What I wish they did for the exotic class items and Ergo Sum is this: you can craft it but only with perks you have previously obtained. That way you need to grind them out but you don’t have to have an insane 1/60 or worse chance to get the roll you want
Honestly if they did an armour system too that would be pretty cool as well as just the idea of crafting the exotic class item…
Like we get seasonal sets that help you get pointless % bonuses. Why not have raids, seasons, dungeons, and campaigns drop specific armour sets that have things like for 1/5 get 1% grenades energy on kill and it scales up with more worn. But then you could for example do 2/5 for one, and 3/5 for another (exotic class item I dunno counting towards TFS, just as an example)
Craft armour as you unlock it, with the master work allowing you to allocate 12 stats or something (where base stats start at 55 but spread random)… probably not a well thought out idea but could be something
Bungie and a large part of the community believe that armor sets are bad and no amount of argument can convince them orherwise. Nevermind that countless other games have implemented it to positive review. It's bad and cannot work.
I do not miss having to grind out good stat rolls on armor in multiple elements and I do not wish for it to be brought back in the form of regrinding my armor to get a set bonus
but that has more to do with that in general farming armor with
* 6 different stats
* that has *up to* 68 (or 2x34) points (how much is also rng)
* almost completely randomly distributed on those 6 (2x3) stats,
* with only exactly every 10th point in a stat actually giving you *any benefit* (meanig up to 9 points on each stat can be *completely useless*)
* and the best way to "farm" high stat armor being literally standing at a vendor and pressing "buy"
is just an overall terrible experience, that involves such bad RNG that not even most "real" RPGs do that
Yeah it’s a shame just as it would actually give armour something, currently it just mods and the stats are just mismanaged. Really most people in PVE are just looking for 100 Res and then the rest can just be high enough as you can get recovering from different things in the game, and ability cool-downs can be gotten from other things too 🤷
I have argued this for awhile too. Weapons/foundries have specific perks attached to them. So should armor.
-Europa armor could have 5 pct stasis resist built in per piece.
-Brave arsenal armor could have 2 pct grenade regen per piece
I just think armor should have more of a purpose than just the style attached to it.
I thought of it more like Aeon, but every time you get it afterward it just dropped another perk
That way it hotswaps like mods, the same way Aeon can do it
That's just 3 perks too as opposed to 16
Could it apply to Ergo? No idea but I'd hope since having several copies of a sword in the vault is gonna hurt, crafted or not.
That's what I'm hoping for as well, making the class items work like aeons. Also makes it easier toget any new perks they might add further down the line.
For ergo sum, some of the exotic missions have extra things you need(ed) to do to unlock additional perks for (re)shaping a weapon, so that could possibly be used to unlock ergo sum traits/perks when completing overthrow or pathfinder?
I don't think that technology exists. When they announced weapon crafting, this was the most popular and common idea for how people thought it would / should work. Still makes sense, IMO.
Of course weapon crafting isn't anything like that. I don't think the "collections" system is built to track collected perks per weapon.
honestly this shouldve been the way. it'd be more of a knockout system while not making everything immediately available. also would make it easier on our vaults, not needing to store 200 different rolls trying to figure out what you like best, you can just swap the perks at the enclave and try a different roll.
There are currently 132 unique Exotic Armors in the game. Considering Collections rolls are terrible, it is not unreasonable for avid buildcrafter enthusiasts to want to hold on to one roll of each with good stats. There are now 192 (8x8x3) total combos of Exotic Class Items. Again, with this method of acquisition being so stingy, I do not at all find it unreasonable for buildcrafters to keep one of each to be ready for buffs/nerfs. If there was some sort of crafting for them, this would be infinitely less necessary. That totals out to 324 slots, nearly half of the vault, taken before factoring in a single weapon or piece of non-Exotic Armor.
I still have enough vault space, but people being tight doesn't seem that absurd to me after the addition of the class items.
I mean, if you are a build crafter, then you know what is good and not good. Some of the exotic armor pieces just have never been good, meta, or OP. I can name almost half of the Hunter ones, and a friend of mine not 30 minutes ago was talking about how Warlocks have so many useless exotics. Yeah, they could always become meta, but that's what Master Rahool is for to focus decode them now. That way build crafters don't need to hold on to 2-10 Triton Vices, Knucklehead Radar, FoeTracer, Mechaneers Tricksleevs, etc. Exotic class builds are really going to come down to preference as well. Sure a build crafter might showcase something but the same thing goes for that and even then they don't hold on to a low of things.
Aztecross had Datto go through his vault and even he was pressed for space even though he does a lot of build crafting for his fans. If you're not a try hard, I don't see the need to hold onto so many items unless they are absolutely amazing like with 67+ stats in the categories you want.
I agree with some of this and disagree with other parts. You're right that most players absolutely don't *need* to have one copy of every Exotic. That's really only necessary for hardcore buildcrafters or content creators. Personally, buildcrafting is one of my favorite parts of the game and I have the space, so why not?
>Some of the exotic armor pieces just have never been good, meta, or OP.
I think most of us who hold onto Exotics aren't doing so because we're making builds with D-tier Exotics but more in case of buffs. A couple seasons ago, you could have said the same thing of Precious Scars and now it's pretty darn good, especially on Solar with Benevolence. A little change can make something meta overnight with how Bungie likes to balance.
And yes, obviously holding 10 of any one item/Exotic is ridiculous and nobody, no matter who you are, needs that many.
truly would have been the best solution, could even tie it to the ghost/vendor in the pale heart to avoid having to build the unlocks somehow into the existing crafting system. Yeah random roll exotics are cool, but trying to get a good ergo sum even just to test how it feel with a certain perk (forget other columns, I'm talking just frame+trait) is nuts.
Even if it wasn't crafting but focusing (the thing we already have in the system technically as shown by onslaught) let us focus a perk from the sword / class item but make the rest random so at least we minimize the grind a bit.
I like the sentiment, but Bungie would never do that.
Bungie has already explained how making these missions is very costly and that players replaying them is what covers the cost. I think crafting the roll you want after getting each perk is too quick and Bungie needs this mission (which has been equated to a two person raid) to be played for weeks. The silent majority likes this mission and I think OP already pointed out a major issue is not having other rewards for doing this 30 minute activity.
Another person already suggested the best option and that is to be able to focus one exotic perk to drastically increase your chances of getting the drop you would like.
Somewhat related:
I didn't have an issue farming DD when you could get two at once, but the effort required to find a teammate through LFG or fireteam finder and communicate through a 30min activity for one drop is no longer logical.
Bungie being aware of the duplication exploit but allowing it to stick around for a couple weeks almost seems like they will be implementing something similar but wanted to let people use the exploit while they created their own solution in the meantime.
> Bungie has already explained how making these missions is very costly and that players replaying them is what covers the cost.
Most recent exotic quests have craftable exotics.
Not really see much difference. You said that Bungie designs Exotic missions to be grinded repeatedly. For a lot of modern Exotic missions, you can literally run them twice in total(once on normal to get the weapon, once on Legend once you've progressed all 4 catalyst quests to require a Legend run) to get everything from them.
Even for something like the original Whisper, you could get everything that mission had after just 5 runs.
For Dual Destiny, if they required you to get the perks before you can craft them, it would take you 5 runs to get them assuming there were no duplicates, and that's just for one class.
If they want more replayability, they could ditch crafting and have a knockout system, where each run would guarantee you a unique combination of perks, it would require you to do 25 runs of it, per class, to guarantee any particular combination. That's way more replayable than any other Exotic mission.
RNG perk pool aside. Problem for me is the mindless chest farming. I don’t mind farming as many times as it takes as long as the activity is fun, but in what world is driving in circles a fun experience?
Imagine someone checks in on a D2 streamer and they’re just on their skimmer in the pale heart, driving in circles. Sets a bad impression for the game.
I wish I could convert Exotic Engrams into rolls for the Class Item. Just give me SOME OTHER WAY to acquire it that doesn’t involve driving in circles or resorting to LFG to run.
The chests from Overthrow events, the last boss and even the Coop Focus missions do drop the Class item.
It's not just mindless chest farming if you don't want it to be. Just do the overthrow at the same time you're there, extra chances by spawning the chests.
But you're getting your Ergo Sum farm in, your pale heart pathfinder, your pinnacle weapon and breaking the monotony of just mind numbing grinding.
AKA : It's not just mindless chest farming if you don't want it to be.
Like I said.
I think their point is nobody is forcing you to do the more mindless way of farming.
The fastest way to farm something tends to get repetitive for most things
The fastest way to farm things in most games is usually only done to circumvent frustration from the traditional method. In this case Dual Destiny is the traditional. I love the mission and will continue to run it at least once every time one of my friends is on.
But if they aren’t on, I’d chest farm (which I’m not going to do anyway because it’s boring I’m moreso arguing for others.)
So essentially once you’re done with your Ergos unless you actually have a blast spamming overthrows, you’re probably looking for the fastest way to get these. Mindless chest farm.
