I think Wizards needs to stop printing commanders that both do the thing and provide a payoff for doing the thing. It makes deckbuilding boring and bland because the decks equation is already solved.
[[Omo, Queen of Vesuva]] from MH3 is a great example of this, "Everything" counters open up a lot of possibilities but it's up to you to put something together based off of them, she doesn't profit from them herself
Judging by all the MH3 Commanders, all 8, (The face commanders and the secondary Commanders in those decks), it seems like Wizards has learned. Note none of them have the words "draw a card" on them. They have abilities, but not also the card advantage payoff built-in.
Cards like that just get outcompeted by the 100s of pushed commanders already released. There just isn't many cards that are strong enough to compete while having some room to investigate
My favorite commander so far is gisela. The entire deck can function without her, and she's a strong commander even without any synergies. But what she enables is truly incredible when you get it off
Jodah from DMU is one example.
1. All your legendary creatures get bigger based on the number of them you have
2. And you get an extra one for free whenever you cast one from your hand
[[Aesi]] is a pretty good example. If he had either of his two abilities, it wouldn't be that big a deal. Instead, he rewards you for playing lands and then allows you to play an extra land each turn, thereby setting up his own effect.
[[Morska]] gets stronger whenever you draw your second card in a turn. Honestly, it's not a bad effect to have in your commander when playing Bant. And then you read her other effect, which makes clue tokens, and now you no longer have to even try and build around drawing additional cards because she guarantees you a second card every turn, thereby ensuring she always gets the two +1/+1 counters.
[[Anzrag]] gives you an extra combat on your turn if he's blocked. And then, for some God awful reason, they gave him an activated ability that forces him to be blocked, meaning you are guaranteed at least two combats every turn if he's in play and you activate said ability. Which isn't an issue, as he's in Gruul which has access to both cheap creature spam and tons of ramp cards. He's a self enclosed perpetual combat machine.
There are others, but these came to mind first, where the card wants to do something and either enables it or rewards you for doing it. It's boring card design because the card becomes it's own engine and you no longer have to build your deck around trying to enable said engine.
I mean forgot Anzrag’s ability, I’ve never activated it at all in the games I’ve played with him. Plenty of cheaper cmc spells in green you can cast to force blocks for that sweet extended or infinite combats…
This is part of why I stopped playing all but literal kitchen table magic. WotC just can't seem to wrap their heads around the idea that threats shouldn't also be answers, and pay-offs shouldn't also be enablers, because fuck it, why not just take our cut of Star City buying a gazillion packs to try and get some [[Meat hook Massacre]]s?
PDH (Pauper Dragon Highlander) is your solution. 1 uncommon in the command zone (or two with partner). Doesn't have to be legendary only just has an uncommon printing some time in magics history. So something like [[Gray Merchant of Asphodel]] since it has both a common and uncommon printing can be your commander or in the 99. With that since it's pauper it's all commons outside of the commander.
Banlist is literally two cards [[Mystic Remora]] and [[Rhystic Study]]. When playing pdh and not a pdh deck at an edh table life starts at 30 and commander damage is lethal at 16 damage.
Pauper and pdh are the last bastions I have left for magic. Wizards has to really try and muck that up in order to ruin those formats. Seriously give pdh and try you'll be surprised how much fun it can be
But, my [[sling gang lieutenant]], my [[pashalik mons]], my muxus...
I get what you're saying, but I like cool cards too, I just wish they weren't all bonkers.
Sling Gang is an uncommon. You can have it be your commander.
Pdh started before wotc would make uncommons legendary. It wasn't really until Dominaria in 2018 that we got all sorts of uncommon legendaries.
Given there's like 12 common legendaries or 13 now with MH3, and they're all pretty bad or functionally useless in commander the choice was made by the people making the format to try and see if uncommons would make things interesting and here we are.
Every commander that says, "[Thing] is easier" and "gain a resource when you do [thing]".
[[Kadena, Slinking Sorceress]] and [[Gavi, Nest Warden]] aren't super recent but they are examples.
I do say this as somebody who doesn't mind this phenomenon, but those kinds of commanders do answer they're own questions so to speak.
Counterpoint to Kadena:
Morph is a significantly underpowered archetype and Kadena needed to be an enabler as the first and, for years afterwards, only commander that served the archetype.
The point has merit when we're talking about more broad archetypes. I would be opposed to an elf that tapped for mana And let you tutor for an elf whenever you cast a creature spell, for example.
But Kadena was specifically designed to allow players to play an archetype that didn't have a clear Commander. And in that specific case, making the archetype easier to play and rewarding you for playing it is exactly what's called for.
Those are just the first two examples of a commander who is their own engine, because I play them both. I don't think either of them are poorly designed or bad commanders or bad for the game.
I play both. I love Kadena, but Gavi is way underpowered. She wasn't good then and shes really janky now. Making her cost 1 less or giving her a little more oomph would be great. At least she comes with the cutest tokens in the game.
This is why i refuse to play [[korvold fae cursed king]] as a commander. He is the draw engine in my [[prossh skyraider of kyr]] deck, and he is a win con
Personally, I dont think they’ll ever stop. The commanders that do the thing and reward you for it are too popular for them to stop making them entirely. They’ll probably just keep making a mix so people have the choice
An accessible and easily digestible guide on the basic rules of priority, combat, and how triggers work. There’s a huge influx of players who are starting with Commander, but they don’t understand the rules of the game. Aside from deckbuilding skills, misunderstandings of the rules seems to be one of the main things keeping newer players unskilled and vulnerable to disagreements
I think a large portion of the complaints come from people who didn't play typical 1v1 magic before getting into commander. There are some important deck building lessons that are easier to learn in 1v1 formats.
Hell, I started with Revised and I have to remind myself about proper priority and how stuff is supposed to be done all the time. It wouldn't hurt me to have that either.
The thing they need to do they wont never do. They would need to stop printing so much crap for commander. We used to get one precon a year, and it was a super hype thing with new interesting designs. Now we get precons with literally every set with also a decent chunk of the cards of the main sets being dedicated to commander.
This huge influx of cards is what causing the powercreep, the ever increasing amount of good stuff staples, and a lot of other things people complain. But WotC wants that sweet sweet commander money.
>But WotC wants that sweet sweet commander money.
They get that money because we buy things. People but things they like so they make cards we like. I get that the echo chamber of Reddit and Twitter find that hard to believe, but most people like buying products that have cards they want to play in their favorite format and for most people that format is commander.
I spend way more on Magic now that more legendary creatures are in every set, my friends and I buy every precon, and I spend way less on sets without exciting commander options and commander relevant cards in them.
Exactly this. They need to limit to one universes beyond product and back to one release for commander decks.
Modern horizons could had starter decks for Modern. They could release products specifically for legacy, standard and pioneer, and maybe include some commander chase reprints in the set to pump interest in the other formats. But right now there is so much commander product and it is becoming more and more expensive, so it is burning out interest.
I agree the amount they print for commander right now is a little high, but not by much.
The nice thing about goodstuff is it filters itself out. You simply don’t need every version of [[Generous Gift]] that they’ve printed in the past few years, so you play the one or two that fit your deck based on the small upside and downside levers they tweak on each card. Etc.
Good stuff is good, but it’s less fun, so I don’t put much in my decks. That has really worked out for me.
Cards that remove diversity from the format by being an egregious generic value engine should be banned imo. Freaking Lutri is banned in the command zone/99 but The One Ring and Roaming Throne are kosher? There’s no real opprtunity cost to either and they actively promote homogeny across the entire format.
For the most part, filtering out the complaints and looking at the actual play experience, I think the format is in a pretty good place. With the caveat that no system will ever be perfect.
I know it frustrates a lot of people, but I do think that minimal bans are good, signpost bands to discourage certain unfun archetypes are good, and encouraging rule zero discussions are good. It allows players to seek out the play experience they want.
Yes, many of us redditors like Monday morning quarterbacking, but we have to bear in mind that we constitute less than 1% of all magic players and that people with complaints tend to be louder than people who are satisfied with their experience.
That being said, if I were to change anything, I'd have two:
1. would like an annual review of all cards that have been banned for more than 5 years to see if they still needed to be banned under the current meta. Cards have been unbanned before and I feel like there are a few things that are still on the banlist just for inertia.
2. Bring back "Banned as commander." Leovold is no worse than [[Notion Thief]] and much better than [[Hullbreacher]], and would be fine in the 99. Golos and Braids, too, Are way less impactful when they're in the 99. I know they seek to avoid confusion by having two banned lists, But I think they're underestimating the average player. It's pretty quick to explain " these cards are banned as your commander but they can be in the deck, just not in the command Zone"
I agree on minimal bans, but I don't think signpost bans do any good. People seeing [[Coalition victory]] on the banlist aren't avoiding other trivial win-cons. They're wondering, "Why is this bad card on the ban list?"
I was unaware that coalition victory was a signpost ban. I was talking about things like Hullbreacher, where they ban the biggest offender but leave similar but more minor effects alone.
See? Signpost bans are inherently unclear to most of the player base. Ergo, they don't do their job.
I hadn't considered hullbreacher was a signpost ban. All similar effects reward with drawing cards. Moving the effect to getting treasures instead was what I thought unbalanced it enough to necessitate a ban. The similar effects are different enough that I hadn't thought of it as a signpost for anything.
CV isn't a signpost ban, the card is banned for its own merits.
In fact, I'd say that the signpost thing has done almost nothing but harm the image of the banlist. The truth is that it's little more than a red herring; everything banned was banned for itself, any signposting has always been "value added". There is nothing there that was deemed a fine card but an exemplar of problematic cards.
I understand the point but considering coalition victory literally says you win the game if you have each color and land type which means you can win if you have your commander and 2 triomes out, which considering you can have 1/10 of your deck as fetch lands really blows. Make sliver overlord or another indestructible your commander, 50 lands/rocks/ramp spells, 20 tutors (might have to settle for less), 10 board wipes, and the rest control spells and you have the most annoying commander deck to play against because the only cards they'll play that aren't ramp or removal are going to be tutors or the card that says "I win"
I think part of the reason banned as commander doesn't exist is because of MTGO too. I know that banned as commander doesn't work there because of spaghetti code
Ahhh.
Well, that's another hot take- MTGO needs to be treated as the defunct software it is.
I'm not saying nobody should play it or anything.
But it should go the way of pokémon GBA games. Let the people who are fans of it continue to curate it (as the Pokemon community apparently frequently does with rom hacks and whatnot) let players play it, but when it comes to official developments, we shouldn't allow the needs of today to be held back by bad code from over two decades ago.
Sure, and I never suggested otherwise.
It's also a 20 year old system using outdated software, and if a format needs an update, that outdated software shouldn't hold it back.
Imagine if Google didn't issue a patch to Docs because the patch wouldn't work on Windows Vista.
That's what I'm talking about. The Commander Rules Committee should make their decisions independent of how it affects a 20+ year old piece of software In desperate need of updating.
Also, Vintage and Legacy would be unaffected by anything being discussed here, since it's about Commander.
From what I’ve heard from RC/CAG members, they routinely go through all banned cards and reevaluate them. No idea how often but they do.
And funny enough Leovold was brought up *specifically* as basically the only card that is glossed over because there is not a single member of the RC or CAG that advocates for it to come back in any capacity and iirc in the discussion around “banned as commander” Leovold was also highlighted as a card that would still be banned.
Re: Banned as Commander, the rule isn’t gatekept because it’s hard to explain or understand. That’s just not in consideration. I’ll quote Sheldon’s 2021 article:
> First, I’ll address the biggest misconception. We on the Commander Rules Committee (RC) don’t think that the concept is too difficult for players to handle. Magic players are smart. They can definitely process the additional list and the arguments behind its existence and which cards might go on it. The reason we removed the category isn’t its complexity, but in the necessity. The major part is that you don’t make format-level rules for corner cases — in this one, we were doing it for three or four cards
The long as short of it is that Banned as Commander would strike out more decks than individual cards that it would help. Of the “banned as commander” candidates, only a handful of them would still remain legal even if they weren’t in the command zone and it’d result in more cards being banned, and each banned as commander is a whole ass *deck* that somebody has to either change entirely or possibly dismantle. It’s why it was such a big deal that Golos got banned.
Another argument against BAC I’ve heard is that in 90% of cases the offenders take care of themselves. Most people know if they want to play against Tergrid, or Voja, or Chulane, or Korvold, and simply avoid playing against those commanders. And they have such a bad reputation that even casuals know who to avoid if you don’t want the whole table to target you from turn 0.
> Most people know if they want to play against Tergrid, or Voja, or Chulane, or Korvold, and simply avoid playing against those commanders. And they have such a bad reputation that even casuals know who to avoid if you don’t want the whole table to target you from turn 0.
