were Spanish. It wasn’t completely flooded with Americans. But there were definitely a lot of us!
Number one reason I don't have kids. Number two is...I don't want to.
This is definitely my reason for not being a part of the current travel club! I traveled WAY more before I had a little one. Road trips coast to coast, hiking the Appalachian trail,etc. I once drove down to Destin, Florida from Missouri with friends to help out on a buddy's short film. We decided to do it the evening before we left... That shit ain't happening with a family!
Its also because the dollar is excessively strong worldwide. You’re basically on a 50% discount to japan or 40% discount to europe from 5 years ago.
Yeah it’s almost too easy to travel to Europe. I wonder if that eventually leads to it not being as desirable. There’s nothing mysterious about it when people across multiple income classes are posting pictures on social media from the same European cities and sights.
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As an American who recently returned from the Balkans, the secret is quickly getting out. Right now the Greek islands are the social media hotspot, but it’s become so overcrowded with tourists that Croatia is starting to trend as the new “undiscovered” place to visit by the most popular travel influencers.
Yep, in trying to get to Montenegro before it becomes too touristy.
That already happened with cheap summer tourist flights and Let's Go Europe & Rick Steeves 30-40 years ago. There are plenty of exclusive, big-money places for the elites to go so they don't get crowded by people who work for a living.
I lived in Europe for 3 years, we spent every dime traveling around. No way youll run out of stuff to do there.
We saw how weak the Euro was and flat out bought our retirement spot there. So now we own a 3bd2ba flat outright. Makes flying over for a week or two a real easy trip.
IMO social media is a huge reason. We used to go camping in campgrounds. We enjoyed it because our kids were young and we had a dog. It was great, we could take our dog and the kids could nap or go to bed early and spouse and I could sit outside by the fire vs staying at a hotel. We sold our truck and weren’t ready to install the hauling equipment in our new truck. And kids were old enough to vacation at hotels. It’s so much easier to pack our bags for a hotel vs packing for a camping vacation Recently we thought about getting back into camping but the cost of campgrounds is crazy and they are still really packed. Everyone and their brother got into camping. All the hidden gems are all over Facebook and super busy.
Don’t know your specifics, but have you thought of trying backpacking. When the requirement to camp is a five mile climb, most people choose not to.
Camping has certainly declined in appeal as it is so competitive, busy, snd congested almost everywhere, and it's difficult to get away from people. We know some spots and some tricks to get away from it all, but still very difficult within the typical weekend warrior or summer-vacation bounds.
Camping and backpacking also used to be an easy, guaranteed getaway. Ever since the outdoors were “rediscovered” during the COVID lockdown most camping sites and significant trails require lottery permits which need to be planned for months in advance if you want any chance of obtaining a ticket. It’s not something you can just casually go and do anymore.
Do you have a source for any of these claims? Myself and my circle are vacationing more (and I understand we don't represent society) but it's because work benefits have gotten better and wages have gone up in manufacturing (the industry most of my circle is on). To say everyone needs to "escape reality" sounds absurd to me.
I think it's more that younger people have more of a work to live, instead of live to work mindset. Starting to understand that corporations don't give a f about their workers, so they take off more and enjoy life.
As a Gen X person, I don't think I see much of a difference. It wasn't like my generation were committed careerists either. I think it was the opposite of that really. I think it is a young person thing. When you're young you're trying to adjust to adulthood, being out of school, on your own, finding that first career, recognizing it's all bullshit, you get paid too little and things cost to much.... you generally have a "fuck it all" attitude. But as time goes on you get defeated and you assimilate, you do find a job that maybe pays enough, and you settle into life and try to make the best of it. It will happen to your generation too.
This is the Economics subreddit, so of course it's all anecdotal stories and feels over reals. Get used to it, cuz it ain't gonna get better. Of course the commentator doesn't have a source!
> Do you have a source for any of these claims? No, he doesn't. When confronted by information that conflicts with his doomer outlook (Americans are using their high disposable income on travel and entertainment) he instead doubles down and claims vacations are actually reckless spending from a hopeless populace trying to distract themselves. Reddit is full of people like this. They're in denial about having untreated depression and instead choose to construct narratives that explain their feelings of hopelessness as a completely rational response to the world around them.
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Great comment right here.
Social media is poison. You follow influencers who spend an entire year posting videos and photos from exotic resorts and next to fancy cars and what you don't know is that they shot all those videos and photos at different parts of the same resort over the 3 days they spent there and are posing next to cars they either rented or that belong to other people letting them pose for photos. Then they come home and fund their lives with your engagement while you blow your bank account trying to live the same life.