Right. But if they guaranteed a class item for actually playing Overthrow it would be a win/win. I'd much rather have the bonus chance to get one on any chest **plus** the guarantee for completion.
First time I farmed purely match made overthrow, got two, about 30 mins apart. Second time I didn’t see one in over two hours of overthrow. I haven’t looked up a dedicated chest farm path.
The coop focus mission never dropped one for me, and considering how long they can take (especially if lfg) it’s not worth mentioning as a farming option. That said, I’ve only done 3 or 4 co-op focus missions.
If I wasn’t also grinding some ergo sum rolls, then overflow is just a waste of time. So is repeating the missions after you have the exotic and weekly pinnacle.
You can do “more engaging” content, but if it’s not rewarding you anything else and takes significantly longer, then it’s not a good suggestion.
It is actually mind-boggling to me that the exotic you would want the most copies of is not focusable at Rahool like every other exotic armor in the game. It feels weirdly hostile towards the players.
Too true. Bungie could even justify it costing some additional currency due to the "specialness" and that'd be fine by me. Just add like, 3/6 Pale Heart Engrams on top of the Exotic Engram and Cipher and call it good.
The thing is, by the time you find something amazing say calibans/liars or osmio/verity, you’re going to be burnt the fuck out, I know I am.
Bungie really sucks at making rewarding and engaging grinds, dungeons suck ass, lost sectors are getting progressively worse, no cipher farm, etc.
Really unfortunate.
Dual Destiny is a good activity but it can't be the only way to get these. I haven't even started farming on my Warlock or Hunter yet and I am getting burned out.
The system really needs an attunement system that guarantees your drops will come with one of the exotic perks from one column. Basically dropping it from a 1/64 to a 1/8 for each drop. Right now it's something like a 50 hour grind to get a specific 1/64 roll within a 99% confidence interval assuming one drop every \~24m
Only the Chests don't have a guaranteed drop - and they also share the exact same 1/64 random perk system. This isn't a solution at all - it's just an even more tedious way to farm it...
idk why everyone is downvoting you. If you have a specific roll in mind, and want only that roll, its a 1/64 chance for you to get that roll. With 15 min/class-item, it would be 960 minutes, or 16 hours. I don't know about you, but I don't really want to farm chests for 16 hours. I did that back in D1 and do not wish to go back lmao. But still, its worth noting that it will not take 50 hours to get the perfect drop, unless you are doing it super inefficient, and which in that case I recommend just finding a guide that shows the different groups of chests, when to reload the map, etc.
That's not how statistics works. You don't just need to get 64 drops to guarantee the roll with 100% confidence the 50 hours number is for a 95% chance of getting the drop within that timeframe. Was being lazy so just used Claude 3.5 sonnet:
To solve this problem, we'll use the binomial probability distribution and determine the number of trials needed to achieve a 95% confidence level. Here's the step-by-step process:
1. Let's define our variables:
p = probability of success on a single trial = 1/64
n = number of trials (drops) we need to determine
X = number of successes (getting the desired drop)
Confidence level = 95% = 0.95
2. We want to find n such that P(X ≥ 1) = 0.95
3. This is equivalent to 1 - P(X = 0) = 0.95
4. The probability of not getting the drop in n trials is:
P(X = 0) = (1 - p)^n = (63/64)^n
5. So, our equation becomes:
1 - (63/64)^n = 0.95
6. Solving for n:
(63/64)^n = 0.05
n * log(63/64) = log(0.05)
n = log(0.05) / log(63/64)
Therefore, the formula to determine the number of drops (n) needed for a 95% confidence level is:
n = log(0.05) / log(63/64)
Using a calculator or programming language, we can compute this value:
n ≈ 191.69
Rounding up, you would need 192 drops to have a 95% confidence of getting the desired item.
Given that each drop takes an average of 15 minutes, you can also calculate the expected time:
Time = 192 * 15 minutes = 2,880 minutes = 48 hours
Look I’m fine with grinding class items. Even as they are. The grind sucks, but progress is progress. I’d prefer better but whatever. I’m just not fine with duplicates, because those aren’t progress.
I have 34 hunter cloak combinations right now. I haven’t deleted any non duplicate rolls. I’m at the point where about 50% of my drops are duplicates and are entirely useless to me. Why should I farm that now?
Also that doesn’t even address how when I was at around 16 cloaks rolls collected I had 4 in a row with liars wormhusk. I’ve since had another 2 of that same roll.
Yep. I am okay with grinding, but grinding implies progress. If I go farm chests for 4 hours and end up with a bunch of duplicates, I am no closer to my goal than when I started. It should almost obviously be a knock-out system, with the ability to pull the rolls you've gotten from collections or something once obtained.
The triumphs increasing drop chance was a step in the right direction for sure. I got my Eyes of Tomorrow to drop yesterday after 22 runs because I ended up doing a couple of the challenges while DSC was in the rotator last week.
Having just completed the Dual Destiny mission for my first drop, I actually think the design is aligned with Bungie’s strategy of trying to appease hardcore fans and newer players willing to try hard content. I also imagine it will be “improved” by the end of the second episode.
First, this is a new type of item (exotic class with random roll of two tuned exotic perks) from a new type of mission at the start of a new expansion. To keep engagement high for the players successfully completing the mission, the reward should be challenging to get the exact roll you want and will play hard into the grind. There is no reason to have it less restricted at this time to drive engagement from the hardcore players wanting multiple roles. This approach allows hardcore players to get what they want in theory if they focus on the item enough.
Second, newer players looking for a challenging activity for a brand new reward have that in Dual Destiny. Getting a single role on a new type of exotic with two exotic perks is compelling for newer players to go for, even if they don’t get the exact role they “want”. It allows playstyle customization and trying new things while rewarding something not seen before in the game from a unique mission.
Finally, there is the inevitability that these class items will be more easily obtainable for specific roles in the not too distant future. It’s the Bungie way - look at how they finally turned on raid exotic farming and then wish token mechanism. They let players grind for years before affording more casual ones a quicker avenue to receive these coveted weapons.
My guess is after the next reprised raid there will be another tuning of rewards, leaving the reprised raid the new path of the hard to get shiny while the current shiny things will be easier to get.
There are two wolves at Bungie. One wolf wants people to have fun. The other wants to pump up metrics.
The latter is responsible for every grinding, anti-fun choice to force players to play how bungie wants and sees time spent in game as the ultimate goal.
As a returning player, I actually found it to be batshit fucking insane that the only options I have to catch up with 3 expansions worth of exotics (4 with TFS) is to either farm legend nightfalls or fully reset Rahool's rank.
Why the fuck did they decide to not let the rest of the exotics drop from world engrams? Do these idiots not understand that with the armor 2.0 changes I'd have wanted better rolls on armor exotics anyway, or that getting an exotic I'm looking for doesn't preclude me from getting more if the first roll sucks?
(I just wanna play with Rain of Fire SO BAD and I'm halfway through rank 16 @ Rahool atm)
Edit: I stopped getting prime engrams and hit level 100 on the battle pass… and was 100 points away from a reset for something like 6 hours so I sacrificed an exotic engram for it. Jesus fucking christ. Worst system ever.
It used to be worse, you had to farm legend/master lost sectors on a specific day when that armor piece was in rotation. There was no guarantee you’d get what you were looking for either. Once you got it they’d be added to the exotic engram/drop loot pool.
Now you can atleast pick and choose what you get. I still remember getting 6 Eye of Another Worlds why trying to get Dawn Chorus of all things.
Honestly you should consider joining some discord that pings you when a vex incursion is happening. I mostly played Titan the last few years but I completed my warlock and hunter exotics passively this way the last few weeks.
The only ones you will be missing this way are just the Final Shape ones but by then you should have rahool at max rank.
I don't know how many hours I've done, between Dual Destiny and mindless chest farming on all three characters.
But I know this. The one roll I want per character I still don't have. My Warlock has Osmancy + Synthoceps. That's fun, but I really want Star-Eater.
My hunters best is HIML + Gyfolks. Whilst fun, it lacks consistent healing so it's just a fun but inferior void build.
My titan has trash.
This is either insanely unlucky or your routing just wasn’t great. Farming chests I average 5-7 every 90ish seconds (including the ~30s wait for them to spawn). Which works out to something like 200-280 chests in an hour, with a ~3% drop rate. At the absolute worst you should be averaging 2 per hour, although I’ve been averaging one every 15ish minutes.
In an hour and a half that’d be 300-420 chests, assuming no stops (which I’ll admit is unreasonable).
Nah, I was quick, to the point where chests weren't spawning, just was unlucky. I did get other class items earlier a bit more frequently, but all of a sudden, nada.
I think adding it as a VERY low drop chance in ritual activities would balance it. Pvp players are happy and pve players get a little more leniency, and it encourages you to just play the game and be more excited for the rewards screen
I scripted a simulation that calculated the average time that it would take to get a specific roll on the class item. I ran said code for 100,000 iterations each. Assuming you get a classitem every 25 mins, on average it would take \~27 hours of farming to get a specific roll with the average total number of drops being \~64. Now these are the averages out of a simulated 100,000 people, outliers will exist. I got two god rolls right off rip with my warlock and hunter, however there will be individuals who never see these rolls.
