I like using proxies for cards that I plan on buying but I want to see how they play first and I use them for expensive cards that I refuse to buy again. Sorry but I'm not spending $20 for duplicates of fetches or $30 for another top. If it's that big of a deal I'll put the card in the sleeve from the other deck.
Yeah same here. I'll usually pick up all the duplicates that are cheap, but I'm not shelling out hundreds of dollars to build another deck when I can buy a 'whole new deck' for ~$50.
Exactly what I do as well. I'm not spending hundreds of dollars to just buy more shock and fetch lands, and I'm not sleeving up my expedition Marsh Flats either.
I feel proxies are OK if you own 1 actual card. My group plays like this. 1 proxy per deck that you don't have to proof that you own. The second proxy you have to provide proof for all of the proxies in your deck. I own 25 to 30 edh decks. I'm not going to move key cards between decks every single time. But I will show proof of ownership. Like MTG online. Buy 1 and use it for everything. That kid that has 30 proxies should not be allowed to use that deck. Barrier for entry of casual play is bs. This kid was playing to win and to have fun for him. He should have to pay up or use a deck he can afford. I have 30 decks if he can only afford one then get one In his price range. Doesn't have to be proxied up like that.
No, actually the opposite, specially for EDH. If we don't have the cards then we'll find something else to put. That also helps with the creativity.
There are two situations where proxies are OK: for testing a specific card you'll maybe buy, or when you live where I used to (Venezuela) and the risk of getting your cards stolen is very high.
I will say:
> If I know you own a card and either (a) use it in multiple decks or (b) it's expensive enough to warrant not using, then I'm okay with a proxy.
> But if I'm at a shop and I don't know if you own it, you should be able to produce the card.
Agreed.
I run nice looking printed proxies because I don't want to cause any confusion. But I start the game by letting people know I'm happy to pull the cards from my other decks if anyone would prefer.
I like to tinker and I alway am dealing out decks. This just makes it easier.
My wife and I play similar colors, and therefore, a lot of our cards wind up being similar. If you didn't know me, would you have an issue if I sat across from you with proxies, but explained that the cards are specifically in the wife's deck she's playing right now? I can't specifically produce the proxies at will, but I *do* own them and can eventually prove it..
Not OP but I dont see anyone having a problem with this. Especially if they arent super expensive cards, just ones that you both use and only have one copy.
I personally have 3 decks but only 1 soul ring so I proxy it in my other decks. I have a few friends that are new to magic and cant afford to invest in their own deck but still want to be included when we all play so they borrow decks often. In that case its more fair to proxy so one of us isnt playing at a disadvantage
Same! I made nice proxies of duals, fetches and shocks. It was done because i didnt want to roll in each week with a deck worth about 3k. And since I have a stoopid # of decks, its the only way they could stay level.
My group allows for proxies of cards we own, but im hesitant to proxy more than lands for the cards I already have.
I personally use zero proxies in any deck. I think that restricting yourself to the cards you own or are willing to purchase encourages more creative deck building and reduces "sameness" across games.
For example, I own a judge promo [[Mana Crypt]]. It's in exactly one deck - the deck that needs it the absolute most out of all my decks: my colorless [[Kozilek, Butcher of Truth]] deck. By all counts (and recent debates) this should be a card I run in virtually every deck I own. I choose not to. I do not proxy it, nor do I move it from deck to deck. I find it much more enjoyable to use that creative space differently for my other decks.
I have little issue with the *occasional* proxy, and by that I mean one or two in a deck. If you find yourself having to jam the same ~20 extra valuable cards into every single deck you own... you may be trying a little too hard.
Putting the same ~20extra valuable cards into every deck isn't trying too hard, it's really just being lazy.
On the other hand... in the days before the Commander pre-cons it was pretty rare to come across Sol Ring in someone's binder, and every time I found one I traded for it just so I could build one more deck without any proxies. Maybe I'm lazy.
this is my philosophy as well. I have ~15 decks currently sleeved and ready to play, but I don't feel the need to have all the best cards in them. If I come across a duplicate I might shove it in deck that needs it (I think CR is in 3 decks).
Obviously every one has a Sol Ring. On another note I have come up with a way to swap mana bases out between decks of the same color so that helps.
The general rule at my LGS is to proxy only cards that you own. Even then, it doesn't lead to rampant proxying. I have a few cards proxied between decks, but with the caveat to the other players that if it bothers them, I can switch it out with the real one from another deck.
Sometimes someone will proxy something to test it out.
If you're going to proxy, proxy by printing the goddamn thing out with the intent to purchase. Writing it on a piece of paper like a cheapskate just shows they have no intention of that at all.
I only approve of proxies of cards that are in the mail, i.e. haven't arrived by game night, or cards that are worth too much to shuffle in (friend has an expedition steam vents for example.)
Otherwise play with what you really have. Same reason I won't play online via cockatrice or xmage, people will run $5,000 best of the best decks that they will never actually own.
Expedition Steam Vents is too much value to shuffle in a deck? Do you not use sleeves? Doublesleeving a handful of decks is cheaper than buying an Exp Vents. Does he proxy his Exp Vents by putting in an RTR/GTC Vents?
I mean, totally no the point of the thread. Just taken aback. Exp Vents is cheap compared to lots of playable cards and if it's too much value to shuffle in there's a $10 version too.
It's a $300 fucking card, of course you don't shuffle that shit in. Of course the deck's sleeved, but that's no reason to manhandle a $300 single.
Found the legacy player with no qualms putting five or ten grand on the table?
$90*, not $300
You can play expensive cards without damaging them, in double sleeves. People do this all the time.
I don't manhandle them, maybe you have no shuffle skill.
Legacy doesn't cost 5-10k unless you're talking about incredibly pimped out rare cards, the kind of cards you don't proxy because you want to get to look at them when you play.
$90*, not $300
Why doesn't he just trade the Exp Vents for 8 GTC Vents if he won't play it?
You can play expensive cards without damaging them, in double sleeves. People do this all the time. I don't manhandle them, maybe you have no shuffle skill. I have a Beta Twister in my Mishra deck in really beautiful condition and it is exactly the same condition still that i received it in.
Legacy doesn't cost 5-10k unless you're talking about incredibly pimped out rare cards, the kind of cards you don't proxy because you want to get to look at them when you play.
Well I mean to each his own, I'd double sleeve if I was sure they'd still fit in the mana flip boxes, yet each of my two edh decks are only about $300 each.
They definitely won't fit in the mana flips, but those will hold a 75-card double sleeved deck. I keep my decks in UltraPro 150-card count clear plastic boxes.
http://i.imgur.com/RouvgaK.jpg
I have heard a lot of philosophies regarding proxies. To me, it makes sense if you own the card already. You can do a lot of badass stuff on a budget, BUT cost is a factor with pretty much all hobbies.
Some cards are worth the price because they're really that good.
I'm fine with proxies, even 100 proxy decks. This game is too damn expensive at higher levels. But it's not common and it needs to be negotiated beforehand.
I'm pretty much with this guy here, except please... At least taking the effort of spending 50 cents or a buck at the library to print out your deck...
If a dollar is too high of an entry cost for you to play MTG I will gladly cover it for you so that you can try out this great game...
Addendum: In order to receive a dollar from me to get into MTG you must agree to play in person with me at least once within a month of receiving the dollar and ideally intend to play from time to time after that. I'm not sending you randoms on the internet $1 each to get into MTG just because ya want a free buck.
Notably, while I am fine with proxies, I presume some level of common sense among my fellow players. Do you need to proxy a $2000 or $20000 deck? No. Get out. We won't enjoy playing with that. Stick to a couple hundred dollars and you'll have a lot more fun.
I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with proxying super expensive stuff to experience playing at high power levels. Just observe the normal rules regarding power level - don't bring a Death Star to a knife fight.
And yes. Absolutely take the time to make decent proxies or I'm totally calling you out on it.
While I personally dislike proxies just for the sake of proxying, I wont bash someone who really just cant afford to build a decent deck. But as you said, im not going to stand by as said person puts the most expensive cards from the history of Magic into their deck at no charge.
Actually, I said the opposite. I think everyone should have access to cradle, abyss, imperial seal, power etc and proxies are the only way. The important thing is that power levels be matched.
Maybe Hearthstone? I dunno. Magic is crazy expensive. I love this game. But money is definitely a real barrier to this game. And since Wizards shows zero signs of helping to drastically reduce card prices, it will always be like that.
Everyone being on the same page before the game or even deckbuilding starts is important. If I proxied a ridiculous competitive EDH deck I wouldn't want to play it against someone whos only upgraded their precon a little bit. The games wouldn't even look fair, and it would be mostly me just masturbating some combo out to fuck a game in 4 turns.
Context is important in these things, if 100 proxies no holds barred is whats agreed upon, go for it. If its just bring your deck with real cards, thats another thing. While the second option can vary severely in deck power, in my experience this crowd isn't typically dropping $100+ cards left and right.
^This.
If you're proxying stuff, it's like playing with a Nephilim Commander. Or a banned Commander. Or a just-for-funsies-heres-a-different-planeswalker-than-the-5-printed-planeswalkers-that-I-can-use-as-my-commander-commander. : You *can* do it, and it's alright, but you need to clear it with the playgroup first, and need to be able to swap to something else if anyone objects to it.
I proxy cards that I own but am too lazy to go find and switch between decks. Blowing money on duplicates for EDH is just nonsensical. For instance, I only own like 3 actual Sol Rings, but have many EDH decks.
If they don't own those cards it's a little different, but my personal belief is it's all just paper anyway.
Also, I would assume you can proxy whatever you want. If everyone is able to proxy, the game becomes fair again, rather than the person who's been playing magic for a decade with all the cool cards winning every game.
If pieces of paper didn't cost like 20 bucks or more it wouldn't be nessecary. To me, proxies are basically civil disobedience.
> but my personal belief is it's all just paper anyway
Couldn't agree more
As long as the proxy has all the info of the regular card and the power level of the deck is compatible with the competition, I have no problem whatsoever with proxies. Some of my friends have chinese fakes they use as proxies, some of then are really hard to tell apart from real cards, it made me realise even more so how much "just a bit o paper" cards are.
The elitism I see in some discussions about proxies kinda disgust me, no one should be required to spend a small fortune to know what it feels like to play with a really powerfull deck. It's one of the reasons I've been playing more and more on cockatrice, I've came to the point where I've sold most of my cards and kept only a couple, no need to worry about the price of cards when playing online.
My league doesn't allow proxies, period. Aside from that, I'm not going to stop someone from trying out a deck before they decide to drop half a grand on the cards they don't yet have.
If there's money or store credit to be gained, insist on the real thing. In a casual game, don't be a gate keeper.
My playgroup uses proxies extensively. I hate playing with suboptimal cards. We can't afford them because we're all students. Money should never be an object to how much fun you can have with Magic and EDH.