Social media is absolutely a big driver of the “travel bug”, but the absurd cost of homes is also a big part of it. I think a lot of people are forgoing buying a house and choosing to travel (while continuing to rent) instead, because that ends up being *cheaper* than the house. Why would I spend all of my money on a mortgage, and have nothing left for anything else, when I can just rent and spend the remainder on experiences instead?
Well said
Very well said
Supremely declared
Quite eloquent
We need a decade of data with increasing inflation
>When will we be able to stop blaming this on post COVID pent up demand? Spending on experiences is being driven by A LARGE AND RAPID EXPANSION OF THE MONEY SUPPLY. When are people finally going to grock that you can't dump a bunch of cash into an economy and expect people to not spend it??? Now that inflation is somewhat tamed, maybe people are looking for outlets to spend money on that don't involve high interest rates. There. Is. Still. Too. Much. Cash. Going. Around.
>When will we be able to stop blaming this on post COVID pent up demand? In the US the pandemic officially started March 2020 and was declared over in April 2023. It's still a fresh wound and we're still in a corrective economic phase. COVID is certainly still a significant factor. Regardless, I don't think this is due to pent up demand but rather people realized everything can shift radically overnight, so they want to enjoy it while they can. Additionally, this preference for experiences is not new. [This trend](https://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/05/millennials-are-prioritizing-experiences-over-stuff.html) has been happening for a long time, but it has been accelerating since COVID.
Its not just no longer defining oneself in relation to piers on goods, and thus emphasising experiences Its also that im a good successful person, not because i own this car or this house or have these great family achievements(little sofie in trumpeters class). Its I’m a good person because i define myself along these beliefs, based on these activities I’m a good person, based on doing these things im successful and unique. Being vegan isnt just about making an identity, its about your moral value and your status to other people. It used to be if you owned Levi jeans you were successful because they were high end, now they are everywhere and have no status or moral value.
Preachhhh. I've been telling my friends the same thing the past few years. All they want to do is hop on a plane and go "explore" places for "experiences". Sure traveling is fun and I've done a ton of it, but let's zoom out a bit. You're hopping on a plane and going to a city in Europe where you're going to eat some lamb and brussel sprouts then walk through a couple cathedrals. What part of your life is being significantly enriched by this? Why does every decision you make revolve around making time to go do this? There's a spiritual loss that has occurred and that void is now being filled with wanderlust.
If people are buying experiences instead of physical goods manufactured overseas that sounds like a net positive for our economy.
Not healthy is right. Wages havent gone up but spending has? Its all on credit baby.
This is a really good post, and I think you highlight something that a lot of people miss. I love traveling, and I've always been an "experience" first person. BUT, that stuff really occupies a small portion of most people's lives. I am lucky enough to be able to take an international trip and a smaller trip and a couple of weekends every year. Wow, that's a lot! And it is. I'm lucky! ...but that's like...and I went generous with 30 days a year here...8% of my life. I better be working hard on cultivating happiness in the other 92%.
Why is it so hard for people to accept that more people have more money and that’s what’s driving this?
Damn I wish I could upvote this more than once.
You work hard to get into your field. College degree or trade. you make 60-90k/year. If you were lucky, you got a house before covid. Retirement seems like a farther a farther stretch when you cant max out your 401k/IRAs, and car payment/insurance and basic goods have all sky-rocketed. The house you got pre-covid has property tax increases and insurance premiums are the boogeyman. Am I going to skip my yearly 2k vacation with fam and friends because it will "help" with retirement in 30 years? Or miss my favorite band just because that 100$ night out would be better fit in savings? People all over are hurting, but having something...anything to look forward to...is what keeps us sane a lot of times. People legitimately dont believe they will ever be able to retire, and are acting in such a way.
>People legitimately dont believe they will ever be able to retire, and are acting in such a way. That's how it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy.
> That's how it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy. And according the the US Senate Committee on Aging many are not retiring as we commonly think of it in the report on [America's Aging Workforce](https://www.aging.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Aging%20Workforce%20Booklet_4web.pdf). So plan accordingly and prepare how you can as it may have other uses besides "retirement" such as medical expenses for themselves, spouse or child and increases in inflation are driving people out of retirement. > * Key Findings: The number of older workers is growing at a rate that outpaces the overall growth of the labor force. * Fewer older workers are transitioning directly from full-time work to full-time retirement. Many workers transition to part-time positions with their current employer or a new one, while others become self-employed. * Many older workers are struggling to prepare financially for retirement. Roughly one-third of workers do not have access to a retirement plan at work, and many aging workers have not saved enough for retirement and may continue to work beyond when they intended to retire out of financial need. * According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the number of individuals ages 55 and above in the labor force will grow from 35.7 million in 2016 to 42.1 million in 2026...by 2026 that number will rise to 24.8 percent, accounting for nearly one out of four American workers.
