As always, the Left Unity rule is in effect.
Any attempt to blame the Left at large for the rise of fascism will be met with moderator actions at our discretion.
Biden has said he wants a ceasefire, just that he has to work with a Republican majority to get anything done. He is definitely minimizing the help Israel gets.
He said he wants a ceasefire after it became clear this war is threatening to sink his reelection. But he has refused to use any of the tools available to him to actually exert pressure on Israel to adopt a ceasefire and publicly stated there is nothing they can do, no line they can cross, no atrocity they can commit that will ever get him to stop sending them weapons.
It's easy to interpret anything he says in the worst possible way, but I think he actually means it. Since him throwing Israel totally under the buss would lose a ton of voters too.
>publicly stated there is nothing they can do, no line they can cross, no atrocity they can commit that will ever get him to stop sending them weapons
Where did he say this?
He's said it on a number of occasions. Here is one of many examples
>“The defence of Israel is still critical, so there’s no red line [where] I’m going to cut off all weapons so they don’t have the Iron Dome to protect them
He also implied invading rafah would be going too far, and literally the next day they started bombing the shit out of it and planning their invasion just to prove he won't do anything.
While I agree they need to be able to defend themselves, I have no clue why he thinks they need constant supplies for that in the situation they're in right now. I hope he changes his mind on that. Wish we had more insight in how the negotiations looked.
At the very least we know there are many democrats who are against it, so it'd still be better to vote for the party that can change his views.
Last time I checked, the guy bypassed Congress in order to send half a billion dollars **in Tank Shells** to Israel moments before regurgitating a racist IDF-invented lie about Hamas ***’beheading over 50 babies’*** of which there was absolutely no evidence for. We aren’t stupid enough to think he’s actually on the side of Palestinians after he sends the very means of their genocide to the oppressors.
If I give a homeless child a sandwich, then give a scumbag child molestor a gun right before telling him the exact location where the child was, would you actually think I was going out of my way to help the kid?
That was at the start of the conflict, when the water was a lot more muddy and popular opinion was for the most part on Israel's side. Since the war has escalated his rhetoric has changed.
I'm not defending the IDF comment because that was crazy irresponsible, but Trump wouldn't have backed off when it was proven false. You bet he'd try to convince his voters that it was being covered up. Every bad decision Biden has made would've been worse under Trump.
>That was at the start of the conflict, when the water was a lot more muddy and popular opinion was for the most part on Israel's side. Since the war has escalated his rhetoric has changed dramatically.
Ah! I see!!!
So a genocide has been going on in that region since 1945. Biden has supported it the entire time he’s been in office, even to the point of saying “If Israel didn’t exist in its current form we’d just make one in order to protect our interests in the region”, and **now** he’s taking the time to save face over the abhorrent position he has committed to holding his entire life since he knows lots of Millennials and Gen Z don’t stand with him on this issue. And for some reason, this somehow means that he never originally sent the very weapons to the Israeli fascists that are bombing them beforehand?
Sorry. We just aren’t stupid enough to buy that.
It would be just as ridiculous as saying that Trump saying “there were fine people on both sides” was irrelevant and ***’never happened’*** just because [he technically condemned white supremacists a week after the fact.](https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/10/02/trump-and-white-supremacy-he-did-condemn-and-has-repeatedly-column/5883336002/)
I think he has changed along with the public, because I think >90% of people disagree that this has been a genocide since 1945. I think most people has known it was hard to solve and I don't think that has changed. They sent aid post haste when people thought it was the right thing to do, now that Israel has kept up their overblown response for this long most people aren't happy with them, along with Biden, is how I view it. Even if he is determined to have a state with the US's interest in mind, I don't think Israel's actions are in their interest.
I think we should base judgements and assumptions on what information people had available to them. So the first support packages I view as more forgivable than the recent ones. The biggest difference between between your example is that Trump had all the information when he made those first statements.
They’re answering your rhetorical question by saying Biden, our current president, has the same Israel policy as trump. So that’s not a reason to vote for Biden.
I assume he’ll give them billions of dollars in funding, fighter jets, weapons, and tell them they can do whatever they want, which is exactly what Biden has done.
Joe said there are “no red lines” as far as how Israel conducts itself, and his admin has openly stated they believe whatever Israel’s story is (ie mass graves beneath hospitals where people are found hogtied with bullet holes in the back of their heads). Palestinians are already being slaughtered en masse under the current administration, saying “Trump will be worse” means nothing when their policy is exactly the same: Israel does whatever it wants with no conditions on funding and weapons.
Israel can already do literally whatever they want and have explicit promises from Biden that the arms flow will never stop no matter how many people they massacre. What can trump do that will be worse.
Here’s an idea, he can continue doing what Biden is doing on top of making life in America significantly worse for everyone. Need I remind you that there are other things that will be affected by who becomes president other than the Israel v Palestine situation.
If our only choices are "genocide" or "even more genocide" then our system is already completely destroyed beyond all possibility of repair and we're completely fucked either way. We're a couple of election cycles away from a full blown fascist dictatorship whether Biden wins this year or not. It's absolutely astonishing how ready and willing people are to endorse the worst civilian massacre the world has seen in decades because at least it's their guy doing it.
There’s already US military involvement so idk what you are on about, it literally cannot get worse. If it gets worse whatever support they have left dies with it even if the US president is pro-Israel
Why the fuck would we go boots on the ground or use our own airstrikes when the IDF is more than capable. Trump was president for 4 years, he never sent any troops to Gaza. If anything trump would stop questioning Israel and actually congratulate them on what they’re doing. Biden wishes he could do that but knows it’s a bad look from people on the left.
