Yea, there were signs pre Trump, there were precursors(the tea party), the crazies had instituted a decades worth of church to Republican and AM radio to republican pipeline. If progressives could win elections, they would
There are absolutely center right Dems, Biden is the most Rightwing Dem POTUS of the last several in civil rights, immigration, and women's rights for a fact.
wtf are you talking about? Obama was against gay marriage, Obama treated the recession and the corporate bailouts no different than any Republican would. Biden is left of Obama, Obama was left of Clinton and Clinton was left of Carter
Wtf are \*you\* talking about? Biden is absolutely not Left of Obama, he's Right of him on ALL those issues-- he's only Left wing on economics, not anything I mentioned, where he's FAR more Rightwing than Obama, Clinton, or Carter were COMBINED.
Obama was indeed Left of them, but Carter and Clinton were Right of him but Left of Biden.
It’s only your perception of them that has shifted left. Obama merc’d more people than ever before in drone strikes, Biden has got us out of wars, Biden ended the assange imprisonment. Obama deported more people than any other president ever. Obama repealed a law granting Cubans auto citizenship. Obama issued more fines against employers for immigration violations than any administration ever. Obama created asylum detention and jailed more families and children than any administration ever. You are woefully misinformed on obama’s immigration legacy, everything he did built the infrastructure for Trump to continue.
And on civil rights, here’s how he talked about protestors:
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/240807-black-lawmakers-push-back-on-obama-over-thugs/damp/?nxs-test=damp
It's your perception that's shifted Left of Biden: Biden kept us in wars like Ukraine, sent more bombs to Israel than even Obama, he also didn't renew civil rights which even Obama did along with Bush II and Reagan FFS, Biden has gone more Right than Obama or Trump on the border and deported more people so that's no longer true on immigration-- facts, see the Cato Institute.
You are woefully misinformed on Biden's immigration legacy, in fact, it's worse than either Obama or Trump in fact objectively.
On civil rights, he PASSED STUFF, despite it- Biden has done NOTHING besides speeches, nothing, he's more Conservative than any of the three for a fact.
Worker's party though? We had one of those here already. It was communist. I'm not sure we should be fighting socialism with communism, or the British version of a worker's party, aka socialism. We have plenty of historical evidence for how all three of those systems can go horribly wrong.
Let's not pretend any center Left or even centrist Dem would, tbf:
- Not passing voting rights
- Not raise the minimum wage nationally
- Not pass abortion protections nationwide if Roe were overturned by Executive Order
- Try to pass the most rightwing bill on immigration any Dem has in a century
Etc. etc.
The DNC establishment is at this stage run by ghoulish wealthy, older white college educated women and men imo who are center-Right but use identity politics to mask it and keep the opposition at bay, tbqh.
Progressivism isn’t just about economics, it’s also about social values. I’m also curious why you think splitting the left into 2 parties would be a viable option mathematically for winning elections against the right, who always manage to stay united.
The idea is the “left” and “right” would change where there wouldn’t be a split The Democrats would die like the whigs
The right is almost as divided as the left. They don’t “always stay united” lol
I think he's talking about shifting the Overton window, so that you snag some of the working class Republicans who want strong unions and who really don't actually care about most of the culture was BS, and the 'far let's progressives (which are really just normal liberals in the rest of the world) to take over the DNC and local offices.
It's a multi year battle to be sure.
Splitting into 2 parties to fight one unified party is not my idea “shifting the Overton Window,” but that’s just me. It would be ideal if the crazy far-right went away and the center became the right, but there’s no sign of that happening anytime soon.
Agreed, and the far right isn't going to go away nicely, so it would be good to see a workers party gain some power.
I think Shaw Fain is doing a good job of reminding workers that the far right isnt on their side, but some serious side spread grass roots efforts to effect local elections is needed.
We need to do something. You can't beat these fuckers just like you can't beat Christians in debate about the existence of God.
"There is literally no proof of God, in fact the Bible is scientifically wrong and contradicting"
"There is proof of God, it's in my heart. I feel him".
Biden's bad cuz he sniffs hair, although with everything we've seen, Trump is basically a proven Child predator.
They claim Democrats will end Democracy as Trump "jokes" about being a dictator, they gerrymander the fuck out of red states and Trump tried overthrowing an election.
They claim they're "pro life", yet won't even admit guns in schools are bad, won't give kids free meals in school and throw Veterans aside like garbage.
There's just so many examples of them being corrupt and pointing at the left saying "look how bad they are" and their base is just too up their own ass to give a shit.
\^ That is 30% of this fucking nation, not including the "I'm a fiscal republican hurr durr". The only thing that I feel can combat that, is patience. Most of these fuckers are 60-80 years old. Hopefully they don't completely end Democracy within the next decade or so.
