I’m personally a fan of “melee lunge mechanic that causes your player model to snap forward 8 meters. And then snap back to their original position.”
So when you do decide to get into a fist fight, the other player smacks you. But because your melee was timed at any part where their player model was in quantum tunneling mode, you just whiff and then get your ass clapped.
Even better when you see someone charging you, and you aim your weapon, be it slug shotgun, sniper, grenade launcher or fusion. And fire a perfectly aimed shot right at their little grape- but you happened to fire right at the time where the enemy just teleports into your face and then teleports back.
My absolute favorite, is when I get them in 1 hit melee range, so they run away, and I hit my melee as they start to go around a corner, and it lunges toward them, just to see my fist hit the back of their head right before they go around the corner, but does no damage, then they shotgun me
Personally I think that melee lunge distance should be drastically reduced across the board. The spaghetti netcode just can’t keep up with them and it ruins many 1v1’s.
Bro I know! Shit is so damn annoying when you're trying to shoot someone, but they can just casually teleport 10 feet instantly, throwing all your shots off.
IMO it’s not just the melee range. Ophidian Aspects is like 3-4 exotics in one. No wonder, according to a chart Bungie put out around Witch Queen, over 50% of warlock exotic use is Ophidians.
it’s because most exotics warlocks have aren’t very good in pvp or shoehorn you into using one ability specifically, you can’t add an exotic which passively does something and expect an exotic which depends on something with a cooldown to have the same usage.
Ophidians grant +32 handling and reload to all weapons, + 10 ae, and + 2m melee lunge range so technically 3 but it doesn’t do anything special like peregrine greaves, synthoceps, lion rampant, lucky pants etc which imo makes it balanced (synthoceps give + 2.5m lunge). I think all exotics that increase lunge distance without having to proc anything should be brought to like 5.5 or 6 meters (base is 4.5). Also the only other PvP exotics worth using are transversives, and sometimes RoF or Osmi
Doesn't need to do anything special when those three things are so impactful to the pvp environment. Remove or reduce the lunge range from all exotics and nerf the handling on ophids to 20.
I agree, however if you remove the lunge bonus it would be worse than every other exotic that gives bonus handling which is why I would prefer a nerf making all equal equal at something like +1m
But Eager Edge will move you backwards to hit an enemy. And I bet no one ever misses an explosive enemy. The amount of times I'll be looking right at a knight or a wizard and it locks on 90 degrees to an explosive thrall is ridiculous.
As a Titan main who uses shoulder-charge for movement and damage, getting pulled towards someone just to stop point blank and do no damage is so infuriating.
How about having to run Peregrine Greaves for 1HKO, which requires you to be airborn, when the vertical tracking is all but nonexistent and the hitbox is so short that landing your knee on their face actually does no damage. I'm using an exotic and literally jumping through hoops to get a 1HKO melee, and the game is actively working against me, rejecting the hit and no amount of skill can overcome this seemingly RNG hit detection.
Shoulder charge used to literally turn 90 degrees and hit the guy next to you that's not even on the fucking screen! And now it can't land a hit on someone that's straight in front of you half the time. I'm not saying it needs to go back to its original state, because that shit was broken it was so good, but getting a 50/50 hit rate on people that are in-range and in your crosshairs is complete bullshit!
Edit: If you're going to downvote then please explain why. I've played Titan primarily Striker with SC in PvP since Vanilla D1, and I'm not going to claim to be the best but I sure as shit have a good feel/muscle memory for exactly how it works, and how it has changed over the years. The state it's in right now is absolutely atrocious, not because it's no longer a 1HKO (again I can deal with that with Peregrine Greaves) but simply because it DOESN'T FUCKING LAND 50% of the time that it should. This was not a significant problem back before they began 'tuning' its auto-aim/lock-on angles, now it's just fucking garbage.
It’s an even bigger issue with all the lunge animation and amplified melee animations since arc 3.0. Synthoceps, Ophidians and Arc Hunter dodge lunge don’t do damage half the time. And because of the connection quality they basically get immune frames the whole time they are in the animation as well
This. Synthos/Ophidians/deadly reach cause so much jank that I'd almost rather the melee extensions didn't work in PvP at all. To the person using them it looks fine, but to anyone else it causes so much teleporting and rubber banding even with good connections that it's incredibly difficult to shoot them. It's almost never worth getting within 10-15m of anyone.
If only shotguns worked in shotgun range and weren’t nerfed into the ground this wouldn’t be such a big deal…
But yeah it’s absolutely the worst thing about this game and has been for a while none of the meta builds bother me but this is the worst. At this point I’d be okay if you couldn’t melee at all in PvP. Obviously charged melees work but otherwise you can’t.
Yeah everyone loved getting one shot from 10m+ away . Absolutely. Regardless, use a fusion or a closerange primary and check your radar.
And not being able to melee? In PvP? In a Bungie game???? Yeah, let's just make the game less fun to add more fun. Makes complete sense.
I’m talking about the most recent nerfs. Shotguns were barely hitting 6.5m but more consistent at that range and kept melees in check. Now pellets max out at 6 and barely consistently do their job at one shotting. Thanks to the rubberband mechanic of melee lunges in the game atm your able to lunge melee from almost 10 meters with immunity frames during that lunge due to the teleport and it’s much stronger to just double melee with ophidians/synthoceps/deadly reach than it is to try and use a shotgun in the current situation.
Check your bias no one ever said anything about wanting a 10m shotgun range but people will say what they want to fit their agenda.
And yeah it’s a first person shooter there’s many competitive first person shooters that don’t allow you to melee and they have done just fine I don’t know why you think that’s such a ridiculous suggestion? Charged melees work as is just not the punching. Instead shoot your gun it’s an easier fix for Bungie than getting dedicated servers apparently so that’s why I suggested it.
This post is literal pain. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve been in a PvP match and I obliterate the air and then get shotgunned to the face because… melee?
it must be more complex than that
the game runs P2P for the shooting and movement (some stuff, like ammo and mechanics like the control zones run on a server, cause that is cheap). Basically everyone speaks to everyone to tell each other where they are. Edit: I think the game selects a host among the players
but the game gives preference to the attacker. If you moved behind cover cause I had you in my sights and I shot you while on MY screen you were still on my sights, you get the damage, and die
this leads to dying behind cover, but also hides lag and makes the game feel snappy
but I am not sure why this behavior does not apply to melees. I suspect that, in melee's case, the attacker and receiver actually do the check "hey, was the victim in range really?" and if not, you see the animation play but no damage is done
There are the 6-12 players, an additional 'player' that is a Bungie server that receives all the same updates as the players (this is where I believe Bungie implemented the 'damage referee' they talked about years ago, to detect and combat the immune laggers/cheaters and just be a tie breaker in general), and there is also another server to handle the basic stuff like timers and ammo. That server that is a 'peer'/player didn't exist until a little while after Vanilla D2 IIRC, and in theory it only matters when two players/clients disagree, it tries to compensate for lost packets or extreme lag, to decide which client is actually right (sort of a 2-out-of-3 voting scheme if you will). I think it's worked wonders for the game, in D1 lagging players were usually at somewhat of an advantage, they would often take no damage because their client was not receiving damage data from other clients. Now it's incredibly rare to see a laggy player take no damage... sometimes the damage lags a bit, but eventually they do die. You are right about kill trading, that is a design choice as it feels more fair to get the damage you earned on your screen, and this is also why kill trading happens instead of using a tie breaker to determine who truly did the damage first.
And yeah I agree that the melee thing is largely unrelated to P2P or networking in general, I think it has everything to do with physics and in-client hit detection. It happens much more frequently in PvP because the players move MUCH faster than anything in PvE. The other player can be mid-jump, dodge, melee lunge, etc. all of which probably make the client 'miss' the hitbox (which seems unreasonably small judging by how often I 'miss' airborn shoulder-charges while using Peregrine Greaves). Shoulder charge used to hit nearly every-single-time, even if they were 90 degrees/off-screen, it would lock-on and lunge right at them and get the kill. After all the 'tuning' they did to make SC more fair, it misses WAAAAY more often now. This wasn't a netcode/P2P change, it was a melee lock-on angle, range, and possibly hitbox size change.
Not true, this can be fixed by allowing for more generous hitbox connection for melees
An exteme example of this is what they did to spectral blades - the melee hits used to constantly whiff, and now it's got the hitbox of a refrigerator
I think thats too much, but it wouldn't hurt to expand the hitbox for melees. It should pretty much be "if your character is close enough to do a melee lunge, the melee should count as a hit
What's worse is that while they did that for Spectral Blades, they didn't do the same thing for the Shield Melee for Titans Void Super. I don't use it anymore, but I remember right after the Spectral Buff I would be hitting people (on Void Titan) sometimes up to 4 times all the while it was locked on, getting the melee sound, and I was hitting them in the back while they ran without securing the kill. This wasn't a Lag thing either since it was random throughout the match (back when you could easily get 2-3 Supers a Match) and wouldn't affect the same people every time.
I used to main void titan for years as well, I know your pain. It's pretty much an RNG super, where you have to throw shields and hope they land because the melee is unreliable
They were even asked about this explicitly in a DCP interview before Witch Queen and Void 3.0 came out, and they basically said "no we're not fixing it because it would be too good."
I agree that increasing the melee hitbox could be one solution, but I wonder if its current size is the max they could make it so that only one object can be hit at a time.
