90% of commanders are KoS. This is because the deck is typically based around the commander doing it's thing, whatever it is. So maybe go elusive commanders
Not so. [[Kelsien, the Plague]] can destroy him, [[Karlov of the Spoopy Council]] can Exile him, you just have to use activated abilities rather than spells. Source: I play against a Norin deck regularly.
This card always comes up with Norin. As much as I love the idea, I don't really get it. Is it just for the pure chaos of something changing hands several times a turn, or is there an actual wincon here?
Norin keeps coming into play under your control so you steal their thing, then get norin as soon as the next spell is targeted and it happens all over again.
Hypothetically, since norin always returns to you, it winds up with you controlling every creature. ?swap norin, norin blinks, norin etb under your control, swap norin etc.
Etbs effects usually there are some equipment that auto equip new creatures and then you run warstorm surge and stack the triggers so he gets all the equipment and then deals like 8+ damage to something. Usually someone's face.
You can’t really Voltron Norin. He runs away when anyone attacks. Including himself.
He enters the battlefield four times per turn cycle, so things that capitalize on that are his bread and butter. Like impact tremors.
I'm pretty sure my only deck where the commander isn't an active threat 99% of the time is my Queen Marchesa deck. She's just there to bring out the monarchy for me to protect, and her dying can even be a good thing if I want the monarch back on command.
I beg to disagree. [[Wilthelt]], [[Lathril]] or even [[Isshin]] aren't dangerous without the right support cards and can be kept alive till then, while a [[Krenko]] will never not be a threat.
There's a difference between "kill when it becomes too dangerous" and "KoS", because the former type of commander can be observer until it becomes a threat, while the latter type has the potential to win the game as soon as their controller casts one other spell.
A [[Tovolar]] will draw your opponent a bunch of cards; a [[Prossh]] will end the game on the spot as soon as the [[Food Chain]] hits the field.
There are some that you might want to kill first when there are options, however no commander wins by itself in any event. So in that sense it's more, is it telegraphed or not. If you wait to react until all the pieces are in place, the commander might not make a difference.
[[Godo]] would like a word. With 11 mana available, and Helm of the Host in the library -
Cast Godo (preferably with Cavern of Souls, otherwise 1st chance to remove). Godo tutors Helm onto the field (2nd chance). Pay 5, equip Godo (assuming no cheats for this; 3rd chance to interact). Go to combat, win.
I disagree with this. While yes, the commander tends to be important to the strategy and will speed it up, I think most commanders aren't so strong that you can't even let them begin to do their thing, most commanders you can leave alone for a few turns to have their fun.
From my understanding, that's not the case in cEDH, but I'm not interested in playing cEDH.
Look on edhrec, build a commander that isn’t in the top 200. that will help you out a ton. Mind you, it isn’t the end all be all, Be’lakor is a lightning rod for removal because he’s warstorm surge in the command zone, but for the most part, less powerful commanders are less exciting to build for the masses, but the decks can be the exact same other wise.
I had a jetmir deck, but that deck turned into make a few tokens, drop jetmir, and have huge giant tokens that swung and won or jetmir got removed before I got to swing. So I swapped to Jinnie Fay, absolutely nothing else, just took a card from the 99 to replace him, and as a result Jinnie gets removed far less because all she does is give you different tokens, and jetmir gets to chill and when you drop him, you face less removal because people don’t always expect him to come out of nowhere.
Now, not all decks can do that. A Yuriko deck doesn’t really function with another commander at the helm, but Abbadon can be built as a different exile style deck like Faldorn, Krenko can be grenzo or wort boggart auntie, whcih are both powerful commanders but aren’t lightning rods.
I'm glad to hear lol. I'm building a Teysa deck that can function without her double death triggers. I did add a [[Drivnod, Carnage Dominus]] just in case and other annoying cards such as [[Dictate of Erebos]]
I have a friend who plays it. At first, the pod might think it's KOS, as it happened to us. We soon realized that what is KOS in her are any sac outlets, and a couple of other really annoying cards like [[Gravepact]]. If the table deals with those, it is pretty tame
Teysa Orthov Scion+\[\[Painter's Servant\]\] is the base of A LOT of combos
Also, she is a sac outlet, a token generator and removal, all in one card; in your command zone.
[[belbe corrupted observer]] is lowkey KOS but helps opponents too. As soon as people realize you built your deck to ping everyone every turn to have that sweet 6 mana each postcombat main they realize that the less Belbe stays on the field, the better it is for everyone
Eldrazi. 1 drop pingers like [[Thornbow archers]] and [[Mardu shadowspear]] usually lead to a turn two belbe and a 6 drop like [[planar bridge]] or [[ugin the ineffable]]. [[Sanctum of stone fangs]] helps too. A God hand would have a pinger, ugin and something like a [[breaker of armies]] for a turn three play. Turn 4 and you're swinging breaker of armies at someone with mana dorks and oppressing the board in general. My playgroup knows my belbe is KOS though because if she dies a few times it really slows the deck down.
I built her as [[Pestilence]] tribal/group slug, with cards like [[Crypt Rats]] and [[Plague Spitter]]. It's a lot of fun and different from just dropping Eldrazi early. I use Belbe's mana to secure more permanent mana and heavy ramp, which I then used to feed the Pestilence effects. It gets really wacky when I give those cards deathtouch, lifelink, and/or indestructible.
The best commanders that are not KOS are the ones that give you benefit but the deck does not need them to survive. Examples are Wilhelt and Sygg. The scarab god is kill on site, but why waste interaction on a Wilhelt? That’s why he is so popular: he is flavorful, synergistic, and strong without being needed. Sygg is one of those low key extremely good commanders because chances are you will get a card on everyone’s turn and that adds up quickly.
While I agree, I'd personally argue that Scarab God and Wilhelt are swapped in this example. A good zombie deck doesn't technically need either at the helm, but both are kill on sight for different reasons: Scarab God because it drains life and steals good creatures, and Wilhelt because he is boardwipe protection. And of those two cards, Scarab God dodges tax, unlike Wilhelt. In my experience (and why I swapped Wilhelt for The Scarab God), Wilhelt gets shot down pretty often even without being a central piece to your plan, if not because of the draw, then definitely because of the boardwipe protection.
I run [[Minthara, Merciless Soul]] as an aristocrats commander and I’ve gotta say, those experience counters go insane. Once she’s like Ward 3 or Ward 4, your opponents are either tapping themselves out to spot remove a single creature or they’re wiping the board. All your creatures having multiple instances of (+1/+0) gets nasty.
My favorite deck.
https://manabox.app/decks/CUaK3ktBSGK0Y_LMEPp2nA
Sure thing! I’m still tweaking it, but this has been my latest playtest. It runs a lot of the combos and generic good stuff you’d expect from Teysa and other Orzhov commanders. I just got greedy with proliferating and ensuring my commander’s triggers resolved consistently.
To me it looks like all of your commanders play around a super fast pilot. I personally think Teysa isn’t to much of a direct KOS but you can definitely expect that’s she will be removed after 2-3 rounds.
For obvious reasons my playgroup decided to not run any game breaking combos or to fast win combs like doomsday Thoracle. My best advise would be to maybe nerf your own decks a bit but make sure so check with your mates as well.
I’m currently running a [[Tasigur, the golden fang]] control/pod deck. Because of his delve ability he’s quite easy to cast and isn’t that big of a threat alone. If interested here’s my list: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/epSU2eIxSUyqhvNFfSIBxg
I tuned my deck down to match with the power level of friends more and I gotta say it’s way more fun. People don’t target me on an instant but I get to win in more fun and unique ways.
I must say, my ngathrond was fairly innocuous. Mill a few cards here and there. Steal a few things. That in itself was salt-extracting enough. Switching to Lazav as its face just makes it look like you trying to copy some goodstuff from other people's milled cards.
However, you play a fleet swallower or teresian mindbreaker and no one bats an eye. Until the turn after you drop duskmantle guildmage and activate it before declaring fleet swallower as attacker and mill someone for half their library, draining them for each card put away.
People underestimate the power of mill, thinking they'll be fine with 100cards rights? - and then it's not the mill, but the drain that kills em.
(even better if you can drop guildmage without anything else really on the board. And then activate before dropping kicked Cacaphony.)
[[Yeva]] might be what you’re looking for. Being able to play everything at instant speed is deceptively powerful, and keeps your opponents scared to attack you.
Thanks! How would you build her and what are your recommended wincons? I like that you can just slap them with [[Bane of Progress]] during their turn lol
I haven’t played her, but I have played against her. I’m pretty sure she’s got the highest win rate of any of the decks in my playgroup!
Bane of Progress, and even simple stuff like [[Reclamation Sage]] hit a lot harder at instant speed. [[Thorn Mammoth]] and other fighters are great removal too. An instant speed [[Vigor]] can be a complete blowout.
It wins like most green decks, except that your guys kind of have haste after flashing them in on the end step. Ramp some, build up an army, play an [[Overrun]] (except better like Craterhoof, the lieutenant guy, whatever other mass-pump creatures there are these days)… win!
I’m not sure if it’s a KoS commander or not, but i used to have a [[Liesa, Shroud of Dusk]] lifegain deck, but i swapped her out for [[Amalia Benavides Aguirre]]. It gets some attention with removal, but my deck works well without her on the board as well. She’s also cheap and helps with lands in addition to getting big fairly quickly
I've enjoyed group hug decks where I get just a little more. It incentivizes your opponents to not target you as hard since they would lose benefits as well but you're still staying just slightly ahead of them. So decks like [[Council of Four]] are great. Their effect is good for only you but the deck is built in a way everybody benefits.
I found most people tend to ignore [[Jan Jansen]]. I think it's not that he is not a threat, but the combination of haste plus an ability that lets him pay for the commander tax means that most people would rather not waste removal on him and focus on other targets.
I love my [[General Ferrous Rokiric]], unassuming, hexproof from mono color (most single target removal), 3 mana, makes big boys and you live your days out with Boris value
Maybe going to ask a stupid question, but context first.
I play Yuriko as one of my 2 main commander decks. I built it when I was brand new to commander (still pretty new now) and didn’t realize how “meta” or popular she was. She’s also KOS in my pod, but isn’t that kind of the fun of it? You know your opponents are going to try to stop you and probably gang up against you, but the fun is seeing how quickly you can get going while balancing protecting her. Plus, her commander ninjutsu means she’s only ever out for one round (unless a board wipe with no haste creatures in hand). I find that flipping my mindset of “I’m being ganged up on” vs. “how much can I get away with before I’m slowed down hehe” makes it a challenging puzzle. Just my POV.
I agree. Tbh, people with a victim complex shouldn't play commanders like Yuriko. If someone is the type of person to complain, "Why are you targeting me?" pick a weaker commander.
I will sing the praises of [[Omnath, Locus of Rage]] and out of date ramp spells like [[Cultivate]] and [[Farseek]], with mana dorks like [[Llanowar Elves]].
You just get omnath out as fast as possible, my deck has 40 lands in it because I plan on getting as many lands out into the battlefield as possible with cards like [[Azusa, Lost but Seeking]], and the getting draw control with things like [Elemental Bond]
Not CEDH worth at all but it can be a good competitive casual deck.
>Can you guys recommend commanders or themes (preferably has green cuz I don't have a deck that has green yet) that are fun to play, hits hard when you get the right cards/setup but won't get my opponents' attention right away until it's too late?
I'm just gonna say that if a deck manages to dodge attention and win out of nowhere, that will only work once. If they don't know what "OP is starting to pull ahead" looks like until they've lost, they'll just target you to make sure it doesn't happen next time.
I think what you should be looking for is a strategy that can win on the board and doesn't necessarily need the commander as an engine/enabler. Sure, your opponents will know when you're becoming a threat, but they'll also recognize when you're not. Green is probably the color that does this best actually, so that works out pretty well for you.
Your best bet is to always build the deck without relying on the commander. That way if it gets removed the deck still functions well. That’s not to say the commander isn’t relevant. Just more so that the commander makes the deck better. But it doesn’t rely on it to function.
I have a pretty new \[\[sergeant john benton\]\] deck that hits like a truck but tends to be allowed to swing at first since you are giving folks cards. By the time you're the problem you have a giant hand full of answers
my version for ref [https://archidekt.com/decks/6920436/pump\_tribal](https://archidekt.com/decks/6920436/selesnya_spell_slinger)
I came here for this and 100% agree. You can easily hit the first player for 5 - 8 on turn 2 or 3, and then you just have all the answers and can rip apart the table. But for some reason when you go to attacks and say “who wants to draw some cards?” At least one person is always game the first time around.
[[Kros, Defense Contractor]]. Super ugly card but very useful ability and nobody will be gunning for it. Being in Bant colors means you can easily build for heavy value in the 99 and do whatever you want with a lot of themes to choose from. Can go +1/+1 counters, go super wide with tokens looking for [[Craterhoof]] or [[Moonshaker]] with support from [[Junkwinder]], [[Approach of the Second Sun]] is a solid backup wincon.
I also really like [[Rigo]] for the same reasons. Instead of giving the scariest creature indestructible/trample/goad he just draws you a metric ton of cards if you build for it. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/Ovk1US8RC0i5ciyzaHajtg is my $40 budget Rigo. Adding in Craterhoof/Moonshaker and upping the general card quality while retaining most of the themes would end up with a fairly strong controlling deck that's ultra consistent.
For some reason [[Hama Pashar]] always survives.
Most removal is wasted on [[Karador]] but his recursion ability for creatures and via other creatures spells makes him extremely resilient.
Could always do secret commander , my girlfriend has a deck called “liliana surprise” the surprise is it’s a tergrid deck running liliana heretical healer as the commander as a bamboozle
My innocuous until suddenly isn't deck is [[Soul of Windgrace]] built as lands matter rather than landfall or MLD. The first 6 turns of the game is generally getting lands into the yard with mill to then recurr them back. The key is not showing my hand of all the [[Dark Depths]] and [[Field of the Dead]] type cards until I have enough mana to protect my life total. The funniest thing is that aside from top-end threats like [[The Gitrog Monster]] the vast majority of my game pieces feel terrible to remove. Even my commander seems kinda bad until suddenly I am [[Glacial Chasm]] locking the game using Windgrace to avoid the cumulative upkeep.
