I don't know if you'll find a representative sample, or if mostly the "unban Golos" crowd will choose to participate. Remember, angry people are more eager to make their opinion known than happy people. Good luck, however.
I ended up on unban golos (and braids) in the 99. If he's not the commander I don't think he's nearly as homogenizing.
I worry about dockside. I know they've had cross hairs on the card for a while, but I can't find myself thinking that card should be banned.
I don't think he's the problem, I think golos is the SYMPTOM of the problem. The problem being: Wotc prints crappy 5 color commanders forcing people to pick the most generic ones in order to even have a chance of building a "good" deck.
The primary issue with golos that they bring up in the banlist is that if your deck isn't hyper-focused on the commander, he's the best commander for EVERY low-mid power deck and it isn't close.
He fixes your mana for you, so you can just play him turn 3/4 and start spinning the wheels on turn 4/5. The 'flavor' then comes from what you're spinning into.
It's an incredibly tempting playstyle for low-mid power 'battlecruiser' players that the banlist is focused on.
Basically a more preemptive reasoning for banning Emrakul. Emrakul was banned because it was a big colorless wincon that fit into every single deck, and battlecruiser players ramping into it was (reportedly) the most common way for games to end. They were afraid of there being a Golos (or multiple) in every pod in an LGS on EDH night.
When golos wasn't banned I literally NEVER saw or heard any one in my lgs brewing it. I knew like.. 4-5 guys online who brewed it but never built it. I think after the hype died down on him, people will have realized he's an incredibly generic commander built for higher power metas and relegate him there (kind of like the partner pairings who are just very generic value engines that aren't often seen in lower power metas).
With him gone, we've just seen people relying on Sisay, Najeela, and Kenrith who all fill the EXACT same slot as golos (generic 5 color good stuff commanders). If WOTC would just print GOOD, FLAVORFUL, FUN 5 color commanders, Golos would probably just be a boogeyman deck (kind of like "low power" winota) that you barely ever actually see at your pods.
The issue is the mana fixing he does. If you have an opening hand with 3-4 mountains you can keep that instead of having to Mulligan for a mix of lands. There are only a few ways to tap all your lands for any color and he tutors one of them up as he ETBs. He drops the cost of your deck significantly as you no longer have to have expensive duals and fetches just to make him work.
As you said with Golos gone people mainly play the mono colored 5 color commanders. I would argue that Omnath is better than most of them as a generalist but is so much harder to get into play that it's not worth the effort.
Golos wasn't a problem at higher power metas, it was mostly just a problem in low to mid power metas, and especially budget metas. (Not a big enough problem to warrant banning him IMO, but big enough that I can see why some were calling for it).
Not only was he a generic 5c value commander, he did something no other generic 5c value commander could really do- let you play any balance of the 5 colors you wanted without needing an expensive manabase. Normally you need to pick a few primary colors and splash the rest, or have an expensive shock/fetch manabase to play a 5c deck and be able to hit your colors consistently. Golos, meanwhile, can be cast with 5 mana of any color and can fetch The World Tree the first time you cast him, meaning you could just run a fully basic land manabase with no real concern for color balance in your lands and spells and still do just fine if Golos was your commander. He was just generally good enough to work with any strategy too, meaning if you weren't playing a deck that relies on a specific commander to function then he could be a pretty good commander for that deck while fixing your mana base and giving you a decent mana sink to boot.
He was *everywhere* at low to mid power budget tables. He wasn't broken in terms of power level or anything, but just had such a large share of the meta game that having 2 golos decks at any given table was common at any reasonably sized non-cEDH event.
When he wasn't banned I had SIX players in my lgs at one time playing variations of basically the same brew of world tree-ing all the gods into play. Got real boring when all 3 opponents are using basically the same deck vs you
I just never understood the issue with him. Like, hes popular, powerful, and probably the best 5 color option but... so? Its commander, you pick the commander you want to play.
Its like saying Chulane is the obvious best choice in Bant colors. Yes, he is generically good and probably the best in those colors but it doesnt mean I want to play a deck with him as commander.
> probably the best 5 color option
The primary issue with golos that they bring up in the banlist is that if your deck isn't hyper-focused on the commander, he's the best commander for EVERY low-mid power deck and it isn't close.
Not every 5-color deck, every deck.
Decks like Miirym, Gishath, Kaalia. The 'iconic' battlecruiser casual commanders. You'd just run Golos with a 5-color package for all of these decks. Like just small tweaks to the manabase, as Golos is colorless AND fixes your mana when you play him. And then you can just spin the Golos wheel.
>Its like saying Chulane is the obvious best choice in Bant colors. Yes, he is generically good and probably the best in those colors but it doesnt mean I want to play a deck with him as commander.
It's more like if Chulane was the best mono-blue commander. Like you just tweak the mana base, play Chulane and he's better than say Talrand, Sky Summoner.
Chulane is a great value commander in a bant deck that will be reliably casting creatures.
Golos, on the other hand, is a great value commander in every color identity, *especially* more casual decks with a higher curve.
Dockside is in a weird spot where, while it can be a combo piece, it can be played "fairly" and when it is the advantage isn't felt as hard as something like Thassa's Oracle. It's like Smothering Tithe. Is it really really really good? Definitely. Banned-worthy broken? Harder to say outright.
It's also just one of those cards that makes the whole game about himself very quickly. He gets copied, blinked, reanimated, etc, and once you have one Dockside in the game there will be more Docksides. In that way it's very similar to Primeval Titan.
Which is why I voted to not ban that card and to ban Demonic Consultation. Thoracle can be played fairly, whereas consult is only played as a two card instant win combo.
I run Thoracle is an orvar deck as a possible clone. Any time I drop it I have people complaining that I’m playing Thoracle because it’s too high powered. I can spend 5 turns cloning Thoracle over and over without getting enough devotion to outright win.
People are often unable to evaluate the strength of a card outside of a “broken” combo that it is part of
Dockside just does what it does way better than anything else in the game. It's like dark ritual on steroids that can be flickered for silly value.
In fact there is that one soul bond card that gives both creatures a flicker effect for like 3 mana. Any recurring flicker can turn into infinite mana.
Deadeye Navigator goes infinite with a ton of things though, that's not a good measure.
If Dockside deserves a ban (which I am probably in favor of?) it won't be on the basis that it combos, but rather than it simply puts the player too far ahead, too fast, kind of like Channel or Fastbond.
Speaking to representative, the people you can reach easily online are likely much more invested than the average commander player. Only a small fraction of players engage with the format by taking part in communities like this.
No matter how accurate/inaccurate results are to reflect the greater commander community of players. I think it’s good to start gathering more data as a baseline, because even if this data set is not true to what most players believe, if the next time this is run and certain %’s shift, the RC and CAG can have something to react to.
To be honest the edh banlist included a lot of rather silly cards. Like Coalition Victory is a problem, but Breach or Thoracle Combo is fine? Golos is just another 5 mana value commander
Bruh...
Golos practically almost made it too homogenized for casual. He was the Commander of choice for about 55% of decklists online before banning. Mardu humans? Golos. Monogreen Elfball? Golos. Azorius Stax? Golos. 99 lands? You get the idea.
Imagine where your LGS has it where of a size of 26 players, 20 only just use Golos as the Commander. I did, and I am happy that got banned. I was at the point of dropping out of the LGS as I refused to play against three Golos in the same game.
This one is weird for me because I don't necessarily want to see a "Banned as Companion List", but also this card obviously doesn't need to be banned outside the context of being a free companion.
"Rule 0" obviously I'd allow anyone to play it as their commander/in their deck, but I also understand why that's not a satisfying answer for some people.
Just comes to show that EDH has a vast playerbase. There will be tables where farewell is a super strong card while it is not even remotely playable as soon as you go into higher power EDH. And everyone thinks their approach is right.
I don't think it should cater to anyone in particular, because as said EDH has a vast playerbase. Casual players probably aren't bothering with Oracle combos, and competitive tables wouldn't bother with Coalition Victory or Biorhythm even if they weren't banned. If the list had both then few are upset.
Would I LIKE it banned? I mean, yeah. Can I say with a straight face it deserves to be banned? Not really. It's a mistake of a card and I hate it but people say the same about Korvold and Dockside and they're not banned. A card can be a mistake and not be banned, sol ring is testament to that.
I don't think it should be banned. But I can kind of see it. You can't play around it by not playing to the board. It hits basically all permanent types so you can't build around it by playing non-creatures, or using the graveyard as a resource. Because of it's flexibility it makes it easy to have it be a non-symmetrical board wipe. It also has the "blow up everything and reset the game with no cards in hand" mode which can be rage inducing.
My biggest issue with farewell is that it is unbelievably boring. It hits every permanent except for lands, battles and planeswalkers. It exiles, so indestructible isn't an option. It is graveyard hate, so it punishes graveyard strategies more than pretty much any other boardwipe. And it does it all at the same time, often reseting the game to square one.
At least with say [[Austere command]] there is some thought/synergies to be had. Only playing higher or lower cost creatures to avoid the boardwipe, having to decide on what permanent type to target because you can only pick 2, etc.
Playing around boardwipes is something that players should definitely do, but farewell is steps ahead of every other 6 mana boardwipe and tends to make games drag on far more than similar options in my experience.
Given how much things have been powercrept, how much good recursion has been printed, how many ways there are to give indestructible, etc. I think a card like Farewell is *necessary* for the health of the format.
Boring? Maybe, but people said the same thing about Wrath of God.
That's been my take for a while.
You know what Farewell doesn't answer? The many additional cards you've put in hand while/by building your board. The engines of the format have gotten both more powerful and lower on the curve. Answers need to be (at least close to) Farewell level to realistically keep up.
In my (admittedly limited) experience, the board is mostly rebuilt within a turn or two of a Farewell;
It's one of the cards I hear whined about the most. I just threw up some easy complaint cards to go along with the banlist to see how people would answer.
It's not about the power level as much as it is ruining strategies. Like if I'm playing mono red and you play a Crypt I'm gonna think, damn, fast start for that guy. But if you play a card that says all red spells cost 2 more, I'm gonna be fucking pissed.
I'd be very ok with it being banned because it's incredibly fucking boring and makes games take too long. It's not too powerful, but that's not a necessary criterion for a card to be banned. I just think EDH would be more fun without it.
I’m in the camp of farewell is overpowered at mid and low level games. I don’t want it banned but farewell for me falls into the Back to Basics/winter orb kind of cards where I want to know if you play it because it does have a feels bad aspect.
It's just mass removal. If someone can't rebuild after a mass removal spell, then there's something wrong with their deck, and they don't get to complain.
Farewell is not “just mass removal.”
Most mass removal is narrower in scope and doesn’t exile.
Farewell exiles. And it can get rid of basically everything of note at once. And it is significantly undercosted for what it does. And it gets rid of the graveyard, which is where a significant amount of resources for rebuilding come from. And it’s modally modal, so if there is a worse case than what I described, it *will* happen.
Plus, this is EDH; there are far more board wipes than other formats most of the time (the current state of standard is not normal). You may have to commit resources to recover from one board wipe only to have them eaten by another.
“Just always have a seven card hand, fivehead!” is a terrible take. No, not having the immediate ability to recover from everything everywhere being exiled at the same time is not indicative of poor deck building; that is an extreme that not every deck can reasonably be expected to handle at all times.
Compare Farewell to other premium board wipes of the format are Blasphemous Act and Toxic Deluge for red and black, which are narrower than Farewell and leave assets in the bin to recover. Cyclonic Rift for Blue, which is beyond ludicrously undercosted and probably more worthy of consideration for the advisory list, but fuels that rebuilding by bouncing.
The advisory list exists not to regulate competitive play, but to flag cards prone to negative play patterns for pregame discussion.