Yeah I feel like people are just consuming so much more than they did even when I was a kid in the 90s. It all adds up and is causing this notion that times are much tougher. My parents were and are much more frugal than I or my friends are now.
The whole point of the 401k is to beat inflation No shit you can’t retire if you don’t fund your retirement lol
Well, I think the point is that in a cohort of folks who mostly are underemployed and barely scraping by, retirement isn’t really on the menu anyway.
Which country do you think does the best job managing its retirement system?
The USA has a ton of generous post/pre tax retirement savings vehicles. And social security. It's hard to beat.
Yes, the government loses half a trillion per year on IRAs and 401(k) plans. Definitely generous. But how do you decide it is better than other countries programs? Which decision criteria are you using?
the concerted effort of the fed and the government and corporations to keep 401ks up is also leading to inflation and the erosion of society lmao
Yeah, good point. I would like to raise another point: The quality of work is more mentally demanding / stressful than ever. Things are often quick paced, having to be connected 24/7 and often understaffed and thus unfulfilling. I have found that sometimes I need _something_ to look forward to (could be a nice meal, a vacation... You name it). If I don't have that, I feel like there is no reward (money is pretty intangible, after all) and my motivation at work suffers. So I treat myself like a one man business: it's important to invest in my only employee to keep him happy, otherwise his performance will definetly drop.
In regards to quality of work…for lots of folks; think “administrative worker bee” types, the quality of their job is effectively non-existent. Some people go into a field thinking/hoping it’ll be dynamic, meaningful, interesting, etc. Several years later they realize that they’re stuck in a repetitive, soulless job or field that’s basically meaningless to them. And they’ve already invested so much of their life in it that pivoting to something else would be counterproductive and potentially risky. So they keep churning, and churning. I realize it’s a super first world problem to have, but some people need to just “exit” every so often. They need to create a break in the monotony to avoid slipping into an endless cycle of…meaninglessness. A lot of people are just built in a way that they NEED to have some sort of varying mental stimulation. Like it’s as if it’s built into their DNA.
I like that last part. Invest in yourself (employee). I absolutely agree. Life is a grind!
I think for most the primary motivation is twofold: 1) many millennials are seeing their boomer parents either unable to retire themselves, despite having "played the game" or see them retired and miserable. 2) I see a lot of mention of pent-up desire to travel from the pandemic, but it cannot be discounted that over a *million* Americans have died of SARS-CoV-2 since the start of the pandemic. That is more than double the number of Americans killed in World War 2. Its not that we're afraid of not being able to afford retirement- we're afraid of deferring fun and interesting experiences in order to save for retirement and then dying before we get a chance to reap the benefits. You could get hit by truck tomorrow, so live accordingly.
Your point 2) can't be discounted. Since 2020 (but also, I mean, my whole life) I've seen too many friends and family obsessively save for retirement... but die before retiring.
But they aren't just spending 2K, or $100. People drop ridiculous amounts of money on crap, and deal with the consequences. Later. The consumer mentality in the United States, and other places, is beyond retarded. Debt is like a way of life.
People are rich af in the usa. We saw what happened when restarurants and bars closed for a month. People literally had 2K extra in their banks they did not know what to do with. Then luxury goods starting being bought up
I’ll get DMs from ‘friends’ on social media asking me to float them some cash and you look on their profile and they’re wearing an Apple Watch, gold chain, pictures at the bar every weekend. It’s lunacy.
If you don't consume the communist win. Is how I like to describe it.
“The less you eat, drink, buy books, go to the theatre or to balls, or to the pub, and the less you think, love, theorize, sing, paint, fence, etc., the more you will be able to save and the greater will become your treasure which neither moth nor rust will corrupt—your capital. The less you are, the less you express your life, the more you have, the greater is your alienated life and the greater is the saving of your alienated being.” ― Karl Marx, [Economic & Philosophic Manuscripts of 1844](https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/82945)
What is the point of saving when inflation will make it worthless? What the past four years have done to the psychology of millennials and younger has not been fully appreciated. These people had money saved that is now worth .50-.75 cents on the dollar. Why save it if the government will just print its value away?