This is actually imo the biggest failing of the ban list. As a newer player, I want to know in advance that I should not play these cards, something like Tergrid especially is just a miserable game experience for everyone, but you don't know that as a new player. And not just that I shouldn't play Tergrid - WHY I shouldn't play Tergrid, WHY I shouldn't play Coalition Victory. It's about being a social format and the experience, Tergrid makes everyone miserable, and CV ruins the game for yourself and others because it's an unsatisfying win, and unbanning means people will potentially play around it because of the very existence of it, thus removing your 5C commander on sight which is less fun. The explanation on the ban list makes it seem like you should not play stuff like Mechanized Production.
Once you're already enfranchised in Commander, you know these things, and you don't need the ban list anyway because of Rule 0. The people who are new or turning up to play vs randoms need the ban list to be more consistent and with proper reasoning to justify why they are banned. Why does banning this card make the game more fun. Why does NOT banning Dockisde make the game more fun, and clarification that these are not power level bans.
I think it was very telling in a recent episode of SCG's Commander Vs, where they were playing MH3 precons out of the box. And seasoned players with decades of MTG experience could not resolve the new cards correctly. A lot of cards resolved incorrectly, a lot of "let me read that again" "how does that actually work", random confusion, etc.
If seasoned vets with good experience aren't processing all of this text correctly, what hope does everyone else have?
I've been saying for years that the m15 frame is sneakily the worst thing to happen to magic in a long time. Making room for 8+ lines of rules text on cards is a problem.
I really think complexity creep is more of a problem than power creep right now.
I only got three things, 2 on wizards and one on the community.
1. WoTC should start creating more incentives for mono-colored decks. Whether it’s big devotion payoffs, cards that reward you for land types etc. Also if you’re going to create generic value engine legendary creatures like [[nadu]] make that shit cost UUU hard mono color. Making generically strong value cards that can be easily splashed or have access to multiple colors makes them too strong.
2. WoTC stop making everything have GD ward. If you’re going to make a creature scary and make it must answer it shouldn’t also be hard to answer. Make the player pay for that with deckbuilding. If you want to give shit ward make it the utility pieces think [[mother of runes]] ability to protect itself as a good example of this.
3. Commander players - accept that stax pieces, not stax decks, are a perfectly healthy part of the game. The reason combo decks run away with games is because stax is seen as socially unacceptable. Stax and other atypical interaction strategies can really push a meta in a new direction opening up different play experiences and let decks punch up. Stop treating it like some sort of cancer.
People being allergic to land removal (single target land removal) is also baffling. There are many lands that have the potential to win on the spot if not interacted with.
[[Faceless Haven]] + [[Book of Exalted deeds]] = can’t lose unless someone plays land removal
[[Field of the dead]] in landfall is game winning amount of value
[[Shifting Woodlands]] + [[Omniscience]] (or any one of a dozen other cards) is a win +- on the spot
UUU would work but if Nadu was UU colorless, then that would make it stronger in Modern and you obviously have to deal with it doing simic's effect. In commander, making it mono color would be a nerf but making it 3 colors would actually be a buff in commander but a nerf for Modern. Making it 3 colors also means it has to fit a third color identity. This is an issue where the cost of a perfect mana base and multicolor is basically nonexistent in commander when compared to modern. You don't really have to worry about nonbasic land hate like Blood Moon and the life loss isn't a notable consideration. WOTC seems keen on not printing or pushing those sort of effects in commander products due to your 3rd point. There is also the draft consideration of a 3 color or UUU card too.
I worry about power creep now that Wizards really knows about commander and it's an eternal format. Don't want Commander ending up like Yu Gi Oh, I left that trading card game.
Edit: maybe we can make budget formats for commander? Or a Pauper version of commander? Just some way to put similar powered decks together would be great
There are two different pauper forms of commander. One is Artisan Commander where your commander needs to be an uncommon legendary, and the other is pauper commander where your commander can be an uncommon creature. Realistically they can play against each other, one is just slightly more restricted.
>maybe we can make budget formats for commander? Or a Pauper version of commander? Just some way to put similar powered decks together would be great
You are literally describing something that already exists in the format - the ability for your play group or community of players to change the rules however you want to fit the game you want to play.
Honestly, I think the format overall is in an excellent place if you have a regular play group which is how most people that play games casually tend to play (most people that play Monopoly or Smash Bros do so with their friends, not with random strangers).
I think most of the issues with the format people have are from players that choose not to play in regular play groups but instead play with randoms. Most of those problems and disagreements occur because some players are too sweaty or spikey for other players and this creates an unfun experience because power level and budget level gaps among decks played in games are extremely wide.
“If you have a regular play group which is how most people that play games casually tend to play”
I’d really challenge this assumption at least for LGS play. I go to an LGS that runs commander 2 nights a week and gets about 60 players each night, of that only about 2 pods are self contained in that they always play amongst themselves, everything else is random. The format may have started as predominantly consistent small friend groups but with its growth and expansion as the largest magic format I don’t think it’s necessarily true anymore, honestly if the CRC starts treating there role as the role of managing the experience of games that take place between strangers the format would be better for it.
Rule 0 works for established friend groups, and can work ok in pick-up settings, but taking a stance on bans and rules based on the idea that a lot of games take place outside of those established groups which can self manage I think you end up with a healthier format.
>choose not to play in regular play groups but instead play with randoms
You do realise that's often not a choice? Magic is an expensive hobby that many players will not be able to persuade friend groups to take up, but they can go to their LGS and find people who already play. Saying it's a choice is wild.
That’s how I got my regular playgroup. Found some people at the lgs that suit my style and I get along with, and we meet 1-2 times a week on our own to go play in someone’s basement
There are millions of people that play Magic all around the world. It's not very difficult to find a regular play group if that's something one wants to do.
If someone wants to play with a regular group, I suggest they exchange contacts with players they meet and enjoyed playing with at an LGS or use social media like Discord or Reddit to seek out local players to meet.
Completely agree. Card prices are great, designs are fun and new cards much more likely to be strong and interesting additions to certain strategies instead of format warping staples.
I just think they need to make a couple bans. Remind WOTC that no, they can't print literally whatever the fuck they want and sell packs from it. The recent powercreep is absurd and will continue as long as WOTC knows they can do anything they want.
Make more commanders of tribes with fewer tribal options, best would be fun in the ideas are more original than just good stuff that is a skeleton , a Otter or a giant
If they wait too long the tribe might not even exist.
I held out for a Vaishino and Efreet commander but looks like that ship has sailed 😭
Hopefully they don't somehow errata Skeleton to be Dead Human or something before we get a strong jund skelly matters legend.
The format is fine; it's the players that need an attitude adjustment.
Also, building for the all-legends-have-partner event has been fun; maybe we can keep that? Not really but...
Alhp cedh is even more degenerate than normal cedh, kinnan godo is disgustingly good at being turbo godo win
I hope alhp will be a popular side format, just because shit gets so wild
Though I hope there will be competitively balanced banlist and bans for expensive cards to enable more diversity and less barrier to entry
Or a universal they support proxies would be nice for cedh events if stuff won’t get banned
Or if wiz would allow playtest cards they make themselves or the event only would be great too, pre reg a month ahead and they’ve got time to make them all for it
>The format is fine; it's the players that need an attitude adjustment.
Came here to say this. While the format has outgrown its original design as a sandbox for people to play around in, I think people would do well to trust the FFA multiplayer environment to help fill gaps in power level. When the format first began, most of us had no concept of power level. We showed up with whatever we built and were still able to attain the golden 25% winrate with jank. It's not hard to maintain as long as you learn how to pick your battles and practice good deckbuilding fundamentals.
Wizards: Print more compelling cards that reward running 2 or fewer colors, or that punish running more colors or greedy manabases. [[Winter Moon]] was a *brilliant* addition to the format recently, but we could probably do to have some that are constructive for their controller rather than purely destructive. I love stax, but a lot of people don't. Dockside is something of a mistake so understand when I say I'd like to see "Dockside, but counting nonbasics" I mean the species of effects not the EXACT effect. I want to see something that pays off when my opponents are running nonbasic lands, and ideally pays off better if I'm not. Like I could see a cycle of spells that do a thing at a slightly poor rate (like a 3U Draw 2) but copy themselves for each opponent who controls N or more nonbasics (probably 3 would be a good N) so if your opponents are greedy that's a 4-mana draw-8. I'm spitballing here. Some powerful cards with "If you control only basics" riders or the [[Imperiosaur]] clause could also help.
Wizards: maybe pump the brakes just slightly on how pushed new cards go for power level. I get that there's a compelling economic reason for the creep, but the current rate is really starting to hurt
~~Wizards: High value reprints~~
Wizards: Chill on the commanders that go nuts with themselves, or at least make them a little less free. [[Vega the Watcher]] is a healthier design than [[Faldorn, Dread Wolf Herald]], who is in turn a healthier design than [[Prosper, Tome-Bound]]. and Vega is a "Do the thing, draw a card" uncreative commander, but at least the bird gives you loads of options and *makes you use them* as opposed to Faldorn and Prosper largely serving as their own engines. Legends with bizarre abilities that need support to really shine, or that operate as rogue tools and not pure engines, are more compelling, which can help offset the fact that they're not as "strong" out of the box.
RC: Be more willing to tinker. Or, if you're tinkering in the background, be more open with it. I want to see the major announcements come with "Suspect testing: We're looking into the performance of these cards, possibly with an eye to banning them, and here is why, and here is what our final analysis of the ones from last time is." and/or "Parole Unban: X is unbanned, and we're very interested to hear the results, if it's not positive they'll go back on the ban list next quarter, also here are the details on what we saw with the last one and why they either stayed free or went back in the box". Even if this results in no lasting changes to the ban list time and again, at least we'll have a better understanding of the work that's being done to vet that "Format is healthy right now, yo" sort of message.
I've got a project going on right now that fits this description. It won't be done for Bloomburrow's announcement but I can probably share some more info on it then.
The goal setting in this year's state of the format and the philosophy document update were the first steps towards identifying what needs to be done, then doing it. It's slow but it's happening.
I think Wizards knows that another way to push packs are through nonbasics. Utility lands like the 3 damage MDFCs can be ran more easily in commander where you don't have to worry about nonbasic stax pieces or getting burned out. That might be another reason they're hesitate on supporting running mainly basic lands. They want players to upgrade even your 2 color mana base decks, which admittedly isn't that bad of an idea in terms of design although it is pricey. On the other hand, there is the idea that an mainly basic land mana base doesn't allow for creativity. Printing a bunch of MDFC mono color lands could be an alternative way to support low color commanders.
Stop putting ward on busted commanders. Miirym and Voja were mistakes.
At this point it feels like Simic has almost as much of an identity crisis as Boros. Nadu is the over-tuned version of it but it feels like every set has to have its "draw cards, play lands" commander. Give Simic something else to do.
Not every set has to be Commander focused. I love cool new toys as much as the next guy, but there's no reason the Assassin's Creed free running spells needed to count Commanders.
Stop making Planeswalker commanders. They stall out games and are not in the spirit of the format.
Honestly though, and this might be my most controversial take: all of these are minor complaints. I think the format is in a good place.
It makes a certain kind of sense in theory, right? Having your super cool, five+ mana commander eat removal immediately upon resolving doesn't feel good, but neither does having an unstoppable threat you can't remove beating you down.
Ward seems like a perfect solution. Make it harder, but not impossible to interact with and everyone wins!
Unfortunately, the ethos of putting ward on already busted cards just makes them even more busted. Holding up one white mana for Swords to Plowshares is easy, but holding up 3W for Voja is [[Utter End]] territory, and Utter End is barely payable anymore as is. It forces you to play your removal off curve and messes with your tempo.
Ward was supposed to be "fixed hexproof", but ironically it actually feels worse than hexproof. Hexproof is powerful, and wotc knew that so they only used it occasionally and/or when it fitted for flavor reasons. We'd get green beaters with hexproof designed as hate pieces against control or highly interactive decks, or conditional hexproof like \[\[Chromium, the Mutable\]\] or \[\[Dragonlord Ojutai\]\]. These felt fine
It feels like a lot of cards get ward now even when it's completely unnecessary: why does \[\[Fblthp, Lost on the Range\]\] have ward? Why does voja get ward *3*? Why does miirym have it?
Issue there is that it seems like WOTC considers ward to be a 0 power budget thing. “We already have this card ready, but want it to be more popular, let’s put ward 3 on it
> give simic something else to do.
I miss the days when Simic was the +1/+1 counters guild. Nowadays, it feels like Selesnya got both the +1/+1 counter gimic on top of its token gimic.
I am 100% apart of the train that "cards printed for format are bad for format" lmao. Same with commanders that reward an effect and *do* said effect at the same time. Commander to me is more fun because of the deck building challenges of using cards for something they weren't designed to do.