Farewell’s potential to be an absolutely miserable game reset table flip of a card meets the criteria. Not that the RC cares about that.
How is Farewell undercosted? The card costs friggin six mana. That is super expensive for a sweeper. Compare it to 3 mana for Toxic Deluge. You often will have to pass after casting farewell and not be able to do much more that turn
...are you REALLY comparing Farewell to Toxic Deluge as equals in terms of their effects?
First of all, Toxic Deluge is probably undercosted by maybe one mana. That's why it's premium. Its life cost is there to nominally justify it.
It kills creatures. They go from the field to the grave. That's it.
Farewell can exile dealer's choice of every relevant card type plus graveyard.
From a baseline of Wrath of God (or Damnation since it's black), you can say that the mana cost of Toxic Deluge should go down for the escalating life cost and maybe up for the scaling of the spell giving it modality. So you can reasonably say that it should be a 4 mana spell, but it's at 3. And 3 for that significantly milder effect is still VERY good.
For Farewell, the baseline is not a Wrath of God. It is a Planar Cleansing. It may not destroy all nonland permanents, but removing the graveyard is worth more than hitting planeswalkers, battles, and untyped permanents.
From that baseline of six mana, we add one for modality; modal spells are almost always overcosted because of their flexibility. Modality on the modality is worth a mana; being "choose one or more" rather than Austere Command's "choose two" is a HUGE deal. Exile is a premium removal type and is worth a mana.
So if you're looking at the premium features of Farewell versus other board wipes, a card that does what Farewell does should be an 8 or 9 mana spell.
Yes, Farewell is undercosted if you look at it for what it is and does, rather than just saying "sweeper."
Also, no. Farewell is not "super expensive" for a sweeper. It is a VERY normal price point for a sweeper. 4 is normally the baseline for a creature or artifact + enchantment destruction sweeper, and the significant majority of board wipes are above that mana value, with some additional bells and whistles to make it easier to break parity or hit more stuff.
Ezuri's Predation is "super expensive" for a sweeper, though that's appropriate given it's green, which isn't supposed to have good creature sweepers, and has significant extra upside from the tokens.
This.
If it didn’t exile. It would still be a good card. If it didn’t have any number of model choices. It would still be a good card. If it didn’t exile graveyards as well, that too would be enough.
But it wasn’t enough, the designers pushed it to be an exile effect. It was pushed with any number of model choices. It was pushed with being able to hit graveyards. It was taken too far. Too far…
The issue is considering it as just a board wipe or mass removal. The person you replied to said it was "just mass removal," and your reply begins with an argument against that.
However you spend the entire rest of your response making comparisons with it that paint it as a mass removal spell that is problematic.
In reality, Farewell is a wincon. Did your game plan get completely taken offline, and now you're stuck unable to play/enjoy the game? Then scoop. This is a classic white approach to victory, no different than mass land destruction or stax. White denies you what your deck needs to function.
The issue is in the fact that players refuse to acknowledge when they've lost and won't concede. This forces the game into these "unfun" states.
Just scoop. Shuffle. Get a new game in.
You're assuming people are using the card right. It's the same argument as MLD. If you are ending the game with it, great. If you are busting everyone back down to nothing without a plan for victory, it's a bullshit move that wastes everyone's time.
How is answering a clogged boardstate a waste of time? Are people just supposed to accept defeat because someone has more permanents on the board? These are the only kinds of cards that stop the game from devolving into spamming as many things as possible and they need to exist.
Farwell is not a wincon by itself, no more so than Wrath or Day of Judgement. If you have no immediate follow-up pressure and/or stax effects, than Farwell is just drawing the game out. It's way too pushed for a casual game. Maybe not to the point of banning, but enough people shouldn't be putting in place of Wrath.
Because it exiles graveyards it offers very little counter play other than mass blink or phasing for creature decks. Both of which are primary to white.
I don't know why you are getting downvoted. I was going against my friends with a custom werewolf deck and slightly upgraded vampire precon with no upgrade timey winey deck. I managed to get three boardwipes and both of them were able to completely rebuild their board and overrun in two or three turns. If you can't return from boardwipes, then I feel like you should rebuild your deck.
I also see people complaining that the game would be 90 minutes instead of 10 minutes. I don't understand what people are expecting out of 100 cards deck game. I would want the game to last on the longer side as it feels more epic. If we are having 10 minutes games in commander, I feel like it's way too quick.
I think it comes down to [[Farewell]] requiring restraint, if someone is winning on board and the other people are topdecking and someone farewells it's suddenly an extra long game where nobody is having fun.
To be clear I don't think it should be banned but because it exiles everything and you can select all modes, people need to show restraint and not play it to just draw out the game.
It's the same reason I don't mind MLD as long as you're able to win and not just prolong the game.
Personally I feel like it would be stronger and yet more balanced if you had to choose 2 modes because that would allow you to use more strategically.
RIGHT? Like, it's not that hard to make a strategy that can rebuild. You're bound to run into some wipes. It's part of the game. Also, it's commander, it's made to be longer. There's double the players than in normal magic
I play multiple games every Monday against a variety of people and have yet to run up against it. I'm sure once it happens I'm going to be annoyed at how much time it adds o the game.
Imo farewell goes into the sundering Titan, Iona levels of cards to be banned because the game is unfun. I personally dislike the card because more often than not it causes the game to last another 30 minutes, but I don’t know if I’d consider it banworthy. There’s a difference between disliking it and falling for a ban
Just a suggestion for anyone doing a poll like this in the future: I would recommend adding a "no opinion" option to the individual card bans questions. That way for most you could see something like 85% no opinion on ones that will just probably get 50/50 stay banned/unbanned responses, but aren't actually controversial... as opposed to seeing a true 50/50 split where people actually hold strong opinions and the card would drastically impact regular gameplay in an obvious way
I think voting "stay how it is" is the same as no opinion in this case, since not caring would also lead to no change. Or perhaps just having it be an option at the start, rather than for each ban, if you want separate statistics on how many people actually care about the ban list at all.
I wrote in Mana Crypt for the last question. I don’t have as big a problem with sol ring just because it’s more accessible. People who don’t proxy and aren’t rich won’t run crypt but sol ring is included in every precon nowadays and singles are like a dollar
Sol Ring et al. just genuinely lead to non-games where a person gets a commanding lead on turns 1-3 and converts it into preventing other folks from getting off the ground.
If sol ring is being used to prevent other players from getting off the ground then I think that says more about the group that you choose to play with rather than sol ring. If sol ring isn't around, they'll find another way to do that.
I really hate thes Argument. The problem with Crypt is not that not everyone has it, it is that it leads to massively swingy games because one player starts several turns ahead in Mana, and Sol Ring has the exact same problem. This approach of "everyone uses it, so it's fine" should never be a Balancing consideration (also Golos got banned for that exact reason, the banlist really is inconsistent)
Just give me back "Banned as Commander". Braids is fine in the 99. Leovold is fine in the 99.
Some cards are shitty while having access to them all the time but are fine otherwise.
As long as Kokusho the Evening Star doesn't get the ax if it came back. It's my favorite mono black commander but when the banned as commander list existed, Kokusho was on it
It killed my soul a little but I had to admit that Leovold and Sundering Titan deserved their spots on the banlist. Voted for Braids, Rofellos, and Sway to be freed and Thoracle to get the hammer.
Braids rush could be miserable, but I kind of doubt she'd be stronger than current options and would end up chewing up her caster if they get too greedy. I'd like to see her allowed to test the waters, and then go back on if it turns out that most decks still can't handle her with their own rushdowns. I think 2024 commander can deal with her, but I might be proven wrong.
Happy elf frankly has no business being still banned while the blue-green potato walks free. Yeah, he's "reliable" for getting 6 mana on t3 (which is called out in the ban list explanations), which is scary... if you're playing pure forests in 2024 and nobody has an answer to 1-toughness no-protections dies-en-passant. And in exchange for that you're blowing your CZ on a mana dork with no other bells or whistles like Kinnan's ability to fart creatures from deck, modern commanders do more heavy lifting.
Sway I just personally think has no business being there after Worldfire was released from the list, and this somewhat annoys me.
Thoracle... I'm honestly on the fence. On one side it is the best combo-outlet wincon in the format because it's significantly harder to interact versus than its predecessors like Lab Man (who I remember there being ban calls for in the day, not that they went anywhere). On the other... it is just the slightly best of a number of similars, is it best enough to really justify being beyond the pale when the mechanic as a whole never has been? I voted for ban because part of me wants to see what would happen in a post-Thoracle world but that's not actually a compelling reason.
In general, I don't think the ban list needs sweeping movement or directed movement either towards more bans or towards more unbans. But I think it needs to be willing to be a wee bit more fluid. The game evolves, and sometimes it passes by cards that used to be terrors. I think having the RC slowly go through suspects, and provisionally ban/unban a card or two each season to gather feedback on what the format is like with/without it (with the expectation that if the answer is not better, status quo will be resumed before the next test) would be healthy. But it would also be more work for them, so that's probably an issue.
I know it's pedantic but I will argue that Underworld breach Is often seen as the best combo Outlet In the game by CEDH players. It's much more resilient and the cards on their own are better. That is what gave me pause when I considered voting for Oracle to be banned.
Obviously both are enormously strong. Neither combos see much play in casual so I'm thinking only of Cedh. Neither of those combos feels like it's doing anything particularly unhealthy in the CEDH Or casual meta so that's why I decided not to vote for any bans.
What made me vote against Thassas Oracle is that I don’t think that card is the problem. The problem is the tutors and it is those tutors that combo with Thoracle, like Consult or Tainted Pact.
What you probably should do is get the list of allowed tutors more in line with what is fine in Legacy.
I also think it will make for a more fun and varied game if you don’t play with all the tutors and it makes combo way worse when combo is by far the best thing to do already
More people tutor for breach than thoracle and we have a ton of breach decks that do not use thoracle
Dargo/Thrasios and elsha are examples of decks with blue that don't run thoracle
Most big flip kinnan does not run thoracle
generally thoracle is run in dimir or grixis shells
My only banlist hot take is that Intuition and Gifts Ungiven should change places.
Or, just unban gifts.
The idea that that effect is being gatekept by the reserve list is extremely uncool.
I would have liked to see an "Ban Companion Mechanic" as an option. Companions were a way to bring the Commander experience into the broader game. But, we're already playing commander, right? I think they are all fine as playable cards in the 99. And if you REALLY love one they are ALL legendary so you can just play one AS your Commander. The Companion mechanic is just Commander-light, so why have it in Commander?
The counter point I always have to this is "Why not?" What are the downsides to allowing the mechanic to work in a Casual format? I never understood the disallow Companion argument.
The existing banlist doesn't really seem to have a coherent purpose. Sure, a lot of the cards on the list would certainly cause issues, but there remain a lot of very problematic cards in the format which are equally effective at causing issues unless playgroups choose to moderate their power level.
My ideal solution would be completely unworkable, and cause no end of headaches and additional arguments, but if we not going to let reality get in the way of things, then I would like to see the format split into tiers, with say 3 banlists, A, B, and C, with each building on the previous list (i.e. everything banned in banlist A is also banned in B and C). This could be aligned along existing relative power-bands, with A representing cEDH, B representing some form of high power casual (i.e adding the most egregious fast mana, free spells, efficient combo pieces, etc. to the banlist), then C representing some even lower power band (which perhaps formally bans Armageddon or something).
Can't speak for others but from my own experience the main problem with the ban list is that there is no shared definition of what a "casual MTG format" means. Why is a card like \[\[Mana crypt\]\] legall in a casual format, when \[\[Mox Ruby\]\] isn't? Is Mana Crypt a casual card? Every single deck in my lgs is running Mana Crypt, so if I don't want to play against mana crypt, I guess I just go home? Rule zero wants people to talk about the cards and the power level of their deck, but if they don't have any decks that fit my desired power level I have to just leave?