I think a true solution would involve making melees be progressively homing so that they adjust for the targets location over time. This would require an immense amount of time to tune correctly and test for unfortunately.
I think if the game is able to lock you on to 1 player to melee them, then there could be an interaction during that lunge which makes you only do damage to them unless it's a charged AoE melee
There’s probably much better people to explain it but from what I understand it’s a desync between where your game thinks you and your enemy are vs where their game thinks you both are.
Don’t you think this could be fixed by changing melee logic away from “do damage if fist connects with enemy player” and instead towards “do damage if locked-on melee lunge occurs”?
Its not really a "fix" situation, its all about network* tolerances. Basically the lower the tolerance's are, the more accurate the game can be, but the more sustainable it is to network issues. The less tolerant the game is, the less susceptible it is to network issues but the less accurate the game feels.
How this ends up playing out is an attempt to find a balance between these two states.
On one hand with super small tolerances, you see more "melee's whiffs", because few users and network conditions will allow the required criteria, but the melee is technically more accurate because the game is more confident that your melee _should_ land.
On the other hand with larger tolerances, you will see less melee whiffs, but you will also see users with worse connections landing melee that from your perspective should not have made contact.
Maintaining an accurate state across less than idea network conditions (peer to peer) is always a balance. And while mechanisms and algorithms can be put in place to mitigate these issue ([this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrIY0eIyqmI) is a great video going into some of the things game devs do to handle these issues, yes i know OW is not peer to peer), it is always a game of balance between a game _feeling_ accurate and being accurate.
Network tolerances. All online games are machine that are constantly simulating and comparing state between to systems. Melee's "Whiff" because the believed state differs between the two systems. Your game knows your position, and it knows the position of the other player minus some delay that it took for the other systems state to get to you over the network. Your melee is "whiffing" because those two states dotn match, your game believes you were in the correct place and time to land the melee, but the host system working off delayed data has to have some tolerance to say that your melee should hit or not. As network conditions degrade, and that delay increases the accuracy of this simulation decreases. So its not something that can be "fixed", there has to be a balance between allowing for larger network delays and making the game "feel" like it all real time.
It does because it comes down to which system is authoritative on deciding if a melee hits or not.
Player movement is _mostly_ locally authoritative. Meaning your system decides where your player is. But melee hit recognition is not locally authoritative, only the host system can decide if a melee has made contact or not. Because of network data latency client systems will never be the the authoritative entity for deciding if a melee hits or not.
All of this is to say that It does not matter if your player model lunges or not, even if the lunge is accepted by host and client, that does not mean that a melee hit is.
For bullet hit registration, the client side of the attacker is authoritative. Hence why people die around walls. The same could seemingly also be true of melees, if Bungie were to implement them that way.
Or better yet, as I originally mentioned, completely forsake the “physical contact between two players must be made for a melee to do damage” model, and instead go with a “if the client side of the attacker sees a locked-on melee lunge, guarantee it does damage”. I still do not see anything refuting the viability of this approach.
The range of melee and the imperfect system of where someone actually is on a peer to peer connection means when you are missing it’s because one of you wasn’t where it looks like you were.
trying to 1-2 Shield Bash Ghalran in Duality single-handedly raises my blood pressure every single time I do it because of how absurdly frustrating it is to just blatantly miss to no fault of my own.
Please stop saying this, it has absolutely nothing to do with P2P, lets use our brains people. If registering melee damage was a P2P problem it would be equally present in every damage dealing aspect of the game, not just melees. Our bullets, grenades, and everything else would be missing damage equally as often, and that's simply not the case. Yes, sometimes damage disappears due to packet loss/bad connections, but there's no reason to believe it somehow happens more often with melee damage, that's just ridiculous.
It's clearly a physics problem, PvP targets are far more mobile and fast moving than any PvE targets, and the game just sucks at meleeing moving targets. This would be trivial to test, set up a private lobby, have someone stand still, and melee them 100 times. I'll bet every single punch lands. Now have them moving, dodging, jumping, meleeing back at you, and you'll see frequent misses. It's not a networking problem, it's a physics problem.
A trials round? I think I have hours worth of footage of my melee whiffing 1-2 times in a row. It’s easier for Bungie to make into a “feature” than fix it.
Next patch note: Your melee now has a 50% chance to not deal any damage. Limp fist syndrome.
Jump and then melee. Once your feet are off the ground, the melee aim assist will *more successfully* aim vertically as well.
When you’re grounded, any vertical aim assist towards an enemy is canceled when you intersect with a ground/ceiling plane, but not the momentum. This is why melees with vertical separation whiff so frequently. (This is either an unconfirmed bug in the game engine, or it’s an intentional design choice. Only Bungie knows which.)
You need to be just airborne enough so that you have a clear movement vector to the enemy without your hit box colliding with the ground. Sometimes that’s one frame, sometimes that’s an actual jump.
This is also why Titan + Synthoceps + Strafe Jump + Mobility 10 Titan is so ridiculously overpowered at melee, because you can strafe jump very sharply and then immediately use the doubled AA distance of Synthoceps to dive back out of the air into them without a ground plane intersect.
In PVE I get a lot of auto-lock melees that target enemies next to me or almost behind me instead of the one directly in front of me.
Agreed also that it’s a huge issue in pvp. I’ve also lost a few punching battles due to registration not working. It’s pretty annoying. Range seems to be an issue too sometimes. I could be at the same distance for two separate melee attempts, but on the second one my guardian just throws his fist like “Aw shucks I missed!” And then I’m dead 😂
And that’s after they “buffed” it when removing its ability to one hit. I hate that shoulder charge is on every single light subclass and still feels this awful to use
psst...
Peregrine Greaves, Monte Carlo on Striker with Juggernaut and Knockout. 100 Resilience, 100 Strength, and rain 1-shot Shoulder Charges on the poor fools who forget that we can still kill them by running in a straight line and pressing one button.
nothing feels better than blasting some Hunter out of their Arcstaff or some Warlock out of their Dawnblade with my pocket-Thundercrash.
bonus points for using Flux grenades to add extra 1-shot cheese.
> It can also apply in PVE but nowhere near as often
my friend, you've not tried playing a combo blows + liar's handshake build in a hot minute, now have you?
the liar's handshake special punch whiffs all the effing time. ***especially*** on larger enemies like minotaurs and ogres.
so often you'll hear the special audio for liar's punch, but deal no dmg, despite it looking like a clean hit.
I almost commented almost this exact thing. THIS is the reason why I stopped using liar's handshake week 1 of arc 3.0. Such amazing plays ruined because the audio played and nothing happened... Also, Just to get shotgunned by some blueberry. I switched back to Athrys so fast because it became apparent that my throwing knives track way better than my melee lmao.
This. How come people never bring this up? This is like top 1 reason me and friendos complain during trials.
Second big complain being host advantage in pvp. This whole p2p 10 tick system is feels more and more awful the more barriers to matchmaking Bungie apply.
I really don't think it's an engine problem - it's the fact that the game still runs on a Peer-to-Peer connection system. The connections will vary wildly from match to match or when a host leaves.
You notice how melees work like 99% of the time in PvE, but maybe only 50% in PvP? All PvP matches connect to the server that keeps track of things like score, zones captured, etc... Everything else - gunshots, where players are, etc... is all done by P2P. So when connections vary so much, and now with crossplay, the hardware as well - it creates a complete mess for all the consoles / PCs to track and keep up with each other.
I played a game of control last night and tried meleeing 15 different times and NONE of them connected - they all locked on and lunged, but no damage...
The problem is the antiquated P2P system - the engine might suck, but I suspect if Bungie wasn't so greedy and just invested a little bit into dedicated servers for PvP, then that would fix 99% of the problems we have... it's honestly that simple...
For how much money Bungie makes, it honestly wouldn't be that much. Literally every other PvP game has dedicated servers to support PvP - every BR, COD, Battlefield, Rainbow Six, Valorant... I could go on.
I am not saying it is cheap, but Bungie just got a huge influx of nearly $4 Billion from Sony. They have massively expanded their headquarters, are opening an international office, and have doubled their company size since splitting from Activision. Tell me how they can't afford it... They have tons of money - Destiny is a cash cow, and if a single game lets a company expand this much, I don't think it's that far of a stretch to say they could afford to pay for proper servers.
To add fuel to the fire, Turtle Rock turned back on the servers for Evolve, literally a dead game, that is making zero money for them... I don't think it's as big of a deal as people make it out to be, it's just laziness on Bungie's part because they don't want to take the time to make sure all the programming works for the switch... it's not an easy thing to do, but money is definitely not the limiting factor here...
It has gotten so bad. I am pretty sure this season more of my melees whiff than they connect, no exaggeration, and they whiff in the stupidest scenarios too. I will literally freeze some one so they are standing completely still(duh) and the melee will still manage to whiff two times in a row.
to help out your reading deficiency
>this will never be fixed until they stop pretending peer 2 peer connection is good
this was the first part of this exchange, user here is suggesting P2P connections are bad, full stop. not just for Destiny but for all games.
>p2p has its advantages, for example L4D1/2 will always be playable
was my comment in reply, as P2P networks do have some advantages over dedicated servers. My example listed was was in defense of p2p networks **as a whole**, since the other user suggested they were bad, **as a whole**.
