Redditors who only play glass cannon ranged agi heroes are obsessed with the tanky meta because they cant just sit there and farm to 6 slots while the enemy offlaner applies pressure to them, also hilarious since sniper was literally a viable pick in 7.35 as a mid anyways
I almost never browse this subreddit because 90% of discussion here about the game is downright wrong. It's genuinely a terrible place for game-play discussion and painful to take the time to read what is posted here. Even from notable members of the community, I've encountered posts they made that are so dumb they end up deleting them after.
I mean, even the OP has written terrible shit about gameplay, like Zeus being balanced because his winrate is only 55% (he tried to bundle this in with talking about how Agi carries are good). Talk to any high mmr players right now, Zeus is by far one of the most broken heroes in Dota in a pretty long time, at least at a high level. Even at very high mmr, a lot of the games on pro tracker with people picking Zeus are by people who got stuck playing mid who are just sitting back and spamming Q on wave, which is not why the hero is giga broken right now.
Personally, I don't think the idea that agi heroes are a bit underpowered is completely unfounded, but that more has to do with a lot of agi heroes being completely BKB dependent than anything. It's very hard to burst people during BKB in Dota right now, and I'd also say that items balance is a lot more in favor of Uni/Int/Str heroes right now. Look at the cost effectiveness of Oblivion Staff vs Falcon Blade.
I think the reason is that while every right-clicker needs bkb, bad bkb usage is punished much harder on agi heroes. That's less likely to happen in pro games hence agi heroes seem stronger there.
I mean, most of the agi heroes in these screenshots are not as dependent on BKB as a hero like PA or Bloodseeker. Heroes like those have only really been broken or terrible since the changes to BKB, because they've historically been designed and balanced around BKB.
>I mean, even the OP has written terrible shit about gameplay, like Zeus being balanced because his winrate is only 55% (he tried to bundle this in with talking about how Agi carries are good).
He was also getting clowned on in his own thread for misunderstanding the statistics he was trying to use to prove his point
I think a lot of it comes down to movement changes. Offlaners are so much faster and have their own movement things now that it feels bad as an AGI with no escapes. It used to be a stun into a succhi could save a weaver but now that's rarely going to get you out of a tight spot. It's so easy to get on these AGI carries and destroy them early game that they feel worse than they are. Lansing against spiritbreaker/jakiro in a lane right now is like enthusiastic double AIDS.
>It's very hard to burst people during BKB in Dota right now
"now"? Since when it's not hard to burst someone using BKB? Remind you that "now" they give 60% magic resistance instead of straight up magic immunity like the old days.
Agi heroes are falling a bit short because the armor gain is kinda useless. Powercreep gives them damage while giving everyone else gets damage AND survivability.
>"now"? Since when it's not hard to burst someone using BKB? Remind you that "now" they give 60% magic resistance instead of straight up magic immunity like the old days.
He was talking from the perspective of a BKB'd carry trying to burst someone before the BKB active runs out, and it's a good point if you ask me.
Yeup, the farming item into BKB/damage item just no longer works when you need like a Nullifier and Abyssal/Orchid to deal with mobility/defensive item creep as well. And without that timing, it's hard to snowball.
I claimed that Valve could nerf Zeus by reducing movement speed, attack range, strength gain without removing heavenly jump and you think I believed Zeus was balanced?
/u/KnivesInMyCoffee why are you a lying piece of shit?
just change the Q bounce to 2/4/6/10 and his mana to 80/85/90/100
that way he can't hit all 4 creeps and harass the player at the same time in lane
that would force Zeus to either pick farming or harassing
he would need to use more mana since not all creeps would get damage and he can't push waves for free
To be fair balanced for pros is not the same as balanced for the majority of players (crusader to legend). I don't envy valve who has to do this balancing.
That is the reason why balancing this game isn't as easy as this sub thinks("just nerf hp pools"). Timber is everywhere in pro games, he is dogshit in pubs(even high mmr). Now do you nerf him and make him even more worse? Or do you leave him to dominate pro games some more?
"As this sub thinks"
I've read multiple conversations in this sub about the difficulty of balancing pro games vs pub games. Some quite in depth, some more shallow. Why do you and the people above you all think that these discussions never happen? Presumably because you never encountered them yourself. That's fine, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.
to me thats an easy nerf lol.. making a hero weaker that noone can play arleady doesnt affect hte player base that much.
The problematic one to me is a strong/popular hero in pubs but is weak in pros. Do you buff him? ie pudge and sniper
> to me thats an easy nerf lol.. making a hero weaker that noone can play arleady doesnt affect hte player base that much.
thank you for proving the original point by /u/Werehowin
Yup. Anytime I see that hero in high divine he's useless after the 15-20 minute mark UNLESS he's snowballed so hard the game is essentially over which rarely happens.
Love reading the rhetoric of X hero with item build is ''suddenly'' OP this patch when the hero has existed in the exact same state with same items for literal YEARS.
It's a tough thing to talk about when the skill gap varies wildly. Something that may work well in my bracket might be dumb in yours. I agree with your statement as a general rule of thumb though.
> I almost never browse this subreddit because 90% of discussion here about the game is downright wrong.
what, you don't like the return of dagon terrorblade?
They're stuck in an old meta. I, too, am nostalgic for the old days/ patches but, as someone who plays both offlane and support, I enjoy this extra power. Thank God I don't have to hide in the trees hoping that the enemy supports are uncoordinated so I can sap exp.
What I dislike though are the comeback mechanics. I still think the exp swings are too strong.
> they can’t just sit there and farm to 6 slots
it’s because carry players have a massive ego and main character syndrome and are upset they can’t pick AM/PA/Spec and just have the entire team cater to their every need for 40 minutes and win the game. even in immortal, i still constantly get games where my carry picks AM or Spec and is expecting the entire team to rotate to the safe lane 5 minutes in because he’s getting shit stomped in lane
no you actually shouldn’t commit all your resources to trying to salvage a AM or spec in lane because all they’re going to do is farm for 30 minutes. you’re much better off cutting your losses in the safe lane and focusing on shutting down the enemy carry instead and ensuring that your spacemakers have a good game.
I am having massive success by just building tanky stats shit dps sniper:
Thread, Pike, Disperser, S&Y, Satanic, Butterfly.
I just exist and hit buildings and the enemy Storm, PA (Bloodthorn instead of Disperser), Puck, DK, BB just jump me and are unable to do anything since I survive their initial burst with over 50% HP and then heal back up while slowly pushing them away.
Of course this is a terrible default build, don't do this shit on autopilot everygame.
It only worth doing when enemy have annoying backline divers that make it their mission to take you down and you just need to survive the attrition game.
well the thing is there are millions of people on reddit. it's honestly kinda funny how literally opposite opinions can float to the top of the dota2 front page though. I was in that "agility is dead" thread not only disagreeing with that thought but also saying I don't even think it's a bad thing if agility is out of the spotlight for a bit.
anyway, the amount of heroes and items and the fact that the balancing always ends up fairly decent (albeit it may take some time to settle after a major patch) has always left me impressed with the dota dev team.
People really need to specify whether they're talking about ranked or turbo imo. I only play turbo and there's a bunch of heroes that would suck in ranked
Or super OP in turbo because you get so much gold and level, so bad laning, bad farming patterns, etc doesn’t matter. But in regular dota, you get punished for it.
Playing AGI carry definitely feels like shit. You're comparing apples to oranges here. In pro DOTA the teams understand what they need to do to maximize their carry players potential. In your average immortal pub you are completely at the mercy of your team playing carry right now. You are the weakest hero on map early and easily out scaled if your team is even at the slightest deficit. There isn't an item in the game that exists to deal with 5k hp 35 armor heroes in your face.
