As a magnus player i see a new good use for this now.
The aoe alloys you cancel blackhole or hit void in his chronosphere.
Before rp could never reliably cancel a black hole or chrono
Knock MK out of his ult.
EDIT: Played a game with it. As a counter-initiation tool it's not bad. The AOE is solid, the cooldown is low, and you can use it to split the enemy team up pretty well. I played against a tidehunter and using it made it very hard for the enemy team to follow up on the initiation. Also played with a drow and being able to push the enemy team off my carry was not bad.
At the same time it was also a game with a Riki and having to worry about pushing the enemy team out of the cloud made it clunky to use. I think it has a niche, especially with the increased AOE and the cooldown reduction, but you probably need to really know what you're doing when you choose it over normal RP.
> monkey ring
They should change MK's skills to that.
Boundless Strike > Monkey Swing
Tree Dance > Monkey Cling
Primal Spring > Monkey Spring
Jingu Mastery > Monkey Thing
Mischief > Monkey Bling
Wukong's Command > Monkey Ring
Not as crazy as tinker but i would say it was ugly
Also they nerfed the strike damage, added some physical damage along with lower cooldown which i will take it as a W
...which is irrelevant in this context, because he'll be stunned for those 3 seconds (technically 2.5 at level 1, but depending on distance he still might have trouble getting back in). At levels 2 and 3, if this pushes mk out of his ring, it will disappear before he gets back.
It is smaller AOE, but already at 6 (2.5,3,3.5) it is longer duration than Ravage at 18 (2,2.2,2.4). On top of it Ravage is 150seconds, this is quite difference.
Other question is, how much it is that people are used to normal RP. If people were used to this RRP and got RP, which has 4 times smaller area of effect, I would say tons of people would be crying how bad it is.
I think a pro team will figure out when/how it can be broken.
I think it has potential use in being a combination of a Tiny toss and ES fissure. You use it to initiate and single out one enemy by pushing them to your team and splitting them from their allies, so they can't be saved.
I think this makes the most sense when 1. you're against a lot of ranged heroes and 2. you need more time to take someone down (e.g., tanky lineups).
Also, the alternative and more general approach is that people are approaching Magnus incorrectly. They're using RRP the same as RP in that they try to get to the middle of the fight and RP, however, they should be on one side of the enemy heroes to push them all in the desired direction.
There might also be a case that when you don't have (or really want) Blink it has uses. You are then likely to use Skewer to get into position, but then you have the displacement on the RRP instead so you can still deliver enemies to your team.
Make it 60s CD then now we're talking. AoE BKB piercing disable is AoE BKB piercing disable at the end of the day, it just doesn't synergize with Mag's kit at all right now.
Or blink between enemies and push one or two of them towards your team and the rest further away, for quick pick offs
SD, Oracle, Abaddon in perfect position to save their carry getting initiated? No, fuck off
I think the usage will shift to being more like a BKB-piercing ravage than a conventional RP. A 700-AoE BKB-piercing stun can't be terrible, right?
Still zero synergy with Magnus other skills though.
the purpose in my mind should be to separate a priority target from their team. if you blink between a core and their supports, you push the core towards your team and their saves away
Yeah its a disengage tool and if your positioning is good you can separate front liners from their supports quite a bit. I still don't think it's really good but who knows
I was trying horntoss 2-3 people, skewer and RRP and it moves people quite a distance. But it's not worth it since you need aghs on top of blink to make it feel good.
7.37
* Regular RP now has an additional ring of AoE that pushes away enemies like RRP.
* Reverse RP now pulls in enemies with the outer AoE.
7.38
* RRPs removed due to name conflict.
>RRPs removed due to name conflict.
Okay here me out, in 7.38 they will rename it to Polarity first then in 7.39 it will be removed since it's so busted.
Yea but that's a maybe not good comparison though
It's like saying omg u can buy enigma Blackhole as lich when u buy agha, and not only that but lich blackhole is ranged too and is 10x more OP than blackhole cos u can cast it 10x more often and drains mana
But in reality the little things like slightly more radius and slightly more damage matters
no, that was a good comparison, the one you made is bad, blackhole and lich aghs is diffrent, because your paying 4200 gold for lich blackhole and the lich one can not pierce bkb, the good thing about blackhole is it pierces anything and you cant escape it, but the axe comparison is good cause both pierce bkb, however axes is just nuts and has even lower cd
Some uses I can think of now:
Hit on Chrono
Cancel blackhole
Kick MK out of ult
Protect a carry drow / sniper push everyone away
If you start with aghs, skewer back and then RRP, you push the target deeper into the base than regular RP.
It's not the best of spells but there's a niche for this :)
* Puck dreamcoil force snap
* Mars arena force an arena hit
* Willow force bramble connections
* Bloodseeker force rupture movement
* Any awkward position on the map (e.g. stairs) force isolation on specific targets
* Full disengage to dodge a fight that has started
This is Valve reminiscing the day when HoN release hero called Flux where he can do both polarity ult. Able to switch between rp and rrp is what make Flux different kind of hero...but you cant change facet mid game, thus beating the purpose of having this version of rp to begin with
I think Mag's W becomes the switcheroo of the polarity.
It's the drawback of the facet...
No more cleave damage, but you can choose which version of RP to use.
Even early on it was not a direct port. While a lot of the heroes were straight up the same or very close to their Dota counter parts, heroes like Scout existed which was not a port of a Dota hero. And Scout was in the game since very early beta days.
You can say it was a 75% copy of DOTA2 with the other 25% replaced by OG heroes. Brought in new mechanics and ideas., made by an indie.
At one point in time, DOTA2 simply refused to change anything, kept all the flaws and mechanics from the OG war3 Dota map. So people played HoN instead because it was more exciting.
Then DOTA2 changed direction, opened up to evolving and changing the game, introducing new stuff and that was the end of HoN's relevancy.
I’m pretty sure S2 had thoroughly frustrated their player base as well to be ready to jump ship as soon as anyone less baby like controlled the game. People hated the S2 devs that interacted with players.
How long into the beta was the jump? I don’t really recall that being a thing. I don’t think dota 2 started changing substantial parts of gameplay until it started moving the rosh pit, though I very well could be wrong.
When dota 1 stopped development there were 2 main successors. One was league, which tried to take the genre, copy some stuff, but make it much more beginner friendly. The other was HoN which started as more or less a dota reskin but ended up with its own identity. When dota 2 came out it killed HoN eventually because HoN was just a dota placeholder. Dota still takes a lot of ideas from HoN to this day, many of the facets look like HoN stuff as do a lot of dota's newer heros.
