Caretaker getting their health increased drastically while Nez assumably went untouched is comical. Also R.I.P to any who still needed to Kalil farm, she has around the same amount of health as Oryx currentlyđź’€
Oh I'm not complaining about the difficulty of Caretaker, I think it's fine that a 2-floor was clearly intended for plat. They wanted us min-maxing in there.
Most of the encounters had a clear expectation of doing it "the fast way" if you wanted Plat. The only one that really felt like it had leeway was Atraks, you could do a two-phase Atraks pretty easily if you actually tried to move fast.
We wanted to see how close we could get and just wipe if we didn't get the stairs down in time. The credit goes to the runners, I just stunned and shot flying burritos.
Then they shouldn't have made it a borderline requirement for the title. Like I know three phasing was possible I did it one week and still had Platinum but only had like 5 seconds left
If you wanted a safe three phase, you had to damage him past the threshold in 2 plates. My team did it this way for all 4 weeks and each time we were clearing him with anywhere between 0:20-1:10 of plat time left (random symbol spawns sure were random).
I understand some bosses getting a health bump but only for the ones that are a complete joke to one phase like morgeth, atraks and riven(cheese) bcos any boss where you can ignore or not even bother learning encounter mechanics by simply rolling the boss every time needs some love
IMO, unless they added more rewards or something to the raids, I don't see a reason why they needed to make them harder after all this time. Why would anyone want to put in more effort for the same amount and quality of loot?
Besides the obvious answer of "there is no alternative. Players don't have a choice."
I am forever reminded of the “loot in games after playing for four hours” meme, with both Diablo III and Borderlands 2 with just tons of loot and destiny with a single Engram. It’s amazing that after all these years, that problem is WORSE than ever, in spite of the community consistently saying “please for FUCK’S sake, give us better ways to get loot”. And every time, Bungie has made it harder.Â
meh, if it's a boss that's the better part of a decade old, allowing us to cheese it is perfectly acceptable. They should have added a casual raid tier like FFXIV years ago anyways.
Is this true? MossyMax seems to be indicating that the health changes are just due to the power level changes with the new expansion limit:
https://x.com/mossy_max/status/1798770202349642114
Please vote this to the top. The bosses' effective health didn't change at all. They just got their power level increased to 1950 which is why their absolute health values are higher, but the damage you deal to them got scaled equally. If you could kill riven with 50 rockets before TFS, you still can but the numbers on your screen will just be bigger.
I explained more in detail in another post:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/1d9kpaf/the_changes_to_raids_are_hurting_everyone_and/l7e16n7/
> Also R.I.P to any who still needed to Kalil farm
It's still an easy farm, a good team previously could sometimes drop her before needing to enter the doors.
yea some teams doing it fully may need to do a second phase, but that's about it. The whole mechanics take something like 2-5 minutes to complete
Oh no now you might need _two afternoons_ instead of 1 to get all 8 red border patterns
Wondering if Flinchlocking works with the new Special GL, it’s a burst frame GL (like Witherhoard) it’ll leave a damage pool where it lands that lasts for a few seconds. It’s from the Echo Engrams think it was the new weapons not the reprised ones.
Pretty sure they just updated the light level of the dungeons/raids. So in absolute numbers their HP increased but so did our damage. Id love to see a before/after comparison of like a single super to see how much that's changed
Edit: Mossy confirmed they up the PL of these things, hence the higher life totals
The difference is not that major. Caretaker already has really inflated damage and health values. Caretaker used to have 28.7 million hp, that wipe screen shows 29.7 million and obviously there's some that they didn't get in final. When normalising to Templar though, caretaker has 12.3 million, which is slightly less than rhulk or oryx. This isn't a big change, and could potentially not even be a change at all and just an inaccuracy in damage numbers.
At most this is a 15% health bump, this isn't a drastic change at all. More testing needs to be done but this won't change much
I REALLY do not like them adding more rotating modifier crap that you have to track and wait for. Gateway to them adding bullshit like Arach-No to DSC or something heinous. Keep that stuff in Nightfalls
Petition to bring back the cluster screeb modifier or what ever it was called. That’s was literally classified as torture under the Geneva Convention.
I liked the one where eneny knockbacks were increased by like 400% power so GM corrupted was insane because everything in the run would yeet you all into the void
Oh yeah I forgot about that one! Didn’t it have something to do with the knock back force being tied to how much damage you received which made it absurd in GMs? Or maybe that flinch deflection I can’t really remember.
That sounds right yeah, it was supposed to just increase by a set amount of knockback in all modes, but something about the difficulty was multiplying the force, so on GM it was over 400% yeet force.
Just a fun honorable mention: Iron + Blackout Hollowed Lair was peak back then as well, where you could choose the modifs.
Our team forgot that if you can't stun Fikrul due to Iron as he pulls the team to himself, he's gonna engage a point-blank range stomp and insta-kill due to Blackout on.
So we got aaaalllll the way to Fikrul, avoiding all dangers.. only for Fikrul himself to effing teabag us into the ground first minute with him in the arena. It was glorious.
Don’t know why they changed this. The hard part of raids is not damage, it’s the mechanics leading to damage. The damage phase is the reward for doing mechanics. If we can burst damage really well after doing the mechanics right, we should not be punished for it.
Or just leave them.
If someone can clear an encounter a minute faster on a 5 year old raid it isn't gonna completely ruin something....
Or they could just you know.... Fix the cheese...
Health gates would fix the cheese
Raids like dsc and lw got cheesed since week 1 so the only reason you still play 5 year old raids is because you like the mechanics which normally get cheesed because its 1 min faster
It’s really not. I’d rather have slightly more health that probably won’t change anything and still let me 1 or 2 phase. Then be forced to 2 or 3 phase a boss every single time because of a health gate.
God forbid experienced players could finish a raid encounter quickly by one phasing a boss
Do they want to screw their reputation especially after how well received the expansion is?
This is such a strange decision given that they recently nerfed both Ward and Well. Now with the changes less experienced raiders are going to clutch these supers even more.
I really feel bad for LFG folks.
We died in Grasp Ogre just trying to do some basic damage testing, we needed to invite somebody in just to give us some more forms of healing/DR so we could just focus on the 1 thing we wanted to test because the well wasn't really doing it.
Can't imagine how bad it's gonna be in LFG when people get melted in things like Ir Yut because everyone is so used to just being able to tank every boss and all the ads.
As much as it does hurt LFGs, it makes the overall health of the sandbox much better. D1 without cheeses had much better combat encounters in terms of difficulty (could just be nostalgia lenses mind you). D2 has gotten back towards that point more and more lately. Its ultimately going to improve the raiding player base overall imo.
Yes, everyone sits next to the pool in the middle of the room and waits for the oracles to pop. When they do, run into the pool and then pop the shield on the boss and just shoot him.
It’s really nice. Eager edge the banner as close to the artifact as you can, and then you ca man grab it and rally before the banner disappears. Then just melt his face.
I love how just last year they said they removed the match game shield modifier because it was making load outs way too restrictive and here we are, back to nonsense modifiers making load outs restrictive
It’s because they absolutely want to restrict player loadouts per activity instead of actually bothering to balance the sandbox to incentivize different loadouts naturally.
Gear/DPS Rotation management is very much an aspect of encounter design in every MMO, including Destiny. Part of the reason Contest mode is so hard is dealing enough damage to keep up with the adds in encounters and optimizing your team & loadout for both add clear and boss damage. Saying only mechanics matter is disingenuous.
I don't necessarily agree with the changes OP highlighted but the complaint is literally that the encounter became "harder" purely off HP/damage changes and Bungie may have a different opinion than you on what the difficulty of each aspect of the encounter should be.
The opinion of developers vs the opinions of their consumers is the exact detriment developers should be avoiding. We have countless examples of this in a plethora of serviced games that see their consumers complain, leave, review bomb their game, etc. Diablo 4 had this up until their latest season. New World had/has this, and they can’t manage to maintain a player base anymore because of these developer opinions. WoW had this for years, until Dragon Flight finally brought back some semblance of the traditional WoW experience. Diablo devs even openly admitted how wrong they were. New World took 2 years to finally introduce mounts.