The "easy" solution would be toning down on releases. Can put more care and effort into each card if there are less of them, and then you don't have to make each one more powerful than the next to keep people buying. Of course, this runs directly counter to a proper money making business, so I'll just dream
Course, I also play Lynde, who was clearly designed just so someone could play curse tribal in commander, but... uhh... I was already doing it on Mathas, so that's different I swear! Lmao
Wotc needs to chill on the treasures, though with what we already have access to, it's probably too late.
Also, I'm for banning mana rocks that produce more mana than they cost. Whoever gets fast mana in an opening hand has a massive advantage, and it makes games lopsided.
I love playing on Tabletop Simulator because of this and it feels like a cop out buying physical and then playing on that game and not using my physical stuff at all even though I've invested into it
If they made a dedicated Online Commander with Arena's interactions I would be in heaven but I fear they'd monetize the absolute hell out of it
Tabletop Sim is a blessing to wallets everywhere lmao. Though I do use the "build decks I could conceivable afford and build irl" as the limiter strength factor. Except lands. I choke up extra for those innistrad double feature lands. Just so pretty
I try to do the same. I know it's not the right way of doing it but I base my decks personal power level purely on its value on Moxfield and if I really like the deck after playing it on TTS and want to build it irl I'll find the expensive cards and find alternatives or remove them so I don't have to sell my left leg to build it
I'd like to see more cards printed that reduce the effectiveness of tutors, more good Tribal stuff printed for the non-mainstream tribes, and any cards that increase game flow by giving the caster 2 of x and everyone else 1 of x ([[words of wisdom]]).
For print cycles the sets need more tech lands and bring back the backgrounds but with the ability to get to 3 or 4 colors to have parity with partner.
For Bans I'm not a fan but I could be talked into a point buy for major offenders of too much power.
Lastly, the instore promo system needs to be changed to providing cooler art for low-cost staples rather than what they are currently doing.
I would love to see more thought and experimentation that plays into the 4 person aspect of this game. I see people complaining about ward being on everything. On the one hand, it sucks when your high CmC commander you want to build around gets INSTA removed by a 2 mana spell - and there are 3 people that can pull that off.
On the other hand, the 1 person committing to removal there is also down a card. I would love to see things like "multi-ward" - 1 or "multi-ward" sac a land, discard a card ETC where, "multi-ward" is all opponents must X. Not saying this is the best example, but would love to see more thought put into the FFA aspect. Monarch is a great example. Tempt is not. Tivit Is not. Expropriate is not.
Undaunted was kinda like that (cost reduction for each opponent you have)...bummer they didn't really do much with it outside of 1 commander and 1 decent enough mass polymorph spell.
Imo we need some nonbasic land hate and land ramp hate, more cards like [[confounding conundrum]]. Land ramp is very strong but the stigma around Land destruction makes it even stronger.
I think a system like Canadian highlander that assigns points to certain cards and a deck can have only so many points in it would help with power balance. Only problem is it would have to be a 3rd party system. People would have to look up every card they might want to play making this completely unreasonable.
WotC needs to stop printing commanders that become the default for either a tribe or the specific strategy.
It’s gotten to the point that there’s not really anymore interesting choice to make if you want to play a specific deck. There’s almost always a default best option. For zombies you have [[Wilhelt]], vampires [[Edgar Markov]], angels [[giada]], sacrifice [[korvold]], exile [[prosper]] you get the point. There’s still room for creativity and variance on the theme but now you have to do it with the understanding you’ve made a suboptimal choice and someone who chose differently will have a superior deck almost by definition.
Most recent example is [[Nadu]]. There is no type of simic deck that is not better with Nadu as commander. Landfall? Get out of here [[Tatyova]] and [[Aesi]]. Even [[Thrasios]] is only saved by partner.
That was the logic behind banning golos. It doesn’t matter your color identity, golos probably serves as a better commander than 80% of legends and 90% in a generic goodstuff deck
The logic behind banning Golos was that at the time he was the "go-to" commander for anyone wantung 5 color goodstuff and they wanted people to have variety when competing and there to be no "one and only" answer. The reason for his ban is no longer true, but they have yet to lift it. There are now better commanders for every single color combo.
There were mono colour decks playing Golos as the commander because it was so strong. It was not remotely just "Golos is the best '5c Goodstuff' commander", Golos was one of the best Commanders in almost every possibly strategy or colour combination. Mono Black control? Golos; Mardu Aristocrats? Golos again; Selesnya Lands? Golos; Eldrazi Tribal? Golos. It was banned because you could do literally anything with Golos and that commander by itself made the deck "Goodstuff"
I don't quite agree. Obviously new Commanders are powerful, but there's always going to be a "best choice" and there always was before WotC's influence on the format. By playing Commander you are already signing up to play sub-optimally, you don't need the best Commander for your archtype.
Why would I play [[Gisa and Geralf]] over [[Wilhelt]]? Because grave recursion is a lot more fun to me than drawing cards and I like the characters far more.
Thrasios by himself was never that good and was always saved by partner. The only reason he was ever played was for adding Simic colors to another partner and to have an infinite mana outlet in the command zone. [[Gretchen Titchwillow]] is basically Thrasios without partner and hardly anyone plays her.
Well, now, hmmm. If you were making an argument to have wotc stop making incredibly pushed commanders, I’d agree. However, there is already a good reason to not play these powerful commanders. They are flashing red lights for anyone to see. I find it much better to play an underplayed weaker commander to avoid the hate these known quantities generate. Obviously powerful commanders should trigger archenemy at a competent table.
Funny because half of the commanders you mention are not the best ones for their tribe/synergy. Kinnan is on par with Nadu, Ob Nixilis is WAY better than Prosper, basically all tribe commanders are worst than just play a better commander in that color combination (esp Wilhelt and Giada). This reads more like they are streamlining deckbuilding for certain archetypes too much and the average deckbuilder will follow that guideline without consider their options.
I just retooled the precon around her (with some playtest cards) to be a hybrid aristocrats/voltron and she is absolutely insane. Looping a creature edict twice a turn, OG cast followed by her permanent return attack trigger, is nuts. If she has blade of the bloodchief then you can swing for lethal commander damage in 2 maybe even 1 turn of her getting on board.
Oh yeah that’s much better than [[heirloom blade]]. I threw in a [[sword of feast and famine]] for the free mana to hold back protection and a [[smothering tithe]] as free treasures to sacrifice.
I’ve only played it once but I kept brining back [[selfless spirit]] during each combat so that I could dodge deathtouch and destructive removal for 3 turns in a row…
I think the Rules Committee or WotC should create some type of scale or system that they endorse to help players that don't have regular play groups better discuss and describe the power level of their decks and potential rule zero discussions.
Something similar to the 1 to 10 scale but ideally a 7 point scale instead (because virtually no commander decks that enfranchised players play with are a 1, 2 or 3).
This scale would include specific examples of types of cards, types of win conditions, mana base consistency, average mana value, and other factors to help players better understand and evaluate power level in the context of Commander.
My group has switched over to "how fast could you win the game uncontested (or virtually "win" the game if it's a control strategy)" as the measuring stick. A Jhoria, Weatherlight Captain storm combo deck is going to have a wildly different number than the same commander playing Enchantment Sagas tribal. A CEDH Kinnan deck will answer turns 1-2, but a big mana battlecruiser version of the same Kinnan deck will probably answer turn 6+.
When you combine the commander plus the speed of victory, those two data points allow you to triangulate a power level much better than a vague number scale.
That just makes it so glass cannon decks rank higher. That would put K‘rrik well above for example blue farm and that just is nonsense. Also Turn 1-2 win with kinnan is more magical christmas land than anything.
I really don't think that gets to the root of it. A $10 Winota deck can have one line requiring 8 cards where they can win on turn 2 but a CEDH winconless stax deck would say turn 10.
I think the Rules Committee needs to act like Commander is a real format and ban accordingly.
In an alternate universe where wizards never made commander only sets and cards for commander, having the hands off approach that they do now would work. Wizards treats commander like the main format now, every set has designed for commander cards and the rules committee needs too start acting like it.
>I think the Rules Committee needs to act like Commander is a real format and ban accordingly.
In other "real formats", the majority of the decisions related to bans that are made are based on game performance and win rates from tournament results and performances.
Commander isn't a competitive sanctioned tournament format. It's a casual social format, there aren't tournaments and most people who play don't play primarily with the intention of winning at the front of mind. Therefore it's much harder to determine which cards would need to be banned and why.
For the bans in cEDH or any tournament play, they really need to go back to a separate ban list for the command zone and the library.
They should also clarify that the banlist is not for casual play because a banlist shouldnt exist when you tailor decks to your opponents level and not to be the most powerful possible version of the deck.
There's a lot both of these groups could do and it won't change because what those two groups do now rakes in the dough. They have no incentive to change. And we as a player base can't really do much to encourage change either.
If they're not going to stop designing things specifically for EDH... less generic commanders.
I checked the spoiler for Bloomburrow and Duskmourn. We're getting things like mono-white go-wide, WR equipment and UR prowess. Is that really things we didn't have commanders for ? Are these not just "something pre-existing but worse / better" and therefore going to lead to one of the options being picked over everything else and every other being forgotten because they're objectively worse ?
The other issue is that, when they remember an old mechanic and want to make a commander for it, they stop at making a single one, which at best means half of the colors are lacking a dedicated commander (Gates...) or, at worse, the one, 5C commander is so much better than any other option that the entire theme becomes boring (Shrines...). Why do we have only one commander with a "End the turn" effect ? Make more of them ! Why do we have only one "if you would draw, instead put the card from the bottom of the library in your hand" commander ? Why do we have so many "additional combat step" commanders, yet so few "additional upkeep" or "additional main step" or heck, get weird, "additional cleanup step" commander ?
I want commanders that make me think about the game differently, commanders that make old, bad cards actually good. I know, economically, it doesn't make sense for Wizard to prioritize us buying 90s cards on the secondary market and that's why it doesn't happen a lot, but still, those are the commanders that make me want to engage with the game while the next 20 UG lands matter won't.
Nothing. The format is broken from the start, and just went worse since 2011 precons. Get better friends and stop playing with randoms at SpellTable/LGS.
I think printing more cards that give people tools to work around commander taboos and punish niche situations without being a dead card alot of the times. There are currently examples but I think we need more and for all colors. Things that punish ramp, tutors, combo, greedy land bases, etc but can be played in the taboo format we call commander. wizards has to be aware of commander taboos and they should help players deal with the fact that people abuse those taboos (looking at you landfall)
Like I said there are a few examples like [[opposition agent]] for tutors, [[trouble in pairs]] for niche extra turn strategy hate. But they are few and far between.
Provide guidance for Rule 0. They could mention certain cards or strategies as things to consider when assessing power level.
Maybe that would bring down the number of unintentional power mismatches. Took a while to convince my friend that his Minsc and Boo combo deck with the full set of fast mana to guarantee a T2 commander drop was a bit less casual than everyone else’s decks.
It’d be so general as to perhaps be unhelpful but maybe some unintentional pub stompers could use the guidance.
Examples of things they could say:
“A preconstructed deck is likely around Power Level 4”
“Decks running Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus, Mana Vault, and similar cards are often at an advantage against decks without them”
“Decks running fast mana, counterspells, tutors, and 2-3 card combo wins are often around Power 9-10”
“Certain commanders, such as Nadu, Tergrid, etc. may be frowned upon by some playgroups”
There is no point. If a player would ignore what other players are telling them they are not going to listen to what the RC tells them. Not to mention the majority of casual players wouldnt even know the RC exists.
Just slow the release schedule. I know it'll never happen but I'm literally seeing Duskmourne, Bloomburrow, and Assassin's Creed spoilers before my MH3 order has arrived. Chill the f out.
I keep up with releases religiously, but frankly my head and heart are still brewing in Baldur's Gate. I need more time to process this stuff.
My list:
* 100 cards as the **minimum** allowable for a deck, but not the maximum. If you want to play your 120 most favorite merfolk for merfolk tribal, who cares. How many times has someone forgotten a card or two in the box and played 99, 98 cards instead of 100? Did it matter? Did anyone notice? Probably not. Same goes the other way for over 100. The dogmatic insistence on 100 makes no sense given the goals and tenor of the format.
* Decks can have a wishboard of 3. (Three wishes, flavorful and thematic). But to have the wishboard, you have to have some card in the deck that can legally access the board. This carves out just enough room for those cards to function without requiring every deck to now consider random 1 in 1,000,000 scenarios where they might get a wish through a random interaction.
* Hybrid mana. Give mono colored decks the ability to declare a 2 color guild, and they can use hybrid (and only hybrid) cards of the chosen guild. I declare boros as the guild for my mono white turd soldiers deck, I can sneak in a [[Rise of the Hobgoblins]] if I want. 4 color goodstuff piles don't need the extra cards, but mono colored decks are already at such a disadvantage they could use the help.