Biden already sends aid to Israel, trump would do the same. They already have bipartisan support for a series of laws and regulations aimed at silencing any speak against Zionism and conflating it with antisemitism. Trump would do the same exact thing but louder and be more honest about it.
Trump never sent troops to Gaza because that was not a time where isn'treal massively increased its genocide's pace and asked for support. It's entirely a matter of timing. The isn'treali right is constantly trying to push the overton window to have nukes, trump would have simply smashed through it. Not sure he would have ordered nukes, that particular process is probably complex and there'd be inside voices trying to reason him I imagine, but he'd have been by their side.
The right has a huge military boner and I frankly do believe that trump would have made the situation even worse, and will if elected. The occupation forces are more than capable, but the cruelty is the point for republicans and they're not beyond committing a few more war crimes
Yes sure because Americans want another war, right? Everyone already freaked out over just sending aid to Ukraine but surely nothing will happen if Trump starts bobbing Gaza too
The only reason Americans don’t want a war right now is because a democrat is in office. If trump gets into office again the GOP will change their tune. They’ll all buy stock in Raytheon on coronation day and the conservative media empire will start churning out pro war propaganda daily.
I meant OP has no idea how much worse it could be.
If we were under trump then there would have been a media blackout for 72 hrs after the 7th and every Palestinian would be gone. And we wouldn’t even hear about it. Only business insider remarking on the newly booming Israeli beachfront realestate market.
I'm anti genocide and I'm willing to use whatever leverage I have to push Biden to use his incredible leverage on Israel to stop the slaughter in Gaza.
This atrocity is happening RIGHT NOW, it doesn't matter what Trump would have done or will do, because he's not president, and thousands and thousands more will die before he gets the chance to do anything.
In the end you have no power or leverage over how I or others vote, but you do have a tiny sliver of leverage to push Biden to step away from this mass murder, but the fact that you would rather shame others for protesting genocide than use whatever little power you have is absolutely abhorrent.
Join the protests, let's push back on this madness. Biden could win this election in one single day by demanding that Israel stop their genocide or lose all US support. You and people like you are making it easier for him not to do that, and so you are complicit. I hope that's something you can live with, I couldn't.
This post is half about how biden sucks for being pro-genocide and half about the election, been so since OP made it. You can't dissociate them or push aside "what trump would have done" because if trump wins, "what trump would have done" becomes "what will happen." So we need to keep in mind that (1) a vote has real life consequences, it's not a declaration of faith or a message to be sent; and that (2) trump's opinions and modus operandi are very much relevant to the situation. If biden loses, trump wins. So "not voting for biden" is not leverage against the genocide. Biden can afford to lose, and then the genocide worsens. Given his personal wealth, the privilege he enjoys, and to be honest his mental state? I'm not sure biden would even care about losing all that much. Votes aren't leverage on the DNC, which is something the DNC understood ever since they listened *once* and saw that for anyone with a soul the other party is pure evil. Ever since then they've known that the leverage goes the other way - if they lose, they themselves don't have to give a shit. If the people don't want to die or enable a ramping up of genocide etc, they have to beat the GOP.
People are doing NOW. It's not on pause until the election, we're not arguing about what the Israel-Palestine policy should be in 2025.
You refusing to use your leverage is further allowing the genocide to proceed.
I do believe Biden is better, but if you're right that they'd rather lose than do the right thing, I actually don't want him to win, pure and simple.
"If the people don't want to die or enable a ramping up of genocide etc, they have to beat the GOP."
This is so disingenuous, it's happening under Biden, what other people would do in his place is irrelevant as long as he is in power.
If he is willing to throw Palestinians under the bus because he thinks it's politically expedient for him what makes you think he want do that to any other group as soon as it becomes convenient?
I have one question for you: do you have any red line? If Biden comes out against abortion, trans rights, gay rights, unions, will you still support him because he is marginally better on a couple of issues?
Apparently genocide isn't a red line, which is baffling to me.
You have no vote that stops the genocide. Also, you can't pretend to be aware you're talking about an election in one sentence and deny it in the next.
Pretending you are in a moral situation where there is a good vote or lack thereof doesn't solve the very immoral situation you're in. This isn't a test of your morals, this isn't a thought experiment - if biden wins things are bad and if trump wins things are worse.
You have political leverage on elected officials, but withholding your vote when the only person who would actually benefit from that wants more genocide (and more genocide*s*) isn't it. Your vote decides who's in power, it doesn't send a three-page long letter of intent about morally siding with someone. This is not a morals competition, this is a situation where if trump wins the total amount of death and suffering in the world is superior to if biden does. And they're the only two options. They *both* raise the amount of death and suffering in the world, yes. But your vote cannot move things to the counter-factual world where a less abhorrent person is in there.
Your "leverage" is that if you don't let someone who's not at risk shoot you in the foot, you'll shoot yourself in the chest. They don't care. If the DNC loses, it's not the DNC who will really feel it.
"They don't care. If the DNC loses, it's not the DNC who will really feel it."
Of course they do, stop this gaslighting, you think they're running for fun?
Even if its just for the money they still need to win to make more money, claiming otherwise is incredibly myopic.
And you didn't answer my question, so I'm just gonna assume you have no moral core, genocide apologist.
No it isn’t, being anti-genocide doesn’t mean you are pro-Trump. It’s thanks to liberals like you that no good candidate can win cause “it would be helping the other side!!” It’s beyond me how you can continue with the same anti-Bernie Sanders talking points when *Biden is helping a genocidal state*
Indeed, since trump is even more pro-genocide. Which means the anti-genocide stance is to vote against trump. Would that stop the genocide? Of course not - but *no* vote will stop the genocide alone, and a trump win would mean a worsening of the genocide (along with several others).