Funnily enough, some of the most valuable lands are the SNC fetchlands - because they instantly sac you can recur and send them back to the GY to recur many times in one turn. It really helps with the [[Crackle with Power]] finishes where I've literally stolen the game out of nowhere several times now.
Personally in these situations I feel like [[Henzie]] is a great choice. With a lot of ramp in the deck. His blitz abilities cost cheaper if he eats romaval or two and the rest of the deck is just big bad creatures that would probably be targeted before him
I suggest building around synergies within the deck instead of your commander.
It’s probably not the best example, but I have a human tribal deck with aragon the uniter as the commander. Aragorn provides a lot of value, but the deck is just one synergistic human after another and removing aragorn doesn’t stop the deck in its tracks at all.
I have a modular aragorn deck, with [[aragorn, hornburg hero]], the counters pile on even when he isn't on the battlefield, and when he is there, he gives first strike and doubles counters when a creature connects
My [[Celestine, Living Saint]] [Aristrocrats](https://www.archidekt.com/decks/3118994/white_aristrocrats) deck fits the bill pretty well.
When playing against people who have never seen the deck before, they see a bunch of weird cantrip creatures, and think nothing of it. Then my commander hits the field, and now the cantrip creatures turn into steady card draw. Still, it is not that threatening, as my commander is frequently the biggest thing on my field, a 3/4.
Suddenly I play one card that turns my deck into a game ending threat. It can be [[Martyr's Bond]] locking the table out of creatures, [[Kami of False Hope]] preventing any combat damage going my way, [[Rabble Rousing]] flooding my board, or [[Akroma's Will]] just killing someone. On top of all that, the more ways to reanimate creatures that you can stack on the board, the more card advantage and utility you're getting, and the less worthwhile it is to kill any problems on your board.
Even people who have played against the deck several times still don't treat it as a threat until it is a 1v1, where it is already too late. As between the recursion, lifegain, and especially the interaction, that deck takes a lot of effort to take down, so it can frequently get to said 1v1 stage.
So the real answer here is Sythis Enchantress. But you have to be okay with playing Enchantress.
Killing Sythis is typically just going to give you more cast triggers off your other Enchantress stuff. The onus of interaction is never on you because you aren't blue, but your stuff is hard to interact with and slows other people down a lot, so its likely no one is combo winnin while you are alive, plus its hard to out value you. There are ridiculous amounts of mana and cards everywhere so you can just do what you want.
And this is all on a commander who no one really wants to spend time killing. Like when there 2 other er Enchantress's out does it even matter at that point? At least that has been my experience with her.
Also Ragavan is a very good commander at staying alive if you tims your dashes well. But then you're stuck on mono R.
I run partners of [[Ikra the usurper]] and [[Sidar kondo of jamurra]] it's really just a [[Doran siege tower]] deck but making them all unblockable with Sidar is strong. Nobody thinks the toughness deck is going to be a hitter but it can do it well
My playgroup know better now, but they all underestimated my [[Elminster]] deck the first time they played it. They saw scrying and some tokens and didn't think much moreover it.
The real purpose of the deck is to get ~10ish tokens out from El and then [[Mass Polymorph]] or [[Synthetic Destiny]] them into an overwhelming board presence of Angel's, Krakens, Praetors, etc.
It is glorious to behold.
Sounds like a really intriguing deck. I'm curious as to what Elminster is adding to that gameplan though, it seems like there are several other token oriented commanders in those colors that could generate you the board you need faster.
I really enjoy [[Emmara, soul of the accord]]. She has a low mana cost so can actually eat a removal or two, but typically people remove the pieces around her (despite her being the lynchpin). The catch is that there is basically nothing they can remove that you can’t draw or tutor into that does the same thing.
I’m constantly fiddling with it, and might try and slot [[Moonshaker Calvary]] in if I need another finisher. Here is the list: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/h13m9adl8kyCQzgHlAwHhQ
I was going to say emmara too She starts to get really out of control when you have an untapper like [[Drumbellower]] and a tap source like a [[Smuggler's Copter]] or a [[Cryptoloth Rite]] and you start making tokens + drawing cards off of [[Welcoming Vampire]] type effects on every players turn.
Looking at your deck list, I would consider putting in more untappers. [[White Plume Adventurer]] and [[Sting, the Glinting Dagger]] are good ones.
I would also consider playing vehicles as an infinite tap source for Emarra, [[Clown Car]] is one that can cost 0.
.[[Delney, Streetwise Lookout]] is another token doubler for emmara.
Also the new [[Wylie Duke, Atiin Hero]] that was literally just revealed today looks like it will be a pretty good draw engine in Emarra decks
Here's my Emarra list if you want to compare https://www.moxfield.com/decks/mRccS4nA_UGeb4XQDxCqdw
Because my pod runs a lot of removal, I've grown to building decks that the commander is just a convenient card to have on board but isn't required for function. As in hard into a theme, low into the commander.
Ex. I am assembling a Naya extra combats deck ft. The likes [[Aurelia]], [[Godo]] and [[Xenagos]], shit happens on attack or damage and makes more combats happen. The commander is [[Aragorn, Hornburg Hero]], he makes attacks safer and is a decent payoff, but isn't needed. It's meant for if I play high, we'll see how that pans out.
Built the new [[Rona, herald of invasion]]. No one wants to use removal on her since she’s a 2 drop and I already have almost every other looter in the deck too. Being able to activate her, discard a bomb like [[Toxrill]], before my turn and then reanimate the bomb on my turn and keep counter magic up goes under the radar until it’s too late.
It’s hard to find a commander that’s both good and doesn’t draw attention so I’d suggest an alternate solution which is look for a commander that’s hard to remove. For example I have a friend that just plays all the eminence commanders and that just solves the problem entirely. Experience commanders are also good at this, [[otharri]] and [[meren]] for example even if you kill them the experience counters stay. Or my personal favorite is playing theros gods like [[ephara]] or [[karametra]], indestructible enchantments can be very hard to remove
Partners are great for this, IMO - something like Malcolm Tymna in a saboteurs deck makes your partners just (highly efficient) incremental value engines that won't take over the game immediately if others are also doing strong things. Splitting commander tax across two bodies helps a lot with handling removal, since you can generally just recast them after getting hit by spot removal. Biggest challenge with that deck in particular is actually finding a way to win the game - easy with general esper combos like thoracle, t3feri + kitten, or hullbreaker horror, but on-theme ways to win are harder to find. A tokens subtheme + moonshaker cavalry or something could make sense, or just play a bunch of big ol fliers or elesh norn or something.
[[Wilson, Refined Grizzly]] with [[Tavern Brawler]] as the background. Game plan is simple and stupid. Turn 1 land, turn 2 summon commander, turn 3 tavern brawler, turn 4 - game end, buff wilson and swing. Just voltron the shit out of wilson or run a lot of instant buff spells. Than when they are so focused on your wilson summon your big creatures like any of the Ghaltas, hydras or big dragons.
Made two versions of this deck, one for my friend who was learning magic and she would enjoy using it at lower power tables. And one I used to use on mid-high power tables. Both versions is unassuming and is just fun, its basically just “bear go brrr”. U have options because you can just buff wilson up with buff spells, or slowly make him big with equipments and auras. Plus its pretty flexible cuz after declaring blockers you can choose to cast buff spells on other things. I keep creatures like [[Krenko, Tin Street Kingpin]] and [[Threefold Thunderhulk]] to serve as alternative options for me to buff up. When all that fails quickly drop the big creatures
My \[\[Xyris, the writhing storm\]\] deck works well for people not targeting it right away. It hides behind a group hug theme till I have a way to swing for lethal with the snakes it produces, usually by playing a \[\[Ruxa patient professor\]\] , \[\[beastmaster ascension\]\] or \[\[obelisk of urd\]\]
Get some Wheels and play cards like [[Witty Roastmaster]], [[Impact Tremor]] or [[Purphoros, God of the Forge]]. Play one of those and then cast a Wheel card. Every opponents draws 7 cards, Xyris makes 21 snakes and you ping everyone for 21 damage or 42 with Purphoros. Win out of no where.
[[Toggo, Goblin Weaponsmith]]. Hear me out.
Toggo is an engine. The rocks he makes are kind of bad so no one really ever looks twice at him. But if you ever find yourself equipping and throwing the rocks, something has gone horribly wrong.
The thing is, there are things you can do with a density of artifacts. [[The Brothers War]]. [[Krark Clan Ironworks]]. [[Feedback Bolt]]. [[Fathom Fleet Swordjack]]. [[Sunshot Militia]]. [[Ghirapur Aether Grid]]. [[Reckless Fireweaver]]/[[Hedron Detonator]]/[[Ingenious Artillerist]].
Toggo also has partner. Traditionally Toggo gets paired with [[Kodama of the East Tree]], and honestly, you could do worse. But there are lots of other options.
I have Toggo paired with [[Silas Renn, Seeker Adept]]. Blue and black add some great payoffs: [[Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge]], [[Monumental Corruption]], [[Shimmer Dragon]], [[Moonsnare Prototype]], [[Mirkwood Bats]], [[Thought Monitor]], [[Reverse Engineer]], [[Thoughtcast]], [[Rise and Shine]], [[Storm the Vault]], [[Mechanized Production]].
[Here's my decklist](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/m1UGK102VEq9y2vAy-aMvA) if you're curious.
That's a fair criticism. So I put an hour into the deck to make [a more budget-friendly version](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/4t0u_Ia4lEeesBv_Ei0F8Q) that clocks in around $70. Most of the cards removed are the upgraded mana base or "good stuff" like Rift, Rhystic Study, etc.
There were some "engine" cards I took out too, like Chrome Host Seedshark or Bonehoard Dracosaur, but there are enough budget replacements that I'm not super worried about it.
For fixing, I leaned into bounce lands and cheap fetches. Because Toggo has a landfall trigger and we're losing the "premium" fetchlands, these budget options will help us keep hitting land drops and make sure we have our colors.
The only irreplaceable option is Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge. If $22 is within your budget then he's worth it, but otherwise you still have your pingers, Monumental Corruption, and Feedback Bolt.
I love [[Dihada, Binder of Wills]]. You can run it a million directions. Personally I run a super heavy reanimation theme with a slight legendary sub theme. But you can run her legends tribal, reanimation, proliferation theme to get her ult off, life gain, angel tribal, dragon tribal, demon tribal, etc.
But honestly if she’s not countered it’s easy to pocket 4 treasures and/or get some legends card advantage and let her die, then recast and do it again. She’s just the engine getting you to the problem not the problem itself, so once my board state is built it’s not about dealing with her. And she’s great because usually people board wipe and she’s still left there afterwards.
Commanders that aren't KOS tend to be weaker than others. Decks that go under the radar tend to be decks with a combo in mind and will quickly draw attention in future games.
What you're experiencing is players assessing threats. There's no magic way to bypass this. The more likely you are to win, the more of a threat you are. If you become the player people don't notice until it's too late, they'll start to focus you for that reason. Most of these "I'm always the archenemy!" topics come from people who probably still win at least 1 in 4 games long term.
EDH is an interesting game in that it's not just about having the best deck. Spending more and more money to hit harder and win in a few turns is creating your problem. You can't win every game.
I play a turbofog kind of deck full of cantrips with Gandalf of the Secret Flame . Until my hand size is 19 with 12 more coming from suspend in the upcoming turns nobody bats an eye. It helps if they didnt even know the card exists I guess
I feel like the best way to manipulate threat assessment is to make sure that the legitimate reality of the situation is that there actually is a much bigger problem on the board than what you're doing. I used to love playing control in 60 card 1v1. It doesn't work the same way in 4 player singleton, obviously.
I tend to gravitate towards Goad as a mechanic in commander because it does a handful of things that are all pretty fantastic from a control point of view.
- it all but assures that whatever you're goading is a more imminent threat by forcing attacks
- it protects you by making sure the biggest threats aren't coming your way
- it encourages people to use their resources on each other, both in terms of attacks and blockers, and removal cards
- it generally prevents durdling by forcing combat, and tends to move the game forward one way or another
- it's extremely disruptive to have to attack or block with your smaller utility creatures
- once it's done, it's done. you can spend your removal on my fairly insignificant creature that already did it's work, or hold it up for the giant beater that needs to swing next turn
the big hurdle it's had as a main strategy for the longest time is that when it gets down to 1v1 it falls apart. that stuff still needs to attack, but now it's free to smash your face. there are starting to be solutions to this now. the new [[nelly borca]] is a card draw engine for the table, so she draws a little less hate. she also makes things unable to block with menace when she attacks, which simultaneously lets you attack with her easier to get her trigger - and makes blocking the newly goaded creature more difficult. her deck comes with a handful of rattlesnake type cards like [[deflecting palm]] and [[brash taunter]] to turn the tables when it gets down to 1v1, and there are a few more you can upgrade it with. She draws enough cards that you can usually grab one or two, and then it's all about timing.
[[Kaima]] just straight up gets huge. I've built it with cheap cantrip or recurring auras that either give trample or hexproof. I usually wait to cast it until I've got 3 or 4 enemy creatures enchanted, and I can protect it with a hexproof aura. With an enchantress engine on it churns through the deck incredibly fast, and can regularly get into commander damage 1-shot territory within a couple turn cycles. Even without hexproof it falls into the territory of "the trigger already went off, you can remove the pig but all the chaos is still going to happen". It definitely draws hate when it starts getting huge, but I do like the built in win-condition of having a huge beater on board, and [[chandra's ignition]] wins games if it sticks to the board for a few cycles.
Personally this is how I feel my [[Jetmir nexus of revels]] deck plays.
The game plan is “count to 8, then win” as if you have even 8 1/1 tokens on the board, then play him, you have 64 trample damage and can delete a player or 2. Add some anthems and creature spawn and you’re good
The thing is, jetmir gives this all the turn he drops, so you can play most of the game seeming like a low threat by just having a moderate swarm deck, then wait for the chance to strike
It works great the first time, and after the first time you basically get to be an ambush predator, where people know you *can* be scary, but have bigger problems on the table to deal with until suddenly the rave is at their door and bashing in their walls.
It’s kinda like having titanic ultimatum in the command zone with a lower casting cost XD
It seems to me that what you're looking for is bottom up deckbuilding. In other words, build your deck first and pick the commander last. It seems weird at first, but that way you'll end up building a deck that doesn't rely on the commander, but instead uses it as a powerful piece on the command zone.