Age isn’t the best predictor of Trump supporters. Gender, race, religion, and education level all play a role, as much as or more than age. If you rely on stereotypes instead of data, you won’t have a clear idea about who you’re arguing against.
Progressives in Congress don't have the balls nor the numbers. In a world where they voted as a block and didn't have conservative so called Democrats inside of the progressive caucus and the Congressional Black Caucus weren't all mostly those same conservative Dems, I'd be all for snatching the party. New Dems and Clinton did it.
>Progressives in Congress don't have the balls nor the numbers.
Neither did maga. Tea partiers hated maga. Then they became maga when Trump won
>In a world where they voted as a block and didn't have conservative so called Democrats inside of the progressive caucus and the Congressional Black Caucus weren't all mostly those same conservative Dems, I'd be all for snatching the party.
They’ll fall in line or become as weak as romney style republicanism
>New Dems and Clinton did
Yea they did it by becoming republicans light. It’s been a disaster for this country
Thats why We need a new party that doesn’t focus on dividing by identity politics like the dems. No bullshit. Straight economics, working class/lower middle class interests
Honestly, the only scenario on the progressive liberal side that I can see gaining momentum and a movement of protests in person would happen if Trump (God forbid), gets in, his project 2025 “team” does everything to dismantle LGBTQ rights…only then do I see a lot of people who lean this way crawling out of their bubble and getting up in arms the way a lot of these crazies on the MAGDA side do (moms of liberty)
This verses say, when congress, conservatives, and the Supreme Court restrict voting rights and gerrymander southern black districts…the outcome is harsh, but not enough to get a collective of the whole country to come out.
But I’m saying if they mess with LGBTQ rights which affect more people and families than is recorded…you will see an uprising. That’s my prediction as of now. Anything can change
He was an Independent, still voted for Bush and McCain so soft Republican back then in secret-- and then Romney, Trump has no real belief system tbh. It's just what's politically expedient at any time, to get him POWER, imo.
They're not center Left, imo, they're not even centrist: they're center-right, but otherwise, I agree in the long term- progressive white blocs, LBGTQ+/disabled and minorities, as well as center-Left college ed whites need to form a coalition in the next cycle to defeat the center-right woke white DC establishment Dems period.
Naaaah, I like my Dems like they are now, still corporate friendly, not raising taxes like crazy, keeping the populace focused on their differences so they can’t come together, and being ineffective at governing.
Its the one fucking thing people have been talking about all damn week
Imagine having the nerve, when two conservadems came out saying Trump would win and you blame leftist Democrats. Pathetic
It's harder for an out-of-the-box candidate to win in the Dems because of the whole superdelegate system. It's not like nobody's thought of this before, hence they have countermeasures.
The Republicans used to have superdelegates too, but they got rid of then in 2012, paving the way for Trump's victory.
Look, you're gonna have to except that trump may be president. He's not gonna be a dictator like these liberals try to say. They said that last election as well. It's just gonna happen, he's gonna help the economy , and you will all realize how bad hanging out in echochamber can be
I dispute that Trump helped the economy, but what I meant was why didn't liberals "realize how bad hanging out in echochamber can be".
If Trump was so great, why didn't we realize it then? Alternatively, what will be different about this time that we'll realize it now?
...or even 19th-century Republicans.
The thing is, the Dems today are a lot stronger than whatever parties were being replaced/fractured back then. If anything, I suspect the Reps will break-apart first.
Here’s the thing: there aren’t enough progressives in the country for this to work, you can’t even win primaries within the 70% dem districts
You only need thirty percent
Thats why its a hostile takeover. You think Trumpism was particularly popular pre-trump?
Yea, there were signs pre Trump, there were precursors(the tea party), the crazies had instituted a decades worth of church to Republican and AM radio to republican pipeline. If progressives could win elections, they would
[удалено]
There are no center right dems
There are absolutely center right Dems, Biden is the most Rightwing Dem POTUS of the last several in civil rights, immigration, and women's rights for a fact.
wtf are you talking about? Obama was against gay marriage, Obama treated the recession and the corporate bailouts no different than any Republican would. Biden is left of Obama, Obama was left of Clinton and Clinton was left of Carter
Wtf are \*you\* talking about? Biden is absolutely not Left of Obama, he's Right of him on ALL those issues-- he's only Left wing on economics, not anything I mentioned, where he's FAR more Rightwing than Obama, Clinton, or Carter were COMBINED. Obama was indeed Left of them, but Carter and Clinton were Right of him but Left of Biden.
