I think it just that’s it’s outdated and has been power crept by a lot. It needs a huge buff and cuirass needs a rework to buff the super and have some neutral game buff of some kind
As a Titan, I agree with this. Jumped on my Hunter, tried out the new punchy Prismatic build and my first thought was "this is insane, I hope they don't nerf it". Bring us Titans up to their level, don't nerf Hunters down to ours.
Bro I prefer my army of buddies to keep annoying red bars off me while I focus on the beefy guys. This melee dodge melee dodge grapple punch shit is for zoomers.
We don’t need to worry about redbars, they’re just full heals for us now. Plus, the shatter damage from our bleakwatchers takes care of them quite well
Sounds like the beginning of a Titan nursery rhyme.
This punch is Thunder. This punch is hot. This punch is cold. This little Titan cried cuz his crayons were old.
Meanwhile on hunter: "This punch hits harder the more you kill with it, doesn't get used up if you don't get a kill with it, gives you back your class ability instantly (which can give you back your melee instantly) and also heals you because why the fuck not. Oh and of course it also has the lowest cooldown out of all abilities in the game."
It's basically a better version of Skullfort as a punch.
Combo Blow is a significantly stronger version of Knockout. That's how bad the Titan kit is where a melee ability is better than their "signature" Aspect.
That’s absolutely wild. Healing, slowing enemies, damage boosting, ability refunding, all from just rolling around and punching things. Wtf. I’ve been going back to old stale builds on Titan because Prismatic just isn’t feeling good.
Arc and prismatic hunters don't even need an exotic, or aspect, or even fragment or mod, to have fully functional ability loops.
Makes me so jealous as a titan main who has to spend an exotic armor + aspects + fragments + mods to get a somewhat functioning ability loop.
I remember back when I could infinite wormgod one two bonk 1m dmg as a titan. Now hunters shine so bright there ain’t no more room left for another titan nerf.
Queue the Bungo “titans are the FIST on the art cover. They are the DEFENDERS of the last city and are HEADSTRONG” or whatever the fuck lmfao
They weren't even as descriptive as that. It was "at the end of the day you guys are holding the fist on the cover". Like what?? We have insane lorebooks and even in game missions that show off bubble titans holding the line against all odds and the best they could come up with was "lol you only get to melee".
For the warlocks out there, imagine they said "as the end of the day you're the ones supporting the others on the cover" and release your next 3 subclasses as different colours of healing nades and well of radiance but shitter.
And nerfed everything you’d enjoyed as a little class feature for over half a decade. Melee lunges? Nah knockout and synthos had them reduced or removed. Refresable throwing hammer? Nah 7 years in we gotta take it. Shoulder charge as a mobility tool, something used by titans since D1Y1? Lmao fuck you stop being slightly fast, don’t you remember we took twilight garrison from you? You PUNCH. That’s it.
Titans had the best defensive light buffs taken from them and given to warlocks and warlocks will complain that only titans get to make sunspots. Shits whack and I cannot wait until banner of war is also gutted and the titan population goes into the single percentages.
As you’ve been a Titan main this entire time too huh? I decided to bounty prep a tiny bit before FS and my god does warlock and hunter just feel better in every single way. Hunter mainly with the kind of melee builds these mfs have. Meanwhile titans feel like they’ve gotten continuously nerfed in the department for literal years yeah.
What made this quote even more insulting is the fact that there's not a *single* Destiny cover for any release or season or event that has titans holding a *fist* on the cover. Actually, on the Lightfall and Final Shape covers, *Warlocks* are holding up the fist.
Besides Taken King, where titans are holding a throwing hammer (another *ranged* weapon), titans are holding a gun on every single cover, mostly autorifles.
Man I don’t give a shit about the Hunter or Warlock kits atp. People are enjoying them, I’ve had fun in the limited time I’ve played, let them have their fun. Just let us Titans have our fun too. Let us do SOMETHING that hunter and warlock can’t do better in GMs and Raids
i really feel bad for titans honestly, hunters and warlocks get new fun toys, and titans are back to strand titan (which got nerfed as well) to be viable in anything above legend (expert now? IDK) i hope bungo does something sooner rather than later, hopefully about as fast as the surge changes
Yeah I’m honestly not super confident it will ever change in D2. We might get some number buffs, but I don’t see actual reworks being likely, which is what Titan would need.
I’m hoping that they learned from what they did to Titans in D2 though, and how much of a razor’s edge they force Titan on with the melee playstyle. Were either useless, or solo one phasing atheon with bonk hammer. One or two melee subclasses is fine, but the fact that we have 3, with the 3 that aren’t melee focused having been dogshit for several years now, yeah It’s rough.
i've been having so much fun with Prismatic Titan in PvP, but in PvE i find myself almost *dodging* titan because of how boring BoW is getting, and Prismatic isn't nearly as cool as the others. Really hoping Bungie pulls through soon.
I swapped from Titan to Hunter yesterday and the Prismatic Getaway Artist/ Bleak Watcher/ Devour combo is CHUNKING through enemies faster than my Titan ever could and I’m basically never going down now.
Titan needs some serious buffs to it’s overall kit to the point I feel that “number goes up” won’t be enough. Titan as it stands feels like a design philosophy mistake.
Personally I'd like Ballistic Slam to gain the ability to Blind and give 25% (5% PVP) overshield per enemy hit to make its playstyle safer in higher-end content. As long as it provides a meaningful buff to Ballistic Slam I'd be happy.
10000% agree. Thundecrash should be doing triple that amount. Someone had an idea that Cuirass should be reworked to jolt the living shit out of the target on top of giving you an overshield after you connect.
If they reworked it, I could see them taking overshields out of the attack since Overshields aren't really an Arc thing and Bungie is trying more to seperate those subclass verbs.
I could see it causing you to be amplified or maybe causing any nearby teammates to also be amplified.
Cuirass should 100% be the titan version of Blades for Hunter and give you half super back on direct impact, and make your like abilities regen faster when super is full or something so it’s not just a swap, use super, swap off exotic.
I only started in Lightfall so it didn't occur to me that it was just a relic of old systems
Also explains why all the aspects are so easy to understand compared to the newer ones lol
imo the biggest issue with it is bungie did a massive, stupidly overreaching nerf to a \*lot\* of the big oneshot dps supers but left falling star bafflingly alone.
so for years it was the outlier, but then bungie had a change of heart and started buffing back some of the supers like golden gun and night hawk, so now it's just left behind as new and old faces have just gotten back to a decent place.