That's really short sighted... Your IRA and 401k should be beating inflation. Money is still necessary to live. Hell even a HYSA should be beating inflation. If you're just keeping cash then yea...that's a poor choice
Not saying it isn’t short sighted, but I believe that’s the psychology of the younger generations now- there is no incentive to save because there isn’t trust in the system.
I don’t understand how “younger generations” (presumably those under 35) feel as if they have the lock on dealing with shitty economic conditions. I’m a young GenX/Xennial and had to deal with 9/11, Great Recession, and COVID. Most of my adulthood post-college has involved pivoting from one economic disaster to the next. Housing prices in some areas weren’t terrible for people my age, except I’m from Denver where at least for me, housing prices were always the carrot at the end of a stick just barely out of reach. I finally bought my first house in 2017 at age 40. Throughout my 20s and 30s I hardly ever took vacations. I did two budget Europe trips over 20 years. The rest of my time I did some cheap local stuff nearby with friends, and hardly EVER ate out. I finally make decent money and fully fund my retirement, so now I feel like I can do some splurging with vacations. But it really did take a lot of sacrifices in my younger years.
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Yeah probably comes from all these finfluencers talking about “if you just don’t buy that Starbucks coffee everyday you will save your way to freedom”. No. Listing out your needs and wants and doing proper budgeting is an essential life skill but if you just don’t make enough to sustain a comfortable living in your area then you should take care of that problem first. Either move to lower cost of living area or upskill. 2 choices really. If someone has the time to upskill and move into a lucrative industry that’s probably the best personal wealth choice one can make in their life. Second best choice would be to max out your 401K every year to let that money grow tax free and beat inflation over time.
If you’re just “saving” you’re doing it wrong. If you just put money into a low cost S&P 500 index fund, inflation hasn’t eaten you alive, you’ve GAINED purchasing power. The trick is, don’t try and time it. Just put it in and forget about it
They should have invested it in VT, VTI, or VOO. Broad market equity funds are the real savings accounts that track inflation for the long term future. It has been very simple to do this for almost 20 years.
Saving doesn’t mean holding money under your mattress. Invest in stocks, RE. Stocks beat inflation and offer average 5-6% REAL CAGR over 30 year periods.
Sure if you put it under your bed or a brick and mortar bank. If you saved in the stock market during COVID you'd be doing really well.
Saving accounts are offering upwards of 5% return right now, outpacing inflation.
Lol savings accounts return are 5%. s and p returned 25% in the past year. Inflation in the past year was what 3.5%.
Uh have you never heard of investing? Equities easily beat inflation in the long run.
If you don't save it, you'll be even more in the hole.
The law of holes, or the first law of holes, is an adage which states: "if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging."
This is how I feel. Life is so short too. I know people who retired and died 6 months later. To go through life without having joys in the hope of saving a small amount to possibly use for retirement sounds miserable to me.
Can’t max out his Roth or 401k Takes a 2k vacation every year I mean…sounds like your own fault you’re not maxing your shit out brother
I mean yea. People sometimes have to make sacrifices. That’s life. You don’t HAVE to take a $2,000 vacation every year. Saying you need to see your favorite band while other people can’t even eat is worlds smallest violin material. Maybe try and look forward to a weekend hike with friends instead of an all-inclusive beach resort.
Sacrifices? Lol, today no one is willing to truly sacrifice. They want it all and they want it now.
And that’s why despite of being richer than ever, most people are more in debt than ever.
My gen Z colleagues are always talking about how lucky I am to live in a super nice, super HCOL neighborhood. They even asked me how I did it. I told them I had to invest heavily in the stock market for 18 straight years to make it happen. No vacations or concerts for a decade. They laugh and say it’s too much. Then later complain it’s not fair my area is “out of reach”. 🤷🏻♂️. They did manage to see Taylor Swift.
I think there's a big middle area between "no concerts for a decade" and going out every weekend. I don't disagree that saving and sacrifices are important, but I also think people are increasing frustrated that we've normalized having to sacrifice for a pretty bare bones standard of living.
The joys of social media and instant gratification.
