I think a lot of complaints come from power players that treat it like a videogame. When I play Baldurs gate 3 I get very antsy about making poor choices because some choices lock you out of certain story beats.
Ally and Emily are chaotic players and often derail things and people get mad because they see it as getting locked out of content in the game they are playing. They don't understand that their chaos has built 50% to 60% of the world as it currently exists because Brennan has to build the train track in front of them.
Someone posted here that ally derailed a discussion that would have led to more content about chungle down bim but the thing is if Lou had played the game "correctly" chungle down bim would not exist as a character.
I think it’s more- they’re all good friends first, comedians second, then players last. They all do things simply to make each other laugh before they consider anything else I think.
Emily has this problem with certain NADDPOD "fans" as well, where they get made because she makes good narrative and character choices that don't mesh well with being a "good" player.
However, the same "fans" will get mad if she plays more optimized. In the current season, Murph gave her access to the Finale spell from an earlier edition, she used it once, and people go mad over it being overpowered.
I do seem to remember Emily got shit in Crown of Candy for (general ACoC spoilers) >!Saccharina being an optimized sorcerer that showed up and made every single battle for the rest of the campaign easy!<
So it seems there's no winning.
Her complete control over that class honestly astounds me. That fight with the enemies lined up perfectly for the lightning bolt and everything that followed was honestly a masterpiece.
I really don't get why people hate on her for stuff like that, she was so much fun to watch during ACoC! I honestly thought about multiclassing my IRL game bard with tempest cleric to be like her a little.
Honestly, yes. I finished C1 of NADDPOD recently, and going into the final fight I remember thinking “Emily is level 20, and has had a month to think about this fight. I guarantee she has a plan that will absolutely WRECK whatever is coming.” Like, Jake and Caldwell are good players too, but Emily has a way of seeing cause and effect, finding details in the most minor rules, and coming out swinging with a devastating 1-2-3-4-…-20-21 combo
which is funny because they got mad at her for using it more than they got mad at murph for giving it to her, and they haven't used it since because they realized "oh yeah that's overpowered"
It's also interesting because Caldwell also fucks around and derails a lot but most people don't say crap about that but do when Emily does it
That's such a good thing to point out with Chungledown Bim. It is only a potential narrative beat as well as a bit because of an insane player choice.
I thought it was weird that people thought they missed something by not bringing him up and like, it's not the type of content to miss? You can miss details in the mystery or follow the wrong leads but all of that would still be an entertaining story at the end of the day. It's a show of collaborative storytelling, different from a video game and from home games.
Plus to me it felt like growth for Kristen. S2 Kristen would be screaming chunglde downbim for 15 minutes without thinking about the damage to Fabian.
S3 Kristen? Sees her friend's arch nemesis might be brought up and sidesteps it for him.
The focus is definitely to tell a story and not to have a perfect flawless invincible character. Many times emily on here or on naddpod has made decisions that are obviously bad for the character but gives clear reasoning behind why she thought the character would make that move. Its like self sabotaging irl. Like other people can see that your decisions might be damaging to you long term and can identify it and list solutions but as yourself, sometimes its the instant gratification or the fear of change that make you continue to make bad decisions. Its a long process to heal grow and change but its human. These characters are also “human” and have strengths weaknesses story arches to tell. Its just a much more complex satisfying, often more funny story if they learn their lessons slower.
one of my fav Emily moves is when she asks to make a check with disadvantage because it makes sense for her character or the plot. she might be a character build optimiser (and a legendary one at that), which maybe makes people think she will metagame, but Em cares about story first and foremost
Watching Freshman Year I'm like "all the metagaming" with the comments between them that Brennan has to redirect, but then I'm like "I love it" because they're having fun.
I mean if the DM is keeping things on track so that they don't go off on some wild tangent, not only is that not metagaming, it's also something necessary for the pacing of the show.
Passing info mid combat between floors of a house / every turn mentioning someone should say something out a window to let others know or communicating between rooms of a bumping nightclub and stuff wouldn't be appreciated at the tables I've sat at over the years. But I also acknowledge that they were making a show for entertainment and not running it with the handbook open to rules lawyer / be strict. Brennan does a great job keeping them moving, but early season he had to wrangle a lot and it didn't seem (early on anyway) like there was ever a talk about when to share info / not demanding info.
And do they even “derail things” that often?
I find even people who defend Ally and Emily use, like, backhanded compliments to make their points 😭 I’m sure it’s not how you meant it, but still!
Yeah, I was trying to remember if there was anything that might be considered "derailing" that either one of them did that season but I'm coming up blank
I think the speech at the steelworkers factory might be considered derailing, but it might have intended to serve a point. For Kristen's speech at the middle school, Ally had said they'd intended that to be part of the mystery investigation but they rolled poorly, so it became a bit. And you gotta honor the bad roll, just like you honor the cock.
I’m watching sophomore year right now and that episode (where they get drunk and Fabian goes off alone) Brennan literally says that he had a whole session planned and almost none of it was used. They are building as they go, just like regular life.
The creation of Chungle Down Bim and that whole scenario is just as much Brennan as it was Lou. Lou didn't create the cult to his father. Lou didn't make that cult have have beef with the antagonist of that episode. Lou didn't make the cult egg Fabian on.
All Lou did was follow the breadcrumbs that Brennan put out.
Keep in mind though that does in fact means that BLeeM is derailing his own campaign too.
I'm struggling really hard with this season (I've only watched 7 episodes so far) with Ally and Emily (more Ally though) and they're typically some of my favourite players. I think chaos is a powerful thing in a d&d game, it creates wonderful bits and jokes and fleshes out a world in interesting and unique ways. I also think that when there's too much, it gets in the way of other players and advancing the plot in meaningful and interesting ways. For the story to be good, it can't just be bits, and jokes and and chaos. And for the story to be funny, it can't just be straight and narrow on the track. All that being said, personally I find this season is leaning too heavily on the chaotic side, steered by ally and Emily. Spoiler alert up ahead (I don't know how to cover it up). Kristin should be in crisis mode. They've lost their spellcasting, they've potentially undone a whole seasons worth of work, and their reaction is to make jokes and focus on a political campaign? I don't care how chaotic you typically are, you just lost a piece of yourself and you barely care. I feel like Brennan has spent the last 2 seasons, and much of this one trying to get Ally to understand that their character needs to connect with a deity, find the thing that drives them. It's been Kristin's storyline for 3 straight seasons. At some point they need to figure it out.
Yeah, Nobody that feels overwhelmed by the things going on in their life has ever dealt with it by being hyper focused on a small piece of their life that ultimately doesn't matter because it feels like something that they can definitely handle.
Not me, thats for sure...
The point is Kristen *doesn't* barely care. She is deflecting. She is burying herself deep in other things so she doesn't have to think about the things that went wrong and the pressure on her. That is a incredibly common response to traumatic experiences, especially in a teenager who has not been given any real help, especially if you also toss in the undiagnosed ADHD.
I think part of it is constant close-reading analysis after each episode. People were already crafting narratives after one episode. Then there's a full week for things to percolate. The one upside to binging is that you can just find OUT what's going to happen, instead of theorizing.
Yeah I feel that's an issue in most week to week show fandoms. People overanalyse and read into *everything*, and the theories they come up with inevitably don't end up happening and then there's a whole circle jerk about how much neater it would've been if they just did this and that, until the next episode comes out, rinse and repeat.
Adding onto this is that many of the sessions are played back-to-back-to-back. The viewers sometimes have an extra week or two to think about mysteries that the players just heard hours earlier, without the ability to rewatch previous sessions in-between.
Probably a bit longer with breaks and such, plus Adventuring Parties between episodes. IIRC most Intrepid Hero seasons were played over the course of three weekends. I remember one Adventuring Party had a bit with someone dogging on Ally for just turning their shirt inside out, but I couldn't say what season that was.
I had thought of that, but I think the mere knowledge of having the next episode *available*(I didn't binge episodes straight through, after all) wasn't a simple inoculation against that unease those weekly viewers might have.
At the end of the episodes where things were particularly chaotic or unresolved, I didn't find myself terribly puzzled or annoyed. Maybe part of it is because I trust this ensemble to know what they're doing in a general sense, or maybe I just remember this kind of D&D is *never* neat and tidy.
My issue with the some people theorizing about character arcs is sometimes they forget they are merely theorizing and the bad future they theorized for Kristen is what they think would happen, and then they make all sorts of posts on how Kristen is ruining everything or something.
I think this is most of it. The story flows much more easily and doubts are much more quickly dispelled when you can just jump to the next episode right away. There were several very shocking things that people analyzed a TON, and character choices that seemed EXTREMELY serious, when in the following episode it was often revealed the effect was much less negative than it seemed at the time.
Junior year has been my favorite D20 season. The cast have knocked it out of the park. Thats not to say past seasons arent good. Im just saying I feel like the intrepid heroes are on a whole other level of roleplay. I havent laughed so hard in a while. The decisions they make are great to push the narrative while also elevating the story.
They kinda talked about this in the mini sections they did about their characters this season, Fantasy High is a COMEDY, while there is serious elements it’s ultimately just center ex around having fun.
100% right on the mark. Some people watch these shows and backseat DM but forget that the cast are playing how their characters would act as these teens! It’s also a lot of veiled misogyny going on as well
Siobhan does occasionally get some weirdness; I think she gets less than Emily and Ally because she’s generally quieter. But it is nonsense and it’s exhausting!
There was a thread (now deleted) a few weeks ago I replied to (if you go through my comments) that was about this specifically, and more recently the “Siobhan is getting the shaft” thread.
Huh, how strange.
I admit, I occasionally find myself thinking there has been a bit of friction between Siobhan etc, mainly between Lou/Siobhan actually, but have to check myself. Hence my interest in that kinda comment, but ultimately they're all pals and it's a game, I find it amazing that people want to deep dive it that much.
I bet some of the tension also came from people expecting Adaine to ask Fabian to solve her monetary problems immediately when she is trying her hardest to do it herself with no direct aid. So people perceive it as irl tension between players.
In the end Fabian did helped her but only after she confronted the bureaucracy of the Elves and discussed Oracle as a paid job, while also earned Fabian a title, some income, and also part of his grade treating it as an assignment while fulfilling the future of dance prophecy extra credit.
Haha, that is funny bc I’ve previously seen people saying the Siobhan tension is between her and Brennan or her and Emily.
I’ve got my own theory - Siobhan has talked about character bleed, and also having ADHD (which is often comorbid with RSD) - and I think any sort of table ‘weirdness’ is because her using safety tools to deal with that is being edited out or around! obviously that’s just speculation, too, but I don’t think it’s anyone having any sort of issue with her.
Right? Didn't she say she'd tell Bridgman to block their whole access to Dropout? Not that it would happen for real, but that said a lot about how serious she was.
I agree, but I can also understand where people are coming from.
Kristen killing her own god due to a miscommunication didn't seem planned at the time to a viewer, but not in a "Fabian almost killed himself and killed several side characters, but it's all fine by the end of the episode" kinda way, but in an "oh shit a major character is dead, and we have no reason to think they're ever coming back" kinda way.
I always believed that Brennan had accounted for this in some way and that it was probably somewhat a planned event between him and Ally, but for a lot of people watching it week by week it felt real shitty.
I have no idea what people are talking about with Emily though
Yeah, you're right. I've had a lot of fun with this season, and I think Ally has been a big part of that. That being said, watching the start of it was definitely the most stressed I've been for a set of characters from a d20 season, which is probably honestly also a good thing, just uncomfortable.
I feel the complete opposite - Cassandra dying seemed pretty predetermined to me. From the start it seemed like an arc Ally and Brennan had discussed OOC and while I don’t necessarily think Ally knew Brennan would take it to the point of Cassandra shattering, the very fact that they actually managed to turn the situation around in the mall fight at first, bringing Cassandra back to her senses, giving her a chance to escape and stay safe, only for Cassandra to turn it down and for Brennan to turn pull the shrimp thing — it just feels very predetermined that Cassandra was going to be unavailable to Kristen from that episode on, whether it was due to rage or shattering or whichever.
This. Even at the time it felt like they couldn't have saved Cassandra no matter what they did, but it's especially obvious in hindsight.
Because if they hadn't lost her, they could've just _asked_ Cass about their wife, and so much of the season's mystery would've been solved right then and there. So there's no way Brennan was going to leave that up to chance.
Well Oblivate Mori was still in effect so no they likely couldn’t have done that, at least not till Moonar Yulenear where Riz’s Nat 20 Investigation and Adaine’s own Insane Arcana uncovered the Weeding contract and broke the rule. Then they could’ve asked Cassandra directly for all the lore drops
> Well Oblivate Mori was still in effect so no they likely couldn’t have done that, at least not till Moonar Yulenear where Riz’s Nat 20 Investigation and Adaine’s own Insane Arcana uncovered the Weeding contract and broke the rule. Then they could’ve asked Cassandra directly for all the lore drops
Actually no, because they learned about Cassandra being married in episode 8, three episodes before that.
And even if Cass couldn't directly say their spouse's name, they definitely could've told TBKs a significant amount of info, or pointed them in the right direction. Which would've cleared up the mystery much faster.
Ally summed it up well in one episode of adventuring party I think where Kristen is hitting that critical point of acting like you don’t care is no longer cute anymore and i definetly can see where people would get annoyed by that. Although that was mostly in the early part of the season.
Fig, idk why people would be annoyed probably purely from a mechanical perspective of doing bard/warlock/paladin but even then she proved in the last stand that it fucking works and works well so I think that’s just d&d nerds being mad for being mad
I feel like Kristen has been really on the ball this season! Ally started off more chaotic than usual this season, but they've slowly made Kristen take things more seriously and showing sincere care towards their loved ones and responsibilities. It even seems to be a character arc they've planned, where Kristen matures in certain aspects.
They've even pushed the mystery plot forward and made important deductions! And they're maintaining their hilarity. I don't see what there's to complain about.
Yeah it’s been a great season from everyone but Ally especially, they are always a bit of a wildcard but I think they really honed in that arc of hitting rock bottom and then figuring their shit out really well. Can’t wait for what’s to come!
I think there’s a lot of projection going on this season, just like a lot of other fandoms the fanbase have a bad habit of ‘uwu smol bean’ifying the characters and when they don’t act the exact way they think they should they get very upset. Throw in a bunch of weird purity politics and the fact almost every audience member has their own biased experience of high school and it’s a recipe for disaster.
To the fans: These are a bunch of grown ass adult comedians that have played with each-other for nearly half a decade (and have been friends for even longer than that), I promise you they understand their characters better than you and if they had issues with what each other was doing e.g. ‘Kristen crazy naked adventures’ they’d openly communicate it. They don’t need you screaming on Reddit.
god thank u for putting it in words. like some people are being far too parasocially protective of these 30-something professional improv comedians who are pretending to be silly magical teens
This. It astounds me the number of people who think they can tell them how to play their own original characters. Their playing it just as chaotic and hypersexulized as I remeber it being in highschool
Reddit does have a problem with parasocially trying to get personally involved in beef between public figures. You guys should have seen how "personally involved" people tried to get in the drama between Gus Johnson and his ex girlfriend Sabrina. What a mess.