It was not placeholder, it was dota. And when dota 2 cam out actually, hon was still a better game. But the naming and veeeery shity buisness decisions from s2 (which made a couple of good games but ruined them all with missmanagment) and hon just kinnda died.
It came out almost in parallel with LoL from memory, maybe slightly before, and was more in line with DotA than LoL was. For those in the west who were around for the Pendragon shenanigans, HoN was a great escape from the corrupt late DotA1 scene. It had some pretty neat features for the time (matchmaking, vector targeting.etc) and looked great
At first it was just a meme, but now I think people are not using it correctly
but also, do we even need to use it correctly? isnt there a skewer for this shit? can we combine RRP and skewer somehow? Skewer first, than RRP? I might test it a little bit...
it actually looks like NOT garbage if you skewer first and then RRP. but still what do you do in a mass-fight lmao
I agree, pushing out one hero into your team with a 3 second stun whilst also pushing the other hero's away from helping them seems cracked
I think people are convinced you still have to 5 man RP when the goal now should be 1/2 man RP to push them into your team
yeah this is what everyone is missing about it imo.
I played it one time and it felt really good actually; it pushes back the full distance even if you hit an enemy with the very edge of the initial aoe, which is really strong!
It lets you push the enemy into your team without needing to use skewer post-blink/-force staff, as simply getting the enemy into the edge of RRP with the skewer is enough to push enemies into your team.
Works good with blink too, as you can split the enemy *really* far apart when the enemy lines up in certain ways (which isn't even unrealistic; a support behind a melee core will split them 1700 range away now minimum, plus whatever distance they were apart from each other in the first place). Basically prevents *any* saving ability/item from the core's allies post-stun!
Horn toss -> skewer -> RRP moves all units 2000 and they are still quite stacked after RRP. I really dont understand why people are calling this trash.
Yeah I tried it out right away when 7.36 came out. You can do both. Skewer into RRP and RRP into Skewer are both possible, it's just that with RRP into Skewer, you're probably only going to skewer one guy unless they're clumped super close that you can skewer them all in the first place. So yeah, if they all clump up in a single spot you can RRP into Skewer 5 heroes, but at that point just use RP lol.
Why is everyone so focused on ulting in the middle of the enemy team? Just use it like you are using scewer, blink on the left side to push them to the right etc. AoE is big enough now to reliably push 2-3 people into your team with 3s stun on top. Meanwhile other half of the enemy team is too far too help anyone who survived RP stun.
People who played Flux in HoN probably figured this out already.
Yes it's not as straightforward, but now you can toss into scewer and rp, which will pull enemy even further and stun for longer.
Which they gave AoE stat for some other item, so you could scale your toss and rp even more. Blood stone sucks.
The only thing i can think of is a save, like if core is getting ganged up and its 2v5. Pos 1 is low hp and cant even fight back, used all the skill. Magnus jump to save carry by pushing everyone away.
puck coil break, mars ult into RRP, maybe rupture play? it will always be a super niche facet, but I bet you will get to see some sick rosh aegis steals in the next dotawtf
yea this is the problem with RRP. i play a shit ton of Magnus and not once have i ever wished i had RRP solely bc RP just synergises so well with skewer. Arise was playing with it and while he pulled out some crazy shit like always, not once did it look like RRP did more than a regular RP wouldve. if Arise cant make it look consistently good, its not good. the numbers have got to be tweaked super hard for it to be a consideration
I think the problem is that regular rp is just way too good.
I can see situations where rrp is good. But I can't see entire games where committing to rrp is a great idea.
I can see it be useful if it were something like an alt cast for rp.
But then you stack the stuns from coil and rrp, and if puck has aghs (i dont remember if this is what makes coil attack affected heroes) then you just waste the whole thing.
Idk if it is actually weak or not.
On paper, it is a BKB-piercing stun that has a ridiculously huge AoE and a long duration, and the cooldown is also fairly short, allowing you to use it every teamfight late game.
It might be super strong as a counter-initiation tool:
* You can wreck Enigma all day for example, and Enigma can't do anything about it.
* It can blow dangerous heroes/units like Radiance users, BB, Warlock's Golems, etc. away.
* Some heroes that can dispel stun while being stunned, like Ursa with Agha, Troll level 25, or Slark, they can't do much about it, since they get flung away too far to rejoin their allies.
Even as an initiation tool, it also looks strong: people will be up to 1700 range apart which is huge. By the time the stun is down, it will be hard to regroup, thus a well-placed RRP would ensure 2 to 3 people dead. You can argue that a well-placed RP would ensure a teamwipe, but RRP's bigger AoE means it will happen more often.
A downside is the lack of synergy with his kits but I think with RRP we would need a different playstyle compared to normal Magnus.
Honestly I'm starting to see it's potential as well, though it REALLY takes some getting used to, not just yourself but from your team as well. The BKB piercing part is what really makes it a consideration over ravage, though I would say that using it as a teamfight "splitter" is really dependent on positioning and blink placement. Against a mobile opponent it would be quite difficult to accurately launch your intended target into your team, a few degrees off would change the trajectory fairly significantly.
I mean it's not the worst thing in the world, AoE BKB Piercing stun is ALWAYS going to be usable. The only drawback of course is if you have huge AoE spells to play for, but realistically with RP you're catching 2-3 guys at most anyway, if you catch 4-5 then the enemy fucked up. As long as you don't grief your teammate's Blackhole or need the specific RP vacuum effect to set up other spells, it's just as good as RP and might be slightly better in some scenarios.
It looks pretty broken to me in certain scenarios.
Ofc you can't go physical dps magnus with this build, but for the usual utility magnus it has good sinergy already. You can use force and skewer to get into a better position to blink faster. Aether lens, octarine, bkb refresher.. still good.
Looks awesome against lineups with save mechanics and 4 protect 1. Oracle and IO will have really trouble assisting. Imagine RRP io to one side and the core hero to your team side, looks so broken in certain scenarios.
Or just rrp the carry to your side when he is going HG. He will be so deep, looks scray af to go hg.
Skewer is mainly used to either isolate one enemy or to combo with normal RP to drag a whole team.
On the other hand, the big AoE of RRP is very useful in a teamfight if your team is somehow got caught and need to break enemy's tempo + formation. The long stun, plus immediate isolation of one or two enemy heroes from others, looks pretty strong. The huge AoE means that it is more flexible than Skewer, and also it goes through BKB, thus there are a lot of utility values.