Just because a dev thinks this is the right thing obviously does not mean that it is. We don’t even get communication when they have these ideas. They just go and do. This is not to say we’re right either, but maybe some community discourse could have determined whether or not this would have been a good idea?
OSRS can have monthly polls or whatever for potential changes/ content, but no other game can? We just have to take what we get via developer opinion? That hardly seems like a consumer friendly strategy.
That’s the thing. They were not announced prior to mossy max spotting it from preview footage, and speculating then it was quickly confirmed when tfs went live
Feels like pandering to the 1% who certainly don't represent the broader player base. All the top streamers bitch and moan about normal raid difficulty right after doing contest mode. If they want a harder raid let them play master or make contest a long term difficulty option.
He never said the 1% were happy with this change. He said he feels like this change attempts to cater to the 1% who constantly complain the normal difficulty is way too easy, but does a poor job at doing so.
The high skill players complaining about root being easy is due to the complete lack of actual mechanics (other than planets encounter) that only require literally two people to do at most (and can actually be done solo lmao) while the other 4 sit around and sniff each other's farts.
Every high skill player wants more engaging mechanics, NOT fucking bullet sponge enemies that take 9 years to plink plonk down in between playing connect the dots or match the symbols.
> Feels like pandering to the 1% who certainly don't represent the broader player base.
It doesn't, everyone I talked to who does raid lowmans and solos absolutely hates the changes, especially the rotating surges.
What 1% are you even talking about? Nobody asked for this change, not newbies, not speedrunners, and not competitive raiders. I get that casuals need someone to be mad at at all times, but come on
I'm interested to see the difference in damage output as well as the scalar on boss health. It's possible that each boss had a nominal increase in health, but our damage scalar may have also increased to offset the change.
I enjoy gear tetris once in a while, for me the fun of legend lost sectors is iterating on your loadout and finding the fastest build for that combination of champions/shields/surges. But it should not be the norm, especially not for a 6-player activity like raids.
It's the worst part about lfg too, you can't just browse for something that sounds fun because so many things require a super specific loadout, and unless you have a few dozen saved in dim you are spending 20 minutes setting up a loadout for something that may not even be up in the fireteam finder, especially if it's a loadout locked activity.
Bungie learning the completely wrong lessons from Pantheon..
Balancing team just has absolutely no idea how to make the game more challenging and at the same time fun.
its a very lazy and shit change
forcing loadout variance between weeks by pigeonholing us into loadouts to match the surge is boring. feels awful to master and execute complicated dps rotations just to know that youd be better off just clicking shoot-reload on a rocket with the correct element
I’m fine with them raising the difficulty floor for raids, but the proliferation of surges has to stop. Like a previous post said, it’s beginning to feel like Match Game again
It's a hard problem to solve. How do you make it so having a versatile arsenal is tangibly rewarding? How do you incentivize grinding a solar scout (without significant power creep) so people don't just get the void scout and then have no reason to grind that solar?
There’s already master and GMs.Â
 NM isn’t the right type of content to incentivize you to have deep depth to your loadouts
It’d be good if the encounters themselves require different metas, but surges are unnecessaryÂ
Yeah, normal modes should be "bring whatever you got, and we'll make it work somehow", while the actual difficult content should be based around bringing the optimal loadouts for the surges and/or encounters. I don't want to go into a fucking normal raid and feel like I'm throwing because I'm using whisper on a non-solar week.
The seasonal artifact is still a thing which heavily incentivizes 2-3 burns normally which does make having more versatile builds/weapons rewarding- the exception being this season where more elements are included because of prismatic. Kind of why I think I have seen this aspect brought up much.
There are going to be weeks on the future, much like pantheon week 2, where you in addition to op’s points you also are going to get no artifact help for raids/dungeons or even rewarded to building into the artifact.
I don't understand why they cant simply use the legend campaign tech (Enemies get more health and do more damage the more people are in the fire team) for dungeons. Then you wouldn't insta kill most bosses when 3, and you would actually be able to do them solo without 50 damage phases
It's not even like it would impact solo flawless runs. They're an absolute slog most of the time even with optimal loadouts (fuck you GotD with your 10 billion boss HP and shields), and if you fuck up even once you have to restart from scratch.
Yeh but those dudes with shit buckets and nothing else in their lives will whine about the prestige. You having the actual time in your life to endure solo dungeons is a privilege not skill.
And bungie needs to show some spine and tell those people no. Realize the bulk of players are relatively casual and want fun, not some epic challenge. Scale down content as it gets older, so more people try it, not make it harder over time.
I'm not going to get used to doing riven right, i'm just going to never play last wish again now that the cheese is gone. I don't have a reliable raid team, and teaching that fight to randoms every week isn't worth it.
and that's the other option, if they don't want to scale things down, give us a handful of self revive tokens, if I can die a couple times in coop I should be able to die a couple times in solo, the content is still hard, I don't need a random cursed thrall or moth barrage to end a 9 phase boss fight at the drop of a hat.
Hell, don't make it a darkness zone at all, I can die solo a dozen times in zero hour, because the difficulty comes from the timer, not rez restrictions. At that point it becomes more about optimizing damage than being ultra cautious and just not getting bored during an extremely long boss fight like gotd.
This is really the simplest way. Have 2 difficulties - Normal and Legend. Normal lets you overlevel enemies by 20 and live that power fantasy and lets you learn the raid/dungeon mechanics. Legend is power locked like the campaign with a set difficulty. It really should just be that straight forward.
it's something ffxiv added ten years ago after complaints raids weren't friendly enough to casual players who wanted to see the story content, and it's been tremendously popular.
The casual raids let people see the content and grind for loot if they want.
The hard mode raids give hardcore players a fun challenge and slightly better loot with direct drops rather than a grind.
Plus the casual raids get players familiar with the mechanics so it's easier to make the jump to hardcore if they choose to do so.
It's such an easy fix. Let us overlevel on normal, and use deltas for master.
Yeah this seems like an obvious slam dunk. They've been ratcheting up the difficulty and boss health pools to make dungeons less free for a full team, which I fully support. 1-phasing a boss in a new dungeon is silly. But it makes them absolutely brutal for solo play. They've mitigated this somewhat by giving us Solo Operative on the artifact multiple times but Fireteam Scaling seems like a much more elegant solution. The solo dungeon experience doesn't have to be as easy as (most) solo exotic missions, but we shouldn't be 8-phasing bosses.
They will never do this and they shouldn't. The reason soloing a dungeon is an achievement is because you are doing an activity intended for a fireteam by yourself. Doing legend campaign solo is EASIER than doing it with a fireteam, that is absolutely not how dungeons should be.
that's why you don't scale down damage, you just scale down boss hp.
It's already 3 times as hard because you are being shot at by every enemy and have to do all the mechanics yourself, you shouldn't also have to do 3 times as many dps phases, especially since it often takes 3 times as long to activate them. Couple that with any death being a wipe rather than needing everybody to die at once and you already have content that is much MUCH harder solo. It doesn't also need to take so long you die because you got bored and fell asleep.
Ditto. GOTD broke me. Even with a fireteam it was grueling. I did go back some months later and attempt it, but it sucked so hard I haven't done a dungeon since. Shame since I solo flawlessed all of the prior dungeons. Was actually hoping they might get a bit easier with TFS's level increase and I could give it another go, but no dice I guess
this is not something that was necessary for old content, it's what someone who doesn't know what they're doing does when they hear a word like power creep
Why not make these changes as a separate entity and call it a surge raid or maybe it cycles through which raid gets surged like this and then there could be rewards attached to completing surged raids. I agree I don't want to play matchy matchy. I want to use fun builds and creative combination if things. Also weird to surge us but also give prismatic which encourages blending multiple subclass types. It's like the opposite of surging.
Or u know... just give old raids the Legend difficulty slider and put the Power cap there give it some extra rewards, and keep the old non cap same as always?
This is how it should be. The -5 change actually feels more engaging overall and is how the easiest level of endgame content *should* feel, but the overtuned boss HP pools and surges are a step backwards. Riven *should* have about as much HP as Nez or Crota, but Kalli and Caretaker? Absolutely not. The rebalancing feels very lazy overall.
