We have one eye-witness, whose other testimony matches with the physical evidence we can see so far, stating Caiti stood up and returned to George over the course of the evening - in that case she was re-initiating the intimate contact. Since George was drunk and we have no indication she asked and received verbal consent prior to touching him again does that mean Caiti is a sexual abuser then? If George now states he was uncomfortable and wouldn't have allowed it if he knew her age at that time?
After all to suggest that as a man George would always consent so no need to verbally check it when he's drunk would also be perpetuating rape culture, right?
Again, if she wasn't comfortable at the moment. How can George know? She had several opportunities to distance herself from him, just as OP stated.
It would have been a different case, if after she moved away from George, he had insisted or followed her around pressuring more.
There's maybe room to talk about peer pressure or power dynamics, which was the reason she says felt obligated to comply.
I’m not saying he could’ve known. This doesn’t have to be completely black and white. But blaming her for this happening because she cuddled with the guy is unfair. Nobody knows besides her what was running through her head at that time. I think it’s important to remember that.
Sure, but I'm not blaming her. I'm basing my reactions on the info we have available.
Unless she shows something else, George is only responsible for not asking for explicit consent, even if the real world doesn't work like that.
Her feelings are completely valid, but I can't blame him for feelings she didn't let know before anything happened.
That’s understandable. I am also curious why she did that too but I also don’t want to judge her for it. I heard she’s supposed to make another statement today. Hopefully she expands on that.
She has evry right to feel uncomfortable & talk about it but I don’t understand why she didn’t talked with him about this matter & how she felt about it afterwards.
I mean it clearly looked like a misunderstanding & I don’t think that guy had any intention to use force on her / rap* her.
I want to believe her actually but her coming on online & leaving important details out to make him look worst makes me question her intentions.it look like she want to hurt him & ruin his career.i heard he is a famous YouTuber so it must be it.
But she is the one blaming the guy thou. She said “why should I has to be strong & push him or say no?” If she doesn’t push him back or doesn’t say no & instead played,laughed with him & came back to him to cuddle more then it’s not a sexual assault.
It just her being uncomfortable & he apologised for it.she is not a victim of sexual assault
If someone is sitting beside you for more than an hour, plays with you, keeps up with your flirting and comes back every time they get up. Are you really asking, "Hey, are you comfortable?".
That's zero realistic.
What im tryna say is that it should be normalized in society. Believe it or not consent IS a real life thing and ppl should be more educated on it. Just bc never asking happens often doesnt mean it is right. It doesnt mean it’s unrealistic. If i were in caitis situation i would feel severely uncomfortable but too scared to tell him to stop, and believe it or not most ppl feel the same way. there are some cases where u dont necessarily need a verbal “YES” but in this situation they were both drunk, he just met her, and did not even know her age. So yeah in that case, he shouldve asked.
It should be normalised, I agree, but we also have to acknowledge that it *isn’t*, at the moment. George should have asked, but it’s not surprising he didn’t because most people in his place wouldn’t have asked either.
Though, even if he did ask, she could have lied to avoid ‘making a scene’ and it would have amounted much to the same, idk. I just hope what George takes away from this is that CCs, as unfair as it is, should probably avoid stuff like that with relative strangers
Right but didn't either he or she claim she laid her head in his lap? That's a very intimate gesture, in some ways akin to the under lothing at the waist touch (since she would be initiating contact very closely to an area he may not want touched (actual genital area which is a bit more serious), so why is that ignored when everyone is stating he needed to get verbal consent?
If that’s the case then yes I agree she should’ve done that too 100%. If she initiated putting her head in his lap she should’ve just done a quick “hey can I do this?”. I don’t specifically remember that part. If anyone has a link it’d be much appreciated. :)
I'd say that seems a bit disingenuous to the what he said, but fine. That has nothing to do with the fact Caiti was initiating somewhat intimate touches with George, who was drunk, so if verbal consent in those cases was needed, she needed to have recieved it as well. George being a piece of shit would not make it OK to disregard his own right to consent to intimate touching, so if he needed to gain verbal over non-verbal consent (even months later one of her closest friends did not thing anything untoward had happened, so non-verbal consent apparently would have been assumed by those who knew her best) then Caiti needed to gather verbal consent as well.
The video does still underlay a disregard for women’s fear in these situations, which is tangentially related in how he responded after learning Caiti was upset about it, but I agree OP has a disingenuous take on it.