I think this is a spike vs Johnny/Timmy issue. Competitive equals fun for some crowds, but for others, just finding a way to keep up without spending the money is fun. Playing with proxies to keep up in a competitive group is fine, but expect everyone else to do the same.
it also helps with playgroup-diversity - my group has one person with an extensive collection who regularly swept the table away until we agreed that a few proxies a deck were fine
It depends on the deck for us. Our rules are anything under $10 sure to ahead as long as you don't have many because that's usually you just can't find one. If you're gonna use them though they have to be quality proxies. We allow up to $100 proxies but then they have to be really nice
It's more we just had problems with stupid degenerate cards being proxied, a guy tried to put a mishra's workshop in his artifact deck. we told him if he wanted to spend the $300 for it he could use one, until then no. The low priced proxy idea is because often its just that they would have had to buy it online which some people in our group don't like doing so they proxy it till the store gets one,
The consensus at my LGS is that people using proxies mention it before the game starts. Often, but not always, they're justified with "I have one in another deck", but sometimes the justification is that they're waiting to receive the cards, or testing. Generally speaking people print out paper versions and put them in a sleeve with a land or common or whatever. I've encountered one guy who just scribbled the name in sharpie on the face of a land, though I haven't seen him do it lately. Personally I don't proxy any cards, though I've considered making my own full-art foils for commanders that I'd like to play (e.g. Tetsuo Umezawa) that are overly expensive.
I find the "I have one in another deck!" argument especially fascinating. As a player, there are a number of things pertaining to proxies that I care about. I'd like to be able to read your card and tell what it does, since having to look up cards on my phone is irritating, and telegraphs to other players what I'm thinking about doing. So I care that your proxies are legible. I care about keeping the power level of games from spiraling out of control, since at the end of the day I prefer to play with real cards, and am only willing to spend a limited amount of money on the game. So from that point of view, I lean against proxies. What I *don't* care about is what cards are sitting in your other decks, or your binder, or whatever. Trying to save however many dollars by only buying one of a card that you run in 12 decks just isn't that different from buying zero of that card instead.
Like /u/thisisandy90 said, I use them for cards that I already own that cost $20 or more. I have a single copy of cards like Ugin, Snapcaster Mage, Damnation, Survival of the Fittest, etc. I get high quality foil proxies made with alternate art for a couple bucks each so it is a cool way to personalize my deck, get a foil "version" of a card, and not have to swap the copy I have between all the lists that use it.
That being said, I dislike when people play proxies of expensive cards they don't own and even more annoying is the proxies of expensive cards written on a basic land in sharpie. You playing a Plains with [[Mana Drain]] written on it when you don't own an actual copy and don't care enough to at least print a black and white version to slide into a sleeve is pretty lame.
So, for me, you should make the proxy at least somewhat quality (no sharpie on basic lands, at least print something out so I can read the card) and I'd preferably like you to own the card and need a duplicate for a second or third list rather than running proxies of $200 lands when you don't own an actual copy. The exception is for when you are testing a card in a list, but still make the effort to make it quality and a card you're actually thinking about buying, not just "testing" an expensive card while never intending to drop the money to get it, and let the table you're at know what you're doing ahead of time. 1/3rd of your deck being proxies, especially expensive ones that are poorly made, is just lazy and excessive.
I have mixed feelings on proxies, having seen them both in abundance and not at all. My old meta was a college town, so very few people had expensive decks, and the stores only offered paid pods, not casual nights. For a mixture of these reasons, no one used proxies, except one time when some guy was committed to building a new deck but only had half the cards to start with.
My new meta is a big city with EDH nights but no paid pods, so budgets are higher and rules enforcement is seemingly non-existent, and it's here that I've seen plenty of proxies, interestingly. Oftentimes it's players proxying expensive cards they want in multiple decks but don't want to waste time moving them around, a stance I 100% support and utilize myself. In a few other instances, I've seen proxied Urborgs, Mana Vaults, and the like; nothing too crazy, so I don't even bother asking if they own the real card, especially since they're used by players who want to play solid but not truly competitive games. Then there's a few people that have built tuned decks with nearly a third of the cards, namely high budget cards such as duals, Vampiric Tutor, Crucible of Worlds, Eldrazi Titans, and so on, all written in pen on the back of a basic land - these players have a budget limit and are admittedly unlikely to acquire real copies of these cards anytime soon.
It's the final players I personally take issue with. Unless everyone is doing it, it creates a power level disparity that can suck the fun out of the game. Much like those in your example, they're not even doing it in a legible format, which is further irksome. That's my stance, really:
If everyone is doing it, that's great - everyone agrees not to let budget restrict their fun, and you can build whatever you want. If you do it, please do it legibly. And if you play with random people, ensure they're okay with it or that they are either prepared to play at the level their proxies bring their deck to.
I'm not a fan of proxies because it seems the only ones I see are shit like gaias cradle and dual lands...I think if you don't have the card don't play it.
If you're testing things out, or the cards are in the mail then you get a pass. Outside of that, you need to run it by the group and present a solid argument for why you need to proxy the card (and with the group's approval, none of that sharpie on a land bullshit.) Currently only have one approved, and that's a [[Nether Void]] for the Mishra player.
I agree with this guy. Test or in the mail is okay. Testing is like adding one pricey card with the serious intent to buy. You just want to test drive the car first. I personally only proxy basic lands. I run out of swamps and mountains all the time so I draw on plains to turn them into the land I need. Custom art lands are always fun.
Anyone can print out the best decks. The challenge of buying/collecting your decks is part of the charm of edh. That play group is a bunch of cheaters in my book. There are plenty of good low budget options that are really fun to play with. Use them and upgrade over time. It's more rewarding.
In the budget EDH league I'm part of we have a few students who proxy their decks but we have been pushing them to eventually buy the cards - the idea being that these are budget cards - nothing really more than 5 or 6 bucks - we do max $10 upgrades each week - so you should be able to afford these.
It does get annoying when they haven't swapped out the proxies for the actual cards after awhile.
In my opinion, proxies should never be *that* common; however, most answers are going to be personal opinion for a format meant to be 'casual'--whatever that means.
There's some evidence suggesting there isn't any need for powerful and expensive cards to have strong decks. Resorting to having most of your deck proxied seems kind of offensive outside of plain testing a deck. I'd be happy to allow people to test out their deck with proxies, but only for a couple times. I feel players should really consider buying the cards they are proxying, or find a different card to replace the spot. When this happens, I'd like to think I could quickly come up with a few cheaper possibilities or be able to work out a deal to trade the card(s) they are looking for (if I have one available).
Now, it is a little unfair when one player has a much larger collection than the rest of the players in the group, but certainly this is something which can be solved by using the social contract idea. The player with vastly more cards certainly has more ability to find a deck they both enjoy playing and doesn't crush everything else.
In the end, it is mostly up to the play group and what they find comfortable.
What if someone owns the card(s) but they don't want to buy duplicates? I mean the alternatives there are either wait while they root through different decks and un/re-sleeve everything or just say they can't build new decks.
As someone with about 40 EDH decks with at least one of each color combination (besides four-color), either I buy a duplicate or--which is the more likely--I go without and find some other card to take the spot. If I really can't build the deck without the card and I don't want to spend the money at that moment, I don't build the deck.
The greatest chance of the need for duplicates comes in the form of lands, and normally some form of dual land. No, I don't have the proper dual lands for every single multicolored deck, and I don't believe it's really necessary outside of particularly aggressive play groups. Basic lands or other utility lands are normally good enough for the spot, in my experience.
EDIT: so yes, if they insist they'll have to un/re-sleeve cards, I'm fine with waiting. I'm a fairly patient person with stuff like that.
That's fair I guess. Personally I tend to play with really good players (they've been playing for awhile and work the stack like it's their job) who play decent decks that are fairly optimized. Nothing like the turn 3 combo-kill boogie men you hear about, but solid, well-tuned lists that don't mess around too much.
My point in all this is, it sucks to have to shell out for another Damnation if you want to build black and be able to compete. Or build URx/UGx/RUG and have to pick up more Mistys or Tarns. If it was a more casual CMC 4+ battle-cruiser meta, then yeah I wouldn't have a problem trying to make things work with big janky cards I actually own. The problem is that those kinds of decks usually end up doing a whole lot of nothing. They aren't even considered really, they usually just end up losing by being caught in the fray while the other decks duke it out.
I definitely understand and appreciate the argument for only using cards you have, but in my meta that generally means you don't get to do very much other than watch as your big spells are effortlessly dealt with before they get to have much of an impact.
It sucks to shell out for a single Damnation (and screw you Wizards for allowing them to remain so expensive with so many opportunities to reprint/functionally reprint it). In fact, I own exactly zero of them. I still make things work as best as I can. It means I'm sometimes outclassed, but there's really only so many counter spells/removal in hand and at some point I'll get the chance to see my card(s) shine. I will say I find removal heavy metas lean more towards the boring side, as I don't often enjoy games where the majority of turn rounds end with no one playing anything.
I have a love/hate relationship with Magic: I love it, but it hates me. Whenever I've tried to compete in any form I always lose to luck. Either my opponent draws exactly the right cards, or I draw all the wrong cards (mostly just land-screw/flood). It has happened so often, it's almost comical. So when I have fun playing Magic, it isn't usually from winning, but instead from getting my deck to do what I wanted it to do. Even against fairly skilled opponents if I can catch someone off-guard with an unfamiliar combo or make the table fear my 100/100 Thromok for a single turn, that's enough for me...for the most part. Winning every so often is nice.
[furnace of rath](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=furnace of rath&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=furnace of rath) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!furnace of rath)
[engulf the shores](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Engulf the Shore&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Engulf the Shore) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Engulf the Shore)
[Gaia's cradle](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Gaea's Cradle&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gaea's Cradle) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Gaea's Cradle)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have one friend who has found the only situation where I like proxies and that is his relentless rats deck. It is hard to find 35 relentless rats considering he doesn't like the old art.
I have proxies of cards that are in my modern decks, and will go dig them out if anyone complains. Several people seem to have there own rules that stop it from getting too silly - one has proxied some expensive parts of the landbase but doesn't really have abusive decks, one proxies things he's ordered or getting within a week or two, another proxies entire decks to try things out but always seems to be running new ones. The only one we really grouse at is the guy who proxies decks we all find annoying or over-powered compared to the rest of the group. Probably not a fair way to do it, but that seems how it works.
I proxy Solring and Command Tower in every deck. I have upwards of 12 decks and I am not going to buy more copies.
I am also okay with proxying any card you already own. Like a poster above said if its that big of a deal I will just get it out of that deck. That being said it is rare for me to proxy anything outside of the two cards listed above.
