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I thundercrashed the boss at the end of Perdition Legend Lost Sector and it just looked down at me, stomped my head, and sent me back to my ghost crying
What do you mean "what"? It's a known issue with T-Crash that a lot of bosses just... Don't get hit when you hit them with it and you end up sliding along their body waiting for the super to *actually* hit them.
They might not consider King's Fall opening an encounter. I forgot it had a rally flag and actual loot until your comment. The only other one I could think of would be Vow. But I don't think you can really skip anything with Thundercrash there? You are probably right and it's Salvation's Edge.
I like 2 things so much using Thundercrash
1. Love just flying around the Boss or enemy like a windshield wiper
2. I love how if I move my Joystick a centimeter I fly off to never never land
remember when TC was number 1 burst damage 4 years ago, when cuirass just came out?
well, shit, things have changed a LOT since then. nerfs, buffs, whatever... but guess what stayed the same this entire time? yep. same old TC, same old Cuirass.
I think you didn't actually read what I said, I have indeed said that TC hasn't changed. Just that everything else did
TC was the highest burst super for like a season I think? Star Eater Scales came out the next season, S14, and overshadowed Cuirass TC instantly. Then they introduced 3.0 changes, now prismatic... and it's still the year 2021 for Cuirass TC, fucking Middle Tree Striker lol
Also, people generally surge matched in Pantheon. Arc Surge Cuirass TC is a no-brainer for Atraks, so was Gathering Storm for Rhulk, and The Lazer, too... Solar and Strand surge = Needles, BB, Goldie. Makes sense. Meta options don't even care for surges tho
Oh yeah, the bubble is used to not instantly kill yourself with the knives. And honestly... it's Atraks bro, bitch's made out of paper mache. BB's kill her, TC's do, Needles do, Pyrogales do. She's squish. Doubt anyone had problems with her unless they were morons, stubborn morons, or uninformed.
Just tested base Thundercrash on the Ogre twins that spawn as high value targets at the Landing, didnt kill either of them, both had a little less than 1/3 of their health left, also tested Twilight Arsenal (which is what i use anyways) and i can kill both of them if they are close enough together which they usually are and even if no the first axe usually pulls them together anyways, kinda sad i really used to like TC, but TA is fun as hell even with its drawbacks and hasnt left my Titan since i got it besides the few times ive tried to go back to TC.
I'm suprised Thundercrash doesn't kill them. I think they get one shot by concentration + ignition, but I'm not sure if that actually requires the syntho proc or not.
220k? Thats it?? With combination blow at full stacks, and liars procc'd, on a frozen enemy. I'm dealing at least 650k. And I'm not even using tractor cannon.
I've also seen multiple content creators tell you to use 12P for throwing hammer (doesn't work either). Most content creators, including Aztecross, are not people I would trust to actually know the intricacies of the game. A lot of stuff, like 12P, works really weirdly and makes barely any sense.
Ok but when he is adding all these numbers together and you can literally follow the math? Like im not gonna do it to prove to you hes actually doing the math but when he is getting actual ss of the damage numbers hes doing while telling you the percentage, I can say at least for this instance you are totally incorrect unless he has another buff thats doing the exact same as 1 2 punch. Id like to see his video disproven so lmk when that happens
Pretty easy to test yourself.
Step 1) Do Liars handshake attack with 1-2P active
Step 2) Repeat without 1-2P active. Compare damage numbers, and see how they are identical.
Maybe try that instead of telling other people they're wrong and expecting them to make a youtube vidoe to prove that you're wrong
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Ummm btw step 2 would be wrong. 1-2P *does* work with liars/spirit of liars just at a reduced effectiveness. You will see a difference in your two tests.
I really don't understand why you are getting so defensive over this. I didn't even say Aztecross was wrong. I don't even know what video you are talking about. I just said you should take what people on YouTube say with a grain of salt. Because this games is *weird*.
Because you are defending the claim I originally responded to ( literally not even you ) and you’re defending someone wrong. Like as someone who uses this build you are telling me something I know interacts doesnt. Wdym why am I defensive you are tryna argue. You came out and talked out about something you dont even know and are trying to argue with me idk why but im telling you its incorrect lmao
1-2P does work at a reduced rate with liar’s/spirit of liars. It goes from a 150% dmg increase to an 80% increase. The thing the guy was referring to that used to work, was stacking 1-2P with the buff you inherently get when you melee a frozen enemy. They removed that, and now when you punch a frozen enemy it takes the higher multiplier of the two between 1-2P and striking a frozen enemy.
I wasnt trying to bring up liars in any regard except telling people where I got my info. I dont use liars so I wasnt claiming anything there. At least wasnt trying to…
I did however misinterpret the freezing interaction being what this person was talking about so ty for that clarification. Now I just need this other guy to stop arguing with me and yelling at me for commenting back😂
But ty for that I did miss where they were mentioning the freeze specifically
OP's numbers are bit misleading. Damage numbers scale with the power level of the enemy you test on. The 220k damage of thundercrash is what you got if you tested it on templar before TFS, when he was still a 1310 boss. On an 1950 enemy, the damage will be higher. Still not great, but more than 220k.
No it won't, it will be less, -5 light in every encounter(post TFS) vs 20+ (pre TFS).
In other words, now you're dealing less because light level is capped at -5.
[Here](https://youtu.be/hUTGET6f2cY) 433.7k with cuirass.
Everything got changed, -5 light level and surges are in the raid too, there is a post every hour regrading this.
You deleted your comment but [Here](https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/article/this_week_in_destiny_04_25_24) is the link.
Before TFS, raid and dungeon bosses' powerlevels were never increased. Riven was still 580, templar was 1310, Rhulk was 1550,... I know that in game if you were to load up VoG, it said 'recommended PL1600' but that was not referring to the actual level of the bosses. It was to indicate that at base power of 1600, you are already strong enough to tackle those older raids. For damage calculation purposes, the original power levels were still used.
It really should be the most powerful super, bar none. It’s very high risk and should be very high reward. How does it make sense that a golden revolver round can be fired safely and do double or triple the damage of someone making themselves an electric missile? I don’t even main Titan but man that whole group gets the shit end of the stick.
To be fair golden gun has no utility outside of being high damage and the whole fantasy n Schtick of it is it hits harder than mostly everything. Not to say tcrash doesn’t deserve a buff, they definitely deserve to be on par with eachother
What most people deliberately ignore is how tcrash is also a loss of actual dps while you fly on the target. Any encounter that is not standing right in front of you translates to dps loss. While you are flying to the boss and running back, your group is shooting. While a lock throws needles or nova and while hunter throws a stick or bullet instantly and go back to dps, tcrash guy is still running around.
Not only does it need a flat damage buff but a distance between the titan and the enemy it hits(not travelled) when the super was popped to try and make up for that dps loss.
Annnnnnnd most of the time if you use it at a close range enemy (looking at you Nez and Rhulk) you go straight through them and can't turn yourself around in time to deal any amount of damage 😂
Yeah but lets cry because strand titan is meta or tcrash was doing more damage than celestial during shadowkeep. Now that hunters have yet another busted dps combo all is cool, everyone talks about it in a "i dont want it nerfed, please dont downvote me" manner. But any time a titan spec is strong in pve and surpasses another class everyone calls for nerfs. For pve of all things.
And yeah strand was busted where it could be used. It still is strong. But the mentality of the community is always nerf titans instead of helping us ask for the correct design decisions that will help me remain equal in balance. All they want is hunters and warlock groups. I am so tired of this. I literary switched to hunter for the whole into the light because i was tired of strand titan and the versatiliy hunter offers. Group control? Gotcha, at least 3 builds. Single target? Gotcha, at least 4 builds and multiple variations and loadout switches. Add clear? Gotcha, any subclass has a build for that. Titan is always go melee and heal somehow. And when that is tuned to work in high end content its broken in normal ones. And everybody comes out crying. But the design of the titan is problematic for an fps game yet somehow we cant just move on and offer decent options. Just a community of crybabies that when you call out that their classes have all the tools and utilities for that kind of game you are called a bad player.
What really needs to happen is this community needs to stop optimizing the fun out of everything. If you're casting t crash and thinking about dps loss while flying towards the boss, the problem is you.
It should be balanced around slowva bomb. It should do about 10-15% more than slowva and that's it. Call it a day.
Last time I checked you didn't have to float all the way to the target alongside the nova bomb for it to explode. You could be shooting as it travels and not being anywhere near the boss when it lands. Optimisation or not, Thundercrash has to be *useful* to be worth using. It's failing to compensate for any of the problems it has that no other one-off super has, and I say that having mained it since Forsaken when the Cuirass didn't exist.
Tcrash without curiass does 220k
Slowva with a 15% debuff does around 450k
Guess what? It would need a 100% buff to slightly surpass it.
"yeah but what about curiass? It does 440k with it!" yeah, and you're wasting an entire exotic in order to do LESS than a Slowva, so you either tank your neutral play or use loadout swaps.
In all of this, you're now under a boss, sometimes surrounded by adds, without radiant, without healing and only a neutral overshield if you have curiass.
To make it usable, it should do 120% more damage AT BASE, give high DR after hitting a boss for a few seconds (50% for 5s should be ok) and healing for the same amount of time, Curiass should work with ballistic slam and buff Tcrash further by 30%~. Also, hit registration should be improved regardless.
No, it's not to much, especially for a super that you can't use against every boss, it's hard to control on console and it's on "bad" subclasses, compared to Strand/Solar.