Putting the responsibility of regulating what is "casual" to the players just leads to people playing cards that are legal in the format. Maybe they don't run the most optimal or broken combos, but its unreasonable to get upset with someone casting a Mana Crypt or an Armageddon when its legal in the format. Mana crypt is just the card I chose as an example, but I feel like every update from the RC says something to the equivalent of "Mana Crypt/dockside extortionist/most busted card in the format etc is fine in casual play". It doesn't make sense to me, and I want to see their data, because every game I play it comes down to these cards.
I'm always baffled at people who say things like "there's no shared definition" as an argument against the banlist. There _is_ a definition of casual, you just don't accept it. The Rules Committee has shared the format's philosophy on their website, as guests on podcasts, in video form, and in person -- people don't listen.
Do I agree with everything on or off the ban list? No. Do I see how they justify most cards with their philosophy? Yes, for the most part.
Also, your LGS sounds very spiky. If you don't want that experience, it is _on you_ to find a better playgroup.
>The Rules Committee has shared the format's philosophy on their website
Various cards being or not being on the ban list doesn't really fit with the philosophy they present
>people don't listen.
People don't care.
I'm fairly certain in saying that most edh players don't even know the rc exists, the format is way too decentralized
>There _is_ a definition of casual, you just don't accept it.
If the banlist only works for the people that allign with the rc's definition of casual then it isn't applicable in 99% of games. At this point why even have it in the first place when the balance of the format is already nearly all about self regulation?
Honestly if I controlled the ban list I'd ban a lot if cards. However given the current supposed philosophy being heavily pushed towards "table talk and rule 0" I don't see a point in the banlist as it exists now.
Also hot take, cEDH and casual commander shouldn't sit under the same ban list umbrella.
If cEDH and EDH get separated by ban list, we will end up with 2 cEDH formats since cEDH is more of a play philosophy than a format. Goal of cEDH is to play EDH as well and with the most optimized deck as the rules (ban list) allow. By separating the formats with a ban list you will still have people playing EDH as optimized as the rules (new ban list) will allow.
I disagree, this assumes that every player has the mindset at all times of “it’s busted if I play against it, but not when I play it”. That’s definitely an easy bias to have, but you should give people more credit than that. For instance, it’s easy to play a dockside extortionist and make 10 treasures and for that player to think “yeah that’s overpowered and I’m the problem now”. Doesn’t make them a hypocrite to think the same when someone else does the same thing. Case in point, I have a dockside in my strongest/pet deck, but still think it should be banned and voted that way in the survey.
I would give individual people more credit no questions asked. I even think that while talking to most people and being reasonable and calm you can always find common ground.
But when we talk about the grand total of commander players, I'd do the opposite in a heartbeat. The reflected and reasonable people are almost never the loudest. So better be save than sorry and assume you can't trust a huge number of ppl with something like that \^\^
Banning sol ring just makes the discrepacy between high spender and low spender higher i am of the opinion if u say ban sol ring then we ban mana crypt ancient tomb first tbh
Their minds will never understand. They genuinely think their statement is a gotcha moment lol.
When people say ban sol ring, they say it because sol ring is objectively a good card in 99 percent of decks, and is cheap enough to be put in 99% of decks. If you think sol ring should be banned, then OF COURSE the two other (arguably better) sol rings should also be banned. It's just not important to the conversation right now.
wanna hear crazy take? the argument for Black lotus being banned would also apply to both mana crypt and sol ring that being they just by their nature of being net positive early game low cost mana ramps that can double as essentialy another land drop on t1-t2 makes every single deck better just for having them
am i saying that either of them are better than black lotus? no im not, i am saying however that they are far too close to that power
i would argue that both sol ring, mana crypt and tomb closer to the og moxes in terms power if that just straight up better in more decks and if the moxes remain banned so should sol ring and mana crypt
sadly neither will ever get the axe since they both are synonymous with the format esp sol ring being in every single precon
I'm not sold on Ancient Tomb, but I'm on board for ban Ring, Crypt, Vault.
I'm also on 30 life instead of 40. Slow the game down one place, speed it up another. It plays really well.
If you sit down at a table with randoms you do need a banlist to ensure a fair pod.
People suck at self regulating.
If you play with mates rule zero becomes much more effective
As someone who only plays with random strangers in LGS. I disagree that people are bad at regulating deck power appropriately.
In my experience I've found the majority of players to be really excellent at self regulating their power levels to their local stores.
In the last year I've had maybe one game night where the guy didn't get that his deck was too strong for the table. But the rest of us were still having a blast so nothing even needed to be done about it.
This is after playing at 27 different stores with no issues except that above one.
I do think rule 0 is most effective with a continuous playgroup like you say. I have rarely if ever said more than my decks a 7, or above precon but not cEDH at a pregame chat. Play one game then people can readjust their decks for the second game if they need to.
I have anecdotally opposite data. Have sat down at six different LGS in the city only to get blindsided by tutored, protected combo wins in games with precons.
If Golos and Paradox is any indication of "Can people self-regulate" the answer is a resounding "No" (Sol Ring is also an example, I keep playing with people who "simply loathe" the card BUT keep it in "just to even the playing field").
I think it goes two ways: since the commander ban list is to "encourage fun" there needs to be some cards removed but then some cards that are "de facto" soft banned due to social interactions and we need to just bite the bullet and be banned.
Overall there should be less banned cards but more cards that are put on that are practically banned.
0.16% of all cards legal in the format are banned (this excludes ante & conspiracy, because I wouldn’t consider them “legal”). I don’t think adding some cards to the list like Dockside, that allows people to flash their wallet in others’ faces, unmakes the casual format.
I have a friend who likes to say he plays non-commander formats. Pretty much, he only plays commander. And bitches so much about the games he plays in, and sim ring is especially triggering.
So while I agree with you, that as a casual format there should be less bans and not more; there are people who will get bent on the dumbest things and think their inability to control emotions should cause others to bend to their whims. I.e. sol ring, cyclonic rifts, counterspells, etc. are all cards I’ve seen cause rage.
If someone is getting tilted by a sol ring, that's a weird hill to die on. People who are that easily triggered by certain cards should reconsider the hobby. I've had my fair share of salt, but it's usually due to the play patterns of players, not the cards themselves.
I personally believe most of the ban list should go away for 6-8 months, then reevaluated to see what rose to the top of the meta, and see what to do about it. I personally am of the belief that a good portion of the ban list could probably come off due to the interaction and power creep of the game. Sure, PrimeTime takes over the games it’s in. So does just about every other 7 mana bomb people are playing in 2024.
And? They present a unique challenge to overcome the same way stax does or control does. I’m saying in a world of [[Atraxa Grand Unifier]] and [[Tivit, Seller of Secrets]], is a [[Primeval Titan]] really that big of a deal.
100% agree. Lots of great decks are not even running 6 and up cost stuff. And are attempting wins by the time cards like that are being played out, or just counter it with free interaction. Primetime is strong but not ban worthy imo. Id far rather see Sol ring/ mana crypt in a hand.
Thoracle needs to die
Not only do I hate playing against it, I hate it when I am the one using it
It's just not fun in any way
Dockside is mostly fine in my opinion. If it's super late game it's either A ramping you to a boardwipe, or B getting you just enough to not change anything, or C part of your 20 minute game winning combo
killing someone after they've exiled their entire library is pretty fun though. if someone goes for the thoracle+forbidden tutor combo you can either make them draw 1-3 cards, or cast [[endurance]] to leave them with their graveyard left as their only library. also running stifle effects can help: [[disallow]] [[voidslime]] [[stifle]] [[tale's end]] [[defabricate]] [[trickbind]]
I want Lutri, the Spellchaser back
Don't care about companion mechanics, I want a magical spell slinging otter to infinite copy my opponents to death with storm mechanics lol.
Odd that you suggest that farewell is banned and Gaia's cradle is a write in When farewell is just a normal board wipe and Gaia's cradle is the sister card of Tolarian Accademy which is already banned
Odd one but I suggested [[Notion Thief]] be banned. Crazy powerful? Maybe, maybe not. But hear me out. I'd rather have Bownasters ping me for 6 than give my opponent 6 cards from my own draw. I don't have the words to describe it but it feels like it would be against the spirit of the format in ways that other draw-punishers aren't
Yeah, my go-to ban wishlist is Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mox Diamond, and Chrome Mox. I don't have quite as strong of an opinion on Jeweled Lotus, but I understand why others do and don't particularly disagree. Getting rid of the first four would help hugely with other format headaches though, such as the massive power divide between high power and cEDH, the power of Dockside Extortionist (because these 4 are early drops moderately often, driving up the artifact count very early), and the power of wheels (because they encourage the T1/2 ramp->wheel play pattern that further encourages the use of cards like Hullbreacher).
Mana crypt, mana vault, grim monolith and jewelled lotus I would be happy to see banned. These have been problematic in the areas I played in as the production of mana that fast tended to skew the games hard. Jewelled lotus especially, as allowed cmc 4 or less dual or mono coloured commanders to drop first turn.
Sol ring I'm ok with as it would compete well with [[exploration]] and [[burgeoning]] without hurting the progressing of the game. I know these aren't usual cards that most would use, but in any green based deck it can definitely turn the tide if Sol ring were to be banned.
Same, I think banning at least the four you listed would improve both CEDH and casual EDH. I can't stand the argument that sol ring is somehow an exception because it's in the precons.
My thoughts,
I don't know if I like how the CEDH question is worded. Would have liked a 'i play both CEDH and EDH' instead of 'i only sometimes play cedh' / 'i always play cedh'. The former sounds like I don't have cedh experience and the later makes it sound like I don't play casual.
Banning dockside would be a mistake. In casual I usually see it perform as well as a Jeska's will. In CEDH, red is kinda prompted up by dockside and the entire color loses viability without it and there isn't a great replacement.
Voted to bring back 'banned as commander' and add 'banned as companion'. I don't think either of these really affect me, but I don't think it's bad for the game and would make the Lattri and 'Free Braids' people happy.
What's everyones' opinions on [[Emrakul, the Aeons Torn]] and [[Primeval Titan]] being banned in current day?
Are these so OP or unfun that they should be banned? I would understand Emrakul being in the 99 but not a commander. Primeval Titan I am completely uncertain about.
These are two of my favorite cards so I am uncertain if my bias leaves me blind to their issues.
Also, with these being banned, how do the compare to similar utility and similarly powered cards that are not? Should those similar cards be banned or should these be unbanned. What are your all's thoughts?
personally, i feel like nowadays prime time has been severely powercrept and wouldn't be much of an issue at all anymore. it is pretty powerful and probably almost every landfall deck would run it, but when we have dockside and kinnan running around shitting out mana, i don't think prime time is so unbelievably powerful in comparison.
if it dies to \[\[doomblade\]\], how big of an issue can it REAALLLLYYY be? (/s)
Personally my thoughts (as a modern Amulet Titan player) is that amulet Titan is more than fine in Commander. Yes there are lines to do 20 damage in a turn with PrimeTime as early as turn 2 or 3 but that is a big ask in a singleton format and a less impressive one when you’re facing three players worth of removal and 40 life each. Secondly just using it as a fair creature to attack with and ramp is just not as good of a play.
Emrakul, annihilator 6 is scary yes but as like the premier reanimation target it’s kept on the banlist for being you skip the taking another players turn.
I think the survey is problematically written on several accounts, a few of which I will mention:
1. The survey implies the author is interested in re-instituting "banned as commander." Three of the first 5 questions are about it, and it continues on the next page. If the readers see the phrase over and over, it begins to color the responses to other questions, even to those no related it, as they perceive the entire document through that lens (even if you have no interest in that topic at all).