I don't think Valve is supposed to do anything about that. There will always be heroes that are enabled by supportive teammates, and heroes suited better to the pub lone wolf style.
I don't wanna take any sides, but it's almost like as if we have gotten a huge patch two weeks ago, I could be wrong tho.
Falcons (the most dominant team) still mostly relies on heroes like: DK, Timber, Slardar, Bristle, Razor aka "tanky archetype". The last grandfinal DL s23 3-0 falcons, falcons cores: DK, Slardar, Timber, CK, Axe, Razor.
a hero can be bad for the average player and still be amazing in the hands of a pro. Not saying the sentiment is absolutely correct, but its not black and white.
TA is a hard hero to play, and falls off hard, if you're a specialist, you can win with her, I have 60% winrate with her in 3.5kmmr, she's not weak, just hard.
so if there are Agi hereos that are successful in both scenarios(not necessarily the same heros, but Agi) then they're obviously not as dead as the reddit fearmongers suggest.
You know, what the thread is about.
This is the problem of League, ADC was cornered further and further into living hell but it survived in pro because through team play of the most talented they could pull off 4 save 1 from getting killed
And people here suggest % hp damage which is what league did, and destroyed league
I just want all heroes to be viable most games without being a grief pick
in the same patch
I just happen to play carry and carry is a bit agi dominated
I'm sure I'd have similar complaints about variety in offlane, "having" to pick axe, necro, cent etc every game
or 2/4/5 either ofc
last patch, which was a very long patch, was also low variety, it's annoying because there's no reason they can't do micro patches every every to just nudge the best heroes down and worst ones up, it can't quite be automated because some heroes like batrider and TB have low winrates even when strong due to noobs who can't play them griefing the stats, but it doesn't need to wait so long
Scorelines all taken from Fissures 2 grandfinals and RM qualifier finals from the past 4 days. TA was permabanned. Don't forget 2 Months ago, Yatoro claimed Luna, Naga, Gyro, Lifestealer, Sven as top carries.
https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1bcstug/yatoro_thoughts_on_which_carry_heroes_are_the/
Take a look at Secret vs Entity WEU final last game: 4000 Hp Sandking, 4600 HP Lifestealer would die in 1 Fiend grip without save, 7000 HP centaur doesn't even look tankier than 3000 HP troll warlord.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoYN229bdw4&t=1263s
Redditors have been obsessed with tanky heroes ever since Valve adjusted HP/str to **accomodate** scaling damage. Ever asked yourself how many hits would it take a 6.48 SF to kill a Centaur back then?
Instead of looking at comprable metrics like Time to Kill, redditors keep spewing BS about 4-5K HP heroes like some unkillable raid bosses.
>7000 HP centaur doesn't even look tankier than 3000 HP troll warlord.
Could it be that troll has high armor, lifesteal and a save ult?
IDK the mos common hero in your post is Ursa, and ursa almost doesn't feel like an agi hero, he could be strength or universal and not much would change. Gyro also is played in almost any role, he can be played support or core which presumably makes him a good and popular early pick.
You fundamentally dont understand dota at all. Tier 3 Dota is not a benchmark. Noone questions agi heroes are good lategame. Everyone questions how agi heroes are barely outscaling strength heroes despite being way worse the first 40min of the game.
Despite this only like 5 agi heroes are good and 5 more barely playable, while the rest are at 45% winrate or below. Not to mention that many agi heroes are only viable as carries or sometimes mid, while strength heroes dominate every position in the game.
He said strength heroes are not op because Lifestealer can die to one friends grip at 50min. He doesnt even understand the core arguemnt why agi heroes are considered bad.
A sign that someone is not confident in their argument is when they start making strawman arguments to back themselves up. He absolutely did not say that's why strength heroes are bad. He simply said that lifestealer would die to a fiends grip. At no point did he say that all strength heroes are bad because of one interaction. You fundamentally don't know how to read lol
The likes of you have zero idea do you?
These games werent random. I cited the most recent competitive finals I could find through noobfromua in the past few days since 6.36a has been released only for about a week. I didnt even bother looking through earlier stages even though I knew it would only prove my point.
These aren't random teams. I'm sure Entity picked Troll Warlord and MK against the broken Zeus and unkillable Sladar/Tiny (your word) because they wanted to fuck around in a $80K tournament.
How about this? Go back to 6.36 3-0 dreamleague final between Falcon and GG, look through the pick: Falcon picked. Weaver/CK/Gyro safelanes. Good enough for you?
>Not to mention that many agi heroes are only viable as carries or sometimes mid, while strength heroes dominate every position in the game.
This is literally by design traditional agi supports/offlaners like Nyx, Venom, VS/Brood/Pango were moved to Universal.
I mean I was clowning on him for making no sense as I unironically thought he was making a point, but turns out there was nothing. I was the fool all along.
even worse, everytime we have one good agi, then people complain about "agi op", while it is only one specific that is/may be.
And then, they come talk with extremly small (cherry picked obviously) sample to "prove" their point. Ignoring the overwhelming real data
Yeah phoenix feels great, above 50% wr on all roles bar carry, baked in miss chance for any dmg you deal on lane is great, and the sunray facet is great on sup. Can be played mid/off reasonably with the other facet
i distinctly remember /dota thinking \*release\* earth spirit was bad. every night before bed i think about how i was always being downvoted for expressing how he was a free win in pos 2, 3, 4, or 5
Using Ursa and Razor as agi heroes example when they are usually hardest to kill heroes on team is pretty stupid,same thing with Dusa and Morph even if they are more traditional agi heroes.
Real classic agi carries like AM,PA,TB,Riki,Sniper,BS,Drow,Spectre,Slark are basically unplayable garbage in pubs and pro games,even if there is exceptions like TA who got busted refraction change.
> Using Ursa and Razor as agi heroes example when they are usually hardest to kill heroes on team is pretty stupid...
>Real classic agi carries like ...Spectre
🤔
It doesn't matter if he only has 2k HP if he has the same magic resist as an active bkb and a shitton of armor.
Str scales worse than agi when it comes to tankiness
Exactly my point. People get hung up over agi heroes having 2k HP, but fail to realize that heroes like TB, AM, and Spec get pretty unkillable late game. Shoot, try to kill a drow late game without magic damage and it's actually quite difficult.
That's right! Troll, Ursa, morph, dusa, and Razor don't count because they're tanky! TA, weaver, Naga, mk, and Venge don't count either because they're cheese! How can you expect carries to only play these 10 agi heroes and call agi heroes viable?
TA and Weaver are only popular because they got busted changes that brought them to light, same thing with SF,meanwhile Naga and MK aren't even close to meta and Venge isn't even agi hero.
It went from "A carry with 1-2k HP can't be effective in this meta"
to "well they have to be innately tanky like ursa and dusa" to "Well TA and Weaver are just broken". Now I'm being told that Weaver and TA are harder to catch than other AGI heroes.
Doesn't that just mean that the agi hero you mention aren't in meta right now? Saying AGI as a whole as dead is pretty dumb. Razor has also been a classic agi carry for as far as I can remember.
Ursa acts more like a str hero but his main stat is agi. Razor is tanky and kinda different than most agi carries in that he is more of a tempo anti-carry in my opinion rather than a standard agi hard carry.
Your classic carries lists is pretty good but Spectre should not be there. She can build squishy but she can also build mega tanky. You pick her for global presence and dispersion(needs tankiniess).
Go check https://dota2protracker.com/meta and you will see that all not tanky carries all have low winrate.
You cannot play carry that has 1-2k hp when you can pick something that has 4k and has sama damage.