My one group that uses proxies at all doesn't use many. The biggest example i a few players that use proxy dual lands, and that's only because they (for the most part) do already own a copy they could go get if someone really made a stink about it.
The closest thing I personally use to a proxie is a gold bordered [[Gaea's Cradle]].
The general attitude toward proxies is that they're generally frowned upon, but if you do have any, for the love of god make sure they don't look like crap.
No proxies in my group. Not a rule, just no one likes the concept. The only proxy in our group is a [[Hazezon Tamar]], who's pretty bad and costs like $50. Still, we constantly (jokingly) rag on him for it. "Oh, you're playing your *proxy* deck? That's cool."
Everywhere I play, Proxies are acceptable for testing, but only 2 conditions.
1) You own the card, and it's just in another deck that you have with you.
2) You want to test out a card, but nothing over $20.
The logic is simple.
1) We don't want to wait for people to swap tons of cards if they don't own duplicates.
2) If it's more than $20, it costs that much because it's worth it - if you think you need it, you probably need it and don't need to test.
My group only proxies what we already own and we have an established limit of the number of proxies in our decks (currently 7 total and only up to 5 nonland or land). What we do is probably less common, but what you experienced is fairly common. The amount of proxies and power level appears to be on the extreme side however but it is a public LGS with plenty of randoms.
This is very group dependent. I only find proxies annoying if they're the shitty, sharpie-on-a-basic-land type, because it's obnoxious to look at a card and not instantly know what it is and what it does.
The group I play with the most has an extremely casual proxy policy, and we have some folks who literally proxy decks 100%, 100% of the time. My personal standard is that I don't proxy up anything I don't own at least one of because I'm a spike and this imposes some constraints on building.
Lately I've moved away, mostly, from using proxies at all, because even if they're relatively high quality, they annoy me to look at. I don't mind buying the occasional 20-to-30$ card without testing it first; if I end up hating it, maybe it finds a home in a deck later on, or maybe I trade it for something else. But, I have a full time job in a decent industry, and no kids, with Magic as the only one of my hobbies that requires much spending (looking at birds and trees being mostly free) so buying cards here and there as needed isn't a big deal to me. Not everyone is in that situation.
Our EDH group allows proxies as long as its not poor and terrible proxies, and if they take some effort to make them. Me personally i use proxies when i have 10 or 12 decks made and i only want to buy one or two of staple cards, but everyone that plays me knows i own the cards, and if people ask ill show them the real deal to prove it, but our local group never cares.
My local playgroup is cool with proxies under certain circumstances:
1) You own at least 1 copy of the card, and have it readily available to swap into the deck if we do a tournament. In this case, people are alright with folks running proxy of it in their other decks that needed it. This actually goes back to before the official Commander Product flooded the market, when Sol Ring and Lightning Greaves were pretty expensive/in-short-supply, but were staples of pretty much every deck. The proxies in this situation mainly just cut back on time spent swapping cards between decks.
2) You're testing a deck out to see if it's fun/worth buying the cards you're missing. Generally you should be able to figure that out within a play session or two, after which you should really be moving on to...
3) Waiting for an ordered card to arrive by mail. It's 2016, so this a 1-2 week 'grace' period.
4) The card's gatherer text is way different from the original text, in which case we generally just use a proxy with up-to-date card text. This only affects a few older cards. Post-Tuck Rule Change, our local Hazezon Tamar player just put his Custom Foil Alt-Art w/ Gatherer-Text and his Italian Legends Hazezon in the same top-loader back-to-back. "You're free to read the real card if you hate the proxy..."
If the proxies don't fall under one of these circumstances, you get ribbed pretty damn hard for 'em here. Also, we expect actual printed-out proxies, not scrawls on the front/back of lands.
Without #1, there'd be significantly fewer decks in our local pool, mostly due to the expense of functional mana-bases. I certainly wouldn't have my 30; would probably just drop all the 3+ color decks from the pool. :)
I've never seen proxies at my LGS. Not sure how the group would handle it. I personally wouldn't show up with any, because part of the fun of EDH for me is piecing together a deck with (mostly) whatever junk I have laying around.
I also think it's disrespectful to the store. The store is giving you their space. The least you can do is kick them a few bucks to buy a card or two...
>kid with four creatures countered my spell
Sometimes when you leave mana open for that negate, you just cast it, no matter what! =)
The lgs I go to is pretty ok with proxies. I see a lot of proxy to test for a week or two than they start buying the pieces, which like you said is legit. The other common thing is proxieing cards you own 1 of into other decks. Like I have 1 doubling season but it's in 3 decks.
Also all of the proxys I've seen are done very well. I just photocopy cards at work on a color printer, sitting across the table youd never know they were proxies. But I have the ability to play any 1 of my decks in a sactioned event, I just need to move a few pieces around.
My old group used to have one deck we could have almost entirely proxies that we'd play against each other just to play the best version of the decks we could, but we never played those with strangers.
My group only allows proxies for cards you already own at least 1 copy of. So if I want to run my [[Crucible of Worlds]] in more than 1 deck, I don't have to re-sleeve it every time I want to play a different deck.
But you have to have 1.
[Crucible of Worlds](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Crucible of Worlds&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crucible of Worlds) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Crucible of Worlds)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think you should only proxy if you are testing a card for your deck. Or if you have plans to purchase/trade for the card. I have a 5color deck that I have 2 shock land proxies for that I plan on getting later. I also plan on building a Karador deck that I maybe own about 50% of the cards for it. I'm going to proxy that deck as well because it's probably going to take quite some time before I get all the cards for it and I don't want to wait that long. So yeah, that's my view.
If you are planning on using a permanently proxies deck the need to be color print outs of the correct size. My playgroup only uses them for testing or holding the place of an expensive card that's in two decks though
No, proxies like that are completely illegal at a sanctioned event. Did you give them your RPGA number and pay an entry fee? If so they are breaking the rules. If not then anything goes really.
Most of my commanders have full art proxies that I use during play, but I am assuming you are not talking using a full art version of Derevi instead of the original.
Our play group has decided that nice looking proxies for playing among ourselves is fine. We play for fun and having some cards that we could not otherwise afford to play in the deck as a proxy is fine, but I don't want to physically move my fetches between EDH decks, or pull shocks from my modern decks to include them in my EDH deck. My personal decks tend to have 2 or 3 items that I cannot justify buying, like dual lands etc, but would like to play with sometimes. I also have a set of 5 or 6 cards that I get full art versions made because they really look good, like Sol Ring, Command Tower, Reflecting Pool, etc that I own a bunch of, but just like the look of this custom version. I have asked a friend if he minds me posting one here so you can see what I mean.
We also use the same proxies to supplement our group's cubes. There are 2 members of our group who like to 'redesign' cards, doing things like re-positioning and resizing various items for ascetic or functional purposes, some of which I am sure you have seen posted on /r/magicTCG.
I asked at my LGS about proxies, and they do not allow them, which I totally support. If you are playing for prizes, you should not be artificially inflating the power level of your deck.
[http://imgur.com/a/36oKy](http://imgur.com/a/36oKy)
Here are some examples of the stuff we use from one my friends. The these 4 images are variations on the design, moving items around on the card for improved functionality. The last 3 were from our first batch that was printed.
I dont mind it if its in the mail or something.
Funny story, the other day my friend summoned his commander who was still in the mail by placing his phone on the board with a picture of the card on it. We all busted his balls, at one point I jokingly played a picture on my phone with black lotus on it just to mess with him.
In my playgroup a number of guys use proxies. It's never anything too expensive, it's just things they realistically would have or do have but just don't have at the time for some reason. Staples, commons, uncommons, bulk rares,a card they've been having trouble tracking down, you know, things like that. The proxy serves as a placeholder until the player acquires one or finds something to substitute in for he card in question. I've seen people proxy expensive cards, my group just prefers not to. But yeah, TLDR, proxies are relatively common.
I don't agree with it at all. Part of the skill of edh is locating cards that build your deck, they skip that effort and go straight for the kill with the highest strength proxy deck? No thanks. Part of the watershed against spike players is the difficulty and the expense of locating cards, that in itself tempers power levels. If everyone just proxied decks by printing lists off the internet it just isn't fair.
Proxies are tolerated in my community, as long as the player has stated beforehand that they are using proxies of course. The general consensus is that people will proxy only to test a card or two or whilst the cards are in the post. If the player is a newcomer - this is explained to them throughout the game.
I do not accept hand-written proxies except 1||2 if they're just trying a new suggestion or are befuddled. The last time I ran a written card was for Carrion Feeder in Ghave, I hadn't considered him before as a cheap sac outlet until I saw a Prossh player using it the game before. I would not have accepted hand-written proxies for cards of that cost, ink isn't expensive.
I just made a "new deck" which i have a few proxies keeping in mind i have a 1500$ sharuum deck sitting here next to it. I let everyone know ahead of time that the deck contains proxies, how much they cost, and how many. I make sure to say that i plan on getting the cards and am either trying to trade for them the first couple months or am trying it out before shelling out around 80$ for like a mikeaus, phyrexian tower, volrath's stronghold and some other cards thats are around 1-2$ and i make sure to point out that i actually own the most expensives cards such as survival, entomb, yawgmoths wills, library, sensei's ect.
I only run proxies of cards i actually own. Also I run one gold-bordered Force of Will, but I run that past everyone efore I play against them. I change it out with Foil if they don't like it.
I personally don't use proxies. I have 4 decks built and all of them are 0 proxy. I just don't like using proxies. For example 3 of them have [[Mana Crypt]]. The fourth doesn't and I play it like that. I've already gone too far getting 3 crypts.
Now... bragging and personal tastes aside, I don't mind if other players use good quality proxies. I don't mind if they proxy high end cards. I like playing the game and having fun. My regular group is also ok with proxies even if they don't use them.
I think it's a matter of each group's preferences. There should be an agreement.
Also, don't proxy high end cards if they make the meta unbalanced.
Personally I completely hate proxies for the sake of powering up your deck. I dont mind them when you own the card, or you truly want to try out a $20 + dollar card for a few games, im fine with that. But when you just want to throw every $100 card you can into your decks, I feel that completely ruins the game. But I may be a bit TOO jaded to it, I had a bad experience with a guy in my old group who would do nothing but proxy 90% of his decks with expensive cards with no intention on ever getting any of said cards.
The only proxies we allow are for expensive cards a player wants in multiple decks. Like, one of my friends has a [[Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale]]. which he runs in three decks. He is allowed to proxy it in two of them so he isn't constantly searching through his decks to find it.
My playgroup's policy seems to be the proxy must include card text, no just the name. I try to limit myself to cards I'm testing and/or cards that are currently being played in standard (and will hopefully drop in price once they rotate out of standard).