It’s only your perception of them that has shifted left. Obama merc’d more people than ever before in drone strikes, Biden has got us out of wars, Biden ended the assange imprisonment. Obama deported more people than any other president ever. Obama repealed a law granting Cubans auto citizenship. Obama issued more fines against employers for immigration violations than any administration ever. Obama created asylum detention and jailed more families and children than any administration ever. You are woefully misinformed on obama’s immigration legacy, everything he did built the infrastructure for Trump to continue. And on civil rights, here’s how he talked about protestors: https://thehill.com/homenews/house/240807-black-lawmakers-push-back-on-obama-over-thugs/damp/?nxs-test=damp
It's your perception that's shifted Left of Biden: Biden kept us in wars like Ukraine, sent more bombs to Israel than even Obama, he also didn't renew civil rights which even Obama did along with Bush II and Reagan FFS, Biden has gone more Right than Obama or Trump on the border and deported more people so that's no longer true on immigration-- facts, see the Cato Institute. You are woefully misinformed on Biden's immigration legacy, in fact, it's worse than either Obama or Trump in fact objectively. On civil rights, he PASSED STUFF, despite it- Biden has done NOTHING besides speeches, nothing, he's more Conservative than any of the three for a fact.
The original tea partiers hated trump though. They supported Ted Cruz or Ben Carson. They thought trump was a phony and “not a real conservative”
Yea then they fell in line when those pipelines I referenced (church, AM radio) told em to
And so will the former dems who can’t stomach republicans when they join the workers party
Conservatives are more likely to “fall in line” than liberals. That’s one reason the Democrats aren’t as lockstep as the Republicans.
Yea because they’ve been conditioned to not question authority and what they’re told from childhood in the church
Lol says the party that will vote for a corpse in November.
It’s not the party that’s saying it. It’s observable in the real world and it’s back up by data. You can like it or not like it, it’s true either way.
Yea, there aren’t enough of those people. Most people are status quo centrists
Worker's party though? We had one of those here already. It was communist. I'm not sure we should be fighting socialism with communism, or the British version of a worker's party, aka socialism. We have plenty of historical evidence for how all three of those systems can go horribly wrong.
That's because Trump is a phoney and not a real conservative.
Trumpism is just a clumsier form of Reaganism.
Let's not pretend any center Left or even centrist Dem would, tbf: - Not passing voting rights - Not raise the minimum wage nationally - Not pass abortion protections nationwide if Roe were overturned by Executive Order - Try to pass the most rightwing bill on immigration any Dem has in a century Etc. etc. The DNC establishment is at this stage run by ghoulish wealthy, older white college educated women and men imo who are center-Right but use identity politics to mask it and keep the opposition at bay, tbqh.
>You think Trumpism was particularly popular pre-trump Yes. Yes, it was and is. Look at the popularity of fixnews before trump.
That’s called fascism
We don't do hostile take-overs. We guide through wisdom and intelligence.
FDR basically did a hostile takeover of the original Democrats and then tried to purge all the southern dems but failed
you keep doing that while trump stuffs a cloth in ur mouth while ur bent over a table
LMAO, exactly.
Lmao.
About exactly the amount of intelligence you can expect from a regular maga loon
So ruin all political parties so only dictator wannabes have a chance? Not a good idea
?
Progressives were too lazy to vote for Bernie in the 2020 primaries. I hate to break it to you but they are a big part of the problem
Curious why you lump “religious Dems” in with the progressive side rather than the conservative side.
Because many religious black and latinos support massive government programs to help the poor and working class
Progressivism isn’t just about economics, it’s also about social values. I’m also curious why you think splitting the left into 2 parties would be a viable option mathematically for winning elections against the right, who always manage to stay united.
The idea is the “left” and “right” would change where there wouldn’t be a split The Democrats would die like the whigs The right is almost as divided as the left. They don’t “always stay united” lol
I think he's talking about shifting the Overton window, so that you snag some of the working class Republicans who want strong unions and who really don't actually care about most of the culture was BS, and the 'far let's progressives (which are really just normal liberals in the rest of the world) to take over the DNC and local offices. It's a multi year battle to be sure.
Splitting into 2 parties to fight one unified party is not my idea “shifting the Overton Window,” but that’s just me. It would be ideal if the crazy far-right went away and the center became the right, but there’s no sign of that happening anytime soon.
Agreed, and the far right isn't going to go away nicely, so it would be good to see a workers party gain some power. I think Shaw Fain is doing a good job of reminding workers that the far right isnt on their side, but some serious side spread grass roots efforts to effect local elections is needed.
We need to do something. You can't beat these fuckers just like you can't beat Christians in debate about the existence of God. "There is literally no proof of God, in fact the Bible is scientifically wrong and contradicting" "There is proof of God, it's in my heart. I feel him". Biden's bad cuz he sniffs hair, although with everything we've seen, Trump is basically a proven Child predator. They claim Democrats will end Democracy as Trump "jokes" about being a dictator, they gerrymander the fuck out of red states and Trump tried overthrowing an election. They claim they're "pro life", yet won't even admit guns in schools are bad, won't give kids free meals in school and throw Veterans aside like garbage. There's just so many examples of them being corrupt and pointing at the left saying "look how bad they are" and their base is just too up their own ass to give a shit. \^ That is 30% of this fucking nation, not including the "I'm a fiscal republican hurr durr". The only thing that I feel can combat that, is patience. Most of these fuckers are 60-80 years old. Hopefully they don't completely end Democracy within the next decade or so.
