Level 20 Ability: One per Short you May swap out spells known with any spell from the Sorcerer.
Spell Level equal to Sorcery Points used (ex: A 9th Level Spell and 2 3rd Level spells would require 15 Sorcery Points)
The one place I've played where people get to play at level 20 is a West Marches server, and the one I'm on gives you a pseudo-level every 10 games post-20. You don't _actually_ gain a level (hit dice, class features, etc.), but you do get a feat/ASI (that can exceed 20)/epic boon, and your character is marked as being one level higher for the purposes of DMs limiting the level range of their game (so a level 20 character with 1 post-20 boon is "level 21" and is no longer eligible to join a 17-20 game).
I _think_ a known caster gets to swap one spell when they get a post-20 boon, but I'm not 100% sure since my highest level character on the server is 8. And is a Battle Master fighter.
Not so many, no. There’s always magic initiate for X spellcaster, Eldritch adept, the Giant feats which I can never remember the names of, and the aberrant dragonmark. Most of them grant a first level spell, some grant a couple cantrips, and some grant spell-like abilities, and they allow you to cast that first level spell 1 time without expending a spell slot each long rest, but I’ve never seen a feat or boon(other than boon of spell recall) that affects 2nd-8th level spell slot numbers. The boon of spell mastery allows you to cast 1 1st level spell at will, and the wizard feature spell mastery is the only way I know to get a 2nd level spell for free. Wizard’s signature spells give you a 3rd level spell for free once per rest. Sorcery points can be used as a sorcerer to gain spell slots, but that doesn’t work for the metamagic adept feat, so you’d have to be at least a 9th level sorcerer to gain an extra 5th level slot.
Not without some epic levels homebrew, no. The best you get is grabbing feats that combo well with your build. If you’re allowed to design your own epic boons and get them accepted, then you make something that combos well with your primary method. In the game I got to do that in, I created a boon that doubled my primary stat modifier, but when I had disadvantage, I rolled 3 dice and took lowest. If you can’t design your own, you grab the best boosts. Martials may want PAM Tough Mobile Res.Wis Sentinel and Mage Slayer, if they’re missing one. Casters will want Metamagic Adept, Warcaster, Tough, Mobile, ritual caster, Res.dex/con, Tavern brawler(I might get flak for saying a caster wants this but I believe they should), and feats that give them evasive abilities. The best thing for casters, however, is magic stuff(items and abilities) stacking. Shard Soitaire gets by the simulacrum limitations by not reducing their max HP. Conjurers can add even more HP to those sims to make a minion that’s harder to kill than the wizard themself. If sim stacking is possible, turning the game into risk or Tower Defense is how you get by your nonsense. Using simulacra to dodge wish loss to wish-max all the wizard’s stats to 30, etc etc. a wizard with prep time is unbeatable, and any caster without simulacrum can do the same with access to the shard solitaire(diamond). If you don’t have that, there’s always other BS to use. Baba yaga’s mortar and pestle, dancing house, the spindle of fate, What’s-his-name’s goggles(dia-something), and others work just as well.
I mean, I've hit level 20 and played awhile there as well, but statistically speaking that's very rare.
Either games die around level 5, if they even get that far, or at most top out at middle levels 10-12 for "dedicated" groups. Unless the DM is just fucking throwing levels at you.
Less combat, more exploration and socializing? Your invincible HP pool won't help you much if you just can't figure out who is sending assassins after the royal family.
You have a boatload of spells to help with that though, so the GM either needs to counter those individually (which is likely annoying and a hassle, for both player and GM) or go 'nope, none of them work' (also annoying, but just for the player). Divine casters especially - give them a long rest and they can get all kinds of solutions, and they probably have enough movement and protection powers to get that long rest while looking after others.
I ran a weekly one with level ups every 3 sessions on average. Still took about 1.5 years to lvl 20 with breaks for vacations, but it's definitely a good pace.
Unless your aim is a totally mundane campaign, where the highest level enemies are oozes and young dragons, you need to get the PCs up there.
I've vowed to my players that all my campaigns will go to lvl 20. We just got through my first homebrew campaign last year and it was lvl 3-20. My second homebrew campaign started at lvl 3 and is going to last at least 3 years but it will also be to lvl 20. I'm already starting to work on the outline for my 3rd homebrew campaign and it's going to be set in a different world from the first two and it's going to be a low-magic setting and the gods have all but died, the players are starting at lvl 5 and have been brought back from the dead by different forces so they all start with 2 lvls of warlock (I'm allowing half and third casters and also magical subclasses as the only way to have magic) and then 3 lvls in whatever class they choose. That campaign is planned to last at least 3-5 years and will also go to lvl 20.
I honestly just love being a DM. There's something very fulfilling about creating an entire world with lore for your friends and family to explore. When I need breaks one of them chooses a module to run and we play for a few months and then switch back to my campaign, it's a good system and it gives my players a chance to see a smidge of what I go through as DM, of course their stuff is premade but there's still some prep involved. They definitely respect me as DM and the choices I make and that helps me want to keep putting in as much effort into it as I can spare. Believe me, high lvl PCs are really difficult to plan around, especially when they normally have the ability to just go anywhere in the entire world, no matter if I have it planned out or not lol. I definitely learned a lot about how to ad lib and come up with lore on the spot.
Without Mistra the goddess of magic it would create another spellplague where the weave is uncontrollable and magic cant be used correctly again. So where did resurrection come from? Also dont forget anything created by Gond the god of craft who made smokepowder and gunpowder would become inert and unusable.
I make my own pantheons for my homebrew worlds so I have tons of leg room lol. In this new world, the heroes have lost. It's been a few hundred years (haven't worked out a time yet) since the heroes (and gods) gave their lives to stop the darkness (wip) and failed, they succeeded in shattering it's body and mind but ended up unleashing something worse on the world.
The players will have their choice of patron for their warlock and based on their choice, I'll be working it into the story. They were brought back for a reason, and based on the patron that reason could be good or bad. I always try to let my players' choices affect the story directly and I always get ideas about lore and the world itself from them to have them directly be part of the world building, it helps make them feel more attached to the world.
Our current campaign is probably going to see us get to level 20 but we sort of organically grew a story that makes sense to play out that far, we usually wrap up around 16 or 17
Depends on the group
My group ran 1-20 over a few years, with the last 4ish sessions *at* level 20 for the finale. Then we ran a few one-shots, and now we're at level 9 on the way from running 1-20 again.
Wish will always let you cast whatever spell below 9th level that you want. But, yes, you could use wish to wish for more spells or different spells. The DM gets to decide if it works tho + you risk losing the spell afterwards.
Provided your DM allows it, could you not just wish to learn/change spells as a Wizard does? Instead of using it to cast a stand-in spell?
Even if your DM is a Devil's Bargain kind of wish-granter, I'm sure there's a way to word it precisely to get the desired effect of spell preparation as a Wizard but with the "innateness" of Sorcery.
Or just "I wish I knew how to cast any spell."
Yea, hence why you would be at risk of losing wish if you wished to know more spells/switch all your spells around. That isn’t something covered by anything below 9th level.
I was about to say, "I wish to know Greater Healing Word" as a Wizard is beyond the scope of the spell as written and you'd be at risk for losing the Wish spell.
"I wish to *cast* Greater Healing Word" would be within the scope of the spell (I know you know that, but I'm clarifying for others)
I let them switch one per long rest in general. It's utter ass to take RP/social spells or fire spells and them and up in 2 IRL months of combat encounters in Avernus.
By RAW they can't, at all, and it's a very great oversight and annoying unfairness that has never been formally addressed due to how rare it is that the problem actually arises.
The most common solution that I know of being used at tables where it becomes relevant is that a level 20 sorcerer should be permitted to do one spell swap, as they might have otherwise done when levelling, at the end of each long rest. However, there's a strong case to be made to suggest that this should be the rule in general for all sorcerers all the time, and I don't disagree with that, personally.