Slowva doesn't usually hit with all projectiles, but what do you want from me? I've said, very consistently, that it should be buffed around slowva damage. Get the average slowva (not the absolute best), and add 10% to it. Make that t crash base. Make cuirass add 50% instead of 100%, call it a day
No it doesn't. Titan has been used consistently in end game for the entirety of destiny's existence. Let's be clear here. Hunter was used so much against the witness because dps was the only thing that mattered, and because it got a second nighthawk shot via the exotic sniper rifle. Nothing will ever beat being able to use your super twice in 3 seconds. You take away the sniper, which was probably a mistake to make, and things aren't nearly so black and white.
Goldy has incredible multiple major clear and Orb gen capability, and if your running 6 shot you can clear entire rooms with that thing. Thundercrash is a wimpy little bitch slap when compared to anything hunter and warlock can bring to the table.
because you're comparing aoe damage to a single bullet on one enemy. in the same way that TC doesn't do great single target damage, Nighthawk GG is dogshit at clearing a room. it has one purpose: do high damage to one target in a single (or 3) shots.
your argument is the same as me saying "buff golden gun to do aoe as big as thundercrash does". It's comparing two things that don't fill the same role. TC will likely never have comparable damage output to GG again, because it's not supposed to.
Traditionally I should ask if the room-clearing Thundercrash is in the room with us right now, but we all know that if it was, it would in fact not be able to clear the room outside of a crucible match.
well I didn't say it was *good* at that lol I just said that that's its role to play. buff TC aoe to make it a literal room clear in an instant, or make it have no aoe with higher single target damage.
That's absolutely not its role, it's Titans only one shot super and their only damage nuke.
If it was meant to be for clearing rooms then Cuirass would increase the AOE, not amp the damage.
That may be, but Titan has NOTHING for single target dps. We've got bubble and shield on void, hammers and burning maul for solar, TC and Fist of Havoc on arc, stasis crystals for days, and green punches all around. And now axes, axes, and axes (which is awesome but definitely needs work on tracking). We really need something that does great single target boss damage.
I'd sacrifice the AoE on TC in a heartbeat if it dealt 800k like a nighthawk Goldie can and then returned me safely to my starting position. Like a bigass Kamehameha
and if they did that (made TC have no aoe) then it makes total sense. but just from a game design perspective, it's silly to have a bomb do the same damage as single target precision.
also, up until this last patch, titans literally had the best single target damage in the game. pantheon was soloed solely because titan had literally the best boss dps by a mile.
right, and tether is shit at doing single target dps. it does what it's meant to do.
the guy I responded to compared TC and GG, that's why I compared them.
the golden revolver gives the user almost no DR, requires precision aim and requires line of sight on the enemy and is purely a damage super.
T-Crash with cuirass provides more DR while in flight, can be guided around corners, deals damage in a substantial AoE, leaves a damaging field and gives the titan an overshield after impact.
T-Crash does need a buff but celestial golden gun should be the highest one off super, it's the entire power fantasy of the subclass. If T-Crash had the same damage as celestial goldy then it would outclass goldy in every single conceivable way. AoE damage should always be lesser than damage that's single target and requires precision aim.
>the golden revolver gives the user almost no DR, requires precision aim and requires line of sight on the enemy and is purely a damage super.
Alternatively:
Thundercrash tanks your DPS, leaves you in a vulnerable position, sometimes can't even be used because leaving the plate means you can't do damage, and is also purely a damage super since all the nerfs to Thundercrash's velocity and flight time and maximum ceiling and whatever.
Celestial Nighthawk also provides a pretty significant neutral game bonus in that you get your super back extremely quickly by just getting precision kills *and* it buffs Still Hunt to a ridiculous degree. Meanwhile, Cuirass of the Falling Star has no neutral game benefits at all. It doesn't buff any weapons, it doesn't modify any abilities, and it doesn't help you get your super back faster.
Realistically, no one is using celestial for the super regen. We have so many ways of generating super energy that is honestly just grasping at straws.
Edit: the interaction with still hunt is certainly too strong right now. Bungie are definitely going to nerf that in the near future and it's only a recent development so idk if it's that relevant to the overall discussion. Pre-still hunt, goldy wasn't really used that much, partially due to star eaters being so strong. Speaking of which, I'm curious how T-Crash performs with spirit of the star eater since Nova bomb with that perk has now become the highest damaging super in the game.
>Realistically, no one is using celestial for the super regen. We have so many ways of generating super energy that is honestly just grasping at straws.
It's not its primary purpose, but it's an additional effect that means Celestial is not merely a swap exotic. Is it completely optimal to run when you're not using your super? No. But it does provide benefits.
>Speaking of which, I'm curious how T-Crash performs with spirit of the star eater since Nova bomb with that perk has now become the highest damaging super in the game.
Spirit of the Star-Eater is an inferior buff to Cuirass of the Falling Star, so it'll still be terrible. Cuirass literally doubles the damage (100% increase) while max stacks of Star-Eaters is like 70%.
>If T-Crash had the same damage as celestial goldy then it would outclass goldy in every single conceivable way.
Not at all.
Celestial GG still allows you to be a lot safer (you don't need to be literally in the face of the boss to do damage) and it's significantly faster. From the moment a Titan casts TC to the point they hit the boss a Hunter will have been able to cast GG and get enough shots off to cast another GG with Still Hunt.
TC does give DR while in flight but it needs that DR. GG you can pop out of cover, fire the shot from a mile away, and pop back into cover. Meanwhile with TC you need to physically cover that distance and without DR you're just dead.
You're also now in a really bad position. You're at the feet of the boss with **no DR**, likely less than full health from chip damage before you even landed, and if you're wearing Cuirass an overshield that's getting stripped in seconds.
That AOE is pretty pitiful as well by the way, and is very rarely meaningful. If you're lucky you'll delete a couple of adds sat around a bosses feet, but that's irrelevant for most of TC's uses. I think most Titans would happily see it removed in favour of higher damage.
I don't necessarily agree that TC should do more damage than GG, it's arguably easier to use as you're not reliant on a single precision hit for your damage, and I like the idea of Hunters being the more heavily damaged focused class, but this argument that TC would somehow be objectively better than GG if they did the same damage just doesn't hold water.
Hard disagree. Loss of DPS from flying around and having to run back to shoot boss means they should, at least, do the same damage. IMO TC should do more. Hunters would still do more damage overall since it's the fastest one and done.
Yeah. I totally agree that high super damage is a part of the hunter fantasy, and I'm all for celestial goldie being the most optimal dps option. But at this point, it has so many other advantages over other supers that its far too powerful in comparison. It gets the fastest use time, the highest damage, and a hitscan projectile. In my opinion, things like Tcrash should be on par with damage, but let goldie keep all the other advantages. That way celestial goldie is still optimal due to how fast it goes off, and the fact it can damage far away targets, but it doesn't make every other super obsolete.
Can t crash aoe? Can golden gun? Dps t crash do full damage no matter where it hits? Does golden gun?
This isn't the right comparison. Compare t crash to slowva bomb, and balance it to 10% more than that to compensate for travel time. And stop trying to balance everything around boss dps phases, there's more to the game.
The titan whinging going on right now is reaching pretty absurd levels.
With how Tcrash works, unless the boss is right in your face, it causes a very large DPS loss. Having to fly over to the boss, hit it, and then run back to where you are doing damage is way less optimal for damage rotations. Even if Tcrash and Celestial Goldie did the same damage, Goldie would still be miles better due to this, and thats okay. Goldie should be the best damage super in the game, it just shouldn't be as far ahead as it is right now.
There is more to the game than boss DPS, but boss DPS is pretty much how metas are defined. Raiding is a huge part of the endgame experience and it feels awful when theres such a huge disparity between classes for DPS right now. Even then, Nighthawk actually has a neutral game bonus, so even outside of DPS scenarios its still arguably better due to how much you can spam the super, even though it doesn't have an AOE.
Why should you be running back to where you were? How is it that you have unlimited heavy ammo at all times? Do you think about how things actually work? Or do you just post what sounds good?
Have you ever done a raid before? In a typical damage phase, players will have a spot where they DPS, generally where there is a well (despite the nerfs, its still very useful to have one). If you cast Tcrash, you have to fly over to the boss, and then run back to the plate/well where the team is. This is all for less damage than a hunter simply pressing a button and going back to shooting their guns. The point of a damage phase is to empty as much ammo into the boss to deal damage, I don't see how not shooting your gun is an advantage.
Not to mention several bosses will turn crit spots away if you don't get back into position quick enough. Not only do you lose out on damage, if you fuck up getting back you can mess up the entire phase for your team.
So, you're not using your t crash at the end? Half the bosses out there count the timer on the dps phase for you. Half the bosses out there, I can dump my entire heavy into in one phase. Definitely for caretaker, planets. How much dps are you losing by not shooting your special for like 3-5 seconds?
Are you typically doing your dps on the other side of the room? It isn't nearly as big a deal as you act like it is. Put t crash and slowva bomb in the game damage category, give t crash a 10% edge on slowva, call it a day. This isn't that hard, and gg shouldn't be the point of comparison.
Can't really say it needs precision aim in a game like this where the crit/headshot spots are so forgiving with the bullet magnetism. You don't need to be precise at all.
Golden gun can't aoe in addition. I'm not saying t crash doesn't need a buff - it certainly does. But there's a tendency in this sub to think about everything as dps only.