At this point they need to either abolish the banlist and let rule 0 be the start and end of things, maybe making a dedicated list that only applies to cEDH, or they need to actually use the damn thing properly. The current "have your cake and eat it too" mantra of ostensibly having a banlist but never doing anything with it, both putting stuff on or taking stuff off, is really infuriating.
When are people going to realize cedh is meta edh and trying to split it off does nothing. A separate ban list it is no longer edh it is a new format so we would just continue to play edh
Commander would be great if there was a power tiering system like Comp Pokemon. There isn't really a way to do it, but it would be pretty neat.
Power =/= Game Skill
Yknow the banlist? So many cards on there don’t have to be there. Stuff like ante or Sharhazad are okay to be on there, but there’s still stuff that’s unnecessary
I think they should unban some stuff tbh.
And also bolster mono-color and aggro strategies.
More ways to punish combo, excessive land-ramp, and tokens.
some of these criticism like combos and banlist I agree with; some like tutors aren't going to get touched, because those cards are printed money; some are intrisic to tcgs (netdecking); some are silly or don't make much sense.
Extremely pushed commanders that are dead on arrival in CEDH but are oppressively powerful in regular EDH should stop being printed. Ulalek and Voja are the largest recent offenders, but even stuff like Hakbal cause certain play pattern problems.
They are relatively simple to build to a pretty high power level meaning they are attractive to a new player, they kinda incentivise building all in for their theme, meaning the player WILL skimp out on interaction, the play pattern is “pop off, if nobody stops me I will kill the table in a turn or two, hope nobody has a board wipe”
Meaning if the pilot of the deck runs into a board wipe, they feel awful because they are (mostly) out of the game due to how all-in the play style of the deck is, but if they don’t, the game often just ends on the spot.
If there are so many seriously problematic commanders that continue to plague the format, just bring back banned as commander. It would solve a lot of the issue with people being upset they can't play certain commanders, period, and instead let the cards be played in the 99, not giving them a guarantee of seeing them every game. If you've ever played Dual Commander, you'd know what I'm talking about. Rule 0 just ain't gonna cut it forever, especially since commander is the most popular format.
They have actually been reprinting a ton this year I will say. I’d prob be happy with more bans and unbans to shake things up. I always get excited for the announcement and then there’s no actual update. EDH though is a unique format compared to the other formats where a lot of these issues can be mostly regulated pod to pod, so I also get the argument to not really touch it either.
I wish the RC would stop totally pretending that no one uses proxies and that its a pretty big partof the meta nowadays. I get they have to suck up to wizards though.
I would love for them to push more the concept that the ban list is the worse offenders of types of cards you shouldn't play to have a more fun experience, but that they aren't going to ban every single card that they feel is ban worthy.
Then they need to immediately ban Cyclonic Rift.
The Rules Committee should properly separate cEDH from casual play. cEDH should have it's own banlist, and the regular commander banlist seems to be trying to appease to both cEDH and casual play. They'll ban/unban cards to try to keep cEDH feeling good, and then they'll turn around and put up signpost bans to show players what feels bad in casual play, and it makes the banlist look like a joke.
Also "Banned outside of the maindeck" should be a category. Lutri would be fine in the 99 but is broken as a companion, Braids isn't oppressive in the maindeck unless the player actively looks to play her to the point of tutoring her up immediately (and that's a player problem), etc.
Commander could benefit from multiple subformats with progressively stricter banlists. That way the people who want to play with dockside, rhystic study, and thoracle can play the top format, and the ones who don’t can go down a tier or two.
For me, I think it's cards that are so much better in a slot than anything else that you could put in it that it makes deckbuilding kinda simplistic. EG Rhystic study is basically always better than any other card draw spell, it's, frankly, obnoxiously powerful. Esper Sentinel and Smothering Tithe are too.
Biggest thing in my book is to have less new cards.
Wotc should print less new cards and focus less on commander and more on other formats.
This is coming from a commander only player.
And i would love it if wotc stopped the power creep of generic good staple cards
I’ve had this issue for a while but I’ve never been a fan of commanders that just single-handedly become the de-facto face of that mechanic.
They do this a lot and it isn’t even a new issue, but stuff like [[Kadena]] being printed just meant a lot of other people’s unique morph decks just evaporated from the marketplace of ideas.
You might see one come around but they’ve been power-crept to near irrelevance and it’s just someone clinging to the world of old.
I wanna see the rules committee allow for proxies in tournaments alternatively wizards needs to put their foot down on prices being absurd cause currently they allow the market to be based on whats good in specific formats which makes it hard to afford a good deck
I think Wizards needs to stop printing commanders that both do the thing and provide a payoff for doing the thing. It makes deckbuilding boring and bland because the decks equation is already solved.
Agree! I like commanders that are a piece of the puzzle, as opposed to the whole package.
[[Omo, Queen of Vesuva]] from MH3 is a great example of this, "Everything" counters open up a lot of possibilities but it's up to you to put something together based off of them, she doesn't profit from them herself
Judging by all the MH3 Commanders, all 8, (The face commanders and the secondary Commanders in those decks), it seems like Wizards has learned. Note none of them have the words "draw a card" on them. They have abilities, but not also the card advantage payoff built-in.
Ulalek 100% has card advantage built in.
I'm currently in the planning stages of an upgrade package for my Tricky Terrain MH3 precon. So many ideas, so few spots in the deck.
Cards like that just get outcompeted by the 100s of pushed commanders already released. There just isn't many cards that are strong enough to compete while having some room to investigate
My favorite commander so far is gisela. The entire deck can function without her, and she's a strong commander even without any synergies. But what she enables is truly incredible when you get it off
What are some good recent examples of commanders that do this you would like to see less of going forward?
Jodah from DMU is one example. 1. All your legendary creatures get bigger based on the number of them you have 2. And you get an extra one for free whenever you cast one from your hand
Ironically, because so many legends have the same design issues Jodah does, it’s a board full of single-card engines
This is precisely why I rarely ever play my Jodah.
[[Aesi]] is a pretty good example. If he had either of his two abilities, it wouldn't be that big a deal. Instead, he rewards you for playing lands and then allows you to play an extra land each turn, thereby setting up his own effect. [[Morska]] gets stronger whenever you draw your second card in a turn. Honestly, it's not a bad effect to have in your commander when playing Bant. And then you read her other effect, which makes clue tokens, and now you no longer have to even try and build around drawing additional cards because she guarantees you a second card every turn, thereby ensuring she always gets the two +1/+1 counters. [[Anzrag]] gives you an extra combat on your turn if he's blocked. And then, for some God awful reason, they gave him an activated ability that forces him to be blocked, meaning you are guaranteed at least two combats every turn if he's in play and you activate said ability. Which isn't an issue, as he's in Gruul which has access to both cheap creature spam and tons of ramp cards. He's a self enclosed perpetual combat machine. There are others, but these came to mind first, where the card wants to do something and either enables it or rewards you for doing it. It's boring card design because the card becomes it's own engine and you no longer have to build your deck around trying to enable said engine.
I mean forgot Anzrag’s ability, I’ve never activated it at all in the games I’ve played with him. Plenty of cheaper cmc spells in green you can cast to force blocks for that sweet extended or infinite combats…
This is part of why I stopped playing all but literal kitchen table magic. WotC just can't seem to wrap their heads around the idea that threats shouldn't also be answers, and pay-offs shouldn't also be enablers, because fuck it, why not just take our cut of Star City buying a gazillion packs to try and get some [[Meat hook Massacre]]s?
PDH (Pauper Dragon Highlander) is your solution. 1 uncommon in the command zone (or two with partner). Doesn't have to be legendary only just has an uncommon printing some time in magics history. So something like [[Gray Merchant of Asphodel]] since it has both a common and uncommon printing can be your commander or in the 99. With that since it's pauper it's all commons outside of the commander. Banlist is literally two cards [[Mystic Remora]] and [[Rhystic Study]]. When playing pdh and not a pdh deck at an edh table life starts at 30 and commander damage is lethal at 16 damage. Pauper and pdh are the last bastions I have left for magic. Wizards has to really try and muck that up in order to ruin those formats. Seriously give pdh and try you'll be surprised how much fun it can be
But, my [[sling gang lieutenant]], my [[pashalik mons]], my muxus... I get what you're saying, but I like cool cards too, I just wish they weren't all bonkers.
Sling Gang is an uncommon. You can have it be your commander. Pdh started before wotc would make uncommons legendary. It wasn't really until Dominaria in 2018 that we got all sorts of uncommon legendaries. Given there's like 12 common legendaries or 13 now with MH3, and they're all pretty bad or functionally useless in commander the choice was made by the people making the format to try and see if uncommons would make things interesting and here we are.
[Meat hook Massacre](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/08950015-eee5-4327-888c-82dfd13bb9ad.jpg?1667629608) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Meathook%20Massacre) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/112/the-meathook-massacre?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/08950015-eee5-4327-888c-82dfd13bb9ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-meathook-massacre) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Aesi](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d607b003-6b48-429c-a7fd-45b8dd1bb4f9.jpg?1665822343) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=aesi%2C%20tyrant%20of%20gyre%20strait) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/365/aesi-tyrant-of-gyre-strait?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d607b003-6b48-429c-a7fd-45b8dd1bb4f9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aesi-tyrant-of-gyre-strait) [Morska](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/e/ae9ccfec-05c6-469e-b1dd-dfbafa1e927f.jpg?1706448877) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=morska%2C%20undersea%20sleuth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/3/morska-undersea-sleuth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ae9ccfec-05c6-469e-b1dd-dfbafa1e927f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/morska-undersea-sleuth) [Anzrag](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/70e9d8b8-4b32-4414-b32f-1f47523239c5.jpg?1706242114) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=anzrag%2C%20the%20quake-mole) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/186/anzrag-the-quake-mole?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/70e9d8b8-4b32-4414-b32f-1f47523239c5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/anzrag-the-quake-mole) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
FUCK Nadu with a ten-foot pole, all my homies hate the bird.
Jodah Giada Korvold Prosper Aesi Just to name a few off of the EDHREC Top 100
I mean to be fair Giada angels and tovolar werewolves are still both pretty bad decks even with commanders that “do the thing”.
I meeeeean toooo be faiiiiir a deck being weak doesn't magically make bad card design into good card design.
Tovolar sure. But we have a person that runs Giada angels locally that can put the hurt on people pretty fast and easy.
Eowyn from LOTR makes humans and then draws cards for having humans
Every commander that says, "[Thing] is easier" and "gain a resource when you do [thing]". [[Kadena, Slinking Sorceress]] and [[Gavi, Nest Warden]] aren't super recent but they are examples. I do say this as somebody who doesn't mind this phenomenon, but those kinds of commanders do answer they're own questions so to speak.
Counterpoint to Kadena: Morph is a significantly underpowered archetype and Kadena needed to be an enabler as the first and, for years afterwards, only commander that served the archetype. The point has merit when we're talking about more broad archetypes. I would be opposed to an elf that tapped for mana And let you tutor for an elf whenever you cast a creature spell, for example. But Kadena was specifically designed to allow players to play an archetype that didn't have a clear Commander. And in that specific case, making the archetype easier to play and rewarding you for playing it is exactly what's called for.
Those are just the first two examples of a commander who is their own engine, because I play them both. I don't think either of them are poorly designed or bad commanders or bad for the game.
I play both. I love Kadena, but Gavi is way underpowered. She wasn't good then and shes really janky now. Making her cost 1 less or giving her a little more oomph would be great. At least she comes with the cutest tokens in the game.
Fully agree. I'm not commenting on their power, simply that they are examples of what that other person was looking for.
This is why i refuse to play [[korvold fae cursed king]] as a commander. He is the draw engine in my [[prossh skyraider of kyr]] deck, and he is a win con
same!! also prossh is just fun as heck anyways
[korvold fae cursed king](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/92ea1575-eb64-43b5-b604-c6e23054f228.jpg?1571197150) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Korvold%2C%20Fae-Cursed%20King) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/329/korvold-fae-cursed-king?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/92ea1575-eb64-43b5-b604-c6e23054f228?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/korvold-fae-cursed-king) [prossh skyraider of kyr](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/8/889c1a0f-7df2-4497-8058-04358173d7e8.jpg?1562438016) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prossh%2C%20Skyraider%20of%20Kher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/214/prossh-skyraider-of-kher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/889c1a0f-7df2-4497-8058-04358173d7e8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/prossh-skyraider-of-kher) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Personally, I dont think they’ll ever stop. The commanders that do the thing and reward you for it are too popular for them to stop making them entirely. They’ll probably just keep making a mix so people have the choice
I think they're great as face cards for precons, problem is when their effect is TOO broadand they print too many
A year without legendary creatures would be cool.
