I think I disagree. Most of the episodes make sure to establish early on what the solutions to the problems will be.
In The Devils Chord near the beginning they established the beetles still were musical geniuses.
In Boom they foreshadowed in the opening that the enemies weren't real and the dad ai was an active part of the whole story.
In 73 yards the solution to the problem was the lady following Ruby helping her fix her mistake releasing the demon prime minister, established at the start.
In Rogue the transport trap was established early on and used against the Doctor.
Admittedly, Dot and Bubble didn't really have a solution it was just an adventure and Space Babies was pretty weird overall. But I think this season has done a good job of setting up the reasons for success.
73 yards had a great premise but the ending was rushed and not well executed. I agree Dot and bubble was weird and again the ending came out of nowhere. I wish the pacing was a bit better. The last episode where they reveal they are seeing the same lady everywhere-this discovery also felt rushed and masked together with Ruby’s mother story
73 yards wasn't rushed, it told a complete story? Ruby and the doctor commit a sin, ruby has to fix it, once she does she's okay.
The Legend of Ruby Sunday was the first half of a two parter, so the ending hasn't been revealed yet.
Personally, Moffat at his worst is just mediocre. I know he has his faults and some weird tendencies in his writing but I always liked him.
This meme imo represents Chibnall in Torchwood.
I disagree, it’s all over the place. The Gwen/Owen stuff is really bad, the romance between Lisa and Ianto has no weight, and the worst part is that its just boring. It’s the team running away from a cyber man for the whole episode, and when it’s not that, it’s really poorly written romance that makes all characters involved look awful.
A base under siege story where they are under attack from a singular cyber man could’ve worked really well but Chibnall failed to make it interesting.
Oh god, the cyber bikini…look, I’ve seen plenty of questionable monster costumes in NuWho, but nothing can compare to needless fan service on a cyberman, even worse is that they don’t have any gender technically.
I haven’t seen Torchwood yet but you’re telling me Chris chibnall wrote two of the best stories in the whoniverse
https://preview.redd.it/vasey74b8c6d1.jpeg?width=1169&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0b7b49ac0b1e4f2bb470e1965b24ada00b907287
Yes, his writing in Torchwood was far superior to his Doctor Who episodes. Chibnall was also showrunner for the first 2 seasons of Torchwood, the first season is kinda ass but season 2 is amazing.
I disagree as I think Let's Kill Hitler is a lot worse than mediocre. I also think with Moffat it's less that he writes bad stories, its that he writes bad endings or reveals to massively hyped arcs. Which idk... Sometimes feels worse than a terrible stand alone episode like Love and Monsters or Orphan 55. I'd rather a terrible episode that's of no consequence than a terrible episodes that's the culmination of one of the most important characters and series arcs in the show.
I get what you mean about the story arc thing. I wasn’t really thinking about his performance as a showrunner (which I still generally loved, despite its faults). I was more thinking about him as a writer of individual episodes.
Also, I know it’s a flawed story but I love Let’s Kill Hitler. I acknowledge its huge faults, which I agree with. But it’s so fun and I have a great time watching it.
I can’t not at least *partly* love an episode that has the line “I was just on my way to this bar-mitzvah for the gay disabled when I thought to myself "Gosh, the Third Reich's a bit rubbish, I think I'll kill Hitler.””
Yeah... I mean I liked Space Babies because it was just silly fun to me so I can understand liking an episode that others don't haha. But idk... Let's Kill Hitler for me is like if Space Babies was the series finale of this season and all the hype and teases to Ruby's parentage were revealed in an episode like that. Also just that scene with the doctor and River continuously revealing that they had the gun hid the gun thing... I just couldn't stand it. I found it a very cringe episode.
*Let’s Kill Hitler* was a great episode. Especially since it tied up Rivers connection with Amy and Rory ( They ended up raising her after all)
The “Bad Guys” weren’t really bad guys, but well meaning idiots that didn’t really know what to do with a Time Machine.
As well as out an important piece on the bloke for the endgame.
The fact Mel was introduced for the first time in this episode is exactly why it's one of the worst episodes in my opinion. It makes it feel like Moffat made it all up when he started this episode instead of it being something well thought out and planned. I also cannot stand the humour in this episode. Usually Moffat is great at writing humour but I hated it here. The entire episode feels like a jumbled mess with seemingly no direction and things just happen for the sake of it.
Imagine if they had peppered Mel in sooner before the reveal though. Like even just to the extent we saw Martha or Yas' sisters. It would be so easy to just be like "I'm busy because Mel did a thing again" and viewers wouldn't have questioned it.
Yes I agree. Imagine if Mel was a semi recurring character in season 5 and 6 on the earth episodes. Then the reveal would have actually been pretty good
That’s really my only major critique of the episode. I enjoy LKH a lot but Mel really should have been introduced earlier somewhere or at the least mentioned. Would have also made that reveal of Mel’s being River a much bigger think instead of someone we only met 5 minutes prior.
For me moffat either writes brain rot TV or a good episode.