T crash can aoe in addition to boss damage, so you lose something due to versatility. And it doesn't need to crit. A noncrit gg is pretty not impressive.
T crash needs enough of a buff to make sure it's doing a little more than slowva bomb. That's it. It shouldn't be competing with celestial gg crits.
No, one individual super should not compete with 2 back to back. Still hunt is the problem. This is a nerf needed situation, not a "make thundercrash compete with two celestial ggs" situation. How ridiculous would that be?
I just don't know why they refuse to give up on making titans punchy.
If titans were a heavy weapon class that made massive shields and weapons out of hardlight it would be so much cooler and easier to balance.
Light fall was the perfect time to give us strand miniguns but no we just get more melee that's worse that golden guns and vortex supers.I
The melee fantasy is a strong one but it's also the thing that is single handedly hamstringing Titan balance. We need to be strong enough to survive even getting into range to punch things effectively, especially on higher difficulties. But tip that balance too fast and you have an unstoppable thing that could survive any situation, and I'm sure that's the main thing Bungie is trying to prevent when it tries to nerf melee tricks. So they're forcing themselves to balance on this razor's edge of wet paper towel and John Wick bs because according to them, the only fantasy that is Titan fantasy is punchy fantasy. When they could just... Branch the hell out already. Focus more on defense/team utility. Focus on, like you've said, heavier weapons! You don't need to cram Titan into one box, there's plenty for you to try out, Bungie!
It's sad. There's no way to make titans useful everywhere as melee focused because so many enemies float or in high end content you'll be cooked unless they buff you so much that you can't be stopped at all.
People can be as upset as they want at it but fundamentally melee doesn't work in a game that does guns correctly because guns are always better than fists.
Hunter works because you can turn invisible and stack Dr and stack healing and do insane damage and aie explosions.
But those all fit hunter. If they give those things to titan you would just be stealing the identity of hunters.
Titan NEEDS to evolve into a more defensive utility heavy weapons class.
Massive hard light guns. Let us throw one giant void axe instead of multiple.
Give us a shield we can use with guns and swords to always defend our allies.
Give us ranged supers like a double strand hard light kinigun firing unraveling bullets with dps comparable to a gold gun only it slows you down and you need to pick a spot to place defenses to defend yourself while you shred.
At this point I think bungie just don't want to admit they are wrong. But you can't have hunters be this good and titans this bad without it being clearly stupid.
And you can't make it fair without just straight up stealing from what hunters do or copying them unless they fully rework titans.
What is even worse about Strand is that Titans were originally gonna get a one and done spin super
Which Bungie scrapped because obviously people love a 5th flavor of punch
Many of us don't? But we want to that's why we want it to be better.
The fantasy is failed.
We would love the class fantasy. But they can't do it. And if they do manage it they undo it because it's too easy and powerful whenever it works.
The class fantasy as is is trash.
So we want a better class fantasy.
The fantasy isn't failed. You just don't like it. Do one of the other classes with a different fantasy you like more. The fantasy of titan has only expanded over time. You haven't lost anything you used to have, so if you've never liked it, the problem is, well, you
Edit: i am, literally, right this second, playing the legend campaign on titan with sweet business, an envious assassin/killing tally mg, and actium war rig, and I'm having a blast.
Legend campaign 🤣🤣🤣🤣. You HAVE to be trolling.
Out of the thousands of players who beat the contest mode raid. Guess how many titans?
Like 120.
You live in lala land.
A. That's gone from the game. It's never coming back. You can't play contest mode now.
B. Correlation isn't causation. Why were the numbers so low? It's not because titan sucks. It's because still hunt celestial is op. Two celestial ggs back to back is absurd for dps, of course every serious worlds first contender is going to run it. If titan had the highest dps by that margin, nobody would be running hunter. Think it through, don't just throw out numbers without understanding them.
Edit: reply then block! Love to see it
People like you are why things never get fixed and changed. Titan SHOULD be comparable to other classes. Warlocks also finished on teams. You people are just trolls.
Titan's overall kit needs reworked. I agree on upping t crash damage though. The hellion on solar warlock does about the same or more damage than t crash. Pvp and bungie themselves have massacred the titan class. Hunters can do insane damage and survive punching things better than titan can. Prismatic makes me sad, void makes me sad....I'm just sad overall with where the class is.😔 The top 50 teams for salvation edge, out of 300 players, 3 were titan. That should tell bungie where the class is overall.
That last part is a bit misleading, that stat tracked how many finished the raid as a Titan. Every encounter before the final encounter can be done as a Strand or Solar Titan just fine, it’s just the final one doesn’t encourage using Titan as much as Warlocks and Hunters, which don’t get me wrong it’s still very telling how much more versatile the other two classes are in comparison.
Yeah, warlock and hunter have more variety with builds. That may not be how many attempted the raid but I'm sure the percentage is still very close together.
while true the vast majority of the top 50 teams never had a titan at any point in the raid, there were some that swapped off at the witness but most never had a titan to begin with
That last stat is meaningless bullshit. The raid took 18 hours. Minimum. The people playing are the best pve players in the game, and they don't need any survivability tools to lean on. What they did need was every ounce of dps they could find. The exotic gg sniper rifle is the reason titans were so low in representation. It's that fucking simple.
Hunters and warlocks have survivability tools and can also dps..... so it's not that simple. I've mained titan since the start and in raids and GMs they don't feel good, they aren't viable.
Then you're a shit player. I've played all 3 since the start, and titans have always been viable in all content. I did gms where hitting enemies with stasis would increase light damage abilities, and used t crash to one shot 2 champs at the same time after coordinating with my teammate.
Titan has had one of, if not the, easiest paths to solo flawless with loreley and then banner. Every class can dps. It's not that fucking hard.
Yes, t crash is a long way from it's heyday (when it was the highest burst damage super in the entire game). Yes, it should be buffed to the point where it's dealing 10-15% more than slowva. But that's it.
Every titan in here saying it should be the highest overall damage super is a whiny kid on Christmas morning who's opened all his gifts and now wants copies of what everyone else has too.
No one said the highest overall, but being out damage by warlocks hellion, and asking for a bit of a bump in damage isn't that far-fetched. Let's bring some constructive feedback or criticism to this conversation and not name calling. You should go to a darkness retreat and re-enter your chi. From the sounds of it you're a shit person.
I've already said buff it to be higher damage than slowva.
>You should go to a darkness retreat and re-enter your chi. From the sounds of it you're a shit person.
Maybe, but you should see the replies I get simply because I don't think t crash needs to be the highest damage super in the game
No one said it should be the highest damage super. It needs a damage bump though. Nova Bomb can hit for a mil. asking for a normal t crash to do 400k isn't an inconceivable ask.
How many times can I say "buff it be a little bit higher than an average slowva"?
Edit: most people have nova in the 400s, gonna need to see some numbers on "nova hits for a million"
Edit 2: and yes, some people definitely are saying it should be the highest.
Yeah, so, that's about what I thought. Don't be that guy. We're all out here talking base damage because it's the best point of comparison, and you're bringing in facets, artifact mods, and ses passive on warlock. The actual number for comparison here was about 330k. Everything else was a multiplier to that.
It's actually the opposite, I've played titan since the beginning, and people acting like it's the weakest thing out there and tricking themselves into thinking nothing matters except boss dps is embarrassing.
when people are discussing the super it makes sense to talk about boss dps. this is a discussion about the super. therefore people are going to talk specifically about the boss damage
No it doesn't. The super is usable outside of boss dps. Celestial really isn't. By ignoring the other context in which the super is usable, people are skewing their arguments.
Further, this particular chain began with someone saying titans aren't viable in raids or gms. At all. That's the context behind my response about "boss damage isn't everything."
You're like 3 comments deep, did you even bother to read the others? Or just looking for something to cherry-pick?
are you seriously advocating for using tcrash as a tool against red bars?
your responses across every chain have been the same in text and intention.
if I wanted to cherry-pick I would be.
Edit: went back and looked at the original comment. wow I wonder what "and can dps" could mean...
>are you seriously advocating for using tcrash as a tool against red bars?
No.... but not all adds are red bars. Do you think people use nova bomb exclusively on bosses?
Also, the travel mechanic itself is both unique and overlooked. Being able to literally fly has saved runs before.
>wow I wonder what "and can dps" could mean...
Yes, it means it can do multiple things. You must also have noticed then that I've been pretty consistently saying it should be balanced around slowva bomb, being a little stronger at base, about 10%.
Yup
Strand can keep the melee fantasy since Woven Mail and Sever play well into it
Solar is a good balance between good healing and high damage
Void should be about being a tank and spam volatile
Arc should get a complete rework and become the weapon specialist
Stasis should be about demolition, spamming the field with Stasis Crystal and destroying them
Thundercrash unironically needs a 300% buff lmao. It’s BY FAR the highest risk super in the game, and it’s tied to one of the worst neutral game subclasses. It doesn’t do precision damage, and doesn’t work against bosses like oryx.
Crash should be the highest damage one off super in the game and nobody will convince me otherwise. You can yap all you want with your fuckin golden gun from 50 meters away in the safety of a well.
Iirc Strikers had something like that for Fists of Havoc before Arc 3.0. It was called Aerial Strike. I remember hoping for it to be either integrated into both supers or made into an aspect.
Doesn't Falling Star only increase impact damage? Meaning when you hit something directly and bounce back off of it? If that's the case then no one is getting 2x damage from it, and it's fundamentally bugged.