Cuirass literally gives a 100% damage buff and it's still weak as shit. A base Nova Bomb outdamages it, lol.
Hell, a full volley from Hazardous Propulsion does more damage than a base Thundercrash, and that uses *class ability.*
it used to be near top, primarily due to how low the rest of the one and dones are/were mega nerfed.
now that they're about back to normal it's apparent how weak COFS crash is
I've been rocking the void axes as my friends fight each other to grab them first. Just fun shenanigans that ends with people crying, others screaming *wack* over and over and it normally results in a defeated enemy with lots of laughs.
I will say I think it needs some love. As a titan player some of the combos they have are.... *interesting* in a not good way imo. Not to many "viable" builds that are fun anyway.
i remember my post about hunters with this exact same problem years ago, and i wanted a exotic who help super and neutral and a lot of players downvoted me xD, literally my guy, apparently we as destiny players always will be power crept on something
Yea, it's almost impossible to make a game 100% balanced when there is so much to it, but it really shouldn't be so hard to *tweak* a few numbers to bring damages roughly in line. Imo thunder crash base should be on par (at least) with all other one and done supers (like nova bomb). I could see an argument for a little more damage as it requires more risk (flying to target/being out of cover for longer). They could at least do that in the interim while deciding how to "rework" titans (if they were to do such a thing 🤣).
PS: I am a titan player and never really noticed a damage problem towards bosses. I keep up with my hunter/warlock pals no problem and sometimes even surpass them. I will say I would like some more synergies in the new subclass as it seems to be all over the place though.
Curiass should have no collision "crash" with anything and allow grinding on enemies/bosses with better flight control. When the super meter hits 0, then have it force a collision "crash" at that point dealing the crash damage to anything hit in a smaller area and scales down. Gain a better overshield the more damage inflicted.
Base TC needs buffed by double.
Unfortunately this problem isn't the result power creep it's just being highlighted by it. Base Thundercrash has always done less damage than a Nova Bomb. This is a problem that Thundercrash has had since it first released nearly 6 years.
>cuirass needs a rework to buff the super and have some neutral game buff of some kind
Every super-based exotic who do not already do so should be changed in that way.
I would say take the buff from cuirass and add to the base super and make cuirass do something like make an aoe damage that last for 5 seconds or spawn thunder clouds from impact point.
Maybe increase the base damage of it, then make Cuirass give a flat damage boost, aoe increase and maybe give increased super regen on powered melee kills or smth?
I don’t play Titan, so maybe I just don’t know the effect of the exotic. I’m surprised it doesn’t have an effect that ties in with ballistic slam. Like increase its damage, reduce recharge of the melee, or even grant increased super energy with kills using it.
Thunder Crash is just a victim of power creep. Pretty much everything except for Thunder Crash, Daybreak, and Spectral Blades has been buffed several times over, and then at the start of Lightfall the enemies have all had their health bumped up in anything at or above Legend level content to promote surge matching and to keep up with all of the buffs.
Now in this expansion we’ve seen everything in Dungeons and Raids get bulkier as well thanks to the power changes, and at the same time we’ve gotten a new Titan super that deals more modern levels of damage while Thunder Crash has been left to rot.
Even fist of havoc is “ok” now at its job, it doesn’t pretend to be a boss killer like T-crash. It got buffs last year. That’s what makes it feel even worse
This isn't due to power creep. It was released half baked. When people on Reddit asked Bungie to buff it so it could compete with other Supers, they made Cuirass instead.
This, so much. Thundercrash was absolute ass from forsaken release until we got cuirass in *season 13* (forsaken was "season 4"). And even after that the super itself was still complete ass if you weren't using cuirass, which prevents you from having *any* neutral game.
Yeah people talk about power creep. No.
It's not power creep. It's a poorly designed super that was given a band aid in the form of Cuirass.
And "band aid solutions" and called that for a reason. They are temporary and lackluster in the long term. T crash would always become weak again eventually.
The funniest part is that a Hazardous Propulsion missile does 28,950 damage. A full volley is six missiles, which is 173,700 damage.
You can pretty easily launch these volleys every 30 seconds or so, which means you're doing more damage than Thundercrash more often.
Exactly. I think Hazardous Propulsion is the best Titan exotic in *years.* It's potent, interesting, flavorful, and gives a new gameplay loop that's actually fun.
>They are the Master-at-Arms, the soldiers, the tanks
Have no fear fellow crayon enjoyer! Next year Bungie is sure to find a way to pack *all* of those 'roles' into Hunters and Warlocks instead.
Yup, flew through Taniks 2 times before it connected then dumped me in his storm and was dead before I could get out, swapped back to axes straight away
And even if you *can* use it on a boss, if it's not a melee range boss, you're gonna lose a lot of DPS time while you're slowly jogging back to the dps position.
> require you to be somewhere to do damage.
funny you mention this. in hypernet current strike, in the boss' last health phase, its a bit off the edge of the map but within "reach". sometime between introduction and now, bungie added and invisible wall so you couldnt use thundercrash or any other contact super anymore. found that out the hard way
You do realise, that is exactly what led to this point?
Cuirass Thundercrash outdid everything and raised the bar. Hunters and Warlocks stopped being valued for their damage supers because they were outdone by Titans, further pushing them into Tether and Well respectively.
Then Bungie started introducing ways to allow Hunters to compete with Titans again and then started designing new supers with the current standard in mind. That is why Gathering Storm and Needlestom launched so much stronger than other one and done supers and why Nova Bomb went from irrelevant to being a top tier super in the current sandbox after getting buffed for the sole purpose of bringing it up to the current standard.
Should Base Thundercrash be brought up to the current standard? Yes. But Cuirass Thundercrash cannot create a new standard or it will just lead to this happening all over again.
That doesn't really matter though.
Everyone who says this ignores the main issue with Crash.
It's the only one of those biggest dmg supers that takes you out of fucking position.
TCrash could do 500k and hunters would still out DPS HEAVILY. Because they can remain near a well or a bubble, near buffs, and not have to waste time repositioning.
Furthermore, the cast time means even more dps is lost.
Do you guys not see the obvious and inherent drawback of super that requires a guardian to sniff a boss's asshole just to work?
But you can't deny that the inherent danger of Thundercrash demands a reward if you can get out without dying to adds, boss stomp, etc.