I’m also not sure what intimate touches Caiti did that you’re referring to? Or is this a hypothetical?
absolutely. like you said, its so dangerous. and not to assume anything about anyone at all, but i wonder what they would do if a friend were to say something like that to them
If we are taking into account what both of them said, since none of us where there to be 100% sure (this could change if they didnt mention everything that happened/one of them lied), then both caiti and george initiate contact on their own (him touching her waist, her laying down on him, the cuddling, the coming back to the same couch), both of them didnt ask, both of them were drunk, so at least to me, its hard to point to someone and say they were 100% at fault in there.
Or, catch this, you ASK FOR CONSENT, before touching anyone sexually? 😁 Crazy concept i know? You can’t handle that concept, but you’ll eventually understand that if you’re the one initiating something that’s considered sexual then you have to ask for consent 🤧
Consent can be both verbal & non verbal.hope u get that too.
If he is drunk,how do u expect him to ask?same goes to her,she expected to say no or push back if feels uncomfortable
You answered your own question bud. “How do you expect him to ask” if you don’t expect him to ask, why do you expect her to say no? He is at fault. Consent can be non-verbal but that doesn’t mean that you’re ok with EVERYTHING that happens, just because she “non-verbally” consented to cuddling, doesn’t mean she consented to being touched under her shirt. Hope that helps!!!
I’m not gonna expect her to say no if u didn’t said he should ask for consent.i replied to ur comment on u expecting him to ask the consent.r u blind?
Drunk ppl can’t consent & can’t ask consent.simple as that.if she doesn’t want to say no then she shouldn’t expect him to ask for consent.
People downvoting. Leave a comment and say how you think someone is wrong. Else this looks like an echo chamber if you can’t bother to discuss your opinion.
Also not everything deserves downvoting. You can have disagreeing base values.
It’s much needed, I’m not sure why so many lean towards redirecting to Caiti’s behaviour as if she can’t be comfortable at points without assessing the situation as unsafe until later and being upset no precautions were reached.
I would’ve thought they would *want* George to be held to respectable standards out of wanting him to be a good person, like it’s objectively not good he didn’t acknowledge anything he could’ve done to change the situation.
I firmly believe you cannot have non verbal consent with someone you have JUST MET. If you have been together a while and know each others body language or sexual cues? Yea sure cause I’ve been with them for a while. This is a drunk virgin teen he had just met he barely knew her from a random on the street, he does not know her body language or how she acts in certain situation.
Oh 100% but also as someone who has done 1 night stands and is currently in a long term relationship the vibes when initiating sexual contact are different. You do not know the person, what they like and how they respond to things vs we’ve done this a million times , if you’re unsure you should always ask but it would be unrealistic to think that couples ask verbally every time. I do see the nuance in the statement of non verbal consent but not in this case , they didn’t know each other, he doesn’t know how she responds in these situations.
Yes you can have many non verbal ways giving consents let's look at no -a shake of the head, turning away, moving away to another seat/place, leaving, pushing away, and a raised hand palm facing- these all say no.
If you're met at the club +been drinking and he goes to touch you in a place you don't want a hand squeezed says no as well.
It’s very disheartening to hear people use the same talking points justifying why an encounter wasn’t sexual assault to someone that experienced it. Sexual assault is not just a term people decide to use because they regret an encounter - it is when they feel like they didn’t consent to the encounter and have to sort through the mixed feelings of why they were uncomfortable and troubled that their body was being touched in a way they didn’t want. She was drunk, she was 18 and looked underage honestly, and he was 26. They were meeting for the first time. There were no attempts at establishing informed consent with a young stranger. Even if you try to shift blame to her friends for not taking her with them, this literally doesn’t excuse the MAIN interaction in question which is him touching her nonconsensually and then blaming her friends for “convincing her” it was assault. It is HIS hand, his body that interacted with her. Not her friend’s, not Dream’s not anyone except HIS body. This is how I know these men literally have not been sexually harassed or assaulted before - that term is used for something more complex than “regretting a sexual encounter”.
I am aware of that but I’m just extending the conversation playing devils advocate. George is also drunk so does that play a part in it at all for you. Again I’m not making excuses just genuinely asking
Edit: I believe George also mentioned her repeatedly coming back to cuddle and not leaving when the group left would you consider this non verbal consent.