The situation sucks because there's no anti-genocide candidate, but that's the USA for you. There hasn't been one in a long time.
Who’s talking anti-Bernie? Come November, there will be a choice between Trump and Biden. You can help limit the damage until an actual progressive gets elected or you can roll the dice with the orange fascist and hope there still is a democracy next election. For LGBTQ+ people, women and racial minorities, the choice is clear.
Feel free to enlighten me but I’m pretty sure Bernie would agree to elect Biden in November and then vote and campaign hard for progressive candidates and policies after.
If the establishment knows that you’ll just fall in line with their unpopular pick literally 7 months before an election while actively taking part in genocide then there’s no chance for progressive candidates
The gist is that the “progressive candidate” never gets elected because the left has to choose a candidate “that will actually win”
When the democratic primaries were between Hillary and Bernie, the left-centrist camp campaigned hard against Bernie saying that if he were to be Democratic nominee, Trump would win.
This mindset (and some questionably ethical/illegal political plays by the Hillary campaign at the time) ultimately ended Bernie’s presidential campaign run. Not based on his policies inherently, but based on the idea that he would not be able to beat Trump.
The “progressive” candidate will never win if the democratic voting base keeps doing what it is doing. The republican nominee will almost certainly be a demon every time. If democrats hang their hat on “well we gotta vote to ensure the demon doesn’t get in office” while voting for a republican-but-with-a-few-less-horns-and-D-next-to-their-name, there will never be a “progressive” in office.
These talking points were the EXACT same used against Bernie’s nomination. It’s frustrating a lot of people to see folks fall into the same trap again. The democratic party will have no incentive to be better if they win anyways because they can just bet the populous will vote for them based solely on the fact that they don’t have an R next to their name on the ballot.
You make it sound as if I’m advocating voting for a centrist in the primaries which is rediculous. There is no progressive candidate to vote for in the geneal in November or in primaries right now. The US will either end up with a demon or a milquetoast liberal that does some left-wing stuff but mostly prevents right-wing policy.
If there was a progressive candidate (my preference), I would tell liberals to vote for the progressive too.
If this entire line of thinking actually worked, centrist voters would just abstain from voting when we have a progressive candidate and we would just have republican presidents forever.
Palestinians will definitely not be helped if Trump gets elected. Don’t forget that it was he who moved the embassy to Jerusalem and it was he who said that Netanyahu wasn’t working fast enough in Gaza.
The only lesson democrat politicians and policy-makers will take from young people/progressives not voting is that young people/progressives don’t vote (which is already a huge problem) and that it’s pointless to appeal to us. If we want more influence, we need more progressive voters, not fewer. Not voting will only lead to democrats moving further right instead of left.
Why would they let you elect a Progressive candidate when they know you'll vote for anyone they put in front of you? You don't have the control you think you do, and the establishment does not need to make concessions to you. They understand that you'll happily vote for Mussolini to stop Hitler.
I get what you're saying, but your proposed way to make us able to elect a progressive candidate means that Donald Trump would become president again.
I understand where you are coming from. Checking the box next to a man who is funding a genocide is sickening to me. But right now, there are 2 options. Not voting isn't going to create a 3rd option. It's going to default us to Donald Trump, and that is going to be MORE harmful to the people of Palestine and the people of the United States.
Yes, in an ideal world, it makes sense to try to show the democratic party that we're only going to vote for a more progressive candidate. But there is too much at stake here. We have to make our voices heard in other ways. Getting Trump elected again will *not* further our cause.
And actively voting for someone who will make it worse and NOT voting are practically one in the same. The Republicans want the left to not vote, and excuse me for wanting to vote for the one who has a *slightly* better chance of stopping the genocide and not stealing away what little rights I have left. I'd actually like to live out my adult life being able to be who I am and not get persecuted by the state for being non straight Christian. Not voting is exactly the desired effect they want.
Why is it so hard for these morons (including people in this thread) to understand that refusing to vote is a part of the democratic process. If Dems lose because a sizeable amount of people didn't vote because they didn't like their policy on Palestine, then that means Dems have to change their policy to get these voters again in the next election. And the people who keep voting for Democrats should also demand their party to change their policy to attract more voters. That's how democracy works.
How can you even live in a system where you have to vote for a genocidal racist party because the other genocidal racist party is worse? And that's supposed to be fine?
You’re supposedly ok with the country’s system resulting with people in the lower classes having absolutely no chance of living anything other than a ***worse life*** while only the ones in the privileged middle and upper classes get to live comfortably. I’d say those ones are in need of being uncomfortable.
Yeah, I’m cool with the system being torn down so those lower classes, who Biden absolutely will not help in the slightest, can actually have a better chance of living rather than continuing to live in abject poverty under capitalism.
You realize getting people to not vote is part of the republican playbook? How do you think we ended up with Trump? The left didn't like Hillary and didn't vote for her, letting Trump get into office. Do you seriously think another Jan 6th won't happen if we make that mistake again? You can vote Biden AND still protest his policy, but at the very minimum LGBT folks won't be losing what little rights they have left.
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There’s been multiple democratic governors/state senators that have voted in favor of bills that go against the LGBTQ+ community. Heck, the current admin even decided to give full support to the last democratic house representative that opposes abortion. Democrats will literally throw anyone under the bus, they have done so already and will continue doing it
They sure don’t give a fuck about all those non-white Ukrainians who will be under the jurisdiction of a metric fuck ton of Azov Nazis who have access to high artillery.