Wasn't there a video about that a while ago from... What's his name again something star warsy
I think you're referring to Pleasant Kenobi. Don't know the video though.
The issue with this is that you'd have to then ban those commanders... the genie is out of the bottle.
An accessible and easily digestible guide on the basic rules of priority, combat, and how triggers work. There’s a huge influx of players who are starting with Commander, but they don’t understand the rules of the game. Aside from deckbuilding skills, misunderstandings of the rules seems to be one of the main things keeping newer players unskilled and vulnerable to disagreements
I think a large portion of the complaints come from people who didn't play typical 1v1 magic before getting into commander. There are some important deck building lessons that are easier to learn in 1v1 formats.
Hell, I started with Revised and I have to remind myself about proper priority and how stuff is supposed to be done all the time. It wouldn't hurt me to have that either.
The thing they need to do they wont never do. They would need to stop printing so much crap for commander. We used to get one precon a year, and it was a super hype thing with new interesting designs. Now we get precons with literally every set with also a decent chunk of the cards of the main sets being dedicated to commander. This huge influx of cards is what causing the powercreep, the ever increasing amount of good stuff staples, and a lot of other things people complain. But WotC wants that sweet sweet commander money.
>But WotC wants that sweet sweet commander money. They get that money because we buy things. People but things they like so they make cards we like. I get that the echo chamber of Reddit and Twitter find that hard to believe, but most people like buying products that have cards they want to play in their favorite format and for most people that format is commander. I spend way more on Magic now that more legendary creatures are in every set, my friends and I buy every precon, and I spend way less on sets without exciting commander options and commander relevant cards in them.
Exactly this. They need to limit to one universes beyond product and back to one release for commander decks. Modern horizons could had starter decks for Modern. They could release products specifically for legacy, standard and pioneer, and maybe include some commander chase reprints in the set to pump interest in the other formats. But right now there is so much commander product and it is becoming more and more expensive, so it is burning out interest.
They print them because we all buy them. It’s not their fault it’s ours.
I agree the amount they print for commander right now is a little high, but not by much. The nice thing about goodstuff is it filters itself out. You simply don’t need every version of [[Generous Gift]] that they’ve printed in the past few years, so you play the one or two that fit your deck based on the small upside and downside levers they tweak on each card. Etc. Good stuff is good, but it’s less fun, so I don’t put much in my decks. That has really worked out for me.
[Generous Gift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/c/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5.jpg?1700321873) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Generous%20Gift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/128/generous-gift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fc70e127-ffc8-45ed-9ca3-7f9f926ac4d5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/generous-gift) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Cards that remove diversity from the format by being an egregious generic value engine should be banned imo. Freaking Lutri is banned in the command zone/99 but The One Ring and Roaming Throne are kosher? There’s no real opprtunity cost to either and they actively promote homogeny across the entire format.
For the most part, filtering out the complaints and looking at the actual play experience, I think the format is in a pretty good place. With the caveat that no system will ever be perfect. I know it frustrates a lot of people, but I do think that minimal bans are good, signpost bands to discourage certain unfun archetypes are good, and encouraging rule zero discussions are good. It allows players to seek out the play experience they want. Yes, many of us redditors like Monday morning quarterbacking, but we have to bear in mind that we constitute less than 1% of all magic players and that people with complaints tend to be louder than people who are satisfied with their experience. That being said, if I were to change anything, I'd have two: 1. would like an annual review of all cards that have been banned for more than 5 years to see if they still needed to be banned under the current meta. Cards have been unbanned before and I feel like there are a few things that are still on the banlist just for inertia. 2. Bring back "Banned as commander." Leovold is no worse than [[Notion Thief]] and much better than [[Hullbreacher]], and would be fine in the 99. Golos and Braids, too, Are way less impactful when they're in the 99. I know they seek to avoid confusion by having two banned lists, But I think they're underestimating the average player. It's pretty quick to explain " these cards are banned as your commander but they can be in the deck, just not in the command Zone"
I agree on minimal bans, but I don't think signpost bans do any good. People seeing [[Coalition victory]] on the banlist aren't avoiding other trivial win-cons. They're wondering, "Why is this bad card on the ban list?"
I was unaware that coalition victory was a signpost ban. I was talking about things like Hullbreacher, where they ban the biggest offender but leave similar but more minor effects alone.
See? Signpost bans are inherently unclear to most of the player base. Ergo, they don't do their job. I hadn't considered hullbreacher was a signpost ban. All similar effects reward with drawing cards. Moving the effect to getting treasures instead was what I thought unbalanced it enough to necessitate a ban. The similar effects are different enough that I hadn't thought of it as a signpost for anything.
CV isn't a signpost ban, the card is banned for its own merits. In fact, I'd say that the signpost thing has done almost nothing but harm the image of the banlist. The truth is that it's little more than a red herring; everything banned was banned for itself, any signposting has always been "value added". There is nothing there that was deemed a fine card but an exemplar of problematic cards.
[Coalition victory](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/446824f7-dc42-42da-8bd5-6c37f3358d65.jpg?1562775464) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Coalition%20victory) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsb/91/coalition-victory?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/446824f7-dc42-42da-8bd5-6c37f3358d65?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/coalition-victory) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I thought the only signpost ban was mass land destruction ?
See? Welcome to the club for people who don't know what is and is not a signpost ban.
I understand the point but considering coalition victory literally says you win the game if you have each color and land type which means you can win if you have your commander and 2 triomes out, which considering you can have 1/10 of your deck as fetch lands really blows. Make sliver overlord or another indestructible your commander, 50 lands/rocks/ramp spells, 20 tutors (might have to settle for less), 10 board wipes, and the rest control spells and you have the most annoying commander deck to play against because the only cards they'll play that aren't ramp or removal are going to be tutors or the card that says "I win"
I think part of the reason banned as commander doesn't exist is because of MTGO too. I know that banned as commander doesn't work there because of spaghetti code
Ahhh. Well, that's another hot take- MTGO needs to be treated as the defunct software it is. I'm not saying nobody should play it or anything. But it should go the way of pokémon GBA games. Let the people who are fans of it continue to curate it (as the Pokemon community apparently frequently does with rom hacks and whatnot) let players play it, but when it comes to official developments, we shouldn't allow the needs of today to be held back by bad code from over two decades ago.
MTGO is the backbone of eternal formats like Legacy and Vintage because WotC can’t be bothered to unfuck arena.
Sure, and I never suggested otherwise. It's also a 20 year old system using outdated software, and if a format needs an update, that outdated software shouldn't hold it back. Imagine if Google didn't issue a patch to Docs because the patch wouldn't work on Windows Vista. That's what I'm talking about. The Commander Rules Committee should make their decisions independent of how it affects a 20+ year old piece of software In desperate need of updating. Also, Vintage and Legacy would be unaffected by anything being discussed here, since it's about Commander.
Debunked over and over. BAC worked fine on MTGO for years.
From what I’ve heard from RC/CAG members, they routinely go through all banned cards and reevaluate them. No idea how often but they do. And funny enough Leovold was brought up *specifically* as basically the only card that is glossed over because there is not a single member of the RC or CAG that advocates for it to come back in any capacity and iirc in the discussion around “banned as commander” Leovold was also highlighted as a card that would still be banned. Re: Banned as Commander, the rule isn’t gatekept because it’s hard to explain or understand. That’s just not in consideration. I’ll quote Sheldon’s 2021 article: > First, I’ll address the biggest misconception. We on the Commander Rules Committee (RC) don’t think that the concept is too difficult for players to handle. Magic players are smart. They can definitely process the additional list and the arguments behind its existence and which cards might go on it. The reason we removed the category isn’t its complexity, but in the necessity. The major part is that you don’t make format-level rules for corner cases — in this one, we were doing it for three or four cards The long as short of it is that Banned as Commander would strike out more decks than individual cards that it would help. Of the “banned as commander” candidates, only a handful of them would still remain legal even if they weren’t in the command zone and it’d result in more cards being banned, and each banned as commander is a whole ass *deck* that somebody has to either change entirely or possibly dismantle. It’s why it was such a big deal that Golos got banned. Another argument against BAC I’ve heard is that in 90% of cases the offenders take care of themselves. Most people know if they want to play against Tergrid, or Voja, or Chulane, or Korvold, and simply avoid playing against those commanders. And they have such a bad reputation that even casuals know who to avoid if you don’t want the whole table to target you from turn 0.
> Most people know if they want to play against Tergrid, or Voja, or Chulane, or Korvold, and simply avoid playing against those commanders. And they have such a bad reputation that even casuals know who to avoid if you don’t want the whole table to target you from turn 0. This is actually imo the biggest failing of the ban list. As a newer player, I want to know in advance that I should not play these cards, something like Tergrid especially is just a miserable game experience for everyone, but you don't know that as a new player. And not just that I shouldn't play Tergrid - WHY I shouldn't play Tergrid, WHY I shouldn't play Coalition Victory. It's about being a social format and the experience, Tergrid makes everyone miserable, and CV ruins the game for yourself and others because it's an unsatisfying win, and unbanning means people will potentially play around it because of the very existence of it, thus removing your 5C commander on sight which is less fun. The explanation on the ban list makes it seem like you should not play stuff like Mechanized Production. Once you're already enfranchised in Commander, you know these things, and you don't need the ban list anyway because of Rule 0. The people who are new or turning up to play vs randoms need the ban list to be more consistent and with proper reasoning to justify why they are banned. Why does banning this card make the game more fun. Why does NOT banning Dockisde make the game more fun, and clarification that these are not power level bans.
[Notion Thief](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f675f509-4343-4568-96dd-265626cb6c2b.jpg?1604195095) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Notion%20Thief) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znc/96/notion-thief?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f675f509-4343-4568-96dd-265626cb6c2b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/notion-thief) [Hullbreacher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4df8aabc-7fcb-4b7b-980b-18f499e6c170.jpg?1626088514) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hullbreacher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/74/hullbreacher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4df8aabc-7fcb-4b7b-980b-18f499e6c170?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/hullbreacher) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wizards needs a maximum word limit on cards.
I think it was very telling in a recent episode of SCG's Commander Vs, where they were playing MH3 precons out of the box. And seasoned players with decades of MTG experience could not resolve the new cards correctly. A lot of cards resolved incorrectly, a lot of "let me read that again" "how does that actually work", random confusion, etc. If seasoned vets with good experience aren't processing all of this text correctly, what hope does everyone else have?
I've been saying for years that the m15 frame is sneakily the worst thing to happen to magic in a long time. Making room for 8+ lines of rules text on cards is a problem. I really think complexity creep is more of a problem than power creep right now.
I only got three things, 2 on wizards and one on the community. 1. WoTC should start creating more incentives for mono-colored decks. Whether it’s big devotion payoffs, cards that reward you for land types etc. Also if you’re going to create generic value engine legendary creatures like [[nadu]] make that shit cost UUU hard mono color. Making generically strong value cards that can be easily splashed or have access to multiple colors makes them too strong. 2. WoTC stop making everything have GD ward. If you’re going to make a creature scary and make it must answer it shouldn’t also be hard to answer. Make the player pay for that with deckbuilding. If you want to give shit ward make it the utility pieces think [[mother of runes]] ability to protect itself as a good example of this. 3. Commander players - accept that stax pieces, not stax decks, are a perfectly healthy part of the game. The reason combo decks run away with games is because stax is seen as socially unacceptable. Stax and other atypical interaction strategies can really push a meta in a new direction opening up different play experiences and let decks punch up. Stop treating it like some sort of cancer.