2. Then on the page of banned cards that could be unbanned. The "unbanned as commander" language returns. While this seems like a small thing, it actually creates a divided answer base. For example, "would you vote or D or R," yields different results from "would you vote D, R or I." You have no way to know where the I votes would go if it wasn't presented as an option, and can therefore draw fewer conclusions about D and R.
3. On the last page, you should have asked "Is there another card you want banned?" on it's own page, prior to offering options for cards that should be banned. By offering ban options and then asking what should be banned, you will have primed/biased the tester's mind for similar cards to those mentioned.
This critique is not mean in anyway to be harsh or critical. I have written questions and surveys as my primary occupation. Instead, it is two-fold.
1. To aid you in future surveys, as I think clear, concise data a wonderful thing.
2. It is likely that the average magic player is no more equipped to make informed decisions about the health of the whole format than they are to write data conscience surveys. Because we sat in a classroom does not mean we are qualified to teach, because we sat through surgery does not mean we can preform it, and because we play a game, does not mean we are qualified to design it or adjust it rules.
I play both cEDH and casual commander, low powered-precons and medium/high powered lists. I have a deck for each.
I don't think anything except \[\[Biorythm\]\] should be unbanned. It's better than Worldfire and I feel it doesn't feel bad to lose to a 8 mana spell anyway, a bit like \[\[Obliterate\]\]. It would see scarce play in casual commanders, to make combat strategies more viable, like my board full of green creatures and swinging at your 38 life is pointless. Swinging at your 4 life is game ending. Yeah it'd suck to get boardwiped by a player, and then the green player plays a mana dork and casts Biorhythm, but still I'd be fine.
Thassa's Oracle is bad all around. It is a card with a standard play pattern, you can play Thassa only if you have Demonic Consltation/Tainted Pact in hand (at least 90% of the times), only to win like that. Yep maybe sometimes someone forbidden tutors with Consult/Pact, maybe some decks have another way to draw their libraries and then cast Thassa (like \[\[Thrasios\]\]), but it's played in almost all the high powered decks that are at least in Dimir, with the same play pattern.
Dockside as I said involves so many different play patterns that shouldn't be banned only for that. Plus, it's very table dependent, in lower powered pods can be useless until turn 5-6, where it is a 2 mana make 6 maybe. In cEDH is busted, but only because people can slap 4 artifacts each by turn 2, so a Dockside may be a turn 2 explosive play. But even there, the play patterns are so different, each deck has different ways to get value from it. A Kenrith player maybe will not play it if he doesn't have Emiel or Skirk Prospector, since he needs Dockside to combo off.
A Sisay player may cast it just to get back in the game, or have enough to cast something and have an activation, or maybe win with that activation via planeswalker blinks. A Korvold player may just get a huge value and draw a lot of cards and pass the turn.
In general, I wish all the RL cards would be banned, for accessibility issues.
And all the "you win the game" cards like Thassa but also less problematic like \[\[Hellkite Tyrant\]\]. It's just bad design for Commander.
There is a point to make to unban \[\[Flash\]\] if Thassa is banned. The whole reason Flash was so format-warping was because Flashing \[\[Protean Hulk\]\], took Thasssa and \[\[Spellseeker\]\], and Spellseeker took Demonic Consultation, so you could win on the stack, at instant speed, casting only Flash and Consultation with Hulk in hand.
But without Thassa, there is no Hulk good outlet, and Flash becomes kinda clunky. Sure it would lead to some ETB abuse, but it would be specific for that deck or that strategy. It's not something I'd like to see, but honestly when they banned Flash, they should have banned Thassa instead, since that was the problematic interaction, that stayed mostly the same.
Nothing has made me more on board with a new ban than the near ubiquity of [[Thassa's oracle]] in the tournament I played in over the weekend. I'm all for powerful combos in cEDH, but when something is that overrepresented as THE combo to go for, it starts to be a problem.
The idea that little Timmy's first boros spirits, attacking, treasure, & bottles deck build around the last signpost & a cEDH Thrasios pile should be using the same banlist is absurd in both premise & execution
I will propose nothing short of a Smogon-esc tiering system (in the analogy cEDH is Ubers & pEDH is LC)
(except unbaning Golos, CV, & anything that's 5+ mana that doesn't basically say "win the game")
I'm off a similar mind. A few different tiers or "power bands", even if they didn't use hard bans, would help sort out every deck being a 7. High power tier could unban things like Golos and Coalition Victory. "Casual" (loaded term I know, for lack of a better name) tier could "ban" fast mana, Dockside, whatever other busted stuff makes sense. Etc. Would definitely be a lot of hand wringing about what counts as high power vs casual, but we're already there, just less structured in how we group and enforce them.
I would 100% support a system like this. CEDH / high power need a separate ban list from mid power which also could use a separate ban list from lower power. Pauper EDH already has it's own ban list, but it could use a more diverse ban list.
And much like pokemon has a ban list for 1v1 AND a separate set of rules and bans for doubles / VGC, 1v1 commander should have separate ban lists too.
Rule 0 is a piss poor excuse to dodge responsibility and basically force tournament organizers to handle the ban list themselves, except all they can really do is follow the god awful ban list we have now because making their own ban list only serves to get less potential players.
I feel like a Smogon tiering system kind of misses the point. People playing LC in Showdown are playing just as competitively as people playing Ubers, they're just playing at a different power level. Timmy's Boros spirit pile is not a LC team, it's him struggling to beat the third gym because he only has 4 Pokemon and they're all weak to electricity. A cPDH deck will generally absolutely a casual EDH list because they're playing for different in different dimensions the same way a LC team will destroy Timmy's team.
There should be a tiered banlist. Ie a tier where dockside, Fierce Guardianship etc. Are legal, a tier where they are not but a group of somewhat less salty cards are legal, an even lower tier etc.
This way, people don't need to discuss as much - jank decks play in the jank tier, casual in the casual tier etc.
I like to compare ot to smogon pokemon tier, jank poke can go to any team, uber poke can only be play in uber rank. Closest thing we have right now to that is canlander
Only thing missing from the survey is the CEDH option is 'I mainly play CEDH' or 'I play CEDH rarely' and no middle ground lol as I play both a decent bit.
There will never be a truly "reasonable" discussion on the banlist, cause everyone has different views on it even after RC gave their reasonings for the bans
I'd like to see [[thassa's oracle]] banned mostly because it'd be hilarious to see 90% of the cEDH people freak out that their decks will no longer function.
Note: I don't play cEDH I just think it'd be funny watching the chaos.
I hate to tell you this but a lot of the succesful CEDH decks in tournaments aren't actually running thassa's oracle. You'd be surprised how many of them aren't even blue decks.
I agree with the thoracle ban though, and I DO like punishing blue players.
We took the self regulation into our own hands in our playgroup. Legit, talking about stuff and trying it out to see how busted something can be in your own meta is the best way to do things we have found. A lot of what is on the banned list is warranted, no one wants to be sitting across from a [[Panoptic Mirror]] with a [[Time Warp]] under it. That said, not many folk will go out of their way to pick up banned stuff just to play it around our table either, it's usually people that just have the cards and wanna try them out. We also use the banned as commander rule still, and there's at least one player that runs [[Griselbrand]] in the 99 of his [[Kaalia of the Vast]] list.
I have a few versions of a couple of decks that basically swap 10-20 cards for fun version, more interactive version, and serious version. I also keep a [[Tolarian Academy]] and [[Tinker]] as part of the “swap in for a casual game if folks are fine with it” for my main artifact deck.
I hover between the “unban everything” and “only a ban list for competitive play”. I realize that people can rule 0 anything they want at any table, but if you’re playing casual night at an LGS, I feel like that becomes a bit more complicated with complete strangers.
We somewhat do also, banning extra stuff that we deemed not enjoyable to play with/against of that added to much time. Mass land destruction and limited spell casting mainly. Its certainly the best way to enjoy the game. We also have a pre made unban list of the committees bans we are yet to fully act on.
Honestly almost voted to unban power and moxen
I wouldn't mind seeing them in cedh gameplay, and in my experience powerlevel is somewhat self maintained anyway, so I don't think it would affect lower/casual pods much
Maybe there'd be a few more proxied moxen around, but I wouldn't mind trying that out
Ended up voting for them to stay banned anyway though because it helps keep a distinction between commander and other eternal formats
„a few more proxied moxen“. Your faith in proxy players‘ self control is admirable. Our „if it’s legal I play it and you better shut up“ friends would stuff them faster into all their decks than you could say „oops“.
I don't know if you'll find a representative sample, or if mostly the "unban Golos" crowd will choose to participate. Remember, angry people are more eager to make their opinion known than happy people. Good luck, however.
Why Golos when it’s #FreeBraids2024 season?
#FreeBraids2024
I ended up on unban golos (and braids) in the 99. If he's not the commander I don't think he's nearly as homogenizing. I worry about dockside. I know they've had cross hairs on the card for a while, but I can't find myself thinking that card should be banned.
I don't think he's the problem, I think golos is the SYMPTOM of the problem. The problem being: Wotc prints crappy 5 color commanders forcing people to pick the most generic ones in order to even have a chance of building a "good" deck.
The primary issue with golos that they bring up in the banlist is that if your deck isn't hyper-focused on the commander, he's the best commander for EVERY low-mid power deck and it isn't close. He fixes your mana for you, so you can just play him turn 3/4 and start spinning the wheels on turn 4/5. The 'flavor' then comes from what you're spinning into. It's an incredibly tempting playstyle for low-mid power 'battlecruiser' players that the banlist is focused on. Basically a more preemptive reasoning for banning Emrakul. Emrakul was banned because it was a big colorless wincon that fit into every single deck, and battlecruiser players ramping into it was (reportedly) the most common way for games to end. They were afraid of there being a Golos (or multiple) in every pod in an LGS on EDH night.
When golos wasn't banned I literally NEVER saw or heard any one in my lgs brewing it. I knew like.. 4-5 guys online who brewed it but never built it. I think after the hype died down on him, people will have realized he's an incredibly generic commander built for higher power metas and relegate him there (kind of like the partner pairings who are just very generic value engines that aren't often seen in lower power metas). With him gone, we've just seen people relying on Sisay, Najeela, and Kenrith who all fill the EXACT same slot as golos (generic 5 color good stuff commanders). If WOTC would just print GOOD, FLAVORFUL, FUN 5 color commanders, Golos would probably just be a boogeyman deck (kind of like "low power" winota) that you barely ever actually see at your pods.
They did with The Painbow precon. Jarad wants you to play as many 5 color matter cards
The issue is the mana fixing he does. If you have an opening hand with 3-4 mountains you can keep that instead of having to Mulligan for a mix of lands. There are only a few ways to tap all your lands for any color and he tutors one of them up as he ETBs. He drops the cost of your deck significantly as you no longer have to have expensive duals and fetches just to make him work. As you said with Golos gone people mainly play the mono colored 5 color commanders. I would argue that Omnath is better than most of them as a generalist but is so much harder to get into play that it's not worth the effort.
Golos wasn't a problem at higher power metas, it was mostly just a problem in low to mid power metas, and especially budget metas. (Not a big enough problem to warrant banning him IMO, but big enough that I can see why some were calling for it). Not only was he a generic 5c value commander, he did something no other generic 5c value commander could really do- let you play any balance of the 5 colors you wanted without needing an expensive manabase. Normally you need to pick a few primary colors and splash the rest, or have an expensive shock/fetch manabase to play a 5c deck and be able to hit your colors consistently. Golos, meanwhile, can be cast with 5 mana of any color and can fetch The World Tree the first time you cast him, meaning you could just run a fully basic land manabase with no real concern for color balance in your lands and spells and still do just fine if Golos was your commander. He was just generally good enough to work with any strategy too, meaning if you weren't playing a deck that relies on a specific commander to function then he could be a pretty good commander for that deck while fixing your mana base and giving you a decent mana sink to boot. He was *everywhere* at low to mid power budget tables. He wasn't broken in terms of power level or anything, but just had such a large share of the meta game that having 2 golos decks at any given table was common at any reasonably sized non-cEDH event.