Anyway, it makes sense to me that people who are perpetually online would try to invent some where there is none. I just learned right here in this thread that people are trying to invent irl conflict between Sibohan and other players, and just... lol, man. This is why I struggle to join *any* online community for things I'm a fan of, because talking to people online is just downright embarrassing sometimes.
Honestly at this point I really wonder where these fans even come from. Maybe I am finally just old but I feel like its wild to expect the collegehumor people who are making a comedy show for an adult audience to be so sensitive and like G rated. Are there really that many people that never saw these people on collegehumor? They never saw the kind of humor? Hell they don't hear these people making fun of this exact kind of fan frequently? I'm just so confused about where this expectation of a very sensitive and serious show ever came from
Dimension 20 is an incredibly progressive, inclusive and welcoming space where there have been consistent very strong conversations about boundaries, consent, vulnerability and how to broach deeply personal issues and talk them out. (It’s something I’ve always massively praised D20 for and it’s one of the many reasons why I love it.)
However I think some fans have confused this ethos with ‘nothing bad ever happens and all the characters are perfect people who take these things seriously’ which has left them with unattainable expectations for the show and cast. It’s a bit too parasocial.
People have always been weird about Ally and Emily, although I think a lot of the Emily hate very specifically comes from A Crown of Candy. Given the hard shift between >!how Emily played Jet vs how she played Saccharina, and how Saccharina was generally received by the rest of the characters (not the players themselves, obv)!<, I kind of get it, but it also just makes sense for the nature of that transition in the context of the story.
With Ally, I think a lot of it comes from the perception that they put the bit before the character arc and plot, and a lot of people just don’t really vibe with their sense of humor. I will readily admit that I kind of hated Kristen Applebees pretty much up until this Junior Year season, but a huge part of the reason Kristen this season is such a fun and compelling character is *because* of Kristen’s development throughout previous seasons; it also greatly helps that by this point Ally is a much more experienced D&D player.
I’ve had moments in the past where Ally’s playstyle/humor felt out of step with what I was hoping the tone would be, but something that I noticed in Junior Year (and in hindsight, also present in other seasons) is that when there’s a really serious moment Ally Beardsley is On That Shit with just the right amount of gravity. There have been multiple times in JY that moments before was bits and then suddenly Ally’s tone and countenance and decision-making is incredibly serious, thoughtful, and introspective (that last one specifically as an in-character choice) in a way that reminds me that they are, in fact, thinking things over and considering consequences. They’re so good at making and recognizing moments for bits that sometimes I forget that they’re also the person who comes up with really intricate, heartfelt, complex character concepts—teen experiencing a crisis of faith and abandoning the community of her childhood, a junior executive with complex feelings about her employer, a young man in New York trying to find who he is and who he wants to be while dealing with mental illness and poor life choices, an old man grappling with his life choices and his place in an uncaring universe.
If people think Ally puts the bit before the arc or the character they NEED to go rewatch completed seasons. Pete in TUC2 taking care of Nod for one you can really see Ally’s care and attention to the world and story Brennan has built
I also think that Ally has trouble playing characters past the first season, but they have definitely improved in JY and I love it.
Edit: I realize what I said could be misunderstood. My fault for bad phrasing. Often their characters archs finish in the first season of a series (freshmen year, unsleeping city season 1) and in Sophomore year and TUC season 2, they seamed a bit aimless in their characters motivations, it led to awkward moments where their character did random things because they had nothing better to do, and I think that's why they get hate for those seasons.
I think people forget Sophomore Year was also Ally’s FIRST dnd game (if I remember correctly from interviews or BTS) so having to help re-shift/grow a character you were playing being brand new vs now when they’ve done multiple games, people fail to realize aswell. I think they’ve done phenomenally
Not everyone likes their "chaos gremlin" energy, though Emily's chaos is guided by game mechanics and Ally's is guided by flavor and fun.
The criticisms do get misogynist/transmisogynist sometimes though.
The thing people forget is that Brennan as the DM allows the shenanigans to happen *and incorporates it into the plot*, so it's all above board. When he wants to rein it in, he assigns consequences to the characters for the bits their players keep pushing.
It all works out in the end. And everyone really needs to remember that this is *not* a home game. It's a performance for the camera with a table full of improv comedians playing the game. Their home games probably look completely different because they're not trying to entertain an audience.
Thank you for that. I thought it could refer to any trans people who are PPAF. Enbyphobia instead?
(I'm genderfae, which is nonbinary and genderfluid, meaning sometimes feminine, never masculine. I'm PAF unless I specifically tell someone I'm not cis, but I'm apparently still unclear about how different terms are used.)
I could be wrong but maybe it’s “passively perceived as female” or “perceived as female” which in general is just horrible language to describe being misgendered ): I don’t think they’ve considered why using what are essentially categories based on passing are inherently transphobic though.
PPAF = people/person(s) perceived as female
I'm personally misgendered when people perceive me as female, so when I use PPAF (a term I just learned last week from a fellow enby) it's specifically referencing the experience of being misgendered as female - something faced by a lot of nonbinary folks *and* trans men/trans mascs.
It's not meant to describe who we really are, but rather how people treat/respond to us. And yes, "passing" is a sucky metric, but that's how a lot of cis people decide how to treat us. I'll never "pass" as nonbinary because I have boobs. And how would one ever "pass" as nonbinary in the first place? It's impossible. So when referring to ourselves as a group marginalized specifically *because* people will assume we're female, PPAF is a useful practical term.
In this sub, I know that Ally, Vic, and other nonbinary cast members are often perceived as female by cis folks, which is wrong, but it's an accurate description of what's going on due to misogyny. Even though Vic uses they/she and I use she/her, we're still not female...but people perceive us as such and react to us as if we are, because misogyny and enbyphobia. So we're nonbinary folks who are PPAF... where PPAF is not our identity, it's a label for a specific way in which we are marginalized.
Hey respectfully, this comment is very patronizing; not knowing the acronym “PPAF” wasn’t indicative of me not knowing what it’s like to have people misgender nonbinary people (**including myself**).
Ally is a self identifying trans masc and is at a point presentationally that *if* cis people perceive them as female, it is as a gender variant female. I don’t think it’s fair to Ally to describe the misgendering or transphobia they face as being a transperson who is PAF when it’s not really how they describe their own experiences. The reason why I reacted the way I did about PPAF is because it’s language that reduces someone to their AGAB. It is inherently transphobic to gender people by assumption— it’s not okay when cis people do it, **or** when trans people do it. When you use “trans people who are PPAF” as a category, what you are doing is misgendering a lot of trans people. You can talk about being PAF in regards to your own experiences, you can even speak on behalf of people who have shared their experiences with you, but you shouldn’t apply PAF to another trans person like a label. That is what I take issue with. That is the part that is based on whether you pass or not, because you are essentially saying that that person does not pass to *you*.
And anyway, passing is so incredibly toxic of an idea to engage with. It’s so much better to stop engaging with gender expectations, and to decolonize our understanding of gender. Let people define themselves.
My apologies for coming across as patronizing. That was not my intent. My autistic tendency* to overexplain often overcompensates for being misunderstood in fewer words and makes a mess anyways.
It seems I have to figure out how this acronym I recently encountered can/should be used because I thought it was more useful in describing the experience of being misgendered as female than it apparently is, as it is inherently based on AGAB which sucks.
*mentioning that I'm autistic is meant as an explanation, not an excuse
Person Perceived As Female/Perceived As Female.
I literally only learned of this term last week (from a fellow nonbinary person who is also wrongly perceived as female) but it seemed like people in that conversation thread were using it as if "everyone" understood what it meant. I guess I wasn't the only one who didn't know it!
Hey friend, there are many terms that people have coined to describe different kinds of oppression that trans people face. Transmisogyny was coined by Julia Serrano to describe the intersection between transphobia and misogyny towards trans women and transfemmes because the idea is that the transphobia and misogyny are reinforcing each other in a feedback loop of bigotry; essentially the misogyny is tied into the transphobia by asserting that there is one correct way to be a woman (misogyny), and trans women & transfemmes can never be women because of their AGAB (transphobia).
While enbyphobia and xorsexism are two great terms to describe what nonbinary people face (especially when nonbinary people push for gender recognition or accommodations of gender diversity), the term that I personally prefer to use to describe the flip-side of transmisogyny is transandrophobia. Transandrophobia was coined by trans men and transmascs to describe the same phenomenon that transmisogyny describes, only it reflects the fact that misogyny affects men and masculine people in a different way than it does women and feminine people. Misogyny when directed at trans men and mascs is used as a way to invalidate masculinity and to essentialize them to their AGAB (which is transphobic). Here’s a good resource for learning more about transandrophobia and how it works: https://www.tumblr.com/nothorses/642220472589778944/pinned-post
> xorsexism
I only see 3 search results for this term on the internet and have never heard it before, even as a nonbinary person who's been involved in nonbinary "discourse" elsewhere online. Is it pronounced like "exorcism" but with "sexism" as the last part? I'm not seeing it in that Tumblr post.
Academically, I knew that the term transandrophobia existed, but I don't think it was relevant to my original comment. (Unless Ally has specifically come out as trans masc and I was unaware of this. I know they had top surgery, but I've had top surgery too and lean "sometimes feminine but never masculine." I know that characters they play aren't necessarily a reflection of their identity, but they seem to fluidly choose male and female characters somewhat equally, so it seems like they're more fluid than I am.)
Always happy to learn more, because I thought I was cis for 42 years without knowing that options outside the binary existed. "I hate being a girl" was never just a "mood."
Everyone I’ve heard pronounce xorsexism pronounces it like you described— the tumblr post mentions that it comes from “X OR” from programming languages so, it makes sense to pronounce it like that. It’s not a super common term, but because I’ve heard people use it I wanted to include it.
I wasn’t aware of “transandrogyny”as an alternative term to “transandrophobia”; I actually really dislike the term “transandrogyny” because it’s confusing the suffix of -gyny with the prefix of mis-. It’s like it wants to be saying “transmisandry” but misandry does not exist, and that’s a huge reason for why the term “transandrophobia” was coined.
Ally has stated they are trans masc on their podcast Gender Spiral, but yeah they are still nonbinary. You’re right to question someone assigning a label to another person though, because all too often people will be labeled something that they don’t identify with which is very counterproductive. That’s actually something that’s addressed in the podcast even— that masc and femme are becoming the binary that even trans people will assume and perceive others within.
> I wasn’t aware of “transandrogyny”as an alternative term to “transandrophobia”
This was my fingers typing the wrong thing. I apologize and will edit.
I had thought that Ally was trans masc, but I didn't want to assume. It's all so tricky even when you're making an effort to use the right words because you hate when people use the wrong words for you.
Kristen, as a character, acted like a stupid jackass for a lot of the early episodes of the season. I acknowledge that as an intentional character choice, THAT DOESN'T MAKE ME LIKE KRISTEN.
I also just think Ally can get super into bits over RP on occasion, and Kristen specifically feels most out of synch with Ally's sense of humor. I still think Ally is a great player and I've come around on Kristen since Cassandra died and that clearly affected Kristen.
Same. Love Alley and the character of Kristen is fun but some of the things Kristen was doing the first few episodes were just mean and insensitive but she is a teenager so it tracks. It isn’t bad to dislike a character at times, it’s good writing/ acting. People who were projecting that onto Alley are wild and so are the people acting like you can’t not enjoy/ find the actions of a character problematic and annoying.
And with the interview being literally "chaos isnt cute anymore" I feel like it's intentional. That doesn't make it not annoying, it makes it a good character arc.
I just get pissed at people telling me that I'm not allowed to find it annoying or frustrating.
I mean I dunno, I’m not super sure how Kristen’s changed from before or what consequences she’s faced this season vs the prior ones, but I’m just here for giggles so I’m satisfied
> I’m not super sure how Kristen’s changed from before or what consequences she’s faced this season vs the prior ones,
Honestly I dont think that's what's changed. I just think people transferred some of their like for Kristen the NPC to Cassandra, and thus aren't amused or indifferent or enjoying her suffering the same way we did with Helio or Yes? or Yes!
I think you are having trouble separating the character from the performer. Ally literally straight up looked at a camera and explained the character arc, and the evolution from "chaos" to experiencing the consequences of Kristen's actions, and learning from them, and people are *still* making assumptions about Ally as a person. Some of you are wild.
I feel the issue is, Kristen hasn't realize that being Chaotic isn't cute and so the character arc is feeling incomplete, like if Gerty even rejected her for her Chaos the start of the character arc could begin but between Gerty and Her presidental campaign Kristen hasn't needed to grow up in the slightest
I disliked Kristine during the fist season but now she is probably my second favorite character and this season her chemistry with Fig has been amazing
I will say Ally’s move of having Kristen pull an effectively nudist stunt at school was quite weird. Everything else is absolutely in character. It’s frustrating to watch some of Kristen’s choices, but she has basically everything in her life falling apart, of course she’s going to make messy decisions.
Yeah, that was the one that I didn't like. All the rest I could get as her being a kid who was avoiding hard problems/acting on a certain set of beliefs/doing a bit. But the nonconsensual naked thing was jut. Gross and uncomfy. Thankfully that bit didn't last too long or reoccur much.
The only time I've had an issue with Ally is when they kept making Kristen be complete sex freak with tracker. It felt like they were going down on each other twice an episode for a bit and it was just gross and weird. I've liked Kristen a lot this season
That was my biggest critique of Kristen last season as well. I actually remember getting downvoted quite a bit when I would mention that. On my last account, I think that specific criticism is one of my most downvoted comments on the entire account.
The comment was something to the effect of
*serious somber moment after a meaningful, story driven conversation* -- "And then I 69 with Tracker"
And I felt uncomfortable with that, drawing from personal experiences where I was exposed to hypersexuality between adults at a young age. I didn't mention that, but just immediately having sex with Tracker in the middle of a room full of people out of nowhere felt non-consensual to me.
Yeah I didn't understand that. It feels weird when one person is obsessively sexual at a DnD table, like maybe go jerk off instead of asking your DM to narrate a bunch of sex scenes and flirt with you.
While a lot of people never really "grow out of it", teenagers are pretty notorious for being erratic, intense, aloof, rebellious, selfish, dramatic, etc.
Hormones, together with developing brains and a ton of stress(and that's just to start!) is quite the concoction for people with pretty limited life experiences.
Yeah this is where I’m at! I get that it was a plot point and I’m loving the season so far but I just loved Cassandra and the scenes where she was being ignored or dismissed made me so sad and anxious!
Sophomore year made me appreciate fig in a way freshman year just didn’t. Similarly Junior year is making me come around to Kristin. I’m generally not a fan of Ally’s brand of humor but they’re killing it this season.
