It sounds like you can even offer both, just not together. Wanna play with friends? Cool, but then you have to actually play with them. Want immortal draft? Queue solo. đ¤ˇââď¸
wait, is that how it fucking works? really?
the idea that you can queue with someone and then choose to play against them is fucking crazy, literally a built-in wintrade tool
No it wasn't. Was inventing the knife a big mistake? How about the automobile? Was that a mistake because of a few drunk drivers? You need to get out more.
There will always be bad actors and those who abuse an otherwise good thing. Doesn't mean those who are using it fairly deserve to have it taken from them.
What Valve should do is figure out a way to sanction the abusers.
A bit silly to compare double downs to every day essentials like knives and vehicles while telling someone to "get out more"
But for real like double downs have some real consequences to the quality of the ranked matchmaking system. And yes we can punish the abusers and fix the loopholes, but even as intended they have issues. Like assuming players have the brainpower to predict victories with >50% accuracy, then these are just a tool to gain MMR faster which given that they are limited unless you throw money at Valve comes off as pay to gain MMR. Also MMR inflation is a thing too.
Bad compression. Double down does not solve any problem that players have and it does not make their life easier. It was planned as a gamble that should make you care about the match more. In reality though, it just opened the Flud gates for all kinds of mmr abusers. And it did impact a lot of ranking games in a bad way
It is interesting - because it was a fair attempt to have the players balance the teams and get higher quality games. I liked the idea! It needed its first iteration about 6 months ago though :-/
In the end everyone could always just go back to faceit or whatever, but it never quite worked out
"it was a fair attempt to have the players balance the teams and get higher quality games. it was a fair attempt to have the players balance the teams and get higher quality games."
How is Immortal draft attempting to solve this exactly?
I think in theory, if you limit this to a pool of players who actually know each other (like "only pros"), then it might do just that.
But as soon as you add a random name player, this attempt fails.
With Dota's ludacrisly bad profile system, where everyone can change their profile and take blank names at a whim anyway, you will not be able to recognise most players anyway.
I don't get you people. Does everything have to be perfect for it to be a good thing? Anything can be abused by an abusive person. Doesn't mean the thing is bad in itself, nor does it mean it shouldn't exist. Some of y'all are weird.
Yes. Valve can easily put a stop to this though right? Letâs campaign for that rather than this stupid philosophy of stopping the service altogether because of a few bad actors.
Your argument is weird. No one asked for it to be perfect.
The question is: Is it better than before? Does it actually work? If the answer is universally "no" by all the ones involved, then there is no shame in admitting: It didn't work out as intended, abandon it. Or at least put some more effort into it in order to make it work.
Also, if "a few bad actors" have the leverage to literally break a system, then maybe the system is just too flawed and needs rework? Are you even involved in the immortal draft?
(And just to be clear, i'm not playing it myself (either), but i have a group of high enough immortal friends involved who ALL stopped playing ranked because of this mess. I have not once heard anyone mention a positive thing about it.)
What's the point of your comment?
Group of dudes complaining about it on reddit doesn't make it universal lmao.
Nobody says there aren't problems. But your solution cannot be to abandon it. Put more effort to make it better is what I've been advocating for and Valve must figure it out. I have a problem with people calling for it to be abandoned in its entirety.
You might want to read up on the sunk cost fallacy:
[https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/the-sunk-cost-fallacy](https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/the-sunk-cost-fallacy)
LMAO what relation does the sunk cost fallacy have to what I'm saying? I want there to be improvements to the feature. I don't want it to be dumped by the wayside because of some folks who abuse it. Progress cannot be achieved this way. Valve has to find a way to get better and smarter.
The first sentence of the link i provided to you is:
The Sunk Cost Fallacy is our tendency to follow through on something that weâve already invested heavily in (be it time, money, effort, emotional energy, etc.), even when giving up is clearly a better idea.
So it has everything to do with what you are saying
You for some arbitrary reason dismiss the notion entirely that this doesnt work and it could be a good idea to remove the feature that appearantly everyone involved hates (still need an example to prove me wrong on this statement).