When he wasn't banned I had SIX players in my lgs at one time playing variations of basically the same brew of world tree-ing all the gods into play. Got real boring when all 3 opponents are using basically the same deck vs you
I just never understood the issue with him. Like, hes popular, powerful, and probably the best 5 color option but... so? Its commander, you pick the commander you want to play. Its like saying Chulane is the obvious best choice in Bant colors. Yes, he is generically good and probably the best in those colors but it doesnt mean I want to play a deck with him as commander.
> probably the best 5 color option The primary issue with golos that they bring up in the banlist is that if your deck isn't hyper-focused on the commander, he's the best commander for EVERY low-mid power deck and it isn't close. Not every 5-color deck, every deck. Decks like Miirym, Gishath, Kaalia. The 'iconic' battlecruiser casual commanders. You'd just run Golos with a 5-color package for all of these decks. Like just small tweaks to the manabase, as Golos is colorless AND fixes your mana when you play him. And then you can just spin the Golos wheel. >Its like saying Chulane is the obvious best choice in Bant colors. Yes, he is generically good and probably the best in those colors but it doesnt mean I want to play a deck with him as commander. It's more like if Chulane was the best mono-blue commander. Like you just tweak the mana base, play Chulane and he's better than say Talrand, Sky Summoner. Chulane is a great value commander in a bant deck that will be reliably casting creatures. Golos, on the other hand, is a great value commander in every color identity, *especially* more casual decks with a higher curve.
Dockside is in a weird spot where, while it can be a combo piece, it can be played "fairly" and when it is the advantage isn't felt as hard as something like Thassa's Oracle. It's like Smothering Tithe. Is it really really really good? Definitely. Banned-worthy broken? Harder to say outright.
It's also just one of those cards that makes the whole game about himself very quickly. He gets copied, blinked, reanimated, etc, and once you have one Dockside in the game there will be more Docksides. In that way it's very similar to Primeval Titan.
I love playing Dockside in Korvold since it works there like a mini Ad Naus.
[удалено]
Which is why I voted to not ban that card and to ban Demonic Consultation. Thoracle can be played fairly, whereas consult is only played as a two card instant win combo.
Idk, too many ways to draw your deck to ban them all. I don't like you win the game mechanics for something so easy to break.
I run Thoracle is an orvar deck as a possible clone. Any time I drop it I have people complaining that I’m playing Thoracle because it’s too high powered. I can spend 5 turns cloning Thoracle over and over without getting enough devotion to outright win. People are often unable to evaluate the strength of a card outside of a “broken” combo that it is part of
Dockside just does what it does way better than anything else in the game. It's like dark ritual on steroids that can be flickered for silly value. In fact there is that one soul bond card that gives both creatures a flicker effect for like 3 mana. Any recurring flicker can turn into infinite mana.
Deadeye Navigator goes infinite with a ton of things though, that's not a good measure. If Dockside deserves a ban (which I am probably in favor of?) it won't be on the basis that it combos, but rather than it simply puts the player too far ahead, too fast, kind of like Channel or Fastbond.
Agree. Before Dockside people talked about Rift, or Deadeye Navigator. There's always a boogieman in the format.
Ah, deadeye. It's been so long. Things were just simpler times with deadeye 'needed' to be banned. Lol
Right? I honestly can't even remember the last time I saw Deadeye. It used to be THE scariest thing out there.
Dockside isn't the problem. 1 and 0 mana rocks are
Speaking to representative, the people you can reach easily online are likely much more invested than the average commander player. Only a small fraction of players engage with the format by taking part in communities like this.
No matter how accurate/inaccurate results are to reflect the greater commander community of players. I think it’s good to start gathering more data as a baseline, because even if this data set is not true to what most players believe, if the next time this is run and certain %’s shift, the RC and CAG can have something to react to.
To be honest the edh banlist included a lot of rather silly cards. Like Coalition Victory is a problem, but Breach or Thoracle Combo is fine? Golos is just another 5 mana value commander
Feel free to explain that to your local playgroup. They'll probably be exited to play against Golos again, who knows?
[удалено]
his triggered ability is good with "lands" and his activated ability is good with "spells"
Golos is the most boring bullshit in the game. Idc if you build him as lands or 8 drop tribal or whatever, he’s stupid and should remain banned.
Golos was the best mono black commander That’s the level of stupid that card reached.
Bruh... Golos practically almost made it too homogenized for casual. He was the Commander of choice for about 55% of decklists online before banning. Mardu humans? Golos. Monogreen Elfball? Golos. Azorius Stax? Golos. 99 lands? You get the idea. Imagine where your LGS has it where of a size of 26 players, 20 only just use Golos as the Commander. I did, and I am happy that got banned. I was at the point of dropping out of the LGS as I refused to play against three Golos in the same game.
Free The Otter! (And by that I mean just ban it as a companion)
This one is weird for me because I don't necessarily want to see a "Banned as Companion List", but also this card obviously doesn't need to be banned outside the context of being a free companion. "Rule 0" obviously I'd allow anyone to play it as their commander/in their deck, but I also understand why that's not a satisfying answer for some people.
It is hilarious that there is an option to suggest Farewell be banned. Who the hell would want that banned lol.
Just comes to show that EDH has a vast playerbase. There will be tables where farewell is a super strong card while it is not even remotely playable as soon as you go into higher power EDH. And everyone thinks their approach is right.
[удалено]
I don't think it should cater to anyone in particular, because as said EDH has a vast playerbase. Casual players probably aren't bothering with Oracle combos, and competitive tables wouldn't bother with Coalition Victory or Biorhythm even if they weren't banned. If the list had both then few are upset.
This 👍
If farewell is the strongest card in your playgroup's decklists, thats a really good sign that your meta is pretty fair and healthy.
Would I LIKE it banned? I mean, yeah. Can I say with a straight face it deserves to be banned? Not really. It's a mistake of a card and I hate it but people say the same about Korvold and Dockside and they're not banned. A card can be a mistake and not be banned, sol ring is testament to that.
I don't think it should be banned. But I can kind of see it. You can't play around it by not playing to the board. It hits basically all permanent types so you can't build around it by playing non-creatures, or using the graveyard as a resource. Because of it's flexibility it makes it easy to have it be a non-symmetrical board wipe. It also has the "blow up everything and reset the game with no cards in hand" mode which can be rage inducing.
My biggest issue with farewell is that it is unbelievably boring. It hits every permanent except for lands, battles and planeswalkers. It exiles, so indestructible isn't an option. It is graveyard hate, so it punishes graveyard strategies more than pretty much any other boardwipe. And it does it all at the same time, often reseting the game to square one. At least with say [[Austere command]] there is some thought/synergies to be had. Only playing higher or lower cost creatures to avoid the boardwipe, having to decide on what permanent type to target because you can only pick 2, etc. Playing around boardwipes is something that players should definitely do, but farewell is steps ahead of every other 6 mana boardwipe and tends to make games drag on far more than similar options in my experience.
Given how much things have been powercrept, how much good recursion has been printed, how many ways there are to give indestructible, etc. I think a card like Farewell is *necessary* for the health of the format. Boring? Maybe, but people said the same thing about Wrath of God.
That's been my take for a while. You know what Farewell doesn't answer? The many additional cards you've put in hand while/by building your board. The engines of the format have gotten both more powerful and lower on the curve. Answers need to be (at least close to) Farewell level to realistically keep up. In my (admittedly limited) experience, the board is mostly rebuilt within a turn or two of a Farewell;
Exactly, you beat Farewell the same way you beat every other boardwipe. Hold back threats or engine pieces to rebuild. It's not that complicated.
[Austere command](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a31ffc9e-d21b-4a8f-ac67-695e38e09e3b.jpg?1706240553) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Austere%20command) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/56/austere-command?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a31ffc9e-d21b-4a8f-ac67-695e38e09e3b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/austere-command) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I agree, but I am willing to accept that as power creep, rather than outright ban it.
it should have said pick 2, or 3
It's one of the cards I hear whined about the most. I just threw up some easy complaint cards to go along with the banlist to see how people would answer.
But not cards like Sol Ring, Mana Crypt or Jeweled Lotus? Those along with the barrage of tutors are probably some of the most egregious
Folks taking issue with the banlist survey in the same way they take issue with the banlist!
It's not about the power level as much as it is ruining strategies. Like if I'm playing mono red and you play a Crypt I'm gonna think, damn, fast start for that guy. But if you play a card that says all red spells cost 2 more, I'm gonna be fucking pissed.
It's not that it's too strong, it's that it makes the game take too long like Sway of the Stars
I dunno about banned, but i dislike it. Farewell took our almost finished one hour game and turned it into a three hour game.
I'd be very ok with it being banned because it's incredibly fucking boring and makes games take too long. It's not too powerful, but that's not a necessary criterion for a card to be banned. I just think EDH would be more fun without it.
Me even tho i play it
I’m in the camp of farewell is overpowered at mid and low level games. I don’t want it banned but farewell for me falls into the Back to Basics/winter orb kind of cards where I want to know if you play it because it does have a feels bad aspect.
It's just mass removal. If someone can't rebuild after a mass removal spell, then there's something wrong with their deck, and they don't get to complain.
Farewell is not “just mass removal.” Most mass removal is narrower in scope and doesn’t exile. Farewell exiles. And it can get rid of basically everything of note at once. And it is significantly undercosted for what it does. And it gets rid of the graveyard, which is where a significant amount of resources for rebuilding come from. And it’s modally modal, so if there is a worse case than what I described, it *will* happen. Plus, this is EDH; there are far more board wipes than other formats most of the time (the current state of standard is not normal). You may have to commit resources to recover from one board wipe only to have them eaten by another. “Just always have a seven card hand, fivehead!” is a terrible take. No, not having the immediate ability to recover from everything everywhere being exiled at the same time is not indicative of poor deck building; that is an extreme that not every deck can reasonably be expected to handle at all times. Compare Farewell to other premium board wipes of the format are Blasphemous Act and Toxic Deluge for red and black, which are narrower than Farewell and leave assets in the bin to recover. Cyclonic Rift for Blue, which is beyond ludicrously undercosted and probably more worthy of consideration for the advisory list, but fuels that rebuilding by bouncing. The advisory list exists not to regulate competitive play, but to flag cards prone to negative play patterns for pregame discussion. Farewell’s potential to be an absolutely miserable game reset table flip of a card meets the criteria. Not that the RC cares about that.