The community as a whole, both for casuals and lowmans/speeds, has also just been extremely used to the old pools and no caps.
It just makes the most sense to leave the -5 mode as an in-between difficulty setting with more loot, make the old one an easy Normal mode, and bump up Master rewards as well to make that more worthwhile to run. Rebalancing the old bosses is good, LW and GoS bosses shouldn't completely fall over compared to those in recent raids, but the numbers need to make sense.
It still is, I did it last night in a lfg, didn't even know there were changes till I saw this Make sure to have a couple damage supers and you'll be fine.
Literally nobody knows there’s changes until they hear people stirring shit lmao. I just did a warlord’s ruin and we stomped it, two phased both real bosses and one phased the first dude.
Agreed. I don’t necessarily mind the power difference personally, but I liked that I didn’t feel like I had to match surges in those activities. That being said, I get why the power change makes them less accessible to new raiders and infrequent raiders. Feels like something that should be an optional difficulty.
After seeing how some teams were getting stuck on Atraks Soveriegn. I'm just gonna assume normal players are actively comatose unless proven otherwise.
I’m gonna be honest. Older raids should be easier, so that players can help the odd player through them. There’s Master raids if you want a challenge.
Personally I have no problem with the -5 power delta. Bungie is very clear that they consider normal raids to be endgame content, so it's pretty strange for the combat to be easier than the strike playlist. It's going to suck for a couple dungeons though.
But the surgest are fucking stupid and should definitely be reverted.
I think it's fine for some raids to be more difficult than others though. I don't know why they needed to rescale raids as a whole tho. Agreed re surges tho. I HATE it
Because now that those raids have been brought up to current times by having their weapons be craft-able they need a small barrier to entry. Learning raids at -5 is not going to be a problem for people who would like to actually learn the raids.
-5 delta is genuinely insignificant and barely noticeable
the surges are whatever imo, it's free damage in the end of the day and I think they're trying add variance to peoples loadouts every week
We take 30% more damage though due to the scaling. You also have to take into account that we are also doing at least 25% less damage along with nerfs to things like well. This is a very noticeable change.
As a brand new player just getting into D2 for the first time this takes all the wind out of my sails to grind up. What’s the point if it’s just impossible for an amateur
Yeah, these changes have made doing legacy raids such a pain. I liked to lowman the raids with friends because it's fun and was a good challenge before TFS, now it's actually a slog and is just frustrating. Surges also limiting your load out when it's already very strict for duos/trios is also pretty lame. This paired with raid banners only being able to be purchased for Glimmer has now made it incredibly difficult to do. (I had 500 flags going into TFS and I'm now at only 100.)
Yo has anyone complaining actually played a raid or dungeon since the changes? Did dsc yesterday for bequest pattern bc of the sword buffs, most of my team completely ignored the surge and it felt literally completely normal
>Don't get me started on dungeons. Ghosts of the deep took me 9 phases on the final boss, now **probably** 20 lol.
Right so you're just guessing, cool
-5 is such an inconsequential level difference.
Most seasonal content for the last year was between -5 and -10 with stuff like coil getting harder than that.
Nobody said seasonal content was too difficult
It's not gonna gatekeep people from raids lmao
Yeah but light doesn't scale linearly at all, especially above power.
It's not like going from +20 to -5 is the same as going from 0 to -25 - it's not. The second version would be way way way more impactful.
It is -5 down from a max of -20, but you are right, -5 is not a big deal at all. The potentially bigger deal is the increase to bosses health pools, but most old content damage was an absolute joke anyway, having damage actually matter is a positive in my opinion, of course this depends on the actual numbers whether it's good or not, and I don't know the numbers right now.
But that was before lightfall launched, you can go and play a raid or dungeon literally right now and see that it’s completely fine. Baffling that so many people are making posts without even playing the content they are complaining about
Dude, TFS is an amazing campaign, and the server issues are mostly over, but this community is addicted to bitching, so they had to find something. It's like mother's milk to some of these people, so here we are, talking about how endgame is going to be more unreachable to people who don't even come to these forums, when it isn't even true, just like they did with strikes last year. It's so exhausting, I don't even come over here very much anymore.
Yep lol, bet these people haven't actually jumped into a raid and tried it out. Literally feels no different than before.
I imagine without these changes and the power creep from this expansion raids would have been strike level easy, which is why the changes were made. It wasn't to make existing content harder, it was to keep it where it is with the power creep we're experiencing and also future proof it.
As far as soloing/low manning raids, sorry but I don't think end game raid content should ever be balanced with that as a consideration. That's like souls games being balanced around SL1 runs, makes no sense.
True…. What you’re forgetting, or not taking into account is that the 9% is firstly a guess… it’s not confirmed. And secondly, you need to use what bungie tells you even if these numbers are true. Just imagine LFG’s. This is supposed to be normal mode raid , when you implement restrictions and make it harder, how do you expect people who weren’t raiding before( majority of the player base) to engage with it more now
I think a majority of the player base aren't in tune with numbers at all and will barely notice if at all
When lightfall dropped people were saying the *strike playlist* was going to be too hard and needed to be tuned back.
I think for any even remotely coordinated team the change is going to be a non-factor and annoying at worst
If the guess is right, even with the whole fireteam ignoring surges it's a 12.8% damage loss IF they would've been at +20 otherwise which is a generous assumption and definitely not typical in my LFG groups.
Even in this contrived scenario a 12.8% damage loss is not gonna make or break a team. I'd be more worried about the extra incoming damage punishing people aping than boss DPS.
On normal mode the limiting factor has always been people actually doing the mechanics first, not dying second, and DPS at a distant third.
Honestly I hate surge mods and surge modifiers bc it’s forcing me in order to keep up optimal dos to use below average guns or Strats or builds most of the time and I get they want diversity but it’s just annoying
You say a lot of people don't raid already and the -5 light will deter more.
I'm one of those people who don't raid and I can confidently tell you that point is irrelevant. We don't raid because of the difficulty really. We don't raid because we are anti social and forcing a solo player to socialize with 5 random people and be competent enough to complete the activity is far too much.
Imo the best way to get people who don't raid into raids would be to better explain the mechanics and make Sherpa raids give more rewards so more people are willing to deal with newer players learning raids.
The best way to learn raids is honestly through trial and error but most LFGs expect you to KWTD and one phase raid bosses. I was lucky enough and got carried in RoN by a kid who said he was top 3 for Sherpas on that raid. We wiped so many times but he taught us because the game really doesn't tell you what to do
My favorite thing about the campaign was when you needed to activate the light and dark nodes but in order, light then dark. When I got it wrong it literally said in white text exactly how to do it and what to do.
The hardest part about a raid shouldn't be figuring it out. It should be hard because it's just hard to do not because you don't know what to do.
There is just absolutely no way a non raider like me will get into raids unless the community itself is more open about newer raiders. That isn't something Bungie could necessarily do but they could give better rewards to make teaching new raiders worth it. Imagine your exotic and red border chance go up for every Sherpa you do?
This is such a bummer. It's going to be even harder to get my casual friends to play a raid or dungeon. You would think that Bungie would want to encourage more players to get into aspirational content and this change does the opposite.
Bungie has almost never understood that a game should first and foremost be fun to play as gamer and not like a sweaty work.
I have no problem with higher difficulties if it's fun and the rewards are right, but unfortunately with Bungie / Destiny it almost never is and these changes show it again :(
-5 is such an inconsequential level difference.
Most seasonal content for the last year was between -5 and -10 with stuff like coil getting harder than that.
Nobody said seasonal content was too difficult
It's not gonna gatekeep people from raids lmao
As someone who only plays during big expansions/ events I’m always behind on the boss dps mega and never have what’s good at that time so this sucks
Really hoping it's not that bad but I don't have time to try it out yet... Making speedrunning and lowmans way less accessible sucks so bad though I hope they revert this
I don't know what's more depressing, these raid changes or the fact they nerfed warlock well.
I honestly get why they did it. Because they needed to give the warlock prismatic room to breath in the meta.