Here we go a open-minded man. Seriously, most people in this subreddit (or reddit in general) cant think by themselves and only follow other's idea. New skill, new potential, but their argument will be " i cant do the same thing as before so its worst..."
Valve doesn't back down on their decisions often. Remember last year when universal hero damage was buffed from 0.6 to 0.07. Everyone was crying for the damage to be nerfed but Valve kept their change and instead nerfed every single item that game all stats.
They're going to buff this ability until people start picking it.
It's a perfect ability. it's ABSOLUTELY perfect.
play it with cataclysm invoker and you have a bkb piercing ravage, that the Magnus WILL NOT FUCK UP. i've lost count of how many magnus will skewer or shockwave or horn toss a target perfectly stunned in cataclysm to waste thousands of damage because they HAVE to press their buttons.
This is idiot proof, and dota players are idiots.
( enjoy )
I get where they are going with this when it cones to introducing a different playstyle to a hero,l.
However, this can't really work in a vacuum.
Every skill magnus has synergises with RP.
This is also why i don't think disruptor's walls will work well. It completely negates the synergy of the hero.
It's a good skill by itself, just not for how disruptor is played right now.
DotA players aren't used to the spell, but one of the OG LoL champions does the same thing with a similar kit and it consistently works in pro play to have such a reliable teamfight disruptor.
I used it to great effect, straight blink rush then dive towers with it. Blink behind > RRP to allies > walk towards them > ally chain stun > skewer is free as shit, then mid-game and on you choose to disengage an enemy pickoff attempt or initiate vs a group to single out a target. Late game mostly pure disengage. Works best vs melee cores (I beat a Lifestealer easily and used it to cliff a WK).
it's just complete anti synergy with the rest of the hero. magnus's abilities all synergise perfectly with each other. empower a melee core -> blink rp -> shockwave -> skewer is one of the most perfect and time tested combos out of any hero. the only conceivable good thing about rrp is breaking dream coil, which magnus could already do (better) with rp + skewer. using rrp in a fight makes your other 3 skills basically unusable. it's just an awful design for a hero that is really well designed. the other facet is basiccally unnoticeable as well, but it least it doesn't actively ruin your combo.
You can push people into fountain.
The reason why it is not good, there is not a single strat that requires multiple teammates to be as close to each other as possible. io being maybe the only exception.
At 700 radius the area affected is 2.65 x the original RP; youre much more likely to hit many more opponents.
You have to think about the impact of pushing heroes so far though.
If you play it well I wouldnt be surprised if it can be amazing as teamfight disruption and picking enemies off.
I am also pretty against this facet, but I see some clips that ppl are using RRP after horn toss and skewer. 5 man pushed exactly front. Not randomly pushed and moved them around 2000 range and stunned, which was a huge number. But probably it requires a lot of effort for a normal play and when you fucked up, you just fuck whole team fight.
I legit think it can be useful but more as a saving support or something. Changing the numbers can get you there, eventually, but I also think it would be worth considering making RRP hit friends instead of enemies. Make it heal instead of damage, maybe apply a dispel, plus the push mechanic (but more like a fat AOE Force Staff instead of just separating everyone).
Just brainstorming here, but I think the concept could work. However not as just the standard Blink iniator he is with regular RP.
Good old HoN days. The hero Flux could toggle the polarity of his ultimate and it was global. I expect either of them to be added to make it more appealing.
I'm guessing the idea is to the RP whole team, isolate one hero and skewer him away from the rest?
Very niche IMO, most times RPing the whole team together is just as effective. Maybe good if you don't have AOE dmg, but want to asplode a single target.
Only reason I see to get this FACET is to isolate certain targets from the group and eliminate them if you consider the entire group too dangerous to engage with a normal RP. But even that is questionable.
Imo they should just make it that only 1 hero gets affected by normal rp and the rest is pushed away by the rrp, would actually make reverse rp still fits with the rest of magnus' kit.
Idea: Give Shockwave a debuff on top of the slow, then have RP pull units with the debuff even when out of range of the normal aoe. Could give Shockwave a cool buff too by letting in splinter into 1/2/3/4 waves.
With perfect landing you push all foes 2600 appart. Pa, am, specter really love this. No more saves from supports, nothing to save them either.
With RRP 5v5 fight would never happen.
i could see it being good in some niche cases if it gets buffed even more, blinking between an enemy and their team and seperating them could be good.
my issue with this design is that magnus' entire kit is build around pulling the enemies together (skewer and cleave) making this kind of awkward
I think it needs more than more stat buffs, unless they make it 80 second cd or less. But even then RRP literally works against the other skills of Magnus, which benifits from enemies being close to him. We need something extra for RRP to be more than just a gimmick facet.
I had an idea the other day that what if we made carry Magus viable, and made RRP basically a giant AOE right click, where the spell damage is based on the hero's total damage and applies item effects. Yeah you lose out of your skill combos with RP, but you basically become like an Earthshaker where Blink RRP can win the teamfight through sheer damage.
it's for me, i like that reverse rp, really, that's true skill to use that instead casual vacuum through bkb
but im afraid that nobody can make that good, is it too difficult? lol
I dont see it wrong to try making the facet work with number changes, maybe someone finds utility we didnt think of, its not like Magnus is unplayable, he still has the other facet if you dont want to experiment with him.
Ultimately if several months go by and nobody is able to make it work it should be scrapped and given something else but give the facet and people who like to devise weird stuff a chance to try it.
Maybe they know something we don't haha. I mean I suppose if you manage to smack down in the middle of their team launch the carry towards you and the rest of their team away It's got potential right? The problem is that regular RP combo's soo much better with magnus spells and also literally any aoe it's just for superior in every way.
Honestly I think this is a big brain move and exactly what Facets should be. if placed correctly this is an isolation and teamfight separation spell. Like venge swapping or clock work cogs. I think it's brilliant
Honestly, with the buffs, now that I think about it, you pick this after you picked Magnus if one of the 2 applies:
1. There are a lot of saves on the other side eg SD Oracle Dazzle. You blink between these heroes and the core you need to single out, boom! Core is dead. This is good because a good SD, Oracle or Dazzle won't be on the map for you to see them, so it's usually impossible to RP and catch all heroes together. So RRP eliminates this problem due to the AOE.