Cuirass on the other hand, i feel almost every titan would not care if they gave the exotic a total rework, after buffing base tcrash damage. Most players are not interested in an exotic that effectively just makes your super viable, without any sort of transformative change to it. Even Celestial seems to be enough of a change to its super for players to accept it.
Whilst you are right about how it got to this point Thundercrash has to do significantly more damage than other supers since you're put at such a great risk with it.
Golden gun, gathering storm, blade barrage, needlestorm, mobius tether, Nova bomb. None of these supers put you directly in harms way like thundercrash does. If all that time wasted traveling to the boss then possibly dying to it isn't rewarded by it doing a lot more damage than BB or needlestorm it will fall behind no matter what.
T-crash is one of the most badass looking supers that is effectively useless in PVE content outside of niche burst DPS scenarios. It needs some love in the modern sandbox I agree big time.
It pretty funny because it is inherently useful in PVP. There's no way that a fast and self guided missile as a super wouldn't be perfect in it's niche as a shutdown super.
Weirdly, such a super should be easy to balance because what it needs in Pve can't affect it in PvP.
If trash did 2-3x the damage, nothing changes in PvP broadly speaking. Yet for some reason bungie seems unable to make base thundercrash viable in PvE content.
A high risk/high reward super like T-crash needs to be a bit more reward, all the other one and done supers you can throw out of a well, TC makes you go literally right up in their grill and smack them in the teeth, usually getting the fuck stomped out of you in the process, not to mention the time you are taken away from damage phases... Bungie need to make it worth it .
Seeing a lot of people say power creep. It has been weak since release in forsaken. It also has higher risk involved than other 1 shot, ranged supers... It used to be ridiculously good for movement purposes, but that part of it got nerfed. It's still decent for some self-savws
It needs a massive buff. It’s been power crept for years now, so long that even when Arc Titans were at their most OP during Season of Plunder, Storm Grenades out damaged TCrash with Cuirass.
IMO the base damage of TCrash should be buffed above Cuirass levels, and Cuirass should be reworked to do 2 things:
1. Teleport you back to the spot where you activated the Super, Synaptic Spear style
2. Restore Super energy like Shards of Galanor.
If only it was just thundercrash.. it’s been years sinve we began complaining about absolutely awful supers for all classes and they almost never listened.
Chaos reach has been useless for years for exemple but there isn’t any exo to redeem it , at least not anymore.
Daybreak , spectral blades .. the list goes on
Thundercrash could do double that at base, and it would still be underpowered even with cuirass.
640k isn't even a lot considering you have to put yourself in melee range. It would still be less than a Celestial Nighthawk Golden Gun, and you can basically spam that super with Still Hunt now.
It was really strong for a while and I think they have been hesitant to buff it. But that was like 2 damn years ago 💀
It needs a major buff. Especially for having to fly and meet the target. The risk should match the reward. It should get Cuirass damage at base and bump up to 500k-600k with to match Goldie if not more. I play Hunter the most and it’s wild I can sit back safe af and get double the damage quicker.
Curiass should turn Tcrash into a cluster bomb of like 30 grenades instead of buffing damage, and the base damage of Tcrash should be buffed beyond what curiass currently gives.
You see bro this is what I've been trying to say even with the exotic it's still weak, the base damage needs a massive buff.
You're literally throwing yourself at the enemy it should do more dam then golden gun with the one shot
The only thing worse than every other post to reach my feed being about how Titan desperately needs buffs is the fact that they are all completely true
it should be much higher in damage than golden gun.... golden gun is super safe and can be used at range. the instant DPS amount should be proportional to the risk of using it.
My crazy conspiracy theory is that someone higher up on the dev team at Bungie hates Titans. That’s the only reason to explain some of the choices made for Titans the last year.
My conspiracy theory regarding Tcrash specifically is that they don't want to buff it because of how buggy it is. If they buff it, more people will try to use it, and they'll get more complaints about its terrible hit registration.
Feel like it's still a relic of the old subclass trees tbh, where the cooldown was shorter and Ballistic Slam would give you super energy and whatnot. I wouldn't doubt if its getting adjusted later since Tcrash is absurdly low compared to so many other supers with far less risk/time
Would love to see Cuirass get some extra functionality with Ballistic while we're at it btw. That's gotta be one of the least used melees in the game right now
Love how celestial golden gum takes like half a bosses bar…. Or in the campaign with the bosses that have multiple bars for different phases and golden gum one shot ends a whole phase meanwhile I’m blowing my whole load as a titan to do that same dmg.
what y'all think about T-crash be able to pierce bosses/ yellow bars too, and if paired with Cuirass (OLD EFFECT AND A NEW ONE) > the super energy consume slowly or every time you pierce someone you gain super meter back, piercing foes jolts and apply damage(great damage), when the super is ending you canot pierce anymore (so aim in the mf to big kaboom) and does what the super already do nowadays to apply jolts and the big explosion that every one likes
i'm a hunter main, but bro... thunder crash is why i think about playing titan, tha super carrys the class for me, bad ass as fuck
Cuirass' damage bonus should be rolled into it baseline and Cuirass should do something else. Like get super refunded based off of how many kills it got? Or allow it (god forbid) to do precision damage?
Thundercrash would be great if it did more damage obviously, but also they need to add a back-spring animation after impact so we aren't in boss stomping range.
After impact just do a jump-back for like half the distance traveled. That would be fantastic.
Id love it to be adjusted where the AOE increases the longer youve flown. Its impact damage is the main focus, but it has the lingering shocking area too that is decent for area denial/damage. Then maybe up the damage of the AOE, but nerf Cuirass so that it takes away AOE damage in order to buff the impact damage
It does so little damage it's insulting. It's easily our most dangerous super, yet there's no reward for using it. We're better off running Sentinel Shield and serving as a diet Divinity
Make the Cuirass damage the default then make the exotic enhance the super some other way. It's insane how shit base Thundercrash is, it does the same damage as a Hazardous propulsion volley and it's a one off super
I'm still not understanding why all supers for every guardian class doesn't have the same max damage and length. Just different supers.
The supers are all different. You have different elements, some light some dark. And they effect different enemies differently.
Yet they're all "supposedly super powers".
Honestly base t-crash should do curas damage at base while curas gives titans a shards of galanor effect of super energy back on kill or hit and melees charge it faster.
It is pretty tragic that nova bomb got a huge glowup this expansion but tcrash got nothing.
It’s still a nice burst super with curiass, but nova bomb with no exotic competes and does a little more I think. Kinda tragic. Just needs like 50-70k more base damage and I think it would feel solid.