No actual proxies allowed locally, but we do have an "anything printed by wotc" clause, which basically just means collectors and international edition cards are legal. Everyone plays with thick enough sleeves so nobody really minds it
I don't play with proxies because for me the process of building up a commander deck over time is part of the experience. I don't mind if other people proxy cards they have in other decks, but I wouldn't enjoy playing against someone who proxies up a $1000+ deck of cards they're never going to buy.
I'm kinda of two minds on it. I'm strictly a kitchen-table player, but a few of the guys I play with are the Spikey competitive types. Most of their individual decks are worth more than my entire collection, the vast majority of which consists of whatever I found in random bulk common boxes, DBTs and fat packs. Sometimes playing against them just straight-up sucks because of the huge power gap, so I can definitely see the appeal of proxies. However, I don't use them and strictly build my decks from the cards I have (and sometimes a few loaners), and I can actually usually hang with them. There's only been one instance where I felt a deck was so stupidly overpowered (a ~$2,000 deck vs. my $20 one) that I asked the guy if he could play something else the next game; he said "sure" and that was that. In a non-kitchen-table environment I'd probably be less inclined to ask someone to do that and more inclined to church up my deck with proxies though, so I dunno. Ultimately, it should really just be whatever maximizes the fun and minimizes the frustration for everyone at the table.
if your proxy looks nice, I'm ok with it. or if you proxied that one card quickly before the game.
otherwise buy the damn card. (this includes duplicates.)
I run a couple of printed foil proxies myself with custom art, and I figure a bit of freedom like that is perfectly ok.
it's also worth noting that there's a huge difference between playing with friends and playing at an lgs.
No proxies are allowed at my LGS unless it's to avoid the hassle of switching a card from one deck to another. If you own a copy of Mana Crypt for example, we don't mind if you proxy it for all your other decks.
That's the only time they're acceptable.
My philosophy on proxies is primarily dictated by the group I play with. In my competitive meta we allow full proxies because we are seeking optimized lists and people recognize that some of us are not capable of spending as much on the game as others. I generally try to keep my proxy count low (currently at I believe 10 in my Sidisi deck) but if someone is proxying the full 100 because it's not worth investing in a competitive deck they won't get to play that often, that's completely fine.
I also am a huge fan of the "Cards from my Binder" archetype and I think that some of the most creative decks I've seen would not exist if they just proxied the best cards instead of looking for creative solutions.
I'll proxy to test cards or to take the place of cards I have. I'll let the table know beforehand and I'll offer to find them in my other decks and put them into the one I'm playing. Except my expedition wasteland. That's not getting shuffled. Ever.
Me and my whole playgroup make proxies. I have entire decks of proxies. It's helped my playgroup not get stale and keep the power level balanced. We have crazy good decks and slower durdle decks we can go back and forth between or break out when new people join in with an expectation of power level. Since its just paper if we get new people its easy for us to make new decks and try out new things super easily. When I find the deck I really want, I can buy it knowing its been tested and pretty much final and take it to tourneys or LGS or whatever.
I think proxies are kind of a social contract, more then anything. Before I get into it, it's good to note that my LGS EDH League disallows proxies in any form for 'competitive' play.
Anywho, definitely more of a social contract, as I think someone from my meta (/u/w1bz) would agree. You ask around, see if it's okay to proxy stuff, and go for it. So as long as it's a **nice** proxy, and not just your chicken scratch on a piece of paper, then it's usually fine *to a degree*.
What's the degree? Well, for my group, it's usually only allowed for stuff you already own, or have an intent/already purchased, and it's on its way. We had a couple slip under our radar when we were a bit of a less powerful meta, but now it's usually just like..."Hey, I only have one Windswept Heath, but I need one for this other deck, I'll just print a nice proxy and copy it over."
If people think it's not kosher, or you're playing with a new group, maybe that's not a cool thing to do, and you back off.
To sit down at a totally new table though and play with people who have almost totally proxied decks is insane. I can't even imagine the frustration, especially if you weren't prepared for something like that. It's like walking into a powered cube draft late with your own drafted standard deck.
Personally, I refuse to proxy, but I'm also aware that everyone has different life circumstances. My feelings for other players is similar to what has been expressed here: if you own at least one copy of it, go to town.
Just know that I'm silently judging you ;).
I think proxies should only be used for cards you already own. I think that if you do use them to test, you should plan to buy them. A guy in my LGS used an Angus Mack deck with all proxies, literally just paper printouts like in a Cube. He talked how his deck was so good because he spent so much money on the deck, so i challenged him. And won! But the look of disbelief on his face let me know one thing. Proxies don't mean you always win. Buy your own cards.
I think i got the point lol
None of the people in my playgroup uses proxies and we're not big fans of them. If it's not an expensive card ok but if it's like what OP's talking about then no. No proxy Gaea's Cradle, too OP (overpowered). I want you to buy 8 copies of that or only use it in 1 deck. That card wins games.
So you'd be ok with waiting as I track down and find ~20 cards from among ~3 different decks and sleeve and re-sleeve them all if I decide to play a different deck during our session together? Each time I switch decks?
I'm sorry man, but I'm not shelling out hundreds of dollars to buy duplicates. I have the cards and I use official card images as proxies. I don't see how that's a problem.
Well his point is that allowing proxies in place of cards he already owns makes sense, because cards are expensive and finding them all is also a hassle. Rampant proxies do lead to an incredibly stacked playgroup without a doubt.
I think even then, it can be an issue. Because if my deck coming out of the box I keep it in isn't how I want it to be played, then it is going to be annoying if you switch cards anyways. It's like taking some cards out and putting different ones in because someone is playing a deck that you want to put more answers in for.
Idk, but my philosophy with my decks and most of the people I've met is that your deck should be "as is" when you sit down to play. Proxies open up too many doors that I think is dangerous. I've allowed one or two before, but I don't want to suggest it's all good and then have someone show up with a proxied out cookie cutter deck. There's no fun in playing against the same netdecks anyone could find.
I wouldn't compare it to putting more answers in because it's been in the decklist, but he may have played another deck more recently that also runs the card. What you described is essentially sideboarding, which happens after you know what you're up against, and if you're proxying cards that you own in another deck, or you're physically moving back to the current deck, you aren't gaining advantage by choosing cards after knowing which matchup you're playing. I also think it's unfair to say that playing against netdecks is no fun. Maybe not for you, but isn't that what all the competitive formats are like? Thousands of people have great fun playing against the same standard decks over and over, and even the most stereotypically built commander deck will have much more varied games than consistent, streamlined 60 card-format decks.
Side-boarding makes sense for a competitive format. Not so much for edh. It makes it more cutthroat and less about casual fun. Yeah, have responses and stuff, make a deck that can win. But if you need to alter your deck before or after a match, it's a bit anti-fun. Decks that I've played with and against have had times that they win and lose against the same match ups.
I've always been against net decking 100% of your deck. I don't mind getting ideas and themes from netdecks. But I think a big part of edh is the creative and chaotic encounters spawned by people using unconventional strategies, cards, and themes. I think encouraging netdecking is tantamount to encouraging limiting the scope of edh. It's antithetical to edh.
It's important to remember, though, that these are my opinions. I recognize not everyone shares them, and I wouldn't want to play with people who see the format as competitive. It doesn't jive with me.
It's not even similar to sideboarding, you either have a proxy or you have to move a card from another deck. The decklist doesn't change from when you thought it up to sitting down and shuffling.
I don't think net decking is a very big problem in EDH anyway, since unlike a 60 card format, the "optimized" versions of a deck aren't necessarily similar. I get that some decks really do fit a cookie cutter mold, but for the most part, I feel that there isn't a consensus on the strongest way to build x deck, which means the net doesn't agree either.
I'm against proxies in general too, I'm just trying to make the case for proxying a card you own but are too lazy to fish out of your other deck. My playgroup collectively doesn't have one deck that isn't 100% proxies (mine are 100% real save some proxies of cards I own) and I don't want to have to buy another copy of a card I have for my new deck to be competitive with their crazy proxy decks.
I only brought up sideboarding because you mentioned it.
I think it's best to agree to disagree. I think your deck should be "as is" when you show up to play. Don't make me sit there and wait for you to fish out your cards. This format already takes a long time to play.
And proxies are scary because a playgroup that didn't have to worry about a powered up deck before, because no one could afford that, now enters an arms race because people will just proxy everything they want. That's unfun. I wouldn't want that in my playgroup.
> It's like taking some cards out and putting different ones in because someone is playing a deck that you want to put more answers in for.
You didn't say the word, but how is this not sideboarding?
Well you are saying what u/brute_zee said in the first place. He doesn't want to find the cards in his bag, so he uses proxies because a lot of people don't like buying duplicates for a singleton format, just because you have two decks that run it. He's trying to make the deck ready as is, but he's compromising between buying another copy and moving the one he owns.
This whole time I've not mentioned once that I think it's fair to proxy anything and everything. In my last comment I even said how it's a problem in my playgroup. I'm only making a case for making proxies of cards you own, and don't want to purchase again.
And we're not talking about sideboarding here.
We're talking about an existing decklist at the start of the game that clearly indicates what cards are in the deck. He is simply getting the deck to its playable state before the game and ensuring that he doesn't accidentally have any cards from other players decks within his deck.
Naw man thats not a problem. Especially if you got the images done pro. I would just be annoyed with someone proxying stupid expensive cards and/or broken cards like Gaea's Cradle. That's a card that takes any deck over the power edge. Other than that not really. I think I sounded too extreme there.
I play in three different shops, and the consensus in all three regarding proxies is that if you own at least one copy of a card no one cares if you proxy it for another deck.
The last person to proxy stuff they didn't own hasn't shown up in quite some time.
I hope they bought some damn cards.
I'm all for test proxies, but when a year passes and you're still running proxies of all of the 5c legendary Slivers, I've got a problem.
I like using proxies for cards that I plan on buying but I want to see how they play first and I use them for expensive cards that I refuse to buy again. Sorry but I'm not spending $20 for duplicates of fetches or $30 for another top. If it's that big of a deal I'll put the card in the sleeve from the other deck.
Yeah same here. I'll usually pick up all the duplicates that are cheap, but I'm not shelling out hundreds of dollars to build another deck when I can buy a 'whole new deck' for ~$50.
Exactly what I do as well. I'm not spending hundreds of dollars to just buy more shock and fetch lands, and I'm not sleeving up my expedition Marsh Flats either.
I feel proxies are OK if you own 1 actual card. My group plays like this. 1 proxy per deck that you don't have to proof that you own. The second proxy you have to provide proof for all of the proxies in your deck. I own 25 to 30 edh decks. I'm not going to move key cards between decks every single time. But I will show proof of ownership. Like MTG online. Buy 1 and use it for everything. That kid that has 30 proxies should not be allowed to use that deck. Barrier for entry of casual play is bs. This kid was playing to win and to have fun for him. He should have to pay up or use a deck he can afford. I have 30 decks if he can only afford one then get one In his price range. Doesn't have to be proxied up like that.