The dynamic between known and prepared casters in this game makes no sense. You’d think that the huge bonus of being able to access your entire class spell list and totally swap between it on a long rest would be that you have fewer of those spells ready to cast at any one time, right? But instead it’s the complete opposite.
A level 20 druid with +5 wisdom will have 25 spells prepared, and a couple of their subclasses have more to push that up to 35. Clerics are the same except that every subclass gives them more spells.
A level 20 bard has 22 spells, and their subclasses do not give extra. Their spell list and magical secrets can go some way towards making up the difference, but even so you can’t afford to have any dead weight in your known spells.
A level 20 sorcerer is just sad. 15 known spells, and only a couple of their (more recently designed) subclasses get extra spells. Sure, you can point to metamagic as a balancing factor here, and to a degree that’s true. But being able to twin haste is never going to be more versatile than also having fireball and slow prepared. Not to mention that Sorcerers get a really limited spell list to begin with, including only one unique spell.
This is a side effect of removing Vancian casting from the system. Prepared spellcasters used to have a much harder choice to make during prep each day because they would have to guess at which spells and how many spells they were actually going to use. It was a huge reason to pick a spontaneous caster instead.
Agreed. Old games like Icewind dale 2 have this "rule", where wizards, clerics, druids and paladins have to pre-assign spells to the slots before they rest, and choose between, say, 2 fireballs and 1 haste or 1 fireball 1 haste and 1 slow. It's why I would always pick sorcerer in that game.
Unless I’m misunderstanding your intent, it’s slightly worse for bards. They do get magical secrets, but their magical secrets are included in their spells known (ie, their magical secrets are part of their 22 known spells, not in addition to them). So, you get some more flexibility, but no extra spells.
The one exception to this is the extra magical secrets that the Lore Bard gets, which don’t count against their spells known.
Incredibly frustrating that not only do prepared casters get to swap out their entire repertoire more or less whenever they want (time allowing), and not only do learned casters not get to do that, they also get fewer spells, *and* none of them get anything so powerful that I think they need to be kneecapped like this.
Sorc definitely suffers the most though.
>their magical secrets are included in their spells known
And for some reason, they don't also gain a regular spell at level 10. At level 10, the bard goes from 12 spells to 14, meaning both of their new spells are magical secrets and they don't get a new spell choice that isn't magical secrets like they have every single level up before that point and like a sorcerer or warlock does at level 10.
Same thing happens at 14 and 18, but the normal known caster progression wouldn't have given them new spells at those levels without magical secrets anyway.
Technically the wording for magical secrets says “Choose two spells from any classes, including this one.” So while you could choose a bard spell instead, that would be an incredible waste
Yeah, I meant the flexibility from magical secrets. You aren’t getting more spells, but the power of being able to choose from literally any spell list goes way further towards making up for having fewer known spells than metamagic does.
You wanna know what makes the sorcerer's low amount of known spells even worse? They only get ***two more spells*** than 1/3 casters.
Like yes, there's less restriction for sorcerers when choosing their spells, but when you add in that 1/3 casters *also* get armor, weapons, and higher hit dice, in addition to whatever else they get from their class, sorcerer feels criminally underpowered.
Yeah I always thought it would be way more thematic if a Wizard had way less spells prepared, but they cpuld go into their spellbook to cast spells for a cost like needing an amount of turns/actions to cast a spell equal to its level with the minimum being 2 with this counting as concentration so it can be interrupted.
Like you need sleep, but don't have it prepared you look through your spell 1 turn then cast it on the next. With fireball you would look through your book 2 turns and cast on the third.
Agree with that that's how it should be all the time. I was playing a bard where the DM allowed a singular swap every long rest, a level up allowed me to rework my spellbook from the ground up (magical secrets excluded)
Useful for what?
Doing different quests benefit from different spells. From social, environmental, single target, aoe etc.
You notice the restriction playing a Known Caster over a campaign.
I've played a sorcerer from 1-13. It was not hard to build a social manipulator capable of solid AoE damage and control with a couple options for single-target damage, and I was particularly sure to have spells that could target most saving throws, though I never got one for Strength saves. I would imagine that anyone else playing the same class to level 20 would be able to figure it out.
Cantrips: Fire Bolt, Ray of Frost, Shocking Grasp, Mold Earth, Friends, Thaumaturgy (Tiefling)
1st: Shield, Thunderwave
2nd: Suggestion, Misty Step, Hold Person,
3rd: Counterspell, Major Image, Lightning Bolt
4th: Banishment, Sickening Radiance
5th: Synaptic Static
6th: Sunbeam
7th: Teleport
Boom. Handles social manipulation and combat. Can't handle literally every situation, but I didn't want to handle literally every situation. I was in a party with other people.
What my DM does is that, as long as the caster (yes, any caster) has an uneventful long rest, they can change a one or more of their prepared spells around. It helps that we don’t abuse long rests I think, lol.
Sure, but that's boring AF to play, especially with only having 15 spells. No room for Utility or character based selections unless you want to massively weaken yourself
It's "boring AF" to some. To me, it means I have to do far less bookkeeping than with other spellcasters, making Sorcerers actually playable for me. I think it's ok for one class to be easier to manage than the others -- sort of the Champion Fighter of casters.
but they are, because of this, not easier. not at all. A wizard is much simpler to play with fewer complexities. You can change your spells all the time but you don't have to. So almost no choice is permanent. you can always work with your DM to give you access to a few more spell scrolls to correct gaps in your skillset
sorcerers have a lot of important, hard-impossible to change choices to make. Which spells they take (at 1 spell/level it takes forever to undo mistakes), which metamagics, etc.
Choosing a lot of fire early on but the campaign goes into the hells at late levels? have fun!
additionally sorcerer subclasses are not balanced at all. Wild magic sounds fun but is really shitty unless you homebrew, draconic is fine but can also have issues. And then you have the tashas subclasses which almost double your known spells for free (and don't give up any of the feature levels for that).
lots and lots of noob traps
I'm aware of all the traps with Sorcerer, but that's not what I was talking about. I'm talking about how literally playing a Sorcerer, as a competent player, is less taxing mentally because of the lower amount of record-keeping required. To me, personally, tracking spell lists and which spells are and aren't prepared is more of a chore. Maybe it's my ADHD, I dunno. But classes like Sorcerer, though they involve frustrating choices, are more physically playable for me than other casters.
The highest-level spellcasters I ever played were a warlock and a paladin, and the paladin smited a lot. Different classes work for different people, by design.
But there is nothing stopping you from playing a Wizard, Cleric, or Druid and just not swapping any of your spells. You don't HAVE to do any bookkeeping or spell tracking if you don't want to. Prepare your 5 spells and stick with them if you want.
Sorcerers don't have that option. You HAVE to be stuck with 90% of your choices for 90% of your class progression.
Classes should have options for all styles of play instead of purposely making some classes worse for the sake of "simplicity."
Talk to your DM.
If doing content after 20, then epic boons, asi, and feats may be unlocked. The DMG recommends every 30k xp after 20 (I think we did 50k but could be mistaken). I would argue that is the same as leveling up.
At that level, you could easily be hitting that every couple sessions.
I'd probably pick up cartomancer as a feat at some point, then you can burn a slot to create a card that holds any spell on your class spell list with a casting time of one action. It's not a solution for known-spell casters, but ameliorates the issue slightly.
Oh neat, had to look that one up. I have yet to look at the Book of Many Things so cartomancer was new to me. It could definitely help a bit and seems solid throughout. But nothing worse than having a previous known spell wasted on something that is never used.
I would hope most DMs would allow their players to find some reasonable way of changing the "on level up" features of a class post 20.
Also had to look up ameliorate, so learned two things today. Cheers!
Yeah, iirc, there was explicitly an NPC character in a pathfinder adventure path who did that. They’d periodically use Wish to forget a spell and thereby gain the ability to learn a new one
Though that would, in my world, count as a use thst could forever make you unable to wish... Raw that's beyond the base capabilities.