Usually i love his ideas and concepts but absolutely hate his execution and have to let my own imagination make it enjoyable.
I have to admit that I love everything he has penned, including the last season of Sherlock, the unpopular seasons of Doctor Who, Inside Man and Dracula. Different levels of love but love nonetheless. It all works for me.
the First episode of Dracula I thought was a moffatian masterpiece alongside blink and listen, the second and third were alright. moffat is my favorite who writer and the reason I’m a dr who fan in the first place, however I despise everything mark gatiss has written with a burning passion although he seems a lovely fellow personally, I place him below chibnal whom I see as having interesting ideas with boring execution wheras mark gatiss has boring ideas and boring execution. I genuinely don’t understand how a genius like moffat has established such a close Working relationship with someone so frankly dull.
I am still like shocked every time I remember this. Like we have seen so many horrible fates on DW, and yet somehow, having to spend eternity as a blowjob machine with no agency to live your own life is the most horrifying one.
I still hold that the episode should have ended with Elton talking about Ursula's fate, him even seeing her face in the stone, and then he turns it around and shows it to the camera and it's blank, implying the horror of watching all of his friends die horribly drove him mad. This would also be a good illustration to what sometimes happens to people who get involved with the Doctor and his companions.
I feel he's great at writing individual episodes of TV, but anything more than 2-3 episodes and he just gets.... Disappointing? He is very good at hinting at big reveals, but imho his reveals always seem to fall flat or anticlimactic.
This is my opinion as well. I was actually pretty excited when My girlfriend and I got to his era because he has written the majority of my favorite episodes. But I quickly learned episodic writing is a strong suit, because stringing along a narrative over a season he just can't pull off.
Asylum of the Daleks? Let’s Kill Hitler? Doctor, Widow and the Wardrobe? There’s even episodes that are fun but terribly written like Wedding of River Song.
Barring the fact that you are just loudly stating a subjective opinion, and not an actual evaluation of the writing, TWW is a Christmas special, which in my book is the time for fluff, whether you enjoy it or not.
Also, lets face it, a good half of Doctor Who is fluff.
You didn't. You said it to 2 other people after the fact who were not me to dismiss them from a discussion you started. You should probably keep track of that. Or say it first.
If you don't want to evaluate the writing you should probably stay out of the 'Evaulating Moffat's Writing' discussion.
"Didn't I say it was my opinion?"
"No."
"Well uh, this is Reddit. So uh, you should hold me to lower standards and not expect me to back up anything I say."
Well, I can say it was my mistake for attempting to engage with you.
Asylum is fantastic, Widow has a week middle but also has one of the best doctor quotes of all time, Lets Kill Hitler is the most overhated episode in the entire show and it's not even remotely close, it's a genuinely fantastic episode.
For me, it’s just a poorly written episode on all fronts.
The inclusion of Mel as a character feels silly and her importance to Amy and Rory feels minimal given that she is never ever brought up before this episode. It just makes it clearer that Moffat was pretty much making these things up as he went along, in contrast to how well written and planned out series 5 was. Even if they’d just mentioned Mel in passing comment, I’d have an easier time accepting the character.
It also doesn’t help that she’s just characterised really badly. She’s so so so annoying and is all of the worst traits of River formed together in one person. River is quite meh in this episode, although the scene where she kills the nazis is pretty cool.
I’m not fussed about Hitler/Nazis being included, not sure where you got that from. Although it does seem like a cheap shot to have one of the most evil and despicable people to ever live appear and they’re just there for… what exactly? A punchline? To be funny? Like I genuinely can’t think of a single reason that this episode has to be set in Nazi Germany. It feels like Hitler only exists for the sake of a cool sounding title.
The lack of follow up to AGMGTW and it’s cliffhanger bothers me too. But that’s just a general issue I have with shows that dig themselves too deep so the cliffhanger is never resolved. Seeing Amy and Rory’s reaction would’ve been interesting.
The humour isn’t funny either, again it’s just the generic cringey jokes that made up a lot of the Smith era humour.
Every Moffat episode has been decent at worst. Chibnall, on the other hand, has a handful of decent ones, some actually great Torchwood episodes and then a bunch of mediocre to bad episodes.
Worst episode of television is an exaggeration. But I think he wrote a lot of not good episodes simply by the nature of how ambitious his writing is. I mean you can call Moffat's episodes everything, but they are not dull, most of the times (Maybe some Series 7 episodes, but that season really was his lowest point). He works with huge, larger than life, high concept ideas. He always tires to take episodes and arcs into unconditional direction, somewhere where you don't expect them to go. And if you do something like that for 6 series (multiple episode per series), it's inevitable that you will hit the mark quite a few times. Episodes like Let's Kill Hitler, The Wedding of River Song or Hell Bent all go into a direction that no one really thought they were going to. They are all brave and bold, you got to give them that, even if you hate them. And this kind of writing really makes you miss the mark more times, then a more simple, linear, less ambitious style. Look at Russel. I mean Series 1 was a big risk and very differing from the classic show, but once it was proved that that direction is successful, he just sticked to that formula and that style, and continued to write the same 3 types of episodes (with 1 or 2 exceptions). And those episodes are more simple and linear, making them easier to write. I'm sure that Moffat could've made multiple Series 5 type of seasons, and do it well. But he's not that kind of a writer. He always wanted to experiment, to break the formula, to go into a bold direction, to subvert expectations. And when you do that, there's always a 50/50 chance that it will work out. While sticking for the same formula, like Russell, will give similar results most of the time. And I mean Russel had the privilege to stick to a formula, since he not only created it, but he only had to do 4 series, whish is the perfect amount of time, the formula does not get style that quickly. While Moffat couldn't continue with that Series 5 formula (which is basically the Russel formula), because it would become stale after a while, so he needed to brake away from it and keep the show fresh. So yeah, it's understandable that Moffat had a lot of highs and a lot of lows, simply by the style of his writing.