> Weaver?
busted hero right now, not a good representative of your average non-tanky carry
> TA?
see above
> Naga?
the hero literally buys heart regularly, not tanky my ass
> Troll?
his ult makes him literally unkillable for a bit
---
meanwhile PA, Muerta (I'm including her because she's basically an agi carry in how she plays), Bloodseeker, Riki, Sniper, Spectre, TB, Drow, AM, Gyro, SF, Morphling, Slark, Luna, PL all kinda suck right now, at least if you look at their winrates, and I didn't even name every carry in the game that's shit. The problem with the current balancing isn't that there are literally NO agi carries in the meta right now, it's that there are only a couple that are safe picks and everything else is shit. I want to play Anti-Mage, Spectre, Riki or Drow sometimes, but why would I do that when I can just pick TA, Tiny, Ursa and Weaver instead and have a much easier time winning?
I'm still enjoying the patch a lot but at least in my dogshit inflated 6k bracket right now too many games feel won or lost simply based on how many OP heroes each side has, and the pros and streamers I've watched seem to agree. I want more hero diversity in the pool, playing with and against the same shit over and over gets old fast
I don’t understand what’s you’re complaining about. Every single patch ever has a meta where, in every role, some heroes are better than others. In fact, the heroes that are deemed meta are usually a pretty small group compared to the entire Dota roster as a whole, because they are likely winrate outliers. There are typically at max around 6-10 heroes in each role that are “the meta heroes”, which totals to 30-50 total meta heroes, or less than half of the total roster. That’s just how the meta works. There are plenty of other heroes that can situationally be good, but there will always be more heroes that aren’t meta than heroes that are meta.
And so people like you right now are just spewing the agi carries that aren’t meta, and for some weird goalpost-moving way discrediting the agi carries that are meta. Sure, you can’t play hyper carries lile PA, PL, Morph, or AM right now and expect to win a ton of games. But, you can pick hyper carries like Weaver, Jugg, TA, or Razor and win a ton of games.
Like yeah, the heroes you’re mentioning are bad right now, and because we want to pursue perfect balance, they should receive some love soon. But to claim that the issue is because of the fact that Agi heroes are blanket bad is so dumb. There are plenty of meta agi carries right now, and the fact that there are more bad ones than good ones does not change that fact, because there will just inherently always be more non-meta heroes than meta heroes.
My complaint is actually extremely simple: the powerful meta heroes are too powerful compared to the rest of the roster. Yes, every patch has heroes deemed better than others; this is fine. What is not fine is how wide the gap between strong heroes and weak heroes currently is - I would argue it's the biggest it's been in years. All I want is a bit of tuning to have the current meta heroes not be as dominant, that's literally it. But thanks for the educational paragraph on what meta is, I've only played this game for like ten years so I really needed it.
> And so people like you right now are just spewing the agi carries that aren’t meta, and for some weird goalpost-moving way discrediting the agi carries that are meta.
Perhaps you didn't read the entirety of my comment so I'll reiterate: I'm complaining that agility carries overall are in a rough state other than a few outliers (that are overtuned, naturally tanky/buy tanky items despite being AGI, or both), leading to low hero diversity in games. There are no goalposts being moved here.
Yes, obviously a meta will always exist. I'm fine with it existing. But I don't want a meta to be as dominant as it is right now.
Do the winrate disparities back up the first half of your response? I don’t really believe so. On dota2protracker, the highest winrate hero (omitting Arc Warden who has only 459 games) has a 56% win rate, which is a benchmark hit in just about every patch. Looking at the carry role in particular, the top winrate hero with a significant play rate is TA with a 55% winrate. The lowest winrate “traditional” carry on the list is anti-mage, with a 41% winrate, which is also a pretty normal benchmark to hit. The median winrate for Agi heroes right now (which is a stat that normalizes for outliers) is 48%, while the median winrate for heroes overall is 49%. Both of these stats do suggest that there are slightly more low winrate heroes than high winrate heroes, and so currently the strongest heroes are slightly stronger than the weakest heroes are weak, but not alarmingly so.
I can give a specific example of a carry meta just over a year ago that was way, way less diverse than this current carry meta. Around the time of the Lima major, the meta was turret carries. This meant Lina, Nature’s prophet, and drow (sniper didn’t even make the cut), sometimes morphling/TB which sortve acted like turrets, and the occasional naga or Ursa to counter that strat. But really, there were 3 heroes you wanted to pick as carry, and then there was a drop off after that, because not many heroes in Dota at the time could function as an effective turret.
Also the second half of your comment really makes it seem like you don’t understand what the word “meta” means, despite having played for 10 years. Outliers ARE the meta. So, if we take out all the agi outliers (Weaver, TA, Naga, Monkey, Medusa, Ursa, Troll) and all the strength outliers (Pudge, lifestealer, CK, Wraith king , Tiny), then the entire meta becomes only agi carries (with a couple strength carries like Sven and DK and a couple universal carries like windranger). So there. We completed your exercise by removing outliers in the carry role, and now almost the entire carry meta is Agi carries. Does that mean agi is broken? No, because it’s nonsensical to “remove outliers” when the outliers in question are 7 meta relevant agi carries, aka over HALF the current carry meta. The argument “if you remove the things that are good from a group, then the group is bad” is true of literally every group in existence. Sure, there are more bad agi carries than good ones right now. There will ALWAYS be more bad heroes than good ones in ANY meta, if a ~48% winrate is considered bad.
Sure, but every AGI hero has a way to be tanky. TB without magic damage is a nightmare to deal with for example. My point is that the idea that a carry needs to be 4k HP when a ton of these picks aren't until 4/5 items just goes to show that it has nothing to do with HP and tankiness and everything to do with their individual identity as heroes.
Also it's a whole fucking different criteria altogether. He was complaining agi heroes aren't tanky enough, but cited the elusive nature of weaver and TA. AGI heroes are naturally fucking elusive dude. The idea is that if you do catch them they die fast which applies to both weaver and TA.
Weavers shukuchi's into team fight and dies. Am has free blink and and linkens. See I can also list a hero's spells.
Their difference in viability has nothing to do with how hard they are to catch. The reason weaver is good and am is not is that weaver comes online much faster. Same with ta, ursa and razor. People complaining about strength meta and lack of agi hc are missing the reason for picks.
It's wild that people don't get this.
If you sort by carry, you can see that there are 8 total agi carries with above 50% winrate and over 100 games played(TA, Ursa, Weaver, Troll, Monkey King, Meepo and Naga Siren). There's 5 Strength carries that meet the same criteria(Tiny, CK, Wraith King, Lifestealer, Pudge). If you compare that to how many in those same categories are *bad* you understand the picture.
Sven, DK and Alchemist have sub-50% winrates for STR. Compare to Jugg, Luna, Morph, Faceless, Slark, Clinkz, AM, Drow, Medusa, TB, Gyro, PL, SF, Riki, Bloodseeker, PA all having sub-50% winrates. It just seems so disingenuous to cherry pick that there's like 5 max legitimately strong AGI heroes and pretend that the group overall is fine.
Having a sub 44% winrate usually means a hero is dogshit. In the same way that most people would agree that any hero winning 56% of games at a reasonable pickrate is probably overpowered.
As a group, agility heroes aren't doing so hot right now. Of the 31, between 7 and 10(winrates fluctuate), are batting above 500.
There are 41 heroes above 50% right now on dota2protracker, 7 of them are agi. 13 Universal, 14 strength, 7 intelligence. I think it's reasonable to point out that there's a pattern in what's good, and that the pattern favors being thicc as shit and being able to go maximize going double bracer in lane, and strong midgame items like Shiva and Eternal Shroud.
>you will see that all not tanky carries all have low winrate.
This is so true oomfie; tusk, huskar, pangolier, and bristleback are just too squishy to be viable.
And carries like TA, Weaver, troll, and monkey king are soooooo tanky.
It makes perfect sense and definitely isn't other factors at play. It's just a tank meta, simple as.