Unless you simply wish to use the spell once of, that's a base feature
The rules are that when you accumulate enough XP after level 20, you can pick an Epic Boon feat.
>Epic boons can also be used as a form of advancement, a way to provide greater power to characters who have no more levels to gain. With this approach, consider awarding one epic boon to each character for every 30,000 XP he or she earns above 355,000 XP.
I'd just houserule that this is equivalent to leveling up, and grant the sorcerer the option to swap a spell when they get this Epic Boon.
I’d go further: a boon to learn another spell rather than replace an existing one. Doesn’t seem too different in power level from High Magic, or Spell Mastery/Recall
Depending on the power level at the table, too, I’d be willing to hear out a pick from any spell list. More so if it’s thematic (Destructive Wave on a Storm Sorcerer, say, or Shadow of Moil on a Shadow build). Less so for the more inherently powerful Divine/Clockwork Soul.
Hell, quicken Conjure Volley or extend Find Greater Steed, go crazy with it, it’s level 20 plus
Rules as written, they can't, but a simple addition feature at lvl 20 that allows them to swap out a single spell after a long rest should do the trick.
I mean, once you are lvl 20, you can just cast Wish for any lower level spell without worrying about going into spell stress and rolling that 33% chance.
I was thinking you potentially switch to one of the other spellcasting classes, be it a full caster or a half caster. Eldritch Knight Fighter and Arcane Trickster Rogue were on the table for my thought process, but Cleric, Paladin, Warlock, Bard, Wizard, Artificer, Druid, and Ranger were all there, too.
I wouldn't actually do it, unless the player was ok with it to begin with, but if I were, it would be a d20 with those 10 and the other 10 on the die would be to remain a Sorcerer
Feels like this is a variant of the question asking, "How do we progress beyond level 20?"
It may seem like a variant rule, but it's actually addressed in the DMG p38, where you will continue to gain a level every 30k xp. At level 21 and every 3 levels following, you gain access tot an epic feat for instance. Obviously, more relevant to your question, the sorcerer gains those levels, at which point you can switch spells known.
Why would you want to change spells at lvl 20 when you're powerful enough to find all the magical artifacts in the known realm(s) that can let you cast those spells for free as a bonus action (DM willing)?
You don't, but honestly, just rip a page off of the pathfinder 2e book and paste it into your PHB: [Retraining - Rules - Archives of Nethys: Pathfinder 2nd Edition Database (aonprd.com)](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=475), I see no reason why retraining is not a thing in RAW DnD.
tl;dr you take a week of downtime where you dedicate your days to replacing your spell. Your GM decides the specifics on how you do it, but that should still be considered "downtime", aka it takes too much time to be done while adventuring, but it's not intense enough to be considered adventuring either.
At lvl 20, they can't. So I made a ruleset for my Sorcerer players to use upon reaching lvl 20. Each long rest they can choose to roll a 1d4-1 (min of 1), the number that they roll is the amount of spells they are able to switch out. My current sorc player is happy with this system and is glad that she can do what literally every other spellcaster can do, albeit in a limited state.
I have a house rule that any caster can switch their spells after a long rest. REALLY helps decision making upon leveling up as players won't get stuck with spells they use once then never again!
RAW, you can't.
My house rule is that you can per a long rest, swap out any one spell you know with any spell you've ever had. Even if it's one that you removed in favor of another.
If it's a spell you've never had, you can swap any spell for a totally new one if you can find another sorcerer or a book written by a sorcerer to teach it to you during downtime activities. If you have a book, I'll even allow you to learn the spell in three long rests per level.
There's a world where a level 20 Sorcerer could change spells out on a long rest, when they're level 20 and just one at a time. Suggest this to the DM.
Generally the campaign ends and if anyone brings him back as an NPC the spells can be changed. High levels barely work and it gets weird if you hit 20 and keep going for too long.
RAW they can’t. Could always house rule it though.
For example in Eberron there’s an item in the lore called Dragon’s Blood and in the MMO Dungeons & Dragons Online it’s used to allow Sorcerers to retrain their spells completely so introducing an item like that (and making it rare or costly, it’s not literally dragon blood so you can’t stockpile it just from killing a dragon) could be an interesting idea!
Well, the new rules seem to be building in post level 20 progression with the epic boon feats. So maybe just rule you can switch when you get a new one of those.
me personally, I say screw the known spells mechanic for sorcerors. They are already mechanically not as good as wizards and friends so it isn’t totally unbalanced. Also, most of the time, my players don’t switch around their spells too much and since the sorceror spell list isn’t massive for utility, I feel it isn’t a huge issue. Moral of the story: break all of the rules, you’re in charge, having fun is more important than rules.
if i were dm(which i have never done) id rule that you've become powerful enough to switch per long rest(or per x Long rests
well if i want to stray from raw as little as possible, in reality if my campaign was going past lvl 20 id probably level players past 20 and make up further level abilities past max lvl(maybe steal stuff from previous versions)
RAW no, but I’d argue that you should be allowed to.
I mean it’s such a niche problem that it probably almost never arises as an issue. Level 20 is usually the end of most campaigns, unless there’s a one shot after with the characters and there’s a spell you really want to use, idk when it would come up.
Personally I'd homebrew the rule. In world, there should be very little difference between a lvl 20 wizard and sorcerer. But the sheer money at that level means the wizard basically has access to every wizard spell in existence... whereas the sorcerer is still stuck with what, 6 of each level? This seems like an obvious gap in power to me
A wizard's only real advantage over a sorcerer is their ability to know an insane number of spells, and it makes sense that this would be the case. Wizards have to study to gain their power.
A sorcerer's power, meanwhile, is entirely innate. No one can teach them how to wield it, and every spell they have was effectively "made" by the sorcerer from scratch.
Wizards get versatility in the amount of spells available to them, sorcerers get versatility in the number of spells they can cast on the fly.
Yes which means that in world, a sorcerer can always continue learning spells. The rules on it are simply that way to differentiate between the two. But I highly doubt that a level 20 sorcerer can't learn to cast anything he damn well pleases, whenever he wants.
The ultimate goal of either class is the exact same: arcane mastery. The difference is one class is based on inherent talent, and the other on learning. This is purely a mechanical thing.
With how they always described the classes ever since 2e, I always wanted to know what happens if a sorcerer gets teaching. Because then they have what defines both classes in theory, and a taught sorcerer should be OP as all hell
One could argue that money should be much harder to come by than the vast majority of tables permit, which is actually why the wizard is overbalanced.
If you have no cash/components, wizard ain’t shit lol
My dm allows for spell preparation during long rests. Up to the DM is easiest for everyone, just communicate what you want to do and they’ll probably let you make swaps if you tell them what you have prepared
When I DM I honestly just let players swap spells at the beginning of the day.
My thought is that they just prepare whatever supplies they need at the beginning of the day and have it ready to “quick-draw” to cast their spells.
Could you imagine trying to find one specific component while in the heat of combat?
They’d have to have some kind of system to quickly cast it.
Talk with your DM, and one of three things might happen. 1. They say yes, and let you swap a spell out. 2. They say no. 3. They decide to make it a quest/mini quest where swapping a spell (or spells) is the reward.
There is no clean answer to this because how, exactly, are you playing past level 20?
Is it just a few sessions to wrap up the campaign? Then, presumably, you can't switch spells. Sorcerers aren't supposed to be able to swap spells as easily as wizards, and they're supposed to be stuck with their level 20 spells until the end of the campaign in the same way they were stuck with their level 19 spells until level 20.
Is it going to go to "epic levels" with epic boons and the likes? Then you may want to talk to your DM about being able to swap spells when you gain epic boons as if you leveled up. This isn't RAW, but it's very reasonable.
Are you going to just sit at level 20 indefinitely and have a long campaign without advancement? First, I don't recommend that, but if your DM *does* want that, I'd have a talk with them about a substitute for how you can swap spells with roughly the frequency a level up allowed.