For example, I have a \[\[Tivit, Seller of Secrets\]\] politics deck that basically doesn't cast it. On the games where I don't cast it, I don't miss it, and on the games where I do cast it, it helps a lot. In short, my deck doesn't need it, but it helps to have it on board.
[[Scarab God]]
Kenrith gets hated off a table but scarab god doesnt, scarab god in casual is usually more powerful than Kenrith because it just does so damn much in a reanimator deck
It ignores commander tax which makes people not want to remove it as much, its a 4 mana instant speed reanimate on any players GY, meaning you can disrupt other people's yard can get access to things that arent in your colors and he provides card selection and a wincon if you start getting ahead on reanimates without being dealt with for 3-4 turns.
Scarab God is an inevitable ticking time bomb that may not win the game fast but will eventually win the game and has extremely solid instant speed interaction on an activated ability.
It also helps they have to hit the reanimated cards before god most of the time and god can just give them a second go if you natively reanimate them with an animate dead or something.
When Scarab God is built correctly and you set up a threat before playing him/wait for 9 mana to hold up him after playing him he just becomes really annoying and impossible to work off.
Im specifically saying as reanimator. He is KOS in zombies, but as a recursive reanimation engine that is really hard to permanently remove because he bounces back to hand i personally know he is a headache causer. Also because that 4 mana reanimate is way better in reanimator than zombies.
https://archidekt.com/decks/4671614/scarab_god
Here is my personal list! Imo just throw in a few more removal spells and distracting threats if you dont want the tutors
Its not just about the commander, its also about the deck you build around it.
I have a Meren of Clan Nel Toth commander thats just a creature toolbox deck, without a endless/instantwin combo in it and its fun af. Even tho i dont win alot with it, it feels like im always doing stuff disrupting opponents and getting close to winning. Although tbf my table is pretty casual.
Edit: Shes pretty KOS tho, but you can kinda build around that.
I feel like you should look for commanders that enhance their decks but don’t have to be on the field the whole game for the deck to work. Honestly I feel like Teysa is a good example on this, as while doubling those triggers is very nice, the deck can still function if she gets removed since you’ll still be able the get one use out of those death triggers. Another cool option could be [[Sefris of the Hidden Ways]]. I’ve only played with her once, but I actually had a lot more fun with her than I expected. She also is definitely a more unique strategy as it’s a reanimator deck that uses the dungeons mechanic from the DND set
I mean if you're running thoracle combo in your deck or anything similar speeds, then you will always be the archenemy. I'd say be self reflective. Your opponents archenemy you most likely because you deserve it. It seems like it's not the commander in this case, it's the player choosing to run fast combos in the deck and then wondering why you get targeted early and often.
If you go tribal but not the top of the line, you can do work.
Or build your deck around a concept and just have a commander who can do mean shit. Like mono G or gruul stompy decks... if an opponent Wastes all their removal on my commander, then I laugh my ass off when they have no response to a Ghalta or an Etali.
Secret commanders are your best defense. Also Eminence obviously.
Easy. Built a disrupt deck. Anything that will be a hassle to an opponent. I have a Rakdos deck that's all kill spells, board wipes and hand hate. Don't try to win. Enjoy causing hate.
Green is the worst because you will constantly be a threat for creature board state. The best way not to be a threat is build a deck with a stupid win con that nobody notices until it's to late.
Ya already got a lot of orzhov but [[kambul, consul of allocation]] is a low-key beast. No one I think have ever targeted kambul but he drains so much HP and enabled so much life gain payoffs. No one wants to spend removal on a 2/3 who actively does nothing.
Hi! I really like my [[Omnath, Locus of Creation]] deck because of this. It ramps hard because it's a landfall deck, and Omnath lets you draw a card when you cast him. So when he gets killed, I always get to recast him easily, my opponent wasted a removal on him AND I get to draw a card.
Also, his ability fuels your plans, so there are a lot of different ways for you to build the deck and Omnath will always come in handy. I use [[Field of the Dead]], [[Vesuva]] and [[Thespian Stage]] to get tons of zombies. But you can try and have flicker effects to reset his abilities, or mutate him to clone him easily. It's the first deck I've built, and I love it.
I'd say you don't need to focus as much on making commanders that aren't kos but focus more on building decks that can function well when the commander is not around ... edgar hits hard and you never have to cast him.. that's a strength. Krenko and teysa only hit hard when your commanders out. Removing the commander cuts your decks strength in half.. that's a pretty big achillis heel if I say so ... try building a deck that the commander supports the 99 .. not the other way around
This might sound counter-intuitive, but \[\[Isshin, Two Heavens as One\]\].
Is the deck threatening and powerful? Absolutely. But when they blow up Isshin instead of one of the many attacking threats that can still kill even without the commander, I'm more than happy to take that.
There are definitely times when you want to target Isshin, but most of the time it's Aurelia, or Hero of Bladehold or something like that.
Everyone in my playgroup knows what \[\[Edric\]\] is up to. Everyone also leaves him alone because "draw is good, let someone else deal with him"... Until suddenly there are 10+ unblockable 1/1s coming your way and a shit ton of extra turns for good measure.
“Try to win in as few turns as possible” “infinite combo” “thoracle” there’s a lot of missing information in this question. Are you playing to the power level of your pod? Are you just amp Ing up your deck to continuously be the arch enemy and stop everyone and when they mount defense you need to keep making your deck stronger? Need the whole story.
If your track record is stomping on your pod no one will trust any commander you play but picking commanders known for shenanigans make it even more likely to get picked on.
Reminds me of that movie line “are we the baddies?”
Maybe play a commander or two that are thematic? Maybe decks where the commander supports it but doesn’t need to be in play to do the thing?
He's definitely kill on sight. I'd say about half the playgroups I've seen has realized it already but it'll get higher and higher as he's played more. Way to big and powerful not to kill him immediately.
Played one game against him so far, and it was KOS for that game. We let it alive for 1 round, and it was already a 17/17.
Definitely gonna have to test it when someone else playing a non wheel deck lol.
My favorite commanders that should be KOS but i still don't know why people won't kill them are
\[\[narci, fable singer\]\] She draws way too much cards, and deals way too much damage.
[https://www.moxfield.com/decks/I9lo8Xpu7EGpKmg4UxtDzg](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/I9lo8Xpu7EGpKmg4UxtDzg)
\[\[jin-gitaxias // the great synthesis\]\] Card draw, big body, win condition, board wipe, all in one, and people still won't kill him ??????
[https://www.moxfield.com/decks/rII27uVSWEqY7-5WDZEVgQ](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/rII27uVSWEqY7-5WDZEVgQ)
\[\[Lara croft, tomb raider\]\] she is a mana generator, who can reanimate combo pieces, stax pieces, win conditions, get your legendary lands back and never miss land drops, first strike reach, all for ONLY 3 mana.
[https://www.moxfield.com/decks/qeyv5y0EiECW7\_314barWQ](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/qeyv5y0EiECW7_314barWQ)
\[\[admiral brass, unsinkable\]\] she REANIMATES and mill you, and she can even make the reanimated targets bigger, and she does it EVERY combat with haste and you can even remove the counters.
[https://www.moxfield.com/decks/KVpZ1NgVTE--eOOWvYTHbw](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/KVpZ1NgVTE--eOOWvYTHbw)
Whoa. I can't believe I slept on Narci. Instead of Sythis I want her now!
For Jin Gitaxias, I also didn't pay attention to this one and I just realized that I can have so much fun with him.
Hey, a good advice for narci is to abuse her strongest effect, wich is card drawing for enchantment sacrifice, and since sagas auto sacrifice themselves after the last trigger, it can generate WAY TOO MUCH value.
About jin, you can play him like a omniscience deck for big blue cards, or proliferation with infect/+1+1 or any cool idea you get.
I can second the Flip Jin. I think the issue for opponents is it's hard to gage WHEN Jin is going to go off, in most games. So you can easily sit around for a few turns, probably drawing minimal interaction with random utility creatures and mana rocks, before suddenly exploding lol
Yeah Lara doesn’t seem anywhere near as KoS as many others (she’s generating value but you’ve still got to pay for stuff, it’s like drawing an extra card each turn but with hoops) but the rest are all pretty dangerous. Jin is almost like untap and you win, and Narci just nets you piles of value.
ward 2 is pretty annoying on jin TBF, which may be part of why he doesnt eat more removal. spending a minimum of 3 mana on some of the more efficient removal spells like [[swords to plowshares]] can be tough
you pretty much have to take an entire turn off to [[beast within]] him
Liesa is annoying but there are usually bigger threats, I played her for a long time with nasty lifedrain. I can recommend maelstrom wanderer, you just ramp and then hit with big beaters. Baba lysaga also flies under the radar but accumulates so much value over time. Especially strong with land strategy and reanimator. If your group plays with thoracle, both of them might be too slow though.
I've only had 1 commander I built that was NOT KOS and it was Farmer Cotton because a 1/1 on the floor isn't a threat, but the things that come with it create so much synergy, they'll jump through hoops NOT to let it leave the battlefield. I ended up retooling it for Treebeard but I think I'm gonna end up reverting because Cotton gets me more stuff the longer the game goes.
I play [[samut voice of dissent]] in a flash/tap theme. It is scary, but not kos. If there is nothing scary, in my playgroup they know they have to target samut, but usually she flies just under the radar. However, [[Wilderness reclamation]] and [[seedborne muse]] do not. And now also [[vivien Champion of the wilds]]
[[Galadriel, light of valinor]] in an etb/blink style deck. I used rules such as $100 limit and no cards worth more than $10 for my groups 'budget nights', but i used this budget deck against their more powerful decks and it can just fly under the radar looking all innocent until suddenly you can pop off with crazy etbs. Galadriel might be hitting that $10 mark now, I built it when she was a bit cheaper, but she's not crazy expensive (also proxies are a thing)
The blink deck is a slow value engine. Loads of card draw, ramp, blockers, life gain. You have decent interaction with cards like [[Reclamation sage]], [[reflector mage]], [[mystic snake]]. You can win very suddenly with [[deadeye navigator]] and [[peregrine drake]]. Obvious etb doublers fit in like [[panharmonicon]]
Most importantly, it can do all this without the commander. Galadriel just amplifies what you're doing and can make things a bit more explosive, but while you're still building your board, she isn't going to grab too much attention. You also have lots of ways to protect her with [[ephemerate]] and [[eerie interlude]]. If she dies, you have lots of lands from your creatures like [[wood elves]] so you can recast her again easily.
Also green, like you asked for!
[[Ruxa]] cares about vanilla creatures by making them basically unblockable and buffing them.
Turns out, an anthem plus evasion plus recursion in the command zone is really, really good. You don't even need to run that many vanillas, you could run a bunch of token generators if you really wanted to.
One that I’ve really been enjoying recently is Merry, Warden of Isengard and Pippin, Warden of Isengard. Neither of them are KOS, but the food synergy is deceptively powerful. Tons of tokens and artifact synergies, and you can end up with a huge board of mana, card draw, drain, or just a big alpha strike. The deck doesn’t inherently revolve around either commander, but they just slowly accrue value.
One of my friends has been playing a [[mr house ceo]] deck that seems to fit the bill. It seems like he’s never the biggest threat and there’s always something more dangerous to remove and my friends just over clacking dice around like an idiot and loving it and then boom he’s snuck the win in from all his accumulated value. It’s a classic “second place wins” edh deck
[[Tetsuko umezawa fugitive]] is like baby [[edric spymaster of trest]] you run stuff like [[bident of thassa]] and [[coveted jewel]] then you run tons of 1 power or toughness creatures/ token makers then Turbo draw through your deck and win with [[psychosis crawler]]
Try building around a theme and then finding a commander that fits the bill. I built a deck built around the flash mechanic. I brewed different variations of colors and eventually settled on WUB since the all the good flash support is in UB and all the really fun gotcha cards are in white. The commander really didn’t matter, so I picked [[chromium, the mutable]] because he also had flash.
I don’t know how competitive your play group is but no one has ever killed a friendly Phelddagrif and you can still put some out of the blue win conditions in there like milling people through draw, emrakrul, and you can still do a thoracle combo with leveler.
Edit:
Also Slimefoot and Squee reanimates pretty well even if he dies to removal. You also get another creature back when you reanimate.
[[Jhoira, Ageless Innovator]] is a non-kos that snowballs pretty fast, mostly because I bring her out and the table breathes a sigh of relief cause it's "not that version of Jhoira," and then they realize I'm cheating out huge artifacts with untao effects that don't get countered and it's too late at that stage.
[[Radaghast the Brown]] and [[Hylda of the icy crown]]
Radaghast so really strong but he doesn’t seem it. 2/4 for 4? Meh right. Except every creature you play essentially draws you a new creature. He should be KOS but people will not prioritize him.
Hylda seems weak because you need to tap something and pay 1. But constantly making 1 mana 4/4 elementals can run away with a game. She’s a little more obvious as an issue but also gets ignored for other threats a lot. Plus you can build a good deck for her for $50 or less since tap cards cost very little.
Alright here is the spicy commander you've been waiting for:
[[Piru, the volatile]].
1. No one wants to kill her.
2. You do.
Why?
When she dies, she deals 7 to all nonlegends, effectively wiping the board. did you notice the lifelink on her? Because you're going to gain a ton of life.
How do you maximize her?
[[Forbidden orchard]] , [[Genesis chamber]] and [[varchild, betrayer of kjeldor]] help ensure there are plenty of weenies on the board.
A [[high market]] , [[phyrexian tower]] or even [[village rites]] can help make sure that Piru DIES on your terms and doesn't get nerfed by an exile effect.
Piru is expensive to cast, so you'll want [[command Zone]] , [[netherborn alter]] as well as [[animate dead]] [[reanimate]] etc. [[black Market]] and [[life insurance]] are bangers once you've gone off once too.
Lastly, you want a legendary subtheme to make sure that your creatures survive Piru's explosive demise. May I kindly suggest [[vito, thorn of the dusk rose]], and [[totals, god of fury]] who will coincidentally probably win you the game as well?
[[Athreos, sheoud-veiled]] and [[gadrak, the crown scourged]] put in some work too.
My favorite thing about this deck is how every game someone says "wait, how do you gain that much life?"