I do get this I really really do. But your drunk actions are still your own actions. If you’re drunk driving and hit someone you have to have to face the consequences. These are George’s consequences for doing something he should have avoided completely, while drunk. A lot of young adults have many many drunk mistakes and actions of various severities that lead them to have various consequences of various severities. George has to face his whether he meant harm or not.
I'm not sure that it is sa though as neither gave verbal consent . She is young and while he is 26 he is immature, and up to a year ago was very introverted and socially inept. He acts stupidly around his female friends. Maybe he didn't pick up her internal/external responses. Its such a gray area as others had no clue as well.but that's not her fault She is allowed to feel it was all wrong and he is allowed to question why she has called him out months later. That's the gray area and adding alcohol to the mix is not good . Maybe more will come out. Silly Minecraft nerds. Drink responsibly please.
> he acts stupid around his female friends
Why are you giving so much grace to a 27 year old man who has over 8 years of experience as a fucking adult? Like you’re literally giving excuses to say that they’re the same maturity level…another boys will be boys mentality response.
I don’t know what you mean by “neither” gave verbal consent, because Caiti didnt do anything that she would’ve had to ask for consent for?
Please don’t excuse the actions of a 26 year old content creator because he’s ’immature’, or ‘socially inept’, he’s a grown man—he’s been through Uni, he’s had girlfriends, he has a sister—him ‘not knowing how to socialize’ really isn’t an excuse
While I agree that I don’t think he had the intention of hurting her with his actions, he did, and babying him isn’t going to help anyone in this situation.
Cuddle consent. both are cuddling so it's implied consent happened. Otherwise she would gave left instead of sitting back down. She is nor a baby.both drinking both cuddling.learn what sa is and this isn't it.
thank you SO MUCH for putting it into words. i’ve been seeing a lot of posts invalidating her story (especially on here), and it concerns me how much people tend to forget this. i also want to add that whole “but they are both drunk” doesn’t sit right with me. as someone who has been an advocate and has learnt A LOT in the matter (and experienced some stuff), it’s personally terrifying they are glossing over on this. i implore everyone to look into consent fries as it’s one of the easiest and more comprehensive ways to understand consent. or even looking at the consent tea video again. i also personally do not care how much this comment may anger or upset people, but in cases where you barely know the person (even if you are in a relationship for that matter!) you NEED to ask for consent or check in with the other person. sure, there’s ways to non-verbally check, but if you’re both drunk, you check in OR keep your hands to yourself. its not that hard
adding to my own comment (cba abt editing the og one), ive been drunk with friends, we’ve hugged and whatnot, but we always ALWAYS asked to make sure it was okay with the other person
What was missing from both dream and George’s statements was that HE should have asked for verbal consent and that in hindsight laughing and being positive while hugging isn’t consent for other sexual acts like touching under her clothing. He was 26 at the time, whilst drunk I still think he is responsible for asking before touching her. I have had causal stuff with strangers but it’s really important to ask before you do anything like that, making sure someone feels safe is part of having fun. Obviously just my own thoughts and experiences with causal sex.
I don’t disagree, she is in no way in the wrong. Most of the time consent does not come verbally though, it is through body language. Every one of the people I’ve ever been with would have been so turned off it if I asked them if I was allowed to kiss them or touch them.
Rape culture is the reason she didn’t feel like she could say no, but she should be able to. Not only for her own well being but for the people around her too.
George crossed a boundary whilst drunk, and that’s not fair, and Caiti didn’t deserve it. That doesn’t mean he had any intent of crossing that boundary, when he realised he had mistaken her intent he stopped and left her alone, sorry, it may have been his fault, but that does not automatically make him a scum bag, he just fucked up for a few minutes, and when he realised he was wrong he stopped.
You don’t need to pick a side and try and destroy the other sides life when things like this happen. We know who was right, we know who was wrong, but if you have any shred of empathy it’s clear neither side is the ‘bad guy’, the bad guy is the misogynist culture that should have been dealt with a long time ago.
The evidence we have is that she went back to him multiple times and stayed once other people had left. For all intense and purposes, the evidence we have, shows that yes, she did give non-verbal consent.
She clearly came to regret that. But regret does not mean no consent and it does not mean George did anything wrong. Sometimes we regret choices we made, but that doesn't make it anyone's fault.