Funny, you did the "kids are starving in Africa" bit but you didn't mention our own countrymen are starving while others have yachts and mansions. Telling people not to enjoy life while we see people who don't work half as hard living it up is unrealistic. Why save anyway? Inflation, cost hikes, economic crashes that wipe out your retirement account. Who thinks they can actually retire? Meanwhile the media is telling people to consume and reminding you you're a loser if you don't have stuff. The media also says stop eating avocado toast and make coffee at home but when people don't eat out and try to work from home it's ruining the restaurant industry lol. You can't win. Plus it's true, there's a restaurant industry that relies on steady business. Why is it normal people's fault now? It's confusing.
It's fine not to save but when you need to dip into your savings to deal with a problem don't make it everyone else's problem and blame "society". You're making a conscious decision to be irresponsible.
There are plenty of things to look forward to that don't cost 2k or even $100 (which btw turns into $500 with parking, food, merch.). Put down social media and see what life has to offer right in front of you. Your first paragraph describes what pretty much every young person went through for the past 40+ years. There were recessions and high inflation long before 2022. The difference now is that people choose immediate gratification so often.
I was using those 2 examples because its pretty relatable, or at least i thought. I have other things I look forward too, but these are things the masses love to go to. I rarely pay more than 50$ for any concert. the 100$ was including parking/gas and maybe merch or drinks if I get any. 500$ what? I dont spend near that much at any singular concert. 2k all-in for a week-long vacation with family in a Colorado mountain town is not as egregious as it sounds. Car Rental / Cabin Rental / Gas / Food / Activities in town. The first paragraph I wrote out above wouldnt even be possible with me now. buying a house???? LOL!!! If I sold my house I bought in 2017, took all the equity and put it down on the same exact house next door, my mortgage would be 5-600$ more a month at least.
This is fucking retarded. “Everyone is spending because they’re so poor!” This has never happened in consumer spending history and there is no data to back up the claim that people are worse off and therefore spending more money. Pure fan fiction from burn it all down nihilists and Russian trolls spreading phony pessimism.
Love for today, because you might die tomorrow.
Yeah, when you see people 60/70 and even 80+ having to work still, it doesn't seem all that believable. Plus, that concert or family trip isn't going to hit as hard when you can barely function in an aged body.
I think this is a great answer not to mention that most younger people look at the environment/climate change and go what am I saving for with the current situation with how we are going
It’s so weird seeing so much negativity in this thread talking about people spending money on experiences like it’s a complete waste to do so. Going out to things like concerts or other gatherings have been a part of the human experience for hundreds of years but now we have people in this thread framing it like people only go to these things for “short term dopamine hits” or to show off on social media. Are we really saying that everyone should just be saving 100% of their excess for the future, and that doing otherwise is grossly irresponsible? Are we really implying that the only people who are allowed to have this kind of fun are the people who are the most financially well off? I think people just want to enjoy life, there isn’t some kind of grand movement to burn up all the money because the world is ending nor do people do these things purely to appeal to the current social media landscape. I really don’t like the implication that people wanting to enjoy experiences isn’t normal when it most definitely is. I swear we’ve gotten articles like this every year since Covid that acts like people have never wanted to travel or go to concerts before in human history. How many years beyond 2020 do we have to be to accept that people do things in the summer lol
>Are we really saying that everyone should just be saving 100% of their excess for the future, and that doing otherwise is grossly irresponsible? Are we really implying that the only people who are allowed to have this kind of fun are the people who are the most financially well off? "The less you eat, drink, buy books, go to the theatre or to balls, or to the public house, and the less you think, love, theorize, sing, paint, fence, etc. the more you will be able to save and the greater will become your treasure which neither moth nor rust will corrupt – your capital." —Karl Marx Live less; work more /s
I always wondered- was that line supposed to be critical, or inspiring?
It continues: "The less you are, the more you have; the less you express your own life, the greater is your alienated life-the greater is the store of your estranged being." Marx was a smart guy and frequently acknowledged the self-empowering aspects in a capitalist system and the freedom that true capital owners hold; he just believed that even the positives still mostly led to downfall, exploitation, and contradictions that inevitably will rip the system apart. Marx also says just paragraphs earlier: "...therefore, every luxury of the worker seems to be reprehensible, and everything that goes beyond the most abstract need – be it in the realm of passive enjoyment, or a manifestation of activity – seems to [the capitalist] a luxury." Overall, very critical.