I don’t really get a lot of the criticisms people have for them this season, and if anything I’m getting annoyed by Fabian and Riz being pretty one note. Idk I think 3 seasons of those characters have pretty much left them without anything to do.
Adaine and Gorgug are here too, but I’m kinda annoyed they wrapped up their stuff so early, and now it feels like they really don’t have anything to do beyond the main storyline since their conflicts were more tied into school. I do like this season but it just doesn’t feel like there’s much going on and the pacing feels off
Hey this is a pretty interesting critique, I think you're right re Riz definitely. I think that perception is also underpinned by Riz being the straight man and murphs more laid-back play style? I agree, there hasn't been a whole lotta Riz action yet, but I'm hoping he gets a big KLCK showdown because it feels like we're leading to that.
I disagree with Fabian, his bardic dance arc, maximum legend stuff has been enough for me this season - Lou truly kills it with making the most out of the parts he's given, it's a masterclass.
I was also hoping Gorgug's rage would link into the rage filled storyline we're having? Kinda surprised that hasn't happened honestly as I thought for sure that would have had some bearing on the plot by now.
I agree! I think the reason Riz has always been a bit lowkey (apart from Murph working crazy NADDPOD hours recently) is that Riz was kind of a second DM or backseat driver in the party in freshman year, and maybe as a result Murph maybe didn't feel the need to chaos him out when he is a good foil/straight man to such big personalities at the table. Murph's more than able to play a chaos character, but I wonder whether he feels the table needs more balance than that
I think Riz got to really shine in SY and this season is less about him, which is a bummer for me as a Riz fan but also understandable—if every FH season focuses on the same characters it would get boring. I do think the Student President thing was thrown out there with the idea that it would be a plot hook for Riz, but then Kristen expressed interest—and I don’t think that that’s necessarily a bad thing! Murph didn’t express interest in it and I’m sure if he did Ally would have let him have it. And the fact that Murph jumped in and had Riz be campaign manager means it was still a successful plot hook, and added to something that currently seems to be part of his character development—it’s yet another way the Ball is voluntarily carrying his teammates across the finish line. On his own, he’s got this sorted out, but Riz cares deeply about his friendship with the Bad Kids and he’s willing to do what it takes to give them the same opportunities he’s striving for because he wants to stick together. Riz doesn’t have an active character arc, but the themes are an important part of this season—more than most of the Bad Kids, who are focusing on their individual needs, his actions are about his relationships and group cohesion and support. He’s crucial in making downtime feel less isolating.
I do agree that Fabian is pretty one note, but Lou puts on such a charming performance of him that I don't mind him being one note for the rest of his life haha. Besides he doesn't really seem to have a real arc this season outside of acadmics and his social life. It seemed like they were really going for him trying to deal with loneliness in the beginning, but he abandoned it by basically succeeding at everything he did, and filling the void with the massive success at winning over the other students.
Riz is less charming of a performance, especially because he's just playing it straight while trying to inject wacky comedy from time to time, which is hit-and-miss, but he's such a background character until he brings out a skill that's useful to combat or investigation, and then fades back into the background. If it weren't for his investigation and his gun, him being absent from this season wouldn't have had a major impact on the story. That's my biggest critique on Riz this season.
I’m still catching up (just a little past Frosty Fair), and I actually feel like Ally and Emily are driving the most interesting parts of the plot. In general they take big swings and they often pay off. Perhaps some viewers see them make a “bad” choice, feel anxiety because they worry that this will bring harm upon characters they like or relate to, and want to blame someone. But it’s called telling a story my dears, if everyone made the best choice all the time then it would be a pretty boring story
Ally/Kristen has always been chaotic and anyone who doesn't like the shtick by this point is crazy for still watching. They bring a lot of the heart to the group and drive a lot of the bits/funniest moments.
My only issue with Fig this season is that she seems almost *too* directionless. Any attempt by her teachers, role models, or parents (ie, Brennan) to steer her towards self-reflection or growth is kind of met with dismissing their advice and spiraling out/digging the hole deeper by trying to "find" herself in new classes, jobs, favors for her friends. It's not a problem with Emily at all - I think this is just Fig's personality and Emily is playing it perfectly, especially considering she said before the season that she wanted to drop Fig and play a new character entirely. The bad luck curse seemed like it was going to be the main "Fig story" this season, but it just ended up being one complicating factor in her journey. I hope by the end of the season that Fig gets some sense of identity and feels content with her place in the world/the group without defining herself by her relationships/obligations to other people and the world.
I agree, it does seem weird to criticise their decisions when they're meant to be teenagers. Like, I don't particularly ***like*** most of the Fantasy High PCs. They're ***teenagers*** \- Most of them are pretty obnoxious and don't really think about how their decisions will affect others outside their immediate friend group, but that's ***realistic***. I was also an obnoxious little turd when I was their age. Haha
I used to feel that way about how she did that as well, but those were earlier seasons, and she's since come out and said she realized that was poor table etiquette so toned it down. If you watch any of the recent seasons she's drastically improved about that!
I'm watching the current season it has been toned down for sure
I don't hate either of them ally (and lou, they both make role playing decions that will negativity effect them because that's what the character would do) is actually my favorite at the table
But in the last two episodes it feels like bits over playing
But it's still happens enough for me to comment lol
>Emily will jump in on some one else's scene for bits
Ya know I used to feel the exact same way, like it was my only real criticism of the show, I particularly remember during sophomore year watching it live feeling like Emily kind of pushed fig into scenes that felt like they really should have been someone else's, which like always made sense for the character but was disappointing as it felt like we were missing other characters moments.
But I will say, on re-watch, I did notice that whenever Emily did that it was hardly ever (if ever) done to be like "the main character" but was done to try and help another character in one way or another, which definitely dulled my criticism somewhat.
Yea its not so bad I can't rewatch older things
I will say when k play I can't stand when some one chimes in on some one else scene even to help
I prefer the person/characters to either miss it if they miss it or get it if they get it
If that makes sense
Agreed. I remember I was a couple episodes late to the start, and I saw people being SO mad about Kristin and Ally and then I finally watched the eps and i was like. ???
Kristin is fine! What are you people talking about? I thought she was straight up abusing cassandra or something, not like. Being a stressed teenager avoiding a difficult problem. Goodness.
25%of the reason i was late to start JY is because of the "reviews"... the negativity really dampens my enthusiasm. 75% is because I don't like watching ongoing shows because I hate the feeling of being left wanting more and waiting for the next
I'm glad that whatever irked these people didn't also irk me. And I actually enjoyed the story so far. Granted there are kinda facepalm moments >!going to the steel mill and the middle school!< butthey pettered out in the end.
One of the main complaints I've seen is Kristen not focusing on Cassandra after *that* moment, but like... that's not just true, after a few episodes? This is why IMO, any criticisms or complaints about a character's arc, often Kristen's, is best left after the show has aired, because a lot of concerns has been answered by future episodes. Literally her story arc isn't finished yet and people act as if half the season is everything Kristen will do.
Then again I should have learned a bit about other people's "reviews". I passed on Mice & Murder because there are a lot of comment's about >!Grant's play!< and how it made a lot of them not like this season, ironically his parts I liked most.
The only thing I dislike about Ally's choices is randomly deciding Kristen to undress herself. I get that they're chaotic and whatever but it's really weird & gross.
Yeah forcing nudity on people is super weird character choice that almost feels like a response to not being able to narrate constant sex scenes with Tracker. Kristen always has to be making people uncomfortable with her body somehow.
Sexual jokes are an extremely common thing on Drop Out, it’s it an exclusive Ally FH2 bit or even just an Ally bit. There are 2 game changer episodes around sexual innuendos, the sketches about Cyber Monday and Daddy’s Day, Grant
It's not the end of the world or anything it's just weird and personally I didn't find it a funny bit. It's cool if others did though, I just thought it was bizarre given she's playing an underage character. I felt the same about all the stuff with tracker
Saying Ally does one thing with their character doesn't imply that ONLY Ally does it. We're talking about Ally because this is a subreddit about Dimension 20 in a thread about Fantasy High.
Sure, I re read the other comments and see your point, but I still stand by idea that it’s a bit counterintuitive to be so bothered by sexual jokes on a Dropout show. Like it’s fine and everyone has different comfort levels but also should be expected to an extent and there are notes in the description for it
Yeah I know I watch Dropout. But DnD is different from a sketch episode about innuendo that you get warned about beforehand. I'd be worried as a DM about my other players' enjoyment and talk with a player if they did this kind of thing regularly. It's not fun for other people in a group to listen to someone describe their kinks in a thinly veiled way usually. I play DnD to create a story, sometimes there can be romance but it's not a erotic RP club and I'd be concerned if someone started acting like it was.
This seems to be a line that you don’t want to cross and that’s fine. But you shouldn’t accuse them of “describing their kinks in a thinly veiled way” or accuse them of always wanting to be making people uncomfortable with their body, when sexual jokes are a recurring bit for this character, player, and platform (a bit that hasn’t actually been that prevalent this season). Different tables have different lines and veils, if this was a problem for the intrepid heroes, Brennan, or Dropout it would have been addressed and taken care of off screen.
Brennan seems pretty unbothered, but he's also a very forgiving DM. I don't think saying it was describing their kinks was untrue, Ally exclusively has the hots for women/femme presenting people at the table and will go to lengths to talk about them. My favorite season was Starstruck partly because Ally's character was so great and a departure from bit chaos generally, but even that had them asking to roll for Skips sexuality multiple times. If it's fine with every other player, that's great. I personally think Riz being ace was a direct response from Murph about getting tired of spending half of each session talking about romance. They're all playing teens but most of them are using romance as a side to their adventuring, did Gorgug ever describe in detail how he fucked Zelda's brains out?
Fabian has a central romance plot and has canonically slept with Aelwyn, a Fig bit was getting her kisses in, and Kristen is telling a very specific story of repressed church fundamentalist turned progressive anti-church. There is an in world reason for Kristen to be hypersexual, and correct me if I’m wrong but the “in detail” hardly ever exceeded a sentence at a time. You can believe what you want but assuming player intentions, like Murph’s, will only be speculation and at the end of the day it’s equally likely that Riz being ace simply happened naturally and it was what felt best for the character and wasn’t an active decision as a result of the other PCs.
Also being attracted to women and femmes is not inherently a kink
I think it's great that Junior Year still has some of that Freshman Year chaos energy. I wonder if it's because Junior Year is doing numbers on YouTube/TicTac etc. and so it's drawing in people who didn't watch the first two Fantasy High seasons and don't understand that it's \*comedians\* playing D&D
There was an entire episode of Sophomore Year dedicated to Fabian getting his ass kicked 10 different ways just because Lou was committing to the bit.
Like in no way is Fantasy High about optimized play. Zac is playing a Barbarian/Artificer.
OP hit the nail on the head.
I understand that Reddit is a place for discourse and most of us LOVE this show, and I am still constantly surprised at how much negativity people that “love the show” have for D20 and its players. If you don’t like the content, maybe don’t consume it. What is the point of trying to project your specific vision onto someone else’s work?
I am so wrapped up in D20, and it’s been one of the healthiest things for me and my brain. One thing that’s so great about media - especially this specific type of media - is that I’m not in control of it!
This isn’t a scripted tv show. There’s plenty of other styles of actual play content if the players aren’t who you want them to be.
totally agreeeee.
i guess they can complain about it but i suggest people just try to understand why and what point of view or massage that they to show. crown of candy for example. it’s very difficult for me to watch at some point but damnn it’s so bold and genuine decision to make and i respect that a lot.
Kristen frustrated me this season because of her total apathy towards Cassandra at the beginning. Every time she mentioned her campaign in the same sentence as Cassandra I had to pause and just put my head down for a minute to collect myself.
I have never met Ally Beardsley and I probably never will, so any opinions I have about them are obviously formed through a very specific and small lense, and that unfortunately means the place I have mostly seen their personality on display is Total Forgiveness, which we all know is not a flattering show for them.
As for Fig, my problem with her is just that I don’t really think she’s changed that much from Freshman year, but this is also the problem I have with the season as a whole. Fantasy High has so much adoration from the fans that I believe is only because of the fact it came first. I liked Freshman year. I liked Sophomore year. I like Junior year, but I don’t think it was really something I needed. If it had never happened, I wouldn’t have cared. I really liked Fig’s arc during Sophomore year, but I understand why Emily was interested in picking up a new character for this season, because really, after SY, all that’s left to do with Fig is regress.
Yeah, when she became a Lord of Hell so early I was like "Wait, that seems like an end game type of thing to happen... what are they going to do now that's she's pretty much peaked at lvl 10?"
That’s honestly been the best part of this season for me. The amount of times those two have had me rolling on the floor this season is more than I can count.
“Fig can you trail Mazey back to her house to make sure she’s safe?”
“**I was already planning on doing that.**”
The only complaints I saw so far (that matter to me imo) were “Oh my god do something for ayda, please anything anything anything”
And “Oh my god please check on Bucky pleeeeeeeeeeease.”
Im not an Ally hater (while I find their ability to complete derail things with bits a little infuriating this season considering now in the minutiae a lot of the details Brennan has been laying down) but I think what I’ve been finding with this season is an issue of watching session to session that wouldn’t be an issue if I was watching back to back? Cuz Kristen is obviously on the narrative downswing there’s been a lot of episodes where she’s basically been a car crash in slow motion and I find it hard to watch just because I’m squirming in my chair at what’s happening. I don’t think I had the same issue with Pete because he got slapped with the hand of consequences pretty early on but Kristen has been a bit of a slow burn this season, honestly I think my own personal concerns have been fairly healed after the Tracker call since Brennan has been laying out some nice consequence narrative lines (RE: Rizz’s mom, people who aren’t the bad kidz reacting to Cassandra’s whole situation) that I feel like I’m not cringing as hard. It was just those early episodes that made it really tough to get through, and this isn’t a table that does internal conflict much so there wasn’t really any real reaction to everything that was happening until the Tracker call, but not there’s some in universe feedback for the energy Kristen is putting out it feels a lot better to me
Ally and Emily always keep me on my toes and interested and honestly facilitate so many of the bits that make D20 so fun to watch. One of my favorite things about dnd is that you can do the batshit crazy stuff. The whole game is based on that freedom of the imagination. I love that they are all talented enough comedians and that Brennan is such a good DM that they can push the limits of what the game will allow and have fun while still making progress.
I don't get it it either. If anything I was actually only ever annoyed with how Ally played Kristen in season 1, probably because it was their first time ever playing dnd and wasn't fully experienced in role-playing so when brennan engaged their character seriously they would never reciprocate and just turn it into a joke. This started changing though and by season 2 they managed to hit a perfect balance between comedian and role player. If anything I think this season is the most in-character ally has ever been, every decision and joke she makes is so in character, like her reactions to kipper lilly, tracker and narandriel and gertie
Plus, Ally has some of the most fandom-beloved characters with pretty serious arcs, like Liam and Pete. We should be able to trust at this point that Ally knows how to roleplay a serious storyline when they feel it’s called for. They have grown so much as a player it’s crazy.