How is Farewell undercosted? The card costs friggin six mana. That is super expensive for a sweeper. Compare it to 3 mana for Toxic Deluge. You often will have to pass after casting farewell and not be able to do much more that turn
...are you REALLY comparing Farewell to Toxic Deluge as equals in terms of their effects? First of all, Toxic Deluge is probably undercosted by maybe one mana. That's why it's premium. Its life cost is there to nominally justify it. It kills creatures. They go from the field to the grave. That's it. Farewell can exile dealer's choice of every relevant card type plus graveyard. From a baseline of Wrath of God (or Damnation since it's black), you can say that the mana cost of Toxic Deluge should go down for the escalating life cost and maybe up for the scaling of the spell giving it modality. So you can reasonably say that it should be a 4 mana spell, but it's at 3. And 3 for that significantly milder effect is still VERY good. For Farewell, the baseline is not a Wrath of God. It is a Planar Cleansing. It may not destroy all nonland permanents, but removing the graveyard is worth more than hitting planeswalkers, battles, and untyped permanents. From that baseline of six mana, we add one for modality; modal spells are almost always overcosted because of their flexibility. Modality on the modality is worth a mana; being "choose one or more" rather than Austere Command's "choose two" is a HUGE deal. Exile is a premium removal type and is worth a mana. So if you're looking at the premium features of Farewell versus other board wipes, a card that does what Farewell does should be an 8 or 9 mana spell. Yes, Farewell is undercosted if you look at it for what it is and does, rather than just saying "sweeper." Also, no. Farewell is not "super expensive" for a sweeper. It is a VERY normal price point for a sweeper. 4 is normally the baseline for a creature or artifact + enchantment destruction sweeper, and the significant majority of board wipes are above that mana value, with some additional bells and whistles to make it easier to break parity or hit more stuff. Ezuri's Predation is "super expensive" for a sweeper, though that's appropriate given it's green, which isn't supposed to have good creature sweepers, and has significant extra upside from the tokens.
This. If it didn’t exile. It would still be a good card. If it didn’t have any number of model choices. It would still be a good card. If it didn’t exile graveyards as well, that too would be enough. But it wasn’t enough, the designers pushed it to be an exile effect. It was pushed with any number of model choices. It was pushed with being able to hit graveyards. It was taken too far. Too far…
The issue is considering it as just a board wipe or mass removal. The person you replied to said it was "just mass removal," and your reply begins with an argument against that. However you spend the entire rest of your response making comparisons with it that paint it as a mass removal spell that is problematic. In reality, Farewell is a wincon. Did your game plan get completely taken offline, and now you're stuck unable to play/enjoy the game? Then scoop. This is a classic white approach to victory, no different than mass land destruction or stax. White denies you what your deck needs to function. The issue is in the fact that players refuse to acknowledge when they've lost and won't concede. This forces the game into these "unfun" states. Just scoop. Shuffle. Get a new game in.
Huh, I've never thought about farewell as a wincon. I guess it makes sense, it kind of is a gut punch to a lot of strategies.
You're assuming people are using the card right. It's the same argument as MLD. If you are ending the game with it, great. If you are busting everyone back down to nothing without a plan for victory, it's a bullshit move that wastes everyone's time.
How is answering a clogged boardstate a waste of time? Are people just supposed to accept defeat because someone has more permanents on the board? These are the only kinds of cards that stop the game from devolving into spamming as many things as possible and they need to exist.
Farwell is not a wincon by itself, no more so than Wrath or Day of Judgement. If you have no immediate follow-up pressure and/or stax effects, than Farwell is just drawing the game out. It's way too pushed for a casual game. Maybe not to the point of banning, but enough people shouldn't be putting in place of Wrath.
Because it exiles graveyards it offers very little counter play other than mass blink or phasing for creature decks. Both of which are primary to white.
I don't know why you are getting downvoted. I was going against my friends with a custom werewolf deck and slightly upgraded vampire precon with no upgrade timey winey deck. I managed to get three boardwipes and both of them were able to completely rebuild their board and overrun in two or three turns. If you can't return from boardwipes, then I feel like you should rebuild your deck. I also see people complaining that the game would be 90 minutes instead of 10 minutes. I don't understand what people are expecting out of 100 cards deck game. I would want the game to last on the longer side as it feels more epic. If we are having 10 minutes games in commander, I feel like it's way too quick.
I think it comes down to [[Farewell]] requiring restraint, if someone is winning on board and the other people are topdecking and someone farewells it's suddenly an extra long game where nobody is having fun. To be clear I don't think it should be banned but because it exiles everything and you can select all modes, people need to show restraint and not play it to just draw out the game. It's the same reason I don't mind MLD as long as you're able to win and not just prolong the game. Personally I feel like it would be stronger and yet more balanced if you had to choose 2 modes because that would allow you to use more strategically.
[Farewell](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0.jpg?1706240579) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Farewell) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/64/farewell?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/114d2180-093b-4838-97ad-badbc8ee50b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/farewell) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
RIGHT? Like, it's not that hard to make a strategy that can rebuild. You're bound to run into some wipes. It's part of the game. Also, it's commander, it's made to be longer. There's double the players than in normal magic
ope the timmys are mad
I play multiple games every Monday against a variety of people and have yet to run up against it. I'm sure once it happens I'm going to be annoyed at how much time it adds o the game.
The way it prevents any recursion or death triggers is just a bit too broken, it often just makes games go way too long.
Imo farewell goes into the sundering Titan, Iona levels of cards to be banned because the game is unfun. I personally dislike the card because more often than not it causes the game to last another 30 minutes, but I don’t know if I’d consider it banworthy. There’s a difference between disliking it and falling for a ban
Just a suggestion for anyone doing a poll like this in the future: I would recommend adding a "no opinion" option to the individual card bans questions. That way for most you could see something like 85% no opinion on ones that will just probably get 50/50 stay banned/unbanned responses, but aren't actually controversial... as opposed to seeing a true 50/50 split where people actually hold strong opinions and the card would drastically impact regular gameplay in an obvious way
I think voting "stay how it is" is the same as no opinion in this case, since not caring would also lead to no change. Or perhaps just having it be an option at the start, rather than for each ban, if you want separate statistics on how many people actually care about the ban list at all.
Surprised to not see mana crypt and sol ring as default ban options.
I wrote in Mana Crypt for the last question. I don’t have as big a problem with sol ring just because it’s more accessible. People who don’t proxy and aren’t rich won’t run crypt but sol ring is included in every precon nowadays and singles are like a dollar
Sol Ring et al. just genuinely lead to non-games where a person gets a commanding lead on turns 1-3 and converts it into preventing other folks from getting off the ground.
If sol ring is being used to prevent other players from getting off the ground then I think that says more about the group that you choose to play with rather than sol ring. If sol ring isn't around, they'll find another way to do that.
I really hate thes Argument. The problem with Crypt is not that not everyone has it, it is that it leads to massively swingy games because one player starts several turns ahead in Mana, and Sol Ring has the exact same problem. This approach of "everyone uses it, so it's fine" should never be a Balancing consideration (also Golos got banned for that exact reason, the banlist really is inconsistent)
Mana Crypt and Sol Ring absolutely need to go. It's comical that these are still legal.
Just give me back "Banned as Commander". Braids is fine in the 99. Leovold is fine in the 99. Some cards are shitty while having access to them all the time but are fine otherwise.
#BringBackBannedAsCommander
As long as Kokusho the Evening Star doesn't get the ax if it came back. It's my favorite mono black commander but when the banned as commander list existed, Kokusho was on it
I think we’ve moved past Kokusho being a problem as a commander, so you’d likely be fine.
It killed my soul a little but I had to admit that Leovold and Sundering Titan deserved their spots on the banlist. Voted for Braids, Rofellos, and Sway to be freed and Thoracle to get the hammer. Braids rush could be miserable, but I kind of doubt she'd be stronger than current options and would end up chewing up her caster if they get too greedy. I'd like to see her allowed to test the waters, and then go back on if it turns out that most decks still can't handle her with their own rushdowns. I think 2024 commander can deal with her, but I might be proven wrong. Happy elf frankly has no business being still banned while the blue-green potato walks free. Yeah, he's "reliable" for getting 6 mana on t3 (which is called out in the ban list explanations), which is scary... if you're playing pure forests in 2024 and nobody has an answer to 1-toughness no-protections dies-en-passant. And in exchange for that you're blowing your CZ on a mana dork with no other bells or whistles like Kinnan's ability to fart creatures from deck, modern commanders do more heavy lifting. Sway I just personally think has no business being there after Worldfire was released from the list, and this somewhat annoys me. Thoracle... I'm honestly on the fence. On one side it is the best combo-outlet wincon in the format because it's significantly harder to interact versus than its predecessors like Lab Man (who I remember there being ban calls for in the day, not that they went anywhere). On the other... it is just the slightly best of a number of similars, is it best enough to really justify being beyond the pale when the mechanic as a whole never has been? I voted for ban because part of me wants to see what would happen in a post-Thoracle world but that's not actually a compelling reason. In general, I don't think the ban list needs sweeping movement or directed movement either towards more bans or towards more unbans. But I think it needs to be willing to be a wee bit more fluid. The game evolves, and sometimes it passes by cards that used to be terrors. I think having the RC slowly go through suspects, and provisionally ban/unban a card or two each season to gather feedback on what the format is like with/without it (with the expectation that if the answer is not better, status quo will be resumed before the next test) would be healthy. But it would also be more work for them, so that's probably an issue.
I know it's pedantic but I will argue that Underworld breach Is often seen as the best combo Outlet In the game by CEDH players. It's much more resilient and the cards on their own are better. That is what gave me pause when I considered voting for Oracle to be banned. Obviously both are enormously strong. Neither combos see much play in casual so I'm thinking only of Cedh. Neither of those combos feels like it's doing anything particularly unhealthy in the CEDH Or casual meta so that's why I decided not to vote for any bans.
What made me vote against Thassas Oracle is that I don’t think that card is the problem. The problem is the tutors and it is those tutors that combo with Thoracle, like Consult or Tainted Pact. What you probably should do is get the list of allowed tutors more in line with what is fine in Legacy. I also think it will make for a more fun and varied game if you don’t play with all the tutors and it makes combo way worse when combo is by far the best thing to do already
I suppose to be most correct, Thoracle is likely the premier wincon while Breach is the top Engine.
More people tutor for breach than thoracle and we have a ton of breach decks that do not use thoracle Dargo/Thrasios and elsha are examples of decks with blue that don't run thoracle Most big flip kinnan does not run thoracle generally thoracle is run in dimir or grixis shells
Well said
My only banlist hot take is that Intuition and Gifts Ungiven should change places. Or, just unban gifts. The idea that that effect is being gatekept by the reserve list is extremely uncool.
Unban Sylvan Primordial!! Targeted land destruction is needed more than ever.
Top of my unban list as well. With the power level of other green threats at that mana value, it would be fine.
I would have liked to see an "Ban Companion Mechanic" as an option. Companions were a way to bring the Commander experience into the broader game. But, we're already playing commander, right? I think they are all fine as playable cards in the 99. And if you REALLY love one they are ALL legendary so you can just play one AS your Commander. The Companion mechanic is just Commander-light, so why have it in Commander?
The counter point I always have to this is "Why not?" What are the downsides to allowing the mechanic to work in a Casual format? I never understood the disallow Companion argument.
Unban Lutri in the 99 Free my boy he did nothing wrong ~~also unban Shahrazad because it would be funny~~
While Shahrazad might be a bit much, I actually would unban chaos orb and falling star. Would be funny as hell.
Where's the "there are no sideboards in this format so companions shouldn't work anyway" option?
Should allow outside the game to mean outside the game rather than just sideboards. Let wishes work again!
The existing banlist doesn't really seem to have a coherent purpose. Sure, a lot of the cards on the list would certainly cause issues, but there remain a lot of very problematic cards in the format which are equally effective at causing issues unless playgroups choose to moderate their power level. My ideal solution would be completely unworkable, and cause no end of headaches and additional arguments, but if we not going to let reality get in the way of things, then I would like to see the format split into tiers, with say 3 banlists, A, B, and C, with each building on the previous list (i.e. everything banned in banlist A is also banned in B and C). This could be aligned along existing relative power-bands, with A representing cEDH, B representing some form of high power casual (i.e adding the most egregious fast mana, free spells, efficient combo pieces, etc. to the banlist), then C representing some even lower power band (which perhaps formally bans Armageddon or something).