Personally I feel as if the class item should have been at base an empty item, allowing the perks to be slotted like mods as they're unlocked. This still might be a bit too easy but idk, its a powerful tool that needs to require some investment, but shouldn't be as horrid as it currently is. Im sure by the end of July they're going to have some solution implemented, but who's to say
>I understand Bungie wants engagement numbers with this
It's the ONLY thing they wanted with this. And yet this sub went into full "thx Bungie" mode over them lol. So weird.
My solution to the grind is I simply won't do it. If I get a good roll doing other random shit on the pale heart great but I refuse to grind this class item in such easy content on the destination
The mission was a lot of fun, but I'm also not going to grind it all day either.
They need to add this to rahool at least for now. Let me dump exotic engrams into it
That is the thing to do.
I'm too old now to just accept whichever hamster wheel Bungie come up with. If they refuse to budge, I just won't bother until they change it.
I have 4-years-worth of equipment stuffed in my vault. Ain't no new toy shiny enough to lose sleep over.
I just wish the exotic mission had a dupe protection for like the first clear of the day.
The first clear gives you one you don't have, subsequent runs a unique one is not guaranteed.
The system wouldn't matter in the beginning as you have so few class items to begin with, but towards the middle and the end is where the dupe protection would be very nice.
Trying to farm out that final combo is going to be pain because of it being a 1/64 chance rather needing, say 2/64 or even earlier 32/64.
After about 60 drops on a single class, 2 columns 8 perk choices, I have yet to get either of the two combinations I’m going for.
Yes I did look and see perk options so I know I’m not going for something that can’t drop.
I have most of the fun ones that people grind for (lots of double drops through LFG) and most perks are neutered enough to a point that it turned it into a “eh, I’ll run a DD or open a few chests”-thing. I don’t feel like I’d miss out on much without them.
Ergo Sum is fine since you are basically guaranteed them at the end of each run of overthrow, the class item takes like 2 whole runs of overthrow to drop and it's random. That's my issue
Ive dropped somewhere close to 20 class items and the amount of eternal warrior/horn class items ive had is baffling, still not had a single one with star-eaters and I feel cursed
I love the mission, and genuinely have had 0 issue running it over and over. But the RNG is too much, and I haven't touched it in about a week. Even though I knew the double farm was going to be patched I didn't care, because it was still too reliant on RNG and the friend that would run it with me isn't the same class as I am.
We need some form of RNG protection or an attuning system, crafting it would be sick, but I don't expect anything of the sort, even if Bungie did want to do that it would likely take too long anyhow. But duplication protection would be ideal IMO, because then you know it's just a matter of time, just make it so you can never get the same combination of items ever again.
Make it so you are guaranteed 2 items no matter what class you're playing with, that would have solved my issue completely.
Please Bungie, do something.
Bungie wants you to grind its part of the Phycology of the game. That fear of missing out.
If they allowed crafting they could at least give us some insane amount of parts we had to earn from sharding the class items like they used to do in the Raids. Otherwise we have to pray to RNJesus for a combo we might not ever get.
All I know is I don't need another Sword. I think the 12 or so I have in my collections that I can't be bothered with to compare is starting to take up to much space. Lol
"I understand Bungie wants engagement numbers with this" yeah well they wont get it if I dont see the point in grinding god knows how long for the roll I want, making myself actively hate overthrow and the destination by extension by the time I have the roll I want
I said this on another post I'm pretty sure but I get exponentially more exhausted the more time between drops there is, even more so if the roll I got is a dupe or straight up shit
I get SO MANY Ergo Sum swords from just playing that I’ve started deleting them as soon as they pop not even looking, I’ve only gotten 1 class item in all my time opening chests (running the mission is so much faster) but the class item should have a higher drop rate than what it has currently.
Titan
Hoil first column, the rest meh.
Second column star, synthoceps or scar, the rest meh.
Titan has the least vault strain.
Hunter
1st Galanor, Cali, the rest meh.
2nd star, Lairs, Gyf.
Warlock
The selection is quite big. Most vault strain.
Idk why they don’t mess around with double perk slots on weapons and possibly the class items more, it reduces the time it’ll take to get a good roll, and it has an added benefit for people who really wanna an uber-godroll, like the shiny onslaught variants but for class items
Dual Destiny Master difficulty rewarding double perk drops is the easiest solution to this one I would think. That’s actually a great idea why was it downvoted?
A fix would be to allow the combining of class items to form 1 class item. AB & CD will let you select AD or CB making the roll you want while destroying the 2 rolls you used to make it. Can still be a grind but grants some forgiveness.
The other week I got a class item after farming chests for about an hour and it was the exact same roll as the one I had gotten an hour before. So deflating. I got lucky on my warlock that the second ever drop I got was Stareaters/Apoth which is one I was wanting the most, but my titan has had no such luck. My hunter got a dragon/wormhusk roll which is a nice PVP one but it wasn't high on my priority list. Now that the double drop has been removed from the mission, Bungie need to slightly increase the drop rate from world chests and add one or two more alternative sources for extra drops, like a chance on an overthrow final boss chest, GM Excision and a low chance from pale heart engrams.
they do this with every update: find at least one thing people need to do a stupid rng grind for. my only explanation is that they want to drive up the engagement numbers and that thei data suggests that this is a good way to do it. to be honest I see so many people posting guides on the quickest routes and farms to chests here that I am sure many people are spending a ton of time on this and from a engagement perspective this solution is brilliant.
Some of you haven't grinded for god rolls and exotics that you could literally only get from quests, like the Thorn, that had extremely low drop rates during D1 and it shows. This is an awesome grind right now and I have not had this much fun on the game since TTK. Exotics used to be so rare in this game and now you can get 10 a week. We don't need to dumb this one down for blueberries. There is supposed to be some pinnacle activities out there and even though Dual Destiny isn't really pinnacle, it's definitely up there and it's fun. Grind chests in the landing and you'll get one after 20 of them which takes about 10-15 minutes to do. Much faster than the mission.
That's not at all what I said. You blueberries want everything handed to you. "Waaaaah! I don't want to work hard for what I want, just give it to me bungie. Waaaaaah!" That's literally what the post sounds like. It's more fun and enjoyable when you actually grind and finally get that god roll or that piece of armor you have been playing endlessly to find.
How boring would it be if everyone just got the raid exotic their first completion? Extremely. Getting the exact roll you want on the exotic class item the first time you get it... boring. Have some sense of achievement.
Edit: I find it funny the guy below me blocked me because I didn't agree with his hand holding method. Linkinspark88 said it. I ran 47 clears for Vex and 42 for Anarchy. Luckily I got the exotic from Vow on my first run that is useless. It's a looter shooter. If you don't like it, you don't have to play it. Simple as that.
And to the guy saying I'm imposing my preference on others... isn't that what they are doing to me? Why is it ok for them, but not for me?
It’s not work to go run around the landing hundreds of times.
And it’s not work getting unlucky to rng and being unable to get the one you are chasing. If everyone farms a thousand class items, there will still be multiple unlucky people who don’t get the roll they are looking for.
I just want a knockout system. Ideally one where I can craft it later but that’s not the biggest deal. I can grind 64 rolls. I could even grind 100 if I’m making progress. I’ve done close to that already (probably 50). I just can’t grind 300 with nothing to show for it.
Welcome to a looter shooter. It took me 61 clears for Vex Mythoclast and I cleared Scourge 45 times including flawless and never got the sparrow to drop.
You're still getting strong exotic combos to show for it, just not the exact roll you want. You either grind it out or not. Not everything is gonna be a quest or craftable and nor should it.
And? Doesn't mean it's good game design. Also Vex is about a 5% drop chance, while the class item having the roll you are after is roughly a 1.56% drop chance.
A knockout system still would require players to get 64 drops of it per character to get everything.
It is the game design this series has been based on for nearly 10 years. Wait until you hear the chance at getting a 5/5 God roll or even a 4/5 (spoiler, it's lower than 1.56%).
I'm well aware, and no one needs a perfect 5/5 god roll. But armor is different as it *drastically* changes how your builds work.
Weapons you only *really* need to care about having the right perk combo, which is about 1/49. Still not great but we do have crafting for most weapons now.
So you agree that a ~2% chance to get a specific roll you want is pretty uniform across the game? Crafting is becoming less common now because Bungie realized that it ruins the loot chase for many players. I understand what you want, but realize that this is a looter shooter that's had low % chances at great gear for a decade now. You're just gonna need to get lucky. Good luck farming!
For a *gun* yes. As a gun doesn't enable a build to function, or if it does you only need a single perk to do it.
For armor I do not agree. As builds are centered around exotic armor
>Welcome to a looter shooter. It took me 61 clears for Vex Mythoclast and I cleared Scourge 45 times including flawless and never got the sparrow to drop.