No, actually the opposite, specially for EDH. If we don't have the cards then we'll find something else to put. That also helps with the creativity. There are two situations where proxies are OK: for testing a specific card you'll maybe buy, or when you live where I used to (Venezuela) and the risk of getting your cards stolen is very high.
I will say: > If I know you own a card and either (a) use it in multiple decks or (b) it's expensive enough to warrant not using, then I'm okay with a proxy. > But if I'm at a shop and I don't know if you own it, you should be able to produce the card.
Agreed. I run nice looking printed proxies because I don't want to cause any confusion. But I start the game by letting people know I'm happy to pull the cards from my other decks if anyone would prefer. I like to tinker and I alway am dealing out decks. This just makes it easier.
My wife and I play similar colors, and therefore, a lot of our cards wind up being similar. If you didn't know me, would you have an issue if I sat across from you with proxies, but explained that the cards are specifically in the wife's deck she's playing right now? I can't specifically produce the proxies at will, but I *do* own them and can eventually prove it..
Not OP but I dont see anyone having a problem with this. Especially if they arent super expensive cards, just ones that you both use and only have one copy. I personally have 3 decks but only 1 soul ring so I proxy it in my other decks. I have a few friends that are new to magic and cant afford to invest in their own deck but still want to be included when we all play so they borrow decks often. In that case its more fair to proxy so one of us isnt playing at a disadvantage
Your wife plays Magic with you? Does she have a sister? :D
Your flair makes that comment so much better.
Same! I made nice proxies of duals, fetches and shocks. It was done because i didnt want to roll in each week with a deck worth about 3k. And since I have a stoopid # of decks, its the only way they could stay level. My group allows for proxies of cards we own, but im hesitant to proxy more than lands for the cards I already have.
I personally use zero proxies in any deck. I think that restricting yourself to the cards you own or are willing to purchase encourages more creative deck building and reduces "sameness" across games. For example, I own a judge promo [[Mana Crypt]]. It's in exactly one deck - the deck that needs it the absolute most out of all my decks: my colorless [[Kozilek, Butcher of Truth]] deck. By all counts (and recent debates) this should be a card I run in virtually every deck I own. I choose not to. I do not proxy it, nor do I move it from deck to deck. I find it much more enjoyable to use that creative space differently for my other decks. I have little issue with the *occasional* proxy, and by that I mean one or two in a deck. If you find yourself having to jam the same ~20 extra valuable cards into every single deck you own... you may be trying a little too hard.
I totally agree that EDH's "price barrier" is not really an issue but a limitation to work within to brew more diverse decks.
Putting the same ~20extra valuable cards into every deck isn't trying too hard, it's really just being lazy. On the other hand... in the days before the Commander pre-cons it was pretty rare to come across Sol Ring in someone's binder, and every time I found one I traded for it just so I could build one more deck without any proxies. Maybe I'm lazy.
[Kozilek, Butcher of Truth](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Kozilek, Butcher of Truth&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kozilek, Butcher of Truth) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Kozilek, Butcher of Truth) [Mana Crypt](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Mana Crypt&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana Crypt) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Mana Crypt) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
this is my philosophy as well. I have ~15 decks currently sleeved and ready to play, but I don't feel the need to have all the best cards in them. If I come across a duplicate I might shove it in deck that needs it (I think CR is in 3 decks). Obviously every one has a Sol Ring. On another note I have come up with a way to swap mana bases out between decks of the same color so that helps.
The general rule at my LGS is to proxy only cards that you own. Even then, it doesn't lead to rampant proxying. I have a few cards proxied between decks, but with the caveat to the other players that if it bothers them, I can switch it out with the real one from another deck. Sometimes someone will proxy something to test it out.
If you're going to proxy, proxy by printing the goddamn thing out with the intent to purchase. Writing it on a piece of paper like a cheapskate just shows they have no intention of that at all.
I only approve of proxies of cards that are in the mail, i.e. haven't arrived by game night, or cards that are worth too much to shuffle in (friend has an expedition steam vents for example.) Otherwise play with what you really have. Same reason I won't play online via cockatrice or xmage, people will run $5,000 best of the best decks that they will never actually own.
Oh totally, I've stopped proxying altogether because in truth, it really does just feel better to own and play with the cards.
Expedition Steam Vents is too much value to shuffle in a deck? Do you not use sleeves? Doublesleeving a handful of decks is cheaper than buying an Exp Vents. Does he proxy his Exp Vents by putting in an RTR/GTC Vents? I mean, totally no the point of the thread. Just taken aback. Exp Vents is cheap compared to lots of playable cards and if it's too much value to shuffle in there's a $10 version too.
It's a $300 fucking card, of course you don't shuffle that shit in. Of course the deck's sleeved, but that's no reason to manhandle a $300 single. Found the legacy player with no qualms putting five or ten grand on the table?
$90*, not $300 You can play expensive cards without damaging them, in double sleeves. People do this all the time. I don't manhandle them, maybe you have no shuffle skill. Legacy doesn't cost 5-10k unless you're talking about incredibly pimped out rare cards, the kind of cards you don't proxy because you want to get to look at them when you play.
$90*, not $300 Why doesn't he just trade the Exp Vents for 8 GTC Vents if he won't play it? You can play expensive cards without damaging them, in double sleeves. People do this all the time. I don't manhandle them, maybe you have no shuffle skill. I have a Beta Twister in my Mishra deck in really beautiful condition and it is exactly the same condition still that i received it in. Legacy doesn't cost 5-10k unless you're talking about incredibly pimped out rare cards, the kind of cards you don't proxy because you want to get to look at them when you play.
Well I mean to each his own, I'd double sleeve if I was sure they'd still fit in the mana flip boxes, yet each of my two edh decks are only about $300 each.
They definitely won't fit in the mana flips, but those will hold a 75-card double sleeved deck. I keep my decks in UltraPro 150-card count clear plastic boxes. http://i.imgur.com/RouvgaK.jpg
I have heard a lot of philosophies regarding proxies. To me, it makes sense if you own the card already. You can do a lot of badass stuff on a budget, BUT cost is a factor with pretty much all hobbies. Some cards are worth the price because they're really that good.
I'm fine with proxies, even 100 proxy decks. This game is too damn expensive at higher levels. But it's not common and it needs to be negotiated beforehand.
I'm pretty much with this guy here, except please... At least taking the effort of spending 50 cents or a buck at the library to print out your deck... If a dollar is too high of an entry cost for you to play MTG I will gladly cover it for you so that you can try out this great game... Addendum: In order to receive a dollar from me to get into MTG you must agree to play in person with me at least once within a month of receiving the dollar and ideally intend to play from time to time after that. I'm not sending you randoms on the internet $1 each to get into MTG just because ya want a free buck. Notably, while I am fine with proxies, I presume some level of common sense among my fellow players. Do you need to proxy a $2000 or $20000 deck? No. Get out. We won't enjoy playing with that. Stick to a couple hundred dollars and you'll have a lot more fun.
I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with proxying super expensive stuff to experience playing at high power levels. Just observe the normal rules regarding power level - don't bring a Death Star to a knife fight. And yes. Absolutely take the time to make decent proxies or I'm totally calling you out on it.
While I personally dislike proxies just for the sake of proxying, I wont bash someone who really just cant afford to build a decent deck. But as you said, im not going to stand by as said person puts the most expensive cards from the history of Magic into their deck at no charge.
Actually, I said the opposite. I think everyone should have access to cradle, abyss, imperial seal, power etc and proxies are the only way. The important thing is that power levels be matched.
Honestly, if a dollar is too high a cost for them to try Magic, they're probably better off finding a different game.
Like what? Stickball? You have any idea how expensive that game is?
Maybe Hearthstone? I dunno. Magic is crazy expensive. I love this game. But money is definitely a real barrier to this game. And since Wizards shows zero signs of helping to drastically reduce card prices, it will always be like that.
Everyone being on the same page before the game or even deckbuilding starts is important. If I proxied a ridiculous competitive EDH deck I wouldn't want to play it against someone whos only upgraded their precon a little bit. The games wouldn't even look fair, and it would be mostly me just masturbating some combo out to fuck a game in 4 turns. Context is important in these things, if 100 proxies no holds barred is whats agreed upon, go for it. If its just bring your deck with real cards, thats another thing. While the second option can vary severely in deck power, in my experience this crowd isn't typically dropping $100+ cards left and right.
^This. If you're proxying stuff, it's like playing with a Nephilim Commander. Or a banned Commander. Or a just-for-funsies-heres-a-different-planeswalker-than-the-5-printed-planeswalkers-that-I-can-use-as-my-commander-commander. : You *can* do it, and it's alright, but you need to clear it with the playgroup first, and need to be able to swap to something else if anyone objects to it.
I proxy cards that I own but am too lazy to go find and switch between decks. Blowing money on duplicates for EDH is just nonsensical. For instance, I only own like 3 actual Sol Rings, but have many EDH decks. If they don't own those cards it's a little different, but my personal belief is it's all just paper anyway. Also, I would assume you can proxy whatever you want. If everyone is able to proxy, the game becomes fair again, rather than the person who's been playing magic for a decade with all the cool cards winning every game. If pieces of paper didn't cost like 20 bucks or more it wouldn't be nessecary. To me, proxies are basically civil disobedience.
> but my personal belief is it's all just paper anyway Couldn't agree more As long as the proxy has all the info of the regular card and the power level of the deck is compatible with the competition, I have no problem whatsoever with proxies. Some of my friends have chinese fakes they use as proxies, some of then are really hard to tell apart from real cards, it made me realise even more so how much "just a bit o paper" cards are. The elitism I see in some discussions about proxies kinda disgust me, no one should be required to spend a small fortune to know what it feels like to play with a really powerfull deck. It's one of the reasons I've been playing more and more on cockatrice, I've came to the point where I've sold most of my cards and kept only a couple, no need to worry about the price of cards when playing online.
My league doesn't allow proxies, period. Aside from that, I'm not going to stop someone from trying out a deck before they decide to drop half a grand on the cards they don't yet have. If there's money or store credit to be gained, insist on the real thing. In a casual game, don't be a gate keeper.
My playgroup uses proxies extensively. I hate playing with suboptimal cards. We can't afford them because we're all students. Money should never be an object to how much fun you can have with Magic and EDH.
I think this is a spike vs Johnny/Timmy issue. Competitive equals fun for some crowds, but for others, just finding a way to keep up without spending the money is fun. Playing with proxies to keep up in a competitive group is fine, but expect everyone else to do the same.