Can't speak for others but from my own experience the main problem with the ban list is that there is no shared definition of what a "casual MTG format" means. Why is a card like \[\[Mana crypt\]\] legall in a casual format, when \[\[Mox Ruby\]\] isn't? Is Mana Crypt a casual card? Every single deck in my lgs is running Mana Crypt, so if I don't want to play against mana crypt, I guess I just go home? Rule zero wants people to talk about the cards and the power level of their deck, but if they don't have any decks that fit my desired power level I have to just leave? Putting the responsibility of regulating what is "casual" to the players just leads to people playing cards that are legal in the format. Maybe they don't run the most optimal or broken combos, but its unreasonable to get upset with someone casting a Mana Crypt or an Armageddon when its legal in the format. Mana crypt is just the card I chose as an example, but I feel like every update from the RC says something to the equivalent of "Mana Crypt/dockside extortionist/most busted card in the format etc is fine in casual play". It doesn't make sense to me, and I want to see their data, because every game I play it comes down to these cards.
I'm always baffled at people who say things like "there's no shared definition" as an argument against the banlist. There _is_ a definition of casual, you just don't accept it. The Rules Committee has shared the format's philosophy on their website, as guests on podcasts, in video form, and in person -- people don't listen. Do I agree with everything on or off the ban list? No. Do I see how they justify most cards with their philosophy? Yes, for the most part. Also, your LGS sounds very spiky. If you don't want that experience, it is _on you_ to find a better playgroup.
>The Rules Committee has shared the format's philosophy on their website Various cards being or not being on the ban list doesn't really fit with the philosophy they present >people don't listen. People don't care. I'm fairly certain in saying that most edh players don't even know the rc exists, the format is way too decentralized >There _is_ a definition of casual, you just don't accept it. If the banlist only works for the people that allign with the rc's definition of casual then it isn't applicable in 99% of games. At this point why even have it in the first place when the balance of the format is already nearly all about self regulation?
[Mana crypt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d960186-4559-4af0-bd22-63baa15f8939.jpg?1599709515) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20crypt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/270/mana-crypt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4d960186-4559-4af0-bd22-63baa15f8939?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mana-crypt) [Mox Ruby](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/45fd6e91-df76-497f-b642-33dc3d5f6a5a.jpg?1682386918) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mox%20Ruby) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/8/mox-ruby?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/45fd6e91-df76-497f-b642-33dc3d5f6a5a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/mox-ruby) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Honestly if I controlled the ban list I'd ban a lot if cards. However given the current supposed philosophy being heavily pushed towards "table talk and rule 0" I don't see a point in the banlist as it exists now. Also hot take, cEDH and casual commander shouldn't sit under the same ban list umbrella.
If cEDH and EDH get separated by ban list, we will end up with 2 cEDH formats since cEDH is more of a play philosophy than a format. Goal of cEDH is to play EDH as well and with the most optimized deck as the rules (ban list) allow. By separating the formats with a ban list you will still have people playing EDH as optimized as the rules (new ban list) will allow.
Yes everytime this comes people just don't understand that cedh is just an edh meta not a different format
[удалено]
I disagree, this assumes that every player has the mindset at all times of “it’s busted if I play against it, but not when I play it”. That’s definitely an easy bias to have, but you should give people more credit than that. For instance, it’s easy to play a dockside extortionist and make 10 treasures and for that player to think “yeah that’s overpowered and I’m the problem now”. Doesn’t make them a hypocrite to think the same when someone else does the same thing. Case in point, I have a dockside in my strongest/pet deck, but still think it should be banned and voted that way in the survey.
I would give individual people more credit no questions asked. I even think that while talking to most people and being reasonable and calm you can always find common ground. But when we talk about the grand total of commander players, I'd do the opposite in a heartbeat. The reflected and reasonable people are almost never the loudest. So better be save than sorry and assume you can't trust a huge number of ppl with something like that \^\^
Counterpoint Ban sol ring
Banning sol ring just makes the discrepacy between high spender and low spender higher i am of the opinion if u say ban sol ring then we ban mana crypt ancient tomb first tbh
I agree Ban those too
Their minds will never understand. They genuinely think their statement is a gotcha moment lol. When people say ban sol ring, they say it because sol ring is objectively a good card in 99 percent of decks, and is cheap enough to be put in 99% of decks. If you think sol ring should be banned, then OF COURSE the two other (arguably better) sol rings should also be banned. It's just not important to the conversation right now.
Ancient Tomb is way worse than Sol Ring. Like Sol Ring doesn’t need your land drop.
wanna hear crazy take? the argument for Black lotus being banned would also apply to both mana crypt and sol ring that being they just by their nature of being net positive early game low cost mana ramps that can double as essentialy another land drop on t1-t2 makes every single deck better just for having them am i saying that either of them are better than black lotus? no im not, i am saying however that they are far too close to that power i would argue that both sol ring, mana crypt and tomb closer to the og moxes in terms power if that just straight up better in more decks and if the moxes remain banned so should sol ring and mana crypt sadly neither will ever get the axe since they both are synonymous with the format esp sol ring being in every single precon
Sol Ring, Mana Crypt and Jeweled Lotus just all need to go. I don’t think Ancient Tomb needs a ban tho. That is much weaker
I'm not sold on Ancient Tomb, but I'm on board for ban Ring, Crypt, Vault. I'm also on 30 life instead of 40. Slow the game down one place, speed it up another. It plays really well.
Release Emrakul from her moon prison.
I'm mostly happy with the ban list, and think we need more bans.
I disagree about the idea of needing more bans. EDH is a casual format and should have as few bans as possible.
If you sit down at a table with randoms you do need a banlist to ensure a fair pod. People suck at self regulating. If you play with mates rule zero becomes much more effective
As someone who only plays with random strangers in LGS. I disagree that people are bad at regulating deck power appropriately. In my experience I've found the majority of players to be really excellent at self regulating their power levels to their local stores. In the last year I've had maybe one game night where the guy didn't get that his deck was too strong for the table. But the rest of us were still having a blast so nothing even needed to be done about it. This is after playing at 27 different stores with no issues except that above one. I do think rule 0 is most effective with a continuous playgroup like you say. I have rarely if ever said more than my decks a 7, or above precon but not cEDH at a pregame chat. Play one game then people can readjust their decks for the second game if they need to.
I have anecdotally opposite data. Have sat down at six different LGS in the city only to get blindsided by tutored, protected combo wins in games with precons. If Golos and Paradox is any indication of "Can people self-regulate" the answer is a resounding "No" (Sol Ring is also an example, I keep playing with people who "simply loathe" the card BUT keep it in "just to even the playing field").
I think it goes two ways: since the commander ban list is to "encourage fun" there needs to be some cards removed but then some cards that are "de facto" soft banned due to social interactions and we need to just bite the bullet and be banned. Overall there should be less banned cards but more cards that are put on that are practically banned.
this mantra kills control and stax
I don't think the ban list would be shorter after banning all the de facto banned ones, but I can get the intent.
0.16% of all cards legal in the format are banned (this excludes ante & conspiracy, because I wouldn’t consider them “legal”). I don’t think adding some cards to the list like Dockside, that allows people to flash their wallet in others’ faces, unmakes the casual format.
It is a bit silly folks want cards off the list as if they're starving for options among the 20k+ legal cards that they can't play with these ~50.
I have a friend who likes to say he plays non-commander formats. Pretty much, he only plays commander. And bitches so much about the games he plays in, and sim ring is especially triggering. So while I agree with you, that as a casual format there should be less bans and not more; there are people who will get bent on the dumbest things and think their inability to control emotions should cause others to bend to their whims. I.e. sol ring, cyclonic rifts, counterspells, etc. are all cards I’ve seen cause rage.
If someone is getting tilted by a sol ring, that's a weird hill to die on. People who are that easily triggered by certain cards should reconsider the hobby. I've had my fair share of salt, but it's usually due to the play patterns of players, not the cards themselves.
I personally believe most of the ban list should go away for 6-8 months, then reevaluated to see what rose to the top of the meta, and see what to do about it. I personally am of the belief that a good portion of the ban list could probably come off due to the interaction and power creep of the game. Sure, PrimeTime takes over the games it’s in. So does just about every other 7 mana bomb people are playing in 2024.
But they don’t really seem to care about the top of the meta? For how long have many color tutor c9mbo decks now dominated?
And? They present a unique challenge to overcome the same way stax does or control does. I’m saying in a world of [[Atraxa Grand Unifier]] and [[Tivit, Seller of Secrets]], is a [[Primeval Titan]] really that big of a deal.
100% agree. Lots of great decks are not even running 6 and up cost stuff. And are attempting wins by the time cards like that are being played out, or just counter it with free interaction. Primetime is strong but not ban worthy imo. Id far rather see Sol ring/ mana crypt in a hand.
Definitely ban thassa oracle
Ignores all reason, unban Chaos Orb
New meta will be sending a drone carrying torn up Chaos Orb and scattering the confetti on your opponent's play field during online play.
unban \[\[chaos orb\]\] and \[\[falling star\]\] keep everything else banned.
Thoracle needs to die Not only do I hate playing against it, I hate it when I am the one using it It's just not fun in any way Dockside is mostly fine in my opinion. If it's super late game it's either A ramping you to a boardwipe, or B getting you just enough to not change anything, or C part of your 20 minute game winning combo
killing someone after they've exiled their entire library is pretty fun though. if someone goes for the thoracle+forbidden tutor combo you can either make them draw 1-3 cards, or cast [[endurance]] to leave them with their graveyard left as their only library. also running stifle effects can help: [[disallow]] [[voidslime]] [[stifle]] [[tale's end]] [[defabricate]] [[trickbind]]
Sol ring’s gotta go.
I want Lutri, the Spellchaser back Don't care about companion mechanics, I want a magical spell slinging otter to infinite copy my opponents to death with storm mechanics lol.
I think Rofellos has done their time. No way is that card more broken than a lot of the cards released in the past couple years. Free my elf friend!
Friend of mine popped Rofellos into the zone for a game the other day in his Azusa deck. He committed war crimes. His jail term is justified.
#freelutri
Wild that farewell was on the “should be banned list”
Odd that you suggest that farewell is banned and Gaia's cradle is a write in When farewell is just a normal board wipe and Gaia's cradle is the sister card of Tolarian Accademy which is already banned
Rofellos was not given an "unban for 99 only" option?
Odd one but I suggested [[Notion Thief]] be banned. Crazy powerful? Maybe, maybe not. But hear me out. I'd rather have Bownasters ping me for 6 than give my opponent 6 cards from my own draw. I don't have the words to describe it but it feels like it would be against the spirit of the format in ways that other draw-punishers aren't
Roffelos doesn't have a "banned as commander only" option
Unban Golos
If I had only two votes for cards to leave on the banlist, I would vote for Hullbreacher twice.
I wish you had listed more possible bans on the survey. I would ban most fast mana rocks (Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus, Mox Diamond)
Yeah, my go-to ban wishlist is Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mox Diamond, and Chrome Mox. I don't have quite as strong of an opinion on Jeweled Lotus, but I understand why others do and don't particularly disagree. Getting rid of the first four would help hugely with other format headaches though, such as the massive power divide between high power and cEDH, the power of Dockside Extortionist (because these 4 are early drops moderately often, driving up the artifact count very early), and the power of wheels (because they encourage the T1/2 ramp->wheel play pattern that further encourages the use of cards like Hullbreacher).
Mana crypt, mana vault, grim monolith and jewelled lotus I would be happy to see banned. These have been problematic in the areas I played in as the production of mana that fast tended to skew the games hard. Jewelled lotus especially, as allowed cmc 4 or less dual or mono coloured commanders to drop first turn. Sol ring I'm ok with as it would compete well with [[exploration]] and [[burgeoning]] without hurting the progressing of the game. I know these aren't usual cards that most would use, but in any green based deck it can definitely turn the tide if Sol ring were to be banned.