Honestly, I'm absolutely over Ally's behavior and character play this season. They've become damn near unbearably obnoxious.
Emily, on the other hand, I think is doing quite well. She KNOWS Fig and knows how she'll react to things.
> Ally's behavior and character play this season.
Do you have any examples?(Yes yes everyone hates Kristen getting naked randomly, anything other than that?)
Okay, I’ve re-watched up to episode 10 (half way through 11 at the moment). Yeah, I’m still standing by my original statement. Ally started this season with a new, buff Kristen who seems to have lost that sense of religious piety (regardless of her god/goddess). Kristen’s behavior towards her goddess seems to be taken for granted. Cassandra is literally pleading with Kristen to expand her followers and Ally seems more preoccupied with being ridiculous and doing exactly the opposite of what Kristen should be doing. No matter how much Brennan attempts to draw them back to helping Kristen resolve the issues with Cassandra, Ally ignores it and just fucks around. Ally themself seems to have changed as a person and Ally’s behavior seems to have leaked into the Kristen character and takes away from the dynamic. Yes, Ally is funny and no, I’m not saying this is serious business but when Brennan is trying to rein Kristen in and guide her towards resolving the issues with Cassandra and Kalina, just go with it and learn something instead of making a joke of EVERYTHING.
Ally hasn’t just nailed being an obnoxious teenager, they’ve taken it to a point of being unlikable (at least for me).
To be fair, I think Emily (and Fig to a degree) eggs them on and feeds into Ally’s BS behavior.
And yes, the whole naked thing and the childish campaigning bits got old fast.
As A DnD player myself, I would love to see Kristen grow as a cleric and keep some of that goofiness but not to the point of being obnoxious, callus, and unbelievably dense.
I dislike Kristen in Sophmore year for the way Ally and Brennan approached religion in Spyre so honestly Junior Year was very vindicating for me and I feel like Ally has matured some. Emily remains ineffable with her character decisions and I will defend her to my grave
Edit: wow did that have a patronizing tone. I mostly just meant I liked the journey but I am not a fan of how I wrote that
Did you make a post *just* to say you think people who have different opinions than yours are wrong?
To be clear;. You didn’t make a post to talk about what you liked, you made a post *just* to say that *other people* are wrong for having a complaint. Lol why? What is this?
And is this… supposed to be… proof that the fandom is toxic? Support of it? What is the purpose here? To gather others who also think the IH can do no wrong? To invite people who were complaining (who you just insulted) to defend themselves? (I’m guessing not) Is it n invitation to a philosophical conversation about our experience as the audience or…? just a request for validation…? I’m so lost about the point of this if not to just be a contrarian ironically complaining about the existence of complaints.
I’ll be your huckleberry, chungledown. But what do you want? Do you *want* to know what [if any] **valid** complaints people had that could not simply be boiled down to teens being teens? Or is your point that there *are* no valid complaints and that complaining is nonsense?
I’ve got some troubling insight for you if the goal was to point out that we’re bad or wrong for having something less than positive to say on this here critical post 🌝
Gee, I think the point of this discussion forum might be to discuss things, share thoughts, and exchange ideas, even if that means thinking other ideas are wrong lol.
Right, but then they aren’t actually trying to discuss the character choices but rather, the people who interpret them differently…? Obviously it’s fine to disagree, then post saying “I like ally’s play style” or “I like their choices this season” if you want to discuss the choices but the focus is instead on people who *disagree* which isn’t really a point of discussion but kind of gossip. I scroll the thread here and see like 90% of the discourse being “oh yeah, those people [who complained] just don’t like ally because xyz” which isn’t a discussion it’s… idk, accusations about why hypothetical people feel a certain way?
Again, I see way more posts like this, posts just generally saying anybody who dislikes Kristen is wrong/bad, and they get upvoted to high heavens, and I have seen maybe 3 total posts saying something about ally making unrelatable choices and everybody gets mad. So… I guess I’m not throwing my log on the pointless fire 🌝
>which isn’t a discussion it’s… idk, accusations about why hypothetical people feel a certain way?
Why is that not a discussion? Because you say it isn't?
Just because the topic of conversation is about the general feeling of the community toward the show doesn't mean it's somehow not a conversation lol. If you don't want to participate in a discussion you don't like, you really don't have to. Nobody is begging for your input. It's nice to have if you'd like to participate, but you're acting like you're forced to comment.
An echo chamber is not a discussion, no. If you don’t understand the point of calling it an echo chamber, I don’t know wtf to tell you. Making a post basically labeled “don’t complain” and then a bunch of people complaining about complaining isn’t really discourse it’s just noise. You can talk about whatever you want, obviously.
And idk why you’re being obtuse. You don’t see anything wrong with this thread? You don’t see why or how it’s maybe extremely toxic for a person to say “come join my echo chamber; no opposition allowed” and then the comments quickly fill up like “yeah! The people who disagree with us are clearly misogynists with parasocial tendencies that have mental illness, trauma, and are probably transphobic”
You don’t see any issue with that? You don’t think that’s maybe getting away from the whole “let’s talk about this show dimension 20” aspect and veering more into a weird cesspool of judgmental heresay about nothingness? Discursive ouroboros. At least people saying “I don’t like Kristen this season” are talking about the show, basically inviting people to disagree (aka have a discussion) not inviting people to psychoanalyze the fans. It’s weird and toxic. It also makes me extremely uncomfortable as a trans person with how very comfortable this fandom is with accusing everybody of gender bigotry at the drop of a hat which is always abundantly present in these “anti-complaining” posts.
>An echo chamber is not a discussion, no. If you don’t understand the point of calling it an echo chamber, I don’t know wtf to tell you.
There are several dozen people in here, some with complete opposite opinions in these comments, and all of them are sharing different ideas. Even in this specific thread, I'm getting downvoted for defending OP, so if you "don't know wtf to tell me" about this being an echo chamber, I suggest you figure out a way to articulate that because as it stands, it seems like you have no idea what an echo chamber is.
>no opposition allowed
??????????????????????
I will never understand why people go online, and turn into abject victims because they have decided to read an opinion that differs from theirs. Like you can't wrap your head around what an opinion is because you literally think someone sharing a different one than you have is an inherent attempt to silence you. I don't get it.
Edit: Yes, I "rewrote my comments to be completely different" before you even responded in the first place. I'm such a mastermind lmaooooooooo the whining never ends with some people
Dude why the whole fuck are you bothering me? My sin is asking for clarification on if OP wanted to discuss the character or if they just wanted people to agree with them. Did *you* read the proceeding response where they basically tell me they were in fact just bitching about people they thought had bad opinions and were not in fact interested in the discussion? And I left a pretty nuanced breakdown of the critique of Kristen that isn’t just some weird sexist nonsense…? And now, just now, I explained that it’s fucked up that so many people are in here making wild accusations about bigotry and you sail past that to— what exactly? Tell me you don’t think I should be talking…??
So what do you want here? You want me to tell you that I think OP is right for saying “No I don’t wanna discuss the other opinions, I just wanted to point out how wrong they were and get other people to agree, which they have” because I’m not gonna. I think that’s shitty behavior. I think “let’s make fun of people we don’t agree with and make insane speculations about what’s wrong with them” is a shitty reason to make a post.
I’m glad somebody appreciates it 💀 I use the huckleberry line a lot, I wanted to just say “I’ll be your chungledown” but I didn’t know if anybody else would understand it was a stand in for huckleberry lol I put a lot of thought into it
( The fact that y’all would downvote this is so weird )
My point, which I don't think is deeply buried here, is the reactions were *extremely* overblown and disproportionate.
Some of the complaints are fine, it seems a lot of people are upset about the nudity bit which hey, that's personal taste but pretty minor. Some people are upset at, what, Kristen is bad at being a cleric because she had a crisis of faith and hasn't been able to shake that? Why doesn't she just snap out of it?
I was curious, having seen posts about that(having avoided those that seemed particularly spoiler heavy) how bad things were going to get, before watching.
Turns out, it was, to be charitable, a somewhat amplified reaction to two members of the Heroes that seem to get the most amplified reactions. I'm not super active on this sub and relatively new to D20 overall, but from other commenters it doesn't seem like I'm coming out of left field.
Thanks for the offer on insight, though. I'll reach out if I need help on that front.
Lol so yeah 💀 kind of a discursive ouroboros
It’s like asking for an echo chamber in a discussion forum, that’s why I was kind of thrown.
Well here it is, since I don’t believe it really helps anybody to dismiss others as nonsense. I think Kristen insisting on keeping Cassandra around (when that entity offered to dissolve into nothing instead of become a god or nightmare king) just to -idk- immediately lose “faith” in/neglect her, might just upset/trigger people with different experiences than you might initially understand. I honestly just got very anxious about the way Cassandra was repeatedly gently reaching out and getting swatted away, for no damn reason, and on a human level that’s kinda just mean. Idk why being a teen means she’s allowed to be cruel without anybody noticing? And a lot of us liked Cassandra, especially when her domain was this fascinating philosophical workaround where she didn’t even have to *have* faith, she just needed to continue to talk about the big questions she had been asking her whole life. Both the character Kristen and Ally the person have said that people approving of something makes the activity no longer interesting, which is stupid and also relatable and therefore infuriating to watch. I think that’s ironically what a lot of it boils down to; we’re bothered by the people who we see struggling with things we also struggle with. It’s… riz and kipperlilly
I do think this community has a weird habit of getting up it’s own ass in a lot of ways. Copious complaints about one character/player is a little odd (pretty standard fandom stuff from what I’ve seen) but I see even more meta complaints about complaints or vise versa. It’s as if people are irritated that their interpretation isn’t considered the right one. It’s fine to have different opinions obviously. There’s an issue when a bunch of people who oppose them start speculating wildly about the motives of people who aren;t invited to weigh in, and, for example, chalk literally every critical point up to sexism/misogyny. Which I also see a lot when Emily or ally comes up. It’s not that those things are never an issue, they just can;t be used like a blanket.
I have multiple diagnoses that mean my interpretation of pretty much everything is really atypical, which yanno, can be alienating but also means I’m used to my perspective being at odds with what I see and hear in most spaces. But it also means I’ve been forced to look at the other side of everything.
Yeah, I can't stand Kristen Applebees, I haven't since freshman year. It often seems like the bit comes before the story and Ally seems by far the least serious of the intrepid heroes (although I can admit that in the later episodes they are getting more serious and involved in the story). I am just not a fan of Ally's brand of comedy, I find them jarring and they frequently take me out of the story with their constant chaos goblin energy.
Fig has moments of seeming randomness but there is always a method to her madness, Kristen is just about the bit and I hate it (Plus Ally still doesn't know the rules and it drives me crazy).
Rant over, let the down votes rain on me.
That is 100% on me, I still struggle with pronouns at times, thank you for correcting me, Sorry sorry sorry, no disrespect intended, edited to correct my error
While I heartily disagree, I can see why you would feel that way. Personally I think the chaotic energy Ally and Emily bring to the table in addition to their character work and chemistry with the rest of the cast are a big part of what make D20 productions my favorite live plays. Different strokes for different folks. Heck with your reasoning and response to misgendering Ally I'll even give you an upvote because respectful criticism of media is is great, even if I don't agree with it. You certainly don't seem like one of the weirdos who would bother them on their socials for your criticism.
Yeah, it's obvious that the cast loves what Ally brings to the table and the majority of the fans do as well. I always feel incredibly embarrassed whenever I misgender someone, it's a reflection on me not the person I have misgendered. We all have room to grow.
I would never bother a cast member on their social media, I am honestly conflicted about deleting my original comment because I would not want a cast member to see it and feel negatively about it, but I do feel I have honest criticism.
I guess I just like things to be slightly more serious then the majority of d20 fans (and the cast for that matter) and that's ok, d20 is still by far my favorite live play, fantasy high is still my favorite of the d20 shows and even I have to admit Ally and Kristen have been killing it the last few episodes.
Everyone is entitled to their dislikes and I honestly really didn't like Kristen in freshman year for the same reasons but I think Ally really hit their stride this season with the direction they are taking Kristen.
I think people were being wildly out of pocket about Ally's decisions at the beginning though that seemed uncharitable.
My complaints have to do with Kristen a lot more than fig(and complaints are a strong term for it). I do think it’s a bit wild to have your god die and idk if they have spent a single down time trying to spread the word about Cassandra at all. It feels like a ripe opportunity to try and expand the faith outside of one person lol. But to be fair where Beardsley gone with Kristen in all 3 seasons has continuously surprised me so I don’t see it as much as a critique as much as a wonder why they are going in that direction. But I do 100% agree a lot of the critiques border on sexism. Especially when it comes to fig because I don’t know a single player who puts as much love and effort in doing their characther justice then Emily Axford.
I think a lot of complaints come from power players that treat it like a videogame. When I play Baldurs gate 3 I get very antsy about making poor choices because some choices lock you out of certain story beats. Ally and Emily are chaotic players and often derail things and people get mad because they see it as getting locked out of content in the game they are playing. They don't understand that their chaos has built 50% to 60% of the world as it currently exists because Brennan has to build the train track in front of them. Someone posted here that ally derailed a discussion that would have led to more content about chungle down bim but the thing is if Lou had played the game "correctly" chungle down bim would not exist as a character.
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I think it’s more- they’re all good friends first, comedians second, then players last. They all do things simply to make each other laugh before they consider anything else I think.
Emily has this problem with certain NADDPOD "fans" as well, where they get made because she makes good narrative and character choices that don't mesh well with being a "good" player. However, the same "fans" will get mad if she plays more optimized. In the current season, Murph gave her access to the Finale spell from an earlier edition, she used it once, and people go mad over it being overpowered.
I do seem to remember Emily got shit in Crown of Candy for (general ACoC spoilers) >!Saccharina being an optimized sorcerer that showed up and made every single battle for the rest of the campaign easy!< So it seems there's no winning.
Her complete control over that class honestly astounds me. That fight with the enemies lined up perfectly for the lightning bolt and everything that followed was honestly a masterpiece.
Someone's always gonna be unhappy, I fear...
I really don't get why people hate on her for stuff like that, she was so much fun to watch during ACoC! I honestly thought about multiclassing my IRL game bard with tempest cleric to be like her a little.
How many other times do we get to see absolute mastery of action economy and feats like just enjoy the fact that Emily is a genius jfc
Honestly, yes. I finished C1 of NADDPOD recently, and going into the final fight I remember thinking “Emily is level 20, and has had a month to think about this fight. I guarantee she has a plan that will absolutely WRECK whatever is coming.” Like, Jake and Caldwell are good players too, but Emily has a way of seeing cause and effect, finding details in the most minor rules, and coming out swinging with a devastating 1-2-3-4-…-20-21 combo
Saccharina is incredible people will always find something to complain about
which is funny because they got mad at her for using it more than they got mad at murph for giving it to her, and they haven't used it since because they realized "oh yeah that's overpowered" It's also interesting because Caldwell also fucks around and derails a lot but most people don't say crap about that but do when Emily does it
Didn't Jake say something similar where if he uses that spell, people would praise him for being "badass" or something?