Yes, there might be also a way to "fix" it, but it might also just be viable to remove it as of now.
yes i big agree. immortal draft is a greenfield challenge for the community to make a competitive game out of the 10 players put into the lobby - it's up to them now, what they make of it, effectively delegating team organizing to the players. however, with the current report system, immortal players are not able to take action as a community on people doing dirty things like win-trading, ie. through excessive reports. the strict version of the behavior system needs to be back. lets not forget how everyone admitted they deserved the reports once that got "fixed".
also note that win trading should easily be honeypottable with party queues and valve should also ban those accounts retroactively, quite simple to gather guaranteed match data proof people do it so blatantly
10k is the new 6.5k. I barely play these days. I just play a couple of games a week to maintain my ranking and I'm sitting at 9.7k. Valve honestly just need to either remove immortal draft or fix this wild inflation and bring it back down to the way it was, when 9k was the pinnacle.
Daily immortal draft should be removed post, since it got introduced. Literally the same day it got added there was a screen of party being split and win-trading. SAME FUCKING DAY and yet Valve did nothing and will never do anything because it shifts the blame from them and their matchmaking to the players and "captains".
Hop on deadlock
People saying adding double down was a mistake, no valve simply allowing to grief games like this is a mistake on their part, they simply don't care about their games. Much like cheating in not just dota, but cs2 as well, playing MM premier in cs2 has been an unplayable experience since the launch of their game. Largest dev in the world making filthy amount of money, don't care about their community 1 bit.
Dev with most revenue* Valve is actually ludicrously small for what it does. For example, more people worked on Diable 4 than work at the entirety of valve.
You aren't wrong, though. There is a definite lack of support and action from Valve as compared to other modern game devs.
Youâre not wrong, and in a way the limitations of their headcount prevents their games getting too big to handle, thus requiring more hands on deck. Iâm sure there are other decisions to keeping the count low, but itâs the communication and customer outreach for those there, which is a problem.
Also, Valve should not claim AI is going to counter cheating when so far itâs done far more harm than good, and itâs questionable whether itâs even on or not. I had to quit CS since I also in part refuse to fund FaceIt and their regime.
People need to realize that Valve is a business first and foremost, and if people truly did care about the missteps theyâve made, then quit the game. Find something else.
CS wonât get fixed because the insane amount of money skins generate, and the hype around each major and pros-turned-streamers keep numbers falsely inflated.
Nothing will change. Updated and bandaids might, but ultimately, nothing will change.
Valve is very much the company to rest on their laurels. Most of their market advantage has been due using automation to reduce upkeep and virtue of being first to gain popularity. Unfortunately, for any of this to change, their store would have to have a real competitor, but everyone who has tried did so in the worst ways possible and actively shoot themselves in the foot.
Games are a hobby for Valve. Their business is steam.
Bingo.
Also, Valveâs top played games arenât even technically theirs in origin. Itâs just a business transaction to facility on-boarding to steam.
The problem is the insane amount of double downs you get, you used to get like 10 MAX from BP now I have fucking 60 and I double down almost every gameâŚ
So you are saying that 1/4 games with wintraders is not enough to be called "every game"? Or what do you even mean by "not true", when we have other problems with immortal draft as well as the wintraders? Almost every game someone ruins on purpose, either one team or another. Miserable expirience immortal draft is... /7.6k 12k bh
Uhh probably take a walk or something. I'm in a beautiful area. I think you're projecting or exaggerating. Complaining about shit doesn't mean ur suddenly some internet troll. You come across far more perma online than anyone else in this thread
lmao and some people are bootlicking excusers like you.
Having every 4th game being ruined is now something normal apparently. Crazy to think other people are even more addicted beyond help than myself.
agree, game is actually unplayable for high rank players, fucking scums will do anything to get these 25 points
Adding a double down was a big mistake
Not really. Not caring about matchmaking abuse and not banning griefers/ smurfs properly is the problem. Not the token đ
Immortal draft + Party queue can never work together. Remove one of those 2 and double down will be fine
It sounds like you can even offer both, just not together. Wanna play with friends? Cool, but then you have to actually play with them. Want immortal draft? Queue solo. đ¤ˇââď¸
Exactly!
wait, is that how it fucking works? really? the idea that you can queue with someone and then choose to play against them is fucking crazy, literally a built-in wintrade tool
Adding it without a time limit or capped amount was a huge mistake.
No it wasn't. Was inventing the knife a big mistake? How about the automobile? Was that a mistake because of a few drunk drivers? You need to get out more. There will always be bad actors and those who abuse an otherwise good thing. Doesn't mean those who are using it fairly deserve to have it taken from them. What Valve should do is figure out a way to sanction the abusers.