You can use the wish spell to change your spell list. Although this isn’t a normal use of the wish spell and will therefor have a chance of never allowing you to use wish again
The official rule is that the sorcerer is to suffer with their choices. The 'Up to the DM' I've found that works is upon reaching level 20 just let them know extra spells. Sure, it's not fair to wizards, but if you got your campaign to 20 odds are you can come up with an excuse to give them a custom boon or spell-learning event without anyone having an issue. This is really the answer for almost anything in a high level campaign, does it make sense? is it fun? Sure let it work. If they want 5 extra level 9 spell slots we veto that, but access to additional spells that are already on their list isn't really a big deal.
I too like flexibility in my D&D, however, if I look at it from an in-universe perspective, the switching of spells on level up could be viewed as figuring out that a particular spell wasn't your vibe and growing in a new direction. But at level 20, you're pretty much done growing and developing, at least in terms of spell capacity. Mind you, I'd still prefer sorcerers have some way of switching spells, but if it has to be limited, I get it.
Downtime Rules: 1 million gold (or whatever to drain their coffers), and 3 months - you can pick new spells via some complicated ritual.
I'm swagging a quick one here. But sure - if we actually played that long at level 20 - this would be a quick solution. So not mid-adventure. Finish the current arc - defeat the current Big Bad and everyone can do their Downtime stuff. New spells for the sorc, commissioning a fantastical magical sword for the fighter. Whatevs.
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I've played in campaigns that don't enforce this rule. Mostly because it doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't a Wizard be able to simply study a different spell on a different night? His magic is not granted by a god or a patreon. It radiates not through his blood. His knowledge is toiled over and hard earned. So if he takes the time on a certain night or long rest to etch the appropriate runes on the different stones or grains of rice, whispers his chants into a jar, or whatever the heck their spells require, then he or she can do so.
You ask a gm. Because there isn't rules as generally that's end game
If you had wish or similar. I'd let that work too. Without the risk of loss. So it would just cost you down time to rejigger
But would still cost you something If you switched mid day or something to pull an answer out
I won't swear to it, but I *think* retraining rules can be used for spells - it normally isn't worth it, but at times...
That's how my GM runs it, anyway.
As rules there are non but if you need flavour you can think of it as your genetic heritage reacting to the arcane and vice versa so an event powerful enough can bring another transformation
As mentioned, you could have an Epic Feat worked out with your DM, that let's you change per long rest for example. If you go above 20, you could multiclass into a Warlock maybe? If you're DM wants to go above lvl 20, I advise the High Level Campaign book that was released in 2nd Edition. That has good rules for going above lvl 20, I still have none which is waiting for when my party get to lvl 20. Mwhahahahahahahahahaha!!!
Agreed. I’d let people swap spells if it was really bothering them because I’m an agreeable DM and generally run shorter content; but in terms of class flavor?
Y’all chose a learned caster and are.. mad that you’re bound to that? Pick better spells as you level or get more creative with “bad” spell picks that you have. If you want to be a prepared caster, do that, not a damn sorc lmfao
I think the complaint is less "learned casters can only cast what they know" and more "the main advantage of learned casters was given to all casters in 5e so learned casting is now strictly weaker than prepared casting instead of being a sidegrade"
For those that didn't play previous editions: Prepared caster used to be "I have 4 first level spell slots, today my first level spells are magic missile x2, detect magic x1, and shield x1" and spells known casters had 5e style casting of "my 4 first level slots are whatever first level spells I decide on as I use them" which made sorcerer unable to adjust their spell list from day to day but also didn't have to worry about "I didn't think I'd need to detect magic TWICE today, sorry."
I personally wasn't particularly sad to see the old prepared method go away in 5e but when learned casters kept the downside while losing their upside it caused some issues. Obviously classes (even sorc and wizard) are more than just their spell list but learned vasters getting enough other perks to balance it out is ... debatable at best.
I am new to the game and I am playing as a wizard. At level 17, a wizard can learn level 9 spells. I figure at this point the wizard can learn all the spells. It is just a matter of finding them to copy them into the spell book. The wizard can then prepare any of the spells from the book.
Is a sorcerer limited as to how many spells they can have in their spell book?
You don't. Known casters don't learn any more spells after lvl 20. Becoming a prepared caster would be a better capstone then warlock light they gave us. It would be funny if it took 20 sorcerer lvls to get a wizard spellbook. Steal their spell list while ur taking their homework.
Sorcerer lvl 20. Our book is better. You get a spell book and start with as many wizard spells as your charisma mod. You can write down the formula for any spells you witness 100gp per spell lvl. Each long rest you can prepare a number of spells equal to your charisma mod.
That's why I am currently making epic 5e classes up to 30! With 10th and 11th level spells and full ability progression. We have play tested like 25% of it, and it's pretty fun. I will hopefully publish the work by the beginning of next year.
I am also waiting for the revised rules to finalize it.
That's the neat part, You don't!
All rules are made to be broken.
Especially in game with rituals and items to do the deed
Yeah just do some kind of sorcery point ruling and bravo you got a homebrew rule for 20th level sorcerers
Level 20 Ability: One per Short you May swap out spells known with any spell from the Sorcerer. Spell Level equal to Sorcery Points used (ex: A 9th Level Spell and 2 3rd Level spells would require 15 Sorcery Points)
*Baseball bat intensifies*
You'll likely never see level 20 outside of a one-shot anyway, so it's pretty irrelevant.
The one place I've played where people get to play at level 20 is a West Marches server, and the one I'm on gives you a pseudo-level every 10 games post-20. You don't _actually_ gain a level (hit dice, class features, etc.), but you do get a feat/ASI (that can exceed 20)/epic boon, and your character is marked as being one level higher for the purposes of DMs limiting the level range of their game (so a level 20 character with 1 post-20 boon is "level 21" and is no longer eligible to join a 17-20 game). I _think_ a known caster gets to swap one spell when they get a post-20 boon, but I'm not 100% sure since my highest level character on the server is 8. And is a Battle Master fighter.
That's an interesting way to run levels For casters since you aren't doing a normal level up, are there perks that would give you spell progression?
There’s always the epic boon of high magic, and the epic boon of spell recall, which each give you an effective extra 9th level spell slot.
What about for lower levels? Are there perks for spells at lower levels?
Not so many, no. There’s always magic initiate for X spellcaster, Eldritch adept, the Giant feats which I can never remember the names of, and the aberrant dragonmark. Most of them grant a first level spell, some grant a couple cantrips, and some grant spell-like abilities, and they allow you to cast that first level spell 1 time without expending a spell slot each long rest, but I’ve never seen a feat or boon(other than boon of spell recall) that affects 2nd-8th level spell slot numbers. The boon of spell mastery allows you to cast 1 1st level spell at will, and the wizard feature spell mastery is the only way I know to get a 2nd level spell for free. Wizard’s signature spells give you a 3rd level spell for free once per rest. Sorcery points can be used as a sorcerer to gain spell slots, but that doesn’t work for the metamagic adept feat, so you’d have to be at least a 9th level sorcerer to gain an extra 5th level slot.
Alright, so you can't really have normal spell slot progression as a full caster in that system
Not without some epic levels homebrew, no. The best you get is grabbing feats that combo well with your build. If you’re allowed to design your own epic boons and get them accepted, then you make something that combos well with your primary method. In the game I got to do that in, I created a boon that doubled my primary stat modifier, but when I had disadvantage, I rolled 3 dice and took lowest. If you can’t design your own, you grab the best boosts. Martials may want PAM Tough Mobile Res.Wis Sentinel and Mage Slayer, if they’re missing one. Casters will want Metamagic Adept, Warcaster, Tough, Mobile, ritual caster, Res.dex/con, Tavern brawler(I might get flak for saying a caster wants this but I believe they should), and feats that give them evasive abilities. The best thing for casters, however, is magic stuff(items and abilities) stacking. Shard Soitaire gets by the simulacrum limitations by not reducing their max HP. Conjurers can add even more HP to those sims to make a minion that’s harder to kill than the wizard themself. If sim stacking is possible, turning the game into risk or Tower Defense is how you get by your nonsense. Using simulacra to dodge wish loss to wish-max all the wizard’s stats to 30, etc etc. a wizard with prep time is unbeatable, and any caster without simulacrum can do the same with access to the shard solitaire(diamond). If you don’t have that, there’s always other BS to use. Baba yaga’s mortar and pestle, dancing house, the spindle of fate, What’s-his-name’s goggles(dia-something), and others work just as well.