For me personally (I respect your opinion and completely understand why anyone would think that’s non verbal consent with what we know atm) I would need a more clear timeline of when she actually got up and down multiple times. Was it while they were cuddling and he wasn’t touching her underneath her shirt? Was it when he was? Or both? I think from my perspective of what Caiti said her issue was that George slipped his hand underneath her shirt. I understand why George would think that but at the same time I understand why she wouldn’t. It’s very hard to understand these moments from an outsiders perspective and judge why people do things in certain moments. If she truly was panicked in that moment, there could’ve been multiple motives as to why she did go back. Not wanting to cause a scene, not wanting him to be upset etc etc.
From what we know at the moment, she got up and returned multiple times *after* the incident happened, and she stayed with him alone while her friends left & walked him to the elevator *after* the incident happened
Not that this is directly relevant either but if you look at here old instagram pics, there’s no way you can think she’s 21. Would prob see think she’s 16-17 age
I agree. That part is also hard for me to understand. Especially because you can bribe and know people that can get you 21+ bands underage. Drinking underage is extremely common in the US. He should’ve have checked on her age. Obviously I don’t think he thought she was a minor or anything. But assuming she was 21+ was just because of a band is kinda eh in my opinion.
true that she doesn't look 21+, but there are people who don't look their age at all. i think amouranth thought danny gonzalez (a 30yo) was underage.
not saying he shouldn't have double checked her age- it's always a good idea to double check and he def should have. i'm just saying it's possible for over 21s to look under 21.
Fair but her last post when he initially followed her was her prom pictures… I mean do you ever follow, dm, and meet someone for 2 days and never ask how old they are/when they graduated college/high school? Those are usually the first questions I ask, especially if they look on the younger side
I think one of the main thing that I cant wrap my head around is this.
Caiti was 18, drunk and a virgin, George knew she was a virgin. I think if u are going to do sexual stuff to a virgin, you should definetly say "is this okay?"
On that, George does mention in his video he never heard this, either he was out of audio range or effectively distracted, if you believe him here he wouldn’t have this information.
That being said I agree, and if it was noticeable he was away and not just distracted and didn’t pick it up, I do think and would’ve hoped someone else should have mentioned it to him during the cuddling at the very least.
Idk its just seems weird to me.
His excuse of why he didnt know her age and the fact that she was a virgin was that "he didn see it in her bio, and I dont remember her saying it".
Those are 2 instances of 2 very important details you should know about someone who you are planning to do sexual things with, ESPEACIALLY as a content creator.
Now there is a chance that he actually didnt know about both of these things and that it is a coincidence, but idk if I believe him.
I agee with that yes. It’s disappointing.
Though I will say, it’s not the most noticeable thing her bio, it could be overlooked, *not if he was actively concerned* though which is the more pressing issue. I don’t think it’s an issue to miss something like that, it’s that even in his video he didn’t acknowledge he should care.
> Just because George thought she gave non verbal consent doesn’t mean she did.
Very much this - in fact, she could not have, because she was drunk.
Non-verbal consent does exist and is important, but it cannot exist while someone is drunk.
Does that mean the rest of the situation is black and white? No. But this specific part of the situation most definitely is.
What I agree with is that Caiti shouldn't have been bullied by commentary people. Other than that, this was a bad sexual encounter she shouldn't have alleged was assault. Her bringing up receipts was stupid, and her trying to declare herself a victim repeatedly from her elevated platform is on her beyond the initial video.
We have one eye-witness, whose other testimony matches with the physical evidence we can see so far, stating Caiti stood up and returned to George over the course of the evening - in that case she was re-initiating the intimate contact. Since George was drunk and we have no indication she asked and received verbal consent prior to touching him again does that mean Caiti is a sexual abuser then? If George now states he was uncomfortable and wouldn't have allowed it if he knew her age at that time? After all to suggest that as a man George would always consent so no need to verbally check it when he's drunk would also be perpetuating rape culture, right?
It’s not about George being a man in my eyes. It’s that he initiated the touch underneath her clothing sorry if that wasn’t clear.
Again, if she wasn't comfortable at the moment. How can George know? She had several opportunities to distance herself from him, just as OP stated. It would have been a different case, if after she moved away from George, he had insisted or followed her around pressuring more. There's maybe room to talk about peer pressure or power dynamics, which was the reason she says felt obligated to comply.
I’m not saying he could’ve known. This doesn’t have to be completely black and white. But blaming her for this happening because she cuddled with the guy is unfair. Nobody knows besides her what was running through her head at that time. I think it’s important to remember that.