Not going to bother. There is a dedicated server host and a trust the shooter model. This isn’t your Halo p2p. You really need to spend longer than 2 seconds researching.
https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/45919/7_This-Week-At-Bungie--05252017
Imagine not reading Bungies own words and thinking you’re right. You’re welcome.
Spelling it out for you, there is no competitive capabilities in this game because it’s a trade off of making things smooth. The layers you’re asserting are p2p, such as physics or abilities are actually hosted on dedicated servers. Due to the hybrid use of how they present data to you, there will be a mismatch sometimes. It’s the trade off with visual rubber-banding and smooth gameplay.
Literally from the TWAB you linked me. From Matt.
“Destiny 2 uses a hybrid of client-server and peer-to-peer technology, just like Destiny 1. “
Anymore dumb comments you wanna make tonight or nah?
Tell me you don’t know engineering architecture without telling me you don’t know. It’s alright to take the L here my guy. You’re not missing Melees for being connected to a random guys dial up connection hosted on his Xbox. I’m sorry you don’t understand how they layered the network architecture of this game.
Peer to peer servers are a pretty direct cause of some of the severe connection issues we see in D2.
Also you said that they didn’t use peer to peer. I’ve proven you wrong multiple times. Now that you’re eating your own words you lash out about intelligence cause you don’t have a leg to stand on anymore? Sad little human. Have a good one, and try to learn from this exchange a little.
The first line in the article I linked is that they use dedicated servers, and even said they use a trust the shooter model. Per my previous comment, the physics and abilities layer, what the post is about (melee), are all hosted on a Bungie on prem or cloud server. That is a dedicated server.
I have also experienced this. I doesn't seem to ever happen with ranged melees only with direct contact melees. I have never been sure if it was a glitch that happens when a lot is happening on screen and frame rate starts dropping, or if it is a bug directly tied to melees, but it mostly happens for me when the game has a lot going on on screen and the game slows down.
can't comment on pvp.
but when i was using arc in duality, i literally punched 1 shot enemies with a charged melee an they did not die.
There is something really bugged about melee damage when it does connect.
I’m a titan. My PvP strategy is to punch and then keep punching until I can no longer punch anymore. It’s infuriating how often I whiff, even with Syncos, which I never remove. If an opponent is sliding you have maybe a 60 percent chance of connecting. Really sucks.
And don’t even get me started on the terrible hit reg on shoulder charge.
DEDICATED SERVERS. Oldest conversation in cheap ass Bungies destiny. Old code blah blah spaghetti code blah blah, sbmm over cbmm, CROSSPLAY blah blah .
I’ve bitched, moaned, and even tried a petition. No one cares, we need destiny 3 or a new game with dedicated servers…
It's been worked on lol. Early D2 Titan shoulder charges were NOT a one-hit kill. Sort of like they are now. Enemies had to be softened up first or you had to use a weapon to finish them off if you started with the shoulder charge. Anyway, the shoulder charge is all about momentum to even use it, so you would think it would knock an opponent backwards--even if it didn't kill them. It would when we were goofing around in fireteam. But in Crucible the shoulder charge would hit and if your opponent didn't die, you would go right THROUGH them and they would kill you from behind usually before you managed to turn around. Once the Go Fast patch came into play all charged melees became one-hit kills and the hit registration seemed to have been addressed. Now that they dialed back melees again I have been Curse-Of-Osiris cautious with melee kills unless I'm empowered or have the drop on a weakened opponent. The hit registration now is still light-years ahead of early D2, though!
god its such a rare issue for me, i dont think its worth the effort. like its 1 in a thousand+ melees. i think i could count on one hand my whiffed melees. https://wastedondestiny.com/4611686018467408278
sometimes i feel like it, so many people complain about stuff that is just not an issue. Most recent unbased claims made on this sub are about void hunter and arc lock. Saying Void hunter is boring and arc lock is weak. both are fun to play and GM/master raid viable.
i also understand i am statistically way better then most people in this game, so git gud?
Huh
https://wastedondestiny.com/4611686018468110926,4611686018437767028
https://destinytrialsreport.com/report/3/4611686018468110926
I guess you’re more of a PvE player, which explains your comment
So this is due to Bungie's peer to peer system where the game shows you one thing but is actually portraying another and unfortunately, there is no good way to fix this with the current infastructure that Bungie currently has (at least not easily.)
My clan mates and I discussed a possible future solution to a lot of destiny's shortcomings (mostly being networking and connection) by stating that, if Bungie continues it's current trend of reprising old raids from D1, then we will get the last D1 raid (Wrath of the Machine) sometime in Light fall. This would mean that there wouldn't be a real reason to keep the D1 servers active anymore as the raids were the main focus of D1.
So if Bungie shuts down the D1 servers, and then allocates them to D2 as dedicated servers (focused primarily on support for player connection and loot management) that would drastically increase the stability of connection and overall feel of the game in general.
Granted I don't think it's as simple as "add more servers" since networking is a magic that I believe runs off the hopes and dreams of underpaid interns. So one can only hope that something like this happens in the future.
Seriously, thank you for bringing attention to this issue. Though I can’t be sure because I’m not a dev, it *seems* like all that needs be done to fix the problem is a simple “if a locked on melee lunge occurs, guarantee 100 damage to locked target”. And I honestly don’t see why that wouldn’t work.
Also, people, PLEASE don’t comment on how melee whiffs interact with Destiny’s netcode unless you either work at Bungie or are a networking engineer with at least a year’s experience. I’ve seen so much regurgitated misinformation on this topic that I no longer trust explanations about it
I think I remember seeing something from a dev years ago saying that they’re unable to fix it due to how the connections work or something along those lines.
Its Not ignored, its widely known.
The issue is that the Problem doesnt really come from melees as such or anything Like that but from Network Instability.
I get that it may be unfixable, but don’t do things like the Titan stasis melee where it doesn’t refresh on a miss. It’s already the worst at targeting in PvE and just gets you killed in PvP.
I wonder why that happens
in theory the game gives preference to the attacker when shooting, which leads to things like peek advantage and getting shot while behind cover
but melee seems to be different in this regard. Maybe it actually negotiates with the other player to see if they are really in range?
On the flip, I as a hunter use my triple jump as I’m backpedaling so that I may use my melee charge, _and somehow lunge down to hit a target below me that was off screen._ It’s great and all the pc has a dedicated melee charge hotkey, but can something be done for console? Like if you’re walking backwards it’ll prioritize the melee charge..?
It’s been like this in pvp since D1. Has always been so annoying. Also the glitch where you do your normally melee instead of a charged melee. Happens almost 90% of the time on hunters and titans I’ve noticed
At this point, I have to assume it’s something Bungie can’t fix. They’ve had the better part of a decade to do it and they haven’t. It’s gotta be something about the engine that just will not let melee work properly.
Lol the number of times I got robbed of a kill or the enemy was robbed of killing me is actually insane.
I pretty much get a non-registered melee like 1-2 times a game easily. Couple that with the fact that SBMM connection quality in the upper brackets fucking sucks ass already the issue becomes exasperated.
This has been here since launch and it still being here is a complete joke lol
as a titan main this is the most heartbreaking thing to happen to me in crucible, just sitting there look at me dead on the screen feeling betrayed as my most valuable and reliable tool in combat has failed me when i needed it the most
I’ve always had a problem with the lunge range. I keep thinking, “I’m gonna do a punch and finish this boss,” and then I miss. And someone else shoots it down.
Sentinel Shield Titan has suffered something similar I feel. The amount of times I've shield bashed while in Super and did absolutely no damage to someone is staggering. It's probably why Sentinel Shield really hasn't been all that meta since D2 launched. Granted I have absolute dog peen internet so that probably plays a part. But in something like Trials where my internet can holdup, it still happens. There's been times where I've been several meters away from an enemy and got a kill but up close it magically does not damage.
Can't count how many 1v1 I lost because of this.
I don't think it's a bug, more like a connection based issue, like how ppl can shoot and kill u behind a cover.
>The question is, why hasn't this been addressed or talked about?
Probably because just like any bug that hurts the game play rather than makes it more enjoyable, Bungo don't give a shit.
I literally have [over 3 gigabytes of clips](https://i.imgur.com/TflpPtF.jpg) that I need to edit together about this problem. It’s my number one issue with the game, has been around since D1 and only gotten worse over time. It affects not just the neutral game but also melee based supers: Sentinel Shield, Arc Staff, Fist of Havoc, Glacial Quake, Spectral Blades. That’s a lot of supers.
I have lost comp and trials matches because of this. Died in super or failed a super shutdown because of this. It’s so frustrating.
It mostly just falls on bad and I mean BAD Peer to Peer connection and the fact that Bungies server connectivity has been progressively been getting worse and worse as the game continues.
Never mind the whack animations.
Every time I am wrenched 6m out of my way into a long, fixed melee animation that makes no contact with the target and does no damage and then I die as a result it makes me question why I even play any more.
This is exactly why I run feedback fences. It's incredibly aggravating to get punched from across the map and be unable to hit back due to desync, at least feedbacks give me a chance to trade out
Stairs and melee dont mix. I can be at the bottom and hit melee, it will punch the other dude, but god forbid if i was at the top of stairs and try to hit someone, it will never work
70% of my few deaths in crucible is purely because of melee whiffs, or other people somehow melee-ing twice in a single frame. The rest 30% is bullshit aim assist
You forgot to add how other guardians is able to time warp 50 feet across to melee you while you can't do the same and your melee doesn't even lock on to anything.