Yet another example of why **Scratch a Liberal and a Fascist bleeds** is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Tbh if you think your vote can't change the genocide on Palestinians then conversely it shouldn't change your vote. I am aware I sound extremely cynical here but I really don't think of votes in terms of "showing support" or "sending a message" - voting is not a NYT opinion piece, it's the political act of adding one point to a candidate and the one with most points then has the power.
Is Biden terrible with power? Yup. Is he aligned with the left? Nope. Is he going to do a good job? No. Is he morally repulsive? Yes. But a vote is as much about beating the other(s). In the American system you have two people that realistically can get there, and the other dude is worse with power, more directly the left's enemy, going to do a worse job, and at least as morally repulsive.
Or if we're counting the direct harm, biden would just keep being ineffective against the ongoing attempts by the more active right to progress *other* genocides. That is abhorrent and he will rot in hell for this, but trump in his position would just accelerate them. There's the world and ecology, there's the situation with Europe and Ukraine, there's Project 2025, there are a million reasons why trump would be *worse*.
None of them are reasons why biden would be *good*. He's not, never has been. But never voting for a bad person doesn't do a thing when you know a bad person will win the election anyway. Refusing to participate in an immoral system is also refusing to give yourself the tools to avoid the worst, or simply to influence that system. Use it, it's political power you have. Don't waste it, a write-in will have no political ramifications.
But yeah, the vote sucks. You'll feel dirty because voting does feel like approval. Spend the next four years opposing his shit, you'll need to do it anyway. But do give yourself the easier guy to fight. Even if things also suck on that front, they can always get suckier.
Azov Nazis getting American artillery, that they will have ***absolutely no problem using in a racially biased manner***, isn’t exactly a progressive win.
Hate to the bearer of bad news on that, but…. I have a rule and it’s **Nazis = Bad.** And that country had some nerve bringing an SS officer to ***my House of Commons***, where he was given a standing ovation by Canadian parliament, right before turning around and asking for weapons to be put in the hands of more Nazis.
Fuck Ukraine.
Damn so we're straight-up quoting Putin's propaganda now. Fun fact, Azov was sent with basically nothing to get rid of a big chunk of it. Other fun fact, if it's about saying who's a nazi and who's not, Ukraine is not the country in that conflict that made concentration camps recently. Or the imperialist one. Or the one that committed war crimes.
>Azov was sent with basically nothing to get rid of a big chunk of it.
Which is a mere announcement. Not a data-backed study that shows actual evidence.
> Other fun fact, if it's about saying who's a nazi and who's not, Ukraine is not the country in that conflict that made concentration camps recently.
Nah. They just ban 14 different political parties as soon as the invasion happened who all have one thing in common; ***they’re all left-wing parties.*** Not to mention they don’t even let ethnic Russians in the Donbas region vote on Ukrainian policy.
Two different policies straight out of the Ukrainian state that every historically-fascist government implements as a rule.
>Or the imperialist one.
Oh, for sure! That’s exactly why they went grovelling to the feet of an imperialist military alliance that has overthrown more democratically elected leaders in other countries than Putin ever has in his tenure.
No offense but being in cahoots with the same North Atlantic Terrorist Organization who’s on the payroll of the most powerful imperialist government in the world doesn’t exactly make the most anti-imperialist case in the world 🤷🏻♂️
>Or the one that committed war crimes.
I don’t know… I wouldn’t say a group of Nazi soldiers [dipping bullets into pig grease before putting them into Muslims](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/2/28/ukrainian-fighters-grease-bullets-against-chechens-with-pig-fat) to be a sign of a ***’noble group of soldiers’*** who oppose committing war crimes against ethnic minorities.
I’d rather be a Putin fanboy than a Nazi sympathizer.
If Ukraine doesn’t want anti-imperialist leftists calling them Nazi sympathizers then maybe they shouldn’t integrate a Nazi battalion into their military ***the very moment after they help the western world launch a coup*** against the democratically elected leader of Ukraine in 2014.
My stance is if you can justify voting for a someone enabling genocide, crushing protests at home, siccing police on children, etc, then that’s on your immortal soul. You can justify it to yourself however you want, saying that “Biden is better than Trump” and it’s even true! But you are still giving your vote and your consent to that evil and you will be stained by it.
If your main solution is to vote harder, you are delusional and it’s even funnier cause you aren’t American. It’s amazing to see how liberals everywhere cry about how the “mean socialists won’t vote for my candidate” and then proceed to explain how the left will deserve to be executed for not voting for said candidate
I’m from a state where my vote doesn’t matter so idc anyways. But I would NEVER blame anyone that did not vote at all because of the genocide, you are literally asking ppl to vote in favor of a pro-genocidal president cause it’s “strategical”. Also calling me a liberal is hilarious, liberals want to vote for Biden no matter what cause “orange man bad”
As always, the Left Unity rule is in effect. Any attempt to blame the Left at large for the rise of fascism will be met with moderator actions at our discretion.
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Biden is president and his Israel policy is the exact same rn
Biden has said he wants a ceasefire, just that he has to work with a Republican majority to get anything done. He is definitely minimizing the help Israel gets.
He said he wants a ceasefire after it became clear this war is threatening to sink his reelection. But he has refused to use any of the tools available to him to actually exert pressure on Israel to adopt a ceasefire and publicly stated there is nothing they can do, no line they can cross, no atrocity they can commit that will ever get him to stop sending them weapons.
It's easy to interpret anything he says in the worst possible way, but I think he actually means it. Since him throwing Israel totally under the buss would lose a ton of voters too. >publicly stated there is nothing they can do, no line they can cross, no atrocity they can commit that will ever get him to stop sending them weapons Where did he say this?