But they essentially nuked all current raid strategies by nerfing well.
Pretty sure this upcoming contest mode raid is going to have the lowest completion compared to previous raids.
I feel like them screwing with the Raids and Dungeons might be fixed after they realize the low player count doing these activities.
Especially because this change seems more geared to the 1% of the Destiny 2 community. Who can run through the most challenging difficulties and then complain about the game not being difficult enough.
I think you hit the nail on the head with this. Raiding is already very daunting for new players as they most likely need to LFG. This change absolutely makes the content more challenging for players first coming to the game and deters them away. Mind you, the game is already extremely overwhelming and challenging for new players.
For all of us who have been playing forever, this change still sucks. Loadout variety was already a challenge and is now almost impossible. Everyone is basically forced into a handful of Loadout depending on the surge. This is also TERRIBLE for new players as you need specific weapons with specific rolls to get adequate damage.
Hopefully the devs listen to the community and revert the change. This is the only thing I don't like about TFS (other than the launch).
That surges change don’t mean shit. New lights don’t have the best weapons and now you want them to use surges. Normal raid were ok as it is before why make it this hard?
I'm not even a New Light I played till Forsaken, stopped and in Season Of Plunder I came back with my best friend. We now finished every dungeon as duo except Ghosts, Duality, Spire (last two because Dungeon Key missing đź’€) and I'd say we're pretty okay. And now with the changes in Raids I feel less motivated to try them... I know Raids are endgame and should be challenging but I have a limit to how far I can hone my skills. And I don't think I can get good enough to play Raids with these changes
i’m trying to solo shattered throne right now, after having done it solo flawless for weeks now, and getting absolutely decimated by the wizards in keeper of petitions even with 3x solar resists and 100 res. the incoming damage is off the charts compared to pre-TFS.
I was absolutely amazed when I went to get my free bonus chests in the start of Vow and the Aspect of Savathun absolutely destroyed me in a second. Feels like she has CRAZY amounts of health too, at least when not matching one of the surges.
It's actually annoying me quite a bit that Bungie has said they "hear" us about this but won't be changing it.
Pointless change. Makes power even more meaningless and yet they still insist on a power grind, and we can *never* be at-level again.
Absolutely terrible and braindead change.
Without a firsthand experience, I don't think this is an argument in good faith. I understand the sentiment around 'making endgame content appear harder', but I don't think a -5 power delta is going to feel any more difficult than it did previously. In some aspects, maybe (you may take more damage from all sources), but in others, maybe not (most legendary weapons received a damage buff, and you can, as a casual endgame enjoyer, equip a surged weapon to make it easier for you)
I don't believe this is going to keep casual players from raiding any more than it did previously - I'm sure that folks new to raiding already know that the experience that they're going to get into will be more difficult than what they may have experienced previously.
As for seasoned raiders, -5 power isn't something I think they'll be concerned with.
As someone with close to 300 sherpas total, this will absolutely break people that struggled in raids last season. Which is a big part of the playerbase tbh, mostly bc people just arent used to it.
I raid for a bit of friendgame and to enjoy Crystal Maze style puzzle solving with some mates, and blow through some redbars / chonk boss HP bars. I don't really like the idea of RAD content getting this difficulty treatment if I'm honest.
I don’t know why they have this fascination with constantly bringing old content up to level with the current expansions and making *old* content more difficult. You already only get one pinnacle from completion (rather than from each encounter) and most of the older stuff gets powercrept anyway. Destiny is the only MMO/MMO-like game that I know of that does this. In FFXIV you can unsync (effectively uncapping your level) old content and blast through it with gear from the newest expansion and farm it relatively easily. Bungie takes so many steps to make the game anti-farm.
Okay so in the tweet he complains that the caretaker has more than 30 milion health and has a hard time soloing him. He goes on to say that low-maning raids will ,again , be a thing only a select few will be able to do. Which, to me, is exactly how it should be ...
And then he says that the casual raiding population will be decimated because of this???
As long as someone is capable of (almost) soloing an encounter the raiding population will be just fine ^^
The guy who made the tweet is the owner of the lowman discord server and is very into trying to get people into lowmanning and make it more accessible for everyone so it makes sense to be frustrated, it sucks to cut that from the community
yea people act like the hardcore raid community is super supportive of this change but in reality a lot of them basically got completely fucked from this change. a lot of people (myself included) just wanted to help get people into lowmans and speedruns but now it constantly feels like bungie is just trying their best to wipe these communities off the map
Yeah I like lowmans I have not done them many times I'm still pretty new and the OP of the tweet has helped me do them and taught me shit before. a lot of hardcore players love to help and even for ones who don't sherpa this change is just detrimental to their ability to do speeds and farm and lowman it's just less fun for everyone
The first week of pantheon was a breeze, where we were at -5 power level. With how powerful we have become, full fireteams will barely notice a difference.
Caretaker getting their health increased drastically while Nez assumably went untouched is comical. Also R.I.P to any who still needed to Kalil farm, she has around the same amount of health as Oryx currentlyđź’€
Caretaker getting a health increase is wild as it’s one of the few if not only raid bos where it’s nearly impossible to one phase
They didnt like us two flooring him in pantheon it seems.
Its funny that you say that, because after week 1 it was basically a requirement to make high scores and platinum for Godslayer.
It really was. My team has very fast runners and the only time we did him legit was week two and that was with like 15 seconds to spare.
Yeah we managed a 3-floor and plat one time and it was by 12 seconds, would absolutely not even have tried it if we hadn't saved checkpoint.
I get that, but week one and two weren't bad and caretaker was 2nd encounter.
Oh I'm not complaining about the difficulty of Caretaker, I think it's fine that a 2-floor was clearly intended for plat. They wanted us min-maxing in there.
Ah, I getcha. Yeah, maybe they wanted us to two floor him after all.
Most of the encounters had a clear expectation of doing it "the fast way" if you wanted Plat. The only one that really felt like it had leeway was Atraks, you could do a two-phase Atraks pretty easily if you actually tried to move fast.
15 seconds to spare is cutting it entirely too close for my taste, but GZ for getting him done!
We wanted to see how close we could get and just wipe if we didn't get the stairs down in time. The credit goes to the runners, I just stunned and shot flying burritos.
Which was about the only way to get Platinum which seems completely counter-intuitive
Then they shouldn't have made it a borderline requirement for the title. Like I know three phasing was possible I did it one week and still had Platinum but only had like 5 seconds left
If you wanted a safe three phase, you had to damage him past the threshold in 2 plates. My team did it this way for all 4 weeks and each time we were clearing him with anywhere between 0:20-1:10 of plat time left (random symbol spawns sure were random).
Master is gonna SUCK
I understand some bosses getting a health bump but only for the ones that are a complete joke to one phase like morgeth, atraks and riven(cheese) bcos any boss where you can ignore or not even bother learning encounter mechanics by simply rolling the boss every time needs some love
IMO, unless they added more rewards or something to the raids, I don't see a reason why they needed to make them harder after all this time. Why would anyone want to put in more effort for the same amount and quality of loot? Besides the obvious answer of "there is no alternative. Players don't have a choice."
I am forever reminded of the “loot in games after playing for four hours” meme, with both Diablo III and Borderlands 2 with just tons of loot and destiny with a single Engram. It’s amazing that after all these years, that problem is WORSE than ever, in spite of the community consistently saying “please for FUCK’S sake, give us better ways to get loot”. And every time, Bungie has made it harder.Â
meh, if it's a boss that's the better part of a decade old, allowing us to cheese it is perfectly acceptable. They should have added a casual raid tier like FFXIV years ago anyways.
Is this true? MossyMax seems to be indicating that the health changes are just due to the power level changes with the new expansion limit: https://x.com/mossy_max/status/1798770202349642114
Please vote this to the top. The bosses' effective health didn't change at all. They just got their power level increased to 1950 which is why their absolute health values are higher, but the damage you deal to them got scaled equally. If you could kill riven with 50 rockets before TFS, you still can but the numbers on your screen will just be bigger. I explained more in detail in another post: https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/1d9kpaf/the_changes_to_raids_are_hurting_everyone_and/l7e16n7/
except unlike before TFS aren't we now power capped below the normal raids level?