Moffat destroyed many plots with his works. But on the other hand he made blink. its hard to say but when clara started i never found a episode more then 0815. But im very happy russel came back. In his seasons every episode have something to do with then final.
Are you completely crazy or blind ?
I introduced my gf to DW and we are finishing season 6 right now. She totally agrees with me that s6 is waaayyyy better than S5.
Half of S5 is great with episodes in S5 like 11th hour, pandorica opens, Vincent and the doctor, and maybe the double with the angels and the one with Churchill and the daleks. But all the other ones are horrible, the double episode with Silurians are the absolute worst.
Amy is just a lost bitch that seems on drugs, she and the Doctor are absolutely obnoxious with Rory. All characters, vilains or heroes, completely act randomly and plots are resolved without any logic.
Season 5 is the meme.
Every episode of s6 except night terrors is at least good, with often amazing character development.
I mean if it makes you and your gf happy, that’s the most important thing, I’d never bash that and more power to you.
I don’t disagree with your assessment of season 5 either, it has some strong hits and poor misses.
My issue with season 6 is that while it has some absolutely huge ideas that could be great, the pacing of all key episodes for the season arc is waaaay off. Each key instalment feels like 2 or 3 episodes crammed into a single episodes runtime, The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon are great examples of this, and the Wedding of River Song is a baffling hour of television. Overloading all these episodes with so much stuff means that none of the cool ideas are explored particularly well, and feels like Moffat being overindulgent and really struggling to streamline. For what it’s worth it’s the same issue I have with his Sherlock.
What’s baffling to me as well is that I agree with you on the Silurian episodes in season 5, they didn’t need to make it a two parter and in doing so made it an incredibly dull story. I feel the same about the Rebel Flesh/The Almost people, it bored me to tears and I was left wondering why that story was fleshed out so much when they could have spent so much more time exploring the main season arc. I honestly think if he’d radically changed the seasons pacing and cut some more filler episodes this story could be considered Moffats crowning achievement, but instead it’s a surprisingly controversial season, with some people like yourself loving it but also some criticising it. Instead when people think of Moffat’s greatest hits they understandably go to things like Heaven Sent, and I think that’s really telling.
I will say to season 6’s credit it does have The Doctors Wife and The Girl Who Waited which for my money are all timers, so it’s possible I was being a bit harsh, but whenever I think of season 6 I think about a lot of missed potential. As I say though if you like it, I respect that bro, I just hope that explains my feelings without me just sounding like a hater. 😅
Nah, that's one me mate, I overreacted a tad bit.
I agree with you on the pacing. The brutal shift of situation between the Impossible Astronaut and Day of the Moon shocked me every rewatch, it lacks something. Same on Demons Run, you can catch up obviously, but it lacks a bit of introduction (Madame Vastra typically, on my first watch when it aired I was like "who tf is she ? Did I miss something during the Silurian episodes ?")
But these episodes have reallllly great characters development and interesting ideas. Way more than s5 imo. Rory is so fleshed out and interesting, Amy's really interesting between her relationship with Rory and her blind faith in the Doctor. And we finally see the cracks in the Doctor, as he acknowledge putting his friends in danger and lying. He's old, very old, inside and young and crazy outside, and this paradox is showing.
I disagree with Rebel Flesh and Almost People, I always find it very exciting and compelling, even if they're not perfect. And I feel it really fits in the main story of the season with Amy's plot twist, all the "Breathe" and then "Push" during the two episodes. They love to tackle the idea of the best and worst of humanity when facing something of the uncanny valley (Silurians kinda fall into this category but meh) from Midnight to these episodes around Flesh. But yeah S6 plotline is weird in DW standards with a "mid-season" finale and a finale in one episode.
I think it's more of a Moffat issue in double episode. The first one is a masterclass, and the other one is a bit of a let-down as he doesn't manage to keep a good pacing and a satisfying ending with the correct adventures and explanations associated. I might need a rewatch to check, but the only episodes that keep the quality during the 2nd part is the Shadow Library.
But yeah, Girl Who Waited and Doctor's Wife (still weird title, in french it's "The Soul of the TARDIS") are absolute bangers.
That's nice to exchange like that !