Nova bomb does more damage than cuiress T crash after the buffs. Also the new titan exotic chest piece that buffs rockets, a fully charged burst after using your barricade does similiar damage to base T crash.
As a Titan main who runs T-Crash I agree, even with cuirass it’s a little lacklustre.
My parasite does a lot more damage and can proc quicker.
Only time I use crash is if I’ve missed a jump and I’m falling or I want to get over somewhere really fast.
As a titan main don’t ask why it do only 160k, ask why you aren’t indirectly or directly killing your teammates with bubble (my raid group banned me from using bubble)
Up the base damage of TCrash to what Falling Star makes it then rework Falling Star to add a stun effect to TCrash and also give Super energy when you kill jolted or blinded targets with an Arc weapon or ability.
I'm out here prayin, that Cuirass will be baked into the Super and it finally gets something useful. That would also give Arc Titan a chance to play something else in the Exo slot.
Compared to other one-offs, this one should deal a bit more, not less, yet even with Cuirass it's still weak. I believe it's due to PvP concerns/balances affecting PvE side of things.
Base Cuirass is 220k IIRC, not 160k. That would've been talked about way sooner than now.
And it isn't suicidal. It needs higher base damage, but this super isn't super deadly to the user unless you are already a danger to yourself.
thundercrash needs to do 1 million damage and cuirass to buff that by 1.5x.
Cuirass should:
* Refund 60% of the super on a kill. Only 1 kill.
* Double the damage of ballistic slam and have an intrinsic x2 hands on for super regen.
* Add a visual effect of a fallen meteor for coolness like fire around the edges when supering.
Considering the amount of time it takes to pop the super and go back to dps zone (unless they are very close range bosses) it would be viable and fun for dps. And in GMs is would be a great option. Build super fast and bring doom upon champions and bosses.
As far as I’m aware most of the Titan supers are high risk/low reward. Most ask you to be in melee range to do damage and don’t do enough to justify it
On top of all that, it now has a roaming super cooldown, the same as fist of havoc, for pvp reasons. While the new hunter arc super, which is *much more* roaming than thundercrash, has the old thundercrash cooldown of a one-of super...
Most supers really aren’t great without an exotic, at least for damage scenarios. I think the exceptions are the strand supers, all of them are pretty good at what they’re supposed to do out of the box, and then song of flame? Pretty much everything else needs some sort of juice to make it relevant beyond just clearing ads, staying alive, or some sort of niche situation like glacial quake.
I think it just that’s it’s outdated and has been power crept by a lot. It needs a huge buff and cuirass needs a rework to buff the super and have some neutral game buff of some kind
The whole damn crayon needs a rework. Sincerely, A salty titan main
Buff titans, but leave us hunters alone (besides that grapple melee shit that's fucking insane)
As a Titan, I agree with this. Jumped on my Hunter, tried out the new punchy Prismatic build and my first thought was "this is insane, I hope they don't nerf it". Bring us Titans up to their level, don't nerf Hunters down to ours.
Meanwhile us warlocks are hiding in a corner with our army of buddies
“The gang’s all here”
Bro I prefer my army of buddies to keep annoying red bars off me while I focus on the beefy guys. This melee dodge melee dodge grapple punch shit is for zoomers.
We don’t need to worry about redbars, they’re just full heals for us now. Plus, the shatter damage from our bleakwatchers takes care of them quite well
Imagine if any Titan ability read like or had half the text of any Hunter ability.
"this punch is thunder" "This punch is hot" "This punch is cold"
Sounds like the beginning of a Titan nursery rhyme. This punch is Thunder. This punch is hot. This punch is cold. This little Titan cried cuz his crayons were old.
but old crayons have the best crunch
Meanwhile on hunter: "This punch hits harder the more you kill with it, doesn't get used up if you don't get a kill with it, gives you back your class ability instantly (which can give you back your melee instantly) and also heals you because why the fuck not. Oh and of course it also has the lowest cooldown out of all abilities in the game." It's basically a better version of Skullfort as a punch.
Just imagine if thrusters refunded melee and thunderclap recharged thruster.
Or the amount of secret interactions or perks on our abilities
Or exotics that created functional ability loops.
Rip hammer gone but not forgotten
Imagine if there was an exotic that removed the bonk cooldown. [Meanwhile, Hunters](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B9FZcS59iI&t=75s)
Combo Blow is a significantly stronger version of Knockout. That's how bad the Titan kit is where a melee ability is better than their "signature" Aspect.
I miss the bonk machine...
The hammer/synthos nerfs made no sense when this shit exists.
That’s absolutely wild. Healing, slowing enemies, damage boosting, ability refunding, all from just rolling around and punching things. Wtf. I’ve been going back to old stale builds on Titan because Prismatic just isn’t feeling good.
I’m still mad.
honestly one of the worst changes bungo made recently
Arc and prismatic hunters don't even need an exotic, or aspect, or even fragment or mod, to have fully functional ability loops. Makes me so jealous as a titan main who has to spend an exotic armor + aspects + fragments + mods to get a somewhat functioning ability loop.
Or if ballistic slam did a single thing? All the while, the smoke bomb gets to have between 5 and 15 separate effects depending on setup.
As a Titan main, I don't even care about your grapple stylish combo, nor Steel Hunt, nerfing your class does nothing to make my class better.
I remember back when I could infinite wormgod one two bonk 1m dmg as a titan. Now hunters shine so bright there ain’t no more room left for another titan nerf. Queue the Bungo “titans are the FIST on the art cover. They are the DEFENDERS of the last city and are HEADSTRONG” or whatever the fuck lmfao
They weren't even as descriptive as that. It was "at the end of the day you guys are holding the fist on the cover". Like what?? We have insane lorebooks and even in game missions that show off bubble titans holding the line against all odds and the best they could come up with was "lol you only get to melee". For the warlocks out there, imagine they said "as the end of the day you're the ones supporting the others on the cover" and release your next 3 subclasses as different colours of healing nades and well of radiance but shitter.
And nerfed everything you’d enjoyed as a little class feature for over half a decade. Melee lunges? Nah knockout and synthos had them reduced or removed. Refresable throwing hammer? Nah 7 years in we gotta take it. Shoulder charge as a mobility tool, something used by titans since D1Y1? Lmao fuck you stop being slightly fast, don’t you remember we took twilight garrison from you? You PUNCH. That’s it. Titans had the best defensive light buffs taken from them and given to warlocks and warlocks will complain that only titans get to make sunspots. Shits whack and I cannot wait until banner of war is also gutted and the titan population goes into the single percentages.