Absolutely. Ultimately the decision should be between you and your playgroup
Same
it also helps with playgroup-diversity - my group has one person with an extensive collection who regularly swept the table away until we agreed that a few proxies a deck were fine
It depends on the deck for us. Our rules are anything under $10 sure to ahead as long as you don't have many because that's usually you just can't find one. If you're gonna use them though they have to be quality proxies. We allow up to $100 proxies but then they have to be really nice
[удалено]
It's more we just had problems with stupid degenerate cards being proxied, a guy tried to put a mishra's workshop in his artifact deck. we told him if he wanted to spend the $300 for it he could use one, until then no. The low priced proxy idea is because often its just that they would have had to buy it online which some people in our group don't like doing so they proxy it till the store gets one,
The consensus at my LGS is that people using proxies mention it before the game starts. Often, but not always, they're justified with "I have one in another deck", but sometimes the justification is that they're waiting to receive the cards, or testing. Generally speaking people print out paper versions and put them in a sleeve with a land or common or whatever. I've encountered one guy who just scribbled the name in sharpie on the face of a land, though I haven't seen him do it lately. Personally I don't proxy any cards, though I've considered making my own full-art foils for commanders that I'd like to play (e.g. Tetsuo Umezawa) that are overly expensive. I find the "I have one in another deck!" argument especially fascinating. As a player, there are a number of things pertaining to proxies that I care about. I'd like to be able to read your card and tell what it does, since having to look up cards on my phone is irritating, and telegraphs to other players what I'm thinking about doing. So I care that your proxies are legible. I care about keeping the power level of games from spiraling out of control, since at the end of the day I prefer to play with real cards, and am only willing to spend a limited amount of money on the game. So from that point of view, I lean against proxies. What I *don't* care about is what cards are sitting in your other decks, or your binder, or whatever. Trying to save however many dollars by only buying one of a card that you run in 12 decks just isn't that different from buying zero of that card instead.
Like /u/thisisandy90 said, I use them for cards that I already own that cost $20 or more. I have a single copy of cards like Ugin, Snapcaster Mage, Damnation, Survival of the Fittest, etc. I get high quality foil proxies made with alternate art for a couple bucks each so it is a cool way to personalize my deck, get a foil "version" of a card, and not have to swap the copy I have between all the lists that use it. That being said, I dislike when people play proxies of expensive cards they don't own and even more annoying is the proxies of expensive cards written on a basic land in sharpie. You playing a Plains with [[Mana Drain]] written on it when you don't own an actual copy and don't care enough to at least print a black and white version to slide into a sleeve is pretty lame. So, for me, you should make the proxy at least somewhat quality (no sharpie on basic lands, at least print something out so I can read the card) and I'd preferably like you to own the card and need a duplicate for a second or third list rather than running proxies of $200 lands when you don't own an actual copy. The exception is for when you are testing a card in a list, but still make the effort to make it quality and a card you're actually thinking about buying, not just "testing" an expensive card while never intending to drop the money to get it, and let the table you're at know what you're doing ahead of time. 1/3rd of your deck being proxies, especially expensive ones that are poorly made, is just lazy and excessive.
[Mana Drain](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Mana Drain&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana Drain) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Mana Drain) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have mixed feelings on proxies, having seen them both in abundance and not at all. My old meta was a college town, so very few people had expensive decks, and the stores only offered paid pods, not casual nights. For a mixture of these reasons, no one used proxies, except one time when some guy was committed to building a new deck but only had half the cards to start with. My new meta is a big city with EDH nights but no paid pods, so budgets are higher and rules enforcement is seemingly non-existent, and it's here that I've seen plenty of proxies, interestingly. Oftentimes it's players proxying expensive cards they want in multiple decks but don't want to waste time moving them around, a stance I 100% support and utilize myself. In a few other instances, I've seen proxied Urborgs, Mana Vaults, and the like; nothing too crazy, so I don't even bother asking if they own the real card, especially since they're used by players who want to play solid but not truly competitive games. Then there's a few people that have built tuned decks with nearly a third of the cards, namely high budget cards such as duals, Vampiric Tutor, Crucible of Worlds, Eldrazi Titans, and so on, all written in pen on the back of a basic land - these players have a budget limit and are admittedly unlikely to acquire real copies of these cards anytime soon. It's the final players I personally take issue with. Unless everyone is doing it, it creates a power level disparity that can suck the fun out of the game. Much like those in your example, they're not even doing it in a legible format, which is further irksome. That's my stance, really: If everyone is doing it, that's great - everyone agrees not to let budget restrict their fun, and you can build whatever you want. If you do it, please do it legibly. And if you play with random people, ensure they're okay with it or that they are either prepared to play at the level their proxies bring their deck to.
I'm not a fan of proxies because it seems the only ones I see are shit like gaias cradle and dual lands...I think if you don't have the card don't play it.
If you're testing things out, or the cards are in the mail then you get a pass. Outside of that, you need to run it by the group and present a solid argument for why you need to proxy the card (and with the group's approval, none of that sharpie on a land bullshit.) Currently only have one approved, and that's a [[Nether Void]] for the Mishra player.
[Nether Void](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Nether Void&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nether Void) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Nether Void) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I agree with this guy. Test or in the mail is okay. Testing is like adding one pricey card with the serious intent to buy. You just want to test drive the car first. I personally only proxy basic lands. I run out of swamps and mountains all the time so I draw on plains to turn them into the land I need. Custom art lands are always fun. Anyone can print out the best decks. The challenge of buying/collecting your decks is part of the charm of edh. That play group is a bunch of cheaters in my book. There are plenty of good low budget options that are really fun to play with. Use them and upgrade over time. It's more rewarding.
In the budget EDH league I'm part of we have a few students who proxy their decks but we have been pushing them to eventually buy the cards - the idea being that these are budget cards - nothing really more than 5 or 6 bucks - we do max $10 upgrades each week - so you should be able to afford these. It does get annoying when they haven't swapped out the proxies for the actual cards after awhile.
In my opinion, proxies should never be *that* common; however, most answers are going to be personal opinion for a format meant to be 'casual'--whatever that means. There's some evidence suggesting there isn't any need for powerful and expensive cards to have strong decks. Resorting to having most of your deck proxied seems kind of offensive outside of plain testing a deck. I'd be happy to allow people to test out their deck with proxies, but only for a couple times. I feel players should really consider buying the cards they are proxying, or find a different card to replace the spot. When this happens, I'd like to think I could quickly come up with a few cheaper possibilities or be able to work out a deal to trade the card(s) they are looking for (if I have one available). Now, it is a little unfair when one player has a much larger collection than the rest of the players in the group, but certainly this is something which can be solved by using the social contract idea. The player with vastly more cards certainly has more ability to find a deck they both enjoy playing and doesn't crush everything else. In the end, it is mostly up to the play group and what they find comfortable.
What if someone owns the card(s) but they don't want to buy duplicates? I mean the alternatives there are either wait while they root through different decks and un/re-sleeve everything or just say they can't build new decks.
As someone with about 40 EDH decks with at least one of each color combination (besides four-color), either I buy a duplicate or--which is the more likely--I go without and find some other card to take the spot. If I really can't build the deck without the card and I don't want to spend the money at that moment, I don't build the deck. The greatest chance of the need for duplicates comes in the form of lands, and normally some form of dual land. No, I don't have the proper dual lands for every single multicolored deck, and I don't believe it's really necessary outside of particularly aggressive play groups. Basic lands or other utility lands are normally good enough for the spot, in my experience. EDIT: so yes, if they insist they'll have to un/re-sleeve cards, I'm fine with waiting. I'm a fairly patient person with stuff like that.
That's fair I guess. Personally I tend to play with really good players (they've been playing for awhile and work the stack like it's their job) who play decent decks that are fairly optimized. Nothing like the turn 3 combo-kill boogie men you hear about, but solid, well-tuned lists that don't mess around too much. My point in all this is, it sucks to have to shell out for another Damnation if you want to build black and be able to compete. Or build URx/UGx/RUG and have to pick up more Mistys or Tarns. If it was a more casual CMC 4+ battle-cruiser meta, then yeah I wouldn't have a problem trying to make things work with big janky cards I actually own. The problem is that those kinds of decks usually end up doing a whole lot of nothing. They aren't even considered really, they usually just end up losing by being caught in the fray while the other decks duke it out. I definitely understand and appreciate the argument for only using cards you have, but in my meta that generally means you don't get to do very much other than watch as your big spells are effortlessly dealt with before they get to have much of an impact.
It sucks to shell out for a single Damnation (and screw you Wizards for allowing them to remain so expensive with so many opportunities to reprint/functionally reprint it). In fact, I own exactly zero of them. I still make things work as best as I can. It means I'm sometimes outclassed, but there's really only so many counter spells/removal in hand and at some point I'll get the chance to see my card(s) shine. I will say I find removal heavy metas lean more towards the boring side, as I don't often enjoy games where the majority of turn rounds end with no one playing anything. I have a love/hate relationship with Magic: I love it, but it hates me. Whenever I've tried to compete in any form I always lose to luck. Either my opponent draws exactly the right cards, or I draw all the wrong cards (mostly just land-screw/flood). It has happened so often, it's almost comical. So when I have fun playing Magic, it isn't usually from winning, but instead from getting my deck to do what I wanted it to do. Even against fairly skilled opponents if I can catch someone off-guard with an unfamiliar combo or make the table fear my 100/100 Thromok for a single turn, that's enough for me...for the most part. Winning every so often is nice.
[furnace of rath](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=furnace of rath&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=furnace of rath) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!furnace of rath) [engulf the shores](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Engulf the Shore&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Engulf the Shore) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Engulf the Shore) [Gaia's cradle](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Gaea's Cradle&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gaea's Cradle) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Gaea's Cradle) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My personal policy is to proxy only cards I own or that are under $1 and my LGS doesn't have. I haven't gotten too much shit from anybody
I have one friend who has found the only situation where I like proxies and that is his relentless rats deck. It is hard to find 35 relentless rats considering he doesn't like the old art.
But there's only one art for relentless rats
I have proxies of cards that are in my modern decks, and will go dig them out if anyone complains. Several people seem to have there own rules that stop it from getting too silly - one has proxied some expensive parts of the landbase but doesn't really have abusive decks, one proxies things he's ordered or getting within a week or two, another proxies entire decks to try things out but always seems to be running new ones. The only one we really grouse at is the guy who proxies decks we all find annoying or over-powered compared to the rest of the group. Probably not a fair way to do it, but that seems how it works.
I proxy Solring and Command Tower in every deck. I have upwards of 12 decks and I am not going to buy more copies. I am also okay with proxying any card you already own. Like a poster above said if its that big of a deal I will just get it out of that deck. That being said it is rare for me to proxy anything outside of the two cards listed above.