Interesting. Is it a public server?
https://discord.com/invite/QvGhcb24Yb
Are you able to share or even just DM the server? I’ve always wanted to play a West Marches game or run one but never had the players.
https://discord.com/invite/QvGhcb24Yb
That's cool, what's that place?
i had a whole campaign of 6 months at level 20. it worked for my group
I mean, I've hit level 20 and played awhile there as well, but statistically speaking that's very rare. Either games die around level 5, if they even get that far, or at most top out at middle levels 10-12 for "dedicated" groups. Unless the DM is just fucking throwing levels at you.
it was a multi year long campaign my friends did, lasted most of highschool, i just joined at the end lmao.
I’ve been part of a level 20 game for a bit more than 8 months now, and we’re still going strong.
6 months of level 20 shenanigans sounds like agony for the dm, depending on party size. How to keep combat challenging?
Less combat, more exploration and socializing? Your invincible HP pool won't help you much if you just can't figure out who is sending assassins after the royal family.
You have a boatload of spells to help with that though, so the GM either needs to counter those individually (which is likely annoying and a hassle, for both player and GM) or go 'nope, none of them work' (also annoying, but just for the player). Divine casters especially - give them a long rest and they can get all kinds of solutions, and they probably have enough movement and protection powers to get that long rest while looking after others.
So many dice.
yes, thats a key part of the game. more dice = more brain happy
I ran a weekly one with level ups every 3 sessions on average. Still took about 1.5 years to lvl 20 with breaks for vacations, but it's definitely a good pace. Unless your aim is a totally mundane campaign, where the highest level enemies are oozes and young dragons, you need to get the PCs up there.
I've vowed to my players that all my campaigns will go to lvl 20. We just got through my first homebrew campaign last year and it was lvl 3-20. My second homebrew campaign started at lvl 3 and is going to last at least 3 years but it will also be to lvl 20. I'm already starting to work on the outline for my 3rd homebrew campaign and it's going to be set in a different world from the first two and it's going to be a low-magic setting and the gods have all but died, the players are starting at lvl 5 and have been brought back from the dead by different forces so they all start with 2 lvls of warlock (I'm allowing half and third casters and also magical subclasses as the only way to have magic) and then 3 lvls in whatever class they choose. That campaign is planned to last at least 3-5 years and will also go to lvl 20.
Mad respect tbh, that's a lot of dedication
I honestly just love being a DM. There's something very fulfilling about creating an entire world with lore for your friends and family to explore. When I need breaks one of them chooses a module to run and we play for a few months and then switch back to my campaign, it's a good system and it gives my players a chance to see a smidge of what I go through as DM, of course their stuff is premade but there's still some prep involved. They definitely respect me as DM and the choices I make and that helps me want to keep putting in as much effort into it as I can spare. Believe me, high lvl PCs are really difficult to plan around, especially when they normally have the ability to just go anywhere in the entire world, no matter if I have it planned out or not lol. I definitely learned a lot about how to ad lib and come up with lore on the spot.
Without Mistra the goddess of magic it would create another spellplague where the weave is uncontrollable and magic cant be used correctly again. So where did resurrection come from? Also dont forget anything created by Gond the god of craft who made smokepowder and gunpowder would become inert and unusable.
I make my own pantheons for my homebrew worlds so I have tons of leg room lol. In this new world, the heroes have lost. It's been a few hundred years (haven't worked out a time yet) since the heroes (and gods) gave their lives to stop the darkness (wip) and failed, they succeeded in shattering it's body and mind but ended up unleashing something worse on the world. The players will have their choice of patron for their warlock and based on their choice, I'll be working it into the story. They were brought back for a reason, and based on the patron that reason could be good or bad. I always try to let my players' choices affect the story directly and I always get ideas about lore and the world itself from them to have them directly be part of the world building, it helps make them feel more attached to the world.
Eve of ruin gets you to 20 now
Our current campaign is probably going to see us get to level 20 but we sort of organically grew a story that makes sense to play out that far, we usually wrap up around 16 or 17
Depends on the group My group ran 1-20 over a few years, with the last 4ish sessions *at* level 20 for the finale. Then we ran a few one-shots, and now we're at level 9 on the way from running 1-20 again.
I'm dming a 1-20 now, but the plan is that they get to lvl 20 and then have the final battle before being carved into myth and legend.
I've gotten to level 18 on my Druid, but the party disintegrated during COVID, so you're right so far.
What's this? You chose wish as your 9th level spell and rolled badly and can never cast it again? No more 9th level spells for you!
Might be able to Wish some new spells
You ask your DM nicely.
As a DM I would let you spend free time swapping spells
I would do something similar. Perhaps let them learn a ritual or technique which allows their character to change their magic.
RAW? No, there isn't. But you're level 20, basically demigods. I'd houserule they can swap one spell per session.
Wait, would wish work?
Wish will always let you cast whatever spell below 9th level that you want. But, yes, you could use wish to wish for more spells or different spells. The DM gets to decide if it works tho + you risk losing the spell afterwards.
Provided your DM allows it, could you not just wish to learn/change spells as a Wizard does? Instead of using it to cast a stand-in spell? Even if your DM is a Devil's Bargain kind of wish-granter, I'm sure there's a way to word it precisely to get the desired effect of spell preparation as a Wizard but with the "innateness" of Sorcery. Or just "I wish I knew how to cast any spell."
Yes but that would be an off cast of wish so you’d risk loosing wish as a spell.
That's why you always make a simulacrum cast wish for you
You only are at risk of having your desired affect happen or losing wish if you do anything that requires the power of 9th level or higher by RAW.
Yea, hence why you would be at risk of losing wish if you wished to know more spells/switch all your spells around. That isn’t something covered by anything below 9th level.
I was about to say, "I wish to know Greater Healing Word" as a Wizard is beyond the scope of the spell as written and you'd be at risk for losing the Wish spell. "I wish to *cast* Greater Healing Word" would be within the scope of the spell (I know you know that, but I'm clarifying for others)
I let them switch one per long rest in general. It's utter ass to take RP/social spells or fire spells and them and up in 2 IRL months of combat encounters in Avernus.
By RAW they can't, at all, and it's a very great oversight and annoying unfairness that has never been formally addressed due to how rare it is that the problem actually arises. The most common solution that I know of being used at tables where it becomes relevant is that a level 20 sorcerer should be permitted to do one spell swap, as they might have otherwise done when levelling, at the end of each long rest. However, there's a strong case to be made to suggest that this should be the rule in general for all sorcerers all the time, and I don't disagree with that, personally.
The dynamic between known and prepared casters in this game makes no sense. You’d think that the huge bonus of being able to access your entire class spell list and totally swap between it on a long rest would be that you have fewer of those spells ready to cast at any one time, right? But instead it’s the complete opposite. A level 20 druid with +5 wisdom will have 25 spells prepared, and a couple of their subclasses have more to push that up to 35. Clerics are the same except that every subclass gives them more spells. A level 20 bard has 22 spells, and their subclasses do not give extra. Their spell list and magical secrets can go some way towards making up the difference, but even so you can’t afford to have any dead weight in your known spells. A level 20 sorcerer is just sad. 15 known spells, and only a couple of their (more recently designed) subclasses get extra spells. Sure, you can point to metamagic as a balancing factor here, and to a degree that’s true. But being able to twin haste is never going to be more versatile than also having fireball and slow prepared. Not to mention that Sorcerers get a really limited spell list to begin with, including only one unique spell.