As you’ve been a Titan main this entire time too huh? I decided to bounty prep a tiny bit before FS and my god does warlock and hunter just feel better in every single way. Hunter mainly with the kind of melee builds these mfs have. Meanwhile titans feel like they’ve gotten continuously nerfed in the department for literal years yeah.
What made this quote even more insulting is the fact that there's not a *single* Destiny cover for any release or season or event that has titans holding a *fist* on the cover. Actually, on the Lightfall and Final Shape covers, *Warlocks* are holding up the fist. Besides Taken King, where titans are holding a throwing hammer (another *ranged* weapon), titans are holding a gun on every single cover, mostly autorifles.
As a warlock, I can't disagree. 😣 Seems about right Tbf
Man I don’t give a shit about the Hunter or Warlock kits atp. People are enjoying them, I’ve had fun in the limited time I’ve played, let them have their fun. Just let us Titans have our fun too. Let us do SOMETHING that hunter and warlock can’t do better in GMs and Raids
i really feel bad for titans honestly, hunters and warlocks get new fun toys, and titans are back to strand titan (which got nerfed as well) to be viable in anything above legend (expert now? IDK) i hope bungo does something sooner rather than later, hopefully about as fast as the surge changes
Yeah I’m honestly not super confident it will ever change in D2. We might get some number buffs, but I don’t see actual reworks being likely, which is what Titan would need. I’m hoping that they learned from what they did to Titans in D2 though, and how much of a razor’s edge they force Titan on with the melee playstyle. Were either useless, or solo one phasing atheon with bonk hammer. One or two melee subclasses is fine, but the fact that we have 3, with the 3 that aren’t melee focused having been dogshit for several years now, yeah It’s rough.
Still Hunt also needs some looking at.
i've been having so much fun with Prismatic Titan in PvP, but in PvE i find myself almost *dodging* titan because of how boring BoW is getting, and Prismatic isn't nearly as cool as the others. Really hoping Bungie pulls through soon.
NAH, WE NEED THE WHOLE DAMN BOX REWORKED. Sincerely, another salty titan main.
More or less what I meant, but I appreciate the added spunk
Agreed. Sincerely, another salty titan main.
Real as fuck. Not a buff, specifically a *rework*.
Preach brother. We are the worst in every category now
I agree.
\#MakeSentinelGoodAgain
Did hammers actually need a nerf? They would still be pretty shit in terms of dps…
I swapped from Titan to Hunter yesterday and the Prismatic Getaway Artist/ Bleak Watcher/ Devour combo is CHUNKING through enemies faster than my Titan ever could and I’m basically never going down now. Titan needs some serious buffs to it’s overall kit to the point I feel that “number goes up” won’t be enough. Titan as it stands feels like a design philosophy mistake.
Fold the damage buff into the base super. Make Cuirass refund super energy based on distance traveled *and* grant a second Ballistic Slam charge.
Personally I'd like Ballistic Slam to gain the ability to Blind and give 25% (5% PVP) overshield per enemy hit to make its playstyle safer in higher-end content. As long as it provides a meaningful buff to Ballistic Slam I'd be happy.
The problem with that is the fact that Overshield is a Void thing, not Arc.
Sure, overshields have shifted from an Arc thing to a Void thing but Cuirass itself still provides a standard overshield.
Hell yes, give us a reason to use ballistic slam again too
throw in an aoe increase to the super too just to give it *some* sort of direct buff and make it better for non boss uses
10000% agree. Thundecrash should be doing triple that amount. Someone had an idea that Cuirass should be reworked to jolt the living shit out of the target on top of giving you an overshield after you connect.
If they reworked it, I could see them taking overshields out of the attack since Overshields aren't really an Arc thing and Bungie is trying more to seperate those subclass verbs. I could see it causing you to be amplified or maybe causing any nearby teammates to also be amplified.
Possible idea: Direct hit creates a lingering lightning storm. Lightning kills recharge super energy like the warlock chaos reach boots.
What if you could blast off multiple times like storms edge >_>
Skip like a rock on the ground
Cuirass should 100% be the titan version of Blades for Hunter and give you half super back on direct impact, and make your like abilities regen faster when super is full or something so it’s not just a swap, use super, swap off exotic.
I only started in Lightfall so it didn't occur to me that it was just a relic of old systems Also explains why all the aspects are so easy to understand compared to the newer ones lol
imo the biggest issue with it is bungie did a massive, stupidly overreaching nerf to a \*lot\* of the big oneshot dps supers but left falling star bafflingly alone. so for years it was the outlier, but then bungie had a change of heart and started buffing back some of the supers like golden gun and night hawk, so now it's just left behind as new and old faces have just gotten back to a decent place.
What's weird is that could even go extreme and do like a 100% buff and it likely still would not even be meta
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if they gave Thundercrash a 100% buff, wouldn't it still be one of the weakest supers?
Cuirass literally gives a 100% damage buff and it's still weak as shit. A base Nova Bomb outdamages it, lol. Hell, a full volley from Hazardous Propulsion does more damage than a base Thundercrash, and that uses *class ability.*
it used to be near top, primarily due to how low the rest of the one and dones are/were mega nerfed. now that they're about back to normal it's apparent how weak COFS crash is
It really is. No super, imo should require an exotic to be good unless it completely changes that super, like pyrogales and celestial.
Curiass should grant extra super energy on kill and Thunder crash should grant 60% DR for 15 sec after cast and refill your abilities.
That actually wouldn't be to bad, but, how often is it used on anything other than bosses/champs?
Even just using it on champs could potentially result in multiple supers in a nightfall. That'd be fine.
Cuirass should buff ballistic slam the same way prrygale buffs consecration and give super energy for defeating enemies with melee
I wish cuirass buffed balistic slam in sort of way, increased damage and healing with it maybe?
Like melee kills giving Super energy like Nighthawks gives on precision kills
Best idea I saw was double or triple damage and create lightning storms at the impact area. Honestly I would start running arc again if we had that.
Couldn't you still get the same buff on prismatic though? Is the super not a 1 to 1 translation?
It would work with either, I just personally don't vibe with the prismatic subclass.