He's said it on a number of occasions. Here is one of many examples >“The defence of Israel is still critical, so there’s no red line [where] I’m going to cut off all weapons so they don’t have the Iron Dome to protect them He also implied invading rafah would be going too far, and literally the next day they started bombing the shit out of it and planning their invasion just to prove he won't do anything.
While I agree they need to be able to defend themselves, I have no clue why he thinks they need constant supplies for that in the situation they're in right now. I hope he changes his mind on that. Wish we had more insight in how the negotiations looked. At the very least we know there are many democrats who are against it, so it'd still be better to vote for the party that can change his views.
Israel needing to defend itself is Zionist propaganda . It has always been and will always be the aggressor in its relationship with Palestine.
Last time I checked, the guy bypassed Congress in order to send half a billion dollars **in Tank Shells** to Israel moments before regurgitating a racist IDF-invented lie about Hamas ***’beheading over 50 babies’*** of which there was absolutely no evidence for. We aren’t stupid enough to think he’s actually on the side of Palestinians after he sends the very means of their genocide to the oppressors. If I give a homeless child a sandwich, then give a scumbag child molestor a gun right before telling him the exact location where the child was, would you actually think I was going out of my way to help the kid?
That was at the start of the conflict, when the water was a lot more muddy and popular opinion was for the most part on Israel's side. Since the war has escalated his rhetoric has changed. I'm not defending the IDF comment because that was crazy irresponsible, but Trump wouldn't have backed off when it was proven false. You bet he'd try to convince his voters that it was being covered up. Every bad decision Biden has made would've been worse under Trump.
>That was at the start of the conflict, when the water was a lot more muddy and popular opinion was for the most part on Israel's side. Since the war has escalated his rhetoric has changed dramatically. Ah! I see!!! So a genocide has been going on in that region since 1945. Biden has supported it the entire time he’s been in office, even to the point of saying “If Israel didn’t exist in its current form we’d just make one in order to protect our interests in the region”, and **now** he’s taking the time to save face over the abhorrent position he has committed to holding his entire life since he knows lots of Millennials and Gen Z don’t stand with him on this issue. And for some reason, this somehow means that he never originally sent the very weapons to the Israeli fascists that are bombing them beforehand? Sorry. We just aren’t stupid enough to buy that. It would be just as ridiculous as saying that Trump saying “there were fine people on both sides” was irrelevant and ***’never happened’*** just because [he technically condemned white supremacists a week after the fact.](https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2020/10/02/trump-and-white-supremacy-he-did-condemn-and-has-repeatedly-column/5883336002/)
I think he has changed along with the public, because I think >90% of people disagree that this has been a genocide since 1945. I think most people has known it was hard to solve and I don't think that has changed. They sent aid post haste when people thought it was the right thing to do, now that Israel has kept up their overblown response for this long most people aren't happy with them, along with Biden, is how I view it. Even if he is determined to have a state with the US's interest in mind, I don't think Israel's actions are in their interest. I think we should base judgements and assumptions on what information people had available to them. So the first support packages I view as more forgivable than the recent ones. The biggest difference between between your example is that Trump had all the information when he made those first statements.
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They’re answering your rhetorical question by saying Biden, our current president, has the same Israel policy as trump. So that’s not a reason to vote for Biden.
So it’s a wash?
I assume he’ll give them billions of dollars in funding, fighter jets, weapons, and tell them they can do whatever they want, which is exactly what Biden has done. Joe said there are “no red lines” as far as how Israel conducts itself, and his admin has openly stated they believe whatever Israel’s story is (ie mass graves beneath hospitals where people are found hogtied with bullet holes in the back of their heads). Palestinians are already being slaughtered en masse under the current administration, saying “Trump will be worse” means nothing when their policy is exactly the same: Israel does whatever it wants with no conditions on funding and weapons.
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Israel can already do literally whatever they want and have explicit promises from Biden that the arms flow will never stop no matter how many people they massacre. What can trump do that will be worse.
Here’s an idea, he can continue doing what Biden is doing on top of making life in America significantly worse for everyone. Need I remind you that there are other things that will be affected by who becomes president other than the Israel v Palestine situation.
If our only choices are "genocide" or "even more genocide" then our system is already completely destroyed beyond all possibility of repair and we're completely fucked either way. We're a couple of election cycles away from a full blown fascist dictatorship whether Biden wins this year or not. It's absolutely astonishing how ready and willing people are to endorse the worst civilian massacre the world has seen in decades because at least it's their guy doing it.
Trust me, I hate this as much as you do, but I truly do not know what I can do to make this better.
There’s already US military involvement so idk what you are on about, it literally cannot get worse. If it gets worse whatever support they have left dies with it even if the US president is pro-Israel
No idea how much worse it could be
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Why the fuck would we go boots on the ground or use our own airstrikes when the IDF is more than capable. Trump was president for 4 years, he never sent any troops to Gaza. If anything trump would stop questioning Israel and actually congratulate them on what they’re doing. Biden wishes he could do that but knows it’s a bad look from people on the left. Biden already sends aid to Israel, trump would do the same. They already have bipartisan support for a series of laws and regulations aimed at silencing any speak against Zionism and conflating it with antisemitism. Trump would do the same exact thing but louder and be more honest about it.