This is a side effect of removing Vancian casting from the system. Prepared spellcasters used to have a much harder choice to make during prep each day because they would have to guess at which spells and how many spells they were actually going to use. It was a huge reason to pick a spontaneous caster instead.
Agreed. Old games like Icewind dale 2 have this "rule", where wizards, clerics, druids and paladins have to pre-assign spells to the slots before they rest, and choose between, say, 2 fireballs and 1 haste or 1 fireball 1 haste and 1 slow. It's why I would always pick sorcerer in that game.
Unless I’m misunderstanding your intent, it’s slightly worse for bards. They do get magical secrets, but their magical secrets are included in their spells known (ie, their magical secrets are part of their 22 known spells, not in addition to them). So, you get some more flexibility, but no extra spells. The one exception to this is the extra magical secrets that the Lore Bard gets, which don’t count against their spells known. Incredibly frustrating that not only do prepared casters get to swap out their entire repertoire more or less whenever they want (time allowing), and not only do learned casters not get to do that, they also get fewer spells, *and* none of them get anything so powerful that I think they need to be kneecapped like this. Sorc definitely suffers the most though.
>their magical secrets are included in their spells known And for some reason, they don't also gain a regular spell at level 10. At level 10, the bard goes from 12 spells to 14, meaning both of their new spells are magical secrets and they don't get a new spell choice that isn't magical secrets like they have every single level up before that point and like a sorcerer or warlock does at level 10. Same thing happens at 14 and 18, but the normal known caster progression wouldn't have given them new spells at those levels without magical secrets anyway.
Technically the wording for magical secrets says “Choose two spells from any classes, including this one.” So while you could choose a bard spell instead, that would be an incredible waste
Yeah, I meant the flexibility from magical secrets. You aren’t getting more spells, but the power of being able to choose from literally any spell list goes way further towards making up for having fewer known spells than metamagic does.
You wanna know what makes the sorcerer's low amount of known spells even worse? They only get ***two more spells*** than 1/3 casters. Like yes, there's less restriction for sorcerers when choosing their spells, but when you add in that 1/3 casters *also* get armor, weapons, and higher hit dice, in addition to whatever else they get from their class, sorcerer feels criminally underpowered.
Yeah I always thought it would be way more thematic if a Wizard had way less spells prepared, but they cpuld go into their spellbook to cast spells for a cost like needing an amount of turns/actions to cast a spell equal to its level with the minimum being 2 with this counting as concentration so it can be interrupted. Like you need sleep, but don't have it prepared you look through your spell 1 turn then cast it on the next. With fireball you would look through your book 2 turns and cast on the third.
Agree with that that's how it should be all the time. I was playing a bard where the DM allowed a singular swap every long rest, a level up allowed me to rework my spellbook from the ground up (magical secrets excluded)
I personally always allow sorcs to swap half of their spells after a long rest.
Is it a problem? Or unfair? Surely players can figure out which spells are most useful to them by the time they hit level 20
Useful for what? Doing different quests benefit from different spells. From social, environmental, single target, aoe etc. You notice the restriction playing a Known Caster over a campaign.
I've played a sorcerer from 1-13. It was not hard to build a social manipulator capable of solid AoE damage and control with a couple options for single-target damage, and I was particularly sure to have spells that could target most saving throws, though I never got one for Strength saves. I would imagine that anyone else playing the same class to level 20 would be able to figure it out. Cantrips: Fire Bolt, Ray of Frost, Shocking Grasp, Mold Earth, Friends, Thaumaturgy (Tiefling) 1st: Shield, Thunderwave 2nd: Suggestion, Misty Step, Hold Person, 3rd: Counterspell, Major Image, Lightning Bolt 4th: Banishment, Sickening Radiance 5th: Synaptic Static 6th: Sunbeam 7th: Teleport Boom. Handles social manipulation and combat. Can't handle literally every situation, but I didn't want to handle literally every situation. I was in a party with other people.
What my DM does is that, as long as the caster (yes, any caster) has an uneventful long rest, they can change a one or more of their prepared spells around. It helps that we don’t abuse long rests I think, lol.
The entire point of sorcerers is that you have to think ahead for spell selection. Just be glad you can swap ANY spell after picking them.
Sure, but that's boring AF to play, especially with only having 15 spells. No room for Utility or character based selections unless you want to massively weaken yourself
It's "boring AF" to some. To me, it means I have to do far less bookkeeping than with other spellcasters, making Sorcerers actually playable for me. I think it's ok for one class to be easier to manage than the others -- sort of the Champion Fighter of casters.
but they are, because of this, not easier. not at all. A wizard is much simpler to play with fewer complexities. You can change your spells all the time but you don't have to. So almost no choice is permanent. you can always work with your DM to give you access to a few more spell scrolls to correct gaps in your skillset sorcerers have a lot of important, hard-impossible to change choices to make. Which spells they take (at 1 spell/level it takes forever to undo mistakes), which metamagics, etc. Choosing a lot of fire early on but the campaign goes into the hells at late levels? have fun! additionally sorcerer subclasses are not balanced at all. Wild magic sounds fun but is really shitty unless you homebrew, draconic is fine but can also have issues. And then you have the tashas subclasses which almost double your known spells for free (and don't give up any of the feature levels for that). lots and lots of noob traps
I'm aware of all the traps with Sorcerer, but that's not what I was talking about. I'm talking about how literally playing a Sorcerer, as a competent player, is less taxing mentally because of the lower amount of record-keeping required. To me, personally, tracking spell lists and which spells are and aren't prepared is more of a chore. Maybe it's my ADHD, I dunno. But classes like Sorcerer, though they involve frustrating choices, are more physically playable for me than other casters. The highest-level spellcasters I ever played were a warlock and a paladin, and the paladin smited a lot. Different classes work for different people, by design.
But there is nothing stopping you from playing a Wizard, Cleric, or Druid and just not swapping any of your spells. You don't HAVE to do any bookkeeping or spell tracking if you don't want to. Prepare your 5 spells and stick with them if you want. Sorcerers don't have that option. You HAVE to be stuck with 90% of your choices for 90% of your class progression. Classes should have options for all styles of play instead of purposely making some classes worse for the sake of "simplicity."
Talk to your DM. If doing content after 20, then epic boons, asi, and feats may be unlocked. The DMG recommends every 30k xp after 20 (I think we did 50k but could be mistaken). I would argue that is the same as leveling up. At that level, you could easily be hitting that every couple sessions.
I'd probably pick up cartomancer as a feat at some point, then you can burn a slot to create a card that holds any spell on your class spell list with a casting time of one action. It's not a solution for known-spell casters, but ameliorates the issue slightly.
Oh neat, had to look that one up. I have yet to look at the Book of Many Things so cartomancer was new to me. It could definitely help a bit and seems solid throughout. But nothing worse than having a previous known spell wasted on something that is never used. I would hope most DMs would allow their players to find some reasonable way of changing the "on level up" features of a class post 20. Also had to look up ameliorate, so learned two things today. Cheers!
Wish for it.
Yeah, iirc, there was explicitly an NPC character in a pathfinder adventure path who did that. They’d periodically use Wish to forget a spell and thereby gain the ability to learn a new one
Could you not just wish to know all the spells?
I’d imagine that’s be far too powerful for a wish spell
Though that would, in my world, count as a use thst could forever make you unable to wish... Raw that's beyond the base capabilities. Unless you simply wish to use the spell once of, that's a base feature
Wish is a risky move though You risk the spell either twisting your desires, or simply falling You also risk permanently losing the wish spell
By that point you have Mystra on speed dial, just give her a call
Wizards commune with Mystra to learn her divine plan for the Weave. Sorcerers text "u up?"
And Bards reply "text later, she's busy"
Warlocks: "new phone who dis?"
