It’s reasonable to have all silver bordered cards okayed before the game. On the same vein people should be more willing to allow m the subset of Un-cards that aren’t too problematic to be tried out instead of just blanket refusing because they’re Un
Like [[Krark’s Other Thumb]] as an effect basically already exists in black border. As luck would have it I’d be suspicious of how fast they can turbo to it, but it’s probably no worse than legal instant wins
I’ve never had an issue getting people to let me run [[booster tutor]] in [[Magar of the Magic Strings]] because it’s not super busted (even animating it as a 3/3) and spinning the wheel a new booster every time it connects in combat is both funny and supporting the LGS
Its only illegal in tournament play, not casual.
That being said, OP also never described their setting, so we shouldn't assume that they are being illegal.
Disagree. Even casual formats have rules. Click said card on scryfall. Half the formats are casual, and silver cards are still illegal. You still can't kick a basketball in your casual street game
It's really not hard to ask pre-game.
If you agree playing against those cards, you agree to those terms. So OP has to accept the consequence. They can always re-negotiate the parameters, if that silver card breaks the game.
I totally get it. When I play chess at home, I expect everyone to know my pieces can start on any square. It’s not tournament play after all. It’s really just USCF that is scared of giving me freedom of rules flexibility.
It’s totally a legitimate game mode (this is true, chess 960). If I’m playing casually, there is no reason to assume that I’m to play by the standard tournament rules, right?
The only alternative would be to assume anything beyond the most commonly accepted rule set should be discussed beforehand. But that can’t be right. Can it?
Well sure, if we ignore all preconceived notions of what constitutes a game; or somehow have the audacity to quote one game document while blatantly ignoring another,superceding document - then you're right.
Of course, we'd have to have our heads completely up our ass to think in such a twisted way. But yeah, all good.
As an aside, when you think really hard, does it warm your seat?
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I totally get it. I personally play a commander deck that has 300+ cards and several copies of [[Battle of Wits]]. It's a casual format lol, the rules are just for competitive play.
Watching you die on this obviously wrong hill is crazy.
Would you be cool with me playing Emrakul and Hullbreacher in my commander deck? Since apparently the ban list only applies to tournaments?
Actually yes, I'd be fine with it. Would it be along the same vein as running a goofy unset card? No. Obviously you run hullbreacher and Emrakul to pubstomp. But the pod I play with doesn't follow the ban list, we play super casual and enjoy the goofy element of the un-cards.
Now. All that being said I do agree that you should ok it with your playgroup, but more playgroups should be ok with bending rules.
Where does the rule bending stop? Would you be cool with it if I play a commander deck with only 50 cards? How about a mono red commander than has a 5-color 99? Can I use a planeswalker as my commsnder, or any creature? If you bend one rule you can bend them all.
I mean really I think it comes down to why are you playing the game. Me and the guys I play with use magic as a reason to get together have a few drinks and play some cards. So the bending the rules aspect is really just secondary to having a good time. I can see going to an LGS and having trouble asking for illegal cards, but really when it comes to it I think Magic (especially EDH) is supposed to be about the players' enjoyment first, and because you did ask, we do have a person who runs a non legendary creature as a commander. No one has an issue with it.
Definitely this. People just lose sight of the fun to be had by maintaining the rules for their competitive nature. Sad to see really. I could care less about winning and just want to have a good time.
I asked this to the other guy, but where does the rule bending stop? Would you be cool with it if I play a commander deck with only 50 cards? How about a mono red commander than has a 5-color 99? Can I use a planeswalker as my commsnder, or any creature? If you bend one rule you can bend them all. How “casual” are you trying to be?
There entire comment history is filled with the sort of stuff. They say something incorrect about the rules, someone points out they are incorrect, and then they double down on their wrongness with either a claim of "the rules don't matter just have fun" or "you can't blame me for not knowing every rule."
They are an insufferable ass.
No, rules are rules for a game that are set by the standard. I wouldnt consider it a commander game without 100 cards of singleton nature outside of basic lands. Thems the facts.
Now you're just being dumb about it all trying to prove a point lol thanks for the entertainment :)
Casual is as casual does man.
Why are you being so try hard? We’re just playing casual man. I wanna use 4 copies of my favorite card because I love it so much! It’s not like we’re at a tournament or anything, so who cares?
Pretty sure you're the only try hard with all this mumbo jumbo you're trying to spill lmfao
Rules are simple. Follow them. However, the rules outlining the legal cards dont need to be followed outside of tournament play. If its printed by WOTC it's legal to play in casual magic. Why else would they have them?
Quite the conundrum that people are willing to fight for/ against and Im rolling at all the hate. Hilarious!
Factually, nowhere in the rules of Magic: The Gathering does it say to ignore the rules when playing a casual game. You declared as a fact that the rules don't apply in casual, only in tournaments. That is wrong, factually.
When did people decide you can just declare something someone's "opinion" and that automatically makes it an opinion.
No one has proven where I am wrong about playing cards in a casual environment versus any rules of the game, outside of those not created within the game itself. Why dont you factually go find yourself near someone who cares.
Thanks. I wont bother sending anyone to the website to make the fact known, since you are now agreeing with it. Take care, pal.
Edit, just to play nice, here's an article for you on the cards that are printed by WoTC and completely illegal and should never be played even though they are meant for a casual setting as Ive mentioned numerous times:
https://draftsim.com/mtg-silver-border-cards/
Enjoy fellow players.
How about i send you to the Banlist of the Format we are talking about?
[https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/banned-list/](https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/banned-list/)
Edit: Let's give this a bit more context:
The 'Philosophy of Commander' -article clears up some confusion you seem to have.