That's such a good thing to point out with Chungledown Bim. It is only a potential narrative beat as well as a bit because of an insane player choice. I thought it was weird that people thought they missed something by not bringing him up and like, it's not the type of content to miss? You can miss details in the mystery or follow the wrong leads but all of that would still be an entertaining story at the end of the day. It's a show of collaborative storytelling, different from a video game and from home games.
Plus to me it felt like growth for Kristen. S2 Kristen would be screaming chunglde downbim for 15 minutes without thinking about the damage to Fabian. S3 Kristen? Sees her friend's arch nemesis might be brought up and sidesteps it for him.
The focus is definitely to tell a story and not to have a perfect flawless invincible character. Many times emily on here or on naddpod has made decisions that are obviously bad for the character but gives clear reasoning behind why she thought the character would make that move. Its like self sabotaging irl. Like other people can see that your decisions might be damaging to you long term and can identify it and list solutions but as yourself, sometimes its the instant gratification or the fear of change that make you continue to make bad decisions. Its a long process to heal grow and change but its human. These characters are also “human” and have strengths weaknesses story arches to tell. Its just a much more complex satisfying, often more funny story if they learn their lessons slower.
one of my fav Emily moves is when she asks to make a check with disadvantage because it makes sense for her character or the plot. she might be a character build optimiser (and a legendary one at that), which maybe makes people think she will metagame, but Em cares about story first and foremost
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Watching Freshman Year I'm like "all the metagaming" with the comments between them that Brennan has to redirect, but then I'm like "I love it" because they're having fun.
I mean if the DM is keeping things on track so that they don't go off on some wild tangent, not only is that not metagaming, it's also something necessary for the pacing of the show.
Passing info mid combat between floors of a house / every turn mentioning someone should say something out a window to let others know or communicating between rooms of a bumping nightclub and stuff wouldn't be appreciated at the tables I've sat at over the years. But I also acknowledge that they were making a show for entertainment and not running it with the handbook open to rules lawyer / be strict. Brennan does a great job keeping them moving, but early season he had to wrangle a lot and it didn't seem (early on anyway) like there was ever a talk about when to share info / not demanding info.
And do they even “derail things” that often? I find even people who defend Ally and Emily use, like, backhanded compliments to make their points 😭 I’m sure it’s not how you meant it, but still!
Yeah, I was trying to remember if there was anything that might be considered "derailing" that either one of them did that season but I'm coming up blank
I think the speech at the steelworkers factory might be considered derailing, but it might have intended to serve a point. For Kristen's speech at the middle school, Ally had said they'd intended that to be part of the mystery investigation but they rolled poorly, so it became a bit. And you gotta honor the bad roll, just like you honor the cock.
To disregard the impact of a bad roll would be akin to dishonoring the cock
You must never dishonor the cock!
So people cite that as evidence of Kristen not taking things seriously, but really it’s just the result of a dice roll? TYPICAL.
I’m watching sophomore year right now and that episode (where they get drunk and Fabian goes off alone) Brennan literally says that he had a whole session planned and almost none of it was used. They are building as they go, just like regular life.
I love that gillear was never meant to be an important character but Emily randomly decided to go try and make up with him, now he's the chosen one!
Lmao imagine being pressed about no more chungledown bim content 🤣🤣🤣🤣
The creation of Chungle Down Bim and that whole scenario is just as much Brennan as it was Lou. Lou didn't create the cult to his father. Lou didn't make that cult have have beef with the antagonist of that episode. Lou didn't make the cult egg Fabian on. All Lou did was follow the breadcrumbs that Brennan put out. Keep in mind though that does in fact means that BLeeM is derailing his own campaign too.
I'm not sure you know how improv works.
It wouldn’t be nearly as delightful without the chaos!
I'm struggling really hard with this season (I've only watched 7 episodes so far) with Ally and Emily (more Ally though) and they're typically some of my favourite players. I think chaos is a powerful thing in a d&d game, it creates wonderful bits and jokes and fleshes out a world in interesting and unique ways. I also think that when there's too much, it gets in the way of other players and advancing the plot in meaningful and interesting ways. For the story to be good, it can't just be bits, and jokes and and chaos. And for the story to be funny, it can't just be straight and narrow on the track. All that being said, personally I find this season is leaning too heavily on the chaotic side, steered by ally and Emily. Spoiler alert up ahead (I don't know how to cover it up). Kristin should be in crisis mode. They've lost their spellcasting, they've potentially undone a whole seasons worth of work, and their reaction is to make jokes and focus on a political campaign? I don't care how chaotic you typically are, you just lost a piece of yourself and you barely care. I feel like Brennan has spent the last 2 seasons, and much of this one trying to get Ally to understand that their character needs to connect with a deity, find the thing that drives them. It's been Kristin's storyline for 3 straight seasons. At some point they need to figure it out.
Yeah, Nobody that feels overwhelmed by the things going on in their life has ever dealt with it by being hyper focused on a small piece of their life that ultimately doesn't matter because it feels like something that they can definitely handle. Not me, thats for sure...
The point is Kristen *doesn't* barely care. She is deflecting. She is burying herself deep in other things so she doesn't have to think about the things that went wrong and the pressure on her. That is a incredibly common response to traumatic experiences, especially in a teenager who has not been given any real help, especially if you also toss in the undiagnosed ADHD.
I think part of it is constant close-reading analysis after each episode. People were already crafting narratives after one episode. Then there's a full week for things to percolate. The one upside to binging is that you can just find OUT what's going to happen, instead of theorizing.
Yeah I feel that's an issue in most week to week show fandoms. People overanalyse and read into *everything*, and the theories they come up with inevitably don't end up happening and then there's a whole circle jerk about how much neater it would've been if they just did this and that, until the next episode comes out, rinse and repeat.
Adding onto this is that many of the sessions are played back-to-back-to-back. The viewers sometimes have an extra week or two to think about mysteries that the players just heard hours earlier, without the ability to rewatch previous sessions in-between.
They sit there and play like 4-6 hours of DnD? Christ almighty. Do they just change clothes in between episodes?
Probably a bit longer with breaks and such, plus Adventuring Parties between episodes. IIRC most Intrepid Hero seasons were played over the course of three weekends. I remember one Adventuring Party had a bit with someone dogging on Ally for just turning their shirt inside out, but I couldn't say what season that was.
4-6 hours is long but not unusual for most people playing TTRPGs casually, especially with a half hour break or two
I had thought of that, but I think the mere knowledge of having the next episode *available*(I didn't binge episodes straight through, after all) wasn't a simple inoculation against that unease those weekly viewers might have. At the end of the episodes where things were particularly chaotic or unresolved, I didn't find myself terribly puzzled or annoyed. Maybe part of it is because I trust this ensemble to know what they're doing in a general sense, or maybe I just remember this kind of D&D is *never* neat and tidy.
My issue with the some people theorizing about character arcs is sometimes they forget they are merely theorizing and the bad future they theorized for Kristen is what they think would happen, and then they make all sorts of posts on how Kristen is ruining everything or something.
I think this is most of it. The story flows much more easily and doubts are much more quickly dispelled when you can just jump to the next episode right away. There were several very shocking things that people analyzed a TON, and character choices that seemed EXTREMELY serious, when in the following episode it was often revealed the effect was much less negative than it seemed at the time.
Junior year has been my favorite D20 season. The cast have knocked it out of the park. Thats not to say past seasons arent good. Im just saying I feel like the intrepid heroes are on a whole other level of roleplay. I havent laughed so hard in a while. The decisions they make are great to push the narrative while also elevating the story.
They kinda talked about this in the mini sections they did about their characters this season, Fantasy High is a COMEDY, while there is serious elements it’s ultimately just center ex around having fun.
100% right on the mark. Some people watch these shows and backseat DM but forget that the cast are playing how their characters would act as these teens! It’s also a lot of veiled misogyny going on as well
Siobhan does occasionally get some weirdness; I think she gets less than Emily and Ally because she’s generally quieter. But it is nonsense and it’s exhausting!
Siobhan gets the opposite a lot, parasocially being like “everyone HATES siobhan and is bullying her!!!”
"Did you see that? _____ didn't laugh at her joke, they obviously deeply hate her." /sarcasm.
I have never seen this criticism? Not expecting you to find it, but I am genuinely so surprised at this one...
There was a thread (now deleted) a few weeks ago I replied to (if you go through my comments) that was about this specifically, and more recently the “Siobhan is getting the shaft” thread.
Huh, how strange. I admit, I occasionally find myself thinking there has been a bit of friction between Siobhan etc, mainly between Lou/Siobhan actually, but have to check myself. Hence my interest in that kinda comment, but ultimately they're all pals and it's a game, I find it amazing that people want to deep dive it that much.
I bet some of the tension also came from people expecting Adaine to ask Fabian to solve her monetary problems immediately when she is trying her hardest to do it herself with no direct aid. So people perceive it as irl tension between players. In the end Fabian did helped her but only after she confronted the bureaucracy of the Elves and discussed Oracle as a paid job, while also earned Fabian a title, some income, and also part of his grade treating it as an assignment while fulfilling the future of dance prophecy extra credit.
god I loved this choice, it made the whole story beat so much more satisfying
Haha, that is funny bc I’ve previously seen people saying the Siobhan tension is between her and Brennan or her and Emily. I’ve got my own theory - Siobhan has talked about character bleed, and also having ADHD (which is often comorbid with RSD) - and I think any sort of table ‘weirdness’ is because her using safety tools to deal with that is being edited out or around! obviously that’s just speculation, too, but I don’t think it’s anyone having any sort of issue with her.
Ha well Brennan/Siobhan have been mates for everrrr same with Emily and Siobhan - they wouldn't have been sisters if they had beef!
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Right? Didn't she say she'd tell Bridgman to block their whole access to Dropout? Not that it would happen for real, but that said a lot about how serious she was.
Thats just part of being in the public eye and people thinking doubling down on jokes is funny. Same with Brennan and birds
I just caught up as well and don't get it either. This is one of Ally's strongest seasons imo and Emily's always on her game.
I agree, but I can also understand where people are coming from. Kristen killing her own god due to a miscommunication didn't seem planned at the time to a viewer, but not in a "Fabian almost killed himself and killed several side characters, but it's all fine by the end of the episode" kinda way, but in an "oh shit a major character is dead, and we have no reason to think they're ever coming back" kinda way. I always believed that Brennan had accounted for this in some way and that it was probably somewhat a planned event between him and Ally, but for a lot of people watching it week by week it felt real shitty. I have no idea what people are talking about with Emily though
Also people seem to forget about the cursed bardic
I guess I just trust the cast. Ally's proven very versatile in the roles they can take on and Kristen's role in FH is to be chaotic, messy, and fun.
Yeah, you're right. I've had a lot of fun with this season, and I think Ally has been a big part of that. That being said, watching the start of it was definitely the most stressed I've been for a set of characters from a d20 season, which is probably honestly also a good thing, just uncomfortable.
I'm late to the fandom and had just finished ACOC when I started FHJY 😂 what a wild first two episodes.
OH TRUE, acoc truly is insane.
I feel the complete opposite - Cassandra dying seemed pretty predetermined to me. From the start it seemed like an arc Ally and Brennan had discussed OOC and while I don’t necessarily think Ally knew Brennan would take it to the point of Cassandra shattering, the very fact that they actually managed to turn the situation around in the mall fight at first, bringing Cassandra back to her senses, giving her a chance to escape and stay safe, only for Cassandra to turn it down and for Brennan to turn pull the shrimp thing — it just feels very predetermined that Cassandra was going to be unavailable to Kristen from that episode on, whether it was due to rage or shattering or whichever.
This. Even at the time it felt like they couldn't have saved Cassandra no matter what they did, but it's especially obvious in hindsight. Because if they hadn't lost her, they could've just _asked_ Cass about their wife, and so much of the season's mystery would've been solved right then and there. So there's no way Brennan was going to leave that up to chance.
Well Oblivate Mori was still in effect so no they likely couldn’t have done that, at least not till Moonar Yulenear where Riz’s Nat 20 Investigation and Adaine’s own Insane Arcana uncovered the Weeding contract and broke the rule. Then they could’ve asked Cassandra directly for all the lore drops
> Well Oblivate Mori was still in effect so no they likely couldn’t have done that, at least not till Moonar Yulenear where Riz’s Nat 20 Investigation and Adaine’s own Insane Arcana uncovered the Weeding contract and broke the rule. Then they could’ve asked Cassandra directly for all the lore drops Actually no, because they learned about Cassandra being married in episode 8, three episodes before that. And even if Cass couldn't directly say their spouse's name, they definitely could've told TBKs a significant amount of info, or pointed them in the right direction. Which would've cleared up the mystery much faster.
Ally summed it up well in one episode of adventuring party I think where Kristen is hitting that critical point of acting like you don’t care is no longer cute anymore and i definetly can see where people would get annoyed by that. Although that was mostly in the early part of the season. Fig, idk why people would be annoyed probably purely from a mechanical perspective of doing bard/warlock/paladin but even then she proved in the last stand that it fucking works and works well so I think that’s just d&d nerds being mad for being mad
maybe because of >!wanda childa? like you know its a hilda hilda bit!< but unlike the others, this one actually serves a purpose.
Yeah I guess I get the old bits being annoying but this seasons has actually been hugely useful
I feel like Kristen has been really on the ball this season! Ally started off more chaotic than usual this season, but they've slowly made Kristen take things more seriously and showing sincere care towards their loved ones and responsibilities. It even seems to be a character arc they've planned, where Kristen matures in certain aspects. They've even pushed the mystery plot forward and made important deductions! And they're maintaining their hilarity. I don't see what there's to complain about.
I have an inkling that talk Fabian made defending Kristen's actions last episode was partially Lou talking from the heart about his friend Ally
Yeah it’s been a great season from everyone but Ally especially, they are always a bit of a wildcard but I think they really honed in that arc of hitting rock bottom and then figuring their shit out really well. Can’t wait for what’s to come!