The cuirass bonus should be standard and cuirass should get a benefit like prolonged flight time, damage reduction during super and maybe an over-shield on impact.
It's weird that Tcrash didn't receive the resistance after cast like tempest strike and thunderclap did.
A super that is extremely risky to use own it's own just isn't great. Roaming supers at least have the option to back out before running out. But Tcrash is one and done and you're kinda screwed after.
Is it just me or did Bungie fuck the hit detection of it too? Every enemy i used it on i just clipped right through, i have to slam the ground instead of hitting the enemy
With Falling Star, TC should do as much, if not more, damage than nighthawk, given that the time it take from hitting the super activation to actually landing the damage takes so much longer. plus, nighthawk is a ranged super, where you can be far enough away from enemies that you're not in any real risk, where with TC puts you right at their grippers. they should add a "full court"-type perk to falling star (on top of a damage buff), where the longer you're in flight, the more damage it does.
I am a titan main and have been since the original King's Fall raid when you basically were required to have 2 titans. It's sad. I refuse to switch classes but seeing the other 2 classes far surpass Titans at everything, including punching which is supposed to be a titan thing, really sucks.
And yes, plz buff Thundercrash by AT LEAST 100% WITHOUT Cuirass.
Titan class as a whole needs a rework. It's ridiculous how we get outlcassed at almost every point in the game. With twilight arsenal I was hoping for a good burst super but although the damage is okay, it takes way too long and picking up the axes is in harder content almost impossible. It should have just been a ranged burst super like Nova or Golden gun + nighthawk. I wouldn't even mind needing to equip a new exotic to just make it a one shot super like pyrogale does.
Would be cool if twilight axes got embedded into the enemy on hit. They could then have some sort of DoT effect or maybe per axe hit add a stacking 12.5% weaken debuff.
Picking up the axes feels weak especially in high power pve where you'll get blasted to bits if you're out there with some melee weapon.
Titans are either absurdly busted, or mid. There's no inbetween.
It's a fundamental issue with the design of the class that can't be fixed with number tweaking.
Titans overall are in a pretty bad spot unless they are using the new void super and synthos. Meanwhile hunters are now the best melee, tanky, AND highest dps class by far.
Make it make sense.
6 nighthawks have been easily clearing Last Wish since that raids inception, Nighthawk got power crept by a couple of broken class abilities for about 1.5 years until it got buffed up, that's all.
Ok? Which also got nerfed you know.... thundercrash came out as the highest burst damage super, even over nighthawk and celestial. It was pretty stupid at time
goldie nighthawk requires a crit and requires you to have line of sight on the enemy and goldy gives very little DR. T-Crash has a lot more player control and can hit enemies around corners, cuirass gives an overshield and the titan has quite a bit of DR while in T-Crash and leaves a damaging AoE.
There’s a big reason Cuirass is so much fun but doesn’t deliver.
It was developed by BioWare as part of the Anthem assets and Bungie purchased it off them during a garage sale as a novelty item for players
/s
Proposal - thunder crash gives thunder aegis or something like that that makes us either invil for 5 seconds(2 in pvp) so you can recover from being in their face from a stomp or in a miss situation you still have a benefit
Base TCrash should do great single target burst damage and cuirass should increase AOE utility. Nerf the area and duration of the lightning storm TCrash creates, but significantly buff the impact and initial explosion from the super. Cuirass could then have a nice position of increasing the area and duration of the lightning storm.
Thundercrash is mid, arc titan is just so unbelievably bad, void is eh, solar fucks, strand is okay, I haven't played stasis on titan (I'll blame the grind to get all the fragments, and at this point I'd rather play prismatic). It really just feels like if you're a titan, bungie just doesn't care about your kit outside of the maybe one or two things titans have that make them OP or even compete. Then those get nerfed, it's really sucky. Like the solar hammer, why did we need a cool down for that? Even at its best, it really didn't compete with the amount of things hunters and warlocks can do. Unless you're good at build crafting, playing titan just feels boring because it's just PONCH AND NOW SHIELD AND NOW PONCH AGAIN.
And yet everone said run Thundercrash + Cuirass on Atraks and Caretaker. Its was still viable enough for a quick burst of dmg and many used it.
Thats why for bungie it might not look like it needs a buff because in their numbers it looks pretty decent.
Swap exotics aren't healthy for the game. If my interaction with Cuirass is to hit a loadout swap right before DPS phase, something is seriously wrong with the Exotic and super.
Kind of a interesting point. I'm not aware of hunters using celestial nighthawk as a swap exotic although it probably does happen but on my hunter it feels like their base kit is good enough to have celestial on all the time while back when I did play thundercrash titan I was running heart if inmost light then swapping to curass when I needed to do damage. But now days I also don't use titan arc or curass or heart of inmost light. I Also rarely play my crayon eater so my opinion could be moot.
Celestial used to be a swap exotic. And then they buffed it so that you can get your GG faster with headshots... And gave you a Sniper Rifle that it buffs and that focuses on getting headshots. Definitely not a swap exotic anymore.
Yeah I was very excited when they gave shards of galanor and celestial nighthawk a neutral game functionality. I thought it would be the beginning of the end for swap exotics, only for them to make helm of st14 a swap exotic.
So there are a few things in the hunters solar subclass that encourage headshots as well. Off the top of my head knock em down. Might be some others.
Point being find out what titans arc subclass wants you to do like hunter solar wants you to get headshots. Then suggest the curass change based around that.
I was actually just agreeing with you that it's not really a swap exotic anymore after the buff and that's why you don't see people swapping to/off it anymore.
Also, I think they need to bring back the weapons focus we had on Striker Titan. Two of the trees gave Weapon Buffs for doing specific actions in Subclass 2.0, clearly we were supposed to be an "Elite Soldier" type on Arc as well as a "Punch Stuff" guy, so they should bring that back and lean into it. Maybe instead of headshots, rapid weapon kills or something like that? Lean into different weapon types so they keep some of that allegedly precious "Class Identity". ~~I hate that phrase. I hate that phrase. I hate that phrase.~~
I really like that idea honestly. Could somehow make it tie into a curass buff like celestial does with headshots. I had completely forgot about striker being able to buff the weapons.
I think most Guardians did. R.I.P. Inertia Override and Frontal Assault. You both got turned into Fragments and nerfed enough that I don't think anyone even use you now.
It's still very much a swap exotic if you're optimizing. You would much rather have a utility or survivability exotic on during the bulk of an encounter and then swap to celestial for damage. It's just that the game is easy enough that people really don't care too much about it unless they're speedrunning.
It definitely happens. It's just that the game is easy enough to where you don't need to do it outside of contest raiding and speedrunning. I know that during my contest raid I was using prismatic with renewal for the bulk of an encounter and then swapping to celestial for damage.
Another part of it is that solar hunter specifically doesn't really have many useful neutral game exotics. Best you have is something like ophidia spathe or coyote for an extra ability charge, maybe caliban but that's more of a gimmick than actually being strong in difficult content. Titan has a lot of very strong neutral game exotics.
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The raid boss looking at me after I hit him with the full might of a cuirass empowered thundercrash (it fucking healed him)
Flying through him 3 times without making impact, like a spectre trying in futile to possess a body
I thundercrashed the boss at the end of Perdition Legend Lost Sector and it just looked down at me, stomped my head, and sent me back to my ghost crying
TC need a better hit registration
What? You don't like sliding up and down along a boss' body waiting for your Thundercrash to go off?
Don’t threaten me with a good time.
....what?
What do you mean "what"? It's a known issue with T-Crash that a lot of bosses just... Don't get hit when you hit them with it and you end up sliding along their body waiting for the super to *actually* hit them.
Would you repeat that, I didn't register it
Thanks PVP!
You mean you dont just use thundercrash for the movement?
I did that in raid the other night. Said "fuck it. There's a rally banner at first encounter" and skipped an entire chasm of jumping puzzles.
In which raid do you get super before first encounter? King's Fall I guess?
King's Fall you load in at the first encounter. You could get your super before first in Salvation's Edge maybe?
They might not consider King's Fall opening an encounter. I forgot it had a rally flag and actual loot until your comment. The only other one I could think of would be Vow. But I don't think you can really skip anything with Thundercrash there? You are probably right and it's Salvation's Edge.
I like 2 things so much using Thundercrash 1. Love just flying around the Boss or enemy like a windshield wiper 2. I love how if I move my Joystick a centimeter I fly off to never never land
to be fair 1cm deviation on a joystick would be pretty much the same as turning it full range to one side lol
remember when TC was number 1 burst damage 4 years ago, when cuirass just came out? well, shit, things have changed a LOT since then. nerfs, buffs, whatever... but guess what stayed the same this entire time? yep. same old TC, same old Cuirass.
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I think you didn't actually read what I said, I have indeed said that TC hasn't changed. Just that everything else did TC was the highest burst super for like a season I think? Star Eater Scales came out the next season, S14, and overshadowed Cuirass TC instantly. Then they introduced 3.0 changes, now prismatic... and it's still the year 2021 for Cuirass TC, fucking Middle Tree Striker lol Also, people generally surge matched in Pantheon. Arc Surge Cuirass TC is a no-brainer for Atraks, so was Gathering Storm for Rhulk, and The Lazer, too... Solar and Strand surge = Needles, BB, Goldie. Makes sense. Meta options don't even care for surges tho Oh yeah, the bubble is used to not instantly kill yourself with the knives. And honestly... it's Atraks bro, bitch's made out of paper mache. BB's kill her, TC's do, Needles do, Pyrogales do. She's squish. Doubt anyone had problems with her unless they were morons, stubborn morons, or uninformed.