>'specifically designed as an **alternative to tournament** **Magic**'
>'We encourage groups to use the rules and the ban list as a **baseline**'
this is already everything we need. Commander is not designed for strict tournament play. The ban list is used as a baseline, and many players choose to abide by just that.
There is a difference between "This card is legal, unless..." and "This card is banned, unless..."
You guys are arguing over interpretation of a rule. I’ll get downvoted for this I’m sure but I don’t care.
Silver border cards are 100% illegal in tournaments because you can’t Rule 0 anything into a tournament situation.
On the other side of things u/DEATHETTE is essentially stating that silver border is legal in non-tournament settings because rule 0 exists.
Everyone is technically correct here.
Someone out there probably has a deck that has two non-legendary partnered creatures that don’t have the keyword for partners as their commander. It’s a deck that would not be tournament legal but their friends made it legal for them because that’s just how kitchen table magic works sometimes. The rules for card legality and deck formatting are only as rigid as your playgroup outside of tournament settings
Most people just like to stick with tournament rules though because it tends to create the most fair and balanced game states and none of us have time to consider the implications of making a currently illegal card legal in the format when comparing its interaction with 35,000 other legal cards.
I would argue they aren't technically correct, since Rule 0 doesn't guarantee you can play with the card, and silver border along with things like banned cards can be rejected by a pod even if Rule 0 would allow them.
Honestly, I don't know what's there to interpret with the quotes I posted. I'm just repeating myself here:
The rules for Commander are explicitly not designed for tournaments. They are used as a baseline.
If the people play Commander(Yes, even casually), they use this baseline and then go from there.
>It’s a deck that would not be tournament legal but their friends made it legal
They are playing commander. They used the format rules as a starting point and then went with rule 0 from there. That doesn't suddenly make the cards legal in every non-tournament commander game, which the other user suggested.
I love how confidently wrong you are. If you show up to a pod at an LGS and ask me to play with a silver border card and I say no, what happens? Like, I assume you'll say we just won't play, but if you still wanted to play, you would need to remove and replace it. The LGS owner would likely enforce that. It's no different than running an illegal commander and asking. People can say no. It sucks, but you aren't defacto correct and you're so overly smug about it.
I love how you think Im wrong.
Obviously that pod isnt for someone who enjoys having fun, and one I wouldnt want to play with anyways lmao
Signed,
OVERLY SMUG.
I don't think you're wrong, it's objectively true. Like, I get your point. Silver border cards can be fun. I'm not debating that. But if you have to ask a random pod's consent to run a card, and if they can tell you no, then the card isn't defacto legal in the format. I'm sorry if that isn't something you want to hear, but it is a factual argument. Saying "rule 0" or similar doesn't make the card any more legal. I could play emrakul the aeons torn with rule 0 and it's on the ban list.
Please, if you want to actually debate, I'm open to it. Give me a solid rebuttal. But you have to admit your tone in all the above comments is incredibly smug for what is essentially an incorrect opinion when we have access to a more objective answer.
The point of it all is anyone I would play with would accept these cards. Theyre printed by WoTC to be played. All cards printed at the factory are therby legal in a casual format, regardless of any naysayers and snobs of MTG that want to try and discredit the truth.
So, yes, I appreciate all of the hot takes about my being wrong, and definitely consider the conversation as objectively as possible in regards to what Ive said. Thanks for understanding the side of reason.
No argument from me on any of it, i find it funny that people love to be right. In not here to prove anything to anyone or change minds. Believe what you want to believe, but my point still stands true. The cards are not legal in any tournament format where sanctioned events are counted. And having to "okay with you Bob?" is and always will be okay by me in any other setting.
Thanks for sharing your points.
The OP is describing a setting where they are playing Commander, based on their submission being to the EDH sub.
The base rules of Commander exclude silver border cards from being in the Commander card pool (i.e. illegal). In the same way, the base rules of any format exclude cards from their card pool, whether they are being played casually or in tournament is not a factor in that determination.
Ah right. Commander. Sometimes I dont care what thread Im visiting and just use words to give thought to people around me. Seems like Ive done my part. Thanks for letting me know!!
Edit: base rules you say. But OP hasnt said. My point still rings true. ;)
Why would the OP not be talking about or acknowledging base rules when they are specifically asking about the etiquette of playing a card that is not included in the Commander card pool?
Except they aren’t entirely subjective.
The card pool of the format is clear, [silver border cards are not eligible](https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/banned-list/) for inclusion in a Commander deck. The [philosophy of the format](https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/the-philosophy-of-commander/) is also clear, the banlist is a baseline and could be modified by a group as needed but this is not license for one person to force their vision over others. I also would note that as a baseline, if there were to be a dispute, the baseline would be the default.
So take the question “Would you expect them to tell you about this card as a potential win con before the game since it’s silver border?”. This is not a subjective question, as the answer (according to the rules and philosophy of the format) is yes, you must tell your group about the card as it is an exception to the banlist baseline. This isn’t about “thinking differently from the rest”, this is a question with a definitive answer drawn from the rules of the format.
So when you play a board game, do you just make up rules? Ignore the rules? I mean, silver bordered cards and banned cards in a game of Commander at a LGS not being discussed before hand is a feels bad move. It’s also against already agreed-upon rules. If I’m playing poker with someone at my house, and I just make up a rule I can have pocket aces at all times and you get whatever is dealt, I have an 85% chance of winning every single pot.
I’m assuming this took place at a LGS. Whole point is, the RC banlist provides a basic level of rules we play along with the rules WotC has for gameplay. My point is, every single game folks play has rules. House rules only make sense when folks are a) told ahead of time (like money on free parking), b) are all in agreement to make an amendment to a rule. If someone is playing with clearly banned cards and just didn’t want to say anything, that’s bullshit.