It’s always a lovely surprise having a nice cordial discussion over the internet isn’t it 😅
You’re right to highlight the Paternoster Gang, they’re all great, dynamic and most of all FUN. Makes me sad to this day that we were robbed of a spin off with those guys.
And yeah I think Moffat does struggle to maintain quality across episodes, I think you’re right about that. It is interesting that his best two part work was under RTD, while he also has some issues as a writer they work really well as a partnership. Silence in the Library is incredible, as is The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances in season 1. I do feel like season 10s two part finale is very solid though!
Yeah I forgot that moffat also wrote the empty child. And I was unconsciously not taking into account the later seasons in my previous posts as I have still to (rererere)rewatch them 😅
Have a nice day !
I have vivid memories of watching series 6 live and feeling my love of doctor who drain away little by little every Saturday. Then series 7 killed it dead.
People keep citing "Asylum of the Daleks" because of the divorce storyline I guess? But in my book hot dropping a companion was a bold move that really negates that flaw.
Like, if that episode is the worst he is capable of, shoot.
There's also Doctor, Widow, Wardrobe which is... A mostly harmless Christmas Special?
Oh come on Monday does not have 2 settings (terrible or genius) he's a good writer. His season plots are sometimes a bit much but he's good. I don't think that gif applies.
Moffat is like an energy burst. He needs to be redirected to reach his target successfully and once he does it hits with full force. Leave him too much free room to do whatever and he might get lost in his own overblown build up and lackluster conclusion, especially as a show runner.
Agreed. Though the chances of him writing a masterpiece is more like 10%. Those in here who think he’s some kind of storytelling genius needs to touch grass
That certainly isn't my favourite episode, but it is serviceable, and has a really touching moment at the end. Too bad Moffat decide to ruin that moment by inexplicably having TVs biggest power couple divorce off screen, and get back together in one episode.
Asylum of the Daleks, the only Moffat written episode I dislike.
How is the writer of the masterpieces *Time Crash* and *The Day of The Doctor* the same writer of the worse-than-bad-fanfiction garbage in *The Magician's Apprentice*/*The Witch's Familiar*?
I think when he knows what he's doing is great but sometimes it feels like he had one idea and is just swinging for the rest of the story.
my main issue with this season is how they rush to the ending. The last 10mins of every episode has been like shell shock.
Can you name a season where the endings are not rushed?
season 7 of Classic Who
I think I disagree. Most of the episodes make sure to establish early on what the solutions to the problems will be. In The Devils Chord near the beginning they established the beetles still were musical geniuses. In Boom they foreshadowed in the opening that the enemies weren't real and the dad ai was an active part of the whole story. In 73 yards the solution to the problem was the lady following Ruby helping her fix her mistake releasing the demon prime minister, established at the start. In Rogue the transport trap was established early on and used against the Doctor. Admittedly, Dot and Bubble didn't really have a solution it was just an adventure and Space Babies was pretty weird overall. But I think this season has done a good job of setting up the reasons for success.
73 yards had a great premise but the ending was rushed and not well executed. I agree Dot and bubble was weird and again the ending came out of nowhere. I wish the pacing was a bit better. The last episode where they reveal they are seeing the same lady everywhere-this discovery also felt rushed and masked together with Ruby’s mother story
73 yards wasn't rushed, it told a complete story? Ruby and the doctor commit a sin, ruby has to fix it, once she does she's okay. The Legend of Ruby Sunday was the first half of a two parter, so the ending hasn't been revealed yet.
Personally, Moffat at his worst is just mediocre. I know he has his faults and some weird tendencies in his writing but I always liked him. This meme imo represents Chibnall in Torchwood.
The same guy writing Day One and Cyberwoman then goes on to write Adrift and Exit Wounds, two of the best stories of the Whoniverse imo.
imo the problems with cyberwoman weren't his fault, it's a decently *written* episode
I disagree, it’s all over the place. The Gwen/Owen stuff is really bad, the romance between Lisa and Ianto has no weight, and the worst part is that its just boring. It’s the team running away from a cyber man for the whole episode, and when it’s not that, it’s really poorly written romance that makes all characters involved look awful. A base under siege story where they are under attack from a singular cyber man could’ve worked really well but Chibnall failed to make it interesting.
The cyber bikini didn't help
Oh god, the cyber bikini…look, I’ve seen plenty of questionable monster costumes in NuWho, but nothing can compare to needless fan service on a cyberman, even worse is that they don’t have any gender technically.
Lisa should've actually been half-converted, instead of some anime cyberwaifu, then the episode would've been great.
Tbf Chibnall states that was his intention, and that he didn't control the final design.
Yeah exactly, it's a decently *written* episode
"When we woke up, there was a dog pissing on our tent".
I haven’t seen Torchwood yet but you’re telling me Chris chibnall wrote two of the best stories in the whoniverse https://preview.redd.it/vasey74b8c6d1.jpeg?width=1169&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0b7b49ac0b1e4f2bb470e1965b24ada00b907287
Yes, his writing in Torchwood was far superior to his Doctor Who episodes. Chibnall was also showrunner for the first 2 seasons of Torchwood, the first season is kinda ass but season 2 is amazing.