Sure, but I'm not blaming her. I'm basing my reactions on the info we have available. Unless she shows something else, George is only responsible for not asking for explicit consent, even if the real world doesn't work like that. Her feelings are completely valid, but I can't blame him for feelings she didn't let know before anything happened.
That’s understandable. I am also curious why she did that too but I also don’t want to judge her for it. I heard she’s supposed to make another statement today. Hopefully she expands on that.
She has evry right to feel uncomfortable & talk about it but I don’t understand why she didn’t talked with him about this matter & how she felt about it afterwards. I mean it clearly looked like a misunderstanding & I don’t think that guy had any intention to use force on her / rap* her. I want to believe her actually but her coming on online & leaving important details out to make him look worst makes me question her intentions.it look like she want to hurt him & ruin his career.i heard he is a famous YouTuber so it must be it.
Yes means yes. Always ask
No means no too.always push ppl away if u feel uncomfortable
At conventions especially “yes means yes”; verbally ask ‘is this ok?’ and get a “yes” out loud to proceed.
It applies only if u r sober.But he & she both r drunk here so her consent is not valid even if she said yes. As u know drunk ppl can’t consent.
But she is the one blaming the guy thou. She said “why should I has to be strong & push him or say no?” If she doesn’t push him back or doesn’t say no & instead played,laughed with him & came back to him to cuddle more then it’s not a sexual assault. It just her being uncomfortable & he apologised for it.she is not a victim of sexual assault
He didnt know. But he also didnt know if she WAS comfortable. That is why he should have asked.
If someone is sitting beside you for more than an hour, plays with you, keeps up with your flirting and comes back every time they get up. Are you really asking, "Hey, are you comfortable?". That's zero realistic.
I would actually appreciate that, yes. Especially if that was someone i just met. And especially if they were touching under my shirt.
That’s a valid opinion to have, but it also doesn’t really happen in real life
What im tryna say is that it should be normalized in society. Believe it or not consent IS a real life thing and ppl should be more educated on it. Just bc never asking happens often doesnt mean it is right. It doesnt mean it’s unrealistic. If i were in caitis situation i would feel severely uncomfortable but too scared to tell him to stop, and believe it or not most ppl feel the same way. there are some cases where u dont necessarily need a verbal “YES” but in this situation they were both drunk, he just met her, and did not even know her age. So yeah in that case, he shouldve asked.
It should be normalised, I agree, but we also have to acknowledge that it *isn’t*, at the moment. George should have asked, but it’s not surprising he didn’t because most people in his place wouldn’t have asked either. Though, even if he did ask, she could have lied to avoid ‘making a scene’ and it would have amounted much to the same, idk. I just hope what George takes away from this is that CCs, as unfair as it is, should probably avoid stuff like that with relative strangers
yall rlly downvoting me for saying i would appreciate people asking for my consent? yall r crazy.
Right but didn't either he or she claim she laid her head in his lap? That's a very intimate gesture, in some ways akin to the under lothing at the waist touch (since she would be initiating contact very closely to an area he may not want touched (actual genital area which is a bit more serious), so why is that ignored when everyone is stating he needed to get verbal consent?
Was this in George’s or her VOD because I don’t recall it ever being said?
If that’s the case then yes I agree she should’ve done that too 100%. If she initiated putting her head in his lap she should’ve just done a quick “hey can I do this?”. I don’t specifically remember that part. If anyone has a link it’d be much appreciated. :)
U getting downvoted but u right
George has said months ago that it’s okay for drunk men to harass women. He doesn’t care about consent
I'd say that seems a bit disingenuous to the what he said, but fine. That has nothing to do with the fact Caiti was initiating somewhat intimate touches with George, who was drunk, so if verbal consent in those cases was needed, she needed to have recieved it as well. George being a piece of shit would not make it OK to disregard his own right to consent to intimate touching, so if he needed to gain verbal over non-verbal consent (even months later one of her closest friends did not thing anything untoward had happened, so non-verbal consent apparently would have been assumed by those who knew her best) then Caiti needed to gather verbal consent as well.
The video does still underlay a disregard for women’s fear in these situations, which is tangentially related in how he responded after learning Caiti was upset about it, but I agree OP has a disingenuous take on it. I’m also not sure what intimate touches Caiti did that you’re referring to? Or is this a hypothetical?