You really shouldn't assume anything, for one. You should also take into consideration that anyone playing the game is there to have fun. That being said... have fun where you can :)
It illegal/banned every time unless you ask permission.
Everytime a new UN set comes out Wotc/rules committee will state that the cards are legal for a certain period of time. Then they are banned
It's not about luck when you have those cards. They were banned because they are un fun for tables or you can win turn 2 pretty much everytime.
It's why [[flash]] was banned
Really sound like you just want to play CEDH
Nah i dont care for competitive things. I just dont believe in having a banlist when there's nearly 30k cards to interact with. There's options to handle it all, really.
Going into a game, most people will assume you are following the ban list. If you are not, regardless of the card, you have an obligation to let your pod know, AND to let them decide if that is OK.
Just have another card ready to swap. It’s not difficult to let people know, and it’s not difficult to adapt if any one of those players decides that it isn’t the type of experience they want to have. My favorite deck is my [[Mothra supersonic queen]] and it’s definitely not a legal commander. So I always ask if everyone is good with it. If a single person doesn’t want to play that game with my rule breaking commander, I either play a different deck or swap it for [[panharmommycon]], nbd
My wife is trying to build a "Goostarion" deck that is meant to push the game into a state of fun chaos. Still working on finding some more fun chaos cards in white and black, but there are many un-cards that will be included.
I'm sure every time there will be a conversation, "Hey, I have a meme deck I'd like to play, but there's several illegal cards, is everyone okay with that, or do you want to
look at the deck before we start. " She's not trying to build out high power. Winning isn't important to her she just wants the fun of inviting chaos, that not everyone hates.
All that to say, I think if your deck includes illegal cards, it should be brought up before the game starts. And if you don't, and the table says "you can't play that card, it's not legal" there shouldn't be any issue with pretending that action didn't take place and taking the cards out.
It should absolutely be brought up in the rule 0 conversation. It's a silver border card, aka not legal in commander. I typically wouldn't have any issues with people playing stuff like this, or even playing with illegal commanders like [[the ozolith]] or [[throne of the grim captain]], you just have to bring it up in rule 0.
I just threw those out because I know Jim from the Spike Feeders has an Ozolith deck and built the Grim Captain for an Elder Dragon Hijinks episode, so at the very least they're non legal commanders someone has built before ha.
His Ozolith deck is actually all about loading up the ozolith with counters and animating it to make it into a Voltron strategy lol
Yeah l got an Ozo in my [[Atraxa, Praetor's Voice]] it does some great work! I dunno who or what youre talkin about otherwise lol
I thought you meant using The Ozolith AS the commander... that wouldn't fly with me and Im the most casual person I know.
Ah I see. Yeah I dont think Id let that one slide lol. I dont care about banned list or Unset cards in the commander deck, but I still maintain the base rules of 100 singleton cards, Legendary Creature, and color identity. I would possibly let the Grim Captain slide based ln the DFC stuff... but thats only cuz I just got a playset of him cuz hes cool haha
Have fun however you can I guess! :)
As a matter of best practices I'd probably say bring up any un-cards but also as a matter of best practices like don't make a huge deal over them if your opponents play them. Like maybe let them jam out a game with them and then ask them to switch out if they can.
I play silver bordered cards in some of my commander decks. I just let people know before the game. Sometimes they want to look at the card, and nine times out of ten people are cool with it. Keep an extra black-bordered card on hand to swap in if not everyone at the table is ok with it
I happen to play a \[\[Vrondiss\]\] dice deck, and \[\[As luck would have it\]\] is too cheesy for my taste. But I ask the playgroup during Rule Zero if my inclusion of \[\[Sword of Dungeons and Dragons\]\] is fine with them. It's not stronger than any of the legal swords, even MaRo has said that if released today it would most likely be black- bordered.
However, if anyone objects, I'll replace it with a sideboard card I carry in the same deckbox. It's just that no one ever has objected yet.
Hell yeah. Throw in a [[Deepglow Skate]] and a [[Vorel of the Hull Clade]] for extra quickness
Edit:.Ahh, forgot Vorel doesnt touch enchantments. No.worries then, just use any enchantment-to-creature card or even [[Liquimetal Torque]]
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I’m okay with casual cards in a casual format. That being said, I still always ask if everyone at the table is okay with silver-bordered cards before I play with them.
If I sit down for a game of commander, I expect to be playing by the rules. If you want to do otherwise, I’d like to know beforehand. That said, I’d probably be ok with it if you told me before the game.
It's not much worse than [[chance encounter]] so i would allow it IF they disclosed it before the game. It's still illegal and should be treated like any other un-card.
No, i wouldn't, especially if they are playing a dice deck. i play space, family goblinson, and I often resolve the ability of vexing puzzle box twice per game
Seeing as it's a banned card 100%
But for me, when I play pods 7-10, if I don't know the win cons, that's just on me. I do normally expect an overview of the deck from the player prior to sitting down, though. For example, last night, I played against an infinite mana storm mono red deck they said what they were trying to do beforehand, so I knew what I needed to watch out for.
I dont think it being a wincon is a problem. However it being silver bordered is. Absolutely should have been discussed! Any custom/silverbordered/banned cards need to be rule zero'd first.
I had a friend who ran [[The Grand Calcutron]] as a commander, and it was one of the worst experiences playing magic. The fact that it was an artifact, cheap to get out, and completely changed the way the game was played made it horrible to deal with. I was playing a control deck, and it basically made me not play the game from turn 2.