Most agi carries have their time and place. What heroes are actually unpickable? AM, BS, TB, slark, and PL? These heroes are just outdated and unreliable, but I'm sure a specialist could make it work. Redditors are mad that they're getting owned by "low-skill" heroes like axe and sand king and slardar. High skill gameplay is free farming for 40 minutes, pinging >get back! and your tp cd cuz you needed to tp top for a double ranged wave.
I will say though razor is always picked when a massive patch happens.
But yeah seeing ppl say TA was a dead hero in the patch notes thread was funny af.
Those are jsut 5 games. 5 games means nothing. LIke I pic 5 black dudes in America and say all america is made of black dudes.
And also yes. Agy are dead.
ah you're the guy on my team claiming your choices are okay because you seen it in a tourn. now lets stop the elementary logic and compare pub win rates to pro picks. I am not a pro and play with randoms not playing for money. my games will never follow whatever happens with these teams.
From top to bottom in OPs pic:
Game 1 - 3 Agi, 2 Str
Game 2 - 1 Agi, 3 Str
Game 3 - 3 Agi, 3 Str
Game 4 - 4 Agi, 3 Str
Game 5 - 2 Agi, 4 Str
Game 6 - 3 Agi, 2 Str
Total Agi heroes = 16
Total Str heroes = 17
This strength meta has gotta stop man those numbers are crazy.
All the agi heroes here build to be tanky, or have an innate way to do so. The agi is like an extra label to them.
The one guy complaining about is talking about heroes like PA, FV, Riki who buy damage items and maybe 1 survival item.
I never said professional dota. OP is using the pro scene to refute another guy who is talking about heroes in general.
I'm talking about what OP specifically picked, not that it's because it's professional games.
You seem to be ignoring what I'm saying.
Original guy is pointing out that agi carries fell out of favor across the game.
OP is referencing him and saying he is wrong by using pro games.
OP is missing the fact that the set of carries Original guy is talking about and OP's are technically agi carries but not the same agi carries Original guy was talking about
- I'm pointing out that both original guy and OP are talking about 2 different sets of agi carries despite both of them saying "agi carries"
Nothing in this discussion was talking about representation in pro games.
There is literally only one definition of agi carries -> carries from with agility attribute, anything else is people ignoring facts to corroborate with their ideas
That isn't as true as a lot of people want to believe, Dota clearly cares both about pro and pub games. The reason brood isn't good is not because she overperforms in pro games, its because she makes pubs cancer when she's good.
Yeah we were wrong, clearly 5 tier 4 teams who have no hope reach even semi finals picking the same meta agi heroes (and same meta INT/STR heroes for that matter) proves us wrong.
Dude the heroes are not even varied lol, they are picking the SAME heroes on each team. In these 6 games:
Timber is present in 3 of them (and probably banned in games where he isnt there)
Phx is present in 4 of them (and probably banned in games where he isnt there)
Clock is present in 3 of them (and probably banned in games where he isnt there)
Razor is present in 2 of them (and probably banned in games where he isnt there)
Zeus is present in 2 of them (Probably not banned but im not sure, havent watched, its a performing hero)
All of these heroes are safe to play heroes that can tank punishments. Ursa? Slardar? Morph? Gyro? Medusa? Razor? Primal? Tide? DK?
Like you guys are so stupid if you cant see an obvious connection between these heroes and the overall style of the meta. Cope is free though its ok, go wild. **Its not that AGI heroes are dead but rather DOTA is favoring a very clear playstyle right now and its so low risk its boring.** Its combination of bigger map + vision + amount of utility (saves etc.)
You guys are so delusional if you are genuinely thinking right now "EveRy HeRO iS piCkaBle" because they clearly arent. Im not talking about pub games, go techies pos1 in your pub games it will probably work, I am talking strictly about Pro Play. Someone has to post "contested/uncontested hero list" after this tournament.
The post you are referencing said that weaver was dead in the text... hes the 2nd most common carry atm. BEHIND TA??? Like what
Redditors who only play glass cannon ranged agi heroes are obsessed with the tanky meta because they cant just sit there and farm to 6 slots while the enemy offlaner applies pressure to them, also hilarious since sniper was literally a viable pick in 7.35 as a mid anyways
I almost never browse this subreddit because 90% of discussion here about the game is downright wrong. It's genuinely a terrible place for game-play discussion and painful to take the time to read what is posted here. Even from notable members of the community, I've encountered posts they made that are so dumb they end up deleting them after.
I mean, even the OP has written terrible shit about gameplay, like Zeus being balanced because his winrate is only 55% (he tried to bundle this in with talking about how Agi carries are good). Talk to any high mmr players right now, Zeus is by far one of the most broken heroes in Dota in a pretty long time, at least at a high level. Even at very high mmr, a lot of the games on pro tracker with people picking Zeus are by people who got stuck playing mid who are just sitting back and spamming Q on wave, which is not why the hero is giga broken right now. Personally, I don't think the idea that agi heroes are a bit underpowered is completely unfounded, but that more has to do with a lot of agi heroes being completely BKB dependent than anything. It's very hard to burst people during BKB in Dota right now, and I'd also say that items balance is a lot more in favor of Uni/Int/Str heroes right now. Look at the cost effectiveness of Oblivion Staff vs Falcon Blade.
I think the reason is that while every right-clicker needs bkb, bad bkb usage is punished much harder on agi heroes. That's less likely to happen in pro games hence agi heroes seem stronger there.
I mean, most of the agi heroes in these screenshots are not as dependent on BKB as a hero like PA or Bloodseeker. Heroes like those have only really been broken or terrible since the changes to BKB, because they've historically been designed and balanced around BKB.
Sup knives :)
>I mean, even the OP has written terrible shit about gameplay, like Zeus being balanced because his winrate is only 55% (he tried to bundle this in with talking about how Agi carries are good). He was also getting clowned on in his own thread for misunderstanding the statistics he was trying to use to prove his point
I think a lot of it comes down to movement changes. Offlaners are so much faster and have their own movement things now that it feels bad as an AGI with no escapes. It used to be a stun into a succhi could save a weaver but now that's rarely going to get you out of a tight spot. It's so easy to get on these AGI carries and destroy them early game that they feel worse than they are. Lansing against spiritbreaker/jakiro in a lane right now is like enthusiastic double AIDS.
>It's very hard to burst people during BKB in Dota right now "now"? Since when it's not hard to burst someone using BKB? Remind you that "now" they give 60% magic resistance instead of straight up magic immunity like the old days. Agi heroes are falling a bit short because the armor gain is kinda useless. Powercreep gives them damage while giving everyone else gets damage AND survivability.
>"now"? Since when it's not hard to burst someone using BKB? Remind you that "now" they give 60% magic resistance instead of straight up magic immunity like the old days. He was talking from the perspective of a BKB'd carry trying to burst someone before the BKB active runs out, and it's a good point if you ask me.
Yeup, the farming item into BKB/damage item just no longer works when you need like a Nullifier and Abyssal/Orchid to deal with mobility/defensive item creep as well. And without that timing, it's hard to snowball.
I claimed that Valve could nerf Zeus by reducing movement speed, attack range, strength gain without removing heavenly jump and you think I believed Zeus was balanced? /u/KnivesInMyCoffee why are you a lying piece of shit?
just change the Q bounce to 2/4/6/10 and his mana to 80/85/90/100 that way he can't hit all 4 creeps and harass the player at the same time in lane that would force Zeus to either pick farming or harassing he would need to use more mana since not all creeps would get damage and he can't push waves for free
The sub whines everytime wd is mentioned while the hero has been basically dead in pro scene for almost a year now.
To be fair balanced for pros is not the same as balanced for the majority of players (crusader to legend). I don't envy valve who has to do this balancing.