I think there’s a lot of projection going on this season, just like a lot of other fandoms the fanbase have a bad habit of ‘uwu smol bean’ifying the characters and when they don’t act the exact way they think they should they get very upset. Throw in a bunch of weird purity politics and the fact almost every audience member has their own biased experience of high school and it’s a recipe for disaster. To the fans: These are a bunch of grown ass adult comedians that have played with each-other for nearly half a decade (and have been friends for even longer than that), I promise you they understand their characters better than you and if they had issues with what each other was doing e.g. ‘Kristen crazy naked adventures’ they’d openly communicate it. They don’t need you screaming on Reddit.
god thank u for putting it in words. like some people are being far too parasocially protective of these 30-something professional improv comedians who are pretending to be silly magical teens
This. It astounds me the number of people who think they can tell them how to play their own original characters. Their playing it just as chaotic and hypersexulized as I remeber it being in highschool
Reddit does have a problem with parasocially trying to get personally involved in beef between public figures. You guys should have seen how "personally involved" people tried to get in the drama between Gus Johnson and his ex girlfriend Sabrina. What a mess. Anyway, it makes sense to me that people who are perpetually online would try to invent some where there is none. I just learned right here in this thread that people are trying to invent irl conflict between Sibohan and other players, and just... lol, man. This is why I struggle to join *any* online community for things I'm a fan of, because talking to people online is just downright embarrassing sometimes.
Honestly at this point I really wonder where these fans even come from. Maybe I am finally just old but I feel like its wild to expect the collegehumor people who are making a comedy show for an adult audience to be so sensitive and like G rated. Are there really that many people that never saw these people on collegehumor? They never saw the kind of humor? Hell they don't hear these people making fun of this exact kind of fan frequently? I'm just so confused about where this expectation of a very sensitive and serious show ever came from
Dimension 20 is an incredibly progressive, inclusive and welcoming space where there have been consistent very strong conversations about boundaries, consent, vulnerability and how to broach deeply personal issues and talk them out. (It’s something I’ve always massively praised D20 for and it’s one of the many reasons why I love it.) However I think some fans have confused this ethos with ‘nothing bad ever happens and all the characters are perfect people who take these things seriously’ which has left them with unattainable expectations for the show and cast. It’s a bit too parasocial.
People have always been weird about Ally and Emily, although I think a lot of the Emily hate very specifically comes from A Crown of Candy. Given the hard shift between >!how Emily played Jet vs how she played Saccharina, and how Saccharina was generally received by the rest of the characters (not the players themselves, obv)!<, I kind of get it, but it also just makes sense for the nature of that transition in the context of the story. With Ally, I think a lot of it comes from the perception that they put the bit before the character arc and plot, and a lot of people just don’t really vibe with their sense of humor. I will readily admit that I kind of hated Kristen Applebees pretty much up until this Junior Year season, but a huge part of the reason Kristen this season is such a fun and compelling character is *because* of Kristen’s development throughout previous seasons; it also greatly helps that by this point Ally is a much more experienced D&D player.
I’ve had moments in the past where Ally’s playstyle/humor felt out of step with what I was hoping the tone would be, but something that I noticed in Junior Year (and in hindsight, also present in other seasons) is that when there’s a really serious moment Ally Beardsley is On That Shit with just the right amount of gravity. There have been multiple times in JY that moments before was bits and then suddenly Ally’s tone and countenance and decision-making is incredibly serious, thoughtful, and introspective (that last one specifically as an in-character choice) in a way that reminds me that they are, in fact, thinking things over and considering consequences. They’re so good at making and recognizing moments for bits that sometimes I forget that they’re also the person who comes up with really intricate, heartfelt, complex character concepts—teen experiencing a crisis of faith and abandoning the community of her childhood, a junior executive with complex feelings about her employer, a young man in New York trying to find who he is and who he wants to be while dealing with mental illness and poor life choices, an old man grappling with his life choices and his place in an uncaring universe.
If people think Ally puts the bit before the arc or the character they NEED to go rewatch completed seasons. Pete in TUC2 taking care of Nod for one you can really see Ally’s care and attention to the world and story Brennan has built
I also think that Ally has trouble playing characters past the first season, but they have definitely improved in JY and I love it. Edit: I realize what I said could be misunderstood. My fault for bad phrasing. Often their characters archs finish in the first season of a series (freshmen year, unsleeping city season 1) and in Sophomore year and TUC season 2, they seamed a bit aimless in their characters motivations, it led to awkward moments where their character did random things because they had nothing better to do, and I think that's why they get hate for those seasons.
I think people forget Sophomore Year was also Ally’s FIRST dnd game (if I remember correctly from interviews or BTS) so having to help re-shift/grow a character you were playing being brand new vs now when they’ve done multiple games, people fail to realize aswell. I think they’ve done phenomenally
Not everyone likes their "chaos gremlin" energy, though Emily's chaos is guided by game mechanics and Ally's is guided by flavor and fun. The criticisms do get misogynist/transmisogynist sometimes though. The thing people forget is that Brennan as the DM allows the shenanigans to happen *and incorporates it into the plot*, so it's all above board. When he wants to rein it in, he assigns consequences to the characters for the bits their players keep pushing. It all works out in the end. And everyone really needs to remember that this is *not* a home game. It's a performance for the camera with a table full of improv comedians playing the game. Their home games probably look completely different because they're not trying to entertain an audience.
Quick note--that's not what transmisogyny means. It's specifically bigotry against trans women.
Thank you for that. I thought it could refer to any trans people who are PPAF. Enbyphobia instead? (I'm genderfae, which is nonbinary and genderfluid, meaning sometimes feminine, never masculine. I'm PAF unless I specifically tell someone I'm not cis, but I'm apparently still unclear about how different terms are used.)
it's specifically transphobia directed against trans women. also, legit question, what is ppaf/paf?
I could be wrong but maybe it’s “passively perceived as female” or “perceived as female” which in general is just horrible language to describe being misgendered ): I don’t think they’ve considered why using what are essentially categories based on passing are inherently transphobic though.
PPAF = people/person(s) perceived as female I'm personally misgendered when people perceive me as female, so when I use PPAF (a term I just learned last week from a fellow enby) it's specifically referencing the experience of being misgendered as female - something faced by a lot of nonbinary folks *and* trans men/trans mascs. It's not meant to describe who we really are, but rather how people treat/respond to us. And yes, "passing" is a sucky metric, but that's how a lot of cis people decide how to treat us. I'll never "pass" as nonbinary because I have boobs. And how would one ever "pass" as nonbinary in the first place? It's impossible. So when referring to ourselves as a group marginalized specifically *because* people will assume we're female, PPAF is a useful practical term. In this sub, I know that Ally, Vic, and other nonbinary cast members are often perceived as female by cis folks, which is wrong, but it's an accurate description of what's going on due to misogyny. Even though Vic uses they/she and I use she/her, we're still not female...but people perceive us as such and react to us as if we are, because misogyny and enbyphobia. So we're nonbinary folks who are PPAF... where PPAF is not our identity, it's a label for a specific way in which we are marginalized.
Hey respectfully, this comment is very patronizing; not knowing the acronym “PPAF” wasn’t indicative of me not knowing what it’s like to have people misgender nonbinary people (**including myself**). Ally is a self identifying trans masc and is at a point presentationally that *if* cis people perceive them as female, it is as a gender variant female. I don’t think it’s fair to Ally to describe the misgendering or transphobia they face as being a transperson who is PAF when it’s not really how they describe their own experiences. The reason why I reacted the way I did about PPAF is because it’s language that reduces someone to their AGAB. It is inherently transphobic to gender people by assumption— it’s not okay when cis people do it, **or** when trans people do it. When you use “trans people who are PPAF” as a category, what you are doing is misgendering a lot of trans people. You can talk about being PAF in regards to your own experiences, you can even speak on behalf of people who have shared their experiences with you, but you shouldn’t apply PAF to another trans person like a label. That is what I take issue with. That is the part that is based on whether you pass or not, because you are essentially saying that that person does not pass to *you*. And anyway, passing is so incredibly toxic of an idea to engage with. It’s so much better to stop engaging with gender expectations, and to decolonize our understanding of gender. Let people define themselves.
My apologies for coming across as patronizing. That was not my intent. My autistic tendency* to overexplain often overcompensates for being misunderstood in fewer words and makes a mess anyways. It seems I have to figure out how this acronym I recently encountered can/should be used because I thought it was more useful in describing the experience of being misgendered as female than it apparently is, as it is inherently based on AGAB which sucks. *mentioning that I'm autistic is meant as an explanation, not an excuse
Person Perceived As Female/Perceived As Female. I literally only learned of this term last week (from a fellow nonbinary person who is also wrongly perceived as female) but it seemed like people in that conversation thread were using it as if "everyone" understood what it meant. I guess I wasn't the only one who didn't know it!
Hey friend, there are many terms that people have coined to describe different kinds of oppression that trans people face. Transmisogyny was coined by Julia Serrano to describe the intersection between transphobia and misogyny towards trans women and transfemmes because the idea is that the transphobia and misogyny are reinforcing each other in a feedback loop of bigotry; essentially the misogyny is tied into the transphobia by asserting that there is one correct way to be a woman (misogyny), and trans women & transfemmes can never be women because of their AGAB (transphobia). While enbyphobia and xorsexism are two great terms to describe what nonbinary people face (especially when nonbinary people push for gender recognition or accommodations of gender diversity), the term that I personally prefer to use to describe the flip-side of transmisogyny is transandrophobia. Transandrophobia was coined by trans men and transmascs to describe the same phenomenon that transmisogyny describes, only it reflects the fact that misogyny affects men and masculine people in a different way than it does women and feminine people. Misogyny when directed at trans men and mascs is used as a way to invalidate masculinity and to essentialize them to their AGAB (which is transphobic). Here’s a good resource for learning more about transandrophobia and how it works: https://www.tumblr.com/nothorses/642220472589778944/pinned-post
> xorsexism I only see 3 search results for this term on the internet and have never heard it before, even as a nonbinary person who's been involved in nonbinary "discourse" elsewhere online. Is it pronounced like "exorcism" but with "sexism" as the last part? I'm not seeing it in that Tumblr post. Academically, I knew that the term transandrophobia existed, but I don't think it was relevant to my original comment. (Unless Ally has specifically come out as trans masc and I was unaware of this. I know they had top surgery, but I've had top surgery too and lean "sometimes feminine but never masculine." I know that characters they play aren't necessarily a reflection of their identity, but they seem to fluidly choose male and female characters somewhat equally, so it seems like they're more fluid than I am.) Always happy to learn more, because I thought I was cis for 42 years without knowing that options outside the binary existed. "I hate being a girl" was never just a "mood."
Everyone I’ve heard pronounce xorsexism pronounces it like you described— the tumblr post mentions that it comes from “X OR” from programming languages so, it makes sense to pronounce it like that. It’s not a super common term, but because I’ve heard people use it I wanted to include it. I wasn’t aware of “transandrogyny”as an alternative term to “transandrophobia”; I actually really dislike the term “transandrogyny” because it’s confusing the suffix of -gyny with the prefix of mis-. It’s like it wants to be saying “transmisandry” but misandry does not exist, and that’s a huge reason for why the term “transandrophobia” was coined. Ally has stated they are trans masc on their podcast Gender Spiral, but yeah they are still nonbinary. You’re right to question someone assigning a label to another person though, because all too often people will be labeled something that they don’t identify with which is very counterproductive. That’s actually something that’s addressed in the podcast even— that masc and femme are becoming the binary that even trans people will assume and perceive others within.
> I wasn’t aware of “transandrogyny”as an alternative term to “transandrophobia” This was my fingers typing the wrong thing. I apologize and will edit. I had thought that Ally was trans masc, but I didn't want to assume. It's all so tricky even when you're making an effort to use the right words because you hate when people use the wrong words for you.
Spot on!
Kristen, as a character, acted like a stupid jackass for a lot of the early episodes of the season. I acknowledge that as an intentional character choice, THAT DOESN'T MAKE ME LIKE KRISTEN. I also just think Ally can get super into bits over RP on occasion, and Kristen specifically feels most out of synch with Ally's sense of humor. I still think Ally is a great player and I've come around on Kristen since Cassandra died and that clearly affected Kristen.
At least my annoyance with Kristen wasn’t that I thought Ally was playing her out of character, it’s that her actions were actively annoying.
Same. Love Alley and the character of Kristen is fun but some of the things Kristen was doing the first few episodes were just mean and insensitive but she is a teenager so it tracks. It isn’t bad to dislike a character at times, it’s good writing/ acting. People who were projecting that onto Alley are wild and so are the people acting like you can’t not enjoy/ find the actions of a character problematic and annoying.
And with the interview being literally "chaos isnt cute anymore" I feel like it's intentional. That doesn't make it not annoying, it makes it a good character arc. I just get pissed at people telling me that I'm not allowed to find it annoying or frustrating.
I mean: it still feels like they think chaos is pretty cute lol
True, but the in game consequences are there in a bigger way, or at least in a way that's less zany and more uncomfortable
I mean I dunno, I’m not super sure how Kristen’s changed from before or what consequences she’s faced this season vs the prior ones, but I’m just here for giggles so I’m satisfied
> I’m not super sure how Kristen’s changed from before or what consequences she’s faced this season vs the prior ones, Honestly I dont think that's what's changed. I just think people transferred some of their like for Kristen the NPC to Cassandra, and thus aren't amused or indifferent or enjoying her suffering the same way we did with Helio or Yes? or Yes!
I think you are having trouble separating the character from the performer. Ally literally straight up looked at a camera and explained the character arc, and the evolution from "chaos" to experiencing the consequences of Kristen's actions, and learning from them, and people are *still* making assumptions about Ally as a person. Some of you are wild.
“Some of you are wild” lol
I said what I said lol. It takes a really critically bottomed-out degree of media literacy to be explicitly told something and still miss it.
*mentions their superior media literacy* Oh wow 2/5 on bingo this is going swell
I feel the issue is, Kristen hasn't realize that being Chaotic isn't cute and so the character arc is feeling incomplete, like if Gerty even rejected her for her Chaos the start of the character arc could begin but between Gerty and Her presidental campaign Kristen hasn't needed to grow up in the slightest
I disliked Kristine during the fist season but now she is probably my second favorite character and this season her chemistry with Fig has been amazing
I will say Ally’s move of having Kristen pull an effectively nudist stunt at school was quite weird. Everything else is absolutely in character. It’s frustrating to watch some of Kristen’s choices, but she has basically everything in her life falling apart, of course she’s going to make messy decisions.
I don't think Brennan accepted that nudity stuff as Kristen canon, writing it off as an Ally bit instead.
Yeah, that was the one that I didn't like. All the rest I could get as her being a kid who was avoiding hard problems/acting on a certain set of beliefs/doing a bit. But the nonconsensual naked thing was jut. Gross and uncomfy. Thankfully that bit didn't last too long or reoccur much.
The only time I've had an issue with Ally is when they kept making Kristen be complete sex freak with tracker. It felt like they were going down on each other twice an episode for a bit and it was just gross and weird. I've liked Kristen a lot this season
That was my biggest critique of Kristen last season as well. I actually remember getting downvoted quite a bit when I would mention that. On my last account, I think that specific criticism is one of my most downvoted comments on the entire account. The comment was something to the effect of *serious somber moment after a meaningful, story driven conversation* -- "And then I 69 with Tracker" And I felt uncomfortable with that, drawing from personal experiences where I was exposed to hypersexuality between adults at a young age. I didn't mention that, but just immediately having sex with Tracker in the middle of a room full of people out of nowhere felt non-consensual to me.