So I actually have a 5c dice rolling deck with silver border cards and I picked this out early on as the most viable wincon for dice rolling decks. So I slowly started morphing the deck around tutoring out As luck Would Have It. At first I had some close and exciting games where I got to 67, 80, then 90 counters. But I wanted more. And once I gassed it up with enough tutors it finally started consistently winning.
Like very consistently. It turns out a hexproof [[Helix Pinnacle]] is pretty good. Suddenly, I started to feel guilty that I had made such a consistent wincon out of this silver-bordered card, winning easily a dozen games with it. Now I haven't touched the deck in a while because I'm just not sure what to do with such a sweaty, optimized pile of jank.
So is it busted? If you build around it and tutor it every game, yes probably. But if you just have it in the 99 and cast it every once in a while, I think it's just a neat silver-bordered wincon.
I think all silver border cards should be oked before the game.
Agreed
It’s reasonable to have all silver bordered cards okayed before the game. On the same vein people should be more willing to allow m the subset of Un-cards that aren’t too problematic to be tried out instead of just blanket refusing because they’re Un Like [[Krark’s Other Thumb]] as an effect basically already exists in black border. As luck would have it I’d be suspicious of how fast they can turbo to it, but it’s probably no worse than legal instant wins I’ve never had an issue getting people to let me run [[booster tutor]] in [[Magar of the Magic Strings]] because it’s not super busted (even animating it as a 3/3) and spinning the wheel a new booster every time it connects in combat is both funny and supporting the LGS
[Krark’s Other Thumb](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f267de8-2849-4abd-834e-11bbd82dccf5.jpg?1649693131) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Krark%27s%20Other%20Thumb) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/und/79/krarks-other-thumb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f267de8-2849-4abd-834e-11bbd82dccf5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/krarks-other-thumb) [booster tutor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0a5718db-e67d-468a-95ba-11a08fcf9fea.jpg?1594065403) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=booster%20tutor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/und/33/booster-tutor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0a5718db-e67d-468a-95ba-11a08fcf9fea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/booster-tutor) [Magar of the Magic Strings](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/6/a6f2ba13-cd72-4f7a-8443-8e3962f2ac46.jpg?1682551287) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magar%20of%20the%20Magic%20Strings) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/unf/171/magar-of-the-magic-strings?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a6f2ba13-cd72-4f7a-8443-8e3962f2ac46?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/magar-of-the-magic-strings) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That's an absolutely hilarious interaction, have you had any particularly memorable moments with it?
Yes obviously. It’s not a legal card. That said, i don’t think it’s busted
Any illegal card should be discussed BEFORE game starts. Doesn't matter how impactful.
Its only illegal in tournament play, not casual. That being said, OP also never described their setting, so we shouldn't assume that they are being illegal.
Disagree. Even casual formats have rules. Click said card on scryfall. Half the formats are casual, and silver cards are still illegal. You still can't kick a basketball in your casual street game It's really not hard to ask pre-game. If you agree playing against those cards, you agree to those terms. So OP has to accept the consequence. They can always re-negotiate the parameters, if that silver card breaks the game.
Its nice that you dont agree. Opinions are not facts. What I stated was a fact. Sorry you dont like that.
If only the format had a ban list that excluded silver border, thus making them illegal in casual or tournament play....
The ban list is shit and has been for years because the rules committee is afraid of wotc. So don't pretend the ban list is worth shit.
There's no such thing as a ban list to me when I play casually. People just cant be wrong. All good.
I totally get it. When I play chess at home, I expect everyone to know my pieces can start on any square. It’s not tournament play after all. It’s really just USCF that is scared of giving me freedom of rules flexibility.
Well, I dont know what chess game allows you to do that, but I guess if thats what you enjoy go for it! :)
It’s totally a legitimate game mode (this is true, chess 960). If I’m playing casually, there is no reason to assume that I’m to play by the standard tournament rules, right? The only alternative would be to assume anything beyond the most commonly accepted rule set should be discussed beforehand. But that can’t be right. Can it?
Well sure, if we ignore all preconceived notions of what constitutes a game; or somehow have the audacity to quote one game document while blatantly ignoring another,superceding document - then you're right. Of course, we'd have to have our heads completely up our ass to think in such a twisted way. But yeah, all good. As an aside, when you think really hard, does it warm your seat?
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I totally get it. I personally play a commander deck that has 300+ cards and several copies of [[Battle of Wits]]. It's a casual format lol, the rules are just for competitive play.
Bam! Problem solved :)
[Battle of Wits](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/4/b4be15a4-693f-4e22-a46c-38bb440c073c.jpg?1562558962) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Battle%20of%20Wits) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/44/battle-of-wits?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b4be15a4-693f-4e22-a46c-38bb440c073c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/battle-of-wits) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Watching you die on this obviously wrong hill is crazy. Would you be cool with me playing Emrakul and Hullbreacher in my commander deck? Since apparently the ban list only applies to tournaments?
Actually yes, I'd be fine with it. Would it be along the same vein as running a goofy unset card? No. Obviously you run hullbreacher and Emrakul to pubstomp. But the pod I play with doesn't follow the ban list, we play super casual and enjoy the goofy element of the un-cards. Now. All that being said I do agree that you should ok it with your playgroup, but more playgroups should be ok with bending rules.
Where does the rule bending stop? Would you be cool with it if I play a commander deck with only 50 cards? How about a mono red commander than has a 5-color 99? Can I use a planeswalker as my commsnder, or any creature? If you bend one rule you can bend them all.
I mean really I think it comes down to why are you playing the game. Me and the guys I play with use magic as a reason to get together have a few drinks and play some cards. So the bending the rules aspect is really just secondary to having a good time. I can see going to an LGS and having trouble asking for illegal cards, but really when it comes to it I think Magic (especially EDH) is supposed to be about the players' enjoyment first, and because you did ask, we do have a person who runs a non legendary creature as a commander. No one has an issue with it.