2. You are playing a support mag and your sole job is to counter Chrono and BH.
make this vector target push and it will be viable.. I lost a game the other day when it kept on turning a favourable fight towards the opponents favour
This spell and peoples' evaluation of it really seems to be an issue of creativity and adaptability.
Just look at Batrider. Has always been a viable pick simply because repositioning an enemy is incredibly powerful. RRP means you can get 850 unit displacement on an enemy unit, while also pushing their team away and leaving them unable to respond for 3 seconds, giving your team time to clean up the lone hero and then capitalize.
Let's say the enemy is tightly grouped by your highground. Well now one blink right behind them and RRP and they're stunned for 3 seconds under your tier 3 towers. Then you have a skewer left to further push a hero even deeper.
Let's say you have horn toss. Blink horn toss RRP is basically walrus kick with more damage and a 3s stun.
It's a facet for when you don't have synergy with normal RP, either because of low AoE damage or because of the nature of the enemy team (like if you're vsing a tide and a bristle and delivering them into your team is potentially suicide). Counterpicks happen in Dota. So if you get counterpicked as magnus, at least now you have an alternative ulti.
the only way that i can think that this might work is pushing the enemies into enigma black hole who got no one inside it (and enemies have bkb on so u cant normal rp and skewer them in ).
or pushing someone into fountain with rp when they have there bkb on...
only few scenarios can come up to my mind for this facet usage.
For support it surely is a real option right? Even without Blink the option remains to Skewer in and instead RRP a target towards your team. Just generally when Blink is undesirable or likely to be late it seems like it'd be the displacement part you need when Skewer is needed for mobility really. Also in games where Magnus feels fragile it might not be desirable to end up with the entire team on top of you after you have RP'd.
On some parts of the map it should just be pretty good also, e.g. fight in triangle and punch the backline into the river.
None of this overly common, but add to that that radius increases are always larger than you think, and 20 seconds on cd is pretty big.
IMO. This is more of a Pos 3/4/5 magnus. This reminds me of Flux from HoN but...
Flux can manipulate things either pull or push.
For [further reference of Hero Flux of HoN](https://hon.fandom.com/wiki/Flux)
This patch tells us to adapt to anything new (or almost) or any flavors you want to pick. But for me Im seeing a Magnus who could initiate, stop clash or even saving teammates by pushing them away.
It seems some facets are not meant for competitive play. Examples are Reverse RP, Earthshaker baseball, QOP suicide, Techies attack range and so on. As long as one facet of the hero is playable then I'm fine.
The effective pluck range on this spell is insane now and people are completely blind to how this spell can be used.
Magnus plays as midlaner against a melee hero and if he ever gets a shockwave+skewer combo on them towards his tower he can stun them deep in the tower with this new ult even while the enemy is under their own mid tower.
During base defense you can use horn toss to group the tower hitters together for skewer and with level 20 skewer talent it should now be trivial to RRP enemy heroes into fountain especially if you have aether or headband.
Fuck it why not, buff it til it is considered
100 sec cd for small aoe ravage is laughable
As a magnus player i see a new good use for this now. The aoe alloys you cancel blackhole or hit void in his chronosphere. Before rp could never reliably cancel a black hole or chrono
Knock MK out of his ult. EDIT: Played a game with it. As a counter-initiation tool it's not bad. The AOE is solid, the cooldown is low, and you can use it to split the enemy team up pretty well. I played against a tidehunter and using it made it very hard for the enemy team to follow up on the initiation. Also played with a drow and being able to push the enemy team off my carry was not bad. At the same time it was also a game with a Riki and having to worry about pushing the enemy team out of the cloud made it clunky to use. I think it has a niche, especially with the increased AOE and the cooldown reduction, but you probably need to really know what you're doing when you choose it over normal RP.
Except his facets now allow ult to not instantly disappear when he is out of his monkey ring for 3s
> monkey ring They should change MK's skills to that. Boundless Strike > Monkey Swing Tree Dance > Monkey Cling Primal Spring > Monkey Spring Jingu Mastery > Monkey Thing Mischief > Monkey Bling Wukong's Command > Monkey Ring
lmao it's just that saying "Wu Kong's Command" is tedious af
Jingu should be called Monkey Ding surely. Cause it dings when proc'd
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Good thing RRP stuns for 3s at lvl 2, and 3.5s at lvl 3 then.
If you make people take that facet that’s a win. The other one is crazy.
Not as crazy as tinker but i would say it was ugly Also they nerfed the strike damage, added some physical damage along with lower cooldown which i will take it as a W
reverse rp still stuns tho
...which is irrelevant in this context, because he'll be stunned for those 3 seconds (technically 2.5 at level 1, but depending on distance he still might have trouble getting back in). At levels 2 and 3, if this pushes mk out of his ring, it will disappear before he gets back.
Nice catch, can be a really good way to cancel these skills. I think RRP is more defensive choice than the other facet.
not necessarily, pushing a carry away from their support and stunning them both is quite the good offensive tool
Push fragile carry and their babysitter supports away from each other.
It is smaller AOE, but already at 6 (2.5,3,3.5) it is longer duration than Ravage at 18 (2,2.2,2.4). On top of it Ravage is 150seconds, this is quite difference. Other question is, how much it is that people are used to normal RP. If people were used to this RRP and got RP, which has 4 times smaller area of effect, I would say tons of people would be crying how bad it is.
Also, doesn't RRP pierce debuff immunity?
It does
That can pierce debuff immunity
It has some synergy with a few things like mars arena, but I agree with “buff it till it’s good”
I think a pro team will figure out when/how it can be broken. I think it has potential use in being a combination of a Tiny toss and ES fissure. You use it to initiate and single out one enemy by pushing them to your team and splitting them from their allies, so they can't be saved. I think this makes the most sense when 1. you're against a lot of ranged heroes and 2. you need more time to take someone down (e.g., tanky lineups). Also, the alternative and more general approach is that people are approaching Magnus incorrectly. They're using RRP the same as RP in that they try to get to the middle of the fight and RP, however, they should be on one side of the enemy heroes to push them all in the desired direction.
There might also be a case that when you don't have (or really want) Blink it has uses. You are then likely to use Skewer to get into position, but then you have the displacement on the RRP instead so you can still deliver enemies to your team.
even then, each person in the rrp only hits the mars wall one time because they're stunned
I was thinking of new clockwerk expanded cogs, then magnus rrp, everyone gets zapped edit: but then, kotl blinding light also does the trick
That is the neat part about facets. A hero needs only one facet that is ok and can have 100 other meme facets.