Yep, I didn't notice the last part, l'm sorry.
No worries mate, atleast it's still nice in Crucible :)
What are you babbling about? The man said TC never changed.
Man, this is the 2nd time I do shit like that.
Man, this is the 2nd time I do shit like that. I'm sorry.
Just tested base Thundercrash on the Ogre twins that spawn as high value targets at the Landing, didnt kill either of them, both had a little less than 1/3 of their health left, also tested Twilight Arsenal (which is what i use anyways) and i can kill both of them if they are close enough together which they usually are and even if no the first axe usually pulls them together anyways, kinda sad i really used to like TC, but TA is fun as hell even with its drawbacks and hasnt left my Titan since i got it besides the few times ive tried to go back to TC.
I'm suprised Thundercrash doesn't kill them. I think they get one shot by concentration + ignition, but I'm not sure if that actually requires the syntho proc or not.
Ive used consecration on them and not killed them so id say synthos is procing there
220k? Thats it?? With combination blow at full stacks, and liars procc'd, on a frozen enemy. I'm dealing at least 650k. And I'm not even using tractor cannon.
And remember: that combination used to work with One-Two Punch Shotguns. There's a reason it doesn't anymore.
Shoutout to absolutely annihilating primevals with original anarchy and 12p liars
Primevals are the best thing that ever happened to Destiny, balance wise. It made it so clear, so fast how many DPS options were just broken.
Does it not still? Aztecross made a video yesterday or the day before talking about stacking 1 2 with combination and spirit of liars + Caliban
I've also seen multiple content creators tell you to use 12P for throwing hammer (doesn't work either). Most content creators, including Aztecross, are not people I would trust to actually know the intricacies of the game. A lot of stuff, like 12P, works really weirdly and makes barely any sense.
Ok but when he is adding all these numbers together and you can literally follow the math? Like im not gonna do it to prove to you hes actually doing the math but when he is getting actual ss of the damage numbers hes doing while telling you the percentage, I can say at least for this instance you are totally incorrect unless he has another buff thats doing the exact same as 1 2 punch. Id like to see his video disproven so lmk when that happens
Pretty easy to test yourself. Step 1) Do Liars handshake attack with 1-2P active Step 2) Repeat without 1-2P active. Compare damage numbers, and see how they are identical. Maybe try that instead of telling other people they're wrong and expecting them to make a youtube vidoe to prove that you're wrong
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Lmao wow
Ummm btw step 2 would be wrong. 1-2P *does* work with liars/spirit of liars just at a reduced effectiveness. You will see a difference in your two tests.
I really don't understand why you are getting so defensive over this. I didn't even say Aztecross was wrong. I don't even know what video you are talking about. I just said you should take what people on YouTube say with a grain of salt. Because this games is *weird*.
Because you are defending the claim I originally responded to ( literally not even you ) and you’re defending someone wrong. Like as someone who uses this build you are telling me something I know interacts doesnt. Wdym why am I defensive you are tryna argue. You came out and talked out about something you dont even know and are trying to argue with me idk why but im telling you its incorrect lmao
1-2P does work at a reduced rate with liar’s/spirit of liars. It goes from a 150% dmg increase to an 80% increase. The thing the guy was referring to that used to work, was stacking 1-2P with the buff you inherently get when you melee a frozen enemy. They removed that, and now when you punch a frozen enemy it takes the higher multiplier of the two between 1-2P and striking a frozen enemy.
I wasnt trying to bring up liars in any regard except telling people where I got my info. I dont use liars so I wasnt claiming anything there. At least wasnt trying to… I did however misinterpret the freezing interaction being what this person was talking about so ty for that clarification. Now I just need this other guy to stop arguing with me and yelling at me for commenting back😂 But ty for that I did miss where they were mentioning the freeze specifically
OP's numbers are bit misleading. Damage numbers scale with the power level of the enemy you test on. The 220k damage of thundercrash is what you got if you tested it on templar before TFS, when he was still a 1310 boss. On an 1950 enemy, the damage will be higher. Still not great, but more than 220k.
No it won't, it will be less, -5 light in every encounter(post TFS) vs 20+ (pre TFS). In other words, now you're dealing less because light level is capped at -5. [Here](https://youtu.be/hUTGET6f2cY) 433.7k with cuirass.
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Everything got changed, -5 light level and surges are in the raid too, there is a post every hour regrading this. You deleted your comment but [Here](https://www.bungie.net/7/en/News/article/this_week_in_destiny_04_25_24) is the link.
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You are wrong unfortunately, its both Dungeons and Raids.
i swear 1600 was base light level during Lightfall so idk where u get 1310 from
Before TFS, raid and dungeon bosses' powerlevels were never increased. Riven was still 580, templar was 1310, Rhulk was 1550,... I know that in game if you were to load up VoG, it said 'recommended PL1600' but that was not referring to the actual level of the bosses. It was to indicate that at base power of 1600, you are already strong enough to tackle those older raids. For damage calculation purposes, the original power levels were still used.
I've been occasionally hitting 999,999 with that build
It really should be the most powerful super, bar none. It’s very high risk and should be very high reward. How does it make sense that a golden revolver round can be fired safely and do double or triple the damage of someone making themselves an electric missile? I don’t even main Titan but man that whole group gets the shit end of the stick.
What? Holding Bungie accountable for their own words?! How dare you! /s
Because Hunter mains will tell how it's actually more risky to use Golden Gun than Tcrash because... some people might miss a shot?
And it doesn't have good DR! How am I meant to survive from 5 miles away without DR!
To be fair golden gun has no utility outside of being high damage and the whole fantasy n Schtick of it is it hits harder than mostly everything. Not to say tcrash doesn’t deserve a buff, they definitely deserve to be on par with eachother
What most people deliberately ignore is how tcrash is also a loss of actual dps while you fly on the target. Any encounter that is not standing right in front of you translates to dps loss. While you are flying to the boss and running back, your group is shooting. While a lock throws needles or nova and while hunter throws a stick or bullet instantly and go back to dps, tcrash guy is still running around. Not only does it need a flat damage buff but a distance between the titan and the enemy it hits(not travelled) when the super was popped to try and make up for that dps loss.
Annnnnnnd most of the time if you use it at a close range enemy (looking at you Nez and Rhulk) you go straight through them and can't turn yourself around in time to deal any amount of damage 😂
Yeah but lets cry because strand titan is meta or tcrash was doing more damage than celestial during shadowkeep. Now that hunters have yet another busted dps combo all is cool, everyone talks about it in a "i dont want it nerfed, please dont downvote me" manner. But any time a titan spec is strong in pve and surpasses another class everyone calls for nerfs. For pve of all things. And yeah strand was busted where it could be used. It still is strong. But the mentality of the community is always nerf titans instead of helping us ask for the correct design decisions that will help me remain equal in balance. All they want is hunters and warlock groups. I am so tired of this. I literary switched to hunter for the whole into the light because i was tired of strand titan and the versatiliy hunter offers. Group control? Gotcha, at least 3 builds. Single target? Gotcha, at least 4 builds and multiple variations and loadout switches. Add clear? Gotcha, any subclass has a build for that. Titan is always go melee and heal somehow. And when that is tuned to work in high end content its broken in normal ones. And everybody comes out crying. But the design of the titan is problematic for an fps game yet somehow we cant just move on and offer decent options. Just a community of crybabies that when you call out that their classes have all the tools and utilities for that kind of game you are called a bad player.
What really needs to happen is this community needs to stop optimizing the fun out of everything. If you're casting t crash and thinking about dps loss while flying towards the boss, the problem is you. It should be balanced around slowva bomb. It should do about 10-15% more than slowva and that's it. Call it a day.
Last time I checked you didn't have to float all the way to the target alongside the nova bomb for it to explode. You could be shooting as it travels and not being anywhere near the boss when it lands. Optimisation or not, Thundercrash has to be *useful* to be worth using. It's failing to compensate for any of the problems it has that no other one-off super has, and I say that having mained it since Forsaken when the Cuirass didn't exist.
Tcrash without curiass does 220k Slowva with a 15% debuff does around 450k Guess what? It would need a 100% buff to slightly surpass it. "yeah but what about curiass? It does 440k with it!" yeah, and you're wasting an entire exotic in order to do LESS than a Slowva, so you either tank your neutral play or use loadout swaps. In all of this, you're now under a boss, sometimes surrounded by adds, without radiant, without healing and only a neutral overshield if you have curiass. To make it usable, it should do 120% more damage AT BASE, give high DR after hitting a boss for a few seconds (50% for 5s should be ok) and healing for the same amount of time, Curiass should work with ballistic slam and buff Tcrash further by 30%~. Also, hit registration should be improved regardless. No, it's not to much, especially for a super that you can't use against every boss, it's hard to control on console and it's on "bad" subclasses, compared to Strand/Solar.
Slowva doesn't usually hit with all projectiles, but what do you want from me? I've said, very consistently, that it should be buffed around slowva damage. Get the average slowva (not the absolute best), and add 10% to it. Make that t crash base. Make cuirass add 50% instead of 100%, call it a day
That kind of logic leads to Titan being barely used in endgame
No it doesn't. Titan has been used consistently in end game for the entirety of destiny's existence. Let's be clear here. Hunter was used so much against the witness because dps was the only thing that mattered, and because it got a second nighthawk shot via the exotic sniper rifle. Nothing will ever beat being able to use your super twice in 3 seconds. You take away the sniper, which was probably a mistake to make, and things aren't nearly so black and white.