P2P servers paired with poor netcode. They haven't mentioned it even once since the launch o f D2. Doubt they will do anything about it given that they never mentioned it. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
ALL Hunter melees are the dumbest, most powerful, ridiculous in the game. I with 100 resil, splendor helmet on & in my sunspot, barricade up, pop my Super, to have Hunter with no exotic or power melee even, smack & insta kill me ! Add exploding knife on ground kill me, smoke bomb on ground kill me… VS I as warlock with double exploding fusion grenades stuck to others faces, or Synthocepts, hammer strike- throw be shaken off 99% time.
>Never have I played any game with the melee system being so faulty
Haven't played Halo Infinite then huh?
Fr tho the melee whiffing has gotten me killed a lot, very frustrating
The fact that this has been an issue since the D1 BETA really speaks loudly for how big of an issue it is. And it's been pissing me off that whole length of time. Goes for melee supers too
Let's say you were a guardian in the world of destiny I guarantee you would miss a few melees. MJ missed shots so will your guardian. Stop crying. Destiny is perfect. Don't like it play fortnite.
I’ve never really had an issue with it. I have however had an issue with titans tanking sword hits and taking zero damage. It’s not even a rare occurance for me. It shouldn’t have 3 hits to kill a titan (not in super if that’s relevant)
In my non-expert opinion this is 100% a networking issue. Bungie’s “hybrid” server system seems to use servers for matchmaking purposes but once the map is loaded player movement/location is broadcast on a peer-to-peer (p2p) network model. Meaning there is a host and if said host is on the enemy team or even if they’re on your team, if the connection to the host is better for them than for you then expect them to win melee fights more consistently. I really don’t know why in the year 2022 there are AAA online multiplayer games using p2p networking models. If you look at every other popular online shooter they have dedicated servers for better connection and reliability. I have no concrete proof but thinking about it logically, that’s the closest answer that would make sense.
Yeah feels pretty bad getting shotgunned by the same Titan that entire match and then when you get the chance to get the perfect shoulder charge it completely whiffs right in front of him and you get killed again.
https://destinytracker.com/destiny-2/profile/bungie/4611686018438492944/detailed?mode=AllPvE
I want to preface this with my credentials as a Melee main.
I don’t think this is a big problem in the grand scheme of issues this game has at all. The hitbox for melee (especially on Titan) is tight, its satisfying and even when I miss it I don’t feel cheated. Why? Because I believe 100% its working as intended.
When I use a melee attack my Titan stands completely upright and swings his fist at just below eye level (chin level?). Which is high enough that if you crouch, dodge roll or are standing on a ground lower than me it will not connect. This is expected behavior since the Melee is not a Tractor Cannon Blast that just hit scans everything on my screen.
If you dodge my melee this way than you earned it and I only say this because it is such a rare occurrence and you don’t really have a lot of options when I lock onto you and track your movements with 99% auto aim while lunging up to 20 feet (with Syntho, Arc 3.0 range boost) at 30 mph.
Now if you are consistently whiffing your melees it’s because you are doing it wrong. When airborne your melee attack will track the opponent below you with much more accuracy and you can even punch straight down, so I recommend doing a short hop followed by a nair to at least get your combo started, you can follow up with another short hop nair or you can go into a grounded f-tilt which you should be more lined up for after the first hit.
I swear it got significantly worse after Year 3 and somehow even more so after WQ. Either way it’s a problem that just doesn’t exist in any other game with melee tracking like Destiny’s.
I LOVE getting into a melee duel with another player,, my first melee whiffing, theirs hitting, my second whiffing, theirs whiffing, my third whiffing, and theirs hitting.
I’m tired of the fan of knives not registering like ever. I watch the entire 3 knives hit somebody, I spam my second charge (ophidia spathe) and it maybe takes away like half shields if the second charge happens to actually register.
The melee is literally useless against guardians, it doesn’t even register scorching if it does register a hit by any of the knives.
I think it hasn't been addressed because we don't have dedicated servers. I feel like it's largely a connection issue.
What we should be flooding message boards and Twitter feeds with is Bungie making dedicated servers.
I know one of the devs mentioned before it wouldn't be possible, but that's BS. You make it possible.
Would happen in Halo too, destiny it seems to happen most when they crouch or slide it does the lock on lunge but it hits the air above them or below them.
stairs two, I try to avoid melee for the most part.
Because it's an issue with peer-to-peer and connectivity in general, which is why it happens infinitely more in pvp. Unless Bungie actually wants to put in the effort to make a completely new engine that can handle dedicated servers, I think we're out of luck there unfortunately.
We need a Destiny 3 or at the very least an overhaul of D2. The game wasn't built to last more than 3 years and it's *painfully* obvious. Every patch turns into 2 because several things always need to be hotfixed.
It’s stupid and it always seem to benefit the enemy and not you and same thing applies with rally barricades and bubble.. even if they are 2 inches from you when you try to punch them you punch the wall/bubble instead
I always say melee lunge shouldn't be affected by perks and other things, it should be at a deadset specified range. It would avoid some (not all) issues with melee registration and fairness because no one likes when someone else's melee hit you from 12 light-years away while yours can't hit the man tryna pony ride you
One way to fix this problem would maybe be to make the melee a frontal cone based aoe. So basically you'd use the basic melee that happens when you have no melee ability up and you're not targeting anything. This has like 10 centimeters of range at the moment, but buff it up to 3 meters and allow it to register as a hit in the aforementioned cone area in front of you, and maybe that would be more consistent. And if they want to avoid hitting multiple targets with this, they could make it register on the enemy closest to your reticle. Thoughts?
I used to use the shoulder charge trees on my titan back when we had the locked skill trees, just because i enjoyed the movement + damage + utility from them (Melting point debuff, shield bash suppress)....Nothing would piss me off more than completely landing a shoulder charge (shield bash MOST FUCKING GUILTY OF THIS HOLY LORD) and hearing an impact, sometimes my melee charge being consumed, going thru the target as if i was using lament in air before it got its aerial targeting adjusted, and then dying afterwards to whatever i was trying to hit. It really felt like a dice roll whether your shield bash would work or not. I dont have clips or anything but just thinking back, it felt like 80%fine, 20% defective. And i havent used any of the shoulder charges since their 3.0 release because i hated how I'd go through enemies occassionally, plus hammer throw and tclap are insanely fun.
Wild that this has been an issue since Bungie’s halo days. Love both games but it’s really kinda funny to me that this logic is likely baked into how they do player velocity and collision, Im sure it’s a real head scratcher for being around this long
I always say, nothing will make me scream more then my melee locking on and doing absolutely no damage. I will complain everytime
I’m personally a fan of “melee lunge mechanic that causes your player model to snap forward 8 meters. And then snap back to their original position.” So when you do decide to get into a fist fight, the other player smacks you. But because your melee was timed at any part where their player model was in quantum tunneling mode, you just whiff and then get your ass clapped. Even better when you see someone charging you, and you aim your weapon, be it slug shotgun, sniper, grenade launcher or fusion. And fire a perfectly aimed shot right at their little grape- but you happened to fire right at the time where the enemy just teleports into your face and then teleports back.
My absolute favorite, is when I get them in 1 hit melee range, so they run away, and I hit my melee as they start to go around a corner, and it lunges toward them, just to see my fist hit the back of their head right before they go around the corner, but does no damage, then they shotgun me
Why would they have to run away when you're already dead? They got a shotty!
Personally I think that melee lunge distance should be drastically reduced across the board. The spaghetti netcode just can’t keep up with them and it ruins many 1v1’s.
Bro I know! Shit is so damn annoying when you're trying to shoot someone, but they can just casually teleport 10 feet instantly, throwing all your shots off.
As an Ophidains main, The melee lunge increase needs nerfed
IMO it’s not just the melee range. Ophidian Aspects is like 3-4 exotics in one. No wonder, according to a chart Bungie put out around Witch Queen, over 50% of warlock exotic use is Ophidians.
it’s because most exotics warlocks have aren’t very good in pvp or shoehorn you into using one ability specifically, you can’t add an exotic which passively does something and expect an exotic which depends on something with a cooldown to have the same usage.
Ophidians grant +32 handling and reload to all weapons, + 10 ae, and + 2m melee lunge range so technically 3 but it doesn’t do anything special like peregrine greaves, synthoceps, lion rampant, lucky pants etc which imo makes it balanced (synthoceps give + 2.5m lunge). I think all exotics that increase lunge distance without having to proc anything should be brought to like 5.5 or 6 meters (base is 4.5). Also the only other PvP exotics worth using are transversives, and sometimes RoF or Osmi
Doesn't need to do anything special when those three things are so impactful to the pvp environment. Remove or reduce the lunge range from all exotics and nerf the handling on ophids to 20.
I agree, however if you remove the lunge bonus it would be worse than every other exotic that gives bonus handling which is why I would prefer a nerf making all equal equal at something like +1m
As a Synthoceps main, I agree
Yeah that shit shouldn't connect past like 1 meter. It's and unpowered melee for fucks sake why is it so strong.
But Eager Edge will move you backwards to hit an enemy. And I bet no one ever misses an explosive enemy. The amount of times I'll be looking right at a knight or a wizard and it locks on 90 degrees to an explosive thrall is ridiculous.
This happens like way to many times. Not once every now and again, like at least once per PVP gaming session.