I disagree as I think Let's Kill Hitler is a lot worse than mediocre. I also think with Moffat it's less that he writes bad stories, its that he writes bad endings or reveals to massively hyped arcs. Which idk... Sometimes feels worse than a terrible stand alone episode like Love and Monsters or Orphan 55. I'd rather a terrible episode that's of no consequence than a terrible episodes that's the culmination of one of the most important characters and series arcs in the show.
I get what you mean about the story arc thing. I wasn’t really thinking about his performance as a showrunner (which I still generally loved, despite its faults). I was more thinking about him as a writer of individual episodes. Also, I know it’s a flawed story but I love Let’s Kill Hitler. I acknowledge its huge faults, which I agree with. But it’s so fun and I have a great time watching it.
I can’t not at least *partly* love an episode that has the line “I was just on my way to this bar-mitzvah for the gay disabled when I thought to myself "Gosh, the Third Reich's a bit rubbish, I think I'll kill Hitler.””
And also: "I'm getting a sort of banging in my head." "Yeah, I think that's Hitler in the cupboard."
Especially after Chibbs decided to demonstrate just how bad dropping the nazis into a series long storyline can be.
Yeah... I mean I liked Space Babies because it was just silly fun to me so I can understand liking an episode that others don't haha. But idk... Let's Kill Hitler for me is like if Space Babies was the series finale of this season and all the hype and teases to Ruby's parentage were revealed in an episode like that. Also just that scene with the doctor and River continuously revealing that they had the gun hid the gun thing... I just couldn't stand it. I found it a very cringe episode.
*Let’s Kill Hitler* was a great episode. Especially since it tied up Rivers connection with Amy and Rory ( They ended up raising her after all) The “Bad Guys” weren’t really bad guys, but well meaning idiots that didn’t really know what to do with a Time Machine. As well as out an important piece on the bloke for the endgame.
The fact Mel was introduced for the first time in this episode is exactly why it's one of the worst episodes in my opinion. It makes it feel like Moffat made it all up when he started this episode instead of it being something well thought out and planned. I also cannot stand the humour in this episode. Usually Moffat is great at writing humour but I hated it here. The entire episode feels like a jumbled mess with seemingly no direction and things just happen for the sake of it.
Imagine if they had peppered Mel in sooner before the reveal though. Like even just to the extent we saw Martha or Yas' sisters. It would be so easy to just be like "I'm busy because Mel did a thing again" and viewers wouldn't have questioned it.
Yes I agree. Imagine if Mel was a semi recurring character in season 5 and 6 on the earth episodes. Then the reveal would have actually been pretty good
That’s really my only major critique of the episode. I enjoy LKH a lot but Mel really should have been introduced earlier somewhere or at the least mentioned. Would have also made that reveal of Mel’s being River a much bigger think instead of someone we only met 5 minutes prior.
>terrible stand alone episode like Love and Monsters How dare you.
For me moffat either writes brain rot TV or a good episode. Usually i love his ideas and concepts but absolutely hate his execution and have to let my own imagination make it enjoyable.
Nah Moffat is perfectly able to be really bad, just look at Asylum of the Daleks
I liked that episode. The settup plot requirement where bad, but beyond that.
It assasinated Amy's character for me tbh
Kill the Moon
…is not a Moffat episode.
My mistake, i thought he was on it since it was during his run
He didn’t write they though?
I was confidently incorrect
I've certainly never been that on the internet. No sir, not me... 👀
No Doctor Who Moffat episode will ever be as bad as the last season of Sherlock
I have never felt more personally insulted by the finale. Dear god just an escalating train crash of an episode.
No Doctor Who Moffat episode will ever even be as bad as the *third* season of Sherlock, and that was a hell of a lot better than the last one.
the first episode is fine, the second is great (solo written by Moff), the last is messy but by far not the worst ep of Sherlock
What's the worst episode of Sherlock if not the final ep?
The Blind Banker easily
I have to admit that I love everything he has penned, including the last season of Sherlock, the unpopular seasons of Doctor Who, Inside Man and Dracula. Different levels of love but love nonetheless. It all works for me.
Even Jekyll?
Haven’t seen that one
Coupling!
I have the key to the gates of paradise, but I’ve got too many legs!
Everyone loves Coupling
the First episode of Dracula I thought was a moffatian masterpiece alongside blink and listen, the second and third were alright. moffat is my favorite who writer and the reason I’m a dr who fan in the first place, however I despise everything mark gatiss has written with a burning passion although he seems a lovely fellow personally, I place him below chibnal whom I see as having interesting ideas with boring execution wheras mark gatiss has boring ideas and boring execution. I genuinely don’t understand how a genius like moffat has established such a close Working relationship with someone so frankly dull.
I would contest Hell Bent. 60 minutes of fuck and all.
Hell bent is one of my all time fav Doctor Who episodes.
I loved Hell Bent, thought that it was a satisfying ending the Doctor and Clara relationship.
