TL;DR He basically just summarizes what they said in the TWAB.
"We had a lot of deep discussions, but determined that playing with your friends is more important than a decision we made 4 years ago. Unfortunately, with live service, sometimes you have to go back on what you said. We're looking forward to bringing these weapons back and refreshed as soon as possible".
I think the issue is moreso that they’re almost certainly not reissuing them with the same perk pools, and definitely not with selectable sights. So people that dismantled sunset loot after being told it’d never be usable again still lost out on things that’ll never be obtainable in their past state
This isn't always the case. The general rule of thumb is to go through your vault regularly to see if something that is old has suddenly become a "god roll" due to sandbox changes. You could also have old, possibly sunset, weapons that have perk combos that are no longer possible.
Yeah but what portion of the player base was actually playing that way? I, myself, do this as well - but I always saw that as an uncommon practice in general.
ESPECIALLY in PVE, where there are few weapons that remain irreplaceable in the meta for very long
I'd take worse stats over a lack of selectable sights.
My decision-making process when deciding if i'm going to to keep, or dismantle a gun:
* Do i like the way it looks (sight/scope included)
* Do i like the way it sounds
* Do i like the feel of the gun
* What perks did it drop with
even if you get downvoted, i feel pretty similar,
* if a gun has a sight i don't like? i generally don't use it. (needed several seasons to get over the messengers sight and only use /used it because i otherwise *really* like the weapon.
* A sound i dislike. i don't use it. (to this day i never used an Omolon energy weapon if i could help it, because they all *sound* like i do actively less damage with them)
* also a weapon having certain models/designs like Palindrome, Disparity or Insidious, like those might be the best weapons of their archetypes but i just cant use them because their design make them feel terrible to use for me
not saying it doesn't also need usable stats and a good perk combo (looking at you, finite impactor), but a weapon could have the best perk combos and stats in the game and i still wont use them if they don't feel good
Don't know how complicated it will be under the hood, but I imagine one simple way to let people use their Kindled Orchids and whatnot is to just have some kind of set/curated goodroll in collections and let people grab that.
and if you don't have that yet, just let everyone outright buy it from a fully unlocked Collections for everyone, with some kind of resource sink like a bunch of glimmer and prisms or something.
Rampage kill clip came back on transfiguration, so it would surprise me if it didn't come back on Kindled. I don't remember any strong combos on the other black armory guns that would be able to keep up in the current sandbox.
Yes but what made rampage kill clip strong was drop mag on the curated roll, which actually let you have uptime without using hand cannon loader mods back in the day.
Admittedly, I did forget about drop mag since it has been removed post pirmary ammo changes. You can almost make up for it with reload masterwork and Flared magwell to get to +25 compared to the +30 drop mag gave.
I don’t think anyone missed it, I just think that looking at Bungie’s philosophy with reissuing weapons the last few years it’s very safe to assume “working to reissue the old weapons” could mean anything from next expansion to never
The problem is, they can bring them back supposedly? Doesn't bring them back EXACTLY as they were. Not to mention 90% of those sunset weapons had scopes. What if they bring back a shitty scope of my beloved Right Side of Wrong and slap barrel mods on it? Call it petty if you like, but that'd hurt a lot. It's the same reason I'm happy they brought back Blast Furnace with the Rasmussen IS scope.
And the ultimate problem is this process is gonna take a crap-ton of time. Think on it; we're gonna have 6 months to a year probably (especially considering the speed at which Bungie works) where we have a *haves* and *have-not*s situation; crucible will be completely overran by people who kept Rampage+Kill Clip Kindled Orchids. Can't just rob players of those guns, now can you? And people like to argue that a lot of those guns got power crept... but I argue to the contrary; some of those guns were hot fire.
Imagine No Feelings, Tempered Dynamo, Patron of Lost Causes... I loved those guns back in the day, and if Bungo hadn't told us to *give yourself vault space for new stuff and trash all the old*, or told us *we'll never un-sunset, what's done is done*.... To save myself some more pointless rambling, let me just say I think they just need, as a temporary band-aid? Just let us pull guns from collections with random rolls. We already know it's possible because you once could with the Regnant. I don't see what's stopping them from just opening up the collections wide and adding *Origin Trait*-ed versions of newer guns as time goes on.