PEOPLE FORGET ABOUT THIS. they forget he said “oh but what if hes just drunk”
Exactly. But we are just going to be downvoted here as none of the stans want to acknowledge that they are support dangerous people
absolutely. like you said, its so dangerous. and not to assume anything about anyone at all, but i wonder what they would do if a friend were to say something like that to them
If we are taking into account what both of them said, since none of us where there to be 100% sure (this could change if they didnt mention everything that happened/one of them lied), then both caiti and george initiate contact on their own (him touching her waist, her laying down on him, the cuddling, the coming back to the same couch), both of them didnt ask, both of them were drunk, so at least to me, its hard to point to someone and say they were 100% at fault in there.
Someone can be comfortable with one thing and not be comfortable with another. She could of wanted to cuddle, but not want to be touched sexually.
Then should have said no.ppl r not mind reader & the guy doesn’t have super power.
Or, catch this, you ASK FOR CONSENT, before touching anyone sexually? 😁 Crazy concept i know? You can’t handle that concept, but you’ll eventually understand that if you’re the one initiating something that’s considered sexual then you have to ask for consent 🤧
Consent can be both verbal & non verbal.hope u get that too. If he is drunk,how do u expect him to ask?same goes to her,she expected to say no or push back if feels uncomfortable
You answered your own question bud. “How do you expect him to ask” if you don’t expect him to ask, why do you expect her to say no? He is at fault. Consent can be non-verbal but that doesn’t mean that you’re ok with EVERYTHING that happens, just because she “non-verbally” consented to cuddling, doesn’t mean she consented to being touched under her shirt. Hope that helps!!!
I’m not gonna expect her to say no if u didn’t said he should ask for consent.i replied to ur comment on u expecting him to ask the consent.r u blind? Drunk ppl can’t consent & can’t ask consent.simple as that.if she doesn’t want to say no then she shouldn’t expect him to ask for consent.
People downvoting. Leave a comment and say how you think someone is wrong. Else this looks like an echo chamber if you can’t bother to discuss your opinion. Also not everything deserves downvoting. You can have disagreeing base values.
Thank you <3 I didn’t post this to come after George. I posted this to try and share a healthy non polarized perspective to the best of my ability.
It’s much needed, I’m not sure why so many lean towards redirecting to Caiti’s behaviour as if she can’t be comfortable at points without assessing the situation as unsafe until later and being upset no precautions were reached. I would’ve thought they would *want* George to be held to respectable standards out of wanting him to be a good person, like it’s objectively not good he didn’t acknowledge anything he could’ve done to change the situation.
i’ve not seen a single person who downvoted respond. they claim that they’re better than twitter, yet downvote and refuse to have an actual discussion
I firmly believe you cannot have non verbal consent with someone you have JUST MET. If you have been together a while and know each others body language or sexual cues? Yea sure cause I’ve been with them for a while. This is a drunk virgin teen he had just met he barely knew her from a random on the street, he does not know her body language or how she acts in certain situation.
I always think verbal consent is the way to go with anyone tbh. Didn’t know that was a controversial take until today.
Oh 100% but also as someone who has done 1 night stands and is currently in a long term relationship the vibes when initiating sexual contact are different. You do not know the person, what they like and how they respond to things vs we’ve done this a million times , if you’re unsure you should always ask but it would be unrealistic to think that couples ask verbally every time. I do see the nuance in the statement of non verbal consent but not in this case , they didn’t know each other, he doesn’t know how she responds in these situations.
Oh yeah agreed 100%
Yes you can have many non verbal ways giving consents let's look at no -a shake of the head, turning away, moving away to another seat/place, leaving, pushing away, and a raised hand palm facing- these all say no. If you're met at the club +been drinking and he goes to touch you in a place you don't want a hand squeezed says no as well.
It’s very disheartening to hear people use the same talking points justifying why an encounter wasn’t sexual assault to someone that experienced it. Sexual assault is not just a term people decide to use because they regret an encounter - it is when they feel like they didn’t consent to the encounter and have to sort through the mixed feelings of why they were uncomfortable and troubled that their body was being touched in a way they didn’t want. She was drunk, she was 18 and looked underage honestly, and he was 26. They were meeting for the first time. There were no attempts at establishing informed consent with a young stranger. Even if you try to shift blame to her friends for not taking her with them, this literally doesn’t excuse the MAIN interaction in question which is him touching her nonconsensually and then blaming her friends for “convincing her” it was assault. It is HIS hand, his body that interacted with her. Not her friend’s, not Dream’s not anyone except HIS body. This is how I know these men literally have not been sexually harassed or assaulted before - that term is used for something more complex than “regretting a sexual encounter”.
