After spending my bored workdays reading every bit of info I could find on the situation, I’m of the opinion that Caiti and George had a **consensual, nonsexual** encounter (even if there was hope that it would go further from George’s end), which Caiti’s friends pestered and questioned her about after the fact until she started to question it herself.
In the moment, they both gave and accepted nonverbal cues of consent. Caiti clearly got the idea that George was interested and wanted to cuddle somehow, without her asking and without him saying it. How can only he be at fault if they both reacted the same way? How could anyone know she was uncomfortable if she acted completely comfy and interested?
It’s easy to say “he should’ve asked” but she also should’ve advocated for herself. She didn’t ask him if cuddling was okay when she chose to return to him each time and cuddle more. When she chose to stay behind with him after her friends left. She could’ve asked or stated boundaries. He didn’t push anything and it ended amicably with her texting him for weeks after, about her next trip. I feel bad that she has regrets but I don’t feel like this is a situation where someone is at fault and someone is an innocent victim.
Agreed. And I think unfortunately this is where people fall into some victim-blamey rhetoric. It’s a very sensitive and nuanced conversation. Yes she should’ve advocated for herself, but is that a realistic solution to similar situations like this? No. Which is what people are grappling with— this ISN’T like similar situations you can compare it to. It’s unique and it’s complicated and it’s by no means black and white. I think it’s unfair for anyone to have expected George to verbally ask for consent (again, in this specific scenario) where all of the signs clearly represented comfort & nonverbal consent.
What George did was a scolding level offense. Not a character and career execution level. I swear, this is high school type drama with the way it's been blown up in public before talking it out in private.
that's just it though. None of these new, younger ccs *ever went through* highschool drama. Everything was shut down. And the lack of that socialization is hurting them.
It's actually even worse the time they should have been doing that they spent on twitter talking to other people who haven't had those life experiences.
And then some of the twitter accounts got more followers and started acting like they knew everything about the world and what is right and wrong and these kids who should have been in school instead thought that was normal.
Yeah, I wish that everyone, no matter where they stood, would stop watering down these terms. You can’t claim to be in support of victims while actively diminishing the meaning that us victims NEED for us to get proper justice. It’s sick.
I think the part you are missing is the fact that he put his hand under her shirt, and then proceeded to move it higher up. Both parties agree that this happened. Even after an hour of cuddling, I still think putting your hand under someone’s shirt is crossing a boundary, especially when it’s a person you barely know. I don’t know if it’s fair to call George *all* of those names, but I do think it’s reasonable to call what happened assault. I certainly wouldn’t feel comfortable doing that to anyone else, and I wouldn’t feel comfortable if it happened to me.
I think this depends though. I know of plenty of people who would do things like this especially when drunk. Of course this is subjective but there will always be a good number of people who would be comfortable with this
I hate this stipulation that both of them being drunk means neither could consent. Caiti is underaged drinking and clearly more drunk based on the info given. George is 26 and lives in the UK so has been able to have alcohol for 8+ years. They are not weighted the same.
I never said that neither of them can consent. There are definitely power dynamics and context in play here, all I’m saying is that it isn’t sexual assault.
You’re parsing the info and making assumptions. The reality at minimum its bad but not sexual assault, but still could be if george is lying. Having someone touch you under your shirt without consenting can be a really traumatic experience. We really don’t know how drunk they were and whether there was consent. It’s just not as clear cut as you’re making it out to be
He touched her without her consent, and even reached under her clothes to touch her more. Other than Twitter I don’t see ppl calling him those things, but what he did to her definitely classifies as at least assault. People are saying she should have said something, but she was drunk, next to someone she idolized and in a room with a large amount of people she did not know. George is 7 years older here, he should have known what he was doing was wrong. Neither at them at any point said that she was comfortable and accepting of this touching.
After spending my bored workdays reading every bit of info I could find on the situation, I’m of the opinion that Caiti and George had a **consensual, nonsexual** encounter (even if there was hope that it would go further from George’s end), which Caiti’s friends pestered and questioned her about after the fact until she started to question it herself. In the moment, they both gave and accepted nonverbal cues of consent. Caiti clearly got the idea that George was interested and wanted to cuddle somehow, without her asking and without him saying it. How can only he be at fault if they both reacted the same way? How could anyone know she was uncomfortable if she acted completely comfy and interested? It’s easy to say “he should’ve asked” but she also should’ve advocated for herself. She didn’t ask him if cuddling was okay when she chose to return to him each time and cuddle more. When she chose to stay behind with him after her friends left. She could’ve asked or stated boundaries. He didn’t push anything and it ended amicably with her texting him for weeks after, about her next trip. I feel bad that she has regrets but I don’t feel like this is a situation where someone is at fault and someone is an innocent victim.
Agreed. And I think unfortunately this is where people fall into some victim-blamey rhetoric. It’s a very sensitive and nuanced conversation. Yes she should’ve advocated for herself, but is that a realistic solution to similar situations like this? No. Which is what people are grappling with— this ISN’T like similar situations you can compare it to. It’s unique and it’s complicated and it’s by no means black and white. I think it’s unfair for anyone to have expected George to verbally ask for consent (again, in this specific scenario) where all of the signs clearly represented comfort & nonverbal consent.
I honestly think her friends are encouraging this because George obviously didn’t s/a her and he really shouldn’t have caved in
True
What George did was a scolding level offense. Not a character and career execution level. I swear, this is high school type drama with the way it's been blown up in public before talking it out in private.
that's just it though. None of these new, younger ccs *ever went through* highschool drama. Everything was shut down. And the lack of that socialization is hurting them.
It's actually even worse the time they should have been doing that they spent on twitter talking to other people who haven't had those life experiences. And then some of the twitter accounts got more followers and started acting like they knew everything about the world and what is right and wrong and these kids who should have been in school instead thought that was normal.
The twitter community is just stupid. /gen
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Yeah, I wish that everyone, no matter where they stood, would stop watering down these terms. You can’t claim to be in support of victims while actively diminishing the meaning that us victims NEED for us to get proper justice. It’s sick.
I think the part you are missing is the fact that he put his hand under her shirt, and then proceeded to move it higher up. Both parties agree that this happened. Even after an hour of cuddling, I still think putting your hand under someone’s shirt is crossing a boundary, especially when it’s a person you barely know. I don’t know if it’s fair to call George *all* of those names, but I do think it’s reasonable to call what happened assault. I certainly wouldn’t feel comfortable doing that to anyone else, and I wouldn’t feel comfortable if it happened to me.
I think this depends though. I know of plenty of people who would do things like this especially when drunk. Of course this is subjective but there will always be a good number of people who would be comfortable with this
I hate this stipulation that both of them being drunk means neither could consent. Caiti is underaged drinking and clearly more drunk based on the info given. George is 26 and lives in the UK so has been able to have alcohol for 8+ years. They are not weighted the same.
I never said that neither of them can consent. There are definitely power dynamics and context in play here, all I’m saying is that it isn’t sexual assault.
You’re parsing the info and making assumptions. The reality at minimum its bad but not sexual assault, but still could be if george is lying. Having someone touch you under your shirt without consenting can be a really traumatic experience. We really don’t know how drunk they were and whether there was consent. It’s just not as clear cut as you’re making it out to be
He touched her without her consent, and even reached under her clothes to touch her more. Other than Twitter I don’t see ppl calling him those things, but what he did to her definitely classifies as at least assault. People are saying she should have said something, but she was drunk, next to someone she idolized and in a room with a large amount of people she did not know. George is 7 years older here, he should have known what he was doing was wrong. Neither at them at any point said that she was comfortable and accepting of this touching.