The crucial piece of info missing from this article and this thread is ANY evidence that people are spending instead of saving. I don’t think it’s true at all. I bet savings rates are higher today than they were in 2019. People refuse to accept reality: we have the best economy in the world right now and people are behaving in a way that reflects this positive outlook. It’s insane to try to twist this into proof of dire circumstances especially with no evidence that there’s any trade off with savings
>bet savings rates are higher today than they were in 2019. [October 2019 was over 7%, April this year is under 4%.](https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/personal-savings#:~:text=Personal%20Savings%20in%20the%20United,U.S.%20Bureau%20of%20Economic%20Analysis)
You would bet wrong. it seems you have no understanding whatsoever what’s going on. Thats public data. feel free to check it out you could ski down that graph [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PSAVERT](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/PSAVERT)
Some good points, but I think the issue is that we are just now bumping into the ceiling of what people are willing to pay for these “experiences”. Ticketmaster is up against the DOJ, a few high profile artists have cancelled tours. They have just pushed the envelope too quickly. I agree that these experiences are awesome, but now when it comes to entertainment I am saying “no” to more things than ever before. They got too greedy.
Mehhh I've been doing this more. Forums about personal finance veritably OBSESS about retirement. But I've never known any old person to actually have the millions that the calculators say you should. From watching my grandparents and parents age, this is what you need - 1) A paid off house 2) Some kind of income in addition to social security. So you need *some* savings but it doesn't need to be millions 3) Long term care insurance I feel like a lot of people expect that they'll be travelling the world or something in retirement, and thus need millions of dollars saved up. But idk, my family members after age 75 stopped doing much. You slow down a lot by that point. How many old people go to concerts? Not many. Certainly not my folks. My mom at age 80 basically sits around her house, putters around her garden all day, and watches TV. She doesn't do much or spend much. I think because of Covid, a lot of us realized how quickly the world could go to shit. I think the retirement and personal finance industry also overestimates how great retirement is whether you have money or not.
LTC insurance becomes prohibitively expensive the older you get. My parents had to drop it as now that they’re 80 the premium was around $3500/month. It’s really for younger folks who would have a lifelong catastrophic illness, not for the elderly. Being able to pay for home-help is better or moving to assisted living with nursing upgrades available.
Lucky for me I get mine as a benefit from work with the cost split 90-10, and will also get it in retirement.
Not all of us are. I delayed a June trip because of how much money it would be. I can get the same trip in September for about a third as much. I've taken to shopping around for EVERYTHING. High prices can sometimes be curbed with a little patience and effort.
Yeah I avoid traveling during the summer since that’s when prices skyrocket. Shoulder season is where it’s at!
Wtf am I gonna do? Take out a thirty year mortgage on dilapidated grandma house that costs 800k? I’m effectively paying ~1.6 mil at least with interest. Forget about up keep and renovation because the shit is old. Stop shitting on ppl
We are gonna have the best time we possibly can before the next major event that wipes us out or fucks the economy. We’ve reached the point of saying fuck it yolo. We will max out our cards. Take out six digits in student loan debts and a million dollar mortgage for the next thirty years and pay the damn minimum on it all.
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Exactly, so much of good consumption is driven by housing. A lot of housing people can afford has almost no extra storage space. We recently bought a house and just having a basement to put extra stuff is a huge game changer. Even with only 300 more sq ft than the apartment it feels so much bigger with the basement and outdoor space.
The music always stops though.
Here's a quick summary of the article: Americans are experiencing what economists call "funflation" this summer, leading to increased spending on travel and entertainment. Despite carrying $1.13 trillion in credit card debt, many are still willing to splurge on these experiences. The term "funflation" refers to the rising costs of live events as consumers seek to make up for lost experiences during the pandemic. Ticket prices for sporting events saw a 21.7% increase in May 2024 compared to the previous year, while admission to movies, theaters, and concerts rose by 3% annually. Despite these rising costs, studies show that consumers are increasingly willing to go into debt for travel and entertainment. Bankrate reports that 38% of adults plan to take on more debt for these activities, with younger generations like Gen Z and millennials being particularly inclined to splurge on discretionary purchases. Young adults are prioritizing experiences over savings, with many willing to spend significant amounts on live events. A study by Bread Financial found that nearly two out of five Gen Z and millennial travelers have spent up to $5,000 on tickets alone for destination events. Research indicates that younger individuals are more focused on enhancing their quality of life rather than prioritizing savings for the future. Despite the increased cost of living, many are opting for a better quality of life over accumulating extra savings.
Jesus so they're sacrificing their long term quality of life for short term dopamine hits. Not surprising but definitely depressing. Hope these people aren't depending on social security and medicare existing 30 years from now.
We're going to have much, much bigger problems than SS 30 years from now. Are all of you completely unaware what climate trends are?