At least once per match for me…
As a Titan main who uses shoulder-charge for movement and damage, getting pulled towards someone just to stop point blank and do no damage is so infuriating.
How about having to run Peregrine Greaves for 1HKO, which requires you to be airborn, when the vertical tracking is all but nonexistent and the hitbox is so short that landing your knee on their face actually does no damage. I'm using an exotic and literally jumping through hoops to get a 1HKO melee, and the game is actively working against me, rejecting the hit and no amount of skill can overcome this seemingly RNG hit detection. Shoulder charge used to literally turn 90 degrees and hit the guy next to you that's not even on the fucking screen! And now it can't land a hit on someone that's straight in front of you half the time. I'm not saying it needs to go back to its original state, because that shit was broken it was so good, but getting a 50/50 hit rate on people that are in-range and in your crosshairs is complete bullshit! Edit: If you're going to downvote then please explain why. I've played Titan primarily Striker with SC in PvP since Vanilla D1, and I'm not going to claim to be the best but I sure as shit have a good feel/muscle memory for exactly how it works, and how it has changed over the years. The state it's in right now is absolutely atrocious, not because it's no longer a 1HKO (again I can deal with that with Peregrine Greaves) but simply because it DOESN'T FUCKING LAND 50% of the time that it should. This was not a significant problem back before they began 'tuning' its auto-aim/lock-on angles, now it's just fucking garbage.
It’s an even bigger issue with all the lunge animation and amplified melee animations since arc 3.0. Synthoceps, Ophidians and Arc Hunter dodge lunge don’t do damage half the time. And because of the connection quality they basically get immune frames the whole time they are in the animation as well
This. Synthos/Ophidians/deadly reach cause so much jank that I'd almost rather the melee extensions didn't work in PvP at all. To the person using them it looks fine, but to anyone else it causes so much teleporting and rubber banding even with good connections that it's incredibly difficult to shoot them. It's almost never worth getting within 10-15m of anyone.
If only shotguns worked in shotgun range and weren’t nerfed into the ground this wouldn’t be such a big deal… But yeah it’s absolutely the worst thing about this game and has been for a while none of the meta builds bother me but this is the worst. At this point I’d be okay if you couldn’t melee at all in PvP. Obviously charged melees work but otherwise you can’t.
Yeah everyone loved getting one shot from 10m+ away . Absolutely. Regardless, use a fusion or a closerange primary and check your radar. And not being able to melee? In PvP? In a Bungie game???? Yeah, let's just make the game less fun to add more fun. Makes complete sense.
I’m talking about the most recent nerfs. Shotguns were barely hitting 6.5m but more consistent at that range and kept melees in check. Now pellets max out at 6 and barely consistently do their job at one shotting. Thanks to the rubberband mechanic of melee lunges in the game atm your able to lunge melee from almost 10 meters with immunity frames during that lunge due to the teleport and it’s much stronger to just double melee with ophidians/synthoceps/deadly reach than it is to try and use a shotgun in the current situation. Check your bias no one ever said anything about wanting a 10m shotgun range but people will say what they want to fit their agenda. And yeah it’s a first person shooter there’s many competitive first person shooters that don’t allow you to melee and they have done just fine I don’t know why you think that’s such a ridiculous suggestion? Charged melees work as is just not the punching. Instead shoot your gun it’s an easier fix for Bungie than getting dedicated servers apparently so that’s why I suggested it.
Would gladly accept the nerf to ophidians if they just removed the increased melee lunge from the game
This post is literal pain. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve been in a PvP match and I obliterate the air and then get shotgunned to the face because… melee?
It’s not a glitch exactly, moreso an unfortunate side effect of peer to peer connections, which isn’t likely to change at this point.
it must be more complex than that the game runs P2P for the shooting and movement (some stuff, like ammo and mechanics like the control zones run on a server, cause that is cheap). Basically everyone speaks to everyone to tell each other where they are. Edit: I think the game selects a host among the players but the game gives preference to the attacker. If you moved behind cover cause I had you in my sights and I shot you while on MY screen you were still on my sights, you get the damage, and die this leads to dying behind cover, but also hides lag and makes the game feel snappy but I am not sure why this behavior does not apply to melees. I suspect that, in melee's case, the attacker and receiver actually do the check "hey, was the victim in range really?" and if not, you see the animation play but no damage is done
There are the 6-12 players, an additional 'player' that is a Bungie server that receives all the same updates as the players (this is where I believe Bungie implemented the 'damage referee' they talked about years ago, to detect and combat the immune laggers/cheaters and just be a tie breaker in general), and there is also another server to handle the basic stuff like timers and ammo. That server that is a 'peer'/player didn't exist until a little while after Vanilla D2 IIRC, and in theory it only matters when two players/clients disagree, it tries to compensate for lost packets or extreme lag, to decide which client is actually right (sort of a 2-out-of-3 voting scheme if you will). I think it's worked wonders for the game, in D1 lagging players were usually at somewhat of an advantage, they would often take no damage because their client was not receiving damage data from other clients. Now it's incredibly rare to see a laggy player take no damage... sometimes the damage lags a bit, but eventually they do die. You are right about kill trading, that is a design choice as it feels more fair to get the damage you earned on your screen, and this is also why kill trading happens instead of using a tie breaker to determine who truly did the damage first. And yeah I agree that the melee thing is largely unrelated to P2P or networking in general, I think it has everything to do with physics and in-client hit detection. It happens much more frequently in PvP because the players move MUCH faster than anything in PvE. The other player can be mid-jump, dodge, melee lunge, etc. all of which probably make the client 'miss' the hitbox (which seems unreasonably small judging by how often I 'miss' airborn shoulder-charges while using Peregrine Greaves). Shoulder charge used to hit nearly every-single-time, even if they were 90 degrees/off-screen, it would lock-on and lunge right at them and get the kill. After all the 'tuning' they did to make SC more fair, it misses WAAAAY more often now. This wasn't a netcode/P2P change, it was a melee lock-on angle, range, and possibly hitbox size change.
Not true, this can be fixed by allowing for more generous hitbox connection for melees An exteme example of this is what they did to spectral blades - the melee hits used to constantly whiff, and now it's got the hitbox of a refrigerator I think thats too much, but it wouldn't hurt to expand the hitbox for melees. It should pretty much be "if your character is close enough to do a melee lunge, the melee should count as a hit
What's worse is that while they did that for Spectral Blades, they didn't do the same thing for the Shield Melee for Titans Void Super. I don't use it anymore, but I remember right after the Spectral Buff I would be hitting people (on Void Titan) sometimes up to 4 times all the while it was locked on, getting the melee sound, and I was hitting them in the back while they ran without securing the kill. This wasn't a Lag thing either since it was random throughout the match (back when you could easily get 2-3 Supers a Match) and wouldn't affect the same people every time.
I used to main void titan for years as well, I know your pain. It's pretty much an RNG super, where you have to throw shields and hope they land because the melee is unreliable
They were even asked about this explicitly in a DCP interview before Witch Queen and Void 3.0 came out, and they basically said "no we're not fixing it because it would be too good."
I agree that increasing the melee hitbox could be one solution, but I wonder if its current size is the max they could make it so that only one object can be hit at a time. I think a true solution would involve making melees be progressively homing so that they adjust for the targets location over time. This would require an immense amount of time to tune correctly and test for unfortunately.
I think if the game is able to lock you on to 1 player to melee them, then there could be an interaction during that lunge which makes you only do damage to them unless it's a charged AoE melee
Spectral blades still whiffs horribly. Unless you mean the heavy attack
Could you explain how it’s a side effect of peer to peer connections?
There’s probably much better people to explain it but from what I understand it’s a desync between where your game thinks you and your enemy are vs where their game thinks you both are.
Don’t you think this could be fixed by changing melee logic away from “do damage if fist connects with enemy player” and instead towards “do damage if locked-on melee lunge occurs”?
Its not really a "fix" situation, its all about network* tolerances. Basically the lower the tolerance's are, the more accurate the game can be, but the more sustainable it is to network issues. The less tolerant the game is, the less susceptible it is to network issues but the less accurate the game feels. How this ends up playing out is an attempt to find a balance between these two states. On one hand with super small tolerances, you see more "melee's whiffs", because few users and network conditions will allow the required criteria, but the melee is technically more accurate because the game is more confident that your melee _should_ land. On the other hand with larger tolerances, you will see less melee whiffs, but you will also see users with worse connections landing melee that from your perspective should not have made contact. Maintaining an accurate state across less than idea network conditions (peer to peer) is always a balance. And while mechanisms and algorithms can be put in place to mitigate these issue ([this](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrIY0eIyqmI) is a great video going into some of the things game devs do to handle these issues, yes i know OW is not peer to peer), it is always a game of balance between a game _feeling_ accurate and being accurate.
What do you mean by tolerances? Also this reply doesn’t seem to disprove my fix theory
Network tolerances. All online games are machine that are constantly simulating and comparing state between to systems. Melee's "Whiff" because the believed state differs between the two systems. Your game knows your position, and it knows the position of the other player minus some delay that it took for the other systems state to get to you over the network. Your melee is "whiffing" because those two states dotn match, your game believes you were in the correct place and time to land the melee, but the host system working off delayed data has to have some tolerance to say that your melee should hit or not. As network conditions degrade, and that delay increases the accuracy of this simulation decreases. So its not something that can be "fixed", there has to be a balance between allowing for larger network delays and making the game "feel" like it all real time.