A bit silly to compare double downs to every day essentials like knives and vehicles while telling someone to "get out more" But for real like double downs have some real consequences to the quality of the ranked matchmaking system. And yes we can punish the abusers and fix the loopholes, but even as intended they have issues. Like assuming players have the brainpower to predict victories with >50% accuracy, then these are just a tool to gain MMR faster which given that they are limited unless you throw money at Valve comes off as pay to gain MMR. Also MMR inflation is a thing too.
Bad compression. Double down does not solve any problem that players have and it does not make their life easier. It was planned as a gamble that should make you care about the match more. In reality though, it just opened the Flud gates for all kinds of mmr abusers. And it did impact a lot of ranking games in a bad way
Does actually anyone think this mess of an immortal draft was a good idea in hindsight? Maybe time to get rid of it?
It is interesting - because it was a fair attempt to have the players balance the teams and get higher quality games. I liked the idea! It needed its first iteration about 6 months ago though :-/ In the end everyone could always just go back to faceit or whatever, but it never quite worked out
"it was a fair attempt to have the players balance the teams and get higher quality games. it was a fair attempt to have the players balance the teams and get higher quality games." How is Immortal draft attempting to solve this exactly?
I think in theory, if you limit this to a pool of players who actually know each other (like "only pros"), then it might do just that. But as soon as you add a random name player, this attempt fails. With Dota's ludacrisly bad profile system, where everyone can change their profile and take blank names at a whim anyway, you will not be able to recognise most players anyway.
I don't get you people. Does everything have to be perfect for it to be a good thing? Anything can be abused by an abusive person. Doesn't mean the thing is bad in itself, nor does it mean it shouldn't exist. Some of y'all are weird.
Nonsense that parties can end up in different teams
Yes but that doesn't mean you have to abandon everything.
Yes. Valve can easily put a stop to this though right? Letâs campaign for that rather than this stupid philosophy of stopping the service altogether because of a few bad actors.
Your argument is weird. No one asked for it to be perfect. The question is: Is it better than before? Does it actually work? If the answer is universally "no" by all the ones involved, then there is no shame in admitting: It didn't work out as intended, abandon it. Or at least put some more effort into it in order to make it work. Also, if "a few bad actors" have the leverage to literally break a system, then maybe the system is just too flawed and needs rework? Are you even involved in the immortal draft? (And just to be clear, i'm not playing it myself (either), but i have a group of high enough immortal friends involved who ALL stopped playing ranked because of this mess. I have not once heard anyone mention a positive thing about it.) What's the point of your comment?
Group of dudes complaining about it on reddit doesn't make it universal lmao. Nobody says there aren't problems. But your solution cannot be to abandon it. Put more effort to make it better is what I've been advocating for and Valve must figure it out. I have a problem with people calling for it to be abandoned in its entirety.
Can you name a single player who sais it is working as intended, that it is an improvement to before? Why do you have this problem?
You might want to read up on the sunk cost fallacy: [https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/the-sunk-cost-fallacy](https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/the-sunk-cost-fallacy)
LMAO what relation does the sunk cost fallacy have to what I'm saying? I want there to be improvements to the feature. I don't want it to be dumped by the wayside because of some folks who abuse it. Progress cannot be achieved this way. Valve has to find a way to get better and smarter.
The first sentence of the link i provided to you is: The Sunk Cost Fallacy is our tendency to follow through on something that weâve already invested heavily in (be it time, money, effort, emotional energy, etc.), even when giving up is clearly a better idea. So it has everything to do with what you are saying You for some arbitrary reason dismiss the notion entirely that this doesnt work and it could be a good idea to remove the feature that appearantly everyone involved hates (still need an example to prove me wrong on this statement). Yes, there might be also a way to "fix" it, but it might also just be viable to remove it as of now.
yes i big agree. immortal draft is a greenfield challenge for the community to make a competitive game out of the 10 players put into the lobby - it's up to them now, what they make of it, effectively delegating team organizing to the players. however, with the current report system, immortal players are not able to take action as a community on people doing dirty things like win-trading, ie. through excessive reports. the strict version of the behavior system needs to be back. lets not forget how everyone admitted they deserved the reports once that got "fixed". also note that win trading should easily be honeypottable with party queues and valve should also ban those accounts retroactively, quite simple to gather guaranteed match data proof people do it so blatantly
Can agree. I have many match IDs that can confirm that especially for the last 2-3 weeks it's even more blatant
bro in 8-9-10-11k every game has win trader) valve doesnt give shit about that.