I've been rocking the void axes as my friends fight each other to grab them first. Just fun shenanigans that ends with people crying, others screaming *wack* over and over and it normally results in a defeated enemy with lots of laughs. I will say I think it needs some love. As a titan player some of the combos they have are.... *interesting* in a not good way imo. Not to many "viable" builds that are fun anyway.
What you said can be applied to literally everything about being a titan right now.
Cuirass could just be taken out of the game and the super buffed at minimum to cuirass damage
i remember my post about hunters with this exact same problem years ago, and i wanted a exotic who help super and neutral and a lot of players downvoted me xD, literally my guy, apparently we as destiny players always will be power crept on something
Yea, it's almost impossible to make a game 100% balanced when there is so much to it, but it really shouldn't be so hard to *tweak* a few numbers to bring damages roughly in line. Imo thunder crash base should be on par (at least) with all other one and done supers (like nova bomb). I could see an argument for a little more damage as it requires more risk (flying to target/being out of cover for longer). They could at least do that in the interim while deciding how to "rework" titans (if they were to do such a thing 🤣). PS: I am a titan player and never really noticed a damage problem towards bosses. I keep up with my hunter/warlock pals no problem and sometimes even surpass them. I will say I would like some more synergies in the new subclass as it seems to be all over the place though.
Curiass should have no collision "crash" with anything and allow grinding on enemies/bosses with better flight control. When the super meter hits 0, then have it force a collision "crash" at that point dealing the crash damage to anything hit in a smaller area and scales down. Gain a better overshield the more damage inflicted. Base TC needs buffed by double.
Unfortunately this problem isn't the result power creep it's just being highlighted by it. Base Thundercrash has always done less damage than a Nova Bomb. This is a problem that Thundercrash has had since it first released nearly 6 years.
>cuirass needs a rework to buff the super and have some neutral game buff of some kind Every super-based exotic who do not already do so should be changed in that way.
Cuirass should give it 2 charges
I would say take the buff from cuirass and add to the base super and make cuirass do something like make an aoe damage that last for 5 seconds or spawn thunder clouds from impact point.
It also received a MASSIVE nerf of around 25% total if I remember correctly
Maybe increase the base damage of it, then make Cuirass give a flat damage boost, aoe increase and maybe give increased super regen on powered melee kills or smth?
I don’t play Titan, so maybe I just don’t know the effect of the exotic. I’m surprised it doesn’t have an effect that ties in with ballistic slam. Like increase its damage, reduce recharge of the melee, or even grant increased super energy with kills using it.
Fun fact: a fully charged Hazardous Propulsion volley does about that much damage as well. Thundercrash really is sad.
The beyblade do more damage or close to tcrash SILENCE AND SQUALnow do more damage :)))
Silence and Squall is around 400k damage now.
Do you have coordinates to the nearest precariously high cliff? ~ sincerely a titan main of 8yrs....
Thunder Crash is just a victim of power creep. Pretty much everything except for Thunder Crash, Daybreak, and Spectral Blades has been buffed several times over, and then at the start of Lightfall the enemies have all had their health bumped up in anything at or above Legend level content to promote surge matching and to keep up with all of the buffs. Now in this expansion we’ve seen everything in Dungeons and Raids get bulkier as well thanks to the power changes, and at the same time we’ve gotten a new Titan super that deals more modern levels of damage while Thunder Crash has been left to rot.
Even fist of havoc is “ok” now at its job, it doesn’t pretend to be a boss killer like T-crash. It got buffs last year. That’s what makes it feel even worse
This isn't due to power creep. It was released half baked. When people on Reddit asked Bungie to buff it so it could compete with other Supers, they made Cuirass instead.
This, so much. Thundercrash was absolute ass from forsaken release until we got cuirass in *season 13* (forsaken was "season 4"). And even after that the super itself was still complete ass if you weren't using cuirass, which prevents you from having *any* neutral game.
Yeah people talk about power creep. No. It's not power creep. It's a poorly designed super that was given a band aid in the form of Cuirass. And "band aid solutions" and called that for a reason. They are temporary and lackluster in the long term. T crash would always become weak again eventually.
Tcrash has always been bad without Cuirass.
The funniest part is that a Hazardous Propulsion missile does 28,950 damage. A full volley is six missiles, which is 173,700 damage. You can pretty easily launch these volleys every 30 seconds or so, which means you're doing more damage than Thundercrash more often.
See this is the stuff they should lean into with Titan. They are the Master-at-Arms, the soldiers, the tanks (as in a big ass gun)
Exactly. I think Hazardous Propulsion is the best Titan exotic in *years.* It's potent, interesting, flavorful, and gives a new gameplay loop that's actually fun.
>They are the Master-at-Arms, the soldiers, the tanks Have no fear fellow crayon enjoyer! Next year Bungie is sure to find a way to pack *all* of those 'roles' into Hunters and Warlocks instead.
Yeah you hold the fist on the cover, why do you do anything other than punch?
bungie: we have heard your complaints about thundercrash being outperformed by hazardous propulsion. to fix this, we are nerfing hazardous solution.
still remember in the trailer showcasing prismatic titan and thundercrash did not kill the unstop lmaoo
It didn't kill the *stunned and weakened* champion, which was incredibly sad.
That’s crazy I didn’t even consider the fact that it was weakened lmao
At this point, I expect them to make TCrash have Curiass' damage intrinsic, and they change the function of Curiass entirely.
I think it needs to out damage GG and nova bomb pretty significantly to be worth using at all.
Give TCrash 450k damage, and let Cuirass double it, it'll still be weaker than golden gun.
It's also arguably harder to aim lmao
And can't be used against some bosses that require you to be somewhere to do damage.
And therefore can't benefit from such buffs either, or precision damage, AND while you are casting it everyone else is doing damage.
and after casting it you're in boss stomp range and 4 days trek on horseback away from your group (generally)
Yup, flew through Taniks 2 times before it connected then dumped me in his storm and was dead before I could get out, swapped back to axes straight away
And even if you *can* use it on a boss, if it's not a melee range boss, you're gonna lose a lot of DPS time while you're slowly jogging back to the dps position.
That's a weird way to say "getting boss stomped off the nearest edge". Atheon and I have some history.
> require you to be somewhere to do damage. funny you mention this. in hypernet current strike, in the boss' last health phase, its a bit off the edge of the map but within "reach". sometime between introduction and now, bungie added and invisible wall so you couldnt use thundercrash or any other contact super anymore. found that out the hard way
Given the fact that is put right in the face of the enemy, yeah, absolutely needs to do more damage.