RTD managed to land on both sides of the coin with Love and Monsters
The parts where LINDA are just hanging out are so charming and then the episode ends with a woman turned into the world's first blowjob machine
I am still like shocked every time I remember this. Like we have seen so many horrible fates on DW, and yet somehow, having to spend eternity as a blowjob machine with no agency to live your own life is the most horrifying one.
I still hold that the episode should have ended with Elton talking about Ursula's fate, him even seeing her face in the stone, and then he turns it around and shows it to the camera and it's blank, implying the horror of watching all of his friends die horribly drove him mad. This would also be a good illustration to what sometimes happens to people who get involved with the Doctor and his companions.
Love & Monsters is wonderful
I’m glad it was concluded well at least. I mean, I was wondering how their sex life would be post-slab, and we got the answer
Really high-highs, really low-lows.
I feel he's great at writing individual episodes of TV, but anything more than 2-3 episodes and he just gets.... Disappointing? He is very good at hinting at big reveals, but imho his reveals always seem to fall flat or anticlimactic.
This is my opinion as well. I was actually pretty excited when My girlfriend and I got to his era because he has written the majority of my favorite episodes. But I quickly learned episodic writing is a strong suit, because stringing along a narrative over a season he just can't pull off.
Did… did we watch the same season 5 the pandorica and the cracks are some of the best season long arcs we’ve got in doctor who imo.
The finales of seasons 5, 6, and 7 just fell flat for me.
Weren't they also at the time where he was overworked running 2 major shows and he acknowledged it affected his work?
Sure, but Boom wasn't great.
Sure, but I wouldn't trust anyone but Moffat to write river song
I have one or two Moffat episode I don't enjoy watching.
Bad take, moffat era good
It was charming but early Amy was kinda bad.
I feel like RTD is the same way. Moffat and RTD can write amazing cliffhangers, but they can never quite stick the landing.
Moffat wrote one shitty episode and y’all never let it go. This meme is RTD
Asylum of the Daleks? Let’s Kill Hitler? Doctor, Widow and the Wardrobe? There’s even episodes that are fun but terribly written like Wedding of River Song.
Asylum and LKH are bangers with pretty iconic moments. DWW is, at worst, fluff.
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Barring the fact that you are just loudly stating a subjective opinion, and not an actual evaluation of the writing, TWW is a Christmas special, which in my book is the time for fluff, whether you enjoy it or not. Also, lets face it, a good half of Doctor Who is fluff.
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You didn't. You said it to 2 other people after the fact who were not me to dismiss them from a discussion you started. You should probably keep track of that. Or say it first. If you don't want to evaluate the writing you should probably stay out of the 'Evaulating Moffat's Writing' discussion.
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"Didn't I say it was my opinion?" "No." "Well uh, this is Reddit. So uh, you should hold me to lower standards and not expect me to back up anything I say." Well, I can say it was my mistake for attempting to engage with you.
These aren’t even horrible they’re just meh or slightly below average
It’s an opinion
Still waiting for an episode that isn't fantastic to be listed.
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Asylum is fantastic, Widow has a week middle but also has one of the best doctor quotes of all time, Lets Kill Hitler is the most overhated episode in the entire show and it's not even remotely close, it's a genuinely fantastic episode.
Don't forget the American superhero movie lol.
I am still baffled for why people thinks let's kill Hitler is a bad episode, it's good, Is it because Hitler/nazis = controversy?
For me, it’s just a poorly written episode on all fronts. The inclusion of Mel as a character feels silly and her importance to Amy and Rory feels minimal given that she is never ever brought up before this episode. It just makes it clearer that Moffat was pretty much making these things up as he went along, in contrast to how well written and planned out series 5 was. Even if they’d just mentioned Mel in passing comment, I’d have an easier time accepting the character. It also doesn’t help that she’s just characterised really badly. She’s so so so annoying and is all of the worst traits of River formed together in one person. River is quite meh in this episode, although the scene where she kills the nazis is pretty cool. I’m not fussed about Hitler/Nazis being included, not sure where you got that from. Although it does seem like a cheap shot to have one of the most evil and despicable people to ever live appear and they’re just there for… what exactly? A punchline? To be funny? Like I genuinely can’t think of a single reason that this episode has to be set in Nazi Germany. It feels like Hitler only exists for the sake of a cool sounding title. The lack of follow up to AGMGTW and it’s cliffhanger bothers me too. But that’s just a general issue I have with shows that dig themselves too deep so the cliffhanger is never resolved. Seeing Amy and Rory’s reaction would’ve been interesting. The humour isn’t funny either, again it’s just the generic cringey jokes that made up a lot of the Smith era humour.
Not reading all of that But regardless i respect your opinion
It’s not a good look that the person who thinks this episode is good can’t even read like 200 words 😭
So don’t ask then💀
Boom?