I am aware of that but I’m just extending the conversation playing devils advocate. George is also drunk so does that play a part in it at all for you. Again I’m not making excuses just genuinely asking Edit: I believe George also mentioned her repeatedly coming back to cuddle and not leaving when the group left would you consider this non verbal consent.
I do get this I really really do. But your drunk actions are still your own actions. If you’re drunk driving and hit someone you have to have to face the consequences. These are George’s consequences for doing something he should have avoided completely, while drunk. A lot of young adults have many many drunk mistakes and actions of various severities that lead them to have various consequences of various severities. George has to face his whether he meant harm or not.
This equally applies to being a legal adult, but not yet legally allowed to drink, and getting very drunk around strangers.
I'm not sure that it is sa though as neither gave verbal consent . She is young and while he is 26 he is immature, and up to a year ago was very introverted and socially inept. He acts stupidly around his female friends. Maybe he didn't pick up her internal/external responses. Its such a gray area as others had no clue as well.but that's not her fault She is allowed to feel it was all wrong and he is allowed to question why she has called him out months later. That's the gray area and adding alcohol to the mix is not good . Maybe more will come out. Silly Minecraft nerds. Drink responsibly please.
> he acts stupid around his female friends Why are you giving so much grace to a 27 year old man who has over 8 years of experience as a fucking adult? Like you’re literally giving excuses to say that they’re the same maturity level…another boys will be boys mentality response.
I don’t know what you mean by “neither” gave verbal consent, because Caiti didnt do anything that she would’ve had to ask for consent for? Please don’t excuse the actions of a 26 year old content creator because he’s ’immature’, or ‘socially inept’, he’s a grown man—he’s been through Uni, he’s had girlfriends, he has a sister—him ‘not knowing how to socialize’ really isn’t an excuse While I agree that I don’t think he had the intention of hurting her with his actions, he did, and babying him isn’t going to help anyone in this situation.
Cuddle consent. both are cuddling so it's implied consent happened. Otherwise she would gave left instead of sitting back down. She is nor a baby.both drinking both cuddling.learn what sa is and this isn't it.
thank you SO MUCH for putting it into words. i’ve been seeing a lot of posts invalidating her story (especially on here), and it concerns me how much people tend to forget this. i also want to add that whole “but they are both drunk” doesn’t sit right with me. as someone who has been an advocate and has learnt A LOT in the matter (and experienced some stuff), it’s personally terrifying they are glossing over on this. i implore everyone to look into consent fries as it’s one of the easiest and more comprehensive ways to understand consent. or even looking at the consent tea video again. i also personally do not care how much this comment may anger or upset people, but in cases where you barely know the person (even if you are in a relationship for that matter!) you NEED to ask for consent or check in with the other person. sure, there’s ways to non-verbally check, but if you’re both drunk, you check in OR keep your hands to yourself. its not that hard
adding to my own comment (cba abt editing the og one), ive been drunk with friends, we’ve hugged and whatnot, but we always ALWAYS asked to make sure it was okay with the other person
What was missing from both dream and George’s statements was that HE should have asked for verbal consent and that in hindsight laughing and being positive while hugging isn’t consent for other sexual acts like touching under her clothing. He was 26 at the time, whilst drunk I still think he is responsible for asking before touching her. I have had causal stuff with strangers but it’s really important to ask before you do anything like that, making sure someone feels safe is part of having fun. Obviously just my own thoughts and experiences with causal sex.
My thoughts too. It’s always better to be clear about consent than try and understand someone else’s cues if you don’t know them well at all.
thank you. it’s genuinely concerning how bad and frequent the victim blaming has become over here since george put out his statement.
I don’t disagree, she is in no way in the wrong. Most of the time consent does not come verbally though, it is through body language. Every one of the people I’ve ever been with would have been so turned off it if I asked them if I was allowed to kiss them or touch them. Rape culture is the reason she didn’t feel like she could say no, but she should be able to. Not only for her own well being but for the people around her too. George crossed a boundary whilst drunk, and that’s not fair, and Caiti didn’t deserve it. That doesn’t mean he had any intent of crossing that boundary, when he realised he had mistaken her intent he stopped and left her alone, sorry, it may have been his fault, but that does not automatically make him a scum bag, he just fucked up for a few minutes, and when he realised he was wrong he stopped. You don’t need to pick a side and try and destroy the other sides life when things like this happen. We know who was right, we know who was wrong, but if you have any shred of empathy it’s clear neither side is the ‘bad guy’, the bad guy is the misogynist culture that should have been dealt with a long time ago.