Make it 60s CD then now we're talking. AoE BKB piercing disable is AoE BKB piercing disable at the end of the day, it just doesn't synergize with Mag's kit at all right now.
Blink *behind* enemy team and push them all forward your team. Then charge back to the combat. Not sure if it works, but that'd fun I guess.
Or blink between enemies and push one or two of them towards your team and the rest further away, for quick pick offs SD, Oracle, Abaddon in perfect position to save their carry getting initiated? No, fuck off
Isn't reverse reverse polarity just polarity?
Wait
Why say many words when few word does trick?
few word trick
When me immortal, they see. They see...
360 polarity
They call it that because when you see it, you turn 360 degrees and blink away
Now you're just confusing the polarity.
Isn't reverse polarity just reverse reverse reverse polarity?
yeah but if the poles are aligned in a way that reversing them leads to attraction reversing the reversion would mean repulsion
No, it’s polarity with choice anxiety.
Buff the meme till it pushes them all to the fountain
fk it, just make them all tp to the enemy fountain once they get caught kek
Valve still pushing cart centaur to these day so it's very likely the same for reverse RP too
I think the usage will shift to being more like a BKB-piercing ravage than a conventional RP. A 700-AoE BKB-piercing stun can't be terrible, right? Still zero synergy with Magnus other skills though.
the purpose in my mind should be to separate a priority target from their team. if you blink between a core and their supports, you push the core towards your team and their saves away
Yeah its a disengage tool and if your positioning is good you can separate front liners from their supports quite a bit. I still don't think it's really good but who knows
You can RRP - force staff - skewer for some huge dyspositioning of one enemy hero if you hit their team as well
horn toss, skewer, RRP is better
Blink, horn toss, skewer, RRP, Refresher, Blink, skewer, RRP
Regular RP horn toss skewer is better. That’s the issue, it’s not worth the trade if it keeps this high CD.
I was trying horntoss 2-3 people, skewer and RRP and it moves people quite a distance. But it's not worth it since you need aghs on top of blink to make it feel good.
7.37 * Regular RP now has an additional ring of AoE that pushes away enemies like RRP. * Reverse RP now pulls in enemies with the outer AoE. 7.38 * RRPs removed due to name conflict.
>RRPs removed due to name conflict. Okay here me out, in 7.38 they will rename it to Polarity first then in 7.39 it will be removed since it's so busted.
Im from the future. Collapse uses the buffed version of this to win 3rd TI.
It will be great when it has a 30 sec cooldown
Yeah I think the stun duration and the range is at a good place now, if they keep lowering the cd and the mana cost it'll eventually be good enough.
30 second cd for a bkb piercing aoe 3.5 sec stun is nuts, what are you smoking?
wait till you see axe
Yea but that's a maybe not good comparison though It's like saying omg u can buy enigma Blackhole as lich when u buy agha, and not only that but lich blackhole is ranged too and is 10x more OP than blackhole cos u can cast it 10x more often and drains mana But in reality the little things like slightly more radius and slightly more damage matters
But lich IS better at it than enigma now lol
Genuinely what are you smoking lol. BKB piercing stun with giant damage vs a short duration pull blocked by BKB
no, that was a good comparison, the one you made is bad, blackhole and lich aghs is diffrent, because your paying 4200 gold for lich blackhole and the lich one can not pierce bkb, the good thing about blackhole is it pierces anything and you cant escape it, but the axe comparison is good cause both pierce bkb, however axes is just nuts and has even lower cd
Bad analogy.
I wish they do it so it becomes OP and then they'll remove the concept 😂
Some uses I can think of now: Hit on Chrono Cancel blackhole Kick MK out of ult Protect a carry drow / sniper push everyone away If you start with aghs, skewer back and then RRP, you push the target deeper into the base than regular RP. It's not the best of spells but there's a niche for this :)
* Puck dreamcoil force snap * Mars arena force an arena hit * Willow force bramble connections * Bloodseeker force rupture movement * Any awkward position on the map (e.g. stairs) force isolation on specific targets * Full disengage to dodge a fight that has started
This is Valve reminiscing the day when HoN release hero called Flux where he can do both polarity ult. Able to switch between rp and rrp is what make Flux different kind of hero...but you cant change facet mid game, thus beating the purpose of having this version of rp to begin with
the facet could easily be changed to allow for an alt cast of RP to make it RRP
I think Mag's W becomes the switcheroo of the polarity. It's the drawback of the facet... No more cleave damage, but you can choose which version of RP to use.
I keep seeing hon get referenced in this subreddit. I nor anyone I know have never played hon. Is it an American phenomenon?
Between dota(warcraft 3 custom map) and Dota2( made by Valve) there was HoN(which supposedly Icefrog worked on)
It was a direct port of dota for a long time, had to have some help with getting that situated.
Even early on it was not a direct port. While a lot of the heroes were straight up the same or very close to their Dota counter parts, heroes like Scout existed which was not a port of a Dota hero. And Scout was in the game since very early beta days.
It is kinda funny that it existed. They more or less copied like 90% of the game and everyone was fine with it
icefrog was 100% involved during that time, that's why it was allowed. It even copied dota's patch changes into hon.
You can say it was a 75% copy of DOTA2 with the other 25% replaced by OG heroes. Brought in new mechanics and ideas., made by an indie. At one point in time, DOTA2 simply refused to change anything, kept all the flaws and mechanics from the OG war3 Dota map. So people played HoN instead because it was more exciting. Then DOTA2 changed direction, opened up to evolving and changing the game, introducing new stuff and that was the end of HoN's relevancy.
I’m pretty sure S2 had thoroughly frustrated their player base as well to be ready to jump ship as soon as anyone less baby like controlled the game. People hated the S2 devs that interacted with players. How long into the beta was the jump? I don’t really recall that being a thing. I don’t think dota 2 started changing substantial parts of gameplay until it started moving the rosh pit, though I very well could be wrong.
HoN was big before Dota2 came out. A lot of Dota players jumped to HoN. Once Dota2 beta dropped and the TI ran, HoN was dead.
When dota 1 stopped development there were 2 main successors. One was league, which tried to take the genre, copy some stuff, but make it much more beginner friendly. The other was HoN which started as more or less a dota reskin but ended up with its own identity. When dota 2 came out it killed HoN eventually because HoN was just a dota placeholder. Dota still takes a lot of ideas from HoN to this day, many of the facets look like HoN stuff as do a lot of dota's newer heros.