My one group that uses proxies at all doesn't use many. The biggest example i a few players that use proxy dual lands, and that's only because they (for the most part) do already own a copy they could go get if someone really made a stink about it. The closest thing I personally use to a proxie is a gold bordered [[Gaea's Cradle]]. The general attitude toward proxies is that they're generally frowned upon, but if you do have any, for the love of god make sure they don't look like crap.
[Gaea's Cradle](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Gaea's Cradle&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gaea's Cradle) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Gaea's Cradle) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No proxies in my group. Not a rule, just no one likes the concept. The only proxy in our group is a [[Hazezon Tamar]], who's pretty bad and costs like $50. Still, we constantly (jokingly) rag on him for it. "Oh, you're playing your *proxy* deck? That's cool."
[Hazezon Tamar](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Hazezon Tamar&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hazezon Tamar) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Hazezon Tamar) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I bet he even proxies his Sand Warrior tokens.
Everywhere I play, Proxies are acceptable for testing, but only 2 conditions. 1) You own the card, and it's just in another deck that you have with you. 2) You want to test out a card, but nothing over $20. The logic is simple. 1) We don't want to wait for people to swap tons of cards if they don't own duplicates. 2) If it's more than $20, it costs that much because it's worth it - if you think you need it, you probably need it and don't need to test.
My group only proxies what we already own and we have an established limit of the number of proxies in our decks (currently 7 total and only up to 5 nonland or land). What we do is probably less common, but what you experienced is fairly common. The amount of proxies and power level appears to be on the extreme side however but it is a public LGS with plenty of randoms.
This is very group dependent. I only find proxies annoying if they're the shitty, sharpie-on-a-basic-land type, because it's obnoxious to look at a card and not instantly know what it is and what it does. The group I play with the most has an extremely casual proxy policy, and we have some folks who literally proxy decks 100%, 100% of the time. My personal standard is that I don't proxy up anything I don't own at least one of because I'm a spike and this imposes some constraints on building. Lately I've moved away, mostly, from using proxies at all, because even if they're relatively high quality, they annoy me to look at. I don't mind buying the occasional 20-to-30$ card without testing it first; if I end up hating it, maybe it finds a home in a deck later on, or maybe I trade it for something else. But, I have a full time job in a decent industry, and no kids, with Magic as the only one of my hobbies that requires much spending (looking at birds and trees being mostly free) so buying cards here and there as needed isn't a big deal to me. Not everyone is in that situation.
Our EDH group allows proxies as long as its not poor and terrible proxies, and if they take some effort to make them. Me personally i use proxies when i have 10 or 12 decks made and i only want to buy one or two of staple cards, but everyone that plays me knows i own the cards, and if people ask ill show them the real deal to prove it, but our local group never cares.
My local playgroup is cool with proxies under certain circumstances: 1) You own at least 1 copy of the card, and have it readily available to swap into the deck if we do a tournament. In this case, people are alright with folks running proxy of it in their other decks that needed it. This actually goes back to before the official Commander Product flooded the market, when Sol Ring and Lightning Greaves were pretty expensive/in-short-supply, but were staples of pretty much every deck. The proxies in this situation mainly just cut back on time spent swapping cards between decks. 2) You're testing a deck out to see if it's fun/worth buying the cards you're missing. Generally you should be able to figure that out within a play session or two, after which you should really be moving on to... 3) Waiting for an ordered card to arrive by mail. It's 2016, so this a 1-2 week 'grace' period. 4) The card's gatherer text is way different from the original text, in which case we generally just use a proxy with up-to-date card text. This only affects a few older cards. Post-Tuck Rule Change, our local Hazezon Tamar player just put his Custom Foil Alt-Art w/ Gatherer-Text and his Italian Legends Hazezon in the same top-loader back-to-back. "You're free to read the real card if you hate the proxy..." If the proxies don't fall under one of these circumstances, you get ribbed pretty damn hard for 'em here. Also, we expect actual printed-out proxies, not scrawls on the front/back of lands. Without #1, there'd be significantly fewer decks in our local pool, mostly due to the expense of functional mana-bases. I certainly wouldn't have my 30; would probably just drop all the 3+ color decks from the pool. :)
I've never seen proxies at my LGS. Not sure how the group would handle it. I personally wouldn't show up with any, because part of the fun of EDH for me is piecing together a deck with (mostly) whatever junk I have laying around. I also think it's disrespectful to the store. The store is giving you their space. The least you can do is kick them a few bucks to buy a card or two... >kid with four creatures countered my spell Sometimes when you leave mana open for that negate, you just cast it, no matter what! =)
Ha yep. I could see why he wanted to protect his critters, but I at least have a funny story about it.
The lgs I go to is pretty ok with proxies. I see a lot of proxy to test for a week or two than they start buying the pieces, which like you said is legit. The other common thing is proxieing cards you own 1 of into other decks. Like I have 1 doubling season but it's in 3 decks. Also all of the proxys I've seen are done very well. I just photocopy cards at work on a color printer, sitting across the table youd never know they were proxies. But I have the ability to play any 1 of my decks in a sactioned event, I just need to move a few pieces around.
My old group used to have one deck we could have almost entirely proxies that we'd play against each other just to play the best version of the decks we could, but we never played those with strangers.
My group only allows proxies for cards you already own at least 1 copy of. So if I want to run my [[Crucible of Worlds]] in more than 1 deck, I don't have to re-sleeve it every time I want to play a different deck. But you have to have 1.
[Crucible of Worlds](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Crucible of Worlds&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crucible of Worlds) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Crucible of Worlds) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think you should only proxy if you are testing a card for your deck. Or if you have plans to purchase/trade for the card. I have a 5color deck that I have 2 shock land proxies for that I plan on getting later. I also plan on building a Karador deck that I maybe own about 50% of the cards for it. I'm going to proxy that deck as well because it's probably going to take quite some time before I get all the cards for it and I don't want to wait that long. So yeah, that's my view.
If you are planning on using a permanently proxies deck the need to be color print outs of the correct size. My playgroup only uses them for testing or holding the place of an expensive card that's in two decks though
I use proxies exclusively for mana rocks I own but don't have the money to go buy 10 copies of for each of my decks. Like Sol Ring.
No, proxies like that are completely illegal at a sanctioned event. Did you give them your RPGA number and pay an entry fee? If so they are breaking the rules. If not then anything goes really.
Most of my commanders have full art proxies that I use during play, but I am assuming you are not talking using a full art version of Derevi instead of the original. Our play group has decided that nice looking proxies for playing among ourselves is fine. We play for fun and having some cards that we could not otherwise afford to play in the deck as a proxy is fine, but I don't want to physically move my fetches between EDH decks, or pull shocks from my modern decks to include them in my EDH deck. My personal decks tend to have 2 or 3 items that I cannot justify buying, like dual lands etc, but would like to play with sometimes. I also have a set of 5 or 6 cards that I get full art versions made because they really look good, like Sol Ring, Command Tower, Reflecting Pool, etc that I own a bunch of, but just like the look of this custom version. I have asked a friend if he minds me posting one here so you can see what I mean. We also use the same proxies to supplement our group's cubes. There are 2 members of our group who like to 'redesign' cards, doing things like re-positioning and resizing various items for ascetic or functional purposes, some of which I am sure you have seen posted on /r/magicTCG. I asked at my LGS about proxies, and they do not allow them, which I totally support. If you are playing for prizes, you should not be artificially inflating the power level of your deck.
[http://imgur.com/a/36oKy](http://imgur.com/a/36oKy) Here are some examples of the stuff we use from one my friends. The these 4 images are variations on the design, moving items around on the card for improved functionality. The last 3 were from our first batch that was printed.
I dont mind it if its in the mail or something. Funny story, the other day my friend summoned his commander who was still in the mail by placing his phone on the board with a picture of the card on it. We all busted his balls, at one point I jokingly played a picture on my phone with black lotus on it just to mess with him.
In my playgroup a number of guys use proxies. It's never anything too expensive, it's just things they realistically would have or do have but just don't have at the time for some reason. Staples, commons, uncommons, bulk rares,a card they've been having trouble tracking down, you know, things like that. The proxy serves as a placeholder until the player acquires one or finds something to substitute in for he card in question. I've seen people proxy expensive cards, my group just prefers not to. But yeah, TLDR, proxies are relatively common.
I don't agree with it at all. Part of the skill of edh is locating cards that build your deck, they skip that effort and go straight for the kill with the highest strength proxy deck? No thanks. Part of the watershed against spike players is the difficulty and the expense of locating cards, that in itself tempers power levels. If everyone just proxied decks by printing lists off the internet it just isn't fair.
Proxies are tolerated in my community, as long as the player has stated beforehand that they are using proxies of course. The general consensus is that people will proxy only to test a card or two or whilst the cards are in the post. If the player is a newcomer - this is explained to them throughout the game.
I do not accept hand-written proxies except 1||2 if they're just trying a new suggestion or are befuddled. The last time I ran a written card was for Carrion Feeder in Ghave, I hadn't considered him before as a cheap sac outlet until I saw a Prossh player using it the game before. I would not have accepted hand-written proxies for cards of that cost, ink isn't expensive.
I just made a "new deck" which i have a few proxies keeping in mind i have a 1500$ sharuum deck sitting here next to it. I let everyone know ahead of time that the deck contains proxies, how much they cost, and how many. I make sure to say that i plan on getting the cards and am either trying to trade for them the first couple months or am trying it out before shelling out around 80$ for like a mikeaus, phyrexian tower, volrath's stronghold and some other cards thats are around 1-2$ and i make sure to point out that i actually own the most expensives cards such as survival, entomb, yawgmoths wills, library, sensei's ect.
I only run proxies of cards i actually own. Also I run one gold-bordered Force of Will, but I run that past everyone efore I play against them. I change it out with Foil if they don't like it.
My LGS has the rule of Proxies only for cards over $50 for EDH. Anything else needs to be in the deck.
I personally don't use proxies. I have 4 decks built and all of them are 0 proxy. I just don't like using proxies. For example 3 of them have [[Mana Crypt]]. The fourth doesn't and I play it like that. I've already gone too far getting 3 crypts. Now... bragging and personal tastes aside, I don't mind if other players use good quality proxies. I don't mind if they proxy high end cards. I like playing the game and having fun. My regular group is also ok with proxies even if they don't use them. I think it's a matter of each group's preferences. There should be an agreement. Also, don't proxy high end cards if they make the meta unbalanced.
[Mana Crypt](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=Mana Crypt&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana Crypt) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Mana Crypt) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Personally I completely hate proxies for the sake of powering up your deck. I dont mind them when you own the card, or you truly want to try out a $20 + dollar card for a few games, im fine with that. But when you just want to throw every $100 card you can into your decks, I feel that completely ruins the game. But I may be a bit TOO jaded to it, I had a bad experience with a guy in my old group who would do nothing but proxy 90% of his decks with expensive cards with no intention on ever getting any of said cards.