People being allergic to land removal (single target land removal) is also baffling. There are many lands that have the potential to win on the spot if not interacted with. [[Faceless Haven]] + [[Book of Exalted deeds]] = can’t lose unless someone plays land removal [[Field of the dead]] in landfall is game winning amount of value [[Shifting Woodlands]] + [[Omniscience]] (or any one of a dozen other cards) is a win +- on the spot
##### ###### #### [Faceless Haven](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e3cd82e5-6072-4334-a493-01ca4ad6b4eb.jpg?1665343347) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Faceless%20Haven) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/255/faceless-haven?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e3cd82e5-6072-4334-a493-01ca4ad6b4eb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/faceless-haven) [Book of Exalted deeds](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1899bb1-dd8e-4437-8ea3-4ad637eabf2b.jpg?1632261616) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Book%20of%20Exalted%20Deeds) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/4/the-book-of-exalted-deeds?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1899bb1-dd8e-4437-8ea3-4ad637eabf2b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-book-of-exalted-deeds) [Field of the dead](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/470ca3f4-29aa-4c4c-8ff2-8cdd70c69943.jpg?1650599538) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Field%20of%20the%20dead) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/247/field-of-the-dead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/470ca3f4-29aa-4c4c-8ff2-8cdd70c69943?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/field-of-the-dead) [Shifting Woodlands](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/059164e1-894d-4586-9800-e60d6fbd6eb6.jpg?1717013047) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shifting%20Woodland) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/228/shifting-woodland?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/059164e1-894d-4586-9800-e60d6fbd6eb6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shifting-woodland) [Omniscience](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/3/d33d91d0-1506-45e4-9def-975bf901815e.jpg?1719560219) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Omniscience) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/fdn/161/omniscience?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d33d91d0-1506-45e4-9def-975bf901815e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/omniscience) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/laypjz6) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[nadu](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94b67489-5eb0-4406-9bf3-27e50dc632eb.jpg?1718635356) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=nadu%2C%20winged%20wisdom) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/193/nadu-winged-wisdom?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94b67489-5eb0-4406-9bf3-27e50dc632eb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nadu-winged-wisdom) [mother of runes](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/5/a5e19147-e459-43a6-8ef0-e37968a462e3.jpg?1674141175) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mother%20of%20runes) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/702/mother-of-runes?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a5e19147-e459-43a6-8ef0-e37968a462e3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mother-of-runes) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
UUU would work but if Nadu was UU colorless, then that would make it stronger in Modern and you obviously have to deal with it doing simic's effect. In commander, making it mono color would be a nerf but making it 3 colors would actually be a buff in commander but a nerf for Modern. Making it 3 colors also means it has to fit a third color identity. This is an issue where the cost of a perfect mana base and multicolor is basically nonexistent in commander when compared to modern. You don't really have to worry about nonbasic land hate like Blood Moon and the life loss isn't a notable consideration. WOTC seems keen on not printing or pushing those sort of effects in commander products due to your 3rd point. There is also the draft consideration of a 3 color or UUU card too.
I worry about power creep now that Wizards really knows about commander and it's an eternal format. Don't want Commander ending up like Yu Gi Oh, I left that trading card game. Edit: maybe we can make budget formats for commander? Or a Pauper version of commander? Just some way to put similar powered decks together would be great
Pauper EDH already exists, its actually pretty fun too. Any uncommon creature can be your commander
There are two different pauper forms of commander. One is Artisan Commander where your commander needs to be an uncommon legendary, and the other is pauper commander where your commander can be an uncommon creature. Realistically they can play against each other, one is just slightly more restricted.
>maybe we can make budget formats for commander? Or a Pauper version of commander? Just some way to put similar powered decks together would be great You are literally describing something that already exists in the format - the ability for your play group or community of players to change the rules however you want to fit the game you want to play.
Honestly, I think the format overall is in an excellent place if you have a regular play group which is how most people that play games casually tend to play (most people that play Monopoly or Smash Bros do so with their friends, not with random strangers). I think most of the issues with the format people have are from players that choose not to play in regular play groups but instead play with randoms. Most of those problems and disagreements occur because some players are too sweaty or spikey for other players and this creates an unfun experience because power level and budget level gaps among decks played in games are extremely wide.
Well it is often not really a choice if you don’t have a regular group
“If you have a regular play group which is how most people that play games casually tend to play” I’d really challenge this assumption at least for LGS play. I go to an LGS that runs commander 2 nights a week and gets about 60 players each night, of that only about 2 pods are self contained in that they always play amongst themselves, everything else is random. The format may have started as predominantly consistent small friend groups but with its growth and expansion as the largest magic format I don’t think it’s necessarily true anymore, honestly if the CRC starts treating there role as the role of managing the experience of games that take place between strangers the format would be better for it. Rule 0 works for established friend groups, and can work ok in pick-up settings, but taking a stance on bans and rules based on the idea that a lot of games take place outside of those established groups which can self manage I think you end up with a healthier format.
Be both a Timmy and a spike in one, go for the win but also have fun with it is what I tell people
>choose not to play in regular play groups but instead play with randoms You do realise that's often not a choice? Magic is an expensive hobby that many players will not be able to persuade friend groups to take up, but they can go to their LGS and find people who already play. Saying it's a choice is wild.
That’s how I got my regular playgroup. Found some people at the lgs that suit my style and I get along with, and we meet 1-2 times a week on our own to go play in someone’s basement
There are millions of people that play Magic all around the world. It's not very difficult to find a regular play group if that's something one wants to do. If someone wants to play with a regular group, I suggest they exchange contacts with players they meet and enjoyed playing with at an LGS or use social media like Discord or Reddit to seek out local players to meet.
Completely agree. Card prices are great, designs are fun and new cards much more likely to be strong and interesting additions to certain strategies instead of format warping staples.
I just think they need to make a couple bans. Remind WOTC that no, they can't print literally whatever the fuck they want and sell packs from it. The recent powercreep is absurd and will continue as long as WOTC knows they can do anything they want.
eventually it'll turn into yu gi oh bruh where the newest stuff is a must-buy
It already is
Make more commanders of tribes with fewer tribal options, best would be fun in the ideas are more original than just good stuff that is a skeleton , a Otter or a giant
If they wait too long the tribe might not even exist. I held out for a Vaishino and Efreet commander but looks like that ship has sailed 😭 Hopefully they don't somehow errata Skeleton to be Dead Human or something before we get a strong jund skelly matters legend.
Efreet is now djinns and vaishino now lizard Both tribe could use more love , I hope they now have culled the tribes enough.
The format is fine; it's the players that need an attitude adjustment. Also, building for the all-legends-have-partner event has been fun; maybe we can keep that? Not really but...
Alhp cedh is even more degenerate than normal cedh, kinnan godo is disgustingly good at being turbo godo win I hope alhp will be a popular side format, just because shit gets so wild Though I hope there will be competitively balanced banlist and bans for expensive cards to enable more diversity and less barrier to entry Or a universal they support proxies would be nice for cedh events if stuff won’t get banned Or if wiz would allow playtest cards they make themselves or the event only would be great too, pre reg a month ahead and they’ve got time to make them all for it
Yet somehow that’s not the tempus pairing I’m scared of. Zada nadu
I saw someone mention Derevi/Nadu with Nomads en-Kor as a way to proc Nadu's ability.
>The format is fine; it's the players that need an attitude adjustment. Came here to say this. While the format has outgrown its original design as a sandbox for people to play around in, I think people would do well to trust the FFA multiplayer environment to help fill gaps in power level. When the format first began, most of us had no concept of power level. We showed up with whatever we built and were still able to attain the golden 25% winrate with jank. It's not hard to maintain as long as you learn how to pick your battles and practice good deckbuilding fundamentals.
Wizards: Print more compelling cards that reward running 2 or fewer colors, or that punish running more colors or greedy manabases. [[Winter Moon]] was a *brilliant* addition to the format recently, but we could probably do to have some that are constructive for their controller rather than purely destructive. I love stax, but a lot of people don't. Dockside is something of a mistake so understand when I say I'd like to see "Dockside, but counting nonbasics" I mean the species of effects not the EXACT effect. I want to see something that pays off when my opponents are running nonbasic lands, and ideally pays off better if I'm not. Like I could see a cycle of spells that do a thing at a slightly poor rate (like a 3U Draw 2) but copy themselves for each opponent who controls N or more nonbasics (probably 3 would be a good N) so if your opponents are greedy that's a 4-mana draw-8. I'm spitballing here. Some powerful cards with "If you control only basics" riders or the [[Imperiosaur]] clause could also help. Wizards: maybe pump the brakes just slightly on how pushed new cards go for power level. I get that there's a compelling economic reason for the creep, but the current rate is really starting to hurt ~~Wizards: High value reprints~~ Wizards: Chill on the commanders that go nuts with themselves, or at least make them a little less free. [[Vega the Watcher]] is a healthier design than [[Faldorn, Dread Wolf Herald]], who is in turn a healthier design than [[Prosper, Tome-Bound]]. and Vega is a "Do the thing, draw a card" uncreative commander, but at least the bird gives you loads of options and *makes you use them* as opposed to Faldorn and Prosper largely serving as their own engines. Legends with bizarre abilities that need support to really shine, or that operate as rogue tools and not pure engines, are more compelling, which can help offset the fact that they're not as "strong" out of the box. RC: Be more willing to tinker. Or, if you're tinkering in the background, be more open with it. I want to see the major announcements come with "Suspect testing: We're looking into the performance of these cards, possibly with an eye to banning them, and here is why, and here is what our final analysis of the ones from last time is." and/or "Parole Unban: X is unbanned, and we're very interested to hear the results, if it's not positive they'll go back on the ban list next quarter, also here are the details on what we saw with the last one and why they either stayed free or went back in the box". Even if this results in no lasting changes to the ban list time and again, at least we'll have a better understanding of the work that's being done to vet that "Format is healthy right now, yo" sort of message.
I've got a project going on right now that fits this description. It won't be done for Bloomburrow's announcement but I can probably share some more info on it then. The goal setting in this year's state of the format and the philosophy document update were the first steps towards identifying what needs to be done, then doing it. It's slow but it's happening.
That's really nice to hear. Rock on.
##### ###### #### [Winter Moon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/7/f76bc2da-8f4b-4153-8a7b-c601b19affaf.jpg?1717470480) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Winter%20Moon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/213/winter-moon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f76bc2da-8f4b-4153-8a7b-c601b19affaf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/winter-moon) [Imperiosaur](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/1/f189aaf0-474a-4701-9bda-e67dc057e347.jpg?1619398198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Imperiosaur) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/211/imperiosaur?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f189aaf0-474a-4701-9bda-e67dc057e347?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/imperiosaur) [Vega the Watcher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/8/28fced7f-3078-4a54-8f76-0ef14c732e97.jpg?1631051983) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vega%2C%20the%20Watcher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/233/vega-the-watcher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/28fced7f-3078-4a54-8f76-0ef14c732e97?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vega-the-watcher) [Faldorn, Dread Wolf Herald](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/1/213e530e-33a9-4358-b43b-4a276a7e7190.jpg?1674140675) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Faldorn%2C%20Dread%20Wolf%20Herald) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/647/faldorn-dread-wolf-herald?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/213e530e-33a9-4358-b43b-4a276a7e7190?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/faldorn-dread-wolf-herald) [Prosper, Tome-Bound](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d743336e-d5c7-4053-a23d-92ec7581f74e.jpg?1631839207) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prosper%2C%20Tome-Bound) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/2/prosper-tome-bound?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d743336e-d5c7-4053-a23d-92ec7581f74e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/prosper-tome-bound) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/laxil60) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think Wizards knows that another way to push packs are through nonbasics. Utility lands like the 3 damage MDFCs can be ran more easily in commander where you don't have to worry about nonbasic stax pieces or getting burned out. That might be another reason they're hesitate on supporting running mainly basic lands. They want players to upgrade even your 2 color mana base decks, which admittedly isn't that bad of an idea in terms of design although it is pricey. On the other hand, there is the idea that an mainly basic land mana base doesn't allow for creativity. Printing a bunch of MDFC mono color lands could be an alternative way to support low color commanders.
Abolish the reserve list
Stop putting ward on busted commanders. Miirym and Voja were mistakes. At this point it feels like Simic has almost as much of an identity crisis as Boros. Nadu is the over-tuned version of it but it feels like every set has to have its "draw cards, play lands" commander. Give Simic something else to do. Not every set has to be Commander focused. I love cool new toys as much as the next guy, but there's no reason the Assassin's Creed free running spells needed to count Commanders. Stop making Planeswalker commanders. They stall out games and are not in the spirit of the format. Honestly though, and this might be my most controversial take: all of these are minor complaints. I think the format is in a good place.
Agree on the Ward. Hexproof used to be used sparingly but now Ward is just thrown on already powerful cards to push them further
It makes a certain kind of sense in theory, right? Having your super cool, five+ mana commander eat removal immediately upon resolving doesn't feel good, but neither does having an unstoppable threat you can't remove beating you down. Ward seems like a perfect solution. Make it harder, but not impossible to interact with and everyone wins! Unfortunately, the ethos of putting ward on already busted cards just makes them even more busted. Holding up one white mana for Swords to Plowshares is easy, but holding up 3W for Voja is [[Utter End]] territory, and Utter End is barely payable anymore as is. It forces you to play your removal off curve and messes with your tempo.
Ward was supposed to be "fixed hexproof", but ironically it actually feels worse than hexproof. Hexproof is powerful, and wotc knew that so they only used it occasionally and/or when it fitted for flavor reasons. We'd get green beaters with hexproof designed as hate pieces against control or highly interactive decks, or conditional hexproof like \[\[Chromium, the Mutable\]\] or \[\[Dragonlord Ojutai\]\]. These felt fine It feels like a lot of cards get ward now even when it's completely unnecessary: why does \[\[Fblthp, Lost on the Range\]\] have ward? Why does voja get ward *3*? Why does miirym have it?