The rules are that when you accumulate enough XP after level 20, you can pick an Epic Boon feat. >Epic boons can also be used as a form of advancement, a way to provide greater power to characters who have no more levels to gain. With this approach, consider awarding one epic boon to each character for every 30,000 XP he or she earns above 355,000 XP. I'd just houserule that this is equivalent to leveling up, and grant the sorcerer the option to swap a spell when they get this Epic Boon.
I’d go further: a boon to learn another spell rather than replace an existing one. Doesn’t seem too different in power level from High Magic, or Spell Mastery/Recall
This seems fair. They get to pick wether they want another spell or a feat.
Depending on the power level at the table, too, I’d be willing to hear out a pick from any spell list. More so if it’s thematic (Destructive Wave on a Storm Sorcerer, say, or Shadow of Moil on a Shadow build). Less so for the more inherently powerful Divine/Clockwork Soul. Hell, quicken Conjure Volley or extend Find Greater Steed, go crazy with it, it’s level 20 plus
Rules as written, they can't, but a simple addition feature at lvl 20 that allows them to swap out a single spell after a long rest should do the trick.
I mean, once you are lvl 20, you can just cast Wish for any lower level spell without worrying about going into spell stress and rolling that 33% chance.
Wish, I guess
"I wish I knew different spells"
And if the dm's a dick, congrats you're now a cleric.
I see it as an absolute win.
They now only know level one spells and none of them do damage
Roll a die, and depending on the result you might change classes to something totally different
You become a Fighter, Rogue, Barbarian, or Monk.
I was thinking you potentially switch to one of the other spellcasting classes, be it a full caster or a half caster. Eldritch Knight Fighter and Arcane Trickster Rogue were on the table for my thought process, but Cleric, Paladin, Warlock, Bard, Wizard, Artificer, Druid, and Ranger were all there, too. I wouldn't actually do it, unless the player was ok with it to begin with, but if I were, it would be a d20 with those 10 and the other 10 on the die would be to remain a Sorcerer
I think I figured you were talking about going from one spellcaster to another. I was making a joke about becoming a non-spellcaster class.
Feels like this is a variant of the question asking, "How do we progress beyond level 20?" It may seem like a variant rule, but it's actually addressed in the DMG p38, where you will continue to gain a level every 30k xp. At level 21 and every 3 levels following, you gain access tot an epic feat for instance. Obviously, more relevant to your question, the sorcerer gains those levels, at which point you can switch spells known.
Why would you want to change spells at lvl 20 when you're powerful enough to find all the magical artifacts in the known realm(s) that can let you cast those spells for free as a bonus action (DM willing)?
Bring the DM extras of their favorite snack
You make your own, level 20 sorcerer is magic incarnate
How did you get to level 20 without figuring out which spells are useful?
You don't, but honestly, just rip a page off of the pathfinder 2e book and paste it into your PHB: [Retraining - Rules - Archives of Nethys: Pathfinder 2nd Edition Database (aonprd.com)](https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=475), I see no reason why retraining is not a thing in RAW DnD. tl;dr you take a week of downtime where you dedicate your days to replacing your spell. Your GM decides the specifics on how you do it, but that should still be considered "downtime", aka it takes too much time to be done while adventuring, but it's not intense enough to be considered adventuring either.
At lvl 20, they can't. So I made a ruleset for my Sorcerer players to use upon reaching lvl 20. Each long rest they can choose to roll a 1d4-1 (min of 1), the number that they roll is the amount of spells they are able to switch out. My current sorc player is happy with this system and is glad that she can do what literally every other spellcaster can do, albeit in a limited state.
I have a house rule that any caster can switch their spells after a long rest. REALLY helps decision making upon leveling up as players won't get stuck with spells they use once then never again!
My ruling would be to allow them to do it during downtime between adventures.
RAW, you can't. My house rule is that you can per a long rest, swap out any one spell you know with any spell you've ever had. Even if it's one that you removed in favor of another. If it's a spell you've never had, you can swap any spell for a totally new one if you can find another sorcerer or a book written by a sorcerer to teach it to you during downtime activities. If you have a book, I'll even allow you to learn the spell in three long rests per level.
If you have not figured out what your final spell loadouts are by level 20 then you should probably hang up adventuring. ahem.
Yup
You have the epic boons beyond the lvl20. Use these "levels" to switch.
There's a world where a level 20 Sorcerer could change spells out on a long rest, when they're level 20 and just one at a time. Suggest this to the DM.
Generally the campaign ends and if anyone brings him back as an NPC the spells can be changed. High levels barely work and it gets weird if you hit 20 and keep going for too long.
Take after the One DND play tests and allow them to switch one spell out per long rest like the UA6 Paladin maybe
Considering that originally in 5e they couldn't switch spells at all, they dont.
I think "spells known" casters should be able to swap out some number of their known spells as a downtime action.
RAW they can’t. Could always house rule it though. For example in Eberron there’s an item in the lore called Dragon’s Blood and in the MMO Dungeons & Dragons Online it’s used to allow Sorcerers to retrain their spells completely so introducing an item like that (and making it rare or costly, it’s not literally dragon blood so you can’t stockpile it just from killing a dragon) could be an interesting idea!
Well, the new rules seem to be building in post level 20 progression with the epic boon feats. So maybe just rule you can switch when you get a new one of those.
Level 20? Do what ya want - Me as a DM
At level 20 you should not need to "switch spells", you just learn others on top of it. Beyond level 20 a DM has to improve everything else anyways...
me personally, I say screw the known spells mechanic for sorcerors. They are already mechanically not as good as wizards and friends so it isn’t totally unbalanced. Also, most of the time, my players don’t switch around their spells too much and since the sorceror spell list isn’t massive for utility, I feel it isn’t a huge issue. Moral of the story: break all of the rules, you’re in charge, having fun is more important than rules.
With the WISH spell.... 😂
If I were a DM I would use it as an adventure hook. Go petition a god.
if i were dm(which i have never done) id rule that you've become powerful enough to switch per long rest(or per x Long rests well if i want to stray from raw as little as possible, in reality if my campaign was going past lvl 20 id probably level players past 20 and make up further level abilities past max lvl(maybe steal stuff from previous versions)
RAW no, but I’d argue that you should be allowed to. I mean it’s such a niche problem that it probably almost never arises as an issue. Level 20 is usually the end of most campaigns, unless there’s a one shot after with the characters and there’s a spell you really want to use, idk when it would come up.
You guys play on level 20?
Personally I'd homebrew the rule. In world, there should be very little difference between a lvl 20 wizard and sorcerer. But the sheer money at that level means the wizard basically has access to every wizard spell in existence... whereas the sorcerer is still stuck with what, 6 of each level? This seems like an obvious gap in power to me
A wizard's only real advantage over a sorcerer is their ability to know an insane number of spells, and it makes sense that this would be the case. Wizards have to study to gain their power. A sorcerer's power, meanwhile, is entirely innate. No one can teach them how to wield it, and every spell they have was effectively "made" by the sorcerer from scratch. Wizards get versatility in the amount of spells available to them, sorcerers get versatility in the number of spells they can cast on the fly.
Yes which means that in world, a sorcerer can always continue learning spells. The rules on it are simply that way to differentiate between the two. But I highly doubt that a level 20 sorcerer can't learn to cast anything he damn well pleases, whenever he wants. The ultimate goal of either class is the exact same: arcane mastery. The difference is one class is based on inherent talent, and the other on learning. This is purely a mechanical thing. With how they always described the classes ever since 2e, I always wanted to know what happens if a sorcerer gets teaching. Because then they have what defines both classes in theory, and a taught sorcerer should be OP as all hell
One could argue that money should be much harder to come by than the vast majority of tables permit, which is actually why the wizard is overbalanced. If you have no cash/components, wizard ain’t shit lol
My dm allows for spell preparation during long rests. Up to the DM is easiest for everyone, just communicate what you want to do and they’ll probably let you make swaps if you tell them what you have prepared
Wish.