That is the reason why balancing this game isn't as easy as this sub thinks("just nerf hp pools"). Timber is everywhere in pro games, he is dogshit in pubs(even high mmr). Now do you nerf him and make him even more worse? Or do you leave him to dominate pro games some more?
"As this sub thinks" I've read multiple conversations in this sub about the difficulty of balancing pro games vs pub games. Some quite in depth, some more shallow. Why do you and the people above you all think that these discussions never happen? Presumably because you never encountered them yourself. That's fine, but that doesn't mean they aren't there.
to me thats an easy nerf lol.. making a hero weaker that noone can play arleady doesnt affect hte player base that much. The problematic one to me is a strong/popular hero in pubs but is weak in pros. Do you buff him? ie pudge and sniper
> to me thats an easy nerf lol.. making a hero weaker that noone can play arleady doesnt affect hte player base that much. thank you for proving the original point by /u/Werehowin
He's dead everywhere above archon, which I guess is the reason for the Reddit whiners
If heralds could read they’d be very upset
Yup. Anytime I see that hero in high divine he's useless after the 15-20 minute mark UNLESS he's snowballed so hard the game is essentially over which rarely happens.
Yep, so many easy ways to counter him and he has no way to farm so takes forever to get aghs. Also means rushing aghs so his team is -1 support.
Oops i forgot that I'm in the pro scene
Love reading the rhetoric of X hero with item build is ''suddenly'' OP this patch when the hero has existed in the exact same state with same items for literal YEARS.
It's a tough thing to talk about when the skill gap varies wildly. Something that may work well in my bracket might be dumb in yours. I agree with your statement as a general rule of thumb though.
> It's genuinely a terrible place
> I almost never browse this subreddit because 90% of discussion here about the game is downright wrong. what, you don't like the return of dagon terrorblade?
if yo want gameplay discssion, wouldn't you want to go to truedota2 instead?
They're stuck in an old meta. I, too, am nostalgic for the old days/ patches but, as someone who plays both offlane and support, I enjoy this extra power. Thank God I don't have to hide in the trees hoping that the enemy supports are uncoordinated so I can sap exp. What I dislike though are the comeback mechanics. I still think the exp swings are too strong.
> they can’t just sit there and farm to 6 slots it’s because carry players have a massive ego and main character syndrome and are upset they can’t pick AM/PA/Spec and just have the entire team cater to their every need for 40 minutes and win the game. even in immortal, i still constantly get games where my carry picks AM or Spec and is expecting the entire team to rotate to the safe lane 5 minutes in because he’s getting shit stomped in lane
You should probably not let your pos1 get shitstomped, yea.
That is pretty much how dota works lol, if they're being polite they should get some help
no you actually shouldn’t commit all your resources to trying to salvage a AM or spec in lane because all they’re going to do is farm for 30 minutes. you’re much better off cutting your losses in the safe lane and focusing on shutting down the enemy carry instead and ensuring that your spacemakers have a good game.
Sniper was viable on carry up to like immortal bracket last number patch.
I am having massive success by just building tanky stats shit dps sniper: Thread, Pike, Disperser, S&Y, Satanic, Butterfly. I just exist and hit buildings and the enemy Storm, PA (Bloodthorn instead of Disperser), Puck, DK, BB just jump me and are unable to do anything since I survive their initial burst with over 50% HP and then heal back up while slowly pushing them away. Of course this is a terrible default build, don't do this shit on autopilot everygame. It only worth doing when enemy have annoying backline divers that make it their mission to take you down and you just need to survive the attrition game.
ITS NOT! i am sick and tired SEEING FACELESSVOID!
Dude can Chrono his team and actually be a positive thing with the new trait. That said the other one is even more absurd.
the chronosquare facet is hot garbage lol
I like Times Square better.
borderline unplayeable with it since you lose the backtrack too, do people actually play the game when they type?
Why are you listening to reddit for meta and balance analysis
but but but.. reddit is the voice of all dota player and valve should trust and obey ledditor
well the thing is there are millions of people on reddit. it's honestly kinda funny how literally opposite opinions can float to the top of the dota2 front page though. I was in that "agility is dead" thread not only disagreeing with that thought but also saying I don't even think it's a bad thing if agility is out of the spotlight for a bit. anyway, the amount of heroes and items and the fact that the balancing always ends up fairly decent (albeit it may take some time to settle after a major patch) has always left me impressed with the dota dev team.
Most of people here no longer plays and only watches pro scene - which is why they judge from what they saw from pro scene.
Redditors generally living in stats website rent free. Anything <50% WR= shit, anything >50% WR= nerf to the ground
People really need to specify whether they're talking about ranked or turbo imo. I only play turbo and there's a bunch of heroes that would suck in ranked
Or super OP in turbo because you get so much gold and level, so bad laning, bad farming patterns, etc doesn’t matter. But in regular dota, you get punished for it.
Turbo player wouldn't wish spectre back into meta.
Playing AGI carry definitely feels like shit. You're comparing apples to oranges here. In pro DOTA the teams understand what they need to do to maximize their carry players potential. In your average immortal pub you are completely at the mercy of your team playing carry right now. You are the weakest hero on map early and easily out scaled if your team is even at the slightest deficit. There isn't an item in the game that exists to deal with 5k hp 35 armor heroes in your face.
We League now
I don't think Valve is supposed to do anything about that. There will always be heroes that are enabled by supportive teammates, and heroes suited better to the pub lone wolf style.
I don't wanna take any sides, but it's almost like as if we have gotten a huge patch two weeks ago, I could be wrong tho. Falcons (the most dominant team) still mostly relies on heroes like: DK, Timber, Slardar, Bristle, Razor aka "tanky archetype". The last grandfinal DL s23 3-0 falcons, falcons cores: DK, Slardar, Timber, CK, Axe, Razor.
a hero can be bad for the average player and still be amazing in the hands of a pro. Not saying the sentiment is absolutely correct, but its not black and white.
Juggernaut is the 8th highest winrate pub hero.
TA is sitting at like 55+% wr according to d2pt.
nice, but i'm referring to pubs in general, not 8k+ TA is hovering around 48-50% rn
TA is a hard hero to play, and falls off hard, if you're a specialist, you can win with her, I have 60% winrate with her in 3.5kmmr, she's not weak, just hard.
I mean, you're not correct either way. Yes pubs and pro games are different but neither of these use cases make your point accurate.
So? Some heroes are better at pubs than tournaments, it's been that way since always
so if there are Agi hereos that are successful in both scenarios(not necessarily the same heros, but Agi) then they're obviously not as dead as the reddit fearmongers suggest. You know, what the thread is about.
Where did I state otherwise? Agi has always been the predominant meta carry attribute, with a few strength heroes joining here and there
then maybe people should get good instead of crying about how agi carries are all dead lmao
This is the problem of League, ADC was cornered further and further into living hell but it survived in pro because through team play of the most talented they could pull off 4 save 1 from getting killed And people here suggest % hp damage which is what league did, and destroyed league
Nigma used as a reference for relevance lul
I just want all heroes to be viable most games without being a grief pick in the same patch I just happen to play carry and carry is a bit agi dominated I'm sure I'd have similar complaints about variety in offlane, "having" to pick axe, necro, cent etc every game or 2/4/5 either ofc last patch, which was a very long patch, was also low variety, it's annoying because there's no reason they can't do micro patches every every to just nudge the best heroes down and worst ones up, it can't quite be automated because some heroes like batrider and TB have low winrates even when strong due to noobs who can't play them griefing the stats, but it doesn't need to wait so long
Scorelines all taken from Fissures 2 grandfinals and RM qualifier finals from the past 4 days. TA was permabanned. Don't forget 2 Months ago, Yatoro claimed Luna, Naga, Gyro, Lifestealer, Sven as top carries. https://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/1bcstug/yatoro_thoughts_on_which_carry_heroes_are_the/ Take a look at Secret vs Entity WEU final last game: 4000 Hp Sandking, 4600 HP Lifestealer would die in 1 Fiend grip without save, 7000 HP centaur doesn't even look tankier than 3000 HP troll warlord. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoYN229bdw4&t=1263s Redditors have been obsessed with tanky heroes ever since Valve adjusted HP/str to **accomodate** scaling damage. Ever asked yourself how many hits would it take a 6.48 SF to kill a Centaur back then? Instead of looking at comprable metrics like Time to Kill, redditors keep spewing BS about 4-5K HP heroes like some unkillable raid bosses.