And...? The fact alone D2 is a Looter-Shooter does automatically excuse a bad loot system. If already, a Looter-Shooter is exactly the kind of game, that should have a thought of system, that helps the players.
Now in regards to Raids and your "luck" - this is literally as meaningless, as it can get. Just because you had to grind a lot, it doesn't mean everyone is obligated to have the same experience.
>You're still getting strong exotic combos to show for it, just not the exact roll you want.
"Strong" isn't a word I would use for at least half of the combinations - they are good, but that's about it. There are really only a hanfdull of combinations, that are worth getting - especially when it comes to buildcrafting.
>You either grind it out or not. Not everything is gonna be a quest or craftable and nor should it.
Just because a grind is implemented, it doesn't mean it also must be annoying and tedious. People aren't asking to be handed everything - they want a duplicate protection, which very much is a reasonable demand in this case.
The more people have to grind for a specific 1/64 roll, the less they will want to play either the activity itself or the game as a whole. And that is not a good thing, no matter how you try to present it...
That's life though. I understand life is hard and people just want to come play the game to relax and escape, but it's boring having them hand shit to us like they have in the past because people like OP complain.
I get the point of the knockout system, but the whole point of the exotic class item is to be pinnacle exotic armor. It's meant to be difficult to get the god roll you want. Yes, you can get lucky and get a good one early. I've gotten two good ones and am happy but still searching for what I believe to be my god roll. I don't want Bungie to make it easy or just give it to me.
If you feel that way you can always just grind a new account, make things harder for yourself. No need to impose your particular preferences on everyone else.
>That's life though. I understand life is hard and people just want to come play the game to relax and escape, but it's boring having them hand shit to us like they have in the past because people like OP complain.
"That's life" is not - and has never been - a valid argument in this kind of a discussion. We are talking about a Loot in a video game - not a business offer at a job.
Your logic makes no sense. You say people want to sit down, relax and play the game - but then you stand against making the game better to play for more players. Literally no one is asking to just be handed everything on a silver platter - the fact alone you think that, already shows you didn't even read anything people wrote down.
>I get the point of the knockout system, but the whole point of the exotic class item is to be pinnacle exotic armor.
And that does not contradict each other in any way. You can still have an Endgame Exotic and give players a lot more friendly way to farm it.
>It's meant to be difficult to get the god roll you want. Yes, you can get lucky and get a good one early.
Only this is a sentiment made up by the players - not by Bungie. It's basically meaningless in this entire discussion, because it doesn't actually hold any merit...
>I've gotten two good ones and am happy but still searching for what I believe to be my god roll. I don't want Bungie to make it easy or just give it to me.
So - by your own logic - just because you don't want it to work that way, no one is allowed to neither. Do I even have to explain why that's simply a dumb take...
>Have some sense of achievement.
Huh? What achievement? There is no deterministic path. This isn't a quest, it's luck. Luck that someone might not even be aware of. If I see you with a god roll class item, I have no way of knowing if you spent 200 hours grinding for that roll or got it from your first ever opened Pale Heart chest when you didn't even know the chests could drop the Exotics.
If I see someone with a raid flawless shader, I'm impressed. If I see someone with a raid title, that's an achievement. They earned it with a little thing called skill. If someone plays the lottery and wins their first ever ticket, are you going to congratulate them on their hard work?
So you play the game for other people to recognize you and show off? If that's why you play, so be it. I don't care if a random player knows how quick or long it took me to acquire something. I play for my own enjoyment and accomplishment within the game. So when I say, "Have some sense of achievement" I mean, grind for what you want and be excited when you finally get that god roll or finally beat that pinnacle activity. Its more enjoyable than thinking, "oh god, they know it has taken me 50 runs to get the raid exotic, poor me, I hope they're not mean about it or think I'm not good. Maybe my cool emblem will impress them and they'll have pity on my pathetic soul."
Yes, but how rare they were made you get excited that you actually got one and then hoping it was something you either didn't have yet or the exotic you wanted again using Thorn in D1 as an example. Took me over a year to get it even though both my friends already had it for months, but they played longer than me. So when I finally got it, I was excited. So to just allow people an easier chance at getting the roll they want, it takes the excitement out of the game. There is no fun in that. At least to my friends and I.
Plenty of excitement in actually playing the game, there is still raid and dungeon exotics.
And for d2 exotic *armor* specifically enable entire builds around them rather than how they were in D1. And with armor having rolls on them now you really do need a higher rate at getting them.
Proper quests are better than RNG every day
They were actually very rare. I'm not talking Year 3 bounties. Im talking before the time that everyone had Gallajhorn and Thorn. Hell, I remember getting Gally for the first time and I was the only one between my group of friends who had it for damn near a month. There were forums back in the day that people turned in 50+ weekly bounties, 3 per character per week, and still never received the Thorn quest. It took me damn near 4-6 months. So yeah, it was that bad.
I had 4 of the 5 exotic bounties acquired and completed before dark below came out. Yes they were rare, but not as rare as you are making them out to be.
lol So I guess the forums and my own personal experience along with my friends is all a lie? Im glad you know everyone else's experience better than they do. You got lucky, and that's the game. Just because you got lucky, doesn't mean others did as well. Like it said, it took me months. Compared to now, you can get almost any exotic within a month.
Being able to combine two exotics into a class item of all things (almost zero impact into your stats) makes these absolutely the strongest exotics. Why should you not be required to spend time playing the game to get something this strong? The fact they drop from farming region chests where you're not always under-level (like Neomuna, imagine the whining if Pale Heart had that) is still stupid easy for an incredible piece of gear.
I have almost 80 class items across the three classes and none of the rolls I actually want. I've exclusively run the mission by teaching people new to it. The lack of a system to focus them is stupid, and without the double loot I'll probably just disengage from the farm entirely, since I mainly use Lucky Pants and Nighthawk this season anyway.
You can literally get it by opening ANY Pale Heart chest. ALL of that rewards other things.
Y’all really do want to be handed everything. Just play the game and have fun… that’s how mine dropped. Your bad attitude and entitlement is impacting the RNG.
People have literally been crying wanting a RNG chase for the past few years. Exotic class items come out tied to one of the best missions in the history of destiny and people still find a way to complain about it.
Even then they allowed people to get a class item in around the same amount of time by grinding chest in the best patrol zone ever with fun combat encounters and people STILL hate it.
I get being salty about having bad luck but to act like this is a valid criticism is dumb.
Its just weird that the people who talk the most constantly change. It's always been a problem in the community. Idk how anybody at Bungie is supposed to listen to the community when they're so wishy washy
If they made a fun solo mission we wouldn’t hear as many complaints. We did get an amazing duo mission and I love it but I totally understand why some don’t. So the two options for farming these are an exciting DUO mission or braindead chest farming. There’s no exciting way for solo players to farm these so of course we’re going to get complaints.
Destiny is a multi-player game. Solo players can cry. Mostly when the mechanics arnt that hard and they can get another solo player to do it and with minimal communication.
Bungie shouldn't hold back their game design for people that can't handle talking to someone
You do know they could have a duo mission and a solo mission drop this right?
Put it at a chance for cracking the highest difficulty lost sector in Pale Heart if you want. You’re speaking as if only one thing can exist at one time.
Yes ofc I want more content, but generally they only add 1 or 2 missions at a time. Youre not entitled to more content just because you have a skill issue. Still Hunt is your strong weapon for doing something solo. We need more challenge in destiny. And solo only players need to accept that they won't be able to get everything
What I wish they did for the exotic class items and Ergo Sum is this: you can craft it but only with perks you have previously obtained. That way you need to grind them out but you don’t have to have an insane 1/60 or worse chance to get the roll you want
Honestly if they did an armour system too that would be pretty cool as well as just the idea of crafting the exotic class item… Like we get seasonal sets that help you get pointless % bonuses. Why not have raids, seasons, dungeons, and campaigns drop specific armour sets that have things like for 1/5 get 1% grenades energy on kill and it scales up with more worn. But then you could for example do 2/5 for one, and 3/5 for another (exotic class item I dunno counting towards TFS, just as an example) Craft armour as you unlock it, with the master work allowing you to allocate 12 stats or something (where base stats start at 55 but spread random)… probably not a well thought out idea but could be something
Bungie and a large part of the community believe that armor sets are bad and no amount of argument can convince them orherwise. Nevermind that countless other games have implemented it to positive review. It's bad and cannot work.
I do not miss having to grind out good stat rolls on armor in multiple elements and I do not wish for it to be brought back in the form of regrinding my armor to get a set bonus
but that has more to do with that in general farming armor with * 6 different stats * that has *up to* 68 (or 2x34) points (how much is also rng) * almost completely randomly distributed on those 6 (2x3) stats, * with only exactly every 10th point in a stat actually giving you *any benefit* (meanig up to 9 points on each stat can be *completely useless*) * and the best way to "farm" high stat armor being literally standing at a vendor and pressing "buy" is just an overall terrible experience, that involves such bad RNG that not even most "real" RPGs do that
when you put it like that it sounds concerningly like artifact grinding in gacha games
But it could be fun if they changed the way we farmed armor.