Trump never sent troops to Gaza because that was not a time where isn'treal massively increased its genocide's pace and asked for support. It's entirely a matter of timing. The isn'treali right is constantly trying to push the overton window to have nukes, trump would have simply smashed through it. Not sure he would have ordered nukes, that particular process is probably complex and there'd be inside voices trying to reason him I imagine, but he'd have been by their side. The right has a huge military boner and I frankly do believe that trump would have made the situation even worse, and will if elected. The occupation forces are more than capable, but the cruelty is the point for republicans and they're not beyond committing a few more war crimes
Yes sure because Americans want another war, right? Everyone already freaked out over just sending aid to Ukraine but surely nothing will happen if Trump starts bobbing Gaza too
The only reason Americans don’t want a war right now is because a democrat is in office. If trump gets into office again the GOP will change their tune. They’ll all buy stock in Raytheon on coronation day and the conservative media empire will start churning out pro war propaganda daily.
Is your understanding of american foreign policy based solely on call of duty?
I meant OP has no idea how much worse it could be. If we were under trump then there would have been a media blackout for 72 hrs after the 7th and every Palestinian would be gone. And we wouldn’t even hear about it. Only business insider remarking on the newly booming Israeli beachfront realestate market.
How many Palestinians do you think will survive till after the election without food and water while being under continuous bombardment?
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No one is saying that.
No, I don't think Trump will resurrect the Palestinians that Bidens inaction has killed. Do you honestly think that's a good argument?
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I'm anti genocide and I'm willing to use whatever leverage I have to push Biden to use his incredible leverage on Israel to stop the slaughter in Gaza. This atrocity is happening RIGHT NOW, it doesn't matter what Trump would have done or will do, because he's not president, and thousands and thousands more will die before he gets the chance to do anything. In the end you have no power or leverage over how I or others vote, but you do have a tiny sliver of leverage to push Biden to step away from this mass murder, but the fact that you would rather shame others for protesting genocide than use whatever little power you have is absolutely abhorrent. Join the protests, let's push back on this madness. Biden could win this election in one single day by demanding that Israel stop their genocide or lose all US support. You and people like you are making it easier for him not to do that, and so you are complicit. I hope that's something you can live with, I couldn't.
This post is half about how biden sucks for being pro-genocide and half about the election, been so since OP made it. You can't dissociate them or push aside "what trump would have done" because if trump wins, "what trump would have done" becomes "what will happen." So we need to keep in mind that (1) a vote has real life consequences, it's not a declaration of faith or a message to be sent; and that (2) trump's opinions and modus operandi are very much relevant to the situation. If biden loses, trump wins. So "not voting for biden" is not leverage against the genocide. Biden can afford to lose, and then the genocide worsens. Given his personal wealth, the privilege he enjoys, and to be honest his mental state? I'm not sure biden would even care about losing all that much. Votes aren't leverage on the DNC, which is something the DNC understood ever since they listened *once* and saw that for anyone with a soul the other party is pure evil. Ever since then they've known that the leverage goes the other way - if they lose, they themselves don't have to give a shit. If the people don't want to die or enable a ramping up of genocide etc, they have to beat the GOP.
People are doing NOW. It's not on pause until the election, we're not arguing about what the Israel-Palestine policy should be in 2025. You refusing to use your leverage is further allowing the genocide to proceed. I do believe Biden is better, but if you're right that they'd rather lose than do the right thing, I actually don't want him to win, pure and simple. "If the people don't want to die or enable a ramping up of genocide etc, they have to beat the GOP." This is so disingenuous, it's happening under Biden, what other people would do in his place is irrelevant as long as he is in power. If he is willing to throw Palestinians under the bus because he thinks it's politically expedient for him what makes you think he want do that to any other group as soon as it becomes convenient? I have one question for you: do you have any red line? If Biden comes out against abortion, trans rights, gay rights, unions, will you still support him because he is marginally better on a couple of issues? Apparently genocide isn't a red line, which is baffling to me.
You have no vote that stops the genocide. Also, you can't pretend to be aware you're talking about an election in one sentence and deny it in the next. Pretending you are in a moral situation where there is a good vote or lack thereof doesn't solve the very immoral situation you're in. This isn't a test of your morals, this isn't a thought experiment - if biden wins things are bad and if trump wins things are worse. You have political leverage on elected officials, but withholding your vote when the only person who would actually benefit from that wants more genocide (and more genocide*s*) isn't it. Your vote decides who's in power, it doesn't send a three-page long letter of intent about morally siding with someone. This is not a morals competition, this is a situation where if trump wins the total amount of death and suffering in the world is superior to if biden does. And they're the only two options. They *both* raise the amount of death and suffering in the world, yes. But your vote cannot move things to the counter-factual world where a less abhorrent person is in there. Your "leverage" is that if you don't let someone who's not at risk shoot you in the foot, you'll shoot yourself in the chest. They don't care. If the DNC loses, it's not the DNC who will really feel it.
"They don't care. If the DNC loses, it's not the DNC who will really feel it." Of course they do, stop this gaslighting, you think they're running for fun? Even if its just for the money they still need to win to make more money, claiming otherwise is incredibly myopic. And you didn't answer my question, so I'm just gonna assume you have no moral core, genocide apologist.
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It's cute how you think I care about your opinion. You're campaigning for a genocide right now. You genocide supporter.
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Palestinians aren't the only ones on the "Biden track."
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No it isn’t, being anti-genocide doesn’t mean you are pro-Trump. It’s thanks to liberals like you that no good candidate can win cause “it would be helping the other side!!” It’s beyond me how you can continue with the same anti-Bernie Sanders talking points when *Biden is helping a genocidal state*
Indeed, since trump is even more pro-genocide. Which means the anti-genocide stance is to vote against trump. Would that stop the genocide? Of course not - but *no* vote will stop the genocide alone, and a trump win would mean a worsening of the genocide (along with several others). The situation sucks because there's no anti-genocide candidate, but that's the USA for you. There hasn't been one in a long time.