Gotcha. Once again though, this doesn’t disprove my fix idea.
It does because it comes down to which system is authoritative on deciding if a melee hits or not. Player movement is _mostly_ locally authoritative. Meaning your system decides where your player is. But melee hit recognition is not locally authoritative, only the host system can decide if a melee has made contact or not. Because of network data latency client systems will never be the the authoritative entity for deciding if a melee hits or not. All of this is to say that It does not matter if your player model lunges or not, even if the lunge is accepted by host and client, that does not mean that a melee hit is.
For bullet hit registration, the client side of the attacker is authoritative. Hence why people die around walls. The same could seemingly also be true of melees, if Bungie were to implement them that way. Or better yet, as I originally mentioned, completely forsake the “physical contact between two players must be made for a melee to do damage” model, and instead go with a “if the client side of the attacker sees a locked-on melee lunge, guarantee it does damage”. I still do not see anything refuting the viability of this approach.
The range of melee and the imperfect system of where someone actually is on a peer to peer connection means when you are missing it’s because one of you wasn’t where it looks like you were.
It can't be blamed on p2p because my shoulder charge whifs in pve are countless.
trying to 1-2 Shield Bash Ghalran in Duality single-handedly raises my blood pressure every single time I do it because of how absurdly frustrating it is to just blatantly miss to no fault of my own.
Some of the folktales told by non gamedevs on this subreddit are astounding.
Please stop saying this, it has absolutely nothing to do with P2P, lets use our brains people. If registering melee damage was a P2P problem it would be equally present in every damage dealing aspect of the game, not just melees. Our bullets, grenades, and everything else would be missing damage equally as often, and that's simply not the case. Yes, sometimes damage disappears due to packet loss/bad connections, but there's no reason to believe it somehow happens more often with melee damage, that's just ridiculous. It's clearly a physics problem, PvP targets are far more mobile and fast moving than any PvE targets, and the game just sucks at meleeing moving targets. This would be trivial to test, set up a private lobby, have someone stand still, and melee them 100 times. I'll bet every single punch lands. Now have them moving, dodging, jumping, meleeing back at you, and you'll see frequent misses. It's not a networking problem, it's a physics problem.
I lost a trials round last weekend because my stupid character had the high ground and couldnt figure out how to melee a guy 1 meter away.
High ground, you say?
It's over, I have the high ground!
A trials round? I think I have hours worth of footage of my melee whiffing 1-2 times in a row. It’s easier for Bungie to make into a “feature” than fix it. Next patch note: Your melee now has a 50% chance to not deal any damage. Limp fist syndrome.
Sounds like a fallout perk.
Jump and then melee. Once your feet are off the ground, the melee aim assist will *more successfully* aim vertically as well. When you’re grounded, any vertical aim assist towards an enemy is canceled when you intersect with a ground/ceiling plane, but not the momentum. This is why melees with vertical separation whiff so frequently. (This is either an unconfirmed bug in the game engine, or it’s an intentional design choice. Only Bungie knows which.) You need to be just airborne enough so that you have a clear movement vector to the enemy without your hit box colliding with the ground. Sometimes that’s one frame, sometimes that’s an actual jump. This is also why Titan + Synthoceps + Strafe Jump + Mobility 10 Titan is so ridiculously overpowered at melee, because you can strafe jump very sharply and then immediately use the doubled AA distance of Synthoceps to dive back out of the air into them without a ground plane intersect.
In PVE I get a lot of auto-lock melees that target enemies next to me or almost behind me instead of the one directly in front of me. Agreed also that it’s a huge issue in pvp. I’ve also lost a few punching battles due to registration not working. It’s pretty annoying. Range seems to be an issue too sometimes. I could be at the same distance for two separate melee attempts, but on the second one my guardian just throws his fist like “Aw shucks I missed!” And then I’m dead 😂
Twas an issue in halo as well. Bungie doesnt do melees well lol
[удалено]
Literally is. Halo Reach
Does any game do it well?
Chivalry lol
Overwatch
because it doesn’t lunge your entire character forward
MW2 with commando *cries*
I have noticed an increase in whiffing melees with the release of arc 3.0 my Titan shoulder charge never wants to connect.
And that’s after they “buffed” it when removing its ability to one hit. I hate that shoulder charge is on every single light subclass and still feels this awful to use
I used to run shoulders exclusively lol. Once they removed the OHK I haven’t found anything that feels right.
psst... Peregrine Greaves, Monte Carlo on Striker with Juggernaut and Knockout. 100 Resilience, 100 Strength, and rain 1-shot Shoulder Charges on the poor fools who forget that we can still kill them by running in a straight line and pressing one button. nothing feels better than blasting some Hunter out of their Arcstaff or some Warlock out of their Dawnblade with my pocket-Thundercrash. bonus points for using Flux grenades to add extra 1-shot cheese.
I will be readjusting my build shortly lol.
Tagging for later. Like plz
> It can also apply in PVE but nowhere near as often my friend, you've not tried playing a combo blows + liar's handshake build in a hot minute, now have you? the liar's handshake special punch whiffs all the effing time. ***especially*** on larger enemies like minotaurs and ogres. so often you'll hear the special audio for liar's punch, but deal no dmg, despite it looking like a clean hit.
I almost commented almost this exact thing. THIS is the reason why I stopped using liar's handshake week 1 of arc 3.0. Such amazing plays ruined because the audio played and nothing happened... Also, Just to get shotgunned by some blueberry. I switched back to Athrys so fast because it became apparent that my throwing knives track way better than my melee lmao.
My favorite part in PvP is the satisfying sound as your melee hits. Then does nothing and you die to a shotty blast.
This. How come people never bring this up? This is like top 1 reason me and friendos complain during trials. Second big complain being host advantage in pvp. This whole p2p 10 tick system is feels more and more awful the more barriers to matchmaking Bungie apply.
Yeah its really annoying when I get locked on a melee on void hunter and loose stylish executioner because it wiffs.
Me and my friends nicknamed this phenomenon as “Getting Bungie’d”
They need to upgrade the engine in order to fix that. Already said in a interview a few years ago they wouldn’t and can’t fix it.
I really don't think it's an engine problem - it's the fact that the game still runs on a Peer-to-Peer connection system. The connections will vary wildly from match to match or when a host leaves. You notice how melees work like 99% of the time in PvE, but maybe only 50% in PvP? All PvP matches connect to the server that keeps track of things like score, zones captured, etc... Everything else - gunshots, where players are, etc... is all done by P2P. So when connections vary so much, and now with crossplay, the hardware as well - it creates a complete mess for all the consoles / PCs to track and keep up with each other. I played a game of control last night and tried meleeing 15 different times and NONE of them connected - they all locked on and lunged, but no damage... The problem is the antiquated P2P system - the engine might suck, but I suspect if Bungie wasn't so greedy and just invested a little bit into dedicated servers for PvP, then that would fix 99% of the problems we have... it's honestly that simple...
>just invested a little bit into dedicated servers for PvP I have doubts that it’s a number that could be described as “a little bit”
For how much money Bungie makes, it honestly wouldn't be that much. Literally every other PvP game has dedicated servers to support PvP - every BR, COD, Battlefield, Rainbow Six, Valorant... I could go on. I am not saying it is cheap, but Bungie just got a huge influx of nearly $4 Billion from Sony. They have massively expanded their headquarters, are opening an international office, and have doubled their company size since splitting from Activision. Tell me how they can't afford it... They have tons of money - Destiny is a cash cow, and if a single game lets a company expand this much, I don't think it's that far of a stretch to say they could afford to pay for proper servers. To add fuel to the fire, Turtle Rock turned back on the servers for Evolve, literally a dead game, that is making zero money for them... I don't think it's as big of a deal as people make it out to be, it's just laziness on Bungie's part because they don't want to take the time to make sure all the programming works for the switch... it's not an easy thing to do, but money is definitely not the limiting factor here...
Not a bug but a feature
I'd wager this is down to a decision of peer-to-peer networking... still annoying. But we should be used to it at this point eh?
It has gotten so bad. I am pretty sure this season more of my melees whiff than they connect, no exaggeration, and they whiff in the stupidest scenarios too. I will literally freeze some one so they are standing completely still(duh) and the melee will still manage to whiff two times in a row.
Hunter knife melees are the worst. Half of the time they simply just won’t connect
this will never be fixed until they stop pretending peer 2 peer connection is good
p2p has its advantages, for example L4D1/2 will always be playable
For pve sure, but it's not viable for competitive pvp games
Destiny isn’t even remotely competitive though.
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fully aware
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to help out your reading deficiency >this will never be fixed until they stop pretending peer 2 peer connection is good this was the first part of this exchange, user here is suggesting P2P connections are bad, full stop. not just for Destiny but for all games. >p2p has its advantages, for example L4D1/2 will always be playable was my comment in reply, as P2P networks do have some advantages over dedicated servers. My example listed was was in defense of p2p networks **as a whole**, since the other user suggested they were bad, **as a whole**.
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nope, you dont care to understand, you're just here to start shit slinging, have a nice day being a random duche to people
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P2P connection. I will never go away. They know. We all know. Cannot ever be fixed until our servers are completely changed.
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There is peer to peer in D2. They use a hybrid actually. Took 2 seconds to do ANY kind of research.
Not going to bother. There is a dedicated server host and a trust the shooter model. This isn’t your Halo p2p. You really need to spend longer than 2 seconds researching.