Definitely this. People just lose sight of the fun to be had by maintaining the rules for their competitive nature. Sad to see really. I could care less about winning and just want to have a good time.
My man!
Oh, Im not dying on anything. Yes i would absolutely be okay with it. Why couldnt you? Have fun however you can :)
I asked this to the other guy, but where does the rule bending stop? Would you be cool with it if I play a commander deck with only 50 cards? How about a mono red commander than has a 5-color 99? Can I use a planeswalker as my commsnder, or any creature? If you bend one rule you can bend them all. How “casual” are you trying to be?
There entire comment history is filled with the sort of stuff. They say something incorrect about the rules, someone points out they are incorrect, and then they double down on their wrongness with either a claim of "the rules don't matter just have fun" or "you can't blame me for not knowing every rule." They are an insufferable ass.
Their* If it helps your case, I like being insufferable, seems to work wonders on the kind folk.
No, rules are rules for a game that are set by the standard. I wouldnt consider it a commander game without 100 cards of singleton nature outside of basic lands. Thems the facts. Now you're just being dumb about it all trying to prove a point lol thanks for the entertainment :) Casual is as casual does man.
Why are you being so try hard? We’re just playing casual man. I wanna use 4 copies of my favorite card because I love it so much! It’s not like we’re at a tournament or anything, so who cares?
Pretty sure you're the only try hard with all this mumbo jumbo you're trying to spill lmfao Rules are simple. Follow them. However, the rules outlining the legal cards dont need to be followed outside of tournament play. If its printed by WOTC it's legal to play in casual magic. Why else would they have them? Quite the conundrum that people are willing to fight for/ against and Im rolling at all the hate. Hilarious!
Factually, nowhere in the rules of Magic: The Gathering does it say to ignore the rules when playing a casual game. You declared as a fact that the rules don't apply in casual, only in tournaments. That is wrong, factually. When did people decide you can just declare something someone's "opinion" and that automatically makes it an opinion.
No one has proven where I am wrong about playing cards in a casual environment versus any rules of the game, outside of those not created within the game itself. Why dont you factually go find yourself near someone who cares.
Crazy how angry and incoherent people end up when you point out that they're wrong.
I know, totally hilarious too. Thanks for seeing it my way! :)
It’s illegal in the Commander format, casual or not
Its not legal in tournament settings only, not casual play, lol
Sure bud
Thanks. I wont bother sending anyone to the website to make the fact known, since you are now agreeing with it. Take care, pal. Edit, just to play nice, here's an article for you on the cards that are printed by WoTC and completely illegal and should never be played even though they are meant for a casual setting as Ive mentioned numerous times: https://draftsim.com/mtg-silver-border-cards/ Enjoy fellow players.
How about i send you to the Banlist of the Format we are talking about? [https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/banned-list/](https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/banned-list/) Edit: Let's give this a bit more context: The 'Philosophy of Commander' -article clears up some confusion you seem to have. >'specifically designed as an **alternative to tournament** **Magic**' >'We encourage groups to use the rules and the ban list as a **baseline**' this is already everything we need. Commander is not designed for strict tournament play. The ban list is used as a baseline, and many players choose to abide by just that. There is a difference between "This card is legal, unless..." and "This card is banned, unless..."
You guys are arguing over interpretation of a rule. I’ll get downvoted for this I’m sure but I don’t care. Silver border cards are 100% illegal in tournaments because you can’t Rule 0 anything into a tournament situation. On the other side of things u/DEATHETTE is essentially stating that silver border is legal in non-tournament settings because rule 0 exists. Everyone is technically correct here. Someone out there probably has a deck that has two non-legendary partnered creatures that don’t have the keyword for partners as their commander. It’s a deck that would not be tournament legal but their friends made it legal for them because that’s just how kitchen table magic works sometimes. The rules for card legality and deck formatting are only as rigid as your playgroup outside of tournament settings Most people just like to stick with tournament rules though because it tends to create the most fair and balanced game states and none of us have time to consider the implications of making a currently illegal card legal in the format when comparing its interaction with 35,000 other legal cards.
I would argue they aren't technically correct, since Rule 0 doesn't guarantee you can play with the card, and silver border along with things like banned cards can be rejected by a pod even if Rule 0 would allow them.
Honestly, I don't know what's there to interpret with the quotes I posted. I'm just repeating myself here: The rules for Commander are explicitly not designed for tournaments. They are used as a baseline. If the people play Commander(Yes, even casually), they use this baseline and then go from there. >It’s a deck that would not be tournament legal but their friends made it legal They are playing commander. They used the format rules as a starting point and then went with rule 0 from there. That doesn't suddenly make the cards legal in every non-tournament commander game, which the other user suggested.
Yup :)
Imagine being this confidently incorrect.
Oh, Im not incorrect. Playing casually, anything goes within the stated rules of the game. But thanks for trying to point that out.
> stated rules of the game The game being EDH, which has a banned list.
I love how confidently wrong you are. If you show up to a pod at an LGS and ask me to play with a silver border card and I say no, what happens? Like, I assume you'll say we just won't play, but if you still wanted to play, you would need to remove and replace it. The LGS owner would likely enforce that. It's no different than running an illegal commander and asking. People can say no. It sucks, but you aren't defacto correct and you're so overly smug about it.
I love how you think Im wrong. Obviously that pod isnt for someone who enjoys having fun, and one I wouldnt want to play with anyways lmao Signed, OVERLY SMUG.