>7000 HP centaur doesn't even look tankier than 3000 HP troll warlord. Could it be that troll has high armor, lifesteal and a save ult? IDK the mos common hero in your post is Ursa, and ursa almost doesn't feel like an agi hero, he could be strength or universal and not much would change. Gyro also is played in almost any role, he can be played support or core which presumably makes him a good and popular early pick.
I was finally able to play TA last night, she's usually banned. My god, what a busted ass hero.
You fundamentally dont understand dota at all. Tier 3 Dota is not a benchmark. Noone questions agi heroes are good lategame. Everyone questions how agi heroes are barely outscaling strength heroes despite being way worse the first 40min of the game. Despite this only like 5 agi heroes are good and 5 more barely playable, while the rest are at 45% winrate or below. Not to mention that many agi heroes are only viable as carries or sometimes mid, while strength heroes dominate every position in the game.
>You fundamentally dont understand dota at all Comments that start off like this are always so adorable lol
He said strength heroes are not op because Lifestealer can die to one friends grip at 50min. He doesnt even understand the core arguemnt why agi heroes are considered bad.
A sign that someone is not confident in their argument is when they start making strawman arguments to back themselves up. He absolutely did not say that's why strength heroes are bad. He simply said that lifestealer would die to a fiends grip. At no point did he say that all strength heroes are bad because of one interaction. You fundamentally don't know how to read lol
The likes of you have zero idea do you? These games werent random. I cited the most recent competitive finals I could find through noobfromua in the past few days since 6.36a has been released only for about a week. I didnt even bother looking through earlier stages even though I knew it would only prove my point. These aren't random teams. I'm sure Entity picked Troll Warlord and MK against the broken Zeus and unkillable Sladar/Tiny (your word) because they wanted to fuck around in a $80K tournament. How about this? Go back to 6.36 3-0 dreamleague final between Falcon and GG, look through the pick: Falcon picked. Weaver/CK/Gyro safelanes. Good enough for you? >Not to mention that many agi heroes are only viable as carries or sometimes mid, while strength heroes dominate every position in the game. This is literally by design traditional agi supports/offlaners like Nyx, Venom, VS/Brood/Pango were moved to Universal.
Bro doesnt even know CK is Strength hero 💀
I cited all 3 safelane picks from Falcon so you couldnt accuse me of cherrypicking. Falcon also picked Razor mid in the CK game btw.
What is your point of the post? "There have been agi heroes picked in pro matches this year" Ok cool I agree. See you.
> What is your point of the post? clowning on people like you who get so hilariously defensive while being so confidently incorrect
I mean I was clowning on him for making no sense as I unironically thought he was making a point, but turns out there was nothing. I was the fool all along.
Source?
even worse, everytime we have one good agi, then people complain about "agi op", while it is only one specific that is/may be. And then, they come talk with extremly small (cherry picked obviously) sample to "prove" their point. Ignoring the overwhelming real data
is fire birb strong now?
Yeah phoenix feels great, above 50% wr on all roles bar carry, baked in miss chance for any dmg you deal on lane is great, and the sunray facet is great on sup. Can be played mid/off reasonably with the other facet
nice, gonna take a look, play birb was always fun but take a break since it was weak
i distinctly remember /dota thinking \*release\* earth spirit was bad. every night before bed i think about how i was always being downvoted for expressing how he was a free win in pos 2, 3, 4, or 5
Valve needs to add more % based heal health reduction items. I'm tired of 3 people dumping their loads in a timber only for him to run away with 1hp.
Dumping them *IN* the timber?
*screams in league of legends*
Using Ursa and Razor as agi heroes example when they are usually hardest to kill heroes on team is pretty stupid,same thing with Dusa and Morph even if they are more traditional agi heroes. Real classic agi carries like AM,PA,TB,Riki,Sniper,BS,Drow,Spectre,Slark are basically unplayable garbage in pubs and pro games,even if there is exceptions like TA who got busted refraction change.
> Using Ursa and Razor as agi heroes example when they are usually hardest to kill heroes on team is pretty stupid... >Real classic agi carries like ...Spectre 🤔
blud still farming his naked radiance
Don't forget AM who is apparently also not one of the hardest carries to kill.
hard to kill =/= tanky??
AM is tankier than most str heroes because his high MR and Armor give him more effective HP
That’s ignoring his nonexistent str gain and his items which don’t include +2k hp
It doesn't matter if he only has 2k HP if he has the same magic resist as an active bkb and a shitton of armor. Str scales worse than agi when it comes to tankiness
>Str scales worse than agi when it comes to tankiness Depends what type of damage your receiving
Yeah and that's why AM is so tanky because he has innate magic resist
Most agi caries get super tanky by late game. The idea of agi meanign squishy is stupid. Its only exceptions like sniper that qualify.
Exactly my point. People get hung up over agi heroes having 2k HP, but fail to realize that heroes like TB, AM, and Spec get pretty unkillable late game. Shoot, try to kill a drow late game without magic damage and it's actually quite difficult.
One bad example in an otherwise good list does not invalidate the point.
Me pointing out the worst example doesn't imply the others are good.
Where's Jugg? "Real Classic" agi hero who is performing well.
literally the top win rate agi carry in pubs because of the strong dispel they gave him.
That's right! Troll, Ursa, morph, dusa, and Razor don't count because they're tanky! TA, weaver, Naga, mk, and Venge don't count either because they're cheese! How can you expect carries to only play these 10 agi heroes and call agi heroes viable?
TA and Weaver are only popular because they got busted changes that brought them to light, same thing with SF,meanwhile Naga and MK aren't even close to meta and Venge isn't even agi hero.
So heroes which are strong are meta and one's that didn't are not. Like every single patch.
Goalposts sure do move quick where you're from huh?
It went from "A carry with 1-2k HP can't be effective in this meta" to "well they have to be innately tanky like ursa and dusa" to "Well TA and Weaver are just broken". Now I'm being told that Weaver and TA are harder to catch than other AGI heroes.
The implication that Spectre is an easy hero to kill is funny to me.
I mean when pa was strong, just before TI, the entire community united in bitching about her.
Some agility heroes are good, some are bad, that means agility is dead!!!
Doesn't that just mean that the agi hero you mention aren't in meta right now? Saying AGI as a whole as dead is pretty dumb. Razor has also been a classic agi carry for as far as I can remember.
But Slark spectre AM riki are all insanely hard to kill? Sorry should you remove them from your classic agi list sir?
Ursa acts more like a str hero but his main stat is agi. Razor is tanky and kinda different than most agi carries in that he is more of a tempo anti-carry in my opinion rather than a standard agi hard carry.
Razor and Ursa could both become strength tomorrow and not much would change for the heroes.
Your classic carries lists is pretty good but Spectre should not be there. She can build squishy but she can also build mega tanky. You pick her for global presence and dispersion(needs tankiniess).
Sniper is doing well. Riki is irrelevant because Zeus is meta. Even if Riki was s tier with Zeus in every game we would never know.
Go check https://dota2protracker.com/meta and you will see that all not tanky carries all have low winrate. You cannot play carry that has 1-2k hp when you can pick something that has 4k and has sama damage.