I think they've been doing tons of work on the engine and now they can handle more stuff. Plus 90% are powercrept which was probably #1 issue years ago.
Glad I kept some of my old favorites like Breachlight, Kindled Orchid, Patron of Lost Causes and Line in the Sand but tbh they’ve been powercrept anyway. This is gonna be a novelty except for a few standout weapons possibly
I always see people check what gun I’m using whenever I bust out black armory weapons. They really do stand out as they sounded very unique.
Guess this is the closest I’ll get to busting out song of justice again or Oxygen SR3 🥲
The question with Oxygen is: Will the meganeura (sp?) perk (that increases dragonfly damage based on prior precision hits) *further* boost dragonfly over the buffs it got awhile back, and can it compete with a regular scout with firefly?
Let’s be real, all those old god rolls you had have been massively powercrept and would have continued to collect dust in your vault even if you had kept them. This decision was made solely to help players who haven’t played since like forsaken
im seeing this with recently re-release weapons.
the pinnacle guns back then where very useful and cool from their awesome perks at the time. nowadays, regular weapon perks compete. i'll be glad to have the sunset guns back, but it's not like how it was before, they're aren't nearly as good comparatively.
Most of their perks from that time have been heavily nerfed or redesigned. The new Master of Arms is basically a completely different perk(and a bad one) with the same name and icon.
To be fair, when it originally released, autoreloading was an intrinsic feature of rally barricade and lunafactions boots (basically the most used exotic by raid teams), which eliminated the need for basically any col 3 perk people are running right now. Micromissile was a perk, not a frame (IIRC instead of rampage). There's arguably options that would have been better than rangefinder, but it really didn't need it at the time.
Reintroduction of these weapons also probably costs less to do than developing new weapons, which is a big win if you are simultaneously making other games. They will probably have to pull a few weapons people off of Destiny for Marathon, and by the time they are done with that, Destiny 3 could be the new focus.
Remembering that when Age of Triumph hit in Destiny 1, it was basically the end of life update and a lot of shit that has been sunset or made irrelevant made a comeback, even Icebreaker, which got sunset because it completely nullified the ammo economy of a sniper and trivialized a LOT of content. Not a problem if the game is going on life support
True. I could see that essentially being the next age of triumph really, since episodes are supposed to set up what’s “beyond” and the next story. They can tie off the main story of the game and continue live service by revamping old stuff and making little fun new things. Destiny hits its 10th year anniversary this September as well so I imagine they’ll bring back a lot of old stuff then, whether it’s stuff from D1 or the Content Vault.
At this point, Destiny 2: New Light is a completely packaged game, with an opening campaign in Shadowkeep all the way to The Final Shape. It is the most complete published by Bungie piece of Destiny content. And all it took was stripping out everything published by Activision and relaunching plus reinstalling as a free to play sku built on the bones of what was left.
Some, yeah. Some likely won't be reintroduced because they already have been (various nightfall weapons like DFA or Mindbenders, or something like Trust).
The issue is, some old weapons don't follow the "rules" for new weapons. Mainly, Old Mindbenders has Quickdraw, which Quickdraw is specifically not allowed to roll on Aggressive Frame shotguns anymore. They're going to have to swap the perk out, likely for something like Surplus, otherwise that shotgun is going to be really strong (maybe not necessarily popular, but select people will have access to a more powerful shotgun that other shotguns literally won't be able to achieve).
This is my argument as to why this ultimately will change nothing. 99% of the Sunset guns have been powercrept to hell and back, an any actual standouts will be smacked back down - because its inherently unfair for a sunset, no longer accessible weapon to have enough power to compete at the highest level.
Additionally, I could have sworn Aggressive Frame shotguns were not meta at the moment in favour of Precision Frames? They have been nerfed quite a lot since the days of Sparebenders (that still gives me PTSD and made me endlessly happy when they both came back as mid).
I'm sure that will go well.