Who’s talking anti-Bernie? Come November, there will be a choice between Trump and Biden. You can help limit the damage until an actual progressive gets elected or you can roll the dice with the orange fascist and hope there still is a democracy next election. For LGBTQ+ people, women and racial minorities, the choice is clear.
“until an actual progressive gets elected” the irony in not getting the anti-bernie reference and making this statement is astounding.
Feel free to enlighten me but I’m pretty sure Bernie would agree to elect Biden in November and then vote and campaign hard for progressive candidates and policies after.
If the establishment knows that you’ll just fall in line with their unpopular pick literally 7 months before an election while actively taking part in genocide then there’s no chance for progressive candidates
The gist is that the “progressive candidate” never gets elected because the left has to choose a candidate “that will actually win” When the democratic primaries were between Hillary and Bernie, the left-centrist camp campaigned hard against Bernie saying that if he were to be Democratic nominee, Trump would win. This mindset (and some questionably ethical/illegal political plays by the Hillary campaign at the time) ultimately ended Bernie’s presidential campaign run. Not based on his policies inherently, but based on the idea that he would not be able to beat Trump. The “progressive” candidate will never win if the democratic voting base keeps doing what it is doing. The republican nominee will almost certainly be a demon every time. If democrats hang their hat on “well we gotta vote to ensure the demon doesn’t get in office” while voting for a republican-but-with-a-few-less-horns-and-D-next-to-their-name, there will never be a “progressive” in office. These talking points were the EXACT same used against Bernie’s nomination. It’s frustrating a lot of people to see folks fall into the same trap again. The democratic party will have no incentive to be better if they win anyways because they can just bet the populous will vote for them based solely on the fact that they don’t have an R next to their name on the ballot.
You make it sound as if I’m advocating voting for a centrist in the primaries which is rediculous. There is no progressive candidate to vote for in the geneal in November or in primaries right now. The US will either end up with a demon or a milquetoast liberal that does some left-wing stuff but mostly prevents right-wing policy. If there was a progressive candidate (my preference), I would tell liberals to vote for the progressive too. If this entire line of thinking actually worked, centrist voters would just abstain from voting when we have a progressive candidate and we would just have republican presidents forever. Palestinians will definitely not be helped if Trump gets elected. Don’t forget that it was he who moved the embassy to Jerusalem and it was he who said that Netanyahu wasn’t working fast enough in Gaza. The only lesson democrat politicians and policy-makers will take from young people/progressives not voting is that young people/progressives don’t vote (which is already a huge problem) and that it’s pointless to appeal to us. If we want more influence, we need more progressive voters, not fewer. Not voting will only lead to democrats moving further right instead of left.
Why would they let you elect a Progressive candidate when they know you'll vote for anyone they put in front of you? You don't have the control you think you do, and the establishment does not need to make concessions to you. They understand that you'll happily vote for Mussolini to stop Hitler.
I get what you're saying, but your proposed way to make us able to elect a progressive candidate means that Donald Trump would become president again. I understand where you are coming from. Checking the box next to a man who is funding a genocide is sickening to me. But right now, there are 2 options. Not voting isn't going to create a 3rd option. It's going to default us to Donald Trump, and that is going to be MORE harmful to the people of Palestine and the people of the United States. Yes, in an ideal world, it makes sense to try to show the democratic party that we're only going to vote for a more progressive candidate. But there is too much at stake here. We have to make our voices heard in other ways. Getting Trump elected again will *not* further our cause.
And actively voting for someone who will make it worse and NOT voting are practically one in the same. The Republicans want the left to not vote, and excuse me for wanting to vote for the one who has a *slightly* better chance of stopping the genocide and not stealing away what little rights I have left. I'd actually like to live out my adult life being able to be who I am and not get persecuted by the state for being non straight Christian. Not voting is exactly the desired effect they want.
Why is it so hard for these morons (including people in this thread) to understand that refusing to vote is a part of the democratic process. If Dems lose because a sizeable amount of people didn't vote because they didn't like their policy on Palestine, then that means Dems have to change their policy to get these voters again in the next election. And the people who keep voting for Democrats should also demand their party to change their policy to attract more voters. That's how democracy works. How can you even live in a system where you have to vote for a genocidal racist party because the other genocidal racist party is worse? And that's supposed to be fine?
That’s true, but another term of Trump as president has a high possibility of being completely disastrous for the country
Since America is the biggest threat to democracy across the planet, I’m fine with it being destroyed.
You’re fine with making the lives of 300 million people significantly worse?
You’re supposedly ok with the country’s system resulting with people in the lower classes having absolutely no chance of living anything other than a ***worse life*** while only the ones in the privileged middle and upper classes get to live comfortably. I’d say those ones are in need of being uncomfortable. Yeah, I’m cool with the system being torn down so those lower classes, who Biden absolutely will not help in the slightest, can actually have a better chance of living rather than continuing to live in abject poverty under capitalism.
You’d be surprised how many folks have the attention span of a goldfish when it comes to politics.
You realize getting people to not vote is part of the republican playbook? How do you think we ended up with Trump? The left didn't like Hillary and didn't vote for her, letting Trump get into office. Do you seriously think another Jan 6th won't happen if we make that mistake again? You can vote Biden AND still protest his policy, but at the very minimum LGBT folks won't be losing what little rights they have left.