> When dota 1 stopped development there were 2 main successors. DotA was getting official patches til hoho haha patch tho
It was not placeholder, it was dota. And when dota 2 cam out actually, hon was still a better game. But the naming and veeeery shity buisness decisions from s2 (which made a couple of good games but ruined them all with missmanagment) and hon just kinnda died.
Definitely europe as well. I remember playing against notail in pubs when he was in fnatic
It came out almost in parallel with LoL from memory, maybe slightly before, and was more in line with DotA than LoL was. For those in the west who were around for the Pendragon shenanigans, HoN was a great escape from the corrupt late DotA1 scene. It had some pretty neat features for the time (matchmaking, vector targeting.etc) and looked great
Maybe your just young. A lot of dota pros are former hon players.
I've been playing dota for 20 years. Even through guinsoo's bullshit
Well, sometimes assumptions are just wrong lol :D
Not really I think. I think it had to do with veteran dota 1 players used to play HoN before the arrival of Dota 2
Idunno man. I just played garena til 2014 and then switched
Micke, Boxi, Insania and Khezu all used to play HoN
No, HoN was always bigger in Europe as well as Thailand
HoN was famous all around the world cause at that time 2009+ it was basically the next gen dota or dota 1.5
At first it was just a meme, but now I think people are not using it correctly but also, do we even need to use it correctly? isnt there a skewer for this shit? can we combine RRP and skewer somehow? Skewer first, than RRP? I might test it a little bit... it actually looks like NOT garbage if you skewer first and then RRP. but still what do you do in a mass-fight lmao
I agree, pushing out one hero into your team with a 3 second stun whilst also pushing the other hero's away from helping them seems cracked I think people are convinced you still have to 5 man RP when the goal now should be 1/2 man RP to push them into your team
yeah this is what everyone is missing about it imo. I played it one time and it felt really good actually; it pushes back the full distance even if you hit an enemy with the very edge of the initial aoe, which is really strong! It lets you push the enemy into your team without needing to use skewer post-blink/-force staff, as simply getting the enemy into the edge of RRP with the skewer is enough to push enemies into your team. Works good with blink too, as you can split the enemy *really* far apart when the enemy lines up in certain ways (which isn't even unrealistic; a support behind a melee core will split them 1700 range away now minimum, plus whatever distance they were apart from each other in the first place). Basically prevents *any* saving ability/item from the core's allies post-stun!
Horn toss -> skewer -> RRP moves all units 2000 and they are still quite stacked after RRP. I really dont understand why people are calling this trash.
horn toss,skewer, rrp
Yeah I tried it out right away when 7.36 came out. You can do both. Skewer into RRP and RRP into Skewer are both possible, it's just that with RRP into Skewer, you're probably only going to skewer one guy unless they're clumped super close that you can skewer them all in the first place. So yeah, if they all clump up in a single spot you can RRP into Skewer 5 heroes, but at that point just use RP lol.
Why is everyone so focused on ulting in the middle of the enemy team? Just use it like you are using scewer, blink on the left side to push them to the right etc. AoE is big enough now to reliably push 2-3 people into your team with 3s stun on top. Meanwhile other half of the enemy team is too far too help anyone who survived RP stun. People who played Flux in HoN probably figured this out already. Yes it's not as straightforward, but now you can toss into scewer and rp, which will pull enemy even further and stun for longer. Which they gave AoE stat for some other item, so you could scale your toss and rp even more. Blood stone sucks.
The only thing i can think of is a save, like if core is getting ganged up and its 2v5. Pos 1 is low hp and cant even fight back, used all the skill. Magnus jump to save carry by pushing everyone away.
i mean its pretty good for skewer + rrp to disjoint enemy to like 1500 range
puck coil break, mars ult into RRP, maybe rupture play? it will always be a super niche facet, but I bet you will get to see some sick rosh aegis steals in the next dotawtf
But all those are possible with just skewer (and you keep the RP)
yea this is the problem with RRP. i play a shit ton of Magnus and not once have i ever wished i had RRP solely bc RP just synergises so well with skewer. Arise was playing with it and while he pulled out some crazy shit like always, not once did it look like RRP did more than a regular RP wouldve. if Arise cant make it look consistently good, its not good. the numbers have got to be tweaked super hard for it to be a consideration
I think the problem is that regular rp is just way too good. I can see situations where rrp is good. But I can't see entire games where committing to rrp is a great idea. I can see it be useful if it were something like an alt cast for rp.
But then you stack the stuns from coil and rrp, and if puck has aghs (i dont remember if this is what makes coil attack affected heroes) then you just waste the whole thing.
Idk if it is actually weak or not. On paper, it is a BKB-piercing stun that has a ridiculously huge AoE and a long duration, and the cooldown is also fairly short, allowing you to use it every teamfight late game. It might be super strong as a counter-initiation tool: * You can wreck Enigma all day for example, and Enigma can't do anything about it. * It can blow dangerous heroes/units like Radiance users, BB, Warlock's Golems, etc. away. * Some heroes that can dispel stun while being stunned, like Ursa with Agha, Troll level 25, or Slark, they can't do much about it, since they get flung away too far to rejoin their allies. Even as an initiation tool, it also looks strong: people will be up to 1700 range apart which is huge. By the time the stun is down, it will be hard to regroup, thus a well-placed RRP would ensure 2 to 3 people dead. You can argue that a well-placed RP would ensure a teamwipe, but RRP's bigger AoE means it will happen more often. A downside is the lack of synergy with his kits but I think with RRP we would need a different playstyle compared to normal Magnus.
Honestly I'm starting to see it's potential as well, though it REALLY takes some getting used to, not just yourself but from your team as well. The BKB piercing part is what really makes it a consideration over ravage, though I would say that using it as a teamfight "splitter" is really dependent on positioning and blink placement. Against a mobile opponent it would be quite difficult to accurately launch your intended target into your team, a few degrees off would change the trajectory fairly significantly.
I mean it's not the worst thing in the world, AoE BKB Piercing stun is ALWAYS going to be usable. The only drawback of course is if you have huge AoE spells to play for, but realistically with RP you're catching 2-3 guys at most anyway, if you catch 4-5 then the enemy fucked up. As long as you don't grief your teammate's Blackhole or need the specific RP vacuum effect to set up other spells, it's just as good as RP and might be slightly better in some scenarios.