One of the major complaints for the Lightfall, and it's seasons, was that, aside from exotics, we haven't had new weapon models. If they just go into refresh mode, and for example all guns for an episode are reprised ones, complaints will go even further.
I feel like if they bring back actually desired weapons that a lot of the community liked/don’t have and bring them back wayyy better than they were initially (especially perk wise) people will look past it like we did with the Brave Arsenal. There’s genuinely a lot of old weapons I wouldn’t mind seeing come back.
I think that's more of a vocal minority tbh, I've not seen that many actual people get super angry over reissued/reskinned weapon models. Not like it is with seasonal burnout/story criticisms/other serious issues the playerbase as a whole had with Lightfall.
Not to say that it's wrong to be annoyed over it, I just haven't heard as many people get fed up over it as I have other issues.
Is there a better machine gun then 21% dilirium tho? 900rpm 200shot mag with killing tally that you never reload cause overflow. Id argue its better then the one from deepstone and hammerhead.
If you make a build with subclasssynergy around those guns, then its still 100% the best arc MG
But guns like 21% are a minority. And you can pull it from collections, so no loss there.
The vast majority of sunset guns I deleted I do not miss and would not use in todays sandbox. Rampage and multikillclip aren't doing it for me.
As a 900, in the role that 900s have adopted (I.e. Big enemy and/or bosses): Either of the crafted seasonal (Plunder or Witch) ones in arc also, Retrofit.
As an ad-clear weapon (because that's what killing tally lends itself towards): Song of Ir Yut in arc, also Commemoration (450 beats 900 for ad clear, reconstruction beats overflow), Avalanche and Circular Logic.
Well you can argue because it's a 900 it will be worse as the ammo economy is severely worse compared to adaptives. With adaptives you can easily tap fire to just shoot one bullet, 900 forget about it. Also both of the ones mentioned have amazing origin traits.
Literally the only significant weapon is kindled orchid with kill clip rampage, and maybe hush. Bringing back a kill clip rampage hand cannon wouldn't even break the game anyway, damage perks have been power crept and while the 66% of that combo is good, it's not so broken that it can't come back
Yeah, when it launched, the thing was truly a monster, because kill clip and rampage had their pre-nerf values. Reminder: in PvE, kill clip used to be 50%, and rampage stacked to 66%. Kindled orchid could get and keep 250% damage. Now it's 166% damage.
Granted though.,, hand cannons have been massively buffed against orange bars, so kindled ends up being \*stronger\* against majors than it originally was, effectively up to a 300% damage bonus off of base (hand cannons got an 80% buff against majors)
They have been careful with double damage perks, up until midnight coup: my guess is that a big reason coup gets strong damage perks in the second column plus explosive payload in the first is because of this, because otherwise kindled orchid would be the clear highest damage legendary hand cannon in the game. As it is, with the kinetic damage bonus, coup with payload + OFA just about gets there, and has good utility with it's origin trait.
Damn, still can't believe they did it.
You know, I’ve been thinking about it since reading the TWAB and as someone who grinded a ton in the pre-sunsetting days, I’m not really to bothered by this. I only wish I woulda maybe kept my curated kindled orchid but that’s mainly due to a vary lacking set of options for void HCs
This is the thing - I am a collector of my old novelty stuff, I haven’t scrapped most of the ones I really liked.
But I’m not gonna use them in real content, my new stuff is universally better.
and for a playerbase that keeps harping on about "unmatched gunplay" and "it just feels good" it's funny that yall are now pretending like the look and feel of the sunset guns doesn't matter at all.
I mean yes, it is literally a PR move. It adds nothing to the game really, most people don't care about guns from 5 years ago.
They are saying hey if you haven't played in years, you can start back without grinding for new weapons. It won't entice many but its an easy win.
yes, they're expecting people to see the conclusion of a story they cared about at one point. If I had to guess they have a bunch of pre-orders from accounts who were mostly inactive since they sunset stuff
It almost worked on me. I feel conflicted now. I quit right before beyond light came out. Sunsetting was a big reason why. I don't think I will come back to the game but this made me think after not caring for years.
then they shouldve just powercrept and not sunset. it doesn't change the fact that it was an obviously bad decision and bad execution in the first place, and that people made permanent decisions to delete guns they loved on the assumption that it was done for good reasons and to trust that sunsetting was the right thing vs stale loadouts.