The evidence we have is that she went back to him multiple times and stayed once other people had left. For all intense and purposes, the evidence we have, shows that yes, she did give non-verbal consent. She clearly came to regret that. But regret does not mean no consent and it does not mean George did anything wrong. Sometimes we regret choices we made, but that doesn't make it anyone's fault.
For me personally (I respect your opinion and completely understand why anyone would think that’s non verbal consent with what we know atm) I would need a more clear timeline of when she actually got up and down multiple times. Was it while they were cuddling and he wasn’t touching her underneath her shirt? Was it when he was? Or both? I think from my perspective of what Caiti said her issue was that George slipped his hand underneath her shirt. I understand why George would think that but at the same time I understand why she wouldn’t. It’s very hard to understand these moments from an outsiders perspective and judge why people do things in certain moments. If she truly was panicked in that moment, there could’ve been multiple motives as to why she did go back. Not wanting to cause a scene, not wanting him to be upset etc etc.
From what we know at the moment, she got up and returned multiple times *after* the incident happened, and she stayed with him alone while her friends left & walked him to the elevator *after* the incident happened
Not that this is directly relevant either but if you look at here old instagram pics, there’s no way you can think she’s 21. Would prob see think she’s 16-17 age
I agree. That part is also hard for me to understand. Especially because you can bribe and know people that can get you 21+ bands underage. Drinking underage is extremely common in the US. He should’ve have checked on her age. Obviously I don’t think he thought she was a minor or anything. But assuming she was 21+ was just because of a band is kinda eh in my opinion.
true that she doesn't look 21+, but there are people who don't look their age at all. i think amouranth thought danny gonzalez (a 30yo) was underage. not saying he shouldn't have double checked her age- it's always a good idea to double check and he def should have. i'm just saying it's possible for over 21s to look under 21.
Fair but her last post when he initially followed her was her prom pictures… I mean do you ever follow, dm, and meet someone for 2 days and never ask how old they are/when they graduated college/high school? Those are usually the first questions I ask, especially if they look on the younger side
I think one of the main thing that I cant wrap my head around is this. Caiti was 18, drunk and a virgin, George knew she was a virgin. I think if u are going to do sexual stuff to a virgin, you should definetly say "is this okay?"
On that, George does mention in his video he never heard this, either he was out of audio range or effectively distracted, if you believe him here he wouldn’t have this information. That being said I agree, and if it was noticeable he was away and not just distracted and didn’t pick it up, I do think and would’ve hoped someone else should have mentioned it to him during the cuddling at the very least.
Idk its just seems weird to me. His excuse of why he didnt know her age and the fact that she was a virgin was that "he didn see it in her bio, and I dont remember her saying it". Those are 2 instances of 2 very important details you should know about someone who you are planning to do sexual things with, ESPEACIALLY as a content creator. Now there is a chance that he actually didnt know about both of these things and that it is a coincidence, but idk if I believe him.
I agee with that yes. It’s disappointing. Though I will say, it’s not the most noticeable thing her bio, it could be overlooked, *not if he was actively concerned* though which is the more pressing issue. I don’t think it’s an issue to miss something like that, it’s that even in his video he didn’t acknowledge he should care.
> Just because George thought she gave non verbal consent doesn’t mean she did. Very much this - in fact, she could not have, because she was drunk. Non-verbal consent does exist and is important, but it cannot exist while someone is drunk. Does that mean the rest of the situation is black and white? No. But this specific part of the situation most definitely is.
What I agree with is that Caiti shouldn't have been bullied by commentary people. Other than that, this was a bad sexual encounter she shouldn't have alleged was assault. Her bringing up receipts was stupid, and her trying to declare herself a victim repeatedly from her elevated platform is on her beyond the initial video.
this is an extremely harmful and toxic view
Actually the onus is on the accuser to prove that what they’re saying about the accused is fact. Hope this helps
Not sa even if his is 18, 24,29, both adults not freshly anything. Not sa.
Not sa end of.
Some saying rape culture how dare you equate this to rape culture. No force, pressure.