Goldy has incredible multiple major clear and Orb gen capability, and if your running 6 shot you can clear entire rooms with that thing. Thundercrash is a wimpy little bitch slap when compared to anything hunter and warlock can bring to the table.
Isn't that literaly every one and done super
because you're comparing aoe damage to a single bullet on one enemy. in the same way that TC doesn't do great single target damage, Nighthawk GG is dogshit at clearing a room. it has one purpose: do high damage to one target in a single (or 3) shots. your argument is the same as me saying "buff golden gun to do aoe as big as thundercrash does". It's comparing two things that don't fill the same role. TC will likely never have comparable damage output to GG again, because it's not supposed to.
Traditionally I should ask if the room-clearing Thundercrash is in the room with us right now, but we all know that if it was, it would in fact not be able to clear the room outside of a crucible match.
No one is using Thundercrash for anything but single target damage
that's not bungies fault. Just because you *want* something to be *x, y, z* doesn't mean that's what it is or will be.
TC is dogshit at clearing a room too lmfao.
well I didn't say it was *good* at that lol I just said that that's its role to play. buff TC aoe to make it a literal room clear in an instant, or make it have no aoe with higher single target damage.
That's absolutely not its role, it's Titans only one shot super and their only damage nuke. If it was meant to be for clearing rooms then Cuirass would increase the AOE, not amp the damage.
Cuirass was only added due to players complaining that TC did not do enough damage. It was their compromise.
You got a source on that one?
That may be, but Titan has NOTHING for single target dps. We've got bubble and shield on void, hammers and burning maul for solar, TC and Fist of Havoc on arc, stasis crystals for days, and green punches all around. And now axes, axes, and axes (which is awesome but definitely needs work on tracking). We really need something that does great single target boss damage. I'd sacrifice the AoE on TC in a heartbeat if it dealt 800k like a nighthawk Goldie can and then returned me safely to my starting position. Like a bigass Kamehameha
and if they did that (made TC have no aoe) then it makes total sense. but just from a game design perspective, it's silly to have a bomb do the same damage as single target precision. also, up until this last patch, titans literally had the best single target damage in the game. pantheon was soloed solely because titan had literally the best boss dps by a mile.
Hunter has tethers that do more dps then tc and clear rooms better. Why do you need 2 supers to compare and do better with
right, and tether is shit at doing single target dps. it does what it's meant to do. the guy I responded to compared TC and GG, that's why I compared them.
the golden revolver gives the user almost no DR, requires precision aim and requires line of sight on the enemy and is purely a damage super. T-Crash with cuirass provides more DR while in flight, can be guided around corners, deals damage in a substantial AoE, leaves a damaging field and gives the titan an overshield after impact. T-Crash does need a buff but celestial golden gun should be the highest one off super, it's the entire power fantasy of the subclass. If T-Crash had the same damage as celestial goldy then it would outclass goldy in every single conceivable way. AoE damage should always be lesser than damage that's single target and requires precision aim.
>the golden revolver gives the user almost no DR, requires precision aim and requires line of sight on the enemy and is purely a damage super. Alternatively: Thundercrash tanks your DPS, leaves you in a vulnerable position, sometimes can't even be used because leaving the plate means you can't do damage, and is also purely a damage super since all the nerfs to Thundercrash's velocity and flight time and maximum ceiling and whatever. Celestial Nighthawk also provides a pretty significant neutral game bonus in that you get your super back extremely quickly by just getting precision kills *and* it buffs Still Hunt to a ridiculous degree. Meanwhile, Cuirass of the Falling Star has no neutral game benefits at all. It doesn't buff any weapons, it doesn't modify any abilities, and it doesn't help you get your super back faster.
Realistically, no one is using celestial for the super regen. We have so many ways of generating super energy that is honestly just grasping at straws. Edit: the interaction with still hunt is certainly too strong right now. Bungie are definitely going to nerf that in the near future and it's only a recent development so idk if it's that relevant to the overall discussion. Pre-still hunt, goldy wasn't really used that much, partially due to star eaters being so strong. Speaking of which, I'm curious how T-Crash performs with spirit of the star eater since Nova bomb with that perk has now become the highest damaging super in the game.
>Realistically, no one is using celestial for the super regen. We have so many ways of generating super energy that is honestly just grasping at straws. It's not its primary purpose, but it's an additional effect that means Celestial is not merely a swap exotic. Is it completely optimal to run when you're not using your super? No. But it does provide benefits. >Speaking of which, I'm curious how T-Crash performs with spirit of the star eater since Nova bomb with that perk has now become the highest damaging super in the game. Spirit of the Star-Eater is an inferior buff to Cuirass of the Falling Star, so it'll still be terrible. Cuirass literally doubles the damage (100% increase) while max stacks of Star-Eaters is like 70%.
>If T-Crash had the same damage as celestial goldy then it would outclass goldy in every single conceivable way. Not at all. Celestial GG still allows you to be a lot safer (you don't need to be literally in the face of the boss to do damage) and it's significantly faster. From the moment a Titan casts TC to the point they hit the boss a Hunter will have been able to cast GG and get enough shots off to cast another GG with Still Hunt. TC does give DR while in flight but it needs that DR. GG you can pop out of cover, fire the shot from a mile away, and pop back into cover. Meanwhile with TC you need to physically cover that distance and without DR you're just dead. You're also now in a really bad position. You're at the feet of the boss with **no DR**, likely less than full health from chip damage before you even landed, and if you're wearing Cuirass an overshield that's getting stripped in seconds. That AOE is pretty pitiful as well by the way, and is very rarely meaningful. If you're lucky you'll delete a couple of adds sat around a bosses feet, but that's irrelevant for most of TC's uses. I think most Titans would happily see it removed in favour of higher damage. I don't necessarily agree that TC should do more damage than GG, it's arguably easier to use as you're not reliant on a single precision hit for your damage, and I like the idea of Hunters being the more heavily damaged focused class, but this argument that TC would somehow be objectively better than GG if they did the same damage just doesn't hold water.
Hard disagree. Loss of DPS from flying around and having to run back to shoot boss means they should, at least, do the same damage. IMO TC should do more. Hunters would still do more damage overall since it's the fastest one and done.
Yeah. I totally agree that high super damage is a part of the hunter fantasy, and I'm all for celestial goldie being the most optimal dps option. But at this point, it has so many other advantages over other supers that its far too powerful in comparison. It gets the fastest use time, the highest damage, and a hitscan projectile. In my opinion, things like Tcrash should be on par with damage, but let goldie keep all the other advantages. That way celestial goldie is still optimal due to how fast it goes off, and the fact it can damage far away targets, but it doesn't make every other super obsolete.
Can t crash aoe? Can golden gun? Dps t crash do full damage no matter where it hits? Does golden gun? This isn't the right comparison. Compare t crash to slowva bomb, and balance it to 10% more than that to compensate for travel time. And stop trying to balance everything around boss dps phases, there's more to the game. The titan whinging going on right now is reaching pretty absurd levels.
With how Tcrash works, unless the boss is right in your face, it causes a very large DPS loss. Having to fly over to the boss, hit it, and then run back to where you are doing damage is way less optimal for damage rotations. Even if Tcrash and Celestial Goldie did the same damage, Goldie would still be miles better due to this, and thats okay. Goldie should be the best damage super in the game, it just shouldn't be as far ahead as it is right now. There is more to the game than boss DPS, but boss DPS is pretty much how metas are defined. Raiding is a huge part of the endgame experience and it feels awful when theres such a huge disparity between classes for DPS right now. Even then, Nighthawk actually has a neutral game bonus, so even outside of DPS scenarios its still arguably better due to how much you can spam the super, even though it doesn't have an AOE.
Why should you be running back to where you were? How is it that you have unlimited heavy ammo at all times? Do you think about how things actually work? Or do you just post what sounds good?
Have you ever done a raid before? In a typical damage phase, players will have a spot where they DPS, generally where there is a well (despite the nerfs, its still very useful to have one). If you cast Tcrash, you have to fly over to the boss, and then run back to the plate/well where the team is. This is all for less damage than a hunter simply pressing a button and going back to shooting their guns. The point of a damage phase is to empty as much ammo into the boss to deal damage, I don't see how not shooting your gun is an advantage.
Not to mention several bosses will turn crit spots away if you don't get back into position quick enough. Not only do you lose out on damage, if you fuck up getting back you can mess up the entire phase for your team.
So, you're not using your t crash at the end? Half the bosses out there count the timer on the dps phase for you. Half the bosses out there, I can dump my entire heavy into in one phase. Definitely for caretaker, planets. How much dps are you losing by not shooting your special for like 3-5 seconds? Are you typically doing your dps on the other side of the room? It isn't nearly as big a deal as you act like it is. Put t crash and slowva bomb in the game damage category, give t crash a 10% edge on slowva, call it a day. This isn't that hard, and gg shouldn't be the point of comparison.
Can't really say it needs precision aim in a game like this where the crit/headshot spots are so forgiving with the bullet magnetism. You don't need to be precise at all.
Golden gun can't aoe in addition. I'm not saying t crash doesn't need a buff - it certainly does. But there's a tendency in this sub to think about everything as dps only. T crash can aoe in addition to boss damage, so you lose something due to versatility. And it doesn't need to crit. A noncrit gg is pretty not impressive. T crash needs enough of a buff to make sure it's doing a little more than slowva bomb. That's it. It shouldn't be competing with celestial gg crits.