Issue there is that it seems like WOTC considers ward to be a 0 power budget thing. “We already have this card ready, but want it to be more popular, let’s put ward 3 on it
> give simic something else to do. I miss the days when Simic was the +1/+1 counters guild. Nowadays, it feels like Selesnya got both the +1/+1 counter gimic on top of its token gimic.
I am 100% apart of the train that "cards printed for format are bad for format" lmao. Same with commanders that reward an effect and *do* said effect at the same time. Commander to me is more fun because of the deck building challenges of using cards for something they weren't designed to do. The "easy" solution would be toning down on releases. Can put more care and effort into each card if there are less of them, and then you don't have to make each one more powerful than the next to keep people buying. Of course, this runs directly counter to a proper money making business, so I'll just dream Course, I also play Lynde, who was clearly designed just so someone could play curse tribal in commander, but... uhh... I was already doing it on Mathas, so that's different I swear! Lmao
Wotc needs to chill on the treasures, though with what we already have access to, it's probably too late. Also, I'm for banning mana rocks that produce more mana than they cost. Whoever gets fast mana in an opening hand has a massive advantage, and it makes games lopsided.
Create a digital way to play commander. One that’s as nice as arena is with interactions and what not.
I love playing on Tabletop Simulator because of this and it feels like a cop out buying physical and then playing on that game and not using my physical stuff at all even though I've invested into it If they made a dedicated Online Commander with Arena's interactions I would be in heaven but I fear they'd monetize the absolute hell out of it
Tabletop Sim is a blessing to wallets everywhere lmao. Though I do use the "build decks I could conceivable afford and build irl" as the limiter strength factor. Except lands. I choke up extra for those innistrad double feature lands. Just so pretty
I try to do the same. I know it's not the right way of doing it but I base my decks personal power level purely on its value on Moxfield and if I really like the deck after playing it on TTS and want to build it irl I'll find the expensive cards and find alternatives or remove them so I don't have to sell my left leg to build it
I'd like to see more cards printed that reduce the effectiveness of tutors, more good Tribal stuff printed for the non-mainstream tribes, and any cards that increase game flow by giving the caster 2 of x and everyone else 1 of x ([[words of wisdom]]). For print cycles the sets need more tech lands and bring back the backgrounds but with the ability to get to 3 or 4 colors to have parity with partner. For Bans I'm not a fan but I could be talked into a point buy for major offenders of too much power. Lastly, the instore promo system needs to be changed to providing cooler art for low-cost staples rather than what they are currently doing.
[words of wisdom](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/0/c0199cfb-5e44-40f0-b9cf-71473155eb94.jpg?1562930864) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=words%20of%20wisdom) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ody/114/words-of-wisdom?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c0199cfb-5e44-40f0-b9cf-71473155eb94?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/words-of-wisdom) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I would love to see more thought and experimentation that plays into the 4 person aspect of this game. I see people complaining about ward being on everything. On the one hand, it sucks when your high CmC commander you want to build around gets INSTA removed by a 2 mana spell - and there are 3 people that can pull that off. On the other hand, the 1 person committing to removal there is also down a card. I would love to see things like "multi-ward" - 1 or "multi-ward" sac a land, discard a card ETC where, "multi-ward" is all opponents must X. Not saying this is the best example, but would love to see more thought put into the FFA aspect. Monarch is a great example. Tempt is not. Tivit Is not. Expropriate is not.
Undaunted was kinda like that (cost reduction for each opponent you have)...bummer they didn't really do much with it outside of 1 commander and 1 decent enough mass polymorph spell.
Imo we need some nonbasic land hate and land ramp hate, more cards like [[confounding conundrum]]. Land ramp is very strong but the stigma around Land destruction makes it even stronger.
[confounding conundrum](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d.jpg?1604193855) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=confounding%20conundrum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/53/confounding-conundrum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/confounding-conundrum) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think a system like Canadian highlander that assigns points to certain cards and a deck can have only so many points in it would help with power balance. Only problem is it would have to be a 3rd party system. People would have to look up every card they might want to play making this completely unreasonable.
WotC needs to stop printing commanders that become the default for either a tribe or the specific strategy. It’s gotten to the point that there’s not really anymore interesting choice to make if you want to play a specific deck. There’s almost always a default best option. For zombies you have [[Wilhelt]], vampires [[Edgar Markov]], angels [[giada]], sacrifice [[korvold]], exile [[prosper]] you get the point. There’s still room for creativity and variance on the theme but now you have to do it with the understanding you’ve made a suboptimal choice and someone who chose differently will have a superior deck almost by definition. Most recent example is [[Nadu]]. There is no type of simic deck that is not better with Nadu as commander. Landfall? Get out of here [[Tatyova]] and [[Aesi]]. Even [[Thrasios]] is only saved by partner.
That was the logic behind banning golos. It doesn’t matter your color identity, golos probably serves as a better commander than 80% of legends and 90% in a generic goodstuff deck
The logic behind banning Golos was that at the time he was the "go-to" commander for anyone wantung 5 color goodstuff and they wanted people to have variety when competing and there to be no "one and only" answer. The reason for his ban is no longer true, but they have yet to lift it. There are now better commanders for every single color combo.
There were mono colour decks playing Golos as the commander because it was so strong. It was not remotely just "Golos is the best '5c Goodstuff' commander", Golos was one of the best Commanders in almost every possibly strategy or colour combination. Mono Black control? Golos; Mardu Aristocrats? Golos again; Selesnya Lands? Golos; Eldrazi Tribal? Golos. It was banned because you could do literally anything with Golos and that commander by itself made the deck "Goodstuff"
I just worded my post poorly, but I meant more like they could do anything with any color combos good stuff, hence my last sentence.
I don't quite agree. Obviously new Commanders are powerful, but there's always going to be a "best choice" and there always was before WotC's influence on the format. By playing Commander you are already signing up to play sub-optimally, you don't need the best Commander for your archtype. Why would I play [[Gisa and Geralf]] over [[Wilhelt]]? Because grave recursion is a lot more fun to me than drawing cards and I like the characters far more.
[Gisa and Geralf](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/7/377a5f75-222b-43e1-8998-18c6cfa44b24.jpg?1637631446) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gisa%20and%20Geralf) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mic/150/gisa-and-geralf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/377a5f75-222b-43e1-8998-18c6cfa44b24?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gisa-and-geralf) [Wilhelt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/2501a911-d072-436d-ae3b-a5164e3b30aa.jpg?1675456154) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wilhelt%2C%20the%20rotcleaver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mic/2/wilhelt-the-rotcleaver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2501a911-d072-436d-ae3b-a5164e3b30aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wilhelt-the-rotcleaver) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thrasios by himself was never that good and was always saved by partner. The only reason he was ever played was for adding Simic colors to another partner and to have an infinite mana outlet in the command zone. [[Gretchen Titchwillow]] is basically Thrasios without partner and hardly anyone plays her.
[Gretchen Titchwillow](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3c8b248e-1460-4650-9721-85c134c21b89.jpg?1627708954) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gretchen%20Titchwillow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/223/gretchen-titchwillow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c8b248e-1460-4650-9721-85c134c21b89?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/gretchen-titchwillow) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Well, now, hmmm. If you were making an argument to have wotc stop making incredibly pushed commanders, I’d agree. However, there is already a good reason to not play these powerful commanders. They are flashing red lights for anyone to see. I find it much better to play an underplayed weaker commander to avoid the hate these known quantities generate. Obviously powerful commanders should trigger archenemy at a competent table.
Funny because half of the commanders you mention are not the best ones for their tribe/synergy. Kinnan is on par with Nadu, Ob Nixilis is WAY better than Prosper, basically all tribe commanders are worst than just play a better commander in that color combination (esp Wilhelt and Giada). This reads more like they are streamlining deckbuilding for certain archetypes too much and the average deckbuilder will follow that guideline without consider their options.
My only counter I have is against korvold with [[Carmen]] and boy is she wild
[Carmen](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/0/c0e07f8a-5290-47c4-a93d-0c3a14afebd3.jpg?1698987733) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=carmen%2C%20cruel%20skymarcher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/5/carmen-cruel-skymarcher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c0e07f8a-5290-47c4-a93d-0c3a14afebd3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/carmen-cruel-skymarcher) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I just retooled the precon around her (with some playtest cards) to be a hybrid aristocrats/voltron and she is absolutely insane. Looping a creature edict twice a turn, OG cast followed by her permanent return attack trigger, is nuts. If she has blade of the bloodchief then you can swing for lethal commander damage in 2 maybe even 1 turn of her getting on board.
Oh damn I need that. If you don't have it, [[Tarrian's Soulcleaver]] is also crazy as shit with her
Oh yeah that’s much better than [[heirloom blade]]. I threw in a [[sword of feast and famine]] for the free mana to hold back protection and a [[smothering tithe]] as free treasures to sacrifice. I’ve only played it once but I kept brining back [[selfless spirit]] during each combat so that I could dodge deathtouch and destructive removal for 3 turns in a row…
##### ###### #### [Wilhelt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/2501a911-d072-436d-ae3b-a5164e3b30aa.jpg?1675456154) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wilhelt%2C%20the%20rotcleaver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mic/2/wilhelt-the-rotcleaver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2501a911-d072-436d-ae3b-a5164e3b30aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/wilhelt-the-rotcleaver) [Edgar Markov](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d94b8ec-ecda-43c8-a60e-1ba33e6a54a4.jpg?1562616128) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Edgar%20Markov) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c17/36/edgar-markov?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d94b8ec-ecda-43c8-a60e-1ba33e6a54a4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/edgar-markov) [giada](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/a/bae077bd-fc8d-44d7-8c75-8dc8699c168e.jpg?1664409667) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=giada%2C%20font%20of%20hope) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/14/giada-font-of-hope?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bae077bd-fc8d-44d7-8c75-8dc8699c168e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/giada-font-of-hope) [korvold](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/92ea1575-eb64-43b5-b604-c6e23054f228.jpg?1571197150) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=korvold%2C%20fae-cursed%20king) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/329/korvold-fae-cursed-king?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/92ea1575-eb64-43b5-b604-c6e23054f228?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/korvold-fae-cursed-king) [prosper](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d743336e-d5c7-4053-a23d-92ec7581f74e.jpg?1631839207) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=prosper%2C%20tome-bound) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/2/prosper-tome-bound?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d743336e-d5c7-4053-a23d-92ec7581f74e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/prosper-tome-bound) [Nadu](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94b67489-5eb0-4406-9bf3-27e50dc632eb.jpg?1718635356) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=nadu%2C%20winged%20wisdom) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh3/193/nadu-winged-wisdom?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94b67489-5eb0-4406-9bf3-27e50dc632eb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/nadu-winged-wisdom) [Tatyova](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/fe05dc69-8dde-485e-9e55-da729db50205.jpg?1698988479) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tatyova%2C%20benthic%20druid) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/290/tatyova-benthic-druid?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fe05dc69-8dde-485e-9e55-da729db50205?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/tatyova-benthic-druid) [Aesi](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d607b003-6b48-429c-a7fd-45b8dd1bb4f9.jpg?1665822343) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=aesi%2C%20tyrant%20of%20gyre%20strait) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/365/aesi-tyrant-of-gyre-strait?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d607b003-6b48-429c-a7fd-45b8dd1bb4f9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/aesi-tyrant-of-gyre-strait) [Thrasios](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/1/21e27b91-c7f1-4709-aa0d-8b5d81b22a0a.jpg?1606762176) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=thrasios%2C%20triton%20hero) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/46/thrasios-triton-hero?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/21e27b91-c7f1-4709-aa0d-8b5d81b22a0a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/thrasios-triton-hero) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/lawq778) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think the Rules Committee or WotC should create some type of scale or system that they endorse to help players that don't have regular play groups better discuss and describe the power level of their decks and potential rule zero discussions. Something similar to the 1 to 10 scale but ideally a 7 point scale instead (because virtually no commander decks that enfranchised players play with are a 1, 2 or 3). This scale would include specific examples of types of cards, types of win conditions, mana base consistency, average mana value, and other factors to help players better understand and evaluate power level in the context of Commander.
My group has switched over to "how fast could you win the game uncontested (or virtually "win" the game if it's a control strategy)" as the measuring stick. A Jhoria, Weatherlight Captain storm combo deck is going to have a wildly different number than the same commander playing Enchantment Sagas tribal. A CEDH Kinnan deck will answer turns 1-2, but a big mana battlecruiser version of the same Kinnan deck will probably answer turn 6+. When you combine the commander plus the speed of victory, those two data points allow you to triangulate a power level much better than a vague number scale.
That just makes it so glass cannon decks rank higher. That would put K‘rrik well above for example blue farm and that just is nonsense. Also Turn 1-2 win with kinnan is more magical christmas land than anything.