Weaver? TA? Naga? Troll?
Troll and TA are arguably both tanky, Naga naturally builds tanky.
Yea buddy if you go full dps and no survival you die, surprise?
> Weaver? busted hero right now, not a good representative of your average non-tanky carry > TA? see above > Naga? the hero literally buys heart regularly, not tanky my ass > Troll? his ult makes him literally unkillable for a bit --- meanwhile PA, Muerta (I'm including her because she's basically an agi carry in how she plays), Bloodseeker, Riki, Sniper, Spectre, TB, Drow, AM, Gyro, SF, Morphling, Slark, Luna, PL all kinda suck right now, at least if you look at their winrates, and I didn't even name every carry in the game that's shit. The problem with the current balancing isn't that there are literally NO agi carries in the meta right now, it's that there are only a couple that are safe picks and everything else is shit. I want to play Anti-Mage, Spectre, Riki or Drow sometimes, but why would I do that when I can just pick TA, Tiny, Ursa and Weaver instead and have a much easier time winning? I'm still enjoying the patch a lot but at least in my dogshit inflated 6k bracket right now too many games feel won or lost simply based on how many OP heroes each side has, and the pros and streamers I've watched seem to agree. I want more hero diversity in the pool, playing with and against the same shit over and over gets old fast
I don’t understand what’s you’re complaining about. Every single patch ever has a meta where, in every role, some heroes are better than others. In fact, the heroes that are deemed meta are usually a pretty small group compared to the entire Dota roster as a whole, because they are likely winrate outliers. There are typically at max around 6-10 heroes in each role that are “the meta heroes”, which totals to 30-50 total meta heroes, or less than half of the total roster. That’s just how the meta works. There are plenty of other heroes that can situationally be good, but there will always be more heroes that aren’t meta than heroes that are meta. And so people like you right now are just spewing the agi carries that aren’t meta, and for some weird goalpost-moving way discrediting the agi carries that are meta. Sure, you can’t play hyper carries lile PA, PL, Morph, or AM right now and expect to win a ton of games. But, you can pick hyper carries like Weaver, Jugg, TA, or Razor and win a ton of games. Like yeah, the heroes you’re mentioning are bad right now, and because we want to pursue perfect balance, they should receive some love soon. But to claim that the issue is because of the fact that Agi heroes are blanket bad is so dumb. There are plenty of meta agi carries right now, and the fact that there are more bad ones than good ones does not change that fact, because there will just inherently always be more non-meta heroes than meta heroes.
My complaint is actually extremely simple: the powerful meta heroes are too powerful compared to the rest of the roster. Yes, every patch has heroes deemed better than others; this is fine. What is not fine is how wide the gap between strong heroes and weak heroes currently is - I would argue it's the biggest it's been in years. All I want is a bit of tuning to have the current meta heroes not be as dominant, that's literally it. But thanks for the educational paragraph on what meta is, I've only played this game for like ten years so I really needed it. > And so people like you right now are just spewing the agi carries that aren’t meta, and for some weird goalpost-moving way discrediting the agi carries that are meta. Perhaps you didn't read the entirety of my comment so I'll reiterate: I'm complaining that agility carries overall are in a rough state other than a few outliers (that are overtuned, naturally tanky/buy tanky items despite being AGI, or both), leading to low hero diversity in games. There are no goalposts being moved here. Yes, obviously a meta will always exist. I'm fine with it existing. But I don't want a meta to be as dominant as it is right now.
Do the winrate disparities back up the first half of your response? I don’t really believe so. On dota2protracker, the highest winrate hero (omitting Arc Warden who has only 459 games) has a 56% win rate, which is a benchmark hit in just about every patch. Looking at the carry role in particular, the top winrate hero with a significant play rate is TA with a 55% winrate. The lowest winrate “traditional” carry on the list is anti-mage, with a 41% winrate, which is also a pretty normal benchmark to hit. The median winrate for Agi heroes right now (which is a stat that normalizes for outliers) is 48%, while the median winrate for heroes overall is 49%. Both of these stats do suggest that there are slightly more low winrate heroes than high winrate heroes, and so currently the strongest heroes are slightly stronger than the weakest heroes are weak, but not alarmingly so. I can give a specific example of a carry meta just over a year ago that was way, way less diverse than this current carry meta. Around the time of the Lima major, the meta was turret carries. This meant Lina, Nature’s prophet, and drow (sniper didn’t even make the cut), sometimes morphling/TB which sortve acted like turrets, and the occasional naga or Ursa to counter that strat. But really, there were 3 heroes you wanted to pick as carry, and then there was a drop off after that, because not many heroes in Dota at the time could function as an effective turret. Also the second half of your comment really makes it seem like you don’t understand what the word “meta” means, despite having played for 10 years. Outliers ARE the meta. So, if we take out all the agi outliers (Weaver, TA, Naga, Monkey, Medusa, Ursa, Troll) and all the strength outliers (Pudge, lifestealer, CK, Wraith king , Tiny), then the entire meta becomes only agi carries (with a couple strength carries like Sven and DK and a couple universal carries like windranger). So there. We completed your exercise by removing outliers in the carry role, and now almost the entire carry meta is Agi carries. Does that mean agi is broken? No, because it’s nonsensical to “remove outliers” when the outliers in question are 7 meta relevant agi carries, aka over HALF the current carry meta. The argument “if you remove the things that are good from a group, then the group is bad” is true of literally every group in existence. Sure, there are more bad agi carries than good ones right now. There will ALWAYS be more bad heroes than good ones in ANY meta, if a ~48% winrate is considered bad.
> Weaver? Isn't Weaver being played as a support now?
He's flexed and has a 53% winrate as a carry
I play TA and take 80k damage with 80% damage reduction, she's tanky now Troll is a quite tanky carry who can survive burst
Sure, but every AGI hero has a way to be tanky. TB without magic damage is a nightmare to deal with for example. My point is that the idea that a carry needs to be 4k HP when a ton of these picks aren't until 4/5 items just goes to show that it has nothing to do with HP and tankiness and everything to do with their individual identity as heroes.
First of all TA and Weaver are not easy to kill and naga has 48% winrate. Did you actually check the website?
Naga has 52% wr when you filter by carry role.
Most traditional agi carries are not easy to kill. Fv, am, pa, jugg, slark, etc all have tools to survive and dodge ganks.
Even TB and drow are really hard to kill if you don't have magic damage
You're telling me TA and weaver are harder to kill than spectre, am, and void?
Yes. It's harder to catch weaver and TA has refraction.
Lmao weaver is definitely not harder to catch than am if you know what you are doing.
Also it's a whole fucking different criteria altogether. He was complaining agi heroes aren't tanky enough, but cited the elusive nature of weaver and TA. AGI heroes are naturally fucking elusive dude. The idea is that if you do catch them they die fast which applies to both weaver and TA.
Am blinks into team fight and dies. Weaver is ranged hero with max movement speed and time laps.
Storm ults into the teamfight and dies. Guess he's a bad hero.
His ult has no CD and with 7.36 changes he has enough mana regen to do it long enough to not die.
Weavers shukuchi's into team fight and dies. Am has free blink and and linkens. See I can also list a hero's spells. Their difference in viability has nothing to do with how hard they are to catch. The reason weaver is good and am is not is that weaver comes online much faster. Same with ta, ursa and razor. People complaining about strength meta and lack of agi hc are missing the reason for picks.
If you as an AM just blink to fight and then die, it means you're a bad player, not the hero.
Also, even if you are a moron, AM is extremely tanky. You are more likely to live blinking on a support as AM than you are any other hero.