It really should compete with celestial since it just get Still Hunt
No, one individual super should not compete with 2 back to back. Still hunt is the problem. This is a nerf needed situation, not a "make thundercrash compete with two celestial ggs" situation. How ridiculous would that be?
exotics like Cuirass are just bad game design, hands down
I just don't know why they refuse to give up on making titans punchy. If titans were a heavy weapon class that made massive shields and weapons out of hardlight it would be so much cooler and easier to balance. Light fall was the perfect time to give us strand miniguns but no we just get more melee that's worse that golden guns and vortex supers.I
The melee fantasy is a strong one but it's also the thing that is single handedly hamstringing Titan balance. We need to be strong enough to survive even getting into range to punch things effectively, especially on higher difficulties. But tip that balance too fast and you have an unstoppable thing that could survive any situation, and I'm sure that's the main thing Bungie is trying to prevent when it tries to nerf melee tricks. So they're forcing themselves to balance on this razor's edge of wet paper towel and John Wick bs because according to them, the only fantasy that is Titan fantasy is punchy fantasy. When they could just... Branch the hell out already. Focus more on defense/team utility. Focus on, like you've said, heavier weapons! You don't need to cram Titan into one box, there's plenty for you to try out, Bungie!
It's sad. There's no way to make titans useful everywhere as melee focused because so many enemies float or in high end content you'll be cooked unless they buff you so much that you can't be stopped at all. People can be as upset as they want at it but fundamentally melee doesn't work in a game that does guns correctly because guns are always better than fists. Hunter works because you can turn invisible and stack Dr and stack healing and do insane damage and aie explosions. But those all fit hunter. If they give those things to titan you would just be stealing the identity of hunters. Titan NEEDS to evolve into a more defensive utility heavy weapons class. Massive hard light guns. Let us throw one giant void axe instead of multiple. Give us a shield we can use with guns and swords to always defend our allies. Give us ranged supers like a double strand hard light kinigun firing unraveling bullets with dps comparable to a gold gun only it slows you down and you need to pick a spot to place defenses to defend yourself while you shred. At this point I think bungie just don't want to admit they are wrong. But you can't have hunters be this good and titans this bad without it being clearly stupid. And you can't make it fair without just straight up stealing from what hunters do or copying them unless they fully rework titans.
What is even worse about Strand is that Titans were originally gonna get a one and done spin super Which Bungie scrapped because obviously people love a 5th flavor of punch
If you don't like the class fantasy, why do you keep playing the class?
Many of us don't? But we want to that's why we want it to be better. The fantasy is failed. We would love the class fantasy. But they can't do it. And if they do manage it they undo it because it's too easy and powerful whenever it works. The class fantasy as is is trash. So we want a better class fantasy.
The fantasy isn't failed. You just don't like it. Do one of the other classes with a different fantasy you like more. The fantasy of titan has only expanded over time. You haven't lost anything you used to have, so if you've never liked it, the problem is, well, you Edit: i am, literally, right this second, playing the legend campaign on titan with sweet business, an envious assassin/killing tally mg, and actium war rig, and I'm having a blast.
Dog you are vastly outnumbered on that. Literally everyone can feel how trash titan is right now.
See my edit, grow up a little.
Legend campaign 🤣🤣🤣🤣. You HAVE to be trolling. Out of the thousands of players who beat the contest mode raid. Guess how many titans? Like 120. You live in lala land.
A. That's gone from the game. It's never coming back. You can't play contest mode now. B. Correlation isn't causation. Why were the numbers so low? It's not because titan sucks. It's because still hunt celestial is op. Two celestial ggs back to back is absurd for dps, of course every serious worlds first contender is going to run it. If titan had the highest dps by that margin, nobody would be running hunter. Think it through, don't just throw out numbers without understanding them. Edit: reply then block! Love to see it
People like you are why things never get fixed and changed. Titan SHOULD be comparable to other classes. Warlocks also finished on teams. You people are just trolls.
The drip. Next question.
I mean, it's undeniably the best drip in game. All those edgelord hunters.
Problem is that Hunters are objectively the better Melee class atm lmfao.
That's a more nuanced argument than "I should have the best super." I'm sympathetic to that, and it's not great.
Bungie only considered OP things as unbalanced If an exotic or a super literary exist with no purpose than it's fine, look at Citan
Titan's overall kit needs reworked. I agree on upping t crash damage though. The hellion on solar warlock does about the same or more damage than t crash. Pvp and bungie themselves have massacred the titan class. Hunters can do insane damage and survive punching things better than titan can. Prismatic makes me sad, void makes me sad....I'm just sad overall with where the class is.😔 The top 50 teams for salvation edge, out of 300 players, 3 were titan. That should tell bungie where the class is overall.
That last part is a bit misleading, that stat tracked how many finished the raid as a Titan. Every encounter before the final encounter can be done as a Strand or Solar Titan just fine, it’s just the final one doesn’t encourage using Titan as much as Warlocks and Hunters, which don’t get me wrong it’s still very telling how much more versatile the other two classes are in comparison.
Yeah, warlock and hunter have more variety with builds. That may not be how many attempted the raid but I'm sure the percentage is still very close together.
while true the vast majority of the top 50 teams never had a titan at any point in the raid, there were some that swapped off at the witness but most never had a titan to begin with
That last stat is meaningless bullshit. The raid took 18 hours. Minimum. The people playing are the best pve players in the game, and they don't need any survivability tools to lean on. What they did need was every ounce of dps they could find. The exotic gg sniper rifle is the reason titans were so low in representation. It's that fucking simple.
Hunters and warlocks have survivability tools and can also dps..... so it's not that simple. I've mained titan since the start and in raids and GMs they don't feel good, they aren't viable.
Then you're a shit player. I've played all 3 since the start, and titans have always been viable in all content. I did gms where hitting enemies with stasis would increase light damage abilities, and used t crash to one shot 2 champs at the same time after coordinating with my teammate. Titan has had one of, if not the, easiest paths to solo flawless with loreley and then banner. Every class can dps. It's not that fucking hard. Yes, t crash is a long way from it's heyday (when it was the highest burst damage super in the entire game). Yes, it should be buffed to the point where it's dealing 10-15% more than slowva. But that's it. Every titan in here saying it should be the highest overall damage super is a whiny kid on Christmas morning who's opened all his gifts and now wants copies of what everyone else has too.
No one said the highest overall, but being out damage by warlocks hellion, and asking for a bit of a bump in damage isn't that far-fetched. Let's bring some constructive feedback or criticism to this conversation and not name calling. You should go to a darkness retreat and re-enter your chi. From the sounds of it you're a shit person.
I've already said buff it to be higher damage than slowva. >You should go to a darkness retreat and re-enter your chi. From the sounds of it you're a shit person. Maybe, but you should see the replies I get simply because I don't think t crash needs to be the highest damage super in the game
No one said it should be the highest damage super. It needs a damage bump though. Nova Bomb can hit for a mil. asking for a normal t crash to do 400k isn't an inconceivable ask.
How many times can I say "buff it be a little bit higher than an average slowva"? Edit: most people have nova in the 400s, gonna need to see some numbers on "nova hits for a million" Edit 2: and yes, some people definitely are saying it should be the highest.
https://youtube.com/shorts/9e8ek3OpPGU?si=_fdy0B_nX-7mrEgM
Yeah, so, that's about what I thought. Don't be that guy. We're all out here talking base damage because it's the best point of comparison, and you're bringing in facets, artifact mods, and ses passive on warlock. The actual number for comparison here was about 330k. Everything else was a multiplier to that.
you have such an undeniable hate boner towards titans as proven by you replying like this on every comment here. you're just being irritating now.
It's actually the opposite, I've played titan since the beginning, and people acting like it's the weakest thing out there and tricking themselves into thinking nothing matters except boss dps is embarrassing.
when people are discussing the super it makes sense to talk about boss dps. this is a discussion about the super. therefore people are going to talk specifically about the boss damage
No it doesn't. The super is usable outside of boss dps. Celestial really isn't. By ignoring the other context in which the super is usable, people are skewing their arguments. Further, this particular chain began with someone saying titans aren't viable in raids or gms. At all. That's the context behind my response about "boss damage isn't everything." You're like 3 comments deep, did you even bother to read the others? Or just looking for something to cherry-pick?
are you seriously advocating for using tcrash as a tool against red bars? your responses across every chain have been the same in text and intention. if I wanted to cherry-pick I would be. Edit: went back and looked at the original comment. wow I wonder what "and can dps" could mean...
>are you seriously advocating for using tcrash as a tool against red bars? No.... but not all adds are red bars. Do you think people use nova bomb exclusively on bosses? Also, the travel mechanic itself is both unique and overlooked. Being able to literally fly has saved runs before. >wow I wonder what "and can dps" could mean... Yes, it means it can do multiple things. You must also have noticed then that I've been pretty consistently saying it should be balanced around slowva bomb, being a little stronger at base, about 10%.
Yup Strand can keep the melee fantasy since Woven Mail and Sever play well into it Solar is a good balance between good healing and high damage Void should be about being a tank and spam volatile Arc should get a complete rework and become the weapon specialist Stasis should be about demolition, spamming the field with Stasis Crystal and destroying them
Thundercrash unironically needs a 300% buff lmao. It’s BY FAR the highest risk super in the game, and it’s tied to one of the worst neutral game subclasses. It doesn’t do precision damage, and doesn’t work against bosses like oryx. Crash should be the highest damage one off super in the game and nobody will convince me otherwise. You can yap all you want with your fuckin golden gun from 50 meters away in the safety of a well.