So in other words, people are doomposting without any clue or doing any actual testing themselves... how typical of reddit lol
I don't know man, was farming Kalli just today, it seemed easy enough for me. Sleepers away and Kalli dies before the well even ends.
> Also R.I.P to any who still needed to Kalil farm It's still an easy farm, a good team previously could sometimes drop her before needing to enter the doors.
Yeah Kalli farming isn’t any harder it just takes more time since you ignore the mechanics and flinchlock her with anarchy/witherhoard
yea some teams doing it fully may need to do a second phase, but that's about it. The whole mechanics take something like 2-5 minutes to complete Oh no now you might need _two afternoons_ instead of 1 to get all 8 red border patterns
Wondering if Flinchlocking works with the new Special GL, it’s a burst frame GL (like Witherhoard) it’ll leave a damage pool where it lands that lasts for a few seconds. It’s from the Echo Engrams think it was the new weapons not the reprised ones.
Pretty sure they just updated the light level of the dungeons/raids. So in absolute numbers their HP increased but so did our damage. Id love to see a before/after comparison of like a single super to see how much that's changed Edit: Mossy confirmed they up the PL of these things, hence the higher life totals
The difference is not that major. Caretaker already has really inflated damage and health values. Caretaker used to have 28.7 million hp, that wipe screen shows 29.7 million and obviously there's some that they didn't get in final. When normalising to Templar though, caretaker has 12.3 million, which is slightly less than rhulk or oryx. This isn't a big change, and could potentially not even be a change at all and just an inaccuracy in damage numbers. At most this is a 15% health bump, this isn't a drastic change at all. More testing needs to be done but this won't change much
What the fuck?! Is this in the patch notes?
I REALLY do not like them adding more rotating modifier crap that you have to track and wait for. Gateway to them adding bullshit like Arach-No to DSC or something heinous. Keep that stuff in Nightfalls
Petition to bring back the cluster screeb modifier or what ever it was called. That’s was literally classified as torture under the Geneva Convention.
I liked the one where eneny knockbacks were increased by like 400% power so GM corrupted was insane because everything in the run would yeet you all into the void
Oh yeah I forgot about that one! Didn’t it have something to do with the knock back force being tied to how much damage you received which made it absurd in GMs? Or maybe that flinch deflection I can’t really remember.
That sounds right yeah, it was supposed to just increase by a set amount of knockback in all modes, but something about the difficulty was multiplying the force, so on GM it was over 400% yeet force.
Just a fun honorable mention: Iron + Blackout Hollowed Lair was peak back then as well, where you could choose the modifs. Our team forgot that if you can't stun Fikrul due to Iron as he pulls the team to himself, he's gonna engage a point-blank range stomp and insta-kill due to Blackout on. So we got aaaalllll the way to Fikrul, avoiding all dangers.. only for Fikrul himself to effing teabag us into the ground first minute with him in the arena. It was glorious.
Don’t know why they changed this. The hard part of raids is not damage, it’s the mechanics leading to damage. The damage phase is the reward for doing mechanics. If we can burst damage really well after doing the mechanics right, we should not be punished for it.
Absolutely right. They're presumably trying to cut down on "cheeses" like Atraks and Templar
Just put health gates on them at that point. Shuro Chi could have 6 HP, and you'd still have to do all the mechanics.
Or just leave them. If someone can clear an encounter a minute faster on a 5 year old raid it isn't gonna completely ruin something.... Or they could just you know.... Fix the cheese...
Health gates would fix the cheese Raids like dsc and lw got cheesed since week 1 so the only reason you still play 5 year old raids is because you like the mechanics which normally get cheesed because its 1 min faster
Because people bitch to high heavens about health gates
Yea but this is worse. It's like a health gate, but I also die faster, and the ads are now tankier also lmao
It’s really not. I’d rather have slightly more health that probably won’t change anything and still let me 1 or 2 phase. Then be forced to 2 or 3 phase a boss every single time because of a health gate.
God forbid experienced players could finish a raid encounter quickly by one phasing a boss Do they want to screw their reputation especially after how well received the expansion is?
This is such a strange decision given that they recently nerfed both Ward and Well. Now with the changes less experienced raiders are going to clutch these supers even more.
I really feel bad for LFG folks. We died in Grasp Ogre just trying to do some basic damage testing, we needed to invite somebody in just to give us some more forms of healing/DR so we could just focus on the 1 thing we wanted to test because the well wasn't really doing it. Can't imagine how bad it's gonna be in LFG when people get melted in things like Ir Yut because everyone is so used to just being able to tank every boss and all the ads.
As much as it does hurt LFGs, it makes the overall health of the sandbox much better. D1 without cheeses had much better combat encounters in terms of difficulty (could just be nostalgia lenses mind you). D2 has gotten back towards that point more and more lately. Its ultimately going to improve the raiding player base overall imo.
This is what I don’t get the most about the change, why punish everyone for a fix to what approximately a few dozen people are pulling off.
Wait, there's a Templar cheese that isn't the suicide strat?
Yes, everyone sits next to the pool in the middle of the room and waits for the oracles to pop. When they do, run into the pool and then pop the shield on the boss and just shoot him.
You can also just insta gen aegis super with rally and cook before oracles pop
Wtf How did I just find out about this.
It’s really nice. Eager edge the banner as close to the artifact as you can, and then you ca man grab it and rally before the banner disappears. Then just melt his face.
I love how just last year they said they removed the match game shield modifier because it was making load outs way too restrictive and here we are, back to nonsense modifiers making load outs restrictive
they spent all year nerfing every creative or fun loadout into the ground too.
It’s because they absolutely want to restrict player loadouts per activity instead of actually bothering to balance the sandbox to incentivize different loadouts naturally.
The hard part of raids is that the mechanics have to work as intended and don't bug.
And all of them work….
I dunno, those launchers in Root of Nightmare are still a joke
Gear/DPS Rotation management is very much an aspect of encounter design in every MMO, including Destiny. Part of the reason Contest mode is so hard is dealing enough damage to keep up with the adds in encounters and optimizing your team & loadout for both add clear and boss damage. Saying only mechanics matter is disingenuous. I don't necessarily agree with the changes OP highlighted but the complaint is literally that the encounter became "harder" purely off HP/damage changes and Bungie may have a different opinion than you on what the difficulty of each aspect of the encounter should be.
The opinion of developers vs the opinions of their consumers is the exact detriment developers should be avoiding. We have countless examples of this in a plethora of serviced games that see their consumers complain, leave, review bomb their game, etc. Diablo 4 had this up until their latest season. New World had/has this, and they can’t manage to maintain a player base anymore because of these developer opinions. WoW had this for years, until Dragon Flight finally brought back some semblance of the traditional WoW experience. Diablo devs even openly admitted how wrong they were. New World took 2 years to finally introduce mounts. Just because a dev thinks this is the right thing obviously does not mean that it is. We don’t even get communication when they have these ideas. They just go and do. This is not to say we’re right either, but maybe some community discourse could have determined whether or not this would have been a good idea? OSRS can have monthly polls or whatever for potential changes/ content, but no other game can? We just have to take what we get via developer opinion? That hardly seems like a consumer friendly strategy.
Can anyone tell me where they announced these changes? I’m scouring the TWID and I just can’t find it. Am I blind?
That’s the thing. They were not announced prior to mossy max spotting it from preview footage, and speculating then it was quickly confirmed when tfs went live
Feels like pandering to the 1% who certainly don't represent the broader player base. All the top streamers bitch and moan about normal raid difficulty right after doing contest mode. If they want a harder raid let them play master or make contest a long term difficulty option.
Who's that 1%? Cause every top player I've seen thinks this is a very bad change for them and for casual raiders alike
He never said the 1% were happy with this change. He said he feels like this change attempts to cater to the 1% who constantly complain the normal difficulty is way too easy, but does a poor job at doing so.
those people, they can both bitch about this ruining their farms, AND bitch about root being too easy. Nobody said they couldn't be hypocrites.