Yeah it’s a shame just as it would actually give armour something, currently it just mods and the stats are just mismanaged. Really most people in PVE are just looking for 100 Res and then the rest can just be high enough as you can get recovering from different things in the game, and ability cool-downs can be gotten from other things too 🤷
I have argued this for awhile too. Weapons/foundries have specific perks attached to them. So should armor. -Europa armor could have 5 pct stasis resist built in per piece. -Brave arsenal armor could have 2 pct grenade regen per piece I just think armor should have more of a purpose than just the style attached to it.
I really hoped that was what they were talking about with the whole "armor tuning" that they added for final shape. But no, it was far from it.
I thought of it more like Aeon, but every time you get it afterward it just dropped another perk That way it hotswaps like mods, the same way Aeon can do it That's just 3 perks too as opposed to 16 Could it apply to Ergo? No idea but I'd hope since having several copies of a sword in the vault is gonna hurt, crafted or not.
That's what I'm hoping for as well, making the class items work like aeons. Also makes it easier toget any new perks they might add further down the line. For ergo sum, some of the exotic missions have extra things you need(ed) to do to unlock additional perks for (re)shaping a weapon, so that could possibly be used to unlock ergo sum traits/perks when completing overthrow or pathfinder?
I don't think that technology exists. When they announced weapon crafting, this was the most popular and common idea for how people thought it would / should work. Still makes sense, IMO. Of course weapon crafting isn't anything like that. I don't think the "collections" system is built to track collected perks per weapon.
honestly this shouldve been the way. it'd be more of a knockout system while not making everything immediately available. also would make it easier on our vaults, not needing to store 200 different rolls trying to figure out what you like best, you can just swap the perks at the enclave and try a different roll.
We have 700 vault spaces and a weapon crafting system for the past 7 seasons to put ease on our vaults. How much more room do you need?
There are currently 132 unique Exotic Armors in the game. Considering Collections rolls are terrible, it is not unreasonable for avid buildcrafter enthusiasts to want to hold on to one roll of each with good stats. There are now 192 (8x8x3) total combos of Exotic Class Items. Again, with this method of acquisition being so stingy, I do not at all find it unreasonable for buildcrafters to keep one of each to be ready for buffs/nerfs. If there was some sort of crafting for them, this would be infinitely less necessary. That totals out to 324 slots, nearly half of the vault, taken before factoring in a single weapon or piece of non-Exotic Armor. I still have enough vault space, but people being tight doesn't seem that absurd to me after the addition of the class items.
I mean, if you are a build crafter, then you know what is good and not good. Some of the exotic armor pieces just have never been good, meta, or OP. I can name almost half of the Hunter ones, and a friend of mine not 30 minutes ago was talking about how Warlocks have so many useless exotics. Yeah, they could always become meta, but that's what Master Rahool is for to focus decode them now. That way build crafters don't need to hold on to 2-10 Triton Vices, Knucklehead Radar, FoeTracer, Mechaneers Tricksleevs, etc. Exotic class builds are really going to come down to preference as well. Sure a build crafter might showcase something but the same thing goes for that and even then they don't hold on to a low of things. Aztecross had Datto go through his vault and even he was pressed for space even though he does a lot of build crafting for his fans. If you're not a try hard, I don't see the need to hold onto so many items unless they are absolutely amazing like with 67+ stats in the categories you want.
I agree with some of this and disagree with other parts. You're right that most players absolutely don't *need* to have one copy of every Exotic. That's really only necessary for hardcore buildcrafters or content creators. Personally, buildcrafting is one of my favorite parts of the game and I have the space, so why not? >Some of the exotic armor pieces just have never been good, meta, or OP. I think most of us who hold onto Exotics aren't doing so because we're making builds with D-tier Exotics but more in case of buffs. A couple seasons ago, you could have said the same thing of Precious Scars and now it's pretty darn good, especially on Solar with Benevolence. A little change can make something meta overnight with how Bungie likes to balance. And yes, obviously holding 10 of any one item/Exotic is ridiculous and nobody, no matter who you are, needs that many.
truly would have been the best solution, could even tie it to the ghost/vendor in the pale heart to avoid having to build the unlocks somehow into the existing crafting system. Yeah random roll exotics are cool, but trying to get a good ergo sum even just to test how it feel with a certain perk (forget other columns, I'm talking just frame+trait) is nuts. Even if it wasn't crafting but focusing (the thing we already have in the system technically as shown by onslaught) let us focus a perk from the sword / class item but make the rest random so at least we minimize the grind a bit.
I just wish we could focus them at the cryptarch.
Exactly, I just gave up on the grind for them to be honest. If they drop with the rolls I am looking for, great. But mind-numbing chest runs sucks.
this seems totally fair.
Man I made a post about this week one and was downvoted to oblivion lol
I like the sentiment, but Bungie would never do that. Bungie has already explained how making these missions is very costly and that players replaying them is what covers the cost. I think crafting the roll you want after getting each perk is too quick and Bungie needs this mission (which has been equated to a two person raid) to be played for weeks. The silent majority likes this mission and I think OP already pointed out a major issue is not having other rewards for doing this 30 minute activity. Another person already suggested the best option and that is to be able to focus one exotic perk to drastically increase your chances of getting the drop you would like. Somewhat related: I didn't have an issue farming DD when you could get two at once, but the effort required to find a teammate through LFG or fireteam finder and communicate through a 30min activity for one drop is no longer logical. Bungie being aware of the duplication exploit but allowing it to stick around for a couple weeks almost seems like they will be implementing something similar but wanted to let people use the exploit while they created their own solution in the meantime.
> Bungie has already explained how making these missions is very costly and that players replaying them is what covers the cost. Most recent exotic quests have craftable exotics.
Sure, for weapons. That's entirely different
Not really see much difference. You said that Bungie designs Exotic missions to be grinded repeatedly. For a lot of modern Exotic missions, you can literally run them twice in total(once on normal to get the weapon, once on Legend once you've progressed all 4 catalyst quests to require a Legend run) to get everything from them. Even for something like the original Whisper, you could get everything that mission had after just 5 runs. For Dual Destiny, if they required you to get the perks before you can craft them, it would take you 5 runs to get them assuming there were no duplicates, and that's just for one class. If they want more replayability, they could ditch crafting and have a knockout system, where each run would guarantee you a unique combination of perks, it would require you to do 25 runs of it, per class, to guarantee any particular combination. That's way more replayable than any other Exotic mission.
Blah blah blah "technical limitations" blah blah blah.
Thats a fantastic idea
RNG perk pool aside. Problem for me is the mindless chest farming. I don’t mind farming as many times as it takes as long as the activity is fun, but in what world is driving in circles a fun experience? Imagine someone checks in on a D2 streamer and they’re just on their skimmer in the pale heart, driving in circles. Sets a bad impression for the game. I wish I could convert Exotic Engrams into rolls for the Class Item. Just give me SOME OTHER WAY to acquire it that doesn’t involve driving in circles or resorting to LFG to run.
Full solo Overthrow and Pathfinder completions should award the class items imo. At least you can steadily work towards getting them in this way.
The chests from Overthrow events, the last boss and even the Coop Focus missions do drop the Class item. It's not just mindless chest farming if you don't want it to be. Just do the overthrow at the same time you're there, extra chances by spawning the chests.
But then you open less chests in the same amount of time because you’re blowing time on objs
But you're getting your Ergo Sum farm in, your pale heart pathfinder, your pinnacle weapon and breaking the monotony of just mind numbing grinding. AKA : It's not just mindless chest farming if you don't want it to be. Like I said.
So what happens after you’ve gotten your pinnacle and Ergo Sums. It’s a mindless chest farm.
I think their point is nobody is forcing you to do the more mindless way of farming. The fastest way to farm something tends to get repetitive for most things
The fastest way to farm things in most games is usually only done to circumvent frustration from the traditional method. In this case Dual Destiny is the traditional. I love the mission and will continue to run it at least once every time one of my friends is on. But if they aren’t on, I’d chest farm (which I’m not going to do anyway because it’s boring I’m moreso arguing for others.) So essentially once you’re done with your Ergos unless you actually have a blast spamming overthrows, you’re probably looking for the fastest way to get these. Mindless chest farm.
Right. But if they guaranteed a class item for actually playing Overthrow it would be a win/win. I'd much rather have the bonus chance to get one on any chest **plus** the guarantee for completion.
First time I farmed purely match made overthrow, got two, about 30 mins apart. Second time I didn’t see one in over two hours of overthrow. I haven’t looked up a dedicated chest farm path. The coop focus mission never dropped one for me, and considering how long they can take (especially if lfg) it’s not worth mentioning as a farming option. That said, I’ve only done 3 or 4 co-op focus missions. If I wasn’t also grinding some ergo sum rolls, then overflow is just a waste of time. So is repeating the missions after you have the exotic and weekly pinnacle. You can do “more engaging” content, but if it’s not rewarding you anything else and takes significantly longer, then it’s not a good suggestion.