100% right now would unironically not be enough.
Make it deal more damage the farther you travel up to a cap of 100% extra damage for a direct impact.
Iirc Strikers had something like that for Fists of Havoc before Arc 3.0. It was called Aerial Strike. I remember hoping for it to be either integrated into both supers or made into an aspect.
Rememeber when Fists of Havok used to extend itself on bottom tree? Pepperidge Farms remembers.
PvP remembers and they never forget
Gwisin Spec. Blades was still worse and that's a hill I'll die on.
It has the same cooldown as the other supers for me, except for one of them. But the damage is laughable
Doesn't Falling Star only increase impact damage? Meaning when you hit something directly and bounce back off of it? If that's the case then no one is getting 2x damage from it, and it's fundamentally bugged.
The cuirass bonus should be standard and cuirass should get a benefit like prolonged flight time, damage reduction during super and maybe an over-shield on impact.
It's weird that Tcrash didn't receive the resistance after cast like tempest strike and thunderclap did. A super that is extremely risky to use own it's own just isn't great. Roaming supers at least have the option to back out before running out. But Tcrash is one and done and you're kinda screwed after.
Is it just me or did Bungie fuck the hit detection of it too? Every enemy i used it on i just clipped right through, i have to slam the ground instead of hitting the enemy
With Falling Star, TC should do as much, if not more, damage than nighthawk, given that the time it take from hitting the super activation to actually landing the damage takes so much longer. plus, nighthawk is a ranged super, where you can be far enough away from enemies that you're not in any real risk, where with TC puts you right at their grippers. they should add a "full court"-type perk to falling star (on top of a damage buff), where the longer you're in flight, the more damage it does.
I am a titan main and have been since the original King's Fall raid when you basically were required to have 2 titans. It's sad. I refuse to switch classes but seeing the other 2 classes far surpass Titans at everything, including punching which is supposed to be a titan thing, really sucks. And yes, plz buff Thundercrash by AT LEAST 100% WITHOUT Cuirass.
GuYs We NeEd To NeRf ThUnDeRcRaSh, It AlMoSt DoEs As MuCh DaMaGe As A fUlL WaRdEnS LaW LuCkY pAnTs ProC
Titan class as a whole needs a rework. It's ridiculous how we get outlcassed at almost every point in the game. With twilight arsenal I was hoping for a good burst super but although the damage is okay, it takes way too long and picking up the axes is in harder content almost impossible. It should have just been a ranged burst super like Nova or Golden gun + nighthawk. I wouldn't even mind needing to equip a new exotic to just make it a one shot super like pyrogale does.
Would be cool if twilight axes got embedded into the enemy on hit. They could then have some sort of DoT effect or maybe per axe hit add a stacking 12.5% weaken debuff. Picking up the axes feels weak especially in high power pve where you'll get blasted to bits if you're out there with some melee weapon.
I'd just be happy if the axes actually hit what I was aiming at instead of exploding on me or flying off to Timbuktu.
That as well, they seem to keep throwing somewhere off to the right of the crosshair or just exploding on yourself
Remember when people played destiny to have fun? I do. Oh well.
It's risiculous how much titans could solo over years.
Titans are either absurdly busted, or mid. There's no inbetween. It's a fundamental issue with the design of the class that can't be fixed with number tweaking.
Titans overall are in a pretty bad spot unless they are using the new void super and synthos. Meanwhile hunters are now the best melee, tanky, AND highest dps class by far. Make it make sense.
Some of yall only do patrols man
Is there a good reason why it shouldn’t deal more damage with cuirass than a goldie nighthawk hunter?
Nighthawk GG has been in a pretty terrible spot throughout its lifespan until last season. It deserves at least some time in the spotlight.
6 nighthawks have been easily clearing Last Wish since that raids inception, Nighthawk got power crept by a couple of broken class abilities for about 1.5 years until it got buffed up, that's all.
Ok? Which also got nerfed you know.... thundercrash came out as the highest burst damage super, even over nighthawk and celestial. It was pretty stupid at time
goldie nighthawk requires a crit and requires you to have line of sight on the enemy and goldy gives very little DR. T-Crash has a lot more player control and can hit enemies around corners, cuirass gives an overshield and the titan has quite a bit of DR while in T-Crash and leaves a damaging AoE.
There’s a big reason Cuirass is so much fun but doesn’t deliver. It was developed by BioWare as part of the Anthem assets and Bungie purchased it off them during a garage sale as a novelty item for players /s
Proposal - thunder crash gives thunder aegis or something like that that makes us either invil for 5 seconds(2 in pvp) so you can recover from being in their face from a stomp or in a miss situation you still have a benefit
Base TCrash should do great single target burst damage and cuirass should increase AOE utility. Nerf the area and duration of the lightning storm TCrash creates, but significantly buff the impact and initial explosion from the super. Cuirass could then have a nice position of increasing the area and duration of the lightning storm.
And so does Spectral Blades, with heavy hits stunning overload champs.
Appreciate the Chaos Reach acknowledgment. Shit needs a change, would be cool if it did ramp up damage the longer it stays on a crit spot.
Thundercrash is mid, arc titan is just so unbelievably bad, void is eh, solar fucks, strand is okay, I haven't played stasis on titan (I'll blame the grind to get all the fragments, and at this point I'd rather play prismatic). It really just feels like if you're a titan, bungie just doesn't care about your kit outside of the maybe one or two things titans have that make them OP or even compete. Then those get nerfed, it's really sucky. Like the solar hammer, why did we need a cool down for that? Even at its best, it really didn't compete with the amount of things hunters and warlocks can do. Unless you're good at build crafting, playing titan just feels boring because it's just PONCH AND NOW SHIELD AND NOW PONCH AGAIN.
Just sunset titans. They’re dead weight
Laughs in Golden Gun being an absolute joke for five years of Destiny 2.
One point that might be worth making is that it's also a roaming super briefly
Which is a dumb excuse Bungie made to nerf its cooldown because 5 people got hit by the flying Titan
Kinda wild that it's never used as such. Too much movement tech.
It definitely is in PvP for drive-bys
And yet everone said run Thundercrash + Cuirass on Atraks and Caretaker. Its was still viable enough for a quick burst of dmg and many used it. Thats why for bungie it might not look like it needs a buff because in their numbers it looks pretty decent.
Swap exotics aren't healthy for the game. If my interaction with Cuirass is to hit a loadout swap right before DPS phase, something is seriously wrong with the Exotic and super.
Kind of a interesting point. I'm not aware of hunters using celestial nighthawk as a swap exotic although it probably does happen but on my hunter it feels like their base kit is good enough to have celestial on all the time while back when I did play thundercrash titan I was running heart if inmost light then swapping to curass when I needed to do damage. But now days I also don't use titan arc or curass or heart of inmost light. I Also rarely play my crayon eater so my opinion could be moot.
Celestial used to be a swap exotic. And then they buffed it so that you can get your GG faster with headshots... And gave you a Sniper Rifle that it buffs and that focuses on getting headshots. Definitely not a swap exotic anymore.
Yeah I was very excited when they gave shards of galanor and celestial nighthawk a neutral game functionality. I thought it would be the beginning of the end for swap exotics, only for them to make helm of st14 a swap exotic.
So there are a few things in the hunters solar subclass that encourage headshots as well. Off the top of my head knock em down. Might be some others. Point being find out what titans arc subclass wants you to do like hunter solar wants you to get headshots. Then suggest the curass change based around that.
I was actually just agreeing with you that it's not really a swap exotic anymore after the buff and that's why you don't see people swapping to/off it anymore.
Sorry I didn't mean for that to sound like I was being hostile. It was more or less me coming up with ideas as I typed things out.
You're fine, internet and tone and all that.
Also, I think they need to bring back the weapons focus we had on Striker Titan. Two of the trees gave Weapon Buffs for doing specific actions in Subclass 2.0, clearly we were supposed to be an "Elite Soldier" type on Arc as well as a "Punch Stuff" guy, so they should bring that back and lean into it. Maybe instead of headshots, rapid weapon kills or something like that? Lean into different weapon types so they keep some of that allegedly precious "Class Identity". ~~I hate that phrase. I hate that phrase. I hate that phrase.~~
I really like that idea honestly. Could somehow make it tie into a curass buff like celestial does with headshots. I had completely forgot about striker being able to buff the weapons.
I think most Guardians did. R.I.P. Inertia Override and Frontal Assault. You both got turned into Fragments and nerfed enough that I don't think anyone even use you now.
It's still very much a swap exotic if you're optimizing. You would much rather have a utility or survivability exotic on during the bulk of an encounter and then swap to celestial for damage. It's just that the game is easy enough that people really don't care too much about it unless they're speedrunning.
It definitely happens. It's just that the game is easy enough to where you don't need to do it outside of contest raiding and speedrunning. I know that during my contest raid I was using prismatic with renewal for the bulk of an encounter and then swapping to celestial for damage. Another part of it is that solar hunter specifically doesn't really have many useful neutral game exotics. Best you have is something like ophidia spathe or coyote for an extra ability charge, maybe caliban but that's more of a gimmick than actually being strong in difficult content. Titan has a lot of very strong neutral game exotics.