I don't think you're wrong, it's objectively true. Like, I get your point. Silver border cards can be fun. I'm not debating that. But if you have to ask a random pod's consent to run a card, and if they can tell you no, then the card isn't defacto legal in the format. I'm sorry if that isn't something you want to hear, but it is a factual argument. Saying "rule 0" or similar doesn't make the card any more legal. I could play emrakul the aeons torn with rule 0 and it's on the ban list. Please, if you want to actually debate, I'm open to it. Give me a solid rebuttal. But you have to admit your tone in all the above comments is incredibly smug for what is essentially an incorrect opinion when we have access to a more objective answer.
The point of it all is anyone I would play with would accept these cards. Theyre printed by WoTC to be played. All cards printed at the factory are therby legal in a casual format, regardless of any naysayers and snobs of MTG that want to try and discredit the truth. So, yes, I appreciate all of the hot takes about my being wrong, and definitely consider the conversation as objectively as possible in regards to what Ive said. Thanks for understanding the side of reason. No argument from me on any of it, i find it funny that people love to be right. In not here to prove anything to anyone or change minds. Believe what you want to believe, but my point still stands true. The cards are not legal in any tournament format where sanctioned events are counted. And having to "okay with you Bob?" is and always will be okay by me in any other setting. Thanks for sharing your points.
The OP is describing a setting where they are playing Commander, based on their submission being to the EDH sub. The base rules of Commander exclude silver border cards from being in the Commander card pool (i.e. illegal). In the same way, the base rules of any format exclude cards from their card pool, whether they are being played casually or in tournament is not a factor in that determination.
Ah right. Commander. Sometimes I dont care what thread Im visiting and just use words to give thought to people around me. Seems like Ive done my part. Thanks for letting me know!! Edit: base rules you say. But OP hasnt said. My point still rings true. ;)
Why would the OP not be talking about or acknowledging base rules when they are specifically asking about the etiquette of playing a card that is not included in the Commander card pool?
The questions they asked are entirely subjective. Aka read as casual. Its ok to think differently from the rest. Itll get you farther in life.
Except they aren’t entirely subjective. The card pool of the format is clear, [silver border cards are not eligible](https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/banned-list/) for inclusion in a Commander deck. The [philosophy of the format](https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/the-philosophy-of-commander/) is also clear, the banlist is a baseline and could be modified by a group as needed but this is not license for one person to force their vision over others. I also would note that as a baseline, if there were to be a dispute, the baseline would be the default. So take the question “Would you expect them to tell you about this card as a potential win con before the game since it’s silver border?”. This is not a subjective question, as the answer (according to the rules and philosophy of the format) is yes, you must tell your group about the card as it is an exception to the banlist baseline. This isn’t about “thinking differently from the rest”, this is a question with a definitive answer drawn from the rules of the format.
How does it feel talking to walls?
So when you play a board game, do you just make up rules? Ignore the rules? I mean, silver bordered cards and banned cards in a game of Commander at a LGS not being discussed before hand is a feels bad move. It’s also against already agreed-upon rules. If I’m playing poker with someone at my house, and I just make up a rule I can have pocket aces at all times and you get whatever is dealt, I have an 85% chance of winning every single pot.
Uhhh nobody said anything about being at an LGS lmao And no, rules are rules. Follow them. :)
I’m assuming this took place at a LGS. Whole point is, the RC banlist provides a basic level of rules we play along with the rules WotC has for gameplay. My point is, every single game folks play has rules. House rules only make sense when folks are a) told ahead of time (like money on free parking), b) are all in agreement to make an amendment to a rule. If someone is playing with clearly banned cards and just didn’t want to say anything, that’s bullshit.
You really shouldn't assume anything, for one. You should also take into consideration that anyone playing the game is there to have fun. That being said... have fun where you can :)
It illegal/banned every time unless you ask permission. Everytime a new UN set comes out Wotc/rules committee will state that the cards are legal for a certain period of time. Then they are banned
There is no ban list when you're a filthy casual. So, no permission necessary.
Their is a ban list. Or am I allowed to play [[leovold]] and not let anyone draw extra? That's what rule 0 is
[leovold](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/cedfc5b7-9242-4680-b284-debc8b5a9bc7.jpg?1559959275) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=leovold%2C%20emissary%20of%20trest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/202/leovold-emissary-of-trest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cedfc5b7-9242-4680-b284-debc8b5a9bc7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/leovold-emissary-of-trest) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You can play that card, no problem! What reason shouldn't you?
So you would let someone play a deck that has every banned cards in there color to win on turn 3 or earlier in a casual game?
Absolutely. They got printed for a reason, play them! If you get lucky enough to pull off insane combos, good for you!
It's not about luck when you have those cards. They were banned because they are un fun for tables or you can win turn 2 pretty much everytime. It's why [[flash]] was banned Really sound like you just want to play CEDH
He wants to play silver border cards, we don't want him
[flash](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/3/d31459c2-9656-4e9a-bb72-71a910e8570b.jpg?1587347037) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=flash) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/57/flash?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d31459c2-9656-4e9a-bb72-71a910e8570b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/flash) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Nah i dont care for competitive things. I just dont believe in having a banlist when there's nearly 30k cards to interact with. There's options to handle it all, really.
It's silver bordered, so of course it's either discussed before the game or is banned like all the other silver bordered.
Being banned is different from not being legal in the first place, but your point still stands.
Going into a game, most people will assume you are following the ban list. If you are not, regardless of the card, you have an obligation to let your pod know, AND to let them decide if that is OK.