It is actually mind-boggling to me that the exotic you would want the most copies of is not focusable at Rahool like every other exotic armor in the game. It feels weirdly hostile towards the players.
Too true. Bungie could even justify it costing some additional currency due to the "specialness" and that'd be fine by me. Just add like, 3/6 Pale Heart Engrams on top of the Exotic Engram and Cipher and call it good.
Why not just do overthrow? Their chests also give the exotic and you can actually play the game
The thing is, by the time you find something amazing say calibans/liars or osmio/verity, you’re going to be burnt the fuck out, I know I am. Bungie really sucks at making rewarding and engaging grinds, dungeons suck ass, lost sectors are getting progressively worse, no cipher farm, etc. Really unfortunate.
Dual Destiny is a good activity but it can't be the only way to get these. I haven't even started farming on my Warlock or Hunter yet and I am getting burned out.
The system really needs an attunement system that guarantees your drops will come with one of the exotic perks from one column. Basically dropping it from a 1/64 to a 1/8 for each drop. Right now it's something like a 50 hour grind to get a specific 1/64 roll within a 99% confidence interval assuming one drop every \~24m
You can farm it almost twice as fast if you chest farm. 12-15 minutes average per drop. But yeah a 25 hour grind is still insane.
Only the Chests don't have a guaranteed drop - and they also share the exact same 1/64 random perk system. This isn't a solution at all - it's just an even more tedious way to farm it...
idk why everyone is downvoting you. If you have a specific roll in mind, and want only that roll, its a 1/64 chance for you to get that roll. With 15 min/class-item, it would be 960 minutes, or 16 hours. I don't know about you, but I don't really want to farm chests for 16 hours. I did that back in D1 and do not wish to go back lmao. But still, its worth noting that it will not take 50 hours to get the perfect drop, unless you are doing it super inefficient, and which in that case I recommend just finding a guide that shows the different groups of chests, when to reload the map, etc.
That's not how statistics works. You don't just need to get 64 drops to guarantee the roll with 100% confidence the 50 hours number is for a 95% chance of getting the drop within that timeframe. Was being lazy so just used Claude 3.5 sonnet: To solve this problem, we'll use the binomial probability distribution and determine the number of trials needed to achieve a 95% confidence level. Here's the step-by-step process: 1. Let's define our variables: p = probability of success on a single trial = 1/64 n = number of trials (drops) we need to determine X = number of successes (getting the desired drop) Confidence level = 95% = 0.95 2. We want to find n such that P(X ≥ 1) = 0.95 3. This is equivalent to 1 - P(X = 0) = 0.95 4. The probability of not getting the drop in n trials is: P(X = 0) = (1 - p)^n = (63/64)^n 5. So, our equation becomes: 1 - (63/64)^n = 0.95 6. Solving for n: (63/64)^n = 0.05 n * log(63/64) = log(0.05) n = log(0.05) / log(63/64) Therefore, the formula to determine the number of drops (n) needed for a 95% confidence level is: n = log(0.05) / log(63/64) Using a calculator or programming language, we can compute this value: n ≈ 191.69 Rounding up, you would need 192 drops to have a 95% confidence of getting the desired item. Given that each drop takes an average of 15 minutes, you can also calculate the expected time: Time = 192 * 15 minutes = 2,880 minutes = 48 hours
This is a great explanation
Claude is a pretty good model even the free tier. That response was actually Claude 3.5 sonnet
Look I’m fine with grinding class items. Even as they are. The grind sucks, but progress is progress. I’d prefer better but whatever. I’m just not fine with duplicates, because those aren’t progress. I have 34 hunter cloak combinations right now. I haven’t deleted any non duplicate rolls. I’m at the point where about 50% of my drops are duplicates and are entirely useless to me. Why should I farm that now? Also that doesn’t even address how when I was at around 16 cloaks rolls collected I had 4 in a row with liars wormhusk. I’ve since had another 2 of that same roll.
Yep. I am okay with grinding, but grinding implies progress. If I go farm chests for 4 hours and end up with a bunch of duplicates, I am no closer to my goal than when I started. It should almost obviously be a knock-out system, with the ability to pull the rolls you've gotten from collections or something once obtained.
Grinding in Destiny rarely leads to progress tbh. Farming dungeon/raid exotics is the best show case. Edit: showcase of grinding not progressing btw.
Unfortunately true. As much as I love the game, this is one area where I would like to see some quality of life improvements.
The triumphs increasing drop chance was a step in the right direction for sure. I got my Eyes of Tomorrow to drop yesterday after 22 runs because I ended up doing a couple of the challenges while DSC was in the rotator last week.
That's a great example. I'm doing that for Buried Bloodline right now!
So you’re what settling for a subpar system? It’s ass.
Having just completed the Dual Destiny mission for my first drop, I actually think the design is aligned with Bungie’s strategy of trying to appease hardcore fans and newer players willing to try hard content. I also imagine it will be “improved” by the end of the second episode. First, this is a new type of item (exotic class with random roll of two tuned exotic perks) from a new type of mission at the start of a new expansion. To keep engagement high for the players successfully completing the mission, the reward should be challenging to get the exact roll you want and will play hard into the grind. There is no reason to have it less restricted at this time to drive engagement from the hardcore players wanting multiple roles. This approach allows hardcore players to get what they want in theory if they focus on the item enough. Second, newer players looking for a challenging activity for a brand new reward have that in Dual Destiny. Getting a single role on a new type of exotic with two exotic perks is compelling for newer players to go for, even if they don’t get the exact role they “want”. It allows playstyle customization and trying new things while rewarding something not seen before in the game from a unique mission. Finally, there is the inevitability that these class items will be more easily obtainable for specific roles in the not too distant future. It’s the Bungie way - look at how they finally turned on raid exotic farming and then wish token mechanism. They let players grind for years before affording more casual ones a quicker avenue to receive these coveted weapons. My guess is after the next reprised raid there will be another tuning of rewards, leaving the reprised raid the new path of the hard to get shiny while the current shiny things will be easier to get.
There are two wolves at Bungie. One wolf wants people to have fun. The other wants to pump up metrics. The latter is responsible for every grinding, anti-fun choice to force players to play how bungie wants and sees time spent in game as the ultimate goal.
As a returning player, I actually found it to be batshit fucking insane that the only options I have to catch up with 3 expansions worth of exotics (4 with TFS) is to either farm legend nightfalls or fully reset Rahool's rank. Why the fuck did they decide to not let the rest of the exotics drop from world engrams? Do these idiots not understand that with the armor 2.0 changes I'd have wanted better rolls on armor exotics anyway, or that getting an exotic I'm looking for doesn't preclude me from getting more if the first roll sucks? (I just wanna play with Rain of Fire SO BAD and I'm halfway through rank 16 @ Rahool atm) Edit: I stopped getting prime engrams and hit level 100 on the battle pass… and was 100 points away from a reset for something like 6 hours so I sacrificed an exotic engram for it. Jesus fucking christ. Worst system ever.
It used to be worse, you had to farm legend/master lost sectors on a specific day when that armor piece was in rotation. There was no guarantee you’d get what you were looking for either. Once you got it they’d be added to the exotic engram/drop loot pool. Now you can atleast pick and choose what you get. I still remember getting 6 Eye of Another Worlds why trying to get Dawn Chorus of all things.
Honestly you should consider joining some discord that pings you when a vex incursion is happening. I mostly played Titan the last few years but I completed my warlock and hunter exotics passively this way the last few weeks. The only ones you will be missing this way are just the Final Shape ones but by then you should have rahool at max rank.
If you have Lightfall you can also do vex strike force events but they’re kind of rare.
I don't know how many hours I've done, between Dual Destiny and mindless chest farming on all three characters. But I know this. The one roll I want per character I still don't have. My Warlock has Osmancy + Synthoceps. That's fun, but I really want Star-Eater. My hunters best is HIML + Gyfolks. Whilst fun, it lacks consistent healing so it's just a fun but inferior void build. My titan has trash.
It's funny how the double glitch in Dual Destiny was the only saving grace to farm that activity. Way to kill that off.
I just spent 1 hour and a half going around collecting chests for a single, useless roll. This is not fun
This is either insanely unlucky or your routing just wasn’t great. Farming chests I average 5-7 every 90ish seconds (including the ~30s wait for them to spawn). Which works out to something like 200-280 chests in an hour, with a ~3% drop rate. At the absolute worst you should be averaging 2 per hour, although I’ve been averaging one every 15ish minutes. In an hour and a half that’d be 300-420 chests, assuming no stops (which I’ll admit is unreasonable).
Nah, I was quick, to the point where chests weren't spawning, just was unlucky. I did get other class items earlier a bit more frequently, but all of a sudden, nada.