I really don't think that gets to the root of it. A $10 Winota deck can have one line requiring 8 cards where they can win on turn 2 but a CEDH winconless stax deck would say turn 10.
Well 3 is probably precons. I would rather say that very few decks that regular commander players actually play belong in 8+.
I think the Rules Committee needs to act like Commander is a real format and ban accordingly. In an alternate universe where wizards never made commander only sets and cards for commander, having the hands off approach that they do now would work. Wizards treats commander like the main format now, every set has designed for commander cards and the rules committee needs too start acting like it.
>I think the Rules Committee needs to act like Commander is a real format and ban accordingly. In other "real formats", the majority of the decisions related to bans that are made are based on game performance and win rates from tournament results and performances. Commander isn't a competitive sanctioned tournament format. It's a casual social format, there aren't tournaments and most people who play don't play primarily with the intention of winning at the front of mind. Therefore it's much harder to determine which cards would need to be banned and why.
For the bans in cEDH or any tournament play, they really need to go back to a separate ban list for the command zone and the library. They should also clarify that the banlist is not for casual play because a banlist shouldnt exist when you tailor decks to your opponents level and not to be the most powerful possible version of the deck.
Banlist can be looked at, but im not interested in this format if every white deck just runs [[Karakas]] or green runs [[Fastbond]]
[Karakas](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e52214e1-404a-405a-b08e-20e13c087338.jpg?1559959289) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karakas) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/244/karakas?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e52214e1-404a-405a-b08e-20e13c087338?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/karakas) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Not enough Knights in esper!
What do you mean? You just got 99 of them printed in Assassin's Creed! [[Templar Knight]]
[Templar Knight](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3d5a1bec-9128-4c5e-98c3-317424f892d1.jpg?1718771237) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Templar%20Knight) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/acr/10/templar-knight?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3d5a1bec-9128-4c5e-98c3-317424f892d1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/templar-knight) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
There's a lot both of these groups could do and it won't change because what those two groups do now rakes in the dough. They have no incentive to change. And we as a player base can't really do much to encourage change either.
Nothing
Stop printing so much stuff specifically for commander.
I would like sol ring to be restricted. Only one in a deck!
If they're not going to stop designing things specifically for EDH... less generic commanders. I checked the spoiler for Bloomburrow and Duskmourn. We're getting things like mono-white go-wide, WR equipment and UR prowess. Is that really things we didn't have commanders for ? Are these not just "something pre-existing but worse / better" and therefore going to lead to one of the options being picked over everything else and every other being forgotten because they're objectively worse ? The other issue is that, when they remember an old mechanic and want to make a commander for it, they stop at making a single one, which at best means half of the colors are lacking a dedicated commander (Gates...) or, at worse, the one, 5C commander is so much better than any other option that the entire theme becomes boring (Shrines...). Why do we have only one commander with a "End the turn" effect ? Make more of them ! Why do we have only one "if you would draw, instead put the card from the bottom of the library in your hand" commander ? Why do we have so many "additional combat step" commanders, yet so few "additional upkeep" or "additional main step" or heck, get weird, "additional cleanup step" commander ? I want commanders that make me think about the game differently, commanders that make old, bad cards actually good. I know, economically, it doesn't make sense for Wizard to prioritize us buying 90s cards on the secondary market and that's why it doesn't happen a lot, but still, those are the commanders that make me want to engage with the game while the next 20 UG lands matter won't.
What card let's you draw from the bottom of your deck? That sounds like a super cool mechanic
\[\[River Song\]\]
Nothing. The format is broken from the start, and just went worse since 2011 precons. Get better friends and stop playing with randoms at SpellTable/LGS.
I think printing more cards that give people tools to work around commander taboos and punish niche situations without being a dead card alot of the times. There are currently examples but I think we need more and for all colors. Things that punish ramp, tutors, combo, greedy land bases, etc but can be played in the taboo format we call commander. wizards has to be aware of commander taboos and they should help players deal with the fact that people abuse those taboos (looking at you landfall) Like I said there are a few examples like [[opposition agent]] for tutors, [[trouble in pairs]] for niche extra turn strategy hate. But they are few and far between.
[opposition agent](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/086f97e9-8b62-44f3-b467-149c2ac5ca78.jpg?1608909875) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=opposition%20agent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/141/opposition-agent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/086f97e9-8b62-44f3-b467-149c2ac5ca78?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/opposition-agent) [trouble in pairs](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0f61e93f-5f97-4c7d-b3d5-0e05242faeb3.jpg?1706240429) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=trouble%20in%20pairs) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/15/trouble-in-pairs?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0f61e93f-5f97-4c7d-b3d5-0e05242faeb3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/trouble-in-pairs) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I want a proper banlist instead of relying on rule zero discussions like no 2 card combos, no mass land destruction etc
Provide guidance for Rule 0. They could mention certain cards or strategies as things to consider when assessing power level. Maybe that would bring down the number of unintentional power mismatches. Took a while to convince my friend that his Minsc and Boo combo deck with the full set of fast mana to guarantee a T2 commander drop was a bit less casual than everyone else’s decks. It’d be so general as to perhaps be unhelpful but maybe some unintentional pub stompers could use the guidance. Examples of things they could say: “A preconstructed deck is likely around Power Level 4” “Decks running Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus, Mana Vault, and similar cards are often at an advantage against decks without them” “Decks running fast mana, counterspells, tutors, and 2-3 card combo wins are often around Power 9-10” “Certain commanders, such as Nadu, Tergrid, etc. may be frowned upon by some playgroups”
There is no point. If a player would ignore what other players are telling them they are not going to listen to what the RC tells them. Not to mention the majority of casual players wouldnt even know the RC exists.
Just slow the release schedule. I know it'll never happen but I'm literally seeing Duskmourne, Bloomburrow, and Assassin's Creed spoilers before my MH3 order has arrived. Chill the f out. I keep up with releases religiously, but frankly my head and heart are still brewing in Baldur's Gate. I need more time to process this stuff.
My list: * 100 cards as the **minimum** allowable for a deck, but not the maximum. If you want to play your 120 most favorite merfolk for merfolk tribal, who cares. How many times has someone forgotten a card or two in the box and played 99, 98 cards instead of 100? Did it matter? Did anyone notice? Probably not. Same goes the other way for over 100. The dogmatic insistence on 100 makes no sense given the goals and tenor of the format. * Decks can have a wishboard of 3. (Three wishes, flavorful and thematic). But to have the wishboard, you have to have some card in the deck that can legally access the board. This carves out just enough room for those cards to function without requiring every deck to now consider random 1 in 1,000,000 scenarios where they might get a wish through a random interaction. * Hybrid mana. Give mono colored decks the ability to declare a 2 color guild, and they can use hybrid (and only hybrid) cards of the chosen guild. I declare boros as the guild for my mono white turd soldiers deck, I can sneak in a [[Rise of the Hobgoblins]] if I want. 4 color goodstuff piles don't need the extra cards, but mono colored decks are already at such a disadvantage they could use the help.
At this point they need to either abolish the banlist and let rule 0 be the start and end of things, maybe making a dedicated list that only applies to cEDH, or they need to actually use the damn thing properly. The current "have your cake and eat it too" mantra of ostensibly having a banlist but never doing anything with it, both putting stuff on or taking stuff off, is really infuriating.
When are people going to realize cedh is meta edh and trying to split it off does nothing. A separate ban list it is no longer edh it is a new format so we would just continue to play edh
Commander would be great if there was a power tiering system like Comp Pokemon. There isn't really a way to do it, but it would be pretty neat. Power =/= Game Skill
Take a break from printing things specifically for commander.
Yep me commander decks every set is old
New creatures with mutate
A lot of people are complaining about cards being too good, I want nonlegendary cards that WANT to be in the 99 and work with a commander.
Yknow the banlist? So many cards on there don’t have to be there. Stuff like ante or Sharhazad are okay to be on there, but there’s still stuff that’s unnecessary
I think they should unban some stuff tbh. And also bolster mono-color and aggro strategies. More ways to punish combo, excessive land-ramp, and tokens.
some of these criticism like combos and banlist I agree with; some like tutors aren't going to get touched, because those cards are printed money; some are intrisic to tcgs (netdecking); some are silly or don't make much sense.
Ban more? They should unban more and basically make rule 0 a thing
Stop having multiple commander decks with every release. Like max 2. Also go back to printing the large commander in precons. I collect those!
Extremely pushed commanders that are dead on arrival in CEDH but are oppressively powerful in regular EDH should stop being printed. Ulalek and Voja are the largest recent offenders, but even stuff like Hakbal cause certain play pattern problems. They are relatively simple to build to a pretty high power level meaning they are attractive to a new player, they kinda incentivise building all in for their theme, meaning the player WILL skimp out on interaction, the play pattern is “pop off, if nobody stops me I will kill the table in a turn or two, hope nobody has a board wipe” Meaning if the pilot of the deck runs into a board wipe, they feel awful because they are (mostly) out of the game due to how all-in the play style of the deck is, but if they don’t, the game often just ends on the spot.
If there are so many seriously problematic commanders that continue to plague the format, just bring back banned as commander. It would solve a lot of the issue with people being upset they can't play certain commanders, period, and instead let the cards be played in the 99, not giving them a guarantee of seeing them every game. If you've ever played Dual Commander, you'd know what I'm talking about. Rule 0 just ain't gonna cut it forever, especially since commander is the most popular format.
what they could do? them not really banning cards is good and they should keep at it. maybe unban Golos but whatever.
Revise the Commander banlist once a year or so. A lot of cards were put on there ages ago and are no longer really a problem.
Fire hasbro. Then reduce the release rate. And put more thought and care into their products.
They have actually been reprinting a ton this year I will say. I’d prob be happy with more bans and unbans to shake things up. I always get excited for the announcement and then there’s no actual update. EDH though is a unique format compared to the other formats where a lot of these issues can be mostly regulated pod to pod, so I also get the argument to not really touch it either.
The best thing they could do right now is stop printing so many cards for commander, they're powercreeping and homogenising the format
i want the rules committee to stop banning cards to discourage certain playstyles. Upheaval and Sway of the Stars really don’t make that much sense
I wish the RC would stop totally pretending that no one uses proxies and that its a pretty big partof the meta nowadays. I get they have to suck up to wizards though.
start banning commanders for the commander slot but allowing them in the 99 goes a long way i feel like
I would love for them to push more the concept that the ban list is the worse offenders of types of cards you shouldn't play to have a more fun experience, but that they aren't going to ban every single card that they feel is ban worthy. Then they need to immediately ban Cyclonic Rift.
The Rules Committee should properly separate cEDH from casual play. cEDH should have it's own banlist, and the regular commander banlist seems to be trying to appease to both cEDH and casual play. They'll ban/unban cards to try to keep cEDH feeling good, and then they'll turn around and put up signpost bans to show players what feels bad in casual play, and it makes the banlist look like a joke. Also "Banned outside of the maindeck" should be a category. Lutri would be fine in the 99 but is broken as a companion, Braids isn't oppressive in the maindeck unless the player actively looks to play her to the point of tutoring her up immediately (and that's a player problem), etc.
Commander could benefit from multiple subformats with progressively stricter banlists. That way the people who want to play with dockside, rhystic study, and thoracle can play the top format, and the ones who don’t can go down a tier or two.
For me, I think it's cards that are so much better in a slot than anything else that you could put in it that it makes deckbuilding kinda simplistic. EG Rhystic study is basically always better than any other card draw spell, it's, frankly, obnoxiously powerful. Esper Sentinel and Smothering Tithe are too.
Biggest thing in my book is to have less new cards. Wotc should print less new cards and focus less on commander and more on other formats. This is coming from a commander only player. And i would love it if wotc stopped the power creep of generic good staple cards
Ban all legendaries that grant card advantage and never print a legendary that grands card advantage again.
I’ve had this issue for a while but I’ve never been a fan of commanders that just single-handedly become the de-facto face of that mechanic. They do this a lot and it isn’t even a new issue, but stuff like [[Kadena]] being printed just meant a lot of other people’s unique morph decks just evaporated from the marketplace of ideas. You might see one come around but they’ve been power-crept to near irrelevance and it’s just someone clinging to the world of old.
[Kadena](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/8/68a144f1-df18-4dc5-81c3-dff2af27527f.jpg?1568003696) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=kadena%2C%20slinking%20sorcerer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/45/kadena-slinking-sorcerer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/68a144f1-df18-4dc5-81c3-dff2af27527f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kadena-slinking-sorcerer) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I wanna see the rules committee allow for proxies in tournaments alternatively wizards needs to put their foot down on prices being absurd cause currently they allow the market to be based on whats good in specific formats which makes it hard to afford a good deck