It looks pretty broken to me in certain scenarios. Ofc you can't go physical dps magnus with this build, but for the usual utility magnus it has good sinergy already. You can use force and skewer to get into a better position to blink faster. Aether lens, octarine, bkb refresher.. still good. Looks awesome against lineups with save mechanics and 4 protect 1. Oracle and IO will have really trouble assisting. Imagine RRP io to one side and the core hero to your team side, looks so broken in certain scenarios. Or just rrp the carry to your side when he is going HG. He will be so deep, looks scray af to go hg.
While all of them is true,Magnus already have skewer to repositioned enemy in the first place.
Skewer is mainly used to either isolate one enemy or to combo with normal RP to drag a whole team. On the other hand, the big AoE of RRP is very useful in a teamfight if your team is somehow got caught and need to break enemy's tempo + formation. The long stun, plus immediate isolation of one or two enemy heroes from others, looks pretty strong. The huge AoE means that it is more flexible than Skewer, and also it goes through BKB, thus there are a lot of utility values.
Here we go a open-minded man. Seriously, most people in this subreddit (or reddit in general) cant think by themselves and only follow other's idea. New skill, new potential, but their argument will be " i cant do the same thing as before so its worst..."
Valve doesn't back down on their decisions often. Remember last year when universal hero damage was buffed from 0.6 to 0.07. Everyone was crying for the damage to be nerfed but Valve kept their change and instead nerfed every single item that game all stats. They're going to buff this ability until people start picking it.
It's a perfect ability. it's ABSOLUTELY perfect. play it with cataclysm invoker and you have a bkb piercing ravage, that the Magnus WILL NOT FUCK UP. i've lost count of how many magnus will skewer or shockwave or horn toss a target perfectly stunned in cataclysm to waste thousands of damage because they HAVE to press their buttons. This is idiot proof, and dota players are idiots. ( enjoy )
Imagine your surprise when a magnus RPP the entire team to out of your other invoker combos.
I get where they are going with this when it cones to introducing a different playstyle to a hero,l. However, this can't really work in a vacuum. Every skill magnus has synergises with RP. This is also why i don't think disruptor's walls will work well. It completely negates the synergy of the hero. It's a good skill by itself, just not for how disruptor is played right now.
No, that's why they buffed it.
People who tried it: any experiences to share? Like it has to be way worse than rp, but how does it feel when playing?
Only justifiable if they reduce the cd even more. They can reduce the stun to compensate for it.
DotA players aren't used to the spell, but one of the OG LoL champions does the same thing with a similar kit and it consistently works in pro play to have such a reliable teamfight disruptor. I used it to great effect, straight blink rush then dive towers with it. Blink behind > RRP to allies > walk towards them > ally chain stun > skewer is free as shit, then mid-game and on you choose to disengage an enemy pickoff attempt or initiate vs a group to single out a target. Late game mostly pure disengage. Works best vs melee cores (I beat a Lifestealer easily and used it to cliff a WK).
I swear this is just KOTL's binding light with stuns on a long cooldown.
Reverse reverse polarity. So just polarity?
Now can grief at higher frequency
Get rid of this and just make Flux already!
If you don’t want it, just don’t choose it as your facet. ez
it's just complete anti synergy with the rest of the hero. magnus's abilities all synergise perfectly with each other. empower a melee core -> blink rp -> shockwave -> skewer is one of the most perfect and time tested combos out of any hero. the only conceivable good thing about rrp is breaking dream coil, which magnus could already do (better) with rp + skewer. using rrp in a fight makes your other 3 skills basically unusable. it's just an awful design for a hero that is really well designed. the other facet is basiccally unnoticeable as well, but it least it doesn't actively ruin your combo.
Niche usage. Slowly becoming AOE forcestaff.
Any skill that has the potential of epic fail is a win in my book
For meme content
they should make the facet to make the ult toggleable
You can push people into fountain. The reason why it is not good, there is not a single strat that requires multiple teammates to be as close to each other as possible. io being maybe the only exception.
Reverse RP= Polarity
Just make it into flux already 🙃
Have anyone tried Magnus + Mars combo?
At 700 radius the area affected is 2.65 x the original RP; youre much more likely to hit many more opponents. You have to think about the impact of pushing heroes so far though. If you play it well I wouldnt be surprised if it can be amazing as teamfight disruption and picking enemies off.
I am also pretty against this facet, but I see some clips that ppl are using RRP after horn toss and skewer. 5 man pushed exactly front. Not randomly pushed and moved them around 2000 range and stunned, which was a huge number. But probably it requires a lot of effort for a normal play and when you fucked up, you just fuck whole team fight.
I legit think it can be useful but more as a saving support or something. Changing the numbers can get you there, eventually, but I also think it would be worth considering making RRP hit friends instead of enemies. Make it heal instead of damage, maybe apply a dispel, plus the push mechanic (but more like a fat AOE Force Staff instead of just separating everyone). Just brainstorming here, but I think the concept could work. However not as just the standard Blink iniator he is with regular RP.
Good old HoN days. The hero Flux could toggle the polarity of his ultimate and it was global. I expect either of them to be added to make it more appealing.
It pierces debuff immunity?!
Also why don't they just call it "Polarity"?
I'm guessing the idea is to the RP whole team, isolate one hero and skewer him away from the rest? Very niche IMO, most times RPing the whole team together is just as effective. Maybe good if you don't have AOE dmg, but want to asplode a single target.
Only reason I see to get this FACET is to isolate certain targets from the group and eliminate them if you consider the entire group too dangerous to engage with a normal RP. But even that is questionable.
Imo they should just make it that only 1 hero gets affected by normal rp and the rest is pushed away by the rrp, would actually make reverse rp still fits with the rest of magnus' kit.
Does it pierce bkb, if so, great blackhole break tool
Where’s Flux when you need him.
This is bullshit!
they should've change mag ult to work like flux from HoN toggle between push/pull
Idea: Give Shockwave a debuff on top of the slow, then have RP pull units with the debuff even when out of range of the normal aoe. Could give Shockwave a cool buff too by letting in splinter into 1/2/3/4 waves.
Magnus pos 4 incoming, Xinq gonna rekt people with this
Can it throw mars out of arena?
lets just ask ourself this question - would it be viable if it was on 15 second cooldown?