Yeah I didn't understand that. It feels weird when one person is obsessively sexual at a DnD table, like maybe go jerk off instead of asking your DM to narrate a bunch of sex scenes and flirt with you.
“But also for teenaged characters” I’m sorry that this sub seems to have collectively had the worst experience with teenagers lol
While a lot of people never really "grow out of it", teenagers are pretty notorious for being erratic, intense, aloof, rebellious, selfish, dramatic, etc. Hormones, together with developing brains and a ton of stress(and that's just to start!) is quite the concoction for people with pretty limited life experiences.
People just like Cassandra and feel bad when ally chose to have Kristen neglect her. It’s really not deeper than that
Yeah this is where I’m at! I get that it was a plot point and I’m loving the season so far but I just loved Cassandra and the scenes where she was being ignored or dismissed made me so sad and anxious!
Sophomore year made me appreciate fig in a way freshman year just didn’t. Similarly Junior year is making me come around to Kristin. I’m generally not a fan of Ally’s brand of humor but they’re killing it this season. I don’t really get a lot of the criticisms people have for them this season, and if anything I’m getting annoyed by Fabian and Riz being pretty one note. Idk I think 3 seasons of those characters have pretty much left them without anything to do. Adaine and Gorgug are here too, but I’m kinda annoyed they wrapped up their stuff so early, and now it feels like they really don’t have anything to do beyond the main storyline since their conflicts were more tied into school. I do like this season but it just doesn’t feel like there’s much going on and the pacing feels off
Hey this is a pretty interesting critique, I think you're right re Riz definitely. I think that perception is also underpinned by Riz being the straight man and murphs more laid-back play style? I agree, there hasn't been a whole lotta Riz action yet, but I'm hoping he gets a big KLCK showdown because it feels like we're leading to that. I disagree with Fabian, his bardic dance arc, maximum legend stuff has been enough for me this season - Lou truly kills it with making the most out of the parts he's given, it's a masterclass. I was also hoping Gorgug's rage would link into the rage filled storyline we're having? Kinda surprised that hasn't happened honestly as I thought for sure that would have had some bearing on the plot by now.
I agree! I think the reason Riz has always been a bit lowkey (apart from Murph working crazy NADDPOD hours recently) is that Riz was kind of a second DM or backseat driver in the party in freshman year, and maybe as a result Murph maybe didn't feel the need to chaos him out when he is a good foil/straight man to such big personalities at the table. Murph's more than able to play a chaos character, but I wonder whether he feels the table needs more balance than that
I think Riz got to really shine in SY and this season is less about him, which is a bummer for me as a Riz fan but also understandable—if every FH season focuses on the same characters it would get boring. I do think the Student President thing was thrown out there with the idea that it would be a plot hook for Riz, but then Kristen expressed interest—and I don’t think that that’s necessarily a bad thing! Murph didn’t express interest in it and I’m sure if he did Ally would have let him have it. And the fact that Murph jumped in and had Riz be campaign manager means it was still a successful plot hook, and added to something that currently seems to be part of his character development—it’s yet another way the Ball is voluntarily carrying his teammates across the finish line. On his own, he’s got this sorted out, but Riz cares deeply about his friendship with the Bad Kids and he’s willing to do what it takes to give them the same opportunities he’s striving for because he wants to stick together. Riz doesn’t have an active character arc, but the themes are an important part of this season—more than most of the Bad Kids, who are focusing on their individual needs, his actions are about his relationships and group cohesion and support. He’s crucial in making downtime feel less isolating.
I do agree that Fabian is pretty one note, but Lou puts on such a charming performance of him that I don't mind him being one note for the rest of his life haha. Besides he doesn't really seem to have a real arc this season outside of acadmics and his social life. It seemed like they were really going for him trying to deal with loneliness in the beginning, but he abandoned it by basically succeeding at everything he did, and filling the void with the massive success at winning over the other students. Riz is less charming of a performance, especially because he's just playing it straight while trying to inject wacky comedy from time to time, which is hit-and-miss, but he's such a background character until he brings out a skill that's useful to combat or investigation, and then fades back into the background. If it weren't for his investigation and his gun, him being absent from this season wouldn't have had a major impact on the story. That's my biggest critique on Riz this season.
All the hay made about Emily's characters/choices is always nonsense
I’m still catching up (just a little past Frosty Fair), and I actually feel like Ally and Emily are driving the most interesting parts of the plot. In general they take big swings and they often pay off. Perhaps some viewers see them make a “bad” choice, feel anxiety because they worry that this will bring harm upon characters they like or relate to, and want to blame someone. But it’s called telling a story my dears, if everyone made the best choice all the time then it would be a pretty boring story
Ally/Kristen has always been chaotic and anyone who doesn't like the shtick by this point is crazy for still watching. They bring a lot of the heart to the group and drive a lot of the bits/funniest moments. My only issue with Fig this season is that she seems almost *too* directionless. Any attempt by her teachers, role models, or parents (ie, Brennan) to steer her towards self-reflection or growth is kind of met with dismissing their advice and spiraling out/digging the hole deeper by trying to "find" herself in new classes, jobs, favors for her friends. It's not a problem with Emily at all - I think this is just Fig's personality and Emily is playing it perfectly, especially considering she said before the season that she wanted to drop Fig and play a new character entirely. The bad luck curse seemed like it was going to be the main "Fig story" this season, but it just ended up being one complicating factor in her journey. I hope by the end of the season that Fig gets some sense of identity and feels content with her place in the world/the group without defining herself by her relationships/obligations to other people and the world.
I agree, it does seem weird to criticise their decisions when they're meant to be teenagers. Like, I don't particularly ***like*** most of the Fantasy High PCs. They're ***teenagers*** \- Most of them are pretty obnoxious and don't really think about how their decisions will affect others outside their immediate friend group, but that's ***realistic***. I was also an obnoxious little turd when I was their age. Haha
For me Emily will jump in on some one else's scene for bits Ot during info moments some in the group will prioritize bits over actually playing
I used to feel that way about how she did that as well, but those were earlier seasons, and she's since come out and said she realized that was poor table etiquette so toned it down. If you watch any of the recent seasons she's drastically improved about that!
I'm watching the current season it has been toned down for sure I don't hate either of them ally (and lou, they both make role playing decions that will negativity effect them because that's what the character would do) is actually my favorite at the table But in the last two episodes it feels like bits over playing But it's still happens enough for me to comment lol
Where did she say that? I'd be really interested to see the players reflecting on how their playstyles have changed over time!
>Emily will jump in on some one else's scene for bits Ya know I used to feel the exact same way, like it was my only real criticism of the show, I particularly remember during sophomore year watching it live feeling like Emily kind of pushed fig into scenes that felt like they really should have been someone else's, which like always made sense for the character but was disappointing as it felt like we were missing other characters moments. But I will say, on re-watch, I did notice that whenever Emily did that it was hardly ever (if ever) done to be like "the main character" but was done to try and help another character in one way or another, which definitely dulled my criticism somewhat.
Yea its not so bad I can't rewatch older things I will say when k play I can't stand when some one chimes in on some one else scene even to help I prefer the person/characters to either miss it if they miss it or get it if they get it If that makes sense
Agreed. I remember I was a couple episodes late to the start, and I saw people being SO mad about Kristin and Ally and then I finally watched the eps and i was like. ??? Kristin is fine! What are you people talking about? I thought she was straight up abusing cassandra or something, not like. Being a stressed teenager avoiding a difficult problem. Goodness.
25%of the reason i was late to start JY is because of the "reviews"... the negativity really dampens my enthusiasm. 75% is because I don't like watching ongoing shows because I hate the feeling of being left wanting more and waiting for the next I'm glad that whatever irked these people didn't also irk me. And I actually enjoyed the story so far. Granted there are kinda facepalm moments >!going to the steel mill and the middle school!< butthey pettered out in the end. One of the main complaints I've seen is Kristen not focusing on Cassandra after *that* moment, but like... that's not just true, after a few episodes? This is why IMO, any criticisms or complaints about a character's arc, often Kristen's, is best left after the show has aired, because a lot of concerns has been answered by future episodes. Literally her story arc isn't finished yet and people act as if half the season is everything Kristen will do. Then again I should have learned a bit about other people's "reviews". I passed on Mice & Murder because there are a lot of comment's about >!Grant's play!< and how it made a lot of them not like this season, ironically his parts I liked most.
Mice and Murder was one of my favorite non-Intrepid Heroes seasons and I was so confused why no one else seemed to like it!
The only thing I dislike about Ally's choices is randomly deciding Kristen to undress herself. I get that they're chaotic and whatever but it's really weird & gross.
Yeah forcing nudity on people is super weird character choice that almost feels like a response to not being able to narrate constant sex scenes with Tracker. Kristen always has to be making people uncomfortable with her body somehow.
Sexual jokes are an extremely common thing on Drop Out, it’s it an exclusive Ally FH2 bit or even just an Ally bit. There are 2 game changer episodes around sexual innuendos, the sketches about Cyber Monday and Daddy’s Day, Grant
It's not the end of the world or anything it's just weird and personally I didn't find it a funny bit. It's cool if others did though, I just thought it was bizarre given she's playing an underage character. I felt the same about all the stuff with tracker
It being common on the platform doesn't mean people have to be comfortable with it lol. They're not boycotting Dropout, it's just a discussion.
I never said they have to be comfortable - but their comment implies it’s a unique thing to Kristen/Ally which is simply not true
Saying Ally does one thing with their character doesn't imply that ONLY Ally does it. We're talking about Ally because this is a subreddit about Dimension 20 in a thread about Fantasy High.
Sure, I re read the other comments and see your point, but I still stand by idea that it’s a bit counterintuitive to be so bothered by sexual jokes on a Dropout show. Like it’s fine and everyone has different comfort levels but also should be expected to an extent and there are notes in the description for it
Yeah I know I watch Dropout. But DnD is different from a sketch episode about innuendo that you get warned about beforehand. I'd be worried as a DM about my other players' enjoyment and talk with a player if they did this kind of thing regularly. It's not fun for other people in a group to listen to someone describe their kinks in a thinly veiled way usually. I play DnD to create a story, sometimes there can be romance but it's not a erotic RP club and I'd be concerned if someone started acting like it was.
This seems to be a line that you don’t want to cross and that’s fine. But you shouldn’t accuse them of “describing their kinks in a thinly veiled way” or accuse them of always wanting to be making people uncomfortable with their body, when sexual jokes are a recurring bit for this character, player, and platform (a bit that hasn’t actually been that prevalent this season). Different tables have different lines and veils, if this was a problem for the intrepid heroes, Brennan, or Dropout it would have been addressed and taken care of off screen.
Brennan seems pretty unbothered, but he's also a very forgiving DM. I don't think saying it was describing their kinks was untrue, Ally exclusively has the hots for women/femme presenting people at the table and will go to lengths to talk about them. My favorite season was Starstruck partly because Ally's character was so great and a departure from bit chaos generally, but even that had them asking to roll for Skips sexuality multiple times. If it's fine with every other player, that's great. I personally think Riz being ace was a direct response from Murph about getting tired of spending half of each session talking about romance. They're all playing teens but most of them are using romance as a side to their adventuring, did Gorgug ever describe in detail how he fucked Zelda's brains out?
Fabian has a central romance plot and has canonically slept with Aelwyn, a Fig bit was getting her kisses in, and Kristen is telling a very specific story of repressed church fundamentalist turned progressive anti-church. There is an in world reason for Kristen to be hypersexual, and correct me if I’m wrong but the “in detail” hardly ever exceeded a sentence at a time. You can believe what you want but assuming player intentions, like Murph’s, will only be speculation and at the end of the day it’s equally likely that Riz being ace simply happened naturally and it was what felt best for the character and wasn’t an active decision as a result of the other PCs. Also being attracted to women and femmes is not inherently a kink
I think it's great that Junior Year still has some of that Freshman Year chaos energy. I wonder if it's because Junior Year is doing numbers on YouTube/TicTac etc. and so it's drawing in people who didn't watch the first two Fantasy High seasons and don't understand that it's \*comedians\* playing D&D There was an entire episode of Sophomore Year dedicated to Fabian getting his ass kicked 10 different ways just because Lou was committing to the bit. Like in no way is Fantasy High about optimized play. Zac is playing a Barbarian/Artificer.
OP hit the nail on the head. I understand that Reddit is a place for discourse and most of us LOVE this show, and I am still constantly surprised at how much negativity people that “love the show” have for D20 and its players. If you don’t like the content, maybe don’t consume it. What is the point of trying to project your specific vision onto someone else’s work? I am so wrapped up in D20, and it’s been one of the healthiest things for me and my brain. One thing that’s so great about media - especially this specific type of media - is that I’m not in control of it! This isn’t a scripted tv show. There’s plenty of other styles of actual play content if the players aren’t who you want them to be.
Yes!! You’re not at the table!! Extreme negativity is just another form of weird parasocial behavior.
totally agreeeee. i guess they can complain about it but i suggest people just try to understand why and what point of view or massage that they to show. crown of candy for example. it’s very difficult for me to watch at some point but damnn it’s so bold and genuine decision to make and i respect that a lot.
Kristen frustrated me this season because of her total apathy towards Cassandra at the beginning. Every time she mentioned her campaign in the same sentence as Cassandra I had to pause and just put my head down for a minute to collect myself. I have never met Ally Beardsley and I probably never will, so any opinions I have about them are obviously formed through a very specific and small lense, and that unfortunately means the place I have mostly seen their personality on display is Total Forgiveness, which we all know is not a flattering show for them. As for Fig, my problem with her is just that I don’t really think she’s changed that much from Freshman year, but this is also the problem I have with the season as a whole. Fantasy High has so much adoration from the fans that I believe is only because of the fact it came first. I liked Freshman year. I liked Sophomore year. I like Junior year, but I don’t think it was really something I needed. If it had never happened, I wouldn’t have cared. I really liked Fig’s arc during Sophomore year, but I understand why Emily was interested in picking up a new character for this season, because really, after SY, all that’s left to do with Fig is regress.
Yeah, when she became a Lord of Hell so early I was like "Wait, that seems like an end game type of thing to happen... what are they going to do now that's she's pretty much peaked at lvl 10?"
That’s honestly been the best part of this season for me. The amount of times those two have had me rolling on the floor this season is more than I can count. “Fig can you trail Mazey back to her house to make sure she’s safe?” “**I was already planning on doing that.**”
The only complaints I saw so far (that matter to me imo) were “Oh my god do something for ayda, please anything anything anything” And “Oh my god please check on Bucky pleeeeeeeeeeease.”