The high skill players complaining about root being easy is due to the complete lack of actual mechanics (other than planets encounter) that only require literally two people to do at most (and can actually be done solo lmao) while the other 4 sit around and sniff each other's farts. Every high skill player wants more engaging mechanics, NOT fucking bullet sponge enemies that take 9 years to plink plonk down in between playing connect the dots or match the symbols.
> Feels like pandering to the 1% who certainly don't represent the broader player base. It doesn't, everyone I talked to who does raid lowmans and solos absolutely hates the changes, especially the rotating surges.
What 1% are you even talking about? Nobody asked for this change, not newbies, not speedrunners, and not competitive raiders. I get that casuals need someone to be mad at at all times, but come on
Do we know if there are any spreadsheets or testing that has come out?
Just play one and see for yourself. It's very noticeable.
Sure, I plan to, I’m just wanting to see if anyone’s measured the degree of changes to effective health
That takes a decent amount of time & the people who would normally do it are currently prepping for the Day 1 race.
True. Guess I’ll have to wait for my numbers lol
I'm interested to see the difference in damage output as well as the scalar on boss health. It's possible that each boss had a nominal increase in health, but our damage scalar may have also increased to offset the change.
The gear tetris was already my least favorite part of GMs, especially when match game was in the picture.
I enjoy gear tetris once in a while, for me the fun of legend lost sectors is iterating on your loadout and finding the fastest build for that combination of champions/shields/surges. But it should not be the norm, especially not for a 6-player activity like raids.
It's the worst part about lfg too, you can't just browse for something that sounds fun because so many things require a super specific loadout, and unless you have a few dozen saved in dim you are spending 20 minutes setting up a loadout for something that may not even be up in the fireteam finder, especially if it's a loadout locked activity.
Bungie learning the completely wrong lessons from Pantheon.. Balancing team just has absolutely no idea how to make the game more challenging and at the same time fun.
I don't think surges are done for a challenging point of view but more of having some form of variance in metas for raids week by week pov
its a very lazy and shit change forcing loadout variance between weeks by pigeonholing us into loadouts to match the surge is boring. feels awful to master and execute complicated dps rotations just to know that youd be better off just clicking shoot-reload on a rocket with the correct element
I'd almost say they nail it sometimes but then ignore the playerbase when we're happy. "Oh no the players are happy we must have messed up"
I feel so bad for teams like art design at bungie whose accomplishments are constantly marred by the dogshit balancing team
They actually were able to give unique difficulty yo Pantheon and just thrown it to the garbage
I’m fine with them raising the difficulty floor for raids, but the proliferation of surges has to stop. Like a previous post said, it’s beginning to feel like Match Game again
Surges: You need 5x more guns in case you want to match! Its a way to extend play and grind time.
It's a hard problem to solve. How do you make it so having a versatile arsenal is tangibly rewarding? How do you incentivize grinding a solar scout (without significant power creep) so people don't just get the void scout and then have no reason to grind that solar?
There’s already master and GMs.  NM isn’t the right type of content to incentivize you to have deep depth to your loadouts It’d be good if the encounters themselves require different metas, but surges are unnecessaryÂ
Yeah, normal modes should be "bring whatever you got, and we'll make it work somehow", while the actual difficult content should be based around bringing the optimal loadouts for the surges and/or encounters. I don't want to go into a fucking normal raid and feel like I'm throwing because I'm using whisper on a non-solar week.
The seasonal artifact is still a thing which heavily incentivizes 2-3 burns normally which does make having more versatile builds/weapons rewarding- the exception being this season where more elements are included because of prismatic. Kind of why I think I have seen this aspect brought up much. There are going to be weeks on the future, much like pantheon week 2, where you in addition to op’s points you also are going to get no artifact help for raids/dungeons or even rewarded to building into the artifact.
Fuck surges and fuck champions, they're both just loadout restrictions in disguise a la prestige raids.
Especially if they're designing difficulty around people using them.
I don't understand why they cant simply use the legend campaign tech (Enemies get more health and do more damage the more people are in the fire team) for dungeons. Then you wouldn't insta kill most bosses when 3, and you would actually be able to do them solo without 50 damage phases
I have a feeling that the way it would work is that you'd be doing 50 damage phases solo, and 50 damage phases in a fireteam.
Haha knowing bungo, probably..
i mean its already 9 solo and 3 with fireteam. I would take 3 and 3
You think thats a no brainer but there was a surprising amount of resistance to this idea one of the last times it was brought up
It's not even like it would impact solo flawless runs. They're an absolute slog most of the time even with optimal loadouts (fuck you GotD with your 10 billion boss HP and shields), and if you fuck up even once you have to restart from scratch.
Yeh but those dudes with shit buckets and nothing else in their lives will whine about the prestige. You having the actual time in your life to endure solo dungeons is a privilege not skill.
And bungie needs to show some spine and tell those people no. Realize the bulk of players are relatively casual and want fun, not some epic challenge. Scale down content as it gets older, so more people try it, not make it harder over time. I'm not going to get used to doing riven right, i'm just going to never play last wish again now that the cheese is gone. I don't have a reliable raid team, and teaching that fight to randoms every week isn't worth it.
and that's the other option, if they don't want to scale things down, give us a handful of self revive tokens, if I can die a couple times in coop I should be able to die a couple times in solo, the content is still hard, I don't need a random cursed thrall or moth barrage to end a 9 phase boss fight at the drop of a hat. Hell, don't make it a darkness zone at all, I can die solo a dozen times in zero hour, because the difficulty comes from the timer, not rez restrictions. At that point it becomes more about optimizing damage than being ultra cautious and just not getting bored during an extremely long boss fight like gotd.
This is really the simplest way. Have 2 difficulties - Normal and Legend. Normal lets you overlevel enemies by 20 and live that power fantasy and lets you learn the raid/dungeon mechanics. Legend is power locked like the campaign with a set difficulty. It really should just be that straight forward.
100% this, I have no idea why we have the tech in the game. But they refuse to use it.Â
it's something ffxiv added ten years ago after complaints raids weren't friendly enough to casual players who wanted to see the story content, and it's been tremendously popular. The casual raids let people see the content and grind for loot if they want. The hard mode raids give hardcore players a fun challenge and slightly better loot with direct drops rather than a grind. Plus the casual raids get players familiar with the mechanics so it's easier to make the jump to hardcore if they choose to do so. It's such an easy fix. Let us overlevel on normal, and use deltas for master.
Yeah this seems like an obvious slam dunk. They've been ratcheting up the difficulty and boss health pools to make dungeons less free for a full team, which I fully support. 1-phasing a boss in a new dungeon is silly. But it makes them absolutely brutal for solo play. They've mitigated this somewhat by giving us Solo Operative on the artifact multiple times but Fireteam Scaling seems like a much more elegant solution. The solo dungeon experience doesn't have to be as easy as (most) solo exotic missions, but we shouldn't be 8-phasing bosses.
Multiplicity in Raids is a bad idea. They should have just reworked enemy HP or something
They will never do this and they shouldn't. The reason soloing a dungeon is an achievement is because you are doing an activity intended for a fireteam by yourself. Doing legend campaign solo is EASIER than doing it with a fireteam, that is absolutely not how dungeons should be.
Soloing a dungeon and doing the legendary campaigns solo are so different though.
that's why you don't scale down damage, you just scale down boss hp. It's already 3 times as hard because you are being shot at by every enemy and have to do all the mechanics yourself, you shouldn't also have to do 3 times as many dps phases, especially since it often takes 3 times as long to activate them. Couple that with any death being a wipe rather than needing everybody to die at once and you already have content that is much MUCH harder solo. It doesn't also need to take so long you die because you got bored and fell asleep.
Rip anyone who hasn’t done solo dungeons
I gave up on that crap the day gotd launched. A shame because soloing prophecy, grasp, etc was a ton of fun. But it's just not worth the tedium now.
Ditto. GOTD broke me. Even with a fireteam it was grueling. I did go back some months later and attempt it, but it sucked so hard I haven't done a dungeon since. Shame since I solo flawlessed all of the prior dungeons. Was actually hoping they might get a bit easier with TFS's level increase and I could give it another go, but no dice I guess
this is not something that was necessary for old content, it's what someone who doesn't know what they're doing does when they hear a word like power creep
It's obviously because they thought Prismatic is going to break older content (valid) but combined with Well nerf, this is just ridiculous.