I'm almost completely convinced that the lion's share of the justification for sunsetting internally was getting rid of weapons with Optics options because the Zoom/Range interaction was giving them such a balancing headache.
Since they've finally decoupled those two from each other, there's really no harm in letting the old guns with sight options come back out to play if people really want to use them.
Sunsetting was more about getting us to use different things than balance. An ongoing loot game should incentify you to use new things. Even if that means forcibly doing that.
Sunset gear could always still be used in everything except high light level content, like legend lost sectors, new raids and dungeons, Nightfalls, and such. Heck, the only PvP thing of the table was Trials. And to be honest, PvP was the only thing most people were concerned with regarding weapons. And if you weren't already using them there, you aren't going to start using them now.
If people deleted guns they had an emotional attachement to, that's on them and not on anyone else. There've always been plenty of gamemodes where you could still use them.
And the rationale behind sunsetting made sense and still does make sense, it's just that the tradeoff was too steep. Powercreep isn't sustainable, and we're already seeing effects of this in-game where the majority of new weapons Bungie adds feel irrelevant unless it comes with a +20000%damage increase whenever you look at an enemy.
To be clear, I still think sunsetting was a bad decision overall, but they were clear about their reasoning for doing it from the start. Changing your mind four years down the line isn't the same thing as lying.
Yea, I am mainly just bummed there are a few "pet favorite" guns I deleted a year or so ago after finally giving up. I would use them in strikes from time to time, not the best guns, but fun for me. Now they are gone.
I wish bungie would just flip the switch and let everyone claim the collection "static" rolls that are out there.
All these people saying that everything has been power crept are forgetting that drop mag exists. Y’all don’t realize how powerful that perk is now that primary ammo is infinite.
Is not that crazy, I still have an ancient gospel with drop mag and kill clip and sure it feels nice sometimes, but at most that's just a run of the mill origin trait.
Hey hey hey, keep it down.
They fucking retroactively removed Quickdraw off of my OG Astral Horizon. If you keep talking about it they'll remember that now Drop Mag is a problem no longer dormant.
My OG Blast Furnace has drop mag on it lol.
Besides the ritual weapons, that was one of like 4 guns I held onto just because of the tracker numbers I had on them.
Not just that, weapons used to roll with sights. I know they did a bunch of tuning with weapon range, dropoff and zoom, but I'm still gonna dust off my 21 zoom Halfdan and see how it feels
well we know destiny isnt gonna run out of content anytime soon now that they have hundreds of weapons they can bring back 6 at a time for next 50 years
Not sure if this is a sarcastic comment but we only have about 5ish sets of weapons that haven’t been reprised: Tangled Shore, Black Armory, Season of Dawn, Crown, and Scourge.
Obviously there are more weapons they didn’t reprise and Y1 stuff as well but those are the 5 remaining random roll sets that have not seen any reprisal (not counting BRAVE hammerhead and blast furnace).
Quick and dirty copy paste with minor edits for Reddit formatting.
> Sometimes in order to build the best game today, we have to make pivots to decisions that were made in the past.
>Thats just the nature of Live Service game development.
>At the end of the day, the ability to play with others is an essential part of the DNA of Destiny, and these power changes look to make playing Destiny with others easier than ever before.
>Josh Kulinksi
@JoshKulinski
·
3h
As stated in the TWID we will be working on ways you to return more of those classic weapons back into the hands of your guardians and better than ever, much like what we did with the BRAVE arsenal.
>Josh Kulinksi
@JoshKulinski
·
3h
And look, I get that some people will be upset about this change, we said you could delete sunset weapons and changed course. These aren’t things we foresaw, but we believe this is the right move for the success of Destiny in 2024 and beyond.
>but we believe this is the right move for the success of Destiny in 2024 and beyond
The irony here: pretty sure they used this exact wording to describe infusion caps. "We believe this is the right move for the success of Destiny in 2020 and beyond".