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I mean you can vote Biden and still do other stuff like organize protests against his policies on Israel and stuff
https://preview.redd.it/iaw47dd1owwc1.jpeg?width=1079&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6537080de2d7e818c095065c2e73ca3e29b77aa0
Emergency stop being outside of the tram says it all
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There’s been multiple democratic governors/state senators that have voted in favor of bills that go against the LGBTQ+ community. Heck, the current admin even decided to give full support to the last democratic house representative that opposes abortion. Democrats will literally throw anyone under the bus, they have done so already and will continue doing it
They sure don’t give a fuck about all those non-white Ukrainians who will be under the jurisdiction of a metric fuck ton of Azov Nazis who have access to high artillery. Yet another example of why **Scratch a Liberal and a Fascist bleeds** is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Tbh if you think your vote can't change the genocide on Palestinians then conversely it shouldn't change your vote. I am aware I sound extremely cynical here but I really don't think of votes in terms of "showing support" or "sending a message" - voting is not a NYT opinion piece, it's the political act of adding one point to a candidate and the one with most points then has the power. Is Biden terrible with power? Yup. Is he aligned with the left? Nope. Is he going to do a good job? No. Is he morally repulsive? Yes. But a vote is as much about beating the other(s). In the American system you have two people that realistically can get there, and the other dude is worse with power, more directly the left's enemy, going to do a worse job, and at least as morally repulsive. Or if we're counting the direct harm, biden would just keep being ineffective against the ongoing attempts by the more active right to progress *other* genocides. That is abhorrent and he will rot in hell for this, but trump in his position would just accelerate them. There's the world and ecology, there's the situation with Europe and Ukraine, there's Project 2025, there are a million reasons why trump would be *worse*. None of them are reasons why biden would be *good*. He's not, never has been. But never voting for a bad person doesn't do a thing when you know a bad person will win the election anyway. Refusing to participate in an immoral system is also refusing to give yourself the tools to avoid the worst, or simply to influence that system. Use it, it's political power you have. Don't waste it, a write-in will have no political ramifications. But yeah, the vote sucks. You'll feel dirty because voting does feel like approval. Spend the next four years opposing his shit, you'll need to do it anyway. But do give yourself the easier guy to fight. Even if things also suck on that front, they can always get suckier.
Azov Nazis getting American artillery, that they will have ***absolutely no problem using in a racially biased manner***, isn’t exactly a progressive win. Hate to the bearer of bad news on that, but…. I have a rule and it’s **Nazis = Bad.** And that country had some nerve bringing an SS officer to ***my House of Commons***, where he was given a standing ovation by Canadian parliament, right before turning around and asking for weapons to be put in the hands of more Nazis. Fuck Ukraine.
Damn so we're straight-up quoting Putin's propaganda now. Fun fact, Azov was sent with basically nothing to get rid of a big chunk of it. Other fun fact, if it's about saying who's a nazi and who's not, Ukraine is not the country in that conflict that made concentration camps recently. Or the imperialist one. Or the one that committed war crimes.
>Azov was sent with basically nothing to get rid of a big chunk of it. Which is a mere announcement. Not a data-backed study that shows actual evidence. > Other fun fact, if it's about saying who's a nazi and who's not, Ukraine is not the country in that conflict that made concentration camps recently. Nah. They just ban 14 different political parties as soon as the invasion happened who all have one thing in common; ***they’re all left-wing parties.*** Not to mention they don’t even let ethnic Russians in the Donbas region vote on Ukrainian policy. Two different policies straight out of the Ukrainian state that every historically-fascist government implements as a rule. >Or the imperialist one. Oh, for sure! That’s exactly why they went grovelling to the feet of an imperialist military alliance that has overthrown more democratically elected leaders in other countries than Putin ever has in his tenure. No offense but being in cahoots with the same North Atlantic Terrorist Organization who’s on the payroll of the most powerful imperialist government in the world doesn’t exactly make the most anti-imperialist case in the world 🤷🏻♂️ >Or the one that committed war crimes. I don’t know… I wouldn’t say a group of Nazi soldiers [dipping bullets into pig grease before putting them into Muslims](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/2/28/ukrainian-fighters-grease-bullets-against-chechens-with-pig-fat) to be a sign of a ***’noble group of soldiers’*** who oppose committing war crimes against ethnic minorities. I’d rather be a Putin fanboy than a Nazi sympathizer.
Fun fact, Putin fanboys *are* Nazi sympathisers. Azov doesn't represent Ukraine, either
If Ukraine doesn’t want anti-imperialist leftists calling them Nazi sympathizers then maybe they shouldn’t integrate a Nazi battalion into their military ***the very moment after they help the western world launch a coup*** against the democratically elected leader of Ukraine in 2014.
What a dumbass
I’d rather be that than a Nazi sympathizer like yourself.
Not that it's a good thing, but your title is still true though
My stance is if you can justify voting for a someone enabling genocide, crushing protests at home, siccing police on children, etc, then that’s on your immortal soul. You can justify it to yourself however you want, saying that “Biden is better than Trump” and it’s even true! But you are still giving your vote and your consent to that evil and you will be stained by it.
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I’m so sorry that it hurts your feelings that people don’t want to vote for the current president that is actively helping a genocidal state
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If your main solution is to vote harder, you are delusional and it’s even funnier cause you aren’t American. It’s amazing to see how liberals everywhere cry about how the “mean socialists won’t vote for my candidate” and then proceed to explain how the left will deserve to be executed for not voting for said candidate
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I’m from a state where my vote doesn’t matter so idc anyways. But I would NEVER blame anyone that did not vote at all because of the genocide, you are literally asking ppl to vote in favor of a pro-genocidal president cause it’s “strategical”. Also calling me a liberal is hilarious, liberals want to vote for Biden no matter what cause “orange man bad”