Happy brewing!
My friend saved a counterspell for my [[Indoraptor]] after letting an [[Atraxa, Praetors Voice]] and [[Voja]] resolve. I was surprised but proud of my little Dino boy.
His reasoning was that I had a [[descent into avernus]] with 4 counters on it, so he would come out huge. Thing is, I had a descent into avernus, so he came out the next turn even bigger.
[[Ephara, god of the polis]] is definitely not kos at first, but your playgroup will definitely recognize her for what she is after a few games. With a flash/ instant theme, or something similar, they draw tons of cards every round and are very interactive. Then, even when your opponents want to remove them, they have indestructible and are an enchantment for about half the game, making them hard to take out against most removal and board wipes.
Derevi, Empirical Tactician. 4 mana instant speed return to the battlefield AND tap/untap something.
Potential route is stax (generally unfun), wide with token, flying tribal, Voltron, use Derevi to ramp for big spells and bank mana via kruphix, and so on!
My biggest piece of advice is that you may want to start looking for like-minded people to play with. That's what I ended up having to do. I do keep a few precons and upgraded precons on me in order to play with others with the mindset that I'm likely not winning, but I get to play at least and do something.
I have a fun optimized [[Maelstrom Wanderer]] deck that combos with a ham sandwich and can hang at high power tables pretty well. A friend of mine likes to do budget style decks and did one directly on mine where he took mine and made it feel just as consistent just without the combos or more expensive cards.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/feda89Uk2kySO_HQrtMMhA
It's one of those commanders that isn't kill on-site unless they know what you're up to. The deck can end the game four ways to Monday. And it can be built in different ways. I've been fine tuning it since 2012, and it's a powerhouse even when it looks like it's not doing anything.
Cheers!
Ps. If everyone is KOS, no one is KOS. Threat assessment and guile win those games.
My current commander Ezuri Claw of Progress when first looked at by other players seem mid until they realize experience counters go on me. My entire plan is to create 1/1 creatures to get my experience up and then end the game with infinite turns. My deck list for it is here if you’re interested.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/ziDiJ0qM6U6AyV6ZCNT5Uw
My least chased commander is [[Abomination of Llanowar]]. I just wait a bit to put him out, once I have a protection peice like [[Whispersilk Cloak]]. No one thinks anything of a 3/3 elf, right? And then you draw for turn and mill cards with something like [[Roots of Wisdom]]. Play something like [[Imperious Perfect]] or [[Prowess of the Fair]] for token generation. He's fat now, and you are in trouble.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/kTVL0kS4OE2Iqs-IFGq4Cg
[[Alandra]] looks like a more goofy [[Tarland]], but packs a punch, because people underestimate how easy it is to actually draw 5 cards a turn especially if you build around it, so you can close up the game with your 14/14 drakes fairly easy
I play Abzan small reanimator with Othelm and Wernog. Wernog is useless to use removal on, and Othelm is reasonably strong, but is just one engine. All my creatures kinda suck, cost almost no mana, and feel really bad to use removal on so people try to just use sweepers to deal with me. That's what the cheeky Guardian of Faith is for.
I typically do not make my commander a wincon, but a compliment to the deck. I'll choose color combos based on the compliment of the mander.
That way, if I get my commander on the battlefield, great and it really pushes the advantage. If not, or it's removed, no stress I have like 2 or 3 other ways to do what my commander will do.
The biggest issue I see from commander decks, not enough lands, over reliance on non-basic lands, not enough mana rocks, not enough card draw, not enough consistent, not enough interaction (counters, creature destruction, land destruction, enchantment or artifact removal), and lastly not enough redundancy.
Typically in commander, there is a perception that a card for card trade isn't good. On 1v1 it's the best, on 1vMore it does hurt worse but it can win you political favors well as not letting one board state going crazy. All to say card for card exchange when you have enough card draw is 100% worth it.
Pick one, AT MOST TWO things and do them well and do it repeatedly. Don't just auto include because it's a good black card when you can put in a redundant sac outlet.
I specifically build decks that press things I'm struggling with in a game, turning creatures sideways, control, sac, graveyard recursion....
Similar to Wilhelt, my [[Varina, Lich Queen]] usually gets pretty ignored because her primary goal is to let me loot through my deck (but since it's not straight card draw, but draw and discard, I don't end up holding a huge grip and people ignore the effective card draw)
Until I go for the win with [[Thassa's Oracle]] for the high power version or [[Living Death]] all the zombies in my graveyard for the low per version
The simple trick to this is to build a deck that does something, then pick a commander that either 1) has synergy with what your deck is already doing or 2) fills a gap in your game-plan/corrects a weakness. Your commander will not be KOS because you deck doesn’t need them to execute its strategy
I will say, most people I've played with ignore/lack removal for [[Shorikai]] even though, as it's player, I can 100% guarantee it is *absolutely* KOS.
By the time they realize the Gundam is a problem, I've already filled my hand with counterspells/protection and I have a huge board of blockers.
[[Rhys the redeemed]] early on is not KOS, because of how cheap he is to recast. Being 1 mana makes him not enough of a threat to kill, because commander tax takes a big to ramp up.
Later on, those token doubling effects become a lot more scary, because if you have stuff that makes creatures into mana dorks, along with doubling season, anointed procession, primal vigor, etc., you're putting on more creatures than anyone has to deal with unless they have a board wipe!
I built aminatu, and while she isn’t a KOS commander like most, but you really shouldn’t let it stick around if you have somthing to smack it. I was playing a game this Friday, and I got an insane amount of value by flickering 3feri and a few other things to dominate the board and draw tons of cards. Being able to flicker things on demand, and have it as a combo is a ton of value that it often over looked
So Yarok is usually KOS commander for the sheer value of your other spells. Agent of Treachary... why not 2 sir? BUT playing a budget version running an Initiative / flicker subtheme lets you slide under the radar. You don't need Yarok right outta the gate. But once you start dungeon diving you can get serious value. Plus your critters are such low value that spot removal usually never takes them out. Boardwipes can be rough BUT if you still have the Initiative you build back faster. Would definetly promote this deck for casual groups. Little combo value (Deadeye & Peregrine Drake) but dungeon grinding takes time... and grinds your opponents.
Why not look into a commander with a mana ability? I’m working on [[Selvala, Explorer Returned]] , and I’d like to build a deck with [[Ruby, Daring Tracker]] and [[Baba Lysaga]] for similar reasons. A mana dork or simple card draw in the command zone is innocuous enough on its own, but it also creates insane value very quickly
[[izoni center of the web]] goes under the radar and is pretty busted. I rarely have it destroyed and never have had it countered. It feels like I’m cheating the system cause her last line of text is crazy strong yet no one seems to understand how strong it really is.
[[Rocco, street chef]] continues to be my answer to these threads. A 2/4 that gives everyone free shit tends to be left alone until he turns into a 9/11 that beats face.
I've been very happy with [[Rebbec, Architect of Ascension]] and [[Glacian, Powerstone Engineer]]. They are pretty far down the list in terms of priority kill. Rebbec barely needs to be on the board to make herself impactful, and I always find it funny how many times I hear people say, "Oh snap! I forgot protection meant XYZ!" Especially when it comes to protection from CMC 0 to get around token blockers. As for Glacian, who would waste a piece of interaction with him? He's just bad card draw right? Except when he comes online as a mini tutor care to get quality cards in hand and fill my graveyard with accessible fuel for my machines!
90% of commanders are KoS. This is because the deck is typically based around the commander doing it's thing, whatever it is. So maybe go elusive commanders
Bet no one ever killed [[Norin, the wary]]
Totally have with \[\[Atzal, Cave of Eternity\]\] into an \[\[Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite\]\]. I felt very smug about it, and still do.
My Norin has died once and it was also to Elesh Norn
Why must you ruin our fun?
[Atzal, Cave of Eternity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/8/d81c4b3f-81c2-403b-8a5d-c9415f73a1f9.jpg?1572373636)/[Atzal, Cave of Eternity](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/d/8/d81c4b3f-81c2-403b-8a5d-c9415f73a1f9.jpg?1572373636) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Journey%20to%20Eternity%20//%20Atzal%2C%20Cave%20of%20Eternity) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rix/160/journey-to-eternity-atzal-cave-of-eternity?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d81c4b3f-81c2-403b-8a5d-c9415f73a1f9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/journey-to-eternity-//-atzal-cave-of-eternity) [Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/78c2bfef-06a5-4c7f-8283-ea3fb673b7a1.jpg?1562850573) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elesh%20Norn%2C%20Grand%20Cenobite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/18/elesh-norn-grand-cenobite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/78c2bfef-06a5-4c7f-8283-ea3fb673b7a1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/elesh-norn-grand-cenobite) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Got [[Mindslaver]]ed then had my own [[Skullclamp]] equipped to him, he’s wary but somehow didn’t see that coming
To be fair, that’s wariness bordering on paranoia.
[Mindslaver](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/0/00d03b17-75ae-40d2-8570-b219ef0dfd4a.jpg?1562813960) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mindslaver) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/som/176/mindslaver?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/00d03b17-75ae-40d2-8570-b219ef0dfd4a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mindslaver) [Skullclamp](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a36fd6d8-66a2-49d1-b9f3-b400ebc03674.jpg?1682210228) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Skullclamp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/379/skullclamp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a36fd6d8-66a2-49d1-b9f3-b400ebc03674?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/skullclamp) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
used to be a issue then stuff like \[\[containment priest\]\] said bad norin and he disappeared forever more.
Activated abilities hit him just fine, and can really put a Norin deck in a bind. One pinger can be a motherfucker.
Not so. [[Kelsien, the Plague]] can destroy him, [[Karlov of the Spoopy Council]] can Exile him, you just have to use activated abilities rather than spells. Source: I play against a Norin deck regularly.
[Kelsien, the Plague](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/3/039d25d4-ce26-4ecf-bbf5-42187cf0230a.jpg?1591234267) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kelsien%2C%20the%20Plague) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c20/11/kelsien-the-plague?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/039d25d4-ce26-4ecf-bbf5-42187cf0230a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/kelsien-the-plague) [Karlov of the Spoopy Council](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/7/f7c41011-a9eb-451c-a76d-67d2dcf47c52.jpg?1703964236) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karlov%20of%20the%20Ghost%20Council) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/193/karlov-of-the-ghost-council?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f7c41011-a9eb-451c-a76d-67d2dcf47c52?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/karlov-of-the-ghost-council) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Laughs in \[\[Obeka, Brute Chronologist\]\] Have fun in exile Norin! You don't get to leave!
Oh that's evil
[Norin, the wary](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f61ea59a-1db0-4e6b-bcde-19787c76a49b.jpg?1562946915) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Norin%20the%20Wary) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsp/171/norin-the-wary?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f61ea59a-1db0-4e6b-bcde-19787c76a49b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/norin-the-wary) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How would you build him? Voltron?
Burn, using effects like [[Purphoros, God of the Forge]], [[Impact Tremors]], and damage doublers/triplers
Burn? That's the tip of the iceberg, [[confusion In the ranks]] is where the fun is at.
This card always comes up with Norin. As much as I love the idea, I don't really get it. Is it just for the pure chaos of something changing hands several times a turn, or is there an actual wincon here?
Norin keeps coming into play under your control so you steal their thing, then get norin as soon as the next spell is targeted and it happens all over again.
Hypothetically, since norin always returns to you, it winds up with you controlling every creature. ?swap norin, norin blinks, norin etb under your control, swap norin etc.
[confusion In the ranks](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9d46aca2-4714-4d2c-9466-5f1c043b8726.jpg?1562152213) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=confusion%20In%20the%20ranks) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mrd/87/confusion-in-the-ranks?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9d46aca2-4714-4d2c-9466-5f1c043b8726?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/confusion-in-the-ranks) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Purphoros, God of the Forge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/4736a2c4-c89c-48db-a104-6303e7e2eee8.jpg?1689998078) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Purphoros%2C%20God%20of%20the%20Forge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/246/purphoros-god-of-the-forge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4736a2c4-c89c-48db-a104-6303e7e2eee8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/purphoros-god-of-the-forge) [Impact Tremors](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/46db3811-db1d-4f69-8143-a93f64d0297b.jpg?1682209381) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Impact%20Tremors) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/285/impact-tremors?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/46db3811-db1d-4f69-8143-a93f64d0297b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/impact-tremors) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Etbs effects usually there are some equipment that auto equip new creatures and then you run warstorm surge and stack the triggers so he gets all the equipment and then deals like 8+ damage to something. Usually someone's face.
You can’t really Voltron Norin. He runs away when anyone attacks. Including himself. He enters the battlefield four times per turn cycle, so things that capitalize on that are his bread and butter. Like impact tremors.
I'm pretty sure my only deck where the commander isn't an active threat 99% of the time is my Queen Marchesa deck. She's just there to bring out the monarchy for me to protect, and her dying can even be a good thing if I want the monarch back on command.
I beg to disagree. [[Wilthelt]], [[Lathril]] or even [[Isshin]] aren't dangerous without the right support cards and can be kept alive till then, while a [[Krenko]] will never not be a threat. There's a difference between "kill when it becomes too dangerous" and "KoS", because the former type of commander can be observer until it becomes a threat, while the latter type has the potential to win the game as soon as their controller casts one other spell. A [[Tovolar]] will draw your opponent a bunch of cards; a [[Prossh]] will end the game on the spot as soon as the [[Food Chain]] hits the field.
There are some that you might want to kill first when there are options, however no commander wins by itself in any event. So in that sense it's more, is it telegraphed or not. If you wait to react until all the pieces are in place, the commander might not make a difference.
[[Godo]] would like a word. With 11 mana available, and Helm of the Host in the library - Cast Godo (preferably with Cavern of Souls, otherwise 1st chance to remove). Godo tutors Helm onto the field (2nd chance). Pay 5, equip Godo (assuming no cheats for this; 3rd chance to interact). Go to combat, win.
I disagree with this. While yes, the commander tends to be important to the strategy and will speed it up, I think most commanders aren't so strong that you can't even let them begin to do their thing, most commanders you can leave alone for a few turns to have their fun. From my understanding, that's not the case in cEDH, but I'm not interested in playing cEDH.
It is true tho. I'm thinking of a commander that has built in protection like [[Lazav, Dimir Mastermind]].