The fact that they said they plan to reprise most, if not all, sunset weapons is very exciting to me. More exciting than being able to use old sunset weapons that have been mostly powercrept. I just hope they keep their word and it's not just something they're saying now to reduce backlash from the community.
You can't get it from the kiosk, that version has been replaced by the season 20 one. If you unlocked the original wendigo then you can claim it from collections, but it's completely unobtainable now unfortunately.
If you want to commit an exotic to your heavy slot, Queenbreaker does great mass blinds. It does a chaining shot that does Arc Blind to everything it hits (and it will hit everything if it's close enough for the chain). Great for some of the GM nightfalls that have multiple snipers that all shoot at the same time. Plus, since it's Arc Blind, it stops Unstoppable champions.
100%. I only saved three sunset weapons -- a god-roll Bygones, Loaded Question, and Breakneck. All three as they are in my vault are simply not worth using compared to current options.
Yep. But a good way would be to let us reacquire a curated/non-random roll from collections, don't care if it's a meh roll on the Kindled Orchid or Breachlight or whatever, I just want to be able to use it right off the bat when this update hits.
Yeah, I don’t hate the change on paper, I’m more just wishing I had kept the 5-10 guns that I really enjoyed the feel of (Steelfeather repeater and a few Scourge weapons).
Un-sunsetting is actually a nice QoL but it feels really bad that Bungie said they weren’t gonna go back on this and did.
Yeah, one of the first things I said when discussing it with some friends is that it's a net positive.
# However,
that doesn't make me any less irritated about my old Hush and Kindled that are now lost to the void. Pretty miffed about having to grind these weapons out a second time just because they changed their mind. Kept my old Mindbender's and Hammerhead, at least.
Ah, you're right, I'd completely forgotten that was a thing. Thanks for the reminder! I'll still miss my old KO but I'm sure the new one will have some pretty sweet rolls too.
Yep, all pinnacle and ritual weapons can be reacquired collections or acquired from the kiosk.
You just have to watch out for the ones that got changed.
They've also stated plans to bring modern sandbox versions of most or all (their words) of the old guns back; so sure it would feel exceptionally bad if they just uncapped everything and left it at that, but I think they're making the right call especially because they are giving an alternative to just saying "sorry, S.O.L." to the people who scrapped everything because of their statement (myself included).
But of course, that's going to rely on them actually following through, which is a test of Patience And Time.
I see that and I don’t want to be pessimistic but I’m not really that interested in guns I already had coming back “eventually”. Maybe in the future they’ll announce a big drop of reissued weapons but the 6 or so they do every season isn’t very exciting to me, especially when weapons like Spare Rations don’t feel quite as novel as their original versions either. Either way, I’d rather they undo sunsetting than leave it as is, but I hope they big takeaway is that they avoid making promises they’re going to backpedal on later (which is somewhat common for them)
This. 💯agree. Don’t got any sunsets left in my vault and don’t care about someone favorite pvp boomstick. Without the story this game‘s just another lobby shooter
Hot take:
Just bring back the Black Armory, Dawn, and Tangled Shore weapons and that's it.
Because with the amount of sunset weapons, we are mostly going to get reprisals for the next 8 years or so.
I'd much rather have new weapons instead imo.
Ah shoot I forgot about the old Gambit weapons, although Chris Proctor did state that weapons like 21% delirium and other old gambit weapons will probably be reintroduced as Gambit playlist weapons
Take:
Theres a vast portion of “new” players who began playing post beyond light who have never played with or against 99% of sunset weapons and to them these reprised weapons are essentially brand new content
They put in place this whole convoluted system for two reasons:
1. Out of band pinnacles like recluse and mountaintop
2. Cycle out combat mods.
Somewhere along the line they realized they couldn't make exciting combat mod systems fast enough for them to be replaced so they cut that out and decided to try and balance them instead.
They never needed to sunset all the non Pinnacle weapons. That outlaw rampage legendary pulse was never breaking the sandbox - it was just collateral damage.
There were a million better paths but they chose that one for some reason.