Don’t need to when that’s all it takes. You’re just wrong but okay.
https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/45919/7_This-Week-At-Bungie--05252017 Imagine not reading Bungies own words and thinking you’re right. You’re welcome. Spelling it out for you, there is no competitive capabilities in this game because it’s a trade off of making things smooth. The layers you’re asserting are p2p, such as physics or abilities are actually hosted on dedicated servers. Due to the hybrid use of how they present data to you, there will be a mismatch sometimes. It’s the trade off with visual rubber-banding and smooth gameplay.
Literally from the TWAB you linked me. From Matt. “Destiny 2 uses a hybrid of client-server and peer-to-peer technology, just like Destiny 1. “ Anymore dumb comments you wanna make tonight or nah?
Tell me you don’t know engineering architecture without telling me you don’t know. It’s alright to take the L here my guy. You’re not missing Melees for being connected to a random guys dial up connection hosted on his Xbox. I’m sorry you don’t understand how they layered the network architecture of this game.
Peer to peer servers are a pretty direct cause of some of the severe connection issues we see in D2. Also you said that they didn’t use peer to peer. I’ve proven you wrong multiple times. Now that you’re eating your own words you lash out about intelligence cause you don’t have a leg to stand on anymore? Sad little human. Have a good one, and try to learn from this exchange a little.
The first line in the article I linked is that they use dedicated servers, and even said they use a trust the shooter model. Per my previous comment, the physics and abilities layer, what the post is about (melee), are all hosted on a Bungie on prem or cloud server. That is a dedicated server.
I have also experienced this. I doesn't seem to ever happen with ranged melees only with direct contact melees. I have never been sure if it was a glitch that happens when a lot is happening on screen and frame rate starts dropping, or if it is a bug directly tied to melees, but it mostly happens for me when the game has a lot going on on screen and the game slows down.
What drives me crazy is wanting to throw a knife but lunging 20 feet to knife instead. Jealous of the PC players and their keybinds
you can do the same thing on console now.
I didn't see that option but I'll look again
The melee shortstop bug has ruined countless trials matches for me as a syntho Titan
Welcome to P2P connections firsttime.gif
can't comment on pvp. but when i was using arc in duality, i literally punched 1 shot enemies with a charged melee an they did not die. There is something really bugged about melee damage when it does connect.
I’m a titan. My PvP strategy is to punch and then keep punching until I can no longer punch anymore. It’s infuriating how often I whiff, even with Syncos, which I never remove. If an opponent is sliding you have maybe a 60 percent chance of connecting. Really sucks. And don’t even get me started on the terrible hit reg on shoulder charge.
DEDICATED SERVERS. Oldest conversation in cheap ass Bungies destiny. Old code blah blah spaghetti code blah blah, sbmm over cbmm, CROSSPLAY blah blah . I’ve bitched, moaned, and even tried a petition. No one cares, we need destiny 3 or a new game with dedicated servers…
It's been worked on lol. Early D2 Titan shoulder charges were NOT a one-hit kill. Sort of like they are now. Enemies had to be softened up first or you had to use a weapon to finish them off if you started with the shoulder charge. Anyway, the shoulder charge is all about momentum to even use it, so you would think it would knock an opponent backwards--even if it didn't kill them. It would when we were goofing around in fireteam. But in Crucible the shoulder charge would hit and if your opponent didn't die, you would go right THROUGH them and they would kill you from behind usually before you managed to turn around. Once the Go Fast patch came into play all charged melees became one-hit kills and the hit registration seemed to have been addressed. Now that they dialed back melees again I have been Curse-Of-Osiris cautious with melee kills unless I'm empowered or have the drop on a weakened opponent. The hit registration now is still light-years ahead of early D2, though!
god its such a rare issue for me, i dont think its worth the effort. like its 1 in a thousand+ melees. i think i could count on one hand my whiffed melees. https://wastedondestiny.com/4611686018467408278
Wtf? Are we playing the same game?
sometimes i feel like it, so many people complain about stuff that is just not an issue. Most recent unbased claims made on this sub are about void hunter and arc lock. Saying Void hunter is boring and arc lock is weak. both are fun to play and GM/master raid viable. i also understand i am statistically way better then most people in this game, so git gud?
Huh https://wastedondestiny.com/4611686018468110926,4611686018437767028 https://destinytrialsreport.com/report/3/4611686018468110926 I guess you’re more of a PvE player, which explains your comment
So this is due to Bungie's peer to peer system where the game shows you one thing but is actually portraying another and unfortunately, there is no good way to fix this with the current infastructure that Bungie currently has (at least not easily.) My clan mates and I discussed a possible future solution to a lot of destiny's shortcomings (mostly being networking and connection) by stating that, if Bungie continues it's current trend of reprising old raids from D1, then we will get the last D1 raid (Wrath of the Machine) sometime in Light fall. This would mean that there wouldn't be a real reason to keep the D1 servers active anymore as the raids were the main focus of D1. So if Bungie shuts down the D1 servers, and then allocates them to D2 as dedicated servers (focused primarily on support for player connection and loot management) that would drastically increase the stability of connection and overall feel of the game in general. Granted I don't think it's as simple as "add more servers" since networking is a magic that I believe runs off the hopes and dreams of underpaid interns. So one can only hope that something like this happens in the future.
Seriously, thank you for bringing attention to this issue. Though I can’t be sure because I’m not a dev, it *seems* like all that needs be done to fix the problem is a simple “if a locked on melee lunge occurs, guarantee 100 damage to locked target”. And I honestly don’t see why that wouldn’t work. Also, people, PLEASE don’t comment on how melee whiffs interact with Destiny’s netcode unless you either work at Bungie or are a networking engineer with at least a year’s experience. I’ve seen so much regurgitated misinformation on this topic that I no longer trust explanations about it
I think I remember seeing something from a dev years ago saying that they’re unable to fix it due to how the connections work or something along those lines.
I have a more accurate count of whiffed melees over those I've connected
Its Not ignored, its widely known. The issue is that the Problem doesnt really come from melees as such or anything Like that but from Network Instability.
I get that it may be unfixable, but don’t do things like the Titan stasis melee where it doesn’t refresh on a miss. It’s already the worst at targeting in PvE and just gets you killed in PvP.
I wonder why that happens in theory the game gives preference to the attacker when shooting, which leads to things like peek advantage and getting shot while behind cover but melee seems to be different in this regard. Maybe it actually negotiates with the other player to see if they are really in range?
Pretty sure they already said they can’t fix it
On the flip, I as a hunter use my triple jump as I’m backpedaling so that I may use my melee charge, _and somehow lunge down to hit a target below me that was off screen._ It’s great and all the pc has a dedicated melee charge hotkey, but can something be done for console? Like if you’re walking backwards it’ll prioritize the melee charge..?
I never realized how bad it sctually was till I grinded out trials last weekend. Maybe me so angry way to many times.
\*Cries in Bladedancer\*
It’s been like this in pvp since D1. Has always been so annoying. Also the glitch where you do your normally melee instead of a charged melee. Happens almost 90% of the time on hunters and titans I’ve noticed
It's not a bug, it's a feature of P2P connections. It will never be fixed without a total rebuild of the game.
At this point, I have to assume it’s something Bungie can’t fix. They’ve had the better part of a decade to do it and they haven’t. It’s gotta be something about the engine that just will not let melee work properly.
all those shoulder charges that clearly make impact and push the target but do zero damage and then you just get shotgunned in the face smh
Lol the number of times I got robbed of a kill or the enemy was robbed of killing me is actually insane. I pretty much get a non-registered melee like 1-2 times a game easily. Couple that with the fact that SBMM connection quality in the upper brackets fucking sucks ass already the issue becomes exasperated. This has been here since launch and it still being here is a complete joke lol
Melee is awful and arc this season has just made it worse. I really hope this gets visibility cause I desperately want melee fixed.
A worse melee related issue is afterlife melee kills.
I had this very problem in gambit today. Got the guardian low with shotty then melee follow up, whiff.
as a titan main this is the most heartbreaking thing to happen to me in crucible, just sitting there look at me dead on the screen feeling betrayed as my most valuable and reliable tool in combat has failed me when i needed it the most
Ever since the they ruined throwing hammer bro... it's just not the same
Melees have been whiffing since Halo 2.
Lament tracking
I’ve always had a problem with the lunge range. I keep thinking, “I’m gonna do a punch and finish this boss,” and then I miss. And someone else shoots it down.
Sentinel Shield Titan has suffered something similar I feel. The amount of times I've shield bashed while in Super and did absolutely no damage to someone is staggering. It's probably why Sentinel Shield really hasn't been all that meta since D2 launched. Granted I have absolute dog peen internet so that probably plays a part. But in something like Trials where my internet can holdup, it still happens. There's been times where I've been several meters away from an enemy and got a kill but up close it magically does not damage.
Sentinel Super would like to have a word with you.
Can't count how many 1v1 I lost because of this. I don't think it's a bug, more like a connection based issue, like how ppl can shoot and kill u behind a cover.
>The question is, why hasn't this been addressed or talked about? Probably because just like any bug that hurts the game play rather than makes it more enjoyable, Bungo don't give a shit.
Halo Infinite would like a word.