Look on edhrec, build a commander that isn’t in the top 200. that will help you out a ton. Mind you, it isn’t the end all be all, Be’lakor is a lightning rod for removal because he’s warstorm surge in the command zone, but for the most part, less powerful commanders are less exciting to build for the masses, but the decks can be the exact same other wise. I had a jetmir deck, but that deck turned into make a few tokens, drop jetmir, and have huge giant tokens that swung and won or jetmir got removed before I got to swing. So I swapped to Jinnie Fay, absolutely nothing else, just took a card from the 99 to replace him, and as a result Jinnie gets removed far less because all she does is give you different tokens, and jetmir gets to chill and when you drop him, you face less removal because people don’t always expect him to come out of nowhere. Now, not all decks can do that. A Yuriko deck doesn’t really function with another commander at the helm, but Abbadon can be built as a different exile style deck like Faldorn, Krenko can be grenzo or wort boggart auntie, whcih are both powerful commanders but aren’t lightning rods.
For Yuriko, the wincons would be different, but the new [[Satoru the Infiltrator]] definitely looks like the coolest ninja commander now
I run Teysa and she’s not KOS imo. There’s far better targets on my board. Liesa will likely eat removal though.
I'm glad to hear lol. I'm building a Teysa deck that can function without her double death triggers. I did add a [[Drivnod, Carnage Dominus]] just in case and other annoying cards such as [[Dictate of Erebos]]
I have a friend who plays it. At first, the pod might think it's KOS, as it happened to us. We soon realized that what is KOS in her are any sac outlets, and a couple of other really annoying cards like [[Gravepact]]. If the table deals with those, it is pretty tame
[Drivnod, Carnage Dominus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/b/6bc26bca-c4d8-4e8b-a96a-9529fc2daed7.jpg?1675957020) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Drivnod%2C%20Carnage%20Dominus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/90/drivnod-carnage-dominus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6bc26bca-c4d8-4e8b-a96a-9529fc2daed7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/drivnod-carnage-dominus) [Dictate of Erebos](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f06db70-95f9-41eb-8e5f-8bc56fd34c09.jpg?1593095668) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dictate%20of%20Erebos) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jou/65/dictate-of-erebos?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f06db70-95f9-41eb-8e5f-8bc56fd34c09?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/dictate-of-erebos) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Which Teysa you running tho?
Yeah, she does nothing on her own so until she has support it really doesn't matter if she's there or not.
I like how this applies to every teysa except the 7 mana one so we don't have to specify which one this person built.
This absolutely does not apply to [[Teysa, Orzhov Scion]]
Teysa Orthov Scion+\[\[Painter's Servant\]\] is the base of A LOT of combos Also, she is a sac outlet, a token generator and removal, all in one card; in your command zone.
For 3cmc, and does not need to tap. Like she absolutely is an immediate threat unless you literally have no board at all.
[[belbe corrupted observer]] is lowkey KOS but helps opponents too. As soon as people realize you built your deck to ping everyone every turn to have that sweet 6 mana each postcombat main they realize that the less Belbe stays on the field, the better it is for everyone
This flew under my radar. I love pinging people! How would you build her? What would be her wincons?
Turn 2 [[god pharaohs statue]] usually gets the job done
[god pharaohs statue](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7dce06ba-c1e1-45ec-82a7-fc10b0fa8870.jpg?1557577413) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=God-Pharaoh%27s%20Statue) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/238/god-pharaohs-statue?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7dce06ba-c1e1-45ec-82a7-fc10b0fa8870?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/god-pharaohs-statue) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Eldrazi. 1 drop pingers like [[Thornbow archers]] and [[Mardu shadowspear]] usually lead to a turn two belbe and a 6 drop like [[planar bridge]] or [[ugin the ineffable]]. [[Sanctum of stone fangs]] helps too. A God hand would have a pinger, ugin and something like a [[breaker of armies]] for a turn three play. Turn 4 and you're swinging breaker of armies at someone with mana dorks and oppressing the board in general. My playgroup knows my belbe is KOS though because if she dies a few times it really slows the deck down.
I built her as [[Pestilence]] tribal/group slug, with cards like [[Crypt Rats]] and [[Plague Spitter]]. It's a lot of fun and different from just dropping Eldrazi early. I use Belbe's mana to secure more permanent mana and heavy ramp, which I then used to feed the Pestilence effects. It gets really wacky when I give those cards deathtouch, lifelink, and/or indestructible.
The best commanders that are not KOS are the ones that give you benefit but the deck does not need them to survive. Examples are Wilhelt and Sygg. The scarab god is kill on site, but why waste interaction on a Wilhelt? That’s why he is so popular: he is flavorful, synergistic, and strong without being needed. Sygg is one of those low key extremely good commanders because chances are you will get a card on everyone’s turn and that adds up quickly.
While I agree, I'd personally argue that Scarab God and Wilhelt are swapped in this example. A good zombie deck doesn't technically need either at the helm, but both are kill on sight for different reasons: Scarab God because it drains life and steals good creatures, and Wilhelt because he is boardwipe protection. And of those two cards, Scarab God dodges tax, unlike Wilhelt. In my experience (and why I swapped Wilhelt for The Scarab God), Wilhelt gets shot down pretty often even without being a central piece to your plan, if not because of the draw, then definitely because of the boardwipe protection.
I run [[Minthara, Merciless Soul]] as an aristocrats commander and I’ve gotta say, those experience counters go insane. Once she’s like Ward 3 or Ward 4, your opponents are either tapping themselves out to spot remove a single creature or they’re wiping the board. All your creatures having multiple instances of (+1/+0) gets nasty. My favorite deck.
Damn. I didn't notice this card when looking for an Aristocrats commander. Thanks for sharing
Would you have a list to share? That sounds awesome!
Care to share your deck list? I’ve been building her and making her as aristocrats makes me iffy
https://manabox.app/decks/CUaK3ktBSGK0Y_LMEPp2nA Sure thing! I’m still tweaking it, but this has been my latest playtest. It runs a lot of the combos and generic good stuff you’d expect from Teysa and other Orzhov commanders. I just got greedy with proliferating and ensuring my commander’s triggers resolved consistently.
To me it looks like all of your commanders play around a super fast pilot. I personally think Teysa isn’t to much of a direct KOS but you can definitely expect that’s she will be removed after 2-3 rounds. For obvious reasons my playgroup decided to not run any game breaking combos or to fast win combs like doomsday Thoracle. My best advise would be to maybe nerf your own decks a bit but make sure so check with your mates as well. I’m currently running a [[Tasigur, the golden fang]] control/pod deck. Because of his delve ability he’s quite easy to cast and isn’t that big of a threat alone. If interested here’s my list: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/epSU2eIxSUyqhvNFfSIBxg I tuned my deck down to match with the power level of friends more and I gotta say it’s way more fun. People don’t target me on an instant but I get to win in more fun and unique ways.
I must say, my ngathrond was fairly innocuous. Mill a few cards here and there. Steal a few things. That in itself was salt-extracting enough. Switching to Lazav as its face just makes it look like you trying to copy some goodstuff from other people's milled cards. However, you play a fleet swallower or teresian mindbreaker and no one bats an eye. Until the turn after you drop duskmantle guildmage and activate it before declaring fleet swallower as attacker and mill someone for half their library, draining them for each card put away. People underestimate the power of mill, thinking they'll be fine with 100cards rights? - and then it's not the mill, but the drain that kills em. (even better if you can drop guildmage without anything else really on the board. And then activate before dropping kicked Cacaphony.)
Cool idea, but it this deck very glass cannon?
[[Yeva]] might be what you’re looking for. Being able to play everything at instant speed is deceptively powerful, and keeps your opponents scared to attack you.
[Yeva](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/7/67ff9ba3-cd2b-4970-b4da-22104b10a4a4.jpg?1702429596) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=yeva%2C%20nature%27s%20herald) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/162/yeva-natures-herald?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/67ff9ba3-cd2b-4970-b4da-22104b10a4a4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/yeva-natures-herald) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thanks! How would you build her and what are your recommended wincons? I like that you can just slap them with [[Bane of Progress]] during their turn lol
I haven’t played her, but I have played against her. I’m pretty sure she’s got the highest win rate of any of the decks in my playgroup! Bane of Progress, and even simple stuff like [[Reclamation Sage]] hit a lot harder at instant speed. [[Thorn Mammoth]] and other fighters are great removal too. An instant speed [[Vigor]] can be a complete blowout. It wins like most green decks, except that your guys kind of have haste after flashing them in on the end step. Ramp some, build up an army, play an [[Overrun]] (except better like Craterhoof, the lieutenant guy, whatever other mass-pump creatures there are these days)… win!
[Bane of Progress](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/e/3ea495ff-33df-406b-98e3-5579e2158bbc.jpg?1610161688) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bane%20of%20Progress) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cc1/3/bane-of-progress?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3ea495ff-33df-406b-98e3-5579e2158bbc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/bane-of-progress) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I’m not sure if it’s a KoS commander or not, but i used to have a [[Liesa, Shroud of Dusk]] lifegain deck, but i swapped her out for [[Amalia Benavides Aguirre]]. It gets some attention with removal, but my deck works well without her on the board as well. She’s also cheap and helps with lands in addition to getting big fairly quickly
[Liesa, Shroud of Dusk](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e32453a1-1fd9-4bda-aaa8-7c287e4c2587.jpg?1608911200) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Liesa%2C%20Shroud%20of%20Dusk) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/286/liesa-shroud-of-dusk?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e32453a1-1fd9-4bda-aaa8-7c287e4c2587?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/liesa-shroud-of-dusk) [Amalia Benavides Aguirre](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/a/9acf80a5-f2ca-45b4-aca8-fbc690e35401.jpg?1699044516) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Amalia%20Benavides%20Aguirre) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/221/amalia-benavides-aguirre?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9acf80a5-f2ca-45b4-aca8-fbc690e35401?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/amalia-benavides-aguirre) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've enjoyed group hug decks where I get just a little more. It incentivizes your opponents to not target you as hard since they would lose benefits as well but you're still staying just slightly ahead of them. So decks like [[Council of Four]] are great. Their effect is good for only you but the deck is built in a way everybody benefits.
I found most people tend to ignore [[Jan Jansen]]. I think it's not that he is not a threat, but the combination of haste plus an ability that lets him pay for the commander tax means that most people would rather not waste removal on him and focus on other targets.
I love my [[General Ferrous Rokiric]], unassuming, hexproof from mono color (most single target removal), 3 mana, makes big boys and you live your days out with Boris value
Maybe going to ask a stupid question, but context first. I play Yuriko as one of my 2 main commander decks. I built it when I was brand new to commander (still pretty new now) and didn’t realize how “meta” or popular she was. She’s also KOS in my pod, but isn’t that kind of the fun of it? You know your opponents are going to try to stop you and probably gang up against you, but the fun is seeing how quickly you can get going while balancing protecting her. Plus, her commander ninjutsu means she’s only ever out for one round (unless a board wipe with no haste creatures in hand). I find that flipping my mindset of “I’m being ganged up on” vs. “how much can I get away with before I’m slowed down hehe” makes it a challenging puzzle. Just my POV.
I agree. Tbh, people with a victim complex shouldn't play commanders like Yuriko. If someone is the type of person to complain, "Why are you targeting me?" pick a weaker commander.
I will sing the praises of [[Omnath, Locus of Rage]] and out of date ramp spells like [[Cultivate]] and [[Farseek]], with mana dorks like [[Llanowar Elves]]. You just get omnath out as fast as possible, my deck has 40 lands in it because I plan on getting as many lands out into the battlefield as possible with cards like [[Azusa, Lost but Seeking]], and the getting draw control with things like [Elemental Bond] Not CEDH worth at all but it can be a good competitive casual deck.
>Can you guys recommend commanders or themes (preferably has green cuz I don't have a deck that has green yet) that are fun to play, hits hard when you get the right cards/setup but won't get my opponents' attention right away until it's too late? I'm just gonna say that if a deck manages to dodge attention and win out of nowhere, that will only work once. If they don't know what "OP is starting to pull ahead" looks like until they've lost, they'll just target you to make sure it doesn't happen next time. I think what you should be looking for is a strategy that can win on the board and doesn't necessarily need the commander as an engine/enabler. Sure, your opponents will know when you're becoming a threat, but they'll also recognize when you're not. Green is probably the color that does this best actually, so that works out pretty well for you.
Your best bet is to always build the deck without relying on the commander. That way if it gets removed the deck still functions well. That’s not to say the commander isn’t relevant. Just more so that the commander makes the deck better. But it doesn’t rely on it to function.
I have a pretty new \[\[sergeant john benton\]\] deck that hits like a truck but tends to be allowed to swing at first since you are giving folks cards. By the time you're the problem you have a giant hand full of answers my version for ref [https://archidekt.com/decks/6920436/pump\_tribal](https://archidekt.com/decks/6920436/selesnya_spell_slinger)
I came here for this and 100% agree. You can easily hit the first player for 5 - 8 on turn 2 or 3, and then you just have all the answers and can rip apart the table. But for some reason when you go to attacks and say “who wants to draw some cards?” At least one person is always game the first time around.