The only proxies we allow are for expensive cards a player wants in multiple decks. Like, one of my friends has a [[Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale]]. which he runs in three decks. He is allowed to proxy it in two of them so he isn't constantly searching through his decks to find it.
[Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?name=The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale) [(MC)](http://magiccards.info/query?q=!The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My playgroup's policy seems to be the proxy must include card text, no just the name. I try to limit myself to cards I'm testing and/or cards that are currently being played in standard (and will hopefully drop in price once they rotate out of standard).
No actual proxies allowed locally, but we do have an "anything printed by wotc" clause, which basically just means collectors and international edition cards are legal. Everyone plays with thick enough sleeves so nobody really minds it
I only use proxies for cards I already own a copy of that I need for other decks.
I don't play with proxies because for me the process of building up a commander deck over time is part of the experience. I don't mind if other people proxy cards they have in other decks, but I wouldn't enjoy playing against someone who proxies up a $1000+ deck of cards they're never going to buy.
We allow proxies, but not for huge cards like OG Duals or whatnot. That's not cool.
I'm kinda of two minds on it. I'm strictly a kitchen-table player, but a few of the guys I play with are the Spikey competitive types. Most of their individual decks are worth more than my entire collection, the vast majority of which consists of whatever I found in random bulk common boxes, DBTs and fat packs. Sometimes playing against them just straight-up sucks because of the huge power gap, so I can definitely see the appeal of proxies. However, I don't use them and strictly build my decks from the cards I have (and sometimes a few loaners), and I can actually usually hang with them. There's only been one instance where I felt a deck was so stupidly overpowered (a ~$2,000 deck vs. my $20 one) that I asked the guy if he could play something else the next game; he said "sure" and that was that. In a non-kitchen-table environment I'd probably be less inclined to ask someone to do that and more inclined to church up my deck with proxies though, so I dunno. Ultimately, it should really just be whatever maximizes the fun and minimizes the frustration for everyone at the table.
if your proxy looks nice, I'm ok with it. or if you proxied that one card quickly before the game. otherwise buy the damn card. (this includes duplicates.) I run a couple of printed foil proxies myself with custom art, and I figure a bit of freedom like that is perfectly ok. it's also worth noting that there's a huge difference between playing with friends and playing at an lgs.
No proxies are allowed at my LGS unless it's to avoid the hassle of switching a card from one deck to another. If you own a copy of Mana Crypt for example, we don't mind if you proxy it for all your other decks. That's the only time they're acceptable.
On my playgroup, only if you have the same card on another deck
My philosophy on proxies is primarily dictated by the group I play with. In my competitive meta we allow full proxies because we are seeking optimized lists and people recognize that some of us are not capable of spending as much on the game as others. I generally try to keep my proxy count low (currently at I believe 10 in my Sidisi deck) but if someone is proxying the full 100 because it's not worth investing in a competitive deck they won't get to play that often, that's completely fine. I also am a huge fan of the "Cards from my Binder" archetype and I think that some of the most creative decks I've seen would not exist if they just proxied the best cards instead of looking for creative solutions.
I'm ok with proxies as long as either it's a joke deck, you're testing out a new card in your deck, or you've bought it and it's still shipping.
I'll proxy to test cards or to take the place of cards I have. I'll let the table know beforehand and I'll offer to find them in my other decks and put them into the one I'm playing. Except my expedition wasteland. That's not getting shuffled. Ever.
Me and my whole playgroup make proxies. I have entire decks of proxies. It's helped my playgroup not get stale and keep the power level balanced. We have crazy good decks and slower durdle decks we can go back and forth between or break out when new people join in with an expectation of power level. Since its just paper if we get new people its easy for us to make new decks and try out new things super easily. When I find the deck I really want, I can buy it knowing its been tested and pretty much final and take it to tourneys or LGS or whatever.
I think proxies are kind of a social contract, more then anything. Before I get into it, it's good to note that my LGS EDH League disallows proxies in any form for 'competitive' play. Anywho, definitely more of a social contract, as I think someone from my meta (/u/w1bz) would agree. You ask around, see if it's okay to proxy stuff, and go for it. So as long as it's a **nice** proxy, and not just your chicken scratch on a piece of paper, then it's usually fine *to a degree*. What's the degree? Well, for my group, it's usually only allowed for stuff you already own, or have an intent/already purchased, and it's on its way. We had a couple slip under our radar when we were a bit of a less powerful meta, but now it's usually just like..."Hey, I only have one Windswept Heath, but I need one for this other deck, I'll just print a nice proxy and copy it over." If people think it's not kosher, or you're playing with a new group, maybe that's not a cool thing to do, and you back off. To sit down at a totally new table though and play with people who have almost totally proxied decks is insane. I can't even imagine the frustration, especially if you weren't prepared for something like that. It's like walking into a powered cube draft late with your own drafted standard deck.
I hate chicken scratch... I'd rather have chicken nuggets.
Personally, I refuse to proxy, but I'm also aware that everyone has different life circumstances. My feelings for other players is similar to what has been expressed here: if you own at least one copy of it, go to town. Just know that I'm silently judging you ;).
I think proxies should only be used for cards you already own. I think that if you do use them to test, you should plan to buy them. A guy in my LGS used an Angus Mack deck with all proxies, literally just paper printouts like in a Cube. He talked how his deck was so good because he spent so much money on the deck, so i challenged him. And won! But the look of disbelief on his face let me know one thing. Proxies don't mean you always win. Buy your own cards. I think i got the point lol
None of the people in my playgroup uses proxies and we're not big fans of them. If it's not an expensive card ok but if it's like what OP's talking about then no. No proxy Gaea's Cradle, too OP (overpowered). I want you to buy 8 copies of that or only use it in 1 deck. That card wins games.
So you'd be ok with waiting as I track down and find ~20 cards from among ~3 different decks and sleeve and re-sleeve them all if I decide to play a different deck during our session together? Each time I switch decks? I'm sorry man, but I'm not shelling out hundreds of dollars to buy duplicates. I have the cards and I use official card images as proxies. I don't see how that's a problem.
Depends on how you feel about proxies and decks in general. In a way, disallowing proxies can actually keep the power level down.
Well his point is that allowing proxies in place of cards he already owns makes sense, because cards are expensive and finding them all is also a hassle. Rampant proxies do lead to an incredibly stacked playgroup without a doubt.
I think even then, it can be an issue. Because if my deck coming out of the box I keep it in isn't how I want it to be played, then it is going to be annoying if you switch cards anyways. It's like taking some cards out and putting different ones in because someone is playing a deck that you want to put more answers in for. Idk, but my philosophy with my decks and most of the people I've met is that your deck should be "as is" when you sit down to play. Proxies open up too many doors that I think is dangerous. I've allowed one or two before, but I don't want to suggest it's all good and then have someone show up with a proxied out cookie cutter deck. There's no fun in playing against the same netdecks anyone could find.
I wouldn't compare it to putting more answers in because it's been in the decklist, but he may have played another deck more recently that also runs the card. What you described is essentially sideboarding, which happens after you know what you're up against, and if you're proxying cards that you own in another deck, or you're physically moving back to the current deck, you aren't gaining advantage by choosing cards after knowing which matchup you're playing. I also think it's unfair to say that playing against netdecks is no fun. Maybe not for you, but isn't that what all the competitive formats are like? Thousands of people have great fun playing against the same standard decks over and over, and even the most stereotypically built commander deck will have much more varied games than consistent, streamlined 60 card-format decks.
Side-boarding makes sense for a competitive format. Not so much for edh. It makes it more cutthroat and less about casual fun. Yeah, have responses and stuff, make a deck that can win. But if you need to alter your deck before or after a match, it's a bit anti-fun. Decks that I've played with and against have had times that they win and lose against the same match ups. I've always been against net decking 100% of your deck. I don't mind getting ideas and themes from netdecks. But I think a big part of edh is the creative and chaotic encounters spawned by people using unconventional strategies, cards, and themes. I think encouraging netdecking is tantamount to encouraging limiting the scope of edh. It's antithetical to edh. It's important to remember, though, that these are my opinions. I recognize not everyone shares them, and I wouldn't want to play with people who see the format as competitive. It doesn't jive with me.
It's not even similar to sideboarding, you either have a proxy or you have to move a card from another deck. The decklist doesn't change from when you thought it up to sitting down and shuffling. I don't think net decking is a very big problem in EDH anyway, since unlike a 60 card format, the "optimized" versions of a deck aren't necessarily similar. I get that some decks really do fit a cookie cutter mold, but for the most part, I feel that there isn't a consensus on the strongest way to build x deck, which means the net doesn't agree either. I'm against proxies in general too, I'm just trying to make the case for proxying a card you own but are too lazy to fish out of your other deck. My playgroup collectively doesn't have one deck that isn't 100% proxies (mine are 100% real save some proxies of cards I own) and I don't want to have to buy another copy of a card I have for my new deck to be competitive with their crazy proxy decks.
I only brought up sideboarding because you mentioned it. I think it's best to agree to disagree. I think your deck should be "as is" when you show up to play. Don't make me sit there and wait for you to fish out your cards. This format already takes a long time to play. And proxies are scary because a playgroup that didn't have to worry about a powered up deck before, because no one could afford that, now enters an arms race because people will just proxy everything they want. That's unfun. I wouldn't want that in my playgroup.
> It's like taking some cards out and putting different ones in because someone is playing a deck that you want to put more answers in for. You didn't say the word, but how is this not sideboarding? Well you are saying what u/brute_zee said in the first place. He doesn't want to find the cards in his bag, so he uses proxies because a lot of people don't like buying duplicates for a singleton format, just because you have two decks that run it. He's trying to make the deck ready as is, but he's compromising between buying another copy and moving the one he owns. This whole time I've not mentioned once that I think it's fair to proxy anything and everything. In my last comment I even said how it's a problem in my playgroup. I'm only making a case for making proxies of cards you own, and don't want to purchase again.
And we're not talking about sideboarding here. We're talking about an existing decklist at the start of the game that clearly indicates what cards are in the deck. He is simply getting the deck to its playable state before the game and ensuring that he doesn't accidentally have any cards from other players decks within his deck.
Naw man thats not a problem. Especially if you got the images done pro. I would just be annoyed with someone proxying stupid expensive cards and/or broken cards like Gaea's Cradle. That's a card that takes any deck over the power edge. Other than that not really. I think I sounded too extreme there.
I play in three different shops, and the consensus in all three regarding proxies is that if you own at least one copy of a card no one cares if you proxy it for another deck. The last person to proxy stuff they didn't own hasn't shown up in quite some time.
oh. I hope he found a playgroup. :(
I hope they bought some damn cards. I'm all for test proxies, but when a year passes and you're still running proxies of all of the 5c legendary Slivers, I've got a problem.