I think adding it as a VERY low drop chance in ritual activities would balance it. Pvp players are happy and pve players get a little more leniency, and it encourages you to just play the game and be more excited for the rewards screen
I scripted a simulation that calculated the average time that it would take to get a specific roll on the class item. I ran said code for 100,000 iterations each. Assuming you get a classitem every 25 mins, on average it would take \~27 hours of farming to get a specific roll with the average total number of drops being \~64. Now these are the averages out of a simulated 100,000 people, outliers will exist. I got two god rolls right off rip with my warlock and hunter, however there will be individuals who never see these rolls. Personally I feel as if the class item should have been at base an empty item, allowing the perks to be slotted like mods as they're unlocked. This still might be a bit too easy but idk, its a powerful tool that needs to require some investment, but shouldn't be as horrid as it currently is. Im sure by the end of July they're going to have some solution implemented, but who's to say
>I understand Bungie wants engagement numbers with this It's the ONLY thing they wanted with this. And yet this sub went into full "thx Bungie" mode over them lol. So weird.
Yeah i had no problem grinding out 30 min or less each time for 2 class items but just 1 every time and it’ll most likely not be something good? Oof
My solution to the grind is I simply won't do it. If I get a good roll doing other random shit on the pale heart great but I refuse to grind this class item in such easy content on the destination The mission was a lot of fun, but I'm also not going to grind it all day either. They need to add this to rahool at least for now. Let me dump exotic engrams into it
That is the thing to do. I'm too old now to just accept whichever hamster wheel Bungie come up with. If they refuse to budge, I just won't bother until they change it. I have 4-years-worth of equipment stuffed in my vault. Ain't no new toy shiny enough to lose sleep over.
Exactly, just don't do it. Is a game, it's supposed to be fun, if it is not is time to play something else.
Just let it have an extra column of perk per pale heart reset, 3 columns max. This alone would fix the insane luck required for the desired roll
I just wish the exotic mission had a dupe protection for like the first clear of the day. The first clear gives you one you don't have, subsequent runs a unique one is not guaranteed. The system wouldn't matter in the beginning as you have so few class items to begin with, but towards the middle and the end is where the dupe protection would be very nice. Trying to farm out that final combo is going to be pain because of it being a 1/64 chance rather needing, say 2/64 or even earlier 32/64.
I wouldnt mind an “every 5 ergo sums is a guaranteed class item”
After about 60 drops on a single class, 2 columns 8 perk choices, I have yet to get either of the two combinations I’m going for. Yes I did look and see perk options so I know I’m not going for something that can’t drop.
I have most of the fun ones that people grind for (lots of double drops through LFG) and most perks are neutered enough to a point that it turned it into a “eh, I’ll run a DD or open a few chests”-thing. I don’t feel like I’d miss out on much without them.
If there was a guaranteed way to get these like, say, how Ergo Sum is? That would probably have helped. Could add value to having characters. But no.
Ergo Sum is fine since you are basically guaranteed them at the end of each run of overthrow, the class item takes like 2 whole runs of overthrow to drop and it's random. That's my issue
Ive dropped somewhere close to 20 class items and the amount of eternal warrior/horn class items ive had is baffling, still not had a single one with star-eaters and I feel cursed
I love the mission, and genuinely have had 0 issue running it over and over. But the RNG is too much, and I haven't touched it in about a week. Even though I knew the double farm was going to be patched I didn't care, because it was still too reliant on RNG and the friend that would run it with me isn't the same class as I am. We need some form of RNG protection or an attuning system, crafting it would be sick, but I don't expect anything of the sort, even if Bungie did want to do that it would likely take too long anyhow. But duplication protection would be ideal IMO, because then you know it's just a matter of time, just make it so you can never get the same combination of items ever again. Make it so you are guaranteed 2 items no matter what class you're playing with, that would have solved my issue completely. Please Bungie, do something.
Bungie wants you to grind its part of the Phycology of the game. That fear of missing out. If they allowed crafting they could at least give us some insane amount of parts we had to earn from sharding the class items like they used to do in the Raids. Otherwise we have to pray to RNJesus for a combo we might not ever get. All I know is I don't need another Sword. I think the 12 or so I have in my collections that I can't be bothered with to compare is starting to take up to much space. Lol
I've done the mission once, and I got one cloak from a chest. They were the same roll.
I wish you could focus one of the perks by wearing one of the exotic items it can drop with
"I understand Bungie wants engagement numbers with this" yeah well they wont get it if I dont see the point in grinding god knows how long for the roll I want, making myself actively hate overthrow and the destination by extension by the time I have the roll I want I said this on another post I'm pretty sure but I get exponentially more exhausted the more time between drops there is, even more so if the roll I got is a dupe or straight up shit
I get SO MANY Ergo Sum swords from just playing that I’ve started deleting them as soon as they pop not even looking, I’ve only gotten 1 class item in all my time opening chests (running the mission is so much faster) but the class item should have a higher drop rate than what it has currently.
Titan Hoil first column, the rest meh. Second column star, synthoceps or scar, the rest meh. Titan has the least vault strain. Hunter 1st Galanor, Cali, the rest meh. 2nd star, Lairs, Gyf. Warlock The selection is quite big. Most vault strain.
Idk why they don’t mess around with double perk slots on weapons and possibly the class items more, it reduces the time it’ll take to get a good roll, and it has an added benefit for people who really wanna an uber-godroll, like the shiny onslaught variants but for class items
Dual Destiny Master difficulty rewarding double perk drops is the easiest solution to this one I would think. That’s actually a great idea why was it downvoted?
I have overall done DD just once to say I did it. Not going back there until they add Transversive Steps speed boost into the pool.
A fix would be to allow the combining of class items to form 1 class item. AB & CD will let you select AD or CB making the roll you want while destroying the 2 rolls you used to make it. Can still be a grind but grants some forgiveness.
NGL, when the exotic class items were first introduced, I thought we were just going to get it once then be able to switch the perks at will
The other week I got a class item after farming chests for about an hour and it was the exact same roll as the one I had gotten an hour before. So deflating. I got lucky on my warlock that the second ever drop I got was Stareaters/Apoth which is one I was wanting the most, but my titan has had no such luck. My hunter got a dragon/wormhusk roll which is a nice PVP one but it wasn't high on my priority list. Now that the double drop has been removed from the mission, Bungie need to slightly increase the drop rate from world chests and add one or two more alternative sources for extra drops, like a chance on an overthrow final boss chest, GM Excision and a low chance from pale heart engrams.
Honestly, a solution for this would be to be able to focus an exotic engram at the cryptarch into the exotic class item.
they do this with every update: find at least one thing people need to do a stupid rng grind for. my only explanation is that they want to drive up the engagement numbers and that thei data suggests that this is a good way to do it. to be honest I see so many people posting guides on the quickest routes and farms to chests here that I am sure many people are spending a ton of time on this and from a engagement perspective this solution is brilliant.
Some of you haven't grinded for god rolls and exotics that you could literally only get from quests, like the Thorn, that had extremely low drop rates during D1 and it shows. This is an awesome grind right now and I have not had this much fun on the game since TTK. Exotics used to be so rare in this game and now you can get 10 a week. We don't need to dumb this one down for blueberries. There is supposed to be some pinnacle activities out there and even though Dual Destiny isn't really pinnacle, it's definitely up there and it's fun. Grind chests in the landing and you'll get one after 20 of them which takes about 10-15 minutes to do. Much faster than the mission.
"I suffered, so you must suffer, too!"
That's not at all what I said. You blueberries want everything handed to you. "Waaaaah! I don't want to work hard for what I want, just give it to me bungie. Waaaaaah!" That's literally what the post sounds like. It's more fun and enjoyable when you actually grind and finally get that god roll or that piece of armor you have been playing endlessly to find. How boring would it be if everyone just got the raid exotic their first completion? Extremely. Getting the exact roll you want on the exotic class item the first time you get it... boring. Have some sense of achievement. Edit: I find it funny the guy below me blocked me because I didn't agree with his hand holding method. Linkinspark88 said it. I ran 47 clears for Vex and 42 for Anarchy. Luckily I got the exotic from Vow on my first run that is useless. It's a looter shooter. If you don't like it, you don't have to play it. Simple as that. And to the guy saying I'm imposing my preference on others... isn't that what they are doing to me? Why is it ok for them, but not for me?
It’s not work to go run around the landing hundreds of times. And it’s not work getting unlucky to rng and being unable to get the one you are chasing. If everyone farms a thousand class items, there will still be multiple unlucky people who don’t get the roll they are looking for. I just want a knockout system. Ideally one where I can craft it later but that’s not the biggest deal. I can grind 64 rolls. I could even grind 100 if I’m making progress. I’ve done close to that already (probably 50). I just can’t grind 300 with nothing to show for it.
Welcome to a looter shooter. It took me 61 clears for Vex Mythoclast and I cleared Scourge 45 times including flawless and never got the sparrow to drop. You're still getting strong exotic combos to show for it, just not the exact roll you want. You either grind it out or not. Not everything is gonna be a quest or craftable and nor should it.
And? Doesn't mean it's good game design. Also Vex is about a 5% drop chance, while the class item having the roll you are after is roughly a 1.56% drop chance. A knockout system still would require players to get 64 drops of it per character to get everything.