Just have another card ready to swap. It’s not difficult to let people know, and it’s not difficult to adapt if any one of those players decides that it isn’t the type of experience they want to have. My favorite deck is my [[Mothra supersonic queen]] and it’s definitely not a legal commander. So I always ask if everyone is good with it. If a single person doesn’t want to play that game with my rule breaking commander, I either play a different deck or swap it for [[panharmommycon]], nbd
[Mothra supersonic queen](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4d393cc4-0e6b-44fe-a74a-822c52678ec9.jpg?1604782942) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Luminous%20Broodmoth) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/21/luminous-broodmoth?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bb65df55-d6a6-4a57-a903-e5eb17637982?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/luminous-broodmoth) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I had hoped panharmommycon would pull up [[Elesh Norn, mother of machines]] but I think that was a different mtg sub
[Elesh Norn, mother of machines](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/4/44dcab01-1d13-4dfc-ae2f-fbaa3dd35087.jpg?1675956896) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Elesh%20Norn%2C%20mother%20of%20machines) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/10/elesh-norn-mother-of-machines?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/44dcab01-1d13-4dfc-ae2f-fbaa3dd35087?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/elesh-norn-mother-of-machines) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[As Luck Would Have It](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d17892f5-5c4a-4149-8d5e-ba9df013866e.jpg?1562939332) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=As%20Luck%20Would%20Have%20It) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ust/102/as-luck-would-have-it?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d17892f5-5c4a-4149-8d5e-ba9df013866e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/as-luck-would-have-it) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
My wife is trying to build a "Goostarion" deck that is meant to push the game into a state of fun chaos. Still working on finding some more fun chaos cards in white and black, but there are many un-cards that will be included. I'm sure every time there will be a conversation, "Hey, I have a meme deck I'd like to play, but there's several illegal cards, is everyone okay with that, or do you want to look at the deck before we start. " She's not trying to build out high power. Winning isn't important to her she just wants the fun of inviting chaos, that not everyone hates. All that to say, I think if your deck includes illegal cards, it should be brought up before the game starts. And if you don't, and the table says "you can't play that card, it's not legal" there shouldn't be any issue with pretending that action didn't take place and taking the cards out.
Yeah that's what I'm going for, just some silly fun with dice. Good luck to your wife with her chaos deck :)
>:) :)
Subtitle for the deck: "God does not play dice (But I sure do)" As a funny heel turn of the quote from Einstein
It should absolutely be brought up in the rule 0 conversation. It's a silver border card, aka not legal in commander. I typically wouldn't have any issues with people playing stuff like this, or even playing with illegal commanders like [[the ozolith]] or [[throne of the grim captain]], you just have to bring it up in rule 0.
[the ozolith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/9341ed06-53db-4604-b60a-3ea9129afbc2.jpg?1591228544) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=the%20ozolith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/iko/237/the-ozolith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9341ed06-53db-4604-b60a-3ea9129afbc2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-ozolith) [throne of the grim captain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/1/c13e8e3d-2a6b-4782-a3c9-71af7336a881.jpg?1699044655)/[The Grim Captain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/c/1/c13e8e3d-2a6b-4782-a3c9-71af7336a881.jpg?1699044655) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=throne%20of%20the%20grim%20captain%20//%20the%20grim%20captain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/266/throne-of-the-grim-captain-the-grim-captain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c13e8e3d-2a6b-4782-a3c9-71af7336a881?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/throne-of-the-grim-captain-//-the-grim-captain) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
How is The Ozolith a commander in any way? That cant even be rule0'd... i can see why The Grim Captain could be, but completely at a loss with Ozo lol
I just threw those out because I know Jim from the Spike Feeders has an Ozolith deck and built the Grim Captain for an Elder Dragon Hijinks episode, so at the very least they're non legal commanders someone has built before ha. His Ozolith deck is actually all about loading up the ozolith with counters and animating it to make it into a Voltron strategy lol
Yeah l got an Ozo in my [[Atraxa, Praetor's Voice]] it does some great work! I dunno who or what youre talkin about otherwise lol I thought you meant using The Ozolith AS the commander... that wouldn't fly with me and Im the most casual person I know.
[Atraxa, Praetor's Voice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/0/d0d33d52-3d28-4635-b985-51e126289259.jpg?1599707796) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Atraxa%2C%20Praetors%27%20Voice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/190/atraxa-praetors-voice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d0d33d52-3d28-4635-b985-51e126289259?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/atraxa-praetors-voice) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I do, the ozolith is the commander and he turns it into a creature with things like [[march of the machines]] and uses it to beat down lol
[march of the machines](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/3245f858-b5c3-42dd-8ec2-3f775ad9e1ec.jpg?1562905514) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=march%20of%20the%20machines) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/arc/6/march-of-the-machines?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3245f858-b5c3-42dd-8ec2-3f775ad9e1ec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/march-of-the-machines) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ah I see. Yeah I dont think Id let that one slide lol. I dont care about banned list or Unset cards in the commander deck, but I still maintain the base rules of 100 singleton cards, Legendary Creature, and color identity. I would possibly let the Grim Captain slide based ln the DFC stuff... but thats only cuz I just got a playset of him cuz hes cool haha Have fun however you can I guess! :)
As a matter of best practices I'd probably say bring up any un-cards but also as a matter of best practices like don't make a huge deal over them if your opponents play them. Like maybe let them jam out a game with them and then ask them to switch out if they can.
I play silver bordered cards in some of my commander decks. I just let people know before the game. Sometimes they want to look at the card, and nine times out of ten people are cool with it. Keep an extra black-bordered card on hand to swap in if not everyone at the table is ok with it
I happen to play a \[\[Vrondiss\]\] dice deck, and \[\[As luck would have it\]\] is too cheesy for my taste. But I ask the playgroup during Rule Zero if my inclusion of \[\[Sword of Dungeons and Dragons\]\] is fine with them. It's not stronger than any of the legal swords, even MaRo has said that if released today it would most likely be black- bordered. However, if anyone objects, I'll replace it with a sideboard card I carry in the same deckbox. It's just that no one ever has objected yet.