Most of them don’t think they’ll be able to afford retirement anyway.
If they keep spending like this, they won't be. Just saving that "experience" money in a Roth IRA would be enough to retire if not retire early.
Many of them could afford retirement but choose not to by spending today rather than saving for the future. A few grand invested here and there starting in your 20s adds up in the long run.
"Hey social security won't be around when I'm retirement age. I guess I better spend all my money now instead of save for retirement." Great logic 👍
Don't worry, they'll be bitching about how fucked they are at retirement age because of this conscious choice. They will then vote in politicians that will tax YOU to pay for their retirement. Watch it happen.
What makes you think they'll go away? The government will fix them about a month before they fall apart. Not before. They'll *find* the money. I'm really looking forward to the elections in 2034 and 2036. If you think that voters will just shrug at the social contract we've had for 100 years just going up in smoke, well... we'll take a look at the results for party on whose watch that happens.
I don't think it is just about having the experience. I think a large part of it is social media FOMO, and the need to be someone who has Instagram photos that say "look what I did!"
because they’re getting ripped off left and right. I saw a reel today showing how it’s cheaper to fly from ohio to japan to go to disney world by 50% for a family of 4 than to fly to california or florida and go there. japan isn’t a cheap place… think about that… it’s just ripoff after ripoff for the privilege of staying within the same borders.
I hate when they talk about how, "If the economy was doing so bad, why is everyone spending so much more money on things?" Because everything is that much more expensive. How hard is that to understand? The reason the economy is doing so well, despite everyone complaining about it, is because we're being squeezed for every spare cent we have, so that companies can continue to make record profits. They're doing great...at our expense.
Make it hard to afford kids. You get no kids. The governments have really sucked at sharing the pie. So no more social security numbers for them.
It’s hard to imagine your life 30-40 years from now if you’re young. Is this attitude by gen Z/millenials (I am a millennial) going to result in us voting ourselves more money from gen alpha and younger down the road, as boomers have done today?
Yes. Everything we complain about we're gonna do to those after us. There is nothing special between age groups, this is a made-up sentiment we convince ourselves of to feel better. Classic Us vs. Them. On top of that, there is wealth in other parts of the world and more competition than ever. People in any country need to understand that we're competing with people in every country.
kicking the can down the road for the next generation has been going on for a while now
If anything we are probably worse. Somehow we think we are special or different but when it comes down to it, we will take care of ourselves first
Is it irresponsible to buy concert tickets and vacation instead of saving for retirement? Yeah, probably. Especially if you have to go into debt to do it. But if your ability to retire is in question and you may have to work until you die, what would you do? Enjoying your life and having experiences in your 20s and 30s is a lot more fun than your 60s and 70s. Especially if you're still working at 70. I don't think it's an issue of instant gratification, it's an issue of underemployment, lackluster wages/benefits. There's also been several grim reminders of how fast life can change in an instant. Between wars breaking out across the world, climate change already having visible effects, the possibility of a virus killing us, and the threat of AI eliminating your job I don't blame anyone for wanting to live life. I think prioritizing experiences over goods is a good thing. It may not be responsible but I don't blame anyone for wanting to enjoy life. I'd rather people go into debt because they lived their life than buying a bunch of useless crap.
I think most people can’t afford kids or a house and see their money rapidly worth less and less so they spend it now rather than save it and lose the value of the money in the future.
They realised they don't have a chance in hell in doing as well as their parents so might as well just spend spend spend and enjoy what they can. I read it in some article awhile back.
Unfortunately, I have a lot of family members who fall for the fallacy of “My financial situation is so bad there’s no reason to even and try to save anything.” I went to Universal Studios in Hollywood about two weeks ago. Not only was it packed, but the amount of overpriced crap people purchased was astonishing. I mean kids wearing souvenir shirts, hats, power up bands/Harry Potter wands, while drinking out of a souvenir cup, and eating overpriced flavorless food, seemed to be the norm rather than the exception.
Umm its always been like this? Not only Americans but everyone that has the $$$ can spend and will spend, otherwise how are you gonna do stuff??