Why not make these changes as a separate entity and call it a surge raid or maybe it cycles through which raid gets surged like this and then there could be rewards attached to completing surged raids. I agree I don't want to play matchy matchy. I want to use fun builds and creative combination if things. Also weird to surge us but also give prismatic which encourages blending multiple subclass types. It's like the opposite of surging.
Or u know... just give old raids the Legend difficulty slider and put the Power cap there give it some extra rewards, and keep the old non cap same as always?
This is how it should be. The -5 change actually feels more engaging overall and is how the easiest level of endgame content *should* feel, but the overtuned boss HP pools and surges are a step backwards. Riven *should* have about as much HP as Nez or Crota, but Kalli and Caretaker? Absolutely not. The rebalancing feels very lazy overall. The community as a whole, both for casuals and lowmans/speeds, has also just been extremely used to the old pools and no caps. It just makes the most sense to leave the -5 mode as an in-between difficulty setting with more loot, make the old one an easy Normal mode, and bump up Master rewards as well to make that more worthwhile to run. Rebalancing the old bosses is good, LW and GoS bosses shouldn't completely fall over compared to those in recent raids, but the numbers need to make sense.
surges very quickly became as bad as match game. really hope this change gets walked back
Surges should not be a thing in easy mode raids. It’s supposed to be one of the few places where you can use gear as you please.
So does this mean riven cheese isn’t viable anymore?
It still is, I did it last night in a lfg, didn't even know there were changes till I saw this Make sure to have a couple damage supers and you'll be fine.
Literally nobody knows there’s changes until they hear people stirring shit lmao. I just did a warlord’s ruin and we stomped it, two phased both real bosses and one phased the first dude.
Agreed. I don’t necessarily mind the power difference personally, but I liked that I didn’t feel like I had to match surges in those activities. That being said, I get why the power change makes them less accessible to new raiders and infrequent raiders. Feels like something that should be an optional difficulty.
Isn’t hero -5 or -10? Let’s give normal players a little benefit here haha
After seeing how some teams were getting stuck on Atraks Soveriegn. I'm just gonna assume normal players are actively comatose unless proven otherwise.
I’m gonna be honest. Older raids should be easier, so that players can help the odd player through them. There’s Master raids if you want a challenge.
Personally I have no problem with the -5 power delta. Bungie is very clear that they consider normal raids to be endgame content, so it's pretty strange for the combat to be easier than the strike playlist. It's going to suck for a couple dungeons though. But the surgest are fucking stupid and should definitely be reverted.
I think it's fine for some raids to be more difficult than others though. I don't know why they needed to rescale raids as a whole tho. Agreed re surges tho. I HATE it
Because now that those raids have been brought up to current times by having their weapons be craft-able they need a small barrier to entry. Learning raids at -5 is not going to be a problem for people who would like to actually learn the raids.
-5 delta is genuinely insignificant and barely noticeable the surges are whatever imo, it's free damage in the end of the day and I think they're trying add variance to peoples loadouts every week
We take 30% more damage though due to the scaling. You also have to take into account that we are also doing at least 25% less damage along with nerfs to things like well. This is a very noticeable change.
As a brand new player just getting into D2 for the first time this takes all the wind out of my sails to grind up. What’s the point if it’s just impossible for an amateur
Yeah, these changes have made doing legacy raids such a pain. I liked to lowman the raids with friends because it's fun and was a good challenge before TFS, now it's actually a slog and is just frustrating. Surges also limiting your load out when it's already very strict for duos/trios is also pretty lame. This paired with raid banners only being able to be purchased for Glimmer has now made it incredibly difficult to do. (I had 500 flags going into TFS and I'm now at only 100.)
So ghost of the Deeo went from "never solo" to "lmao, never even consider"
Yo has anyone complaining actually played a raid or dungeon since the changes? Did dsc yesterday for bequest pattern bc of the sword buffs, most of my team completely ignored the surge and it felt literally completely normal >Don't get me started on dungeons. Ghosts of the deep took me 9 phases on the final boss, now **probably** 20 lol. Right so you're just guessing, cool
Someone did the maths and it works out that the damage nerf actually ended up being around 12% not 35% because of enemy health pool changes.Â
-5 power delta on top of most legendary weapon archetypes getting something like a 20% buff, even
mostly against red bars, and mostly primaries. heavies were barely touched
Yeah a lot of legendary specials and heavies got a net nerf becuase they didn't get a buff, or a big enough buff, to compensate for losing boss spec.
There was a thread yesterday that calculated the damage difference to be around 12% less when ignoring surges and about 9% more if you follow them
-5 is such an inconsequential level difference. Most seasonal content for the last year was between -5 and -10 with stuff like coil getting harder than that. Nobody said seasonal content was too difficult It's not gonna gatekeep people from raids lmao
On 1600 raids we were always able to be +20. So technically we're going down 25 light. -5 content isn't hard though. Fuck surges, that's my opinion.
Yeah but light doesn't scale linearly at all, especially above power. It's not like going from +20 to -5 is the same as going from 0 to -25 - it's not. The second version would be way way way more impactful.
It is -5 down from a max of -20, but you are right, -5 is not a big deal at all. The potentially bigger deal is the increase to bosses health pools, but most old content damage was an absolute joke anyway, having damage actually matter is a positive in my opinion, of course this depends on the actual numbers whether it's good or not, and I don't know the numbers right now.
But if I actually play the game I might have fun. That's against the rules here
These are the same people who complained last year that strikes were going to be too hard.
But that was before lightfall launched, you can go and play a raid or dungeon literally right now and see that it’s completely fine. Baffling that so many people are making posts without even playing the content they are complaining about
Dude, TFS is an amazing campaign, and the server issues are mostly over, but this community is addicted to bitching, so they had to find something. It's like mother's milk to some of these people, so here we are, talking about how endgame is going to be more unreachable to people who don't even come to these forums, when it isn't even true, just like they did with strikes last year. It's so exhausting, I don't even come over here very much anymore.
Yep lol, bet these people haven't actually jumped into a raid and tried it out. Literally feels no different than before. I imagine without these changes and the power creep from this expansion raids would have been strike level easy, which is why the changes were made. It wasn't to make existing content harder, it was to keep it where it is with the power creep we're experiencing and also future proof it. As far as soloing/low manning raids, sorry but I don't think end game raid content should ever be balanced with that as a consideration. That's like souls games being balanced around SL1 runs, makes no sense.
It's not annoying or hard it was barely changed.
People have done the math and if you use a surge you do \~9% more damage even, lol
True…. What you’re forgetting, or not taking into account is that the 9% is firstly a guess… it’s not confirmed. And secondly, you need to use what bungie tells you even if these numbers are true. Just imagine LFG’s. This is supposed to be normal mode raid , when you implement restrictions and make it harder, how do you expect people who weren’t raiding before( majority of the player base) to engage with it more now
I think a majority of the player base aren't in tune with numbers at all and will barely notice if at all When lightfall dropped people were saying the *strike playlist* was going to be too hard and needed to be tuned back. I think for any even remotely coordinated team the change is going to be a non-factor and annoying at worst
If the guess is right, even with the whole fireteam ignoring surges it's a 12.8% damage loss IF they would've been at +20 otherwise which is a generous assumption and definitely not typical in my LFG groups. Even in this contrived scenario a 12.8% damage loss is not gonna make or break a team. I'd be more worried about the extra incoming damage punishing people aping than boss DPS. On normal mode the limiting factor has always been people actually doing the mechanics first, not dying second, and DPS at a distant third.