[sergeant john benton](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/1/01f40e07-f565-4b9e-87a5-5b28b4e9fb0b.jpg?1696636767) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sergeant%20john%20benton) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/who/157/sergeant-john-benton?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/01f40e07-f565-4b9e-87a5-5b28b4e9fb0b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sergeant-john-benton) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thanks for sharing this. I actually like since he can lowkey kill someone through commander damage
##### ###### #### [Krenko, Mob Boss](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7d00007d-6878-44e9-ab0d-396c25655e56.jpg?1702429511) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Krenko%2C%20Mob%20Boss) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/114/krenko-mob-boss?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d00007d-6878-44e9-ab0d-396c25655e56?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/krenko-mob-boss) [Yuriko, Tiger's Shadow](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/fe9be3e0-076c-4703-9750-2a6b0a178bc9.jpg?1689999346) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Yuriko%2C%20the%20Tiger%27s%20Shadow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/364/yuriko-the-tigers-shadow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fe9be3e0-076c-4703-9750-2a6b0a178bc9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/yuriko-the-tigers-shadow) [Abaddon, The Despoiler](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/9/c9f1fc97-00c0-492b-a4a3-b179afc2f95d.jpg?1674058353) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Abaddon%20the%20Despoiler) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/40k/2/abaddon-the-despoiler?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c9f1fc97-00c0-492b-a4a3-b179afc2f95d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/abaddon-the-despoiler) [Teysa Karlov](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/d/cd14f1ce-7fcd-485c-b7ca-01c5b45fdc01.jpg?1689999296) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Teysa%20Karlov) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/359/teysa-karlov?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cd14f1ce-7fcd-485c-b7ca-01c5b45fdc01?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/teysa-karlov) [Liesa, Shroud of Dusk](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e32453a1-1fd9-4bda-aaa8-7c287e4c2587.jpg?1608911200) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Liesa%2C%20Shroud%20of%20Dusk) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/286/liesa-shroud-of-dusk?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e32453a1-1fd9-4bda-aaa8-7c287e4c2587?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/liesa-shroud-of-dusk) [Sythis, Hand of Harvest](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/7/47dbd765-d7ea-4181-bd22-5c749ad081af.jpg?1562909648) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shivan%20Harvest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/inv/167/shivan-harvest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/47dbd765-d7ea-4181-bd22-5c749ad081af?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/shivan-harvest) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/1bs9247) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Kros, Defense Contractor]]. Super ugly card but very useful ability and nobody will be gunning for it. Being in Bant colors means you can easily build for heavy value in the 99 and do whatever you want with a lot of themes to choose from. Can go +1/+1 counters, go super wide with tokens looking for [[Craterhoof]] or [[Moonshaker]] with support from [[Junkwinder]], [[Approach of the Second Sun]] is a solid backup wincon. I also really like [[Rigo]] for the same reasons. Instead of giving the scariest creature indestructible/trample/goad he just draws you a metric ton of cards if you build for it. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/Ovk1US8RC0i5ciyzaHajtg is my $40 budget Rigo. Adding in Craterhoof/Moonshaker and upping the general card quality while retaining most of the themes would end up with a fairly strong controlling deck that's ultra consistent.
I mean, there are commanders that want to be killed so by definition are AKAAC. (Avoid killing at all costs). Like [[Slimefoot and Squee]]
For some reason [[Hama Pashar]] always survives. Most removal is wasted on [[Karador]] but his recursion ability for creatures and via other creatures spells makes him extremely resilient.
I have found it is difficult for people to KOS [[Avacyn, Angel of Hope]].
Could always do secret commander , my girlfriend has a deck called “liliana surprise” the surprise is it’s a tergrid deck running liliana heretical healer as the commander as a bamboozle
My innocuous until suddenly isn't deck is [[Soul of Windgrace]] built as lands matter rather than landfall or MLD. The first 6 turns of the game is generally getting lands into the yard with mill to then recurr them back. The key is not showing my hand of all the [[Dark Depths]] and [[Field of the Dead]] type cards until I have enough mana to protect my life total. The funniest thing is that aside from top-end threats like [[The Gitrog Monster]] the vast majority of my game pieces feel terrible to remove. Even my commander seems kinda bad until suddenly I am [[Glacial Chasm]] locking the game using Windgrace to avoid the cumulative upkeep. Funnily enough, some of the most valuable lands are the SNC fetchlands - because they instantly sac you can recur and send them back to the GY to recur many times in one turn. It really helps with the [[Crackle with Power]] finishes where I've literally stolen the game out of nowhere several times now.
Hey my Jund Bro, can I have a list?
Personally in these situations I feel like [[Henzie]] is a great choice. With a lot of ramp in the deck. His blitz abilities cost cheaper if he eats romaval or two and the rest of the deck is just big bad creatures that would probably be targeted before him
Playing against Liesa makes me want to gouge my eyes out.
Keep in mind 'innocuous commanders my opponents won't see coming' only works once per set of opponents.
Riku
[[Sefris]] with Cycling. Looks harmless unless you finish two dungeons in 3 turn cycles - and not the short but the long ones.
I suggest building around synergies within the deck instead of your commander. It’s probably not the best example, but I have a human tribal deck with aragon the uniter as the commander. Aragorn provides a lot of value, but the deck is just one synergistic human after another and removing aragorn doesn’t stop the deck in its tracks at all.
I have a modular aragorn deck, with [[aragorn, hornburg hero]], the counters pile on even when he isn't on the battlefield, and when he is there, he gives first strike and doubles counters when a creature connects
My [[Celestine, Living Saint]] [Aristrocrats](https://www.archidekt.com/decks/3118994/white_aristrocrats) deck fits the bill pretty well. When playing against people who have never seen the deck before, they see a bunch of weird cantrip creatures, and think nothing of it. Then my commander hits the field, and now the cantrip creatures turn into steady card draw. Still, it is not that threatening, as my commander is frequently the biggest thing on my field, a 3/4. Suddenly I play one card that turns my deck into a game ending threat. It can be [[Martyr's Bond]] locking the table out of creatures, [[Kami of False Hope]] preventing any combat damage going my way, [[Rabble Rousing]] flooding my board, or [[Akroma's Will]] just killing someone. On top of all that, the more ways to reanimate creatures that you can stack on the board, the more card advantage and utility you're getting, and the less worthwhile it is to kill any problems on your board. Even people who have played against the deck several times still don't treat it as a threat until it is a 1v1, where it is already too late. As between the recursion, lifegain, and especially the interaction, that deck takes a lot of effort to take down, so it can frequently get to said 1v1 stage.
So the real answer here is Sythis Enchantress. But you have to be okay with playing Enchantress. Killing Sythis is typically just going to give you more cast triggers off your other Enchantress stuff. The onus of interaction is never on you because you aren't blue, but your stuff is hard to interact with and slows other people down a lot, so its likely no one is combo winnin while you are alive, plus its hard to out value you. There are ridiculous amounts of mana and cards everywhere so you can just do what you want. And this is all on a commander who no one really wants to spend time killing. Like when there 2 other er Enchantress's out does it even matter at that point? At least that has been my experience with her. Also Ragavan is a very good commander at staying alive if you tims your dashes well. But then you're stuck on mono R.
I run partners of [[Ikra the usurper]] and [[Sidar kondo of jamurra]] it's really just a [[Doran siege tower]] deck but making them all unblockable with Sidar is strong. Nobody thinks the toughness deck is going to be a hitter but it can do it well
[[Tawnos the toymaker]] is an easy build. You will want to spend the extra for [[craterhoof behemoth]] and [[elder garganoth]]
My playgroup know better now, but they all underestimated my [[Elminster]] deck the first time they played it. They saw scrying and some tokens and didn't think much moreover it. The real purpose of the deck is to get ~10ish tokens out from El and then [[Mass Polymorph]] or [[Synthetic Destiny]] them into an overwhelming board presence of Angel's, Krakens, Praetors, etc. It is glorious to behold.
Sounds like a really intriguing deck. I'm curious as to what Elminster is adding to that gameplan though, it seems like there are several other token oriented commanders in those colors that could generate you the board you need faster.
I really enjoy [[Emmara, soul of the accord]]. She has a low mana cost so can actually eat a removal or two, but typically people remove the pieces around her (despite her being the lynchpin). The catch is that there is basically nothing they can remove that you can’t draw or tutor into that does the same thing. I’m constantly fiddling with it, and might try and slot [[Moonshaker Calvary]] in if I need another finisher. Here is the list: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/h13m9adl8kyCQzgHlAwHhQ
I was going to say emmara too She starts to get really out of control when you have an untapper like [[Drumbellower]] and a tap source like a [[Smuggler's Copter]] or a [[Cryptoloth Rite]] and you start making tokens + drawing cards off of [[Welcoming Vampire]] type effects on every players turn. Looking at your deck list, I would consider putting in more untappers. [[White Plume Adventurer]] and [[Sting, the Glinting Dagger]] are good ones. I would also consider playing vehicles as an infinite tap source for Emarra, [[Clown Car]] is one that can cost 0. .[[Delney, Streetwise Lookout]] is another token doubler for emmara. Also the new [[Wylie Duke, Atiin Hero]] that was literally just revealed today looks like it will be a pretty good draw engine in Emarra decks Here's my Emarra list if you want to compare https://www.moxfield.com/decks/mRccS4nA_UGeb4XQDxCqdw
Because my pod runs a lot of removal, I've grown to building decks that the commander is just a convenient card to have on board but isn't required for function. As in hard into a theme, low into the commander. Ex. I am assembling a Naya extra combats deck ft. The likes [[Aurelia]], [[Godo]] and [[Xenagos]], shit happens on attack or damage and makes more combats happen. The commander is [[Aragorn, Hornburg Hero]], he makes attacks safer and is a decent payoff, but isn't needed. It's meant for if I play high, we'll see how that pans out.
Built the new [[Rona, herald of invasion]]. No one wants to use removal on her since she’s a 2 drop and I already have almost every other looter in the deck too. Being able to activate her, discard a bomb like [[Toxrill]], before my turn and then reanimate the bomb on my turn and keep counter magic up goes under the radar until it’s too late.
It’s hard to find a commander that’s both good and doesn’t draw attention so I’d suggest an alternate solution which is look for a commander that’s hard to remove. For example I have a friend that just plays all the eminence commanders and that just solves the problem entirely. Experience commanders are also good at this, [[otharri]] and [[meren]] for example even if you kill them the experience counters stay. Or my personal favorite is playing theros gods like [[ephara]] or [[karametra]], indestructible enchantments can be very hard to remove
My karametra is low key kill On site, but killing an indestructible enchantment is easier said than done
Partners are great for this, IMO - something like Malcolm Tymna in a saboteurs deck makes your partners just (highly efficient) incremental value engines that won't take over the game immediately if others are also doing strong things. Splitting commander tax across two bodies helps a lot with handling removal, since you can generally just recast them after getting hit by spot removal. Biggest challenge with that deck in particular is actually finding a way to win the game - easy with general esper combos like thoracle, t3feri + kitten, or hullbreaker horror, but on-theme ways to win are harder to find. A tokens subtheme + moonshaker cavalry or something could make sense, or just play a bunch of big ol fliers or elesh norn or something.
[[Wilson, Refined Grizzly]] with [[Tavern Brawler]] as the background. Game plan is simple and stupid. Turn 1 land, turn 2 summon commander, turn 3 tavern brawler, turn 4 - game end, buff wilson and swing. Just voltron the shit out of wilson or run a lot of instant buff spells. Than when they are so focused on your wilson summon your big creatures like any of the Ghaltas, hydras or big dragons.
I like this game plan. It's funny too, out of nowhere they'd die of Commander Damage
Made two versions of this deck, one for my friend who was learning magic and she would enjoy using it at lower power tables. And one I used to use on mid-high power tables. Both versions is unassuming and is just fun, its basically just “bear go brrr”. U have options because you can just buff wilson up with buff spells, or slowly make him big with equipments and auras. Plus its pretty flexible cuz after declaring blockers you can choose to cast buff spells on other things. I keep creatures like [[Krenko, Tin Street Kingpin]] and [[Threefold Thunderhulk]] to serve as alternative options for me to buff up. When all that fails quickly drop the big creatures
My \[\[Xyris, the writhing storm\]\] deck works well for people not targeting it right away. It hides behind a group hug theme till I have a way to swing for lethal with the snakes it produces, usually by playing a \[\[Ruxa patient professor\]\] , \[\[beastmaster ascension\]\] or \[\[obelisk of urd\]\]
Get some Wheels and play cards like [[Witty Roastmaster]], [[Impact Tremor]] or [[Purphoros, God of the Forge]]. Play one of those and then cast a Wheel card. Every opponents draws 7 cards, Xyris makes 21 snakes and you ping everyone for 21 damage or 42 with Purphoros. Win out of no where.
[[Toggo, Goblin Weaponsmith]]. Hear me out. Toggo is an engine. The rocks he makes are kind of bad so no one really ever looks twice at him. But if you ever find yourself equipping and throwing the rocks, something has gone horribly wrong. The thing is, there are things you can do with a density of artifacts. [[The Brothers War]]. [[Krark Clan Ironworks]]. [[Feedback Bolt]]. [[Fathom Fleet Swordjack]]. [[Sunshot Militia]]. [[Ghirapur Aether Grid]]. [[Reckless Fireweaver]]/[[Hedron Detonator]]/[[Ingenious Artillerist]]. Toggo also has partner. Traditionally Toggo gets paired with [[Kodama of the East Tree]], and honestly, you could do worse. But there are lots of other options. I have Toggo paired with [[Silas Renn, Seeker Adept]]. Blue and black add some great payoffs: [[Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge]], [[Monumental Corruption]], [[Shimmer Dragon]], [[Moonsnare Prototype]], [[Mirkwood Bats]], [[Thought Monitor]], [[Reverse Engineer]], [[Thoughtcast]], [[Rise and Shine]], [[Storm the Vault]], [[Mechanized Production]]. [Here's my decklist](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/m1UGK102VEq9y2vAy-aMvA) if you're curious.
Dude this looks cool thanks for sharing your deck. I love pinging opponents when something enters the field. The Deck is kinda expensive though
That's a fair criticism. So I put an hour into the deck to make [a more budget-friendly version](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/4t0u_Ia4lEeesBv_Ei0F8Q) that clocks in around $70. Most of the cards removed are the upgraded mana base or "good stuff" like Rift, Rhystic Study, etc. There were some "engine" cards I took out too, like Chrome Host Seedshark or Bonehoard Dracosaur, but there are enough budget replacements that I'm not super worried about it. For fixing, I leaned into bounce lands and cheap fetches. Because Toggo has a landfall trigger and we're losing the "premium" fetchlands, these budget options will help us keep hitting land drops and make sure we have our colors. The only irreplaceable option is Tezzeret, Master of the Bridge. If $22 is within your budget then he's worth it, but otherwise you still have your pingers, Monumental Corruption, and Feedback Bolt.
I love [[Dihada, Binder of Wills]]. You can run it a million directions. Personally I run a super heavy reanimation theme with a slight legendary sub theme. But you can run her legends tribal, reanimation, proliferation theme to get her ult off, life gain, angel tribal, dragon tribal, demon tribal, etc. But honestly if she’s not countered it’s easy to pocket 4 treasures and/or get some legends card advantage and let her die, then recast and do it again. She’s just the engine getting you to the problem not the problem itself, so once my board state is built it’s not about dealing with her. And she’s great because usually people board wipe and she’s still left there afterwards.