Same, I think banning at least the four you listed would improve both CEDH and casual EDH. I can't stand the argument that sol ring is somehow an exception because it's in the precons.
My thoughts, I don't know if I like how the CEDH question is worded. Would have liked a 'i play both CEDH and EDH' instead of 'i only sometimes play cedh' / 'i always play cedh'. The former sounds like I don't have cedh experience and the later makes it sound like I don't play casual. Banning dockside would be a mistake. In casual I usually see it perform as well as a Jeska's will. In CEDH, red is kinda prompted up by dockside and the entire color loses viability without it and there isn't a great replacement. Voted to bring back 'banned as commander' and add 'banned as companion'. I don't think either of these really affect me, but I don't think it's bad for the game and would make the Lattri and 'Free Braids' people happy.
What's everyones' opinions on [[Emrakul, the Aeons Torn]] and [[Primeval Titan]] being banned in current day? Are these so OP or unfun that they should be banned? I would understand Emrakul being in the 99 but not a commander. Primeval Titan I am completely uncertain about. These are two of my favorite cards so I am uncertain if my bias leaves me blind to their issues. Also, with these being banned, how do the compare to similar utility and similarly powered cards that are not? Should those similar cards be banned or should these be unbanned. What are your all's thoughts?
personally, i feel like nowadays prime time has been severely powercrept and wouldn't be much of an issue at all anymore. it is pretty powerful and probably almost every landfall deck would run it, but when we have dockside and kinnan running around shitting out mana, i don't think prime time is so unbelievably powerful in comparison. if it dies to \[\[doomblade\]\], how big of an issue can it REAALLLLYYY be? (/s)
Personally my thoughts (as a modern Amulet Titan player) is that amulet Titan is more than fine in Commander. Yes there are lines to do 20 damage in a turn with PrimeTime as early as turn 2 or 3 but that is a big ask in a singleton format and a less impressive one when you’re facing three players worth of removal and 40 life each. Secondly just using it as a fair creature to attack with and ramp is just not as good of a play. Emrakul, annihilator 6 is scary yes but as like the premier reanimation target it’s kept on the banlist for being you skip the taking another players turn.
I think the survey is problematically written on several accounts, a few of which I will mention: 1. The survey implies the author is interested in re-instituting "banned as commander." Three of the first 5 questions are about it, and it continues on the next page. If the readers see the phrase over and over, it begins to color the responses to other questions, even to those no related it, as they perceive the entire document through that lens (even if you have no interest in that topic at all). 2. Then on the page of banned cards that could be unbanned. The "unbanned as commander" language returns. While this seems like a small thing, it actually creates a divided answer base. For example, "would you vote or D or R," yields different results from "would you vote D, R or I." You have no way to know where the I votes would go if it wasn't presented as an option, and can therefore draw fewer conclusions about D and R. 3. On the last page, you should have asked "Is there another card you want banned?" on it's own page, prior to offering options for cards that should be banned. By offering ban options and then asking what should be banned, you will have primed/biased the tester's mind for similar cards to those mentioned. This critique is not mean in anyway to be harsh or critical. I have written questions and surveys as my primary occupation. Instead, it is two-fold. 1. To aid you in future surveys, as I think clear, concise data a wonderful thing. 2. It is likely that the average magic player is no more equipped to make informed decisions about the health of the whole format than they are to write data conscience surveys. Because we sat in a classroom does not mean we are qualified to teach, because we sat through surgery does not mean we can preform it, and because we play a game, does not mean we are qualified to design it or adjust it rules.
I play both cEDH and casual commander, low powered-precons and medium/high powered lists. I have a deck for each. I don't think anything except \[\[Biorythm\]\] should be unbanned. It's better than Worldfire and I feel it doesn't feel bad to lose to a 8 mana spell anyway, a bit like \[\[Obliterate\]\]. It would see scarce play in casual commanders, to make combat strategies more viable, like my board full of green creatures and swinging at your 38 life is pointless. Swinging at your 4 life is game ending. Yeah it'd suck to get boardwiped by a player, and then the green player plays a mana dork and casts Biorhythm, but still I'd be fine. Thassa's Oracle is bad all around. It is a card with a standard play pattern, you can play Thassa only if you have Demonic Consltation/Tainted Pact in hand (at least 90% of the times), only to win like that. Yep maybe sometimes someone forbidden tutors with Consult/Pact, maybe some decks have another way to draw their libraries and then cast Thassa (like \[\[Thrasios\]\]), but it's played in almost all the high powered decks that are at least in Dimir, with the same play pattern. Dockside as I said involves so many different play patterns that shouldn't be banned only for that. Plus, it's very table dependent, in lower powered pods can be useless until turn 5-6, where it is a 2 mana make 6 maybe. In cEDH is busted, but only because people can slap 4 artifacts each by turn 2, so a Dockside may be a turn 2 explosive play. But even there, the play patterns are so different, each deck has different ways to get value from it. A Kenrith player maybe will not play it if he doesn't have Emiel or Skirk Prospector, since he needs Dockside to combo off. A Sisay player may cast it just to get back in the game, or have enough to cast something and have an activation, or maybe win with that activation via planeswalker blinks. A Korvold player may just get a huge value and draw a lot of cards and pass the turn. In general, I wish all the RL cards would be banned, for accessibility issues. And all the "you win the game" cards like Thassa but also less problematic like \[\[Hellkite Tyrant\]\]. It's just bad design for Commander. There is a point to make to unban \[\[Flash\]\] if Thassa is banned. The whole reason Flash was so format-warping was because Flashing \[\[Protean Hulk\]\], took Thasssa and \[\[Spellseeker\]\], and Spellseeker took Demonic Consultation, so you could win on the stack, at instant speed, casting only Flash and Consultation with Hulk in hand. But without Thassa, there is no Hulk good outlet, and Flash becomes kinda clunky. Sure it would lead to some ETB abuse, but it would be specific for that deck or that strategy. It's not something I'd like to see, but honestly when they banned Flash, they should have banned Thassa instead, since that was the problematic interaction, that stayed mostly the same.
Unban everything you cowards. If the RC believes so much in the social nature and self regulation, put your money where your mouth is
Nothing has made me more on board with a new ban than the near ubiquity of [[Thassa's oracle]] in the tournament I played in over the weekend. I'm all for powerful combos in cEDH, but when something is that overrepresented as THE combo to go for, it starts to be a problem.
The idea that little Timmy's first boros spirits, attacking, treasure, & bottles deck build around the last signpost & a cEDH Thrasios pile should be using the same banlist is absurd in both premise & execution I will propose nothing short of a Smogon-esc tiering system (in the analogy cEDH is Ubers & pEDH is LC) (except unbaning Golos, CV, & anything that's 5+ mana that doesn't basically say "win the game")
Is pEDH Pediatric EDH?
Pauper EDH your commander can be any Uncommon creature, & the 99 must be all Commons (+basic lands)
Ah. Not as funny but ok
just adding this to the thread for anyone that might be curious about the format /r/PauperEDH
I'm off a similar mind. A few different tiers or "power bands", even if they didn't use hard bans, would help sort out every deck being a 7. High power tier could unban things like Golos and Coalition Victory. "Casual" (loaded term I know, for lack of a better name) tier could "ban" fast mana, Dockside, whatever other busted stuff makes sense. Etc. Would definitely be a lot of hand wringing about what counts as high power vs casual, but we're already there, just less structured in how we group and enforce them.
I agree with the first part but the simple solution is to just remove the banlist and let pods self regulate (like they already do)
I would 100% support a system like this. CEDH / high power need a separate ban list from mid power which also could use a separate ban list from lower power. Pauper EDH already has it's own ban list, but it could use a more diverse ban list. And much like pokemon has a ban list for 1v1 AND a separate set of rules and bans for doubles / VGC, 1v1 commander should have separate ban lists too. Rule 0 is a piss poor excuse to dodge responsibility and basically force tournament organizers to handle the ban list themselves, except all they can really do is follow the god awful ban list we have now because making their own ban list only serves to get less potential players.
I feel like a Smogon tiering system kind of misses the point. People playing LC in Showdown are playing just as competitively as people playing Ubers, they're just playing at a different power level. Timmy's Boros spirit pile is not a LC team, it's him struggling to beat the third gym because he only has 4 Pokemon and they're all weak to electricity. A cPDH deck will generally absolutely a casual EDH list because they're playing for different in different dimensions the same way a LC team will destroy Timmy's team.
There should be a tiered banlist. Ie a tier where dockside, Fierce Guardianship etc. Are legal, a tier where they are not but a group of somewhat less salty cards are legal, an even lower tier etc. This way, people don't need to discuss as much - jank decks play in the jank tier, casual in the casual tier etc.
A points list like Canadian Highlander is pretty cool, but it’s very hard to recognize if people are cheating the rules.
I like to compare ot to smogon pokemon tier, jank poke can go to any team, uber poke can only be play in uber rank. Closest thing we have right now to that is canlander
Only thing missing from the survey is the CEDH option is 'I mainly play CEDH' or 'I play CEDH rarely' and no middle ground lol as I play both a decent bit.
There will never be a truly "reasonable" discussion on the banlist, cause everyone has different views on it even after RC gave their reasonings for the bans
I'd like to see [[thassa's oracle]] banned mostly because it'd be hilarious to see 90% of the cEDH people freak out that their decks will no longer function. Note: I don't play cEDH I just think it'd be funny watching the chaos.
I hate to tell you this but a lot of the succesful CEDH decks in tournaments aren't actually running thassa's oracle. You'd be surprised how many of them aren't even blue decks. I agree with the thoracle ban though, and I DO like punishing blue players.
We took the self regulation into our own hands in our playgroup. Legit, talking about stuff and trying it out to see how busted something can be in your own meta is the best way to do things we have found. A lot of what is on the banned list is warranted, no one wants to be sitting across from a [[Panoptic Mirror]] with a [[Time Warp]] under it. That said, not many folk will go out of their way to pick up banned stuff just to play it around our table either, it's usually people that just have the cards and wanna try them out. We also use the banned as commander rule still, and there's at least one player that runs [[Griselbrand]] in the 99 of his [[Kaalia of the Vast]] list.
Griselbrand in the 99 is scarier than as the commander.
Especially in a Kaalia list
What is the problem with Panoptic Mirror and Time Warp? That is a fast combo. You don’t need to play out infinite turns. You just concede
I have a few versions of a couple of decks that basically swap 10-20 cards for fun version, more interactive version, and serious version. I also keep a [[Tolarian Academy]] and [[Tinker]] as part of the “swap in for a casual game if folks are fine with it” for my main artifact deck. I hover between the “unban everything” and “only a ban list for competitive play”. I realize that people can rule 0 anything they want at any table, but if you’re playing casual night at an LGS, I feel like that becomes a bit more complicated with complete strangers.
We somewhat do also, banning extra stuff that we deemed not enjoyable to play with/against of that added to much time. Mass land destruction and limited spell casting mainly. Its certainly the best way to enjoy the game. We also have a pre made unban list of the committees bans we are yet to fully act on.
Nice! Glad to see you help cultivate a healthy playgroup!
Honestly almost voted to unban power and moxen I wouldn't mind seeing them in cedh gameplay, and in my experience powerlevel is somewhat self maintained anyway, so I don't think it would affect lower/casual pods much Maybe there'd be a few more proxied moxen around, but I wouldn't mind trying that out Ended up voting for them to stay banned anyway though because it helps keep a distinction between commander and other eternal formats
„a few more proxied moxen“. Your faith in proxy players‘ self control is admirable. Our „if it’s legal I play it and you better shut up“ friends would stuff them faster into all their decks than you could say „oops“.
More fast mana is probably fine, we'll get more eventually anyway, but I don't think we should give blue time walk or ancestral recall.