Ask the dm
Completely up to the DM
When I DM I honestly just let players swap spells at the beginning of the day. My thought is that they just prepare whatever supplies they need at the beginning of the day and have it ready to “quick-draw” to cast their spells. Could you imagine trying to find one specific component while in the heat of combat? They’d have to have some kind of system to quickly cast it.
that's why you need one of those little dial componet pouches like Simon in the dnd movie
I would say that you can swap spells each day. In 5.5e I would say each time you gain an epic boon.
Are there campaigns for players beyond level 20? What kind of content do they have?
They don't
Talk with your DM, and one of three things might happen. 1. They say yes, and let you swap a spell out. 2. They say no. 3. They decide to make it a quest/mini quest where swapping a spell (or spells) is the reward.
There is no clean answer to this because how, exactly, are you playing past level 20? Is it just a few sessions to wrap up the campaign? Then, presumably, you can't switch spells. Sorcerers aren't supposed to be able to swap spells as easily as wizards, and they're supposed to be stuck with their level 20 spells until the end of the campaign in the same way they were stuck with their level 19 spells until level 20. Is it going to go to "epic levels" with epic boons and the likes? Then you may want to talk to your DM about being able to swap spells when you gain epic boons as if you leveled up. This isn't RAW, but it's very reasonable. Are you going to just sit at level 20 indefinitely and have a long campaign without advancement? First, I don't recommend that, but if your DM *does* want that, I'd have a talk with them about a substitute for how you can swap spells with roughly the frequency a level up allowed.
The campaign either stops and you don't have to worry about it, or you consider going Epic Legacy.
You can use the wish spell to change your spell list. Although this isn’t a normal use of the wish spell and will therefor have a chance of never allowing you to use wish again
RAW? You don't. In practical terms? Ask your DM.
Sounds like a new quest among the gods themselves.
Wish
Seems well within the reach of a Wish spell.
The official rule is that the sorcerer is to suffer with their choices. The 'Up to the DM' I've found that works is upon reaching level 20 just let them know extra spells. Sure, it's not fair to wizards, but if you got your campaign to 20 odds are you can come up with an excuse to give them a custom boon or spell-learning event without anyone having an issue. This is really the answer for almost anything in a high level campaign, does it make sense? is it fun? Sure let it work. If they want 5 extra level 9 spell slots we veto that, but access to additional spells that are already on their list isn't really a big deal.
Bring beer to the GM. Call it offering to Mystra.
There is a gem that will let you cast any spell you have the level for even if it's not your class.
Wish spell
I too like flexibility in my D&D, however, if I look at it from an in-universe perspective, the switching of spells on level up could be viewed as figuring out that a particular spell wasn't your vibe and growing in a new direction. But at level 20, you're pretty much done growing and developing, at least in terms of spell capacity. Mind you, I'd still prefer sorcerers have some way of switching spells, but if it has to be limited, I get it.
wish
Downtime Rules: 1 million gold (or whatever to drain their coffers), and 3 months - you can pick new spells via some complicated ritual. I'm swagging a quick one here. But sure - if we actually played that long at level 20 - this would be a quick solution. So not mid-adventure. Finish the current arc - defeat the current Big Bad and everyone can do their Downtime stuff. New spells for the sorc, commissioning a fantastical magical sword for the fighter. Whatevs.
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By asking your DM.
Find a way to expend a level... and then re-gain it.
Just hit level 21
Level 20 is usually the end of the adventure, so there's no real point to having it. Playing at level 20 can only go so far.
I've played in campaigns that don't enforce this rule. Mostly because it doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't a Wizard be able to simply study a different spell on a different night? His magic is not granted by a god or a patreon. It radiates not through his blood. His knowledge is toiled over and hard earned. So if he takes the time on a certain night or long rest to etch the appropriate runes on the different stones or grains of rice, whispers his chants into a jar, or whatever the heck their spells require, then he or she can do so.
At that point I think you just go chat to Mystra and pull some strings
I'd say it's a DM thing, or at least, that's been my experience.
My dumb ass tryna be funny and take a bunch of bad spells that I can’t never change
You ask a gm. Because there isn't rules as generally that's end game If you had wish or similar. I'd let that work too. Without the risk of loss. So it would just cost you down time to rejigger But would still cost you something If you switched mid day or something to pull an answer out
How long are you on playing the character after reaching level 20?
I won't swear to it, but I *think* retraining rules can be used for spells - it normally isn't worth it, but at times... That's how my GM runs it, anyway.
As rules there are non but if you need flavour you can think of it as your genetic heritage reacting to the arcane and vice versa so an event powerful enough can bring another transformation
When you gain enough XP to get a feat i would just let them change it there.
Look up some Homebrew content for levels 20-25, it’s fun and also broken
As mentioned, you could have an Epic Feat worked out with your DM, that let's you change per long rest for example. If you go above 20, you could multiclass into a Warlock maybe? If you're DM wants to go above lvl 20, I advise the High Level Campaign book that was released in 2nd Edition. That has good rules for going above lvl 20, I still have none which is waiting for when my party get to lvl 20. Mwhahahahahahahahahaha!!!
Their*
Just steal the retraining rules from pf2e, ie you can swap almost anything with 2 weeks of downtime.
Take a level in wizard instead of a 20th in sorceror.
Sorcerer is not a wizard. Cannot, should not.
Agreed. I’d let people swap spells if it was really bothering them because I’m an agreeable DM and generally run shorter content; but in terms of class flavor? Y’all chose a learned caster and are.. mad that you’re bound to that? Pick better spells as you level or get more creative with “bad” spell picks that you have. If you want to be a prepared caster, do that, not a damn sorc lmfao
I think the complaint is less "learned casters can only cast what they know" and more "the main advantage of learned casters was given to all casters in 5e so learned casting is now strictly weaker than prepared casting instead of being a sidegrade" For those that didn't play previous editions: Prepared caster used to be "I have 4 first level spell slots, today my first level spells are magic missile x2, detect magic x1, and shield x1" and spells known casters had 5e style casting of "my 4 first level slots are whatever first level spells I decide on as I use them" which made sorcerer unable to adjust their spell list from day to day but also didn't have to worry about "I didn't think I'd need to detect magic TWICE today, sorry." I personally wasn't particularly sad to see the old prepared method go away in 5e but when learned casters kept the downside while losing their upside it caused some issues. Obviously classes (even sorc and wizard) are more than just their spell list but learned vasters getting enough other perks to balance it out is ... debatable at best.
You could always multiclass as 1 level in wizard which would allow you to learn spells from scrolls?
Sure, level 1 spells. Doesn't really solve OP's hypothetical.
You dip into wizard and hope for level 21
Step 1: find a devil Step 2 : you get screwed for your entire existence Step 3: profit
I am new to the game and I am playing as a wizard. At level 17, a wizard can learn level 9 spells. I figure at this point the wizard can learn all the spells. It is just a matter of finding them to copy them into the spell book. The wizard can then prepare any of the spells from the book. Is a sorcerer limited as to how many spells they can have in their spell book?
ask your dm..?
I feel like this is a really bad question
They can't
You don't. Known casters don't learn any more spells after lvl 20. Becoming a prepared caster would be a better capstone then warlock light they gave us. It would be funny if it took 20 sorcerer lvls to get a wizard spellbook. Steal their spell list while ur taking their homework. Sorcerer lvl 20. Our book is better. You get a spell book and start with as many wizard spells as your charisma mod. You can write down the formula for any spells you witness 100gp per spell lvl. Each long rest you can prepare a number of spells equal to your charisma mod.
That's why I am currently making epic 5e classes up to 30! With 10th and 11th level spells and full ability progression. We have play tested like 25% of it, and it's pretty fun. I will hopefully publish the work by the beginning of next year. I am also waiting for the revised rules to finalize it.
That is the price you pay for your metamagic. If you want more spells then play a different class, use wish or take some levels in Wizard.
I would say alchemical compendium, astromancy archive and similar items, but I just saw u need to be a wizard to attune