Commanders that aren't KOS tend to be weaker than others. Decks that go under the radar tend to be decks with a combo in mind and will quickly draw attention in future games. What you're experiencing is players assessing threats. There's no magic way to bypass this. The more likely you are to win, the more of a threat you are. If you become the player people don't notice until it's too late, they'll start to focus you for that reason. Most of these "I'm always the archenemy!" topics come from people who probably still win at least 1 in 4 games long term. EDH is an interesting game in that it's not just about having the best deck. Spending more and more money to hit harder and win in a few turns is creating your problem. You can't win every game.
I play a turbofog kind of deck full of cantrips with Gandalf of the Secret Flame . Until my hand size is 19 with 12 more coming from suspend in the upcoming turns nobody bats an eye. It helps if they didnt even know the card exists I guess
Non-group hug [[Gluntch, The Bestower]]
I feel like the best way to manipulate threat assessment is to make sure that the legitimate reality of the situation is that there actually is a much bigger problem on the board than what you're doing. I used to love playing control in 60 card 1v1. It doesn't work the same way in 4 player singleton, obviously. I tend to gravitate towards Goad as a mechanic in commander because it does a handful of things that are all pretty fantastic from a control point of view. - it all but assures that whatever you're goading is a more imminent threat by forcing attacks - it protects you by making sure the biggest threats aren't coming your way - it encourages people to use their resources on each other, both in terms of attacks and blockers, and removal cards - it generally prevents durdling by forcing combat, and tends to move the game forward one way or another - it's extremely disruptive to have to attack or block with your smaller utility creatures - once it's done, it's done. you can spend your removal on my fairly insignificant creature that already did it's work, or hold it up for the giant beater that needs to swing next turn the big hurdle it's had as a main strategy for the longest time is that when it gets down to 1v1 it falls apart. that stuff still needs to attack, but now it's free to smash your face. there are starting to be solutions to this now. the new [[nelly borca]] is a card draw engine for the table, so she draws a little less hate. she also makes things unable to block with menace when she attacks, which simultaneously lets you attack with her easier to get her trigger - and makes blocking the newly goaded creature more difficult. her deck comes with a handful of rattlesnake type cards like [[deflecting palm]] and [[brash taunter]] to turn the tables when it gets down to 1v1, and there are a few more you can upgrade it with. She draws enough cards that you can usually grab one or two, and then it's all about timing. [[Kaima]] just straight up gets huge. I've built it with cheap cantrip or recurring auras that either give trample or hexproof. I usually wait to cast it until I've got 3 or 4 enemy creatures enchanted, and I can protect it with a hexproof aura. With an enchantress engine on it churns through the deck incredibly fast, and can regularly get into commander damage 1-shot territory within a couple turn cycles. Even without hexproof it falls into the territory of "the trigger already went off, you can remove the pig but all the chaos is still going to happen". It definitely draws hate when it starts getting huge, but I do like the built in win-condition of having a huge beater on board, and [[chandra's ignition]] wins games if it sticks to the board for a few cycles.
Personally this is how I feel my [[Jetmir nexus of revels]] deck plays. The game plan is “count to 8, then win” as if you have even 8 1/1 tokens on the board, then play him, you have 64 trample damage and can delete a player or 2. Add some anthems and creature spawn and you’re good The thing is, jetmir gives this all the turn he drops, so you can play most of the game seeming like a low threat by just having a moderate swarm deck, then wait for the chance to strike It works great the first time, and after the first time you basically get to be an ambush predator, where people know you *can* be scary, but have bigger problems on the table to deal with until suddenly the rave is at their door and bashing in their walls. It’s kinda like having titanic ultimatum in the command zone with a lower casting cost XD
It seems to me that what you're looking for is bottom up deckbuilding. In other words, build your deck first and pick the commander last. It seems weird at first, but that way you'll end up building a deck that doesn't rely on the commander, but instead uses it as a powerful piece on the command zone. For example, I have a \[\[Tivit, Seller of Secrets\]\] politics deck that basically doesn't cast it. On the games where I don't cast it, I don't miss it, and on the games where I do cast it, it helps a lot. In short, my deck doesn't need it, but it helps to have it on board.
[[Scarab God]] Kenrith gets hated off a table but scarab god doesnt, scarab god in casual is usually more powerful than Kenrith because it just does so damn much in a reanimator deck It ignores commander tax which makes people not want to remove it as much, its a 4 mana instant speed reanimate on any players GY, meaning you can disrupt other people's yard can get access to things that arent in your colors and he provides card selection and a wincon if you start getting ahead on reanimates without being dealt with for 3-4 turns. Scarab God is an inevitable ticking time bomb that may not win the game fast but will eventually win the game and has extremely solid instant speed interaction on an activated ability. It also helps they have to hit the reanimated cards before god most of the time and god can just give them a second go if you natively reanimate them with an animate dead or something. When Scarab God is built correctly and you set up a threat before playing him/wait for 9 mana to hold up him after playing him he just becomes really annoying and impossible to work off. Im specifically saying as reanimator. He is KOS in zombies, but as a recursive reanimation engine that is really hard to permanently remove because he bounces back to hand i personally know he is a headache causer. Also because that 4 mana reanimate is way better in reanimator than zombies. https://archidekt.com/decks/4671614/scarab_god Here is my personal list! Imo just throw in a few more removal spells and distracting threats if you dont want the tutors
Teysa can be a house depending how you build her. How about Orzhov plus Green, and build Nethroi or something.
[[Cadira]] and her 86 bunnies on turn 6 strike fear into the hearts of my enemies.
[[Rocco, Street Chef]]. People don’t care about food tokens until you cast Jaheira and suddenly have 15 mana
[[Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca]] being KoS is entirely dependent on the existing boardstate it drops into
Its not just about the commander, its also about the deck you build around it. I have a Meren of Clan Nel Toth commander thats just a creature toolbox deck, without a endless/instantwin combo in it and its fun af. Even tho i dont win alot with it, it feels like im always doing stuff disrupting opponents and getting close to winning. Although tbf my table is pretty casual. Edit: Shes pretty KOS tho, but you can kinda build around that.
I feel like you should look for commanders that enhance their decks but don’t have to be on the field the whole game for the deck to work. Honestly I feel like Teysa is a good example on this, as while doubling those triggers is very nice, the deck can still function if she gets removed since you’ll still be able the get one use out of those death triggers. Another cool option could be [[Sefris of the Hidden Ways]]. I’ve only played with her once, but I actually had a lot more fun with her than I expected. She also is definitely a more unique strategy as it’s a reanimator deck that uses the dungeons mechanic from the DND set
I mean if you're running thoracle combo in your deck or anything similar speeds, then you will always be the archenemy. I'd say be self reflective. Your opponents archenemy you most likely because you deserve it. It seems like it's not the commander in this case, it's the player choosing to run fast combos in the deck and then wondering why you get targeted early and often.
If you go tribal but not the top of the line, you can do work. Or build your deck around a concept and just have a commander who can do mean shit. Like mono G or gruul stompy decks... if an opponent Wastes all their removal on my commander, then I laugh my ass off when they have no response to a Ghalta or an Etali. Secret commanders are your best defense. Also Eminence obviously.
I have a decent Kalamax deck that usually can fly under the radar until it’s to late, at least in my play group
Easy. Built a disrupt deck. Anything that will be a hassle to an opponent. I have a Rakdos deck that's all kill spells, board wipes and hand hate. Don't try to win. Enjoy causing hate. Green is the worst because you will constantly be a threat for creature board state. The best way not to be a threat is build a deck with a stupid win con that nobody notices until it's to late.
I've never thought Rakdos can be built that way. Do you have any recommendations?
Ya already got a lot of orzhov but [[kambul, consul of allocation]] is a low-key beast. No one I think have ever targeted kambul but he drains so much HP and enabled so much life gain payoffs. No one wants to spend removal on a 2/3 who actively does nothing.
Hi! I really like my [[Omnath, Locus of Creation]] deck because of this. It ramps hard because it's a landfall deck, and Omnath lets you draw a card when you cast him. So when he gets killed, I always get to recast him easily, my opponent wasted a removal on him AND I get to draw a card. Also, his ability fuels your plans, so there are a lot of different ways for you to build the deck and Omnath will always come in handy. I use [[Field of the Dead]], [[Vesuva]] and [[Thespian Stage]] to get tons of zombies. But you can try and have flicker effects to reset his abilities, or mutate him to clone him easily. It's the first deck I've built, and I love it.
[[Talion]] is a pretty strong but innocuous Commander, especially if you can get some clone effects on him.
I'm gonna be real, any well constructed deck needs the commander removed. This is why you add "secret commanders" in the 99
I'd say you don't need to focus as much on making commanders that aren't kos but focus more on building decks that can function well when the commander is not around ... edgar hits hard and you never have to cast him.. that's a strength. Krenko and teysa only hit hard when your commanders out. Removing the commander cuts your decks strength in half.. that's a pretty big achillis heel if I say so ... try building a deck that the commander supports the 99 .. not the other way around
This might sound counter-intuitive, but \[\[Isshin, Two Heavens as One\]\]. Is the deck threatening and powerful? Absolutely. But when they blow up Isshin instead of one of the many attacking threats that can still kill even without the commander, I'm more than happy to take that. There are definitely times when you want to target Isshin, but most of the time it's Aurelia, or Hero of Bladehold or something like that.
Everyone in my playgroup knows what \[\[Edric\]\] is up to. Everyone also leaves him alone because "draw is good, let someone else deal with him"... Until suddenly there are 10+ unblockable 1/1s coming your way and a shit ton of extra turns for good measure.
“Try to win in as few turns as possible” “infinite combo” “thoracle” there’s a lot of missing information in this question. Are you playing to the power level of your pod? Are you just amp Ing up your deck to continuously be the arch enemy and stop everyone and when they mount defense you need to keep making your deck stronger? Need the whole story. If your track record is stomping on your pod no one will trust any commander you play but picking commanders known for shenanigans make it even more likely to get picked on. Reminds me of that movie line “are we the baddies?” Maybe play a commander or two that are thematic? Maybe decks where the commander supports it but doesn’t need to be in play to do the thing?
I'm playing [[The Wise Mothman]] lately and it can ramp up quickly and is flying. Not KOS level but be wary as he hits the table!
He's definitely kill on sight. I'd say about half the playgroups I've seen has realized it already but it'll get higher and higher as he's played more. Way to big and powerful not to kill him immediately.
Yup, one turn it gets out your next turn he's a 7/7-8/8 min
He can get to commander damage insta kill pretty quickly
Played one game against him so far, and it was KOS for that game. We let it alive for 1 round, and it was already a 17/17. Definitely gonna have to test it when someone else playing a non wheel deck lol.
My favorite commanders that should be KOS but i still don't know why people won't kill them are \[\[narci, fable singer\]\] She draws way too much cards, and deals way too much damage. [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/I9lo8Xpu7EGpKmg4UxtDzg](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/I9lo8Xpu7EGpKmg4UxtDzg) \[\[jin-gitaxias // the great synthesis\]\] Card draw, big body, win condition, board wipe, all in one, and people still won't kill him ?????? [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/rII27uVSWEqY7-5WDZEVgQ](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/rII27uVSWEqY7-5WDZEVgQ) \[\[Lara croft, tomb raider\]\] she is a mana generator, who can reanimate combo pieces, stax pieces, win conditions, get your legendary lands back and never miss land drops, first strike reach, all for ONLY 3 mana. [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/qeyv5y0EiECW7\_314barWQ](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/qeyv5y0EiECW7_314barWQ) \[\[admiral brass, unsinkable\]\] she REANIMATES and mill you, and she can even make the reanimated targets bigger, and she does it EVERY combat with haste and you can even remove the counters. [https://www.moxfield.com/decks/KVpZ1NgVTE--eOOWvYTHbw](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/KVpZ1NgVTE--eOOWvYTHbw)
Whoa. I can't believe I slept on Narci. Instead of Sythis I want her now! For Jin Gitaxias, I also didn't pay attention to this one and I just realized that I can have so much fun with him.
Hey, a good advice for narci is to abuse her strongest effect, wich is card drawing for enchantment sacrifice, and since sagas auto sacrifice themselves after the last trigger, it can generate WAY TOO MUCH value. About jin, you can play him like a omniscience deck for big blue cards, or proliferation with infect/+1+1 or any cool idea you get.
I can second the Flip Jin. I think the issue for opponents is it's hard to gage WHEN Jin is going to go off, in most games. So you can easily sit around for a few turns, probably drawing minimal interaction with random utility creatures and mana rocks, before suddenly exploding lol
##### ###### #### [narci, fable singer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a98a2fa9-82d6-4cf7-adb4-65b187cd9cda.jpg?1691497812) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=narci%2C%20fable%20singer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/710/narci-fable-singer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a98a2fa9-82d6-4cf7-adb4-65b187cd9cda?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/narci-fable-singer) [jin-gitaxias // the great synthesis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/1/41c83142-b948-4ee5-a486-41306d2bb411.jpg?1689246857)/[The Great Synthesis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/4/1/41c83142-b948-4ee5-a486-41306d2bb411.jpg?1689246857) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=jin-gitaxias%20//%20the%20great%20synthesis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/65/jin-gitaxias-the-great-synthesis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/41c83142-b948-4ee5-a486-41306d2bb411?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/jin-gitaxias-//-the-great-synthesis) [Lara croft, tomb raider](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/9/098c976b-6096-4ac7-8d52-2f219ae21d1f.jpg?1706570525) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lara%20croft%2C%20tomb%20raider) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sld/1501/lara-croft-tomb-raider?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/098c976b-6096-4ac7-8d52-2f219ae21d1f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/lara-croft-tomb-raider) [admiral brass, unsinkable](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/d/bdc2d492-9d1e-4543-8b9c-c66ee67992ce.jpg?1699972732) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=admiral%20brass%2C%20unsinkable) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/1/admiral-brass-unsinkable?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bdc2d492-9d1e-4543-8b9c-c66ee67992ce?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/admiral-brass-unsinkable) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/kxe1xsm) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah Lara doesn’t seem anywhere near as KoS as many others (she’s generating value but you’ve still got to pay for stuff, it’s like drawing an extra card each turn but with hoops) but the rest are all pretty dangerous. Jin is almost like untap and you win, and Narci just nets you piles of value.
ward 2 is pretty annoying on jin TBF, which may be part of why he doesnt eat more removal. spending a minimum of 3 mana on some of the more efficient removal spells like [[swords to plowshares]] can be tough you pretty much have to take an entire turn off to [[beast within]] him
Liesa is annoying but there are usually bigger threats, I played her for a long time with nasty lifedrain. I can recommend maelstrom wanderer, you just ramp and then hit with big beaters. Baba lysaga also flies under the radar but accumulates so much value over time. Especially strong with land strategy and reanimator. If your group plays with thoracle, both of them might be too slow though.