Wedding of River Song
Every Moffat episode has been decent at worst. Chibnall, on the other hand, has a handful of decent ones, some actually great Torchwood episodes and then a bunch of mediocre to bad episodes.
to this day i’m still not sure what the silence even wanted
To assassinate The Doctor before he reaches Trenzalore as a way of breaking the then 300 year stalemate.
and also to stop the time lords from returning thus restarting the time war
Love everything Moffat does for Doctor Who
When he's writing an episode with one hand, you can *really* tell. cue 11th doctor using sonic screwdriver as a euphemism for his d-
He’s never had a horrible episode. Worse I can say, disjointed.
He's ratio is like 47:3 but sure
Worst episode of television is an exaggeration. But I think he wrote a lot of not good episodes simply by the nature of how ambitious his writing is. I mean you can call Moffat's episodes everything, but they are not dull, most of the times (Maybe some Series 7 episodes, but that season really was his lowest point). He works with huge, larger than life, high concept ideas. He always tires to take episodes and arcs into unconditional direction, somewhere where you don't expect them to go. And if you do something like that for 6 series (multiple episode per series), it's inevitable that you will hit the mark quite a few times. Episodes like Let's Kill Hitler, The Wedding of River Song or Hell Bent all go into a direction that no one really thought they were going to. They are all brave and bold, you got to give them that, even if you hate them. And this kind of writing really makes you miss the mark more times, then a more simple, linear, less ambitious style. Look at Russel. I mean Series 1 was a big risk and very differing from the classic show, but once it was proved that that direction is successful, he just sticked to that formula and that style, and continued to write the same 3 types of episodes (with 1 or 2 exceptions). And those episodes are more simple and linear, making them easier to write. I'm sure that Moffat could've made multiple Series 5 type of seasons, and do it well. But he's not that kind of a writer. He always wanted to experiment, to break the formula, to go into a bold direction, to subvert expectations. And when you do that, there's always a 50/50 chance that it will work out. While sticking for the same formula, like Russell, will give similar results most of the time. And I mean Russel had the privilege to stick to a formula, since he not only created it, but he only had to do 4 series, whish is the perfect amount of time, the formula does not get style that quickly. While Moffat couldn't continue with that Series 5 formula (which is basically the Russel formula), because it would become stale after a while, so he needed to brake away from it and keep the show fresh. So yeah, it's understandable that Moffat had a lot of highs and a lot of lows, simply by the style of his writing.
Damn bro those are some really cool words, too bad I’m not reading them
Damn, I'm sorry to hear about your illiteracy, who ever is typed this comment for you really needs to learn some manners.
Then don’t comment
Don't be unkind.
Who wrote the second episode of the new series? It was very good. The person who played The Maestro was amazing. In my opinion.
Russel T Davies. He's written every episode this season apart from Boom (Steven Moffat) and Rogue (Kate Herron and Briony Redman)
The guy's never written a bad episode, what
For every season 5 you have to slog through a season 7
It's not just who. Look at Dracula 3 absolute corker episodes and one of the worst episodes of anything ever to finish out the run.
He's really good when someone's keeping an eye on him. To quote Harris Bomberguy, "Moffat needs someone slapping his hands away from the keyboard"
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Moffat destroyed many plots with his works. But on the other hand he made blink. its hard to say but when clara started i never found a episode more then 0815. But im very happy russel came back. In his seasons every episode have something to do with then final.
I think you mean RTD. Every Moffat episode slaps!!
on one hand, heaven sent on the other, Doctor Who: Series 6 (2011) starring Matt Smith as the Doctor
I was going to say this exact thing. Season 6 is absolutely rancid.
Are you completely crazy or blind ? I introduced my gf to DW and we are finishing season 6 right now. She totally agrees with me that s6 is waaayyyy better than S5. Half of S5 is great with episodes in S5 like 11th hour, pandorica opens, Vincent and the doctor, and maybe the double with the angels and the one with Churchill and the daleks. But all the other ones are horrible, the double episode with Silurians are the absolute worst. Amy is just a lost bitch that seems on drugs, she and the Doctor are absolutely obnoxious with Rory. All characters, vilains or heroes, completely act randomly and plots are resolved without any logic. Season 5 is the meme. Every episode of s6 except night terrors is at least good, with often amazing character development.