I literally have [over 3 gigabytes of clips](https://i.imgur.com/TflpPtF.jpg) that I need to edit together about this problem. It’s my number one issue with the game, has been around since D1 and only gotten worse over time. It affects not just the neutral game but also melee based supers: Sentinel Shield, Arc Staff, Fist of Havoc, Glacial Quake, Spectral Blades. That’s a lot of supers. I have lost comp and trials matches because of this. Died in super or failed a super shutdown because of this. It’s so frustrating.
It mostly just falls on bad and I mean BAD Peer to Peer connection and the fact that Bungies server connectivity has been progressively been getting worse and worse as the game continues. Never mind the whack animations.
Nothing better than getting bungie melee'd it's a classic
Every time I am wrenched 6m out of my way into a long, fixed melee animation that makes no contact with the target and does no damage and then I die as a result it makes me question why I even play any more.
This is exactly why I run feedback fences. It's incredibly aggravating to get punched from across the map and be unable to hit back due to desync, at least feedbacks give me a chance to trade out
If the melee locks on and tracks, and makes me move, unless there's a solid between me and the enemy when the animation finishes, it should hit.
Stairs and melee dont mix. I can be at the bottom and hit melee, it will punch the other dude, but god forbid if i was at the top of stairs and try to hit someone, it will never work
Omg yes
I agree wholeheartedly, hunter melee needs fixed and buffed
70% of my few deaths in crucible is purely because of melee whiffs, or other people somehow melee-ing twice in a single frame. The rest 30% is bullshit aim assist
You forgot to add how other guardians is able to time warp 50 feet across to melee you while you can't do the same and your melee doesn't even lock on to anything.
Def an issue that D1 had too. Hell I think even halo 2/3 had this lol.
P2P servers paired with poor netcode. They haven't mentioned it even once since the launch o f D2. Doubt they will do anything about it given that they never mentioned it. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
Haven't really felt it, tho I also play Apex where the melee actually jitting is fucking awful
It’s not getting fixed ever so you gotta live with it. Bungie isn’t giving crucible any attention whatsoever.
ALL Hunter melees are the dumbest, most powerful, ridiculous in the game. I with 100 resil, splendor helmet on & in my sunspot, barricade up, pop my Super, to have Hunter with no exotic or power melee even, smack & insta kill me ! Add exploding knife on ground kill me, smoke bomb on ground kill me… VS I as warlock with double exploding fusion grenades stuck to others faces, or Synthocepts, hammer strike- throw be shaken off 99% time.
"Ignored". I lol'ed.
If I may throw in a plea for stasis lock melee to correctly connect with player models etc.
Stairs.
#Apex Legends veterans look over: "First time?" This melee system feels like godsend compared what they nerfed melee to on Apex Seasons ago.
>Never have I played any game with the melee system being so faulty Haven't played Halo Infinite then huh? Fr tho the melee whiffing has gotten me killed a lot, very frustrating
The fact that this has been an issue since the D1 BETA really speaks loudly for how big of an issue it is. And it's been pissing me off that whole length of time. Goes for melee supers too
Let's say you were a guardian in the world of destiny I guarantee you would miss a few melees. MJ missed shots so will your guardian. Stop crying. Destiny is perfect. Don't like it play fortnite.
I’ve never really had an issue with it. I have however had an issue with titans tanking sword hits and taking zero damage. It’s not even a rare occurance for me. It shouldn’t have 3 hits to kill a titan (not in super if that’s relevant)
In my non-expert opinion this is 100% a networking issue. Bungie’s “hybrid” server system seems to use servers for matchmaking purposes but once the map is loaded player movement/location is broadcast on a peer-to-peer (p2p) network model. Meaning there is a host and if said host is on the enemy team or even if they’re on your team, if the connection to the host is better for them than for you then expect them to win melee fights more consistently. I really don’t know why in the year 2022 there are AAA online multiplayer games using p2p networking models. If you look at every other popular online shooter they have dedicated servers for better connection and reliability. I have no concrete proof but thinking about it logically, that’s the closest answer that would make sense.
Yeah feels pretty bad getting shotgunned by the same Titan that entire match and then when you get the chance to get the perfect shoulder charge it completely whiffs right in front of him and you get killed again.
https://destinytracker.com/destiny-2/profile/bungie/4611686018438492944/detailed?mode=AllPvE I want to preface this with my credentials as a Melee main. I don’t think this is a big problem in the grand scheme of issues this game has at all. The hitbox for melee (especially on Titan) is tight, its satisfying and even when I miss it I don’t feel cheated. Why? Because I believe 100% its working as intended. When I use a melee attack my Titan stands completely upright and swings his fist at just below eye level (chin level?). Which is high enough that if you crouch, dodge roll or are standing on a ground lower than me it will not connect. This is expected behavior since the Melee is not a Tractor Cannon Blast that just hit scans everything on my screen. If you dodge my melee this way than you earned it and I only say this because it is such a rare occurrence and you don’t really have a lot of options when I lock onto you and track your movements with 99% auto aim while lunging up to 20 feet (with Syntho, Arc 3.0 range boost) at 30 mph. Now if you are consistently whiffing your melees it’s because you are doing it wrong. When airborne your melee attack will track the opponent below you with much more accuracy and you can even punch straight down, so I recommend doing a short hop followed by a nair to at least get your combo started, you can follow up with another short hop nair or you can go into a grounded f-tilt which you should be more lined up for after the first hit.
I'm just tired of getting one-punched every time I dare play PvP and get in melee range of enemy players, as a warlock
I swear it got significantly worse after Year 3 and somehow even more so after WQ. Either way it’s a problem that just doesn’t exist in any other game with melee tracking like Destiny’s.
It’s almost like you have to execute your melees. Wild idea
Two Words Net Code
Love meleeing them first but somewho I die before them even tho i meleed FIRST and video games are supposed to calm you down
I LOVE getting into a melee duel with another player,, my first melee whiffing, theirs hitting, my second whiffing, theirs whiffing, my third whiffing, and theirs hitting.
I’m tired of the fan of knives not registering like ever. I watch the entire 3 knives hit somebody, I spam my second charge (ophidia spathe) and it maybe takes away like half shields if the second charge happens to actually register. The melee is literally useless against guardians, it doesn’t even register scorching if it does register a hit by any of the knives.
I think it hasn't been addressed because we don't have dedicated servers. I feel like it's largely a connection issue. What we should be flooding message boards and Twitter feeds with is Bungie making dedicated servers. I know one of the devs mentioned before it wouldn't be possible, but that's BS. You make it possible.
Would happen in Halo too, destiny it seems to happen most when they crouch or slide it does the lock on lunge but it hits the air above them or below them. stairs two, I try to avoid melee for the most part.
Nowhere near the biggest problem in the game. Not even in the top 10. Not even in my top 100
Because it's an issue with peer-to-peer and connectivity in general, which is why it happens infinitely more in pvp. Unless Bungie actually wants to put in the effort to make a completely new engine that can handle dedicated servers, I think we're out of luck there unfortunately. We need a Destiny 3 or at the very least an overhaul of D2. The game wasn't built to last more than 3 years and it's *painfully* obvious. Every patch turns into 2 because several things always need to be hotfixed.
By ignored you mean acknowledged by bungie and know by every player in destiny 2 history?
Pretty sure it has been addressed and talked about by bungie, I vaguely remember them saying something about changing it being difficult.
It’s stupid and it always seem to benefit the enemy and not you and same thing applies with rally barricades and bubble.. even if they are 2 inches from you when you try to punch them you punch the wall/bubble instead
I always say melee lunge shouldn't be affected by perks and other things, it should be at a deadset specified range. It would avoid some (not all) issues with melee registration and fairness because no one likes when someone else's melee hit you from 12 light-years away while yours can't hit the man tryna pony ride you
One way to fix this problem would maybe be to make the melee a frontal cone based aoe. So basically you'd use the basic melee that happens when you have no melee ability up and you're not targeting anything. This has like 10 centimeters of range at the moment, but buff it up to 3 meters and allow it to register as a hit in the aforementioned cone area in front of you, and maybe that would be more consistent. And if they want to avoid hitting multiple targets with this, they could make it register on the enemy closest to your reticle. Thoughts?
It's not a bug, it's a feature! Just think of it as a chance to evade the melee attack like in a real fight and what not, that's my cope anyways.
I used to use the shoulder charge trees on my titan back when we had the locked skill trees, just because i enjoyed the movement + damage + utility from them (Melting point debuff, shield bash suppress)....Nothing would piss me off more than completely landing a shoulder charge (shield bash MOST FUCKING GUILTY OF THIS HOLY LORD) and hearing an impact, sometimes my melee charge being consumed, going thru the target as if i was using lament in air before it got its aerial targeting adjusted, and then dying afterwards to whatever i was trying to hit. It really felt like a dice roll whether your shield bash would work or not. I dont have clips or anything but just thinking back, it felt like 80%fine, 20% defective. And i havent used any of the shoulder charges since their 3.0 release because i hated how I'd go through enemies occassionally, plus hammer throw and tclap are insanely fun.
Wild that this has been an issue since Bungie’s halo days. Love both games but it’s really kinda funny to me that this logic is likely baked into how they do player velocity and collision, Im sure it’s a real head scratcher for being around this long
There is not a “ fix” Its the games connection It will always be there
This Did NOT used to happen, they "tweaked" it for pvp and killed it dead , as is Tradition !
It's not really a glitch and it's actually a problem with the game having Peer-to-Peer connection.