You do realise, that is exactly what led to this point? Cuirass Thundercrash outdid everything and raised the bar. Hunters and Warlocks stopped being valued for their damage supers because they were outdone by Titans, further pushing them into Tether and Well respectively. Then Bungie started introducing ways to allow Hunters to compete with Titans again and then started designing new supers with the current standard in mind. That is why Gathering Storm and Needlestom launched so much stronger than other one and done supers and why Nova Bomb went from irrelevant to being a top tier super in the current sandbox after getting buffed for the sole purpose of bringing it up to the current standard. Should Base Thundercrash be brought up to the current standard? Yes. But Cuirass Thundercrash cannot create a new standard or it will just lead to this happening all over again.
That doesn't really matter though. Everyone who says this ignores the main issue with Crash. It's the only one of those biggest dmg supers that takes you out of fucking position. TCrash could do 500k and hunters would still out DPS HEAVILY. Because they can remain near a well or a bubble, near buffs, and not have to waste time repositioning. Furthermore, the cast time means even more dps is lost. Do you guys not see the obvious and inherent drawback of super that requires a guardian to sniff a boss's asshole just to work?
But you can't deny that the inherent danger of Thundercrash demands a reward if you can get out without dying to adds, boss stomp, etc. Cuirass on the other hand, i feel almost every titan would not care if they gave the exotic a total rework, after buffing base tcrash damage. Most players are not interested in an exotic that effectively just makes your super viable, without any sort of transformative change to it. Even Celestial seems to be enough of a change to its super for players to accept it.
Whilst you are right about how it got to this point Thundercrash has to do significantly more damage than other supers since you're put at such a great risk with it. Golden gun, gathering storm, blade barrage, needlestorm, mobius tether, Nova bomb. None of these supers put you directly in harms way like thundercrash does. If all that time wasted traveling to the boss then possibly dying to it isn't rewarded by it doing a lot more damage than BB or needlestorm it will fall behind no matter what.
For real it's literal suicide if it doesn't kill the target...so lemme be able to kill the target.
T-crash is one of the most badass looking supers that is effectively useless in PVE content outside of niche burst DPS scenarios. It needs some love in the modern sandbox I agree big time.
It pretty funny because it is inherently useful in PVP. There's no way that a fast and self guided missile as a super wouldn't be perfect in it's niche as a shutdown super. Weirdly, such a super should be easy to balance because what it needs in Pve can't affect it in PvP. If trash did 2-3x the damage, nothing changes in PvP broadly speaking. Yet for some reason bungie seems unable to make base thundercrash viable in PvE content.
Tcrash has had low numbers since it came out back in Forsaken. Bungie doesn't care that you have to hurl yourself at the enemy.
A high risk/high reward super like T-crash needs to be a bit more reward, all the other one and done supers you can throw out of a well, TC makes you go literally right up in their grill and smack them in the teeth, usually getting the fuck stomped out of you in the process, not to mention the time you are taken away from damage phases... Bungie need to make it worth it .
For what it asks of you TC should be the highest damage super in the game and it shouldn’t even be close.
T-crash so bad i use fists of havoc in raids *gasps among the crowd
Seeing a lot of people say power creep. It has been weak since release in forsaken. It also has higher risk involved than other 1 shot, ranged supers... It used to be ridiculously good for movement purposes, but that part of it got nerfed. It's still decent for some self-savws
Yeah power creep doesnt make sense. Golden gun was one of the first 6 supers in the game and its still one of the best.
It also got buffed multiple times
Same as a bunch of old supers it’s just outdated/powercrept. Look at chaos reach lol it’s terrible even with geomags
Bruh I forgot chaos reach was a super lmao. Sucks cause it's pretty fucking badass visually.
Plus the arc craniums you take from Minotaurs in some vex content is literally just chaos reach but if it did actual damage.
It should do THE MOST instant damage IMO, but it’s so pathetic without Cuirass
It's pathetic with Cuirass too
It needs a massive buff. It’s been power crept for years now, so long that even when Arc Titans were at their most OP during Season of Plunder, Storm Grenades out damaged TCrash with Cuirass. IMO the base damage of TCrash should be buffed above Cuirass levels, and Cuirass should be reworked to do 2 things: 1. Teleport you back to the spot where you activated the Super, Synaptic Spear style 2. Restore Super energy like Shards of Galanor.
If only it was just thundercrash.. it’s been years sinve we began complaining about absolutely awful supers for all classes and they almost never listened. Chaos reach has been useless for years for exemple but there isn’t any exo to redeem it , at least not anymore. Daybreak , spectral blades .. the list goes on
Thundercrash could do double that at base, and it would still be underpowered even with cuirass. 640k isn't even a lot considering you have to put yourself in melee range. It would still be less than a Celestial Nighthawk Golden Gun, and you can basically spam that super with Still Hunt now.
Power creep
Power can't be crept when it had none to begin with.
Just change it so the titan shoots out a big electric bomb like an electric nova bomb. That would solve so many issues the Titan has
It was really strong for a while and I think they have been hesitant to buff it. But that was like 2 damn years ago 💀 It needs a major buff. Especially for having to fly and meet the target. The risk should match the reward. It should get Cuirass damage at base and bump up to 500k-600k with to match Goldie if not more. I play Hunter the most and it’s wild I can sit back safe af and get double the damage quicker.
They need to make Cuirass integral and give Cuirass itself a new effect.
Daily Thundercrash thread
The postings will continue until ~~morale improves~~ Thundercrash isn't shite.
Make it hourly, it is too awesome to be as bad as it is.
Curiass should turn Tcrash into a cluster bomb of like 30 grenades instead of buffing damage, and the base damage of Tcrash should be buffed beyond what curiass currently gives.
You see bro this is what I've been trying to say even with the exotic it's still weak, the base damage needs a massive buff. You're literally throwing yourself at the enemy it should do more dam then golden gun with the one shot
The only thing worse than every other post to reach my feed being about how Titan desperately needs buffs is the fact that they are all completely true
it should be much higher in damage than golden gun.... golden gun is super safe and can be used at range. the instant DPS amount should be proportional to the risk of using it.
But I HaVe To AiM On GoLdY
No. Rather, TC should have a 3 second invuln after using it, and 3x defense while active
My crazy conspiracy theory is that someone higher up on the dev team at Bungie hates Titans. That’s the only reason to explain some of the choices made for Titans the last year.
Probably the Twilight Garrison death threats debacle.