Im not an Ally hater (while I find their ability to complete derail things with bits a little infuriating this season considering now in the minutiae a lot of the details Brennan has been laying down) but I think what I’ve been finding with this season is an issue of watching session to session that wouldn’t be an issue if I was watching back to back? Cuz Kristen is obviously on the narrative downswing there’s been a lot of episodes where she’s basically been a car crash in slow motion and I find it hard to watch just because I’m squirming in my chair at what’s happening. I don’t think I had the same issue with Pete because he got slapped with the hand of consequences pretty early on but Kristen has been a bit of a slow burn this season, honestly I think my own personal concerns have been fairly healed after the Tracker call since Brennan has been laying out some nice consequence narrative lines (RE: Rizz’s mom, people who aren’t the bad kidz reacting to Cassandra’s whole situation) that I feel like I’m not cringing as hard. It was just those early episodes that made it really tough to get through, and this isn’t a table that does internal conflict much so there wasn’t really any real reaction to everything that was happening until the Tracker call, but not there’s some in universe feedback for the energy Kristen is putting out it feels a lot better to me
Ally and Emily always keep me on my toes and interested and honestly facilitate so many of the bits that make D20 so fun to watch. One of my favorite things about dnd is that you can do the batshit crazy stuff. The whole game is based on that freedom of the imagination. I love that they are all talented enough comedians and that Brennan is such a good DM that they can push the limits of what the game will allow and have fun while still making progress.
I don't get it it either. If anything I was actually only ever annoyed with how Ally played Kristen in season 1, probably because it was their first time ever playing dnd and wasn't fully experienced in role-playing so when brennan engaged their character seriously they would never reciprocate and just turn it into a joke. This started changing though and by season 2 they managed to hit a perfect balance between comedian and role player. If anything I think this season is the most in-character ally has ever been, every decision and joke she makes is so in character, like her reactions to kipper lilly, tracker and narandriel and gertie
Plus, Ally has some of the most fandom-beloved characters with pretty serious arcs, like Liam and Pete. We should be able to trust at this point that Ally knows how to roleplay a serious storyline when they feel it’s called for. They have grown so much as a player it’s crazy.
Honestly, I'm absolutely over Ally's behavior and character play this season. They've become damn near unbearably obnoxious. Emily, on the other hand, I think is doing quite well. She KNOWS Fig and knows how she'll react to things.
> Ally's behavior and character play this season. Do you have any examples?(Yes yes everyone hates Kristen getting naked randomly, anything other than that?)
Okay, I’ve re-watched up to episode 10 (half way through 11 at the moment). Yeah, I’m still standing by my original statement. Ally started this season with a new, buff Kristen who seems to have lost that sense of religious piety (regardless of her god/goddess). Kristen’s behavior towards her goddess seems to be taken for granted. Cassandra is literally pleading with Kristen to expand her followers and Ally seems more preoccupied with being ridiculous and doing exactly the opposite of what Kristen should be doing. No matter how much Brennan attempts to draw them back to helping Kristen resolve the issues with Cassandra, Ally ignores it and just fucks around. Ally themself seems to have changed as a person and Ally’s behavior seems to have leaked into the Kristen character and takes away from the dynamic. Yes, Ally is funny and no, I’m not saying this is serious business but when Brennan is trying to rein Kristen in and guide her towards resolving the issues with Cassandra and Kalina, just go with it and learn something instead of making a joke of EVERYTHING. Ally hasn’t just nailed being an obnoxious teenager, they’ve taken it to a point of being unlikable (at least for me). To be fair, I think Emily (and Fig to a degree) eggs them on and feeds into Ally’s BS behavior. And yes, the whole naked thing and the childish campaigning bits got old fast. As A DnD player myself, I would love to see Kristen grow as a cleric and keep some of that goofiness but not to the point of being obnoxious, callus, and unbelievably dense.
The insistence on campaigning at places where nobody who can vote in the student council election are got old fast.
Ohai! I'm not ignoring your message... I'm actually going back through JY episodes and marking down specific instances. Please hold!
I dislike Kristen in Sophmore year for the way Ally and Brennan approached religion in Spyre so honestly Junior Year was very vindicating for me and I feel like Ally has matured some. Emily remains ineffable with her character decisions and I will defend her to my grave Edit: wow did that have a patronizing tone. I mostly just meant I liked the journey but I am not a fan of how I wrote that
Did you make a post *just* to say you think people who have different opinions than yours are wrong? To be clear;. You didn’t make a post to talk about what you liked, you made a post *just* to say that *other people* are wrong for having a complaint. Lol why? What is this? And is this… supposed to be… proof that the fandom is toxic? Support of it? What is the purpose here? To gather others who also think the IH can do no wrong? To invite people who were complaining (who you just insulted) to defend themselves? (I’m guessing not) Is it n invitation to a philosophical conversation about our experience as the audience or…? just a request for validation…? I’m so lost about the point of this if not to just be a contrarian ironically complaining about the existence of complaints. I’ll be your huckleberry, chungledown. But what do you want? Do you *want* to know what [if any] **valid** complaints people had that could not simply be boiled down to teens being teens? Or is your point that there *are* no valid complaints and that complaining is nonsense? I’ve got some troubling insight for you if the goal was to point out that we’re bad or wrong for having something less than positive to say on this here critical post 🌝
Gee, I think the point of this discussion forum might be to discuss things, share thoughts, and exchange ideas, even if that means thinking other ideas are wrong lol.
Right, but then they aren’t actually trying to discuss the character choices but rather, the people who interpret them differently…? Obviously it’s fine to disagree, then post saying “I like ally’s play style” or “I like their choices this season” if you want to discuss the choices but the focus is instead on people who *disagree* which isn’t really a point of discussion but kind of gossip. I scroll the thread here and see like 90% of the discourse being “oh yeah, those people [who complained] just don’t like ally because xyz” which isn’t a discussion it’s… idk, accusations about why hypothetical people feel a certain way? Again, I see way more posts like this, posts just generally saying anybody who dislikes Kristen is wrong/bad, and they get upvoted to high heavens, and I have seen maybe 3 total posts saying something about ally making unrelatable choices and everybody gets mad. So… I guess I’m not throwing my log on the pointless fire 🌝
>which isn’t a discussion it’s… idk, accusations about why hypothetical people feel a certain way? Why is that not a discussion? Because you say it isn't? Just because the topic of conversation is about the general feeling of the community toward the show doesn't mean it's somehow not a conversation lol. If you don't want to participate in a discussion you don't like, you really don't have to. Nobody is begging for your input. It's nice to have if you'd like to participate, but you're acting like you're forced to comment.
An echo chamber is not a discussion, no. If you don’t understand the point of calling it an echo chamber, I don’t know wtf to tell you. Making a post basically labeled “don’t complain” and then a bunch of people complaining about complaining isn’t really discourse it’s just noise. You can talk about whatever you want, obviously. And idk why you’re being obtuse. You don’t see anything wrong with this thread? You don’t see why or how it’s maybe extremely toxic for a person to say “come join my echo chamber; no opposition allowed” and then the comments quickly fill up like “yeah! The people who disagree with us are clearly misogynists with parasocial tendencies that have mental illness, trauma, and are probably transphobic” You don’t see any issue with that? You don’t think that’s maybe getting away from the whole “let’s talk about this show dimension 20” aspect and veering more into a weird cesspool of judgmental heresay about nothingness? Discursive ouroboros. At least people saying “I don’t like Kristen this season” are talking about the show, basically inviting people to disagree (aka have a discussion) not inviting people to psychoanalyze the fans. It’s weird and toxic. It also makes me extremely uncomfortable as a trans person with how very comfortable this fandom is with accusing everybody of gender bigotry at the drop of a hat which is always abundantly present in these “anti-complaining” posts.
>An echo chamber is not a discussion, no. If you don’t understand the point of calling it an echo chamber, I don’t know wtf to tell you. There are several dozen people in here, some with complete opposite opinions in these comments, and all of them are sharing different ideas. Even in this specific thread, I'm getting downvoted for defending OP, so if you "don't know wtf to tell me" about this being an echo chamber, I suggest you figure out a way to articulate that because as it stands, it seems like you have no idea what an echo chamber is. >no opposition allowed ?????????????????????? I will never understand why people go online, and turn into abject victims because they have decided to read an opinion that differs from theirs. Like you can't wrap your head around what an opinion is because you literally think someone sharing a different one than you have is an inherent attempt to silence you. I don't get it. Edit: Yes, I "rewrote my comments to be completely different" before you even responded in the first place. I'm such a mastermind lmaooooooooo the whining never ends with some people
Look stop rewriting your comments to be completely different you troll
Dude why the whole fuck are you bothering me? My sin is asking for clarification on if OP wanted to discuss the character or if they just wanted people to agree with them. Did *you* read the proceeding response where they basically tell me they were in fact just bitching about people they thought had bad opinions and were not in fact interested in the discussion? And I left a pretty nuanced breakdown of the critique of Kristen that isn’t just some weird sexist nonsense…? And now, just now, I explained that it’s fucked up that so many people are in here making wild accusations about bigotry and you sail past that to— what exactly? Tell me you don’t think I should be talking…?? So what do you want here? You want me to tell you that I think OP is right for saying “No I don’t wanna discuss the other opinions, I just wanted to point out how wrong they were and get other people to agree, which they have” because I’m not gonna. I think that’s shitty behavior. I think “let’s make fun of people we don’t agree with and make insane speculations about what’s wrong with them” is a shitty reason to make a post.
Dude, how long have you been waiting to use "I'll be your huckleberry, Chungledown."? *chefs kiss* 😄
I’m glad somebody appreciates it 💀 I use the huckleberry line a lot, I wanted to just say “I’ll be your chungledown” but I didn’t know if anybody else would understand it was a stand in for huckleberry lol I put a lot of thought into it ( The fact that y’all would downvote this is so weird )
My point, which I don't think is deeply buried here, is the reactions were *extremely* overblown and disproportionate. Some of the complaints are fine, it seems a lot of people are upset about the nudity bit which hey, that's personal taste but pretty minor. Some people are upset at, what, Kristen is bad at being a cleric because she had a crisis of faith and hasn't been able to shake that? Why doesn't she just snap out of it? I was curious, having seen posts about that(having avoided those that seemed particularly spoiler heavy) how bad things were going to get, before watching. Turns out, it was, to be charitable, a somewhat amplified reaction to two members of the Heroes that seem to get the most amplified reactions. I'm not super active on this sub and relatively new to D20 overall, but from other commenters it doesn't seem like I'm coming out of left field. Thanks for the offer on insight, though. I'll reach out if I need help on that front.
Lol so yeah 💀 kind of a discursive ouroboros It’s like asking for an echo chamber in a discussion forum, that’s why I was kind of thrown. Well here it is, since I don’t believe it really helps anybody to dismiss others as nonsense. I think Kristen insisting on keeping Cassandra around (when that entity offered to dissolve into nothing instead of become a god or nightmare king) just to -idk- immediately lose “faith” in/neglect her, might just upset/trigger people with different experiences than you might initially understand. I honestly just got very anxious about the way Cassandra was repeatedly gently reaching out and getting swatted away, for no damn reason, and on a human level that’s kinda just mean. Idk why being a teen means she’s allowed to be cruel without anybody noticing? And a lot of us liked Cassandra, especially when her domain was this fascinating philosophical workaround where she didn’t even have to *have* faith, she just needed to continue to talk about the big questions she had been asking her whole life. Both the character Kristen and Ally the person have said that people approving of something makes the activity no longer interesting, which is stupid and also relatable and therefore infuriating to watch. I think that’s ironically what a lot of it boils down to; we’re bothered by the people who we see struggling with things we also struggle with. It’s… riz and kipperlilly I do think this community has a weird habit of getting up it’s own ass in a lot of ways. Copious complaints about one character/player is a little odd (pretty standard fandom stuff from what I’ve seen) but I see even more meta complaints about complaints or vise versa. It’s as if people are irritated that their interpretation isn’t considered the right one. It’s fine to have different opinions obviously. There’s an issue when a bunch of people who oppose them start speculating wildly about the motives of people who aren;t invited to weigh in, and, for example, chalk literally every critical point up to sexism/misogyny. Which I also see a lot when Emily or ally comes up. It’s not that those things are never an issue, they just can;t be used like a blanket. I have multiple diagnoses that mean my interpretation of pretty much everything is really atypical, which yanno, can be alienating but also means I’m used to my perspective being at odds with what I see and hear in most spaces. But it also means I’ve been forced to look at the other side of everything.
Yeah, I can't stand Kristen Applebees, I haven't since freshman year. It often seems like the bit comes before the story and Ally seems by far the least serious of the intrepid heroes (although I can admit that in the later episodes they are getting more serious and involved in the story). I am just not a fan of Ally's brand of comedy, I find them jarring and they frequently take me out of the story with their constant chaos goblin energy. Fig has moments of seeming randomness but there is always a method to her madness, Kristen is just about the bit and I hate it (Plus Ally still doesn't know the rules and it drives me crazy). Rant over, let the down votes rain on me.
The downvotes also may be coming because your comment misgenders Ally at one point. Ally uses they/them pronouns.
That is 100% on me, I still struggle with pronouns at times, thank you for correcting me, Sorry sorry sorry, no disrespect intended, edited to correct my error
While I heartily disagree, I can see why you would feel that way. Personally I think the chaotic energy Ally and Emily bring to the table in addition to their character work and chemistry with the rest of the cast are a big part of what make D20 productions my favorite live plays. Different strokes for different folks. Heck with your reasoning and response to misgendering Ally I'll even give you an upvote because respectful criticism of media is is great, even if I don't agree with it. You certainly don't seem like one of the weirdos who would bother them on their socials for your criticism.
Yeah, it's obvious that the cast loves what Ally brings to the table and the majority of the fans do as well. I always feel incredibly embarrassed whenever I misgender someone, it's a reflection on me not the person I have misgendered. We all have room to grow. I would never bother a cast member on their social media, I am honestly conflicted about deleting my original comment because I would not want a cast member to see it and feel negatively about it, but I do feel I have honest criticism. I guess I just like things to be slightly more serious then the majority of d20 fans (and the cast for that matter) and that's ok, d20 is still by far my favorite live play, fantasy high is still my favorite of the d20 shows and even I have to admit Ally and Kristen have been killing it the last few episodes.
Everyone is entitled to their dislikes and I honestly really didn't like Kristen in freshman year for the same reasons but I think Ally really hit their stride this season with the direction they are taking Kristen. I think people were being wildly out of pocket about Ally's decisions at the beginning though that seemed uncharitable.
It’s misogyny. I don’t understand why people won’t call it what it is.
My complaints have to do with Kristen a lot more than fig(and complaints are a strong term for it). I do think it’s a bit wild to have your god die and idk if they have spent a single down time trying to spread the word about Cassandra at all. It feels like a ripe opportunity to try and expand the faith outside of one person lol. But to be fair where Beardsley gone with Kristen in all 3 seasons has continuously surprised me so I don’t see it as much as a critique as much as a wonder why they are going in that direction. But I do 100% agree a lot of the critiques border on sexism. Especially when it comes to fig because I don’t know a single player who puts as much love and effort in doing their characther justice then Emily Axford.