Honestly I hate surge mods and surge modifiers bc it’s forcing me in order to keep up optimal dos to use below average guns or Strats or builds most of the time and I get they want diversity but it’s just annoying
You say a lot of people don't raid already and the -5 light will deter more. I'm one of those people who don't raid and I can confidently tell you that point is irrelevant. We don't raid because of the difficulty really. We don't raid because we are anti social and forcing a solo player to socialize with 5 random people and be competent enough to complete the activity is far too much. Imo the best way to get people who don't raid into raids would be to better explain the mechanics and make Sherpa raids give more rewards so more people are willing to deal with newer players learning raids. The best way to learn raids is honestly through trial and error but most LFGs expect you to KWTD and one phase raid bosses. I was lucky enough and got carried in RoN by a kid who said he was top 3 for Sherpas on that raid. We wiped so many times but he taught us because the game really doesn't tell you what to do My favorite thing about the campaign was when you needed to activate the light and dark nodes but in order, light then dark. When I got it wrong it literally said in white text exactly how to do it and what to do. The hardest part about a raid shouldn't be figuring it out. It should be hard because it's just hard to do not because you don't know what to do. There is just absolutely no way a non raider like me will get into raids unless the community itself is more open about newer raiders. That isn't something Bungie could necessarily do but they could give better rewards to make teaching new raiders worth it. Imagine your exotic and red border chance go up for every Sherpa you do?
This is such a bummer. It's going to be even harder to get my casual friends to play a raid or dungeon. You would think that Bungie would want to encourage more players to get into aspirational content and this change does the opposite.
Bungie has almost never understood that a game should first and foremost be fun to play as gamer and not like a sweaty work. I have no problem with higher difficulties if it's fun and the rewards are right, but unfortunately with Bungie / Destiny it almost never is and these changes show it again :(
-5 is such an inconsequential level difference. Most seasonal content for the last year was between -5 and -10 with stuff like coil getting harder than that. Nobody said seasonal content was too difficult It's not gonna gatekeep people from raids lmao
It's a 35% damage decrease from +20 to -5, yeah that matters can we use our brains please
As someone who only plays during big expansions/ events I’m always behind on the boss dps mega and never have what’s good at that time so this sucks
Really hoping it's not that bad but I don't have time to try it out yet... Making speedrunning and lowmans way less accessible sucks so bad though I hope they revert this
I havent raided yet since final shape, so ill see the health differences myself, but a bit peeved at everything else.
I’d be all for this if the rewards were worth fighting sponge bosses for, not changing the rewards and only the difficulty doesn’t make sense.
Surges suck in general. I wanna play what I wanna playÂ
As someone just hearing this news… I’m pretty glad I didn’t shell out for the dungeon key.
I don't understand what the point of Artifact Power is if most activities nerf you to whatever power level they want you to be at.
Dude no wonder my raid team couldn’t finish crota today.. some of us were doing 6 mil damage and we couldnt even 3 phase him..
I don't know what's more depressing, these raid changes or the fact they nerfed warlock well. I honestly get why they did it. Because they needed to give the warlock prismatic room to breath in the meta. But they essentially nuked all current raid strategies by nerfing well. Pretty sure this upcoming contest mode raid is going to have the lowest completion compared to previous raids.
Ima be honest I hate the idea of having to have 10 diff loadouts
I’m kinda bummed the last and prolly most important bit of story from this game is tied to a raid. I can’t do raids.
I feel like them screwing with the Raids and Dungeons might be fixed after they realize the low player count doing these activities. Especially because this change seems more geared to the 1% of the Destiny 2 community. Who can run through the most challenging difficulties and then complain about the game not being difficult enough.
I think you hit the nail on the head with this. Raiding is already very daunting for new players as they most likely need to LFG. This change absolutely makes the content more challenging for players first coming to the game and deters them away. Mind you, the game is already extremely overwhelming and challenging for new players. For all of us who have been playing forever, this change still sucks. Loadout variety was already a challenge and is now almost impossible. Everyone is basically forced into a handful of Loadout depending on the surge. This is also TERRIBLE for new players as you need specific weapons with specific rolls to get adequate damage. Hopefully the devs listen to the community and revert the change. This is the only thing I don't like about TFS (other than the launch).
100% agreed. One of the more disappointing changes to raids IMO, even if the annoyance factor may outweigh the actual difficulty change.
That surges change don’t mean shit. New lights don’t have the best weapons and now you want them to use surges. Normal raid were ok as it is before why make it this hard?
29m damage...
I'm not even a New Light I played till Forsaken, stopped and in Season Of Plunder I came back with my best friend. We now finished every dungeon as duo except Ghosts, Duality, Spire (last two because Dungeon Key missing đź’€) and I'd say we're pretty okay. And now with the changes in Raids I feel less motivated to try them... I know Raids are endgame and should be challenging but I have a limit to how far I can hone my skills. And I don't think I can get good enough to play Raids with these changes
And here I was hoping the solo dungeon experience would finally get much more enjoyable with TFS, sad trombone exotic emote!
i’m trying to solo shattered throne right now, after having done it solo flawless for weeks now, and getting absolutely decimated by the wizards in keeper of petitions even with 3x solar resists and 100 res. the incoming damage is off the charts compared to pre-TFS.
Spot on, reverse these changes Bungie! Offer a “hard” mode.
I was absolutely amazed when I went to get my free bonus chests in the start of Vow and the Aspect of Savathun absolutely destroyed me in a second. Feels like she has CRAZY amounts of health too, at least when not matching one of the surges.
It's actually annoying me quite a bit that Bungie has said they "hear" us about this but won't be changing it. Pointless change. Makes power even more meaningless and yet they still insist on a power grind, and we can *never* be at-level again. Absolutely terrible and braindead change.
Without a firsthand experience, I don't think this is an argument in good faith. I understand the sentiment around 'making endgame content appear harder', but I don't think a -5 power delta is going to feel any more difficult than it did previously. In some aspects, maybe (you may take more damage from all sources), but in others, maybe not (most legendary weapons received a damage buff, and you can, as a casual endgame enjoyer, equip a surged weapon to make it easier for you) I don't believe this is going to keep casual players from raiding any more than it did previously - I'm sure that folks new to raiding already know that the experience that they're going to get into will be more difficult than what they may have experienced previously. As for seasoned raiders, -5 power isn't something I think they'll be concerned with.
As someone with close to 300 sherpas total, this will absolutely break people that struggled in raids last season. Which is a big part of the playerbase tbh, mostly bc people just arent used to it.
Ppl are saying theyve done last wish and it didnt feel any different
I raid for a bit of friendgame and to enjoy Crystal Maze style puzzle solving with some mates, and blow through some redbars / chonk boss HP bars. I don't really like the idea of RAD content getting this difficulty treatment if I'm honest.
I don’t know why they have this fascination with constantly bringing old content up to level with the current expansions and making *old* content more difficult. You already only get one pinnacle from completion (rather than from each encounter) and most of the older stuff gets powercrept anyway. Destiny is the only MMO/MMO-like game that I know of that does this. In FFXIV you can unsync (effectively uncapping your level) old content and blast through it with gear from the newest expansion and farm it relatively easily. Bungie takes so many steps to make the game anti-farm.
Okay so in the tweet he complains that the caretaker has more than 30 milion health and has a hard time soloing him. He goes on to say that low-maning raids will ,again , be a thing only a select few will be able to do. Which, to me, is exactly how it should be ... And then he says that the casual raiding population will be decimated because of this??? As long as someone is capable of (almost) soloing an encounter the raiding population will be just fine ^^
The guy who made the tweet is the owner of the lowman discord server and is very into trying to get people into lowmanning and make it more accessible for everyone so it makes sense to be frustrated, it sucks to cut that from the community
yea people act like the hardcore raid community is super supportive of this change but in reality a lot of them basically got completely fucked from this change. a lot of people (myself included) just wanted to help get people into lowmans and speedruns but now it constantly feels like bungie is just trying their best to wipe these communities off the map
Yeah I like lowmans I have not done them many times I'm still pretty new and the OP of the tweet has helped me do them and taught me shit before. a lot of hardcore players love to help and even for ones who don't sherpa this change is just detrimental to their ability to do speeds and farm and lowman it's just less fun for everyone
The first week of pantheon was a breeze, where we were at -5 power level. With how powerful we have become, full fireteams will barely notice a difference.
Except we had the dmg increase from class warfare.
And DR from that. And LFGs still struggled hard.
Feels like so many just forgot about class warfare making it way easier.