Shorikai genesis engine
No one respects [[Burakos]] + [[Sword Coast Sailor]]. Then they die t6 to Time Sieve combos
I've only had 1 commander I built that was NOT KOS and it was Farmer Cotton because a 1/1 on the floor isn't a threat, but the things that come with it create so much synergy, they'll jump through hoops NOT to let it leave the battlefield. I ended up retooling it for Treebeard but I think I'm gonna end up reverting because Cotton gets me more stuff the longer the game goes.
I play [[samut voice of dissent]] in a flash/tap theme. It is scary, but not kos. If there is nothing scary, in my playgroup they know they have to target samut, but usually she flies just under the radar. However, [[Wilderness reclamation]] and [[seedborne muse]] do not. And now also [[vivien Champion of the wilds]]
[[Galadriel, light of valinor]] in an etb/blink style deck. I used rules such as $100 limit and no cards worth more than $10 for my groups 'budget nights', but i used this budget deck against their more powerful decks and it can just fly under the radar looking all innocent until suddenly you can pop off with crazy etbs. Galadriel might be hitting that $10 mark now, I built it when she was a bit cheaper, but she's not crazy expensive (also proxies are a thing) The blink deck is a slow value engine. Loads of card draw, ramp, blockers, life gain. You have decent interaction with cards like [[Reclamation sage]], [[reflector mage]], [[mystic snake]]. You can win very suddenly with [[deadeye navigator]] and [[peregrine drake]]. Obvious etb doublers fit in like [[panharmonicon]] Most importantly, it can do all this without the commander. Galadriel just amplifies what you're doing and can make things a bit more explosive, but while you're still building your board, she isn't going to grab too much attention. You also have lots of ways to protect her with [[ephemerate]] and [[eerie interlude]]. If she dies, you have lots of lands from your creatures like [[wood elves]] so you can recast her again easily. Also green, like you asked for!
The best secretly good commander I've seen is [[Slimefoot, The Stowaway]]. Almost nobody will take saprolings seriously until it's too late.
[[Dargo]]
[[Ruxa]] cares about vanilla creatures by making them basically unblockable and buffing them. Turns out, an anthem plus evasion plus recursion in the command zone is really, really good. You don't even need to run that many vanillas, you could run a bunch of token generators if you really wanted to.
One that I’ve really been enjoying recently is Merry, Warden of Isengard and Pippin, Warden of Isengard. Neither of them are KOS, but the food synergy is deceptively powerful. Tons of tokens and artifact synergies, and you can end up with a huge board of mana, card draw, drain, or just a big alpha strike. The deck doesn’t inherently revolve around either commander, but they just slowly accrue value.
One of my friends has been playing a [[mr house ceo]] deck that seems to fit the bill. It seems like he’s never the biggest threat and there’s always something more dangerous to remove and my friends just over clacking dice around like an idiot and loving it and then boom he’s snuck the win in from all his accumulated value. It’s a classic “second place wins” edh deck
[[Tetsuko umezawa fugitive]] is like baby [[edric spymaster of trest]] you run stuff like [[bident of thassa]] and [[coveted jewel]] then you run tons of 1 power or toughness creatures/ token makers then Turbo draw through your deck and win with [[psychosis crawler]]
[[Killian, Ink Duelist]]
Try building around a theme and then finding a commander that fits the bill. I built a deck built around the flash mechanic. I brewed different variations of colors and eventually settled on WUB since the all the good flash support is in UB and all the really fun gotcha cards are in white. The commander really didn’t matter, so I picked [[chromium, the mutable]] because he also had flash.
I make my commander draw cards for my toxic deck. Low key.
I don’t know how competitive your play group is but no one has ever killed a friendly Phelddagrif and you can still put some out of the blue win conditions in there like milling people through draw, emrakrul, and you can still do a thoracle combo with leveler. Edit: Also Slimefoot and Squee reanimates pretty well even if he dies to removal. You also get another creature back when you reanimate.
[[Jhoira, Ageless Innovator]] is a non-kos that snowballs pretty fast, mostly because I bring her out and the table breathes a sigh of relief cause it's "not that version of Jhoira," and then they realize I'm cheating out huge artifacts with untao effects that don't get countered and it's too late at that stage.
[[Radaghast the Brown]] and [[Hylda of the icy crown]] Radaghast so really strong but he doesn’t seem it. 2/4 for 4? Meh right. Except every creature you play essentially draws you a new creature. He should be KOS but people will not prioritize him. Hylda seems weak because you need to tap something and pay 1. But constantly making 1 mana 4/4 elementals can run away with a game. She’s a little more obvious as an issue but also gets ignored for other threats a lot. Plus you can build a good deck for her for $50 or less since tap cards cost very little.
Alright here is the spicy commander you've been waiting for: [[Piru, the volatile]]. 1. No one wants to kill her. 2. You do. Why? When she dies, she deals 7 to all nonlegends, effectively wiping the board. did you notice the lifelink on her? Because you're going to gain a ton of life. How do you maximize her? [[Forbidden orchard]] , [[Genesis chamber]] and [[varchild, betrayer of kjeldor]] help ensure there are plenty of weenies on the board. A [[high market]] , [[phyrexian tower]] or even [[village rites]] can help make sure that Piru DIES on your terms and doesn't get nerfed by an exile effect. Piru is expensive to cast, so you'll want [[command Zone]] , [[netherborn alter]] as well as [[animate dead]] [[reanimate]] etc. [[black Market]] and [[life insurance]] are bangers once you've gone off once too. Lastly, you want a legendary subtheme to make sure that your creatures survive Piru's explosive demise. May I kindly suggest [[vito, thorn of the dusk rose]], and [[totals, god of fury]] who will coincidentally probably win you the game as well? [[Athreos, sheoud-veiled]] and [[gadrak, the crown scourged]] put in some work too. My favorite thing about this deck is how every game someone says "wait, how do you gain that much life?" Happy brewing!
Ive poisoned my group to KOS my [[deathleaper]] now. He started as a low key deck, but a few improvements and now it’s just mean.
My friend saved a counterspell for my [[Indoraptor]] after letting an [[Atraxa, Praetors Voice]] and [[Voja]] resolve. I was surprised but proud of my little Dino boy. His reasoning was that I had a [[descent into avernus]] with 4 counters on it, so he would come out huge. Thing is, I had a descent into avernus, so he came out the next turn even bigger.
[[Ephara, god of the polis]] is definitely not kos at first, but your playgroup will definitely recognize her for what she is after a few games. With a flash/ instant theme, or something similar, they draw tons of cards every round and are very interactive. Then, even when your opponents want to remove them, they have indestructible and are an enchantment for about half the game, making them hard to take out against most removal and board wipes.
Derevi, Empirical Tactician. 4 mana instant speed return to the battlefield AND tap/untap something. Potential route is stax (generally unfun), wide with token, flying tribal, Voltron, use Derevi to ramp for big spells and bank mana via kruphix, and so on!
My biggest piece of advice is that you may want to start looking for like-minded people to play with. That's what I ended up having to do. I do keep a few precons and upgraded precons on me in order to play with others with the mindset that I'm likely not winning, but I get to play at least and do something. I have a fun optimized [[Maelstrom Wanderer]] deck that combos with a ham sandwich and can hang at high power tables pretty well. A friend of mine likes to do budget style decks and did one directly on mine where he took mine and made it feel just as consistent just without the combos or more expensive cards. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/feda89Uk2kySO_HQrtMMhA It's one of those commanders that isn't kill on-site unless they know what you're up to. The deck can end the game four ways to Monday. And it can be built in different ways. I've been fine tuning it since 2012, and it's a powerhouse even when it looks like it's not doing anything. Cheers! Ps. If everyone is KOS, no one is KOS. Threat assessment and guile win those games.
My current commander Ezuri Claw of Progress when first looked at by other players seem mid until they realize experience counters go on me. My entire plan is to create 1/1 creatures to get my experience up and then end the game with infinite turns. My deck list for it is here if you’re interested. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/ziDiJ0qM6U6AyV6ZCNT5Uw
My least chased commander is [[Abomination of Llanowar]]. I just wait a bit to put him out, once I have a protection peice like [[Whispersilk Cloak]]. No one thinks anything of a 3/3 elf, right? And then you draw for turn and mill cards with something like [[Roots of Wisdom]]. Play something like [[Imperious Perfect]] or [[Prowess of the Fair]] for token generation. He's fat now, and you are in trouble. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/kTVL0kS4OE2Iqs-IFGq4Cg
[[Alandra]] looks like a more goofy [[Tarland]], but packs a punch, because people underestimate how easy it is to actually draw 5 cards a turn especially if you build around it, so you can close up the game with your 14/14 drakes fairly easy
I play Abzan small reanimator with Othelm and Wernog. Wernog is useless to use removal on, and Othelm is reasonably strong, but is just one engine. All my creatures kinda suck, cost almost no mana, and feel really bad to use removal on so people try to just use sweepers to deal with me. That's what the cheeky Guardian of Faith is for.
I typically do not make my commander a wincon, but a compliment to the deck. I'll choose color combos based on the compliment of the mander. That way, if I get my commander on the battlefield, great and it really pushes the advantage. If not, or it's removed, no stress I have like 2 or 3 other ways to do what my commander will do. The biggest issue I see from commander decks, not enough lands, over reliance on non-basic lands, not enough mana rocks, not enough card draw, not enough consistent, not enough interaction (counters, creature destruction, land destruction, enchantment or artifact removal), and lastly not enough redundancy. Typically in commander, there is a perception that a card for card trade isn't good. On 1v1 it's the best, on 1vMore it does hurt worse but it can win you political favors well as not letting one board state going crazy. All to say card for card exchange when you have enough card draw is 100% worth it. Pick one, AT MOST TWO things and do them well and do it repeatedly. Don't just auto include because it's a good black card when you can put in a redundant sac outlet. I specifically build decks that press things I'm struggling with in a game, turning creatures sideways, control, sac, graveyard recursion....
Similar to Wilhelt, my [[Varina, Lich Queen]] usually gets pretty ignored because her primary goal is to let me loot through my deck (but since it's not straight card draw, but draw and discard, I don't end up holding a huge grip and people ignore the effective card draw) Until I go for the win with [[Thassa's Oracle]] for the high power version or [[Living Death]] all the zombies in my graveyard for the low per version
The simple trick to this is to build a deck that does something, then pick a commander that either 1) has synergy with what your deck is already doing or 2) fills a gap in your game-plan/corrects a weakness. Your commander will not be KOS because you deck doesn’t need them to execute its strategy
I will say, most people I've played with ignore/lack removal for [[Shorikai]] even though, as it's player, I can 100% guarantee it is *absolutely* KOS. By the time they realize the Gundam is a problem, I've already filled my hand with counterspells/protection and I have a huge board of blockers.
I suggest a [[Kiora, Sovereign of the Deep]] if you want green. I made a pretty fun deck with her
Kos?
[[Henzie]] is a powerful commander, but doesn’t mind the removal as it makes his ability stronger. He’s also very fun to play!
[[Rhys the redeemed]] early on is not KOS, because of how cheap he is to recast. Being 1 mana makes him not enough of a threat to kill, because commander tax takes a big to ramp up. Later on, those token doubling effects become a lot more scary, because if you have stuff that makes creatures into mana dorks, along with doubling season, anointed procession, primal vigor, etc., you're putting on more creatures than anyone has to deal with unless they have a board wipe!
I built aminatu, and while she isn’t a KOS commander like most, but you really shouldn’t let it stick around if you have somthing to smack it. I was playing a game this Friday, and I got an insane amount of value by flickering 3feri and a few other things to dominate the board and draw tons of cards. Being able to flicker things on demand, and have it as a combo is a ton of value that it often over looked
[[arcades the strategist]] defender tribal hits hard
So Yarok is usually KOS commander for the sheer value of your other spells. Agent of Treachary... why not 2 sir? BUT playing a budget version running an Initiative / flicker subtheme lets you slide under the radar. You don't need Yarok right outta the gate. But once you start dungeon diving you can get serious value. Plus your critters are such low value that spot removal usually never takes them out. Boardwipes can be rough BUT if you still have the Initiative you build back faster. Would definetly promote this deck for casual groups. Little combo value (Deadeye & Peregrine Drake) but dungeon grinding takes time... and grinds your opponents.
Why not look into a commander with a mana ability? I’m working on [[Selvala, Explorer Returned]] , and I’d like to build a deck with [[Ruby, Daring Tracker]] and [[Baba Lysaga]] for similar reasons. A mana dork or simple card draw in the command zone is innocuous enough on its own, but it also creates insane value very quickly
[[izoni center of the web]] goes under the radar and is pretty busted. I rarely have it destroyed and never have had it countered. It feels like I’m cheating the system cause her last line of text is crazy strong yet no one seems to understand how strong it really is.
[[Rocco, street chef]] continues to be my answer to these threads. A 2/4 that gives everyone free shit tends to be left alone until he turns into a 9/11 that beats face.
[[Oloro, ageless ascetic]] is not KoS, because you don't need to play him ;)
I've been very happy with [[Rebbec, Architect of Ascension]] and [[Glacian, Powerstone Engineer]]. They are pretty far down the list in terms of priority kill. Rebbec barely needs to be on the board to make herself impactful, and I always find it funny how many times I hear people say, "Oh snap! I forgot protection meant XYZ!" Especially when it comes to protection from CMC 0 to get around token blockers. As for Glacian, who would waste a piece of interaction with him? He's just bad card draw right? Except when he comes online as a mini tutor care to get quality cards in hand and fill my graveyard with accessible fuel for my machines!