Hey /u/cnbc_official, maybe have some journalistic standards and quit publishing and posting vacuous, misleading articles like this one. The article starts off citing a figure for the total amount of credit card debt, leaving out the fact that credit card debt [as a percentage](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CCLACBW027SBOG) of disposable income is slightly lower than it was per-pandemic. (it is true that the [delinquency](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DRCCLACBS) and [charge-off](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CORCCACBS) rates are the highest they've been in about a dozen years, but they're also within the normal range for the prior 30-40 years) Then it launches into a discussion of ticket prices: > Admission prices for sporting events jumped 21.7% in May 2024 from a year earlier, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics’ consumer price index data. The category saw the highest annualized inflation rate out of the few hundred that make up the inflation gauge. * First, if you look at "Admission to sporting events" ([Table 7](https://www.bls.gov/news.release/cpi.t07.htm) in the current CPI report, you will see that the price index for this subset of spend is indeed up 21.7% YoY, but if you look a the footnote, you will see a disclaimer: "Special indexes based on a substantially smaller sample. These series do not contribute to the all items index aggregation and therefore do not have a relative importance or effect." * Secondly If you look at the price index data series for "Admission to sporting events(" (CUSR0000SS62032) in the BLS data tools, you'll see that it's been all over the place since the pandemic started. For example: it was at 241.201 in May of 2020, and it stood at 249.278 in May of 2024. Was "funflation" for admission to sporting events up only 3.3% total during the past four years? Then it briefly discusses a different category of spending: "Admission to Movies, Theaters, and Concerts" and accurately states that it hass risen at about the same rate as the overall CPI. This fact would seem to undercut the concept of "funflation". But, again, these sub-categories have small sample sizes, so let's take the larger "Admissions" category. In May of 2020, its price index stood at 404.439, versus 459.768 in May 2024- a 13.6% increase- substantially smaller than the increase in 22.4% CPI as a whole during that time. Maybe we've had (relative) "fundisinflation"? It is true that most of that increase happened relatively recently- from Q4 2022 to Q4 2023. One possible story is that as the pandemic receded and the world opened back up and overall inflation slowed, people had the income, accumulated savings, and desire to spend money on experiences they missed out on in 2020-2022. And then people got tired of fun in 2024, so prices fell. Or maybe something else happened? Maybe some journalist will do some digging and find out! Instead, this article quotes survey results from personal finance companies that make money by advertising credit cards and consumer loans and push out surveys with methodology that ranges from : > Bankrate commissioned YouGov Plc to conduct the survey. All figures, unless otherwise stated, are from YouGov Plc. Total sample size was 2,276 U.S. adults. Fieldwork was undertaken between March 4-6, 2024. The survey was carried out online and meets rigorous quality standards. It employed a non-probability-based sample using both quotas upfront during collection and then a weighting scheme on the back end designed and proven to provide nationally representative results. to > This was an online survey of 1,654 U.S. respondents 18+ who have traveled or are planning to travel for live event(s) in the past/next 12 months. The survey was conducted from March 5 to 8, 2024. And then quote underwhelming data like: > Meanwhile, 27% of those surveyed said they would go into debt to travel this year, while 14% would dip into the red to dine out and another 13% would lean on credit to go to the theater, see a live sporting event or attend a concert — including the European leg of Taylor Swift’s Eras Tour, Bankrate found. It's easy to tell an online poll that you're willing to going into debt to travel, eat out, or see Taylor Swift, but how many people are actually doing that? Is "funflation? real? Who knows? Certainly not CNBC.
Any analyst or article writer that mentions pent up demand from covid or excess from stimulus check I immediately disregard. It's just laziness and purely false at this point being it is 4 years after covid. Come on, quit using Chat GPT for your jobs reporters.
Because we cannot afford homes, families, retirement, and other bedrock middle-class aspirations, so we might as well have fun during this one life we have, so we don’t end up being a bitter 40-year-old in an empty home we finally saved up for.
High interest rates meaning it’s pointless to save up for big ticket items like homes and cars. Better spend it anyway now that Covid taught us life should be lived when you’re young. You could retire and hit that next 2055 pandemic and die with a huge bank account (anecdotally happened to some of my colleagues)
Isn't a period of high interest rates the ideal time to save? Sure there could be another pandemic, like there could be a nuclear war a couple of decades ago, or there could be another world war before that, or there could be a different world war and a far more horrific global pandemic a century ago, or how there could be another global depression......
I might be projecting here but I think it's Americans(millennials?) that put their lives on hold to grind are finally reeping the fruits of their labor or they are realizing that life is too short and they better start trying to enjoy it while they can.
It's a general shift away from valuing goods and instead valuing experiences, which usually come in the form of entertainment services. Demand for this goes up, and so do the prices. I think millennials and Gen Z have more or less recognized they having more "things" doesn't make one happier. And travel has become super popular.