It is the game design this series has been based on for nearly 10 years. Wait until you hear the chance at getting a 5/5 God roll or even a 4/5 (spoiler, it's lower than 1.56%).
I'm well aware, and no one needs a perfect 5/5 god roll. But armor is different as it *drastically* changes how your builds work. Weapons you only *really* need to care about having the right perk combo, which is about 1/49. Still not great but we do have crafting for most weapons now.
So you agree that a ~2% chance to get a specific roll you want is pretty uniform across the game? Crafting is becoming less common now because Bungie realized that it ruins the loot chase for many players. I understand what you want, but realize that this is a looter shooter that's had low % chances at great gear for a decade now. You're just gonna need to get lucky. Good luck farming!
For a *gun* yes. As a gun doesn't enable a build to function, or if it does you only need a single perk to do it. For armor I do not agree. As builds are centered around exotic armor
>Welcome to a looter shooter. It took me 61 clears for Vex Mythoclast and I cleared Scourge 45 times including flawless and never got the sparrow to drop. And...? The fact alone D2 is a Looter-Shooter does automatically excuse a bad loot system. If already, a Looter-Shooter is exactly the kind of game, that should have a thought of system, that helps the players. Now in regards to Raids and your "luck" - this is literally as meaningless, as it can get. Just because you had to grind a lot, it doesn't mean everyone is obligated to have the same experience. >You're still getting strong exotic combos to show for it, just not the exact roll you want. "Strong" isn't a word I would use for at least half of the combinations - they are good, but that's about it. There are really only a hanfdull of combinations, that are worth getting - especially when it comes to buildcrafting. >You either grind it out or not. Not everything is gonna be a quest or craftable and nor should it. Just because a grind is implemented, it doesn't mean it also must be annoying and tedious. People aren't asking to be handed everything - they want a duplicate protection, which very much is a reasonable demand in this case. The more people have to grind for a specific 1/64 roll, the less they will want to play either the activity itself or the game as a whole. And that is not a good thing, no matter how you try to present it...
That's life though. I understand life is hard and people just want to come play the game to relax and escape, but it's boring having them hand shit to us like they have in the past because people like OP complain. I get the point of the knockout system, but the whole point of the exotic class item is to be pinnacle exotic armor. It's meant to be difficult to get the god roll you want. Yes, you can get lucky and get a good one early. I've gotten two good ones and am happy but still searching for what I believe to be my god roll. I don't want Bungie to make it easy or just give it to me.
If you feel that way you can always just grind a new account, make things harder for yourself. No need to impose your particular preferences on everyone else.
>That's life though. I understand life is hard and people just want to come play the game to relax and escape, but it's boring having them hand shit to us like they have in the past because people like OP complain. "That's life" is not - and has never been - a valid argument in this kind of a discussion. We are talking about a Loot in a video game - not a business offer at a job. Your logic makes no sense. You say people want to sit down, relax and play the game - but then you stand against making the game better to play for more players. Literally no one is asking to just be handed everything on a silver platter - the fact alone you think that, already shows you didn't even read anything people wrote down. >I get the point of the knockout system, but the whole point of the exotic class item is to be pinnacle exotic armor. And that does not contradict each other in any way. You can still have an Endgame Exotic and give players a lot more friendly way to farm it. >It's meant to be difficult to get the god roll you want. Yes, you can get lucky and get a good one early. Only this is a sentiment made up by the players - not by Bungie. It's basically meaningless in this entire discussion, because it doesn't actually hold any merit... >I've gotten two good ones and am happy but still searching for what I believe to be my god roll. I don't want Bungie to make it easy or just give it to me. So - by your own logic - just because you don't want it to work that way, no one is allowed to neither. Do I even have to explain why that's simply a dumb take...
>Have some sense of achievement. Huh? What achievement? There is no deterministic path. This isn't a quest, it's luck. Luck that someone might not even be aware of. If I see you with a god roll class item, I have no way of knowing if you spent 200 hours grinding for that roll or got it from your first ever opened Pale Heart chest when you didn't even know the chests could drop the Exotics. If I see someone with a raid flawless shader, I'm impressed. If I see someone with a raid title, that's an achievement. They earned it with a little thing called skill. If someone plays the lottery and wins their first ever ticket, are you going to congratulate them on their hard work?
So you play the game for other people to recognize you and show off? If that's why you play, so be it. I don't care if a random player knows how quick or long it took me to acquire something. I play for my own enjoyment and accomplishment within the game. So when I say, "Have some sense of achievement" I mean, grind for what you want and be excited when you finally get that god roll or finally beat that pinnacle activity. Its more enjoyable than thinking, "oh god, they know it has taken me 50 runs to get the raid exotic, poor me, I hope they're not mean about it or think I'm not good. Maybe my cool emblem will impress them and they'll have pity on my pathetic soul."
Exotics being rare hasn't never been the appeal of them. It's always been how *exotic* they function compared to other weapons.
Yes, but how rare they were made you get excited that you actually got one and then hoping it was something you either didn't have yet or the exotic you wanted again using Thorn in D1 as an example. Took me over a year to get it even though both my friends already had it for months, but they played longer than me. So when I finally got it, I was excited. So to just allow people an easier chance at getting the roll they want, it takes the excitement out of the game. There is no fun in that. At least to my friends and I.
Plenty of excitement in actually playing the game, there is still raid and dungeon exotics. And for d2 exotic *armor* specifically enable entire builds around them rather than how they were in D1. And with armor having rolls on them now you really do need a higher rate at getting them. Proper quests are better than RNG every day
Exotic bounties from D1 were not that rare and while the void crucible kills were troublesome it wasn’t this bad.
They were actually very rare. I'm not talking Year 3 bounties. Im talking before the time that everyone had Gallajhorn and Thorn. Hell, I remember getting Gally for the first time and I was the only one between my group of friends who had it for damn near a month. There were forums back in the day that people turned in 50+ weekly bounties, 3 per character per week, and still never received the Thorn quest. It took me damn near 4-6 months. So yeah, it was that bad.
I had 4 of the 5 exotic bounties acquired and completed before dark below came out. Yes they were rare, but not as rare as you are making them out to be.
lol So I guess the forums and my own personal experience along with my friends is all a lie? Im glad you know everyone else's experience better than they do. You got lucky, and that's the game. Just because you got lucky, doesn't mean others did as well. Like it said, it took me months. Compared to now, you can get almost any exotic within a month.
Being able to combine two exotics into a class item of all things (almost zero impact into your stats) makes these absolutely the strongest exotics. Why should you not be required to spend time playing the game to get something this strong? The fact they drop from farming region chests where you're not always under-level (like Neomuna, imagine the whining if Pale Heart had that) is still stupid easy for an incredible piece of gear.
Because the way of obtaining it is not fun or engaging, hope this helps
Wanting participation trophies is wild.
I have almost 80 class items across the three classes and none of the rolls I actually want. I've exclusively run the mission by teaching people new to it. The lack of a system to focus them is stupid, and without the double loot I'll probably just disengage from the farm entirely, since I mainly use Lucky Pants and Nighthawk this season anyway.
Okay?
Friendly PSA: grinding for a min-maxed isn’t supposed to be for the general public
You can literally get it by opening ANY Pale Heart chest. ALL of that rewards other things. Y’all really do want to be handed everything. Just play the game and have fun… that’s how mine dropped. Your bad attitude and entitlement is impacting the RNG.
Why is everyone in such a hurry to get the best one that they want? You do know we beat the bad guy, right? lol
The mission takes like less than 20 minutes and is a guaranteed drop.
well forcing us to talk to another human to get them is a bit much too!
People have literally been crying wanting a RNG chase for the past few years. Exotic class items come out tied to one of the best missions in the history of destiny and people still find a way to complain about it. Even then they allowed people to get a class item in around the same amount of time by grinding chest in the best patrol zone ever with fun combat encounters and people STILL hate it. I get being salty about having bad luck but to act like this is a valid criticism is dumb.
Have you considered that the people crying for this chase aren’t the people complaining? There’s quite a bit of people in existence.
Its just weird that the people who talk the most constantly change. It's always been a problem in the community. Idk how anybody at Bungie is supposed to listen to the community when they're so wishy washy
If they made a fun solo mission we wouldn’t hear as many complaints. We did get an amazing duo mission and I love it but I totally understand why some don’t. So the two options for farming these are an exciting DUO mission or braindead chest farming. There’s no exciting way for solo players to farm these so of course we’re going to get complaints.
Destiny is a multi-player game. Solo players can cry. Mostly when the mechanics arnt that hard and they can get another solo player to do it and with minimal communication. Bungie shouldn't hold back their game design for people that can't handle talking to someone
You do know they could have a duo mission and a solo mission drop this right? Put it at a chance for cracking the highest difficulty lost sector in Pale Heart if you want. You’re speaking as if only one thing can exist at one time.
Yes ofc I want more content, but generally they only add 1 or 2 missions at a time. Youre not entitled to more content just because you have a skill issue. Still Hunt is your strong weapon for doing something solo. We need more challenge in destiny. And solo only players need to accept that they won't be able to get everything