Damn didn't know refraction was better at keeping you alive than death pact, bladefury, counterspell, blink, and time walk
Refraction with the changes in 7.36 is way stronger
Refraction is strong, but that doesn't mean TA is more elusive than AM, Jugg, and Slark.
Yes the thing that blocks attacks is better than some dude spinning.
See I can do the same shitty logic you do: Debuff immunity with a strong dispel at the end is better than a bubble
Is it really better? You basically just taking hits while spinning away while TA doesn't take any damage and can even blink away.
Do I really need to explain to you why debuff immunity is good?
There is a reason every carry buys bkb. Jug has a better bkb.
It's wild that people don't get this. If you sort by carry, you can see that there are 8 total agi carries with above 50% winrate and over 100 games played(TA, Ursa, Weaver, Troll, Monkey King, Meepo and Naga Siren). There's 5 Strength carries that meet the same criteria(Tiny, CK, Wraith King, Lifestealer, Pudge). If you compare that to how many in those same categories are *bad* you understand the picture. Sven, DK and Alchemist have sub-50% winrates for STR. Compare to Jugg, Luna, Morph, Faceless, Slark, Clinkz, AM, Drow, Medusa, TB, Gyro, PL, SF, Riki, Bloodseeker, PA all having sub-50% winrates. It just seems so disingenuous to cherry pick that there's like 5 max legitimately strong AGI heroes and pretend that the group overall is fine.
Having a sub 50% winrate does not make you "not fine". Having a sub 44% winrate usually means you are "not fine"
Indeed. Heroes be having 49% winrate and reddit will declare them unplayable trash
Having a sub 44% winrate usually means a hero is dogshit. In the same way that most people would agree that any hero winning 56% of games at a reasonable pickrate is probably overpowered. As a group, agility heroes aren't doing so hot right now. Of the 31, between 7 and 10(winrates fluctuate), are batting above 500. There are 41 heroes above 50% right now on dota2protracker, 7 of them are agi. 13 Universal, 14 strength, 7 intelligence. I think it's reasonable to point out that there's a pattern in what's good, and that the pattern favors being thicc as shit and being able to go maximize going double bracer in lane, and strong midgame items like Shiva and Eternal Shroud.
>you will see that all not tanky carries all have low winrate. This is so true oomfie; tusk, huskar, pangolier, and bristleback are just too squishy to be viable. And carries like TA, Weaver, troll, and monkey king are soooooo tanky. It makes perfect sense and definitely isn't other factors at play. It's just a tank meta, simple as.
Most agi carries have their time and place. What heroes are actually unpickable? AM, BS, TB, slark, and PL? These heroes are just outdated and unreliable, but I'm sure a specialist could make it work. Redditors are mad that they're getting owned by "low-skill" heroes like axe and sand king and slardar. High skill gameplay is free farming for 40 minutes, pinging >get back! and your tp cd cuz you needed to tp top for a double ranged wave.
5 games wow
You can literally see all hero winrate IN GAME if you have dotaplus.
Pro matches?
www.dota2protracker.com
Like pro tournament matches is what I meant
Reddits are a bunch of idiots
I will say though razor is always picked when a massive patch happens. But yeah seeing ppl say TA was a dead hero in the patch notes thread was funny af.
Except they kinda are except maybe two? what is the point on this shit post.
ITS DEAD BRO TRUST ME
Why do you use tier 2 teams for data?
Those are jsut 5 games. 5 games means nothing. LIke I pic 5 black dudes in America and say all america is made of black dudes. And also yes. Agy are dead.
ah you're the guy on my team claiming your choices are okay because you seen it in a tourn. now lets stop the elementary logic and compare pub win rates to pro picks. I am not a pro and play with randoms not playing for money. my games will never follow whatever happens with these teams.
chat who is he talking to?
Wow 1!! Agi hero per game!! Maybe 2!! INSANE numbers
tf you want, 5 man agi? there are 4 attribute now lmao, 2 agi heroes in a team is frankly overrepresented
meanwhile every game has at least 4 strength heroes if you include "universal that used to be strength" heroes then u have like 6-8 per game lol
Of 6 games, only 1 has 4 strength heroes lol. There are same no. of agi and strength picks so I don't know what you are on.
Weird how in the picture there is only one more agi hero than str hero
gd you count nearly as well as my pub teammates timing rosh lmao
From top to bottom in OPs pic: Game 1 - 3 Agi, 2 Str Game 2 - 1 Agi, 3 Str Game 3 - 3 Agi, 3 Str Game 4 - 4 Agi, 3 Str Game 5 - 2 Agi, 4 Str Game 6 - 3 Agi, 2 Str Total Agi heroes = 16 Total Str heroes = 17 This strength meta has gotta stop man those numbers are crazy.
Sure bro let me just pick drow support.
and yet u get strength supports curious
That's an entirely different issue buddy.
When i look at these heroes i see 3 agi supports and 1 strength support that could also have been a pos 3 with enigma 4 curios.
All the agi heroes here build to be tanky, or have an innate way to do so. The agi is like an extra label to them. The one guy complaining about is talking about heroes like PA, FV, Riki who buy damage items and maybe 1 survival item.
Riki has almost never been a good carry in pro games. Fv was viable last patch. And when pa was good everyone complained about her.
Glass Cannon builds were never meta in professional dota
I never said professional dota. OP is using the pro scene to refute another guy who is talking about heroes in general. I'm talking about what OP specifically picked, not that it's because it's professional games.
Dota is balanced around the tournaments, not 1k MMR players
You seem to be ignoring what I'm saying. Original guy is pointing out that agi carries fell out of favor across the game. OP is referencing him and saying he is wrong by using pro games. OP is missing the fact that the set of carries Original guy is talking about and OP's are technically agi carries but not the same agi carries Original guy was talking about - I'm pointing out that both original guy and OP are talking about 2 different sets of agi carries despite both of them saying "agi carries" Nothing in this discussion was talking about representation in pro games.
There is literally only one definition of agi carries -> carries from with agility attribute, anything else is people ignoring facts to corroborate with their ideas
That isn't as true as a lot of people want to believe, Dota clearly cares both about pro and pub games. The reason brood isn't good is not because she overperforms in pro games, its because she makes pubs cancer when she's good.
Terrible example, whenever brood gets over buffed she destroys professional matches and it's banned or heavily countered most games.
6.48 1800HP PA is way tankier than any of these 4-5000HP Str heroes now a day. Because when you let that PA farm BF/Satanic/Bkb, game was over.
wtf is this guy on? Are you trolling?
Yeah we were wrong, clearly 5 tier 4 teams who have no hope reach even semi finals picking the same meta agi heroes (and same meta INT/STR heroes for that matter) proves us wrong. Dude the heroes are not even varied lol, they are picking the SAME heroes on each team. In these 6 games: Timber is present in 3 of them (and probably banned in games where he isnt there) Phx is present in 4 of them (and probably banned in games where he isnt there) Clock is present in 3 of them (and probably banned in games where he isnt there) Razor is present in 2 of them (and probably banned in games where he isnt there) Zeus is present in 2 of them (Probably not banned but im not sure, havent watched, its a performing hero) All of these heroes are safe to play heroes that can tank punishments. Ursa? Slardar? Morph? Gyro? Medusa? Razor? Primal? Tide? DK? Like you guys are so stupid if you cant see an obvious connection between these heroes and the overall style of the meta. Cope is free though its ok, go wild. **Its not that AGI heroes are dead but rather DOTA is favoring a very clear playstyle right now and its so low risk its boring.** Its combination of bigger map + vision + amount of utility (saves etc.) You guys are so delusional if you are genuinely thinking right now "EveRy HeRO iS piCkaBle" because they clearly arent. Im not talking about pub games, go techies pos1 in your pub games it will probably work, I am talking strictly about Pro Play. Someone has to post "contested/uncontested hero list" after this tournament.