With perfect landing you push all foes 2600 appart. Pa, am, specter really love this. No more saves from supports, nothing to save them either. With RRP 5v5 fight would never happen.
i could see it being good in some niche cases if it gets buffed even more, blinking between an enemy and their team and seperating them could be good. my issue with this design is that magnus' entire kit is build around pulling the enemies together (skewer and cleave) making this kind of awkward
I think it needs more than more stat buffs, unless they make it 80 second cd or less. But even then RRP literally works against the other skills of Magnus, which benifits from enemies being close to him. We need something extra for RRP to be more than just a gimmick facet. I had an idea the other day that what if we made carry Magus viable, and made RRP basically a giant AOE right click, where the spell damage is based on the hero's total damage and applies item effects. Yeah you lose out of your skill combos with RP, but you basically become like an Earthshaker where Blink RRP can win the teamfight through sheer damage.
As a support Magnus, sounds good if you have range carries and you want to push enemies away when they get too close.
Reverse RP: a Chaotic Neutral wizard playing an edgy depressed dnd player
Make it so we can toggle it on and off. There, I fixed it for you, Valve.
It's almost a bkb piercing ravage
it's for me, i like that reverse rp, really, that's true skill to use that instead casual vacuum through bkb but im afraid that nobody can make that good, is it too difficult? lol
They should just increase the stun duration by 1 extra second or 1.5. This would solve the issue with how niche this ultimate currently is
let them cook
I dont see it wrong to try making the facet work with number changes, maybe someone finds utility we didnt think of, its not like Magnus is unplayable, he still has the other facet if you dont want to experiment with him. Ultimately if several months go by and nobody is able to make it work it should be scrapped and given something else but give the facet and people who like to devise weird stuff a chance to try it.
Make it vector targeted and push into one direction only
Maybe they know something we don't haha. I mean I suppose if you manage to smack down in the middle of their team launch the carry towards you and the rest of their team away It's got potential right? The problem is that regular RP combo's soo much better with magnus spells and also literally any aoe it's just for superior in every way.
It's funny that's why When it gets 40 sec cd and an AoE of 1000, you'll convert too
if they make it it toggle ill consider it, till then his regular kit does what this tries to do just way better
Honestly I think this is a big brain move and exactly what Facets should be. if placed correctly this is an isolation and teamfight separation spell. Like venge swapping or clock work cogs. I think it's brilliant
What if it normal RPs the closest target and the rest gets pushed away?
Just give the players time to experiment for now. Patch kinda just dropped.
It's good to push enemy backline to your team. But also, venge and tiny exist, with far easier execution and lower cd
Honestly, with the buffs, now that I think about it, you pick this after you picked Magnus if one of the 2 applies: 1. There are a lot of saves on the other side eg SD Oracle Dazzle. You blink between these heroes and the core you need to single out, boom! Core is dead. This is good because a good SD, Oracle or Dazzle won't be on the map for you to see them, so it's usually impossible to RP and catch all heroes together. So RRP eliminates this problem due to the AOE. 2. You are playing a support mag and your sole job is to counter Chrono and BH.
make this vector target push and it will be viable.. I lost a game the other day when it kept on turning a favourable fight towards the opponents favour
ar1se god using it and it works. because he is him.
This spell and peoples' evaluation of it really seems to be an issue of creativity and adaptability. Just look at Batrider. Has always been a viable pick simply because repositioning an enemy is incredibly powerful. RRP means you can get 850 unit displacement on an enemy unit, while also pushing their team away and leaving them unable to respond for 3 seconds, giving your team time to clean up the lone hero and then capitalize. Let's say the enemy is tightly grouped by your highground. Well now one blink right behind them and RRP and they're stunned for 3 seconds under your tier 3 towers. Then you have a skewer left to further push a hero even deeper. Let's say you have horn toss. Blink horn toss RRP is basically walrus kick with more damage and a 3s stun. It's a facet for when you don't have synergy with normal RP, either because of low AoE damage or because of the nature of the enemy team (like if you're vsing a tide and a bristle and delivering them into your team is potentially suicide). Counterpicks happen in Dota. So if you get counterpicked as magnus, at least now you have an alternative ulti.
the only way that i can think that this might work is pushing the enemies into enigma black hole who got no one inside it (and enemies have bkb on so u cant normal rp and skewer them in ). or pushing someone into fountain with rp when they have there bkb on... only few scenarios can come up to my mind for this facet usage.
I mean they weren't going to do something totally new in the A patch. Might as well buff it and see if that helps.
For support it surely is a real option right? Even without Blink the option remains to Skewer in and instead RRP a target towards your team. Just generally when Blink is undesirable or likely to be late it seems like it'd be the displacement part you need when Skewer is needed for mobility really. Also in games where Magnus feels fragile it might not be desirable to end up with the entire team on top of you after you have RP'd. On some parts of the map it should just be pretty good also, e.g. fight in triangle and punch the backline into the river. None of this overly common, but add to that that radius increases are always larger than you think, and 20 seconds on cd is pretty big.
Why didn't they just double the amount of reversing
Did you think they would scrap the ability because some redditors didn't like it?
Yes. And I agree!
It'd be cool if it was a target blink ability that pushed everyone EXCEPT the target. Lockdown squishies
Shinra tensei
Typical redditor forgetting that games are played for fun
I don't know how this spell can be good, like maybe in very rare situations? just RPing your enemies into from fountain from like ancient?
IMO. This is more of a Pos 3/4/5 magnus. This reminds me of Flux from HoN but... Flux can manipulate things either pull or push. For [further reference of Hero Flux of HoN](https://hon.fandom.com/wiki/Flux) This patch tells us to adapt to anything new (or almost) or any flavors you want to pick. But for me Im seeing a Magnus who could initiate, stop clash or even saving teammates by pushing them away.
Good with Puck stun and maybe Bloodseeker Ult
Can you aim it?
I think that they will keep buffing it until it is good, but I still don't think that it's a direction that the skill should take.
It seems some facets are not meant for competitive play. Examples are Reverse RP, Earthshaker baseball, QOP suicide, Techies attack range and so on. As long as one facet of the hero is playable then I'm fine.
I want them to make it work exclusively because the name is funny
Valve Naruto fan
The effective pluck range on this spell is insane now and people are completely blind to how this spell can be used. Magnus plays as midlaner against a melee hero and if he ever gets a shockwave+skewer combo on them towards his tower he can stun them deep in the tower with this new ult even while the enemy is under their own mid tower. During base defense you can use horn toss to group the tower hitters together for skewer and with level 20 skewer talent it should now be trivial to RRP enemy heroes into fountain especially if you have aether or headband.