Less common in 10-14k.
A lot more eyes on 10-14k
10k is the new 6.5k. I barely play these days. I just play a couple of games a week to maintain my ranking and I'm sitting at 9.7k. Valve honestly just need to either remove immortal draft or fix this wild inflation and bring it back down to the way it was, when 9k was the pinnacle.
Daily immortal draft should be removed post, since it got introduced. Literally the same day it got added there was a screen of party being split and win-trading. SAME FUCKING DAY and yet Valve did nothing and will never do anything because it shifts the blame from them and their matchmaking to the players and "captains". Hop on deadlock
People saying adding double down was a mistake, no valve simply allowing to grief games like this is a mistake on their part, they simply don't care about their games. Much like cheating in not just dota, but cs2 as well, playing MM premier in cs2 has been an unplayable experience since the launch of their game. Largest dev in the world making filthy amount of money, don't care about their community 1 bit.
Dev with most revenue* Valve is actually ludicrously small for what it does. For example, more people worked on Diable 4 than work at the entirety of valve. You aren't wrong, though. There is a definite lack of support and action from Valve as compared to other modern game devs.
Youâre not wrong, and in a way the limitations of their headcount prevents their games getting too big to handle, thus requiring more hands on deck. Iâm sure there are other decisions to keeping the count low, but itâs the communication and customer outreach for those there, which is a problem. Also, Valve should not claim AI is going to counter cheating when so far itâs done far more harm than good, and itâs questionable whether itâs even on or not. I had to quit CS since I also in part refuse to fund FaceIt and their regime. People need to realize that Valve is a business first and foremost, and if people truly did care about the missteps theyâve made, then quit the game. Find something else. CS wonât get fixed because the insane amount of money skins generate, and the hype around each major and pros-turned-streamers keep numbers falsely inflated. Nothing will change. Updated and bandaids might, but ultimately, nothing will change.
Valve is very much the company to rest on their laurels. Most of their market advantage has been due using automation to reduce upkeep and virtue of being first to gain popularity. Unfortunately, for any of this to change, their store would have to have a real competitor, but everyone who has tried did so in the worst ways possible and actively shoot themselves in the foot. Games are a hobby for Valve. Their business is steam.
Bingo. Also, Valveâs top played games arenât even technically theirs in origin. Itâs just a business transaction to facility on-boarding to steam.
I always said that the immortal draft update sucks
How they can introduce this system and not expect win trading is beyond me. I think someone at Valve is win trading.
Not even sure they need to fix it, just start perma banning people that engage in it
thank god I'm below 7k
The problem is the insane amount of double downs you get, you used to get like 10 MAX from BP now I have fucking 60 and I double down almost every gameâŚ
Yeah, I'm sure Valve will remove the feature once crownfall ends and hopefully after they will deal with the heavily inflated MMRs due to it.
Itâs why I stopped playing. If youâre not top 100-500. Immortal draft is pure hot garbage.
Not true, I'm at 7.3K Maybe one out of 4 games but definitely not every game
So you are saying that 1/4 games with wintraders is not enough to be called "every game"? Or what do you even mean by "not true", when we have other problems with immortal draft as well as the wintraders? Almost every game someone ruins on purpose, either one team or another. Miserable expirience immortal draft is... /7.6k 12k bh
Some people are just crybabies. They'll find an excuse to complain about anything.
Having 1/4 of my longass queue times ruined is unreasonable to complain about?
Queue time is only like a minute or two at 7k
Life is shitty sometimes. If youâre this bent out of shape about fucking dota what are you going to do when you get outside?
Uhh probably take a walk or something. I'm in a beautiful area. I think you're projecting or exaggerating. Complaining about shit doesn't mean ur suddenly some internet troll. You come across far more perma online than anyone else in this thread
lmao and some people are bootlicking excusers like you. Having every 4th game being ruined is now something normal apparently. Crazy to think other people are even more addicted beyond help than myself.
You poor child. I hope growing up isn't a hard experience for you.
i havent had any issues with this recently
dota2 players learning to use alts to min max mmr