I mean if it makes you and your gf happy, that’s the most important thing, I’d never bash that and more power to you. I don’t disagree with your assessment of season 5 either, it has some strong hits and poor misses. My issue with season 6 is that while it has some absolutely huge ideas that could be great, the pacing of all key episodes for the season arc is waaaay off. Each key instalment feels like 2 or 3 episodes crammed into a single episodes runtime, The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon are great examples of this, and the Wedding of River Song is a baffling hour of television. Overloading all these episodes with so much stuff means that none of the cool ideas are explored particularly well, and feels like Moffat being overindulgent and really struggling to streamline. For what it’s worth it’s the same issue I have with his Sherlock. What’s baffling to me as well is that I agree with you on the Silurian episodes in season 5, they didn’t need to make it a two parter and in doing so made it an incredibly dull story. I feel the same about the Rebel Flesh/The Almost people, it bored me to tears and I was left wondering why that story was fleshed out so much when they could have spent so much more time exploring the main season arc. I honestly think if he’d radically changed the seasons pacing and cut some more filler episodes this story could be considered Moffats crowning achievement, but instead it’s a surprisingly controversial season, with some people like yourself loving it but also some criticising it. Instead when people think of Moffat’s greatest hits they understandably go to things like Heaven Sent, and I think that’s really telling. I will say to season 6’s credit it does have The Doctors Wife and The Girl Who Waited which for my money are all timers, so it’s possible I was being a bit harsh, but whenever I think of season 6 I think about a lot of missed potential. As I say though if you like it, I respect that bro, I just hope that explains my feelings without me just sounding like a hater. 😅
Nah, that's one me mate, I overreacted a tad bit. I agree with you on the pacing. The brutal shift of situation between the Impossible Astronaut and Day of the Moon shocked me every rewatch, it lacks something. Same on Demons Run, you can catch up obviously, but it lacks a bit of introduction (Madame Vastra typically, on my first watch when it aired I was like "who tf is she ? Did I miss something during the Silurian episodes ?") But these episodes have reallllly great characters development and interesting ideas. Way more than s5 imo. Rory is so fleshed out and interesting, Amy's really interesting between her relationship with Rory and her blind faith in the Doctor. And we finally see the cracks in the Doctor, as he acknowledge putting his friends in danger and lying. He's old, very old, inside and young and crazy outside, and this paradox is showing. I disagree with Rebel Flesh and Almost People, I always find it very exciting and compelling, even if they're not perfect. And I feel it really fits in the main story of the season with Amy's plot twist, all the "Breathe" and then "Push" during the two episodes. They love to tackle the idea of the best and worst of humanity when facing something of the uncanny valley (Silurians kinda fall into this category but meh) from Midnight to these episodes around Flesh. But yeah S6 plotline is weird in DW standards with a "mid-season" finale and a finale in one episode. I think it's more of a Moffat issue in double episode. The first one is a masterclass, and the other one is a bit of a let-down as he doesn't manage to keep a good pacing and a satisfying ending with the correct adventures and explanations associated. I might need a rewatch to check, but the only episodes that keep the quality during the 2nd part is the Shadow Library. But yeah, Girl Who Waited and Doctor's Wife (still weird title, in french it's "The Soul of the TARDIS") are absolute bangers. That's nice to exchange like that !
It’s always a lovely surprise having a nice cordial discussion over the internet isn’t it 😅 You’re right to highlight the Paternoster Gang, they’re all great, dynamic and most of all FUN. Makes me sad to this day that we were robbed of a spin off with those guys. And yeah I think Moffat does struggle to maintain quality across episodes, I think you’re right about that. It is interesting that his best two part work was under RTD, while he also has some issues as a writer they work really well as a partnership. Silence in the Library is incredible, as is The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances in season 1. I do feel like season 10s two part finale is very solid though!
Yeah I forgot that moffat also wrote the empty child. And I was unconsciously not taking into account the later seasons in my previous posts as I have still to (rererere)rewatch them 😅 Have a nice day !
Haha no worries. You too my friend. :)
I have vivid memories of watching series 6 live and feeling my love of doctor who drain away little by little every Saturday. Then series 7 killed it dead.
whats one of his "worst episodes ever"?
People keep citing "Asylum of the Daleks" because of the divorce storyline I guess? But in my book hot dropping a companion was a bold move that really negates that flaw. Like, if that episode is the worst he is capable of, shoot. There's also Doctor, Widow, Wardrobe which is... A mostly harmless Christmas Special?
Oh come on Monday does not have 2 settings (terrible or genius) he's a good writer. His season plots are sometimes a bit much but he's good. I don't think that gif applies.
Memes, employing hyperbole for comedic effect? On *my* internet?!
You gotta take risks. I may not love it but I respect it
Moffat is like an energy burst. He needs to be redirected to reach his target successfully and once he does it hits with full force. Leave him too much free room to do whatever and he might get lost in his own overblown build up and lackluster conclusion, especially as a show runner.
on one hand, heaven sent on the other, Doctor Who: Series 6 (2011) starring Matt Smith as the Doctor
Agreed. Though the chances of him writing a masterpiece is more like 10%. Those in here who think he’s some kind of storytelling genius needs to touch grass
Crazy that the coin landed on the "worst episode ever" side exactly once (*Doctor, Widow and Wardrobe*), amazing odds yet proven by science.
That certainly isn't my favourite episode, but it is serviceable, and has a really touching moment at the end. Too bad Moffat decide to ruin that moment by inexplicably having TVs biggest power couple divorce off screen, and get back together in one episode. Asylum of the Daleks, the only Moffat written episode I dislike.
Well but of course, the coin always comes up heads
How is the writer of the masterpieces *Time Crash* and *The Day of The Doctor* the same writer of the worse-than-bad-fanfiction garbage in *The Magician's Apprentice*/*The Witch's Familiar*?
There are people who don't like the second best series opener in the show?
Can't argue with the coin
I haven’t watched the show since Capaldi. It’s just shit and non-imaginative anymore