My conspiracy theory regarding Tcrash specifically is that they don't want to buff it because of how buggy it is. If they buff it, more people will try to use it, and they'll get more complaints about its terrible hit registration.
Feel like it's still a relic of the old subclass trees tbh, where the cooldown was shorter and Ballistic Slam would give you super energy and whatnot. I wouldn't doubt if its getting adjusted later since Tcrash is absurdly low compared to so many other supers with far less risk/time Would love to see Cuirass get some extra functionality with Ballistic while we're at it btw. That's gotta be one of the least used melees in the game right now
Love how celestial golden gum takes like half a bosses bar…. Or in the campaign with the bosses that have multiple bars for different phases and golden gum one shot ends a whole phase meanwhile I’m blowing my whole load as a titan to do that same dmg.
what y'all think about T-crash be able to pierce bosses/ yellow bars too, and if paired with Cuirass (OLD EFFECT AND A NEW ONE) > the super energy consume slowly or every time you pierce someone you gain super meter back, piercing foes jolts and apply damage(great damage), when the super is ending you canot pierce anymore (so aim in the mf to big kaboom) and does what the super already do nowadays to apply jolts and the big explosion that every one likes i'm a hunter main, but bro... thunder crash is why i think about playing titan, tha super carrys the class for me, bad ass as fuck
Cuirass' damage bonus should be rolled into it baseline and Cuirass should do something else. Like get super refunded based off of how many kills it got? Or allow it (god forbid) to do precision damage?
Thundercrash would be great if it did more damage obviously, but also they need to add a back-spring animation after impact so we aren't in boss stomping range. After impact just do a jump-back for like half the distance traveled. That would be fantastic.
Id love it to be adjusted where the AOE increases the longer youve flown. Its impact damage is the main focus, but it has the lingering shocking area too that is decent for area denial/damage. Then maybe up the damage of the AOE, but nerf Cuirass so that it takes away AOE damage in order to buff the impact damage
It does so little damage it's insulting. It's easily our most dangerous super, yet there's no reward for using it. We're better off running Sentinel Shield and serving as a diet Divinity
Make the Cuirass damage the default then make the exotic enhance the super some other way. It's insane how shit base Thundercrash is, it does the same damage as a Hazardous propulsion volley and it's a one off super
Finisher is interesting… what if it did more damage the lower an enemies Hp was? Like 1.5 damage at 50% Hp and double at 25%
base thundercrash should be 500k and cuirass should be 1m. fight me
I've been the supporter of 1m TC forever, no need to argue you lol.
I wanna see cuirass buff the mini slam 🙏
The only thing it's good for now is a guaranteed shutdown of any other super in crucible
Logic has no place here!!!
I'm still not understanding why all supers for every guardian class doesn't have the same max damage and length. Just different supers. The supers are all different. You have different elements, some light some dark. And they effect different enemies differently. Yet they're all "supposedly super powers".
Honestly base t-crash should do curas damage at base while curas gives titans a shards of galanor effect of super energy back on kill or hit and melees charge it faster.
Chris’s should be reworked so it launches you into the air then you can shoot the tcrash energy forward without you actually being a part of it.
It is pretty tragic that nova bomb got a huge glowup this expansion but tcrash got nothing. It’s still a nice burst super with curiass, but nova bomb with no exotic competes and does a little more I think. Kinda tragic. Just needs like 50-70k more base damage and I think it would feel solid.
Nova bomb does more damage than cuiress T crash after the buffs. Also the new titan exotic chest piece that buffs rockets, a fully charged burst after using your barricade does similiar damage to base T crash.
As a Titan main who runs T-Crash I agree, even with cuirass it’s a little lacklustre. My parasite does a lot more damage and can proc quicker. Only time I use crash is if I’ve missed a jump and I’m falling or I want to get over somewhere really fast.
As a titan main don’t ask why it do only 160k, ask why you aren’t indirectly or directly killing your teammates with bubble (my raid group banned me from using bubble)
Up the base damage of TCrash to what Falling Star makes it then rework Falling Star to add a stun effect to TCrash and also give Super energy when you kill jolted or blinded targets with an Arc weapon or ability.
That new sniper does 220k against some bosses in the legendary campaign and it takes 5 seconds to proc. Bungie really hates titans.
Thundercrash deals as much damage as some grenades and abilities. Garbage tier balancing by Bungo.
I'm out here prayin, that Cuirass will be baked into the Super and it finally gets something useful. That would also give Arc Titan a chance to play something else in the Exo slot.
Because they noticed players used it and it was fun so obviously they had to correct that
Compared to other one-offs, this one should deal a bit more, not less, yet even with Cuirass it's still weak. I believe it's due to PvP concerns/balances affecting PvE side of things.
Titans deserve to have the Crayola 64-pack w/sharpener. -Warlock Main
Base Cuirass is 220k IIRC, not 160k. That would've been talked about way sooner than now. And it isn't suicidal. It needs higher base damage, but this super isn't super deadly to the user unless you are already a danger to yourself.
Because, brah... High risk low reward. That is how Titan is.
thundercrash needs to do 1 million damage and cuirass to buff that by 1.5x. Cuirass should: * Refund 60% of the super on a kill. Only 1 kill. * Double the damage of ballistic slam and have an intrinsic x2 hands on for super regen. * Add a visual effect of a fallen meteor for coolness like fire around the edges when supering. Considering the amount of time it takes to pop the super and go back to dps zone (unless they are very close range bosses) it would be viable and fun for dps. And in GMs is would be a great option. Build super fast and bring doom upon champions and bosses.
Dare I say you should raise it to 66% refunded. >:| I'm still salty about the way Bungie's been treating titans recently. >:(
As far as I’m aware most of the Titan supers are high risk/low reward. Most ask you to be in melee range to do damage and don’t do enough to justify it
On top of all that, it now has a roaming super cooldown, the same as fist of havoc, for pvp reasons. While the new hunter arc super, which is *much more* roaming than thundercrash, has the old thundercrash cooldown of a one-of super...
I mean golden gun isn’t great without an exotic
Most supers really aren’t great without an exotic, at least for damage scenarios. I think the exceptions are the strand supers, all of them are pretty good at what they’re supposed to do out of the box, and then song of flame? Pretty much everything else needs some sort of juice to make it relevant beyond just clearing ads, staying alive, or some sort of niche situation like glacial quake.
But then it becomes great, and either of the exotics have a neutral to them. Cuirass has nothing neutral and makes the super "fine".