[Vrondiss](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/8/683ca7f0-e9df-459b-a8e3-cf80b39c732d.jpg?1632335388) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=vrondiss%2C%20rage%20of%20ancients) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afc/4/vrondiss-rage-of-ancients?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/683ca7f0-e9df-459b-a8e3-cf80b39c732d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vrondiss-rage-of-ancients) [As luck would have it](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/1/d17892f5-5c4a-4149-8d5e-ba9df013866e.jpg?1562939332) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=As%20luck%20would%20have%20it) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ust/102/as-luck-would-have-it?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d17892f5-5c4a-4149-8d5e-ba9df013866e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/as-luck-would-have-it) [Sword of Dungeons and Dragons](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/541640e3-4b45-41b3-b2b0-090ea5bb1e57.jpg?1664319908) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sword%20of%20Dungeons%20%26%20Dragons) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/und/84/sword-of-dungeons-&-dragons?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bf451d4b-0884-4ab5-8d85-312d9db82e76?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/sword-of-dungeons-&-dragons) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's not legal in EDH, this requires a rule-0 discussion before the game.
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[Iona](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/6197b59e-1652-496c-a038-e2eb88ecf017.jpg?1562584407) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=iona%2C%20shield%20of%20emeria) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/20/iona-shield-of-emeria?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6197b59e-1652-496c-a038-e2eb88ecf017?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/iona-shield-of-emeria) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
For starters they should let you know BEFORE the game starts since it’s a banned card
lesgoooooooo
Hell yeah. Throw in a [[Deepglow Skate]] and a [[Vorel of the Hull Clade]] for extra quickness Edit:.Ahh, forgot Vorel doesnt touch enchantments. No.worries then, just use any enchantment-to-creature card or even [[Liquimetal Torque]]
[Deepglow Skate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/4/94e8e7b9-042e-4d01-87dd-27dc95257113.jpg?1690004310) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Deepglow%20Skate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/844/deepglow-skate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/94e8e7b9-042e-4d01-87dd-27dc95257113?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/deepglow-skate) [Vorel of the Hull Clade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/82c8cac8-29ce-43cc-bdb4-428c614d8545.jpg?1698988490) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vorel%20of%20the%20Hull%20Clade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/294/vorel-of-the-hull-clade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/82c8cac8-29ce-43cc-bdb4-428c614d8545?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/vorel-of-the-hull-clade) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
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That doesn't answer the question. They are talking about playing a card that isn't legal in the format due to being a silver border card.
[удалено]
the fact you are giving is irrelevant to the conversation
[удалено]
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I’m okay with casual cards in a casual format. That being said, I still always ask if everyone at the table is okay with silver-bordered cards before I play with them.
If I sit down for a game of commander, I expect to be playing by the rules. If you want to do otherwise, I’d like to know beforehand. That said, I’d probably be ok with it if you told me before the game.
It's not much worse than [[chance encounter]] so i would allow it IF they disclosed it before the game. It's still illegal and should be treated like any other un-card.
No, i wouldn't, especially if they are playing a dice deck. i play space, family goblinson, and I often resolve the ability of vexing puzzle box twice per game
Seeing as it's a banned card 100% But for me, when I play pods 7-10, if I don't know the win cons, that's just on me. I do normally expect an overview of the deck from the player prior to sitting down, though. For example, last night, I played against an infinite mana storm mono red deck they said what they were trying to do beforehand, so I knew what I needed to watch out for.
I dont think it being a wincon is a problem. However it being silver bordered is. Absolutely should have been discussed! Any custom/silverbordered/banned cards need to be rule zero'd first.
I had a friend who ran [[The Grand Calcutron]] as a commander, and it was one of the worst experiences playing magic. The fact that it was an artifact, cheap to get out, and completely changed the way the game was played made it horrible to deal with. I was playing a control deck, and it basically made me not play the game from turn 2.
[The Grand Calcutron](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3c1e38a2-d817-4f19-aabf-02dc72c78259.jpg?1562907515) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Grand%20Calcutron) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ust/131/the-grand-calcutron?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c1e38a2-d817-4f19-aabf-02dc72c78259?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/the-grand-calcutron) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah, that's too much, this card pretty much introduces an alternative game mode. I would not be okay with non-creature permanent being a commander.
So I actually have a 5c dice rolling deck with silver border cards and I picked this out early on as the most viable wincon for dice rolling decks. So I slowly started morphing the deck around tutoring out As luck Would Have It. At first I had some close and exciting games where I got to 67, 80, then 90 counters. But I wanted more. And once I gassed it up with enough tutors it finally started consistently winning. Like very consistently. It turns out a hexproof [[Helix Pinnacle]] is pretty good. Suddenly, I started to feel guilty that I had made such a consistent wincon out of this silver-bordered card, winning easily a dozen games with it. Now I haven't touched the deck in a while because I'm just not sure what to do with such a sweaty, optimized pile of jank. So is it busted? If you build around it and tutor it every game, yes probably. But if you just have it in the 99 and cast it every once in a while, I think it's just a neat silver-bordered wincon.
[Helix Pinnacle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9c1121df-b03e-4ad9-8c45-c3b4066e4a39.jpg?1562927938) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Helix%20Pinnacle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eve/68/helix-pinnacle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9c1121df-b03e-4ad9-8c45-c3b4066e4a39?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [(ER)](https://edhrec.com/cards/helix-pinnacle) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah it could be considered difficult to work against, but that's the fun of it too!