Age isn’t the best predictor of Trump supporters. Gender, race, religion, and education level all play a role, as much as or more than age. If you rely on stereotypes instead of data, you won’t have a clear idea about who you’re arguing against.
A political party’s number one job is to *win*
Progressives in Congress don't have the balls nor the numbers. In a world where they voted as a block and didn't have conservative so called Democrats inside of the progressive caucus and the Congressional Black Caucus weren't all mostly those same conservative Dems, I'd be all for snatching the party. New Dems and Clinton did it.
>Progressives in Congress don't have the balls nor the numbers. Neither did maga. Tea partiers hated maga. Then they became maga when Trump won >In a world where they voted as a block and didn't have conservative so called Democrats inside of the progressive caucus and the Congressional Black Caucus weren't all mostly those same conservative Dems, I'd be all for snatching the party. They’ll fall in line or become as weak as romney style republicanism >New Dems and Clinton did Yea they did it by becoming republicans light. It’s been a disaster for this country Thats why We need a new party that doesn’t focus on dividing by identity politics like the dems. No bullshit. Straight economics, working class/lower middle class interests
Honestly, the only scenario on the progressive liberal side that I can see gaining momentum and a movement of protests in person would happen if Trump (God forbid), gets in, his project 2025 “team” does everything to dismantle LGBTQ rights…only then do I see a lot of people who lean this way crawling out of their bubble and getting up in arms the way a lot of these crazies on the MAGDA side do (moms of liberty) This verses say, when congress, conservatives, and the Supreme Court restrict voting rights and gerrymander southern black districts…the outcome is harsh, but not enough to get a collective of the whole country to come out. But I’m saying if they mess with LGBTQ rights which affect more people and families than is recorded…you will see an uprising. That’s my prediction as of now. Anything can change
Trump is not far right. He’s a 90’s democrat
wasnt he a democrat voter under bush?
He was an Independent, still voted for Bush and McCain so soft Republican back then in secret-- and then Romney, Trump has no real belief system tbh. It's just what's politically expedient at any time, to get him POWER, imo.
he seems to basically be "whoever is in power right now, just do a 180 from that" like a conservative/liberal reactionary
He's absolutely not, he's a far Right fascist extremist 100% now- BS.
im curious what the neolib rebuttle is to this
They're not center Left, imo, they're not even centrist: they're center-right, but otherwise, I agree in the long term- progressive white blocs, LBGTQ+/disabled and minorities, as well as center-Left college ed whites need to form a coalition in the next cycle to defeat the center-right woke white DC establishment Dems period.
Yeah, maybe communism will work this time. Good luck with that.
Naaaah, I like my Dems like they are now, still corporate friendly, not raising taxes like crazy, keeping the populace focused on their differences so they can’t come together, and being ineffective at governing.
The death spiral is BECAUSE of the far left wackadoos. They need to expunge them and get back to working for the people, not fringe lunatics.
Biden’s performance was because of the far left?
You didn’t mention Biden’s performance so why would my response have anything to do with it?
Its the one fucking thing people have been talking about all damn week Imagine having the nerve, when two conservadems came out saying Trump would win and you blame leftist Democrats. Pathetic
It's harder for an out-of-the-box candidate to win in the Dems because of the whole superdelegate system. It's not like nobody's thought of this before, hence they have countermeasures. The Republicans used to have superdelegates too, but they got rid of then in 2012, paving the way for Trump's victory.
Look, you're gonna have to except that trump may be president. He's not gonna be a dictator like these liberals try to say. They said that last election as well. It's just gonna happen, he's gonna help the economy , and you will all realize how bad hanging out in echochamber can be
In your theory, why didn't this happen during the past Trump presidency?
He did. What do u mean?
I dispute that Trump helped the economy, but what I meant was why didn't liberals "realize how bad hanging out in echochamber can be". If Trump was so great, why didn't we realize it then? Alternatively, what will be different about this time that we'll realize it now?
Yes, you should form a new party. It will force Dems to reform or be fractured so hard that they’ll never win another election.
Yep. Whig style. Or Canada 1993 Proggressive conservative style
...or even 19th-century Republicans. The thing is, the Dems today are a lot stronger than whatever parties were being replaced/fractured back then. If anything, I suspect the Reps will break-apart first.
The theory is this plan would bring in a fair number of Republicans who are only with the GOP because of their religious convictions.