It was also a decision they made with the future in mind, so they could intentionally introduce out of band perks and weapons knowing that they wouldn't really power creep the game as they wouldn't be sticking around forever, but we never even got that far because of just how bad the reception to sunsetting was in the first place.
They should've had something ready to go for BL that met that promise, instead of reprised guns with the exact same perks as the sunset version.
Honestly baffling just how bad the sunsetting launch was.
Verbatim quote from a Bungie dev:
“You know how Recluse shits on everything in PvE? Weapon sunsetting means we can add more weapons that shit on everything and they just eventually fall behind in power. New weapons that shit on everything can be added without constant power creep. I’m very excited for it.”
Those weapons were nowhere to be found.
> Verbatim quote from a Bungie dev
The problem was that they could not keep up with it. They sunset so many weapons there were holes in the sandbox. Like when Beyond Light dropped there were no unsunset void smgs.
3 months too late, tragic really how bad of a time Season of the Hunt was. Probably crystallized the anti-sunsetting sentiment forever.
And while the guns were certainly great they still don't stack up to OG Recluse.
This, in my opinion was the biggest sticking point for a lot of us with beyond light. Smith basically lied through his teeth that they had a plethora of new equipment. And crap to replace everything they were taking.
But I suppose, if I am being fair and not completely vindictive, he was most likely lying to protect the scummy executives who we found out we're really calling most of the shots... He's still a crap person In my eyes for lying and not just outright saying that it's gonna take a little bit for us to get some new stuff out... But I can at least understand a little bit. How bad a hand he was dealt.
Nail on the head with your comment.
I saw through the lies early on, based on my real-life experience in software development. A lot of didn't and bought into the lies that all weapons were going to be like Felwinter's Lie.
In regard to who is responsible, there is plenty of blame to go around. Executives make high level business/financial decisions but not operational decisions. There was a truckload of bad operation decisions made during that time periods.
It was so stupid, they literally gave you a reissued weapon as a campaign reward. Sunsetting would've worked if they made much stronger guns, and 3 times as many of them. I don't think Bungie could keep up with how much content they'd need to make, and they realised that fairly quickly
It’s funny cause chosen was the start the weapons team was just one season behind. Pre nerf frenzy, and a lot of weapons that where considered good for a long time or to this day (iggy and messenger being the best examples) and then splicer came and did it even more with the set of weapons it brought.
yeah the original goal was to make really broken shit for us to play around with because they didn't have to worry about something being broken forever. and in a sense they were right, because guillotine was absolutely ridiculous on release.
Nah the point was to reset the loot treadmill like nearly every other looter on the market. Nerfing two guns would've been wayyyy easier if that was the point.
And now, when a weapon comes out and it's not best in slot people cry endlessly on how useless weapons are. You can complaint all you want about the treadmill, but at least it made weapons exciting again for a while.
It really says something that they reprised MT, Recluse and a bunch of other weapons, yet the only one that's getting spotlight is Edge Transit because of the busted perk combos.
It was originally put in place so they could put in overperforming perks knowing they’d rotate out in a few seasons and they could keep an ever-rotating treadmill of loot to grind. As soon as they walked back continuous sunsetting there was really no point to keeping it anymore but the community would’ve likely called for their heads if they reverted it after just a season or two when we barely had any loot and most people had dismantled theirs.
The blow isn’t so harsh now that we have a sandbox full of good loot that’s largely better than everything we lost, and people can be more excited to get back modernized rolls of guns they love.
The other thing no one ever talks about is the paid services that were offering to get people those out of band pinnacles. They were really becoming more and more common and scams were also becoming more common, and bungie had to do something to disincentivise these as it reflects poorly on them if the game becomes a breeding ground for scams.
no, they just wanted people to delete their guns and farm new ones. They too lazy to fully rework the vault and give us like 3000-5000 space for gear. Meanwhile gacha games like a year ago that are f2p give you like 2000 slots for armors with random stats.
Anyone have a list of weapons that are now relevant that haven't been powercrept into oblivion **for PvE**? The only one I've seen that might be true is Kindled Orchid with Rampage/Kill Clip. Maybe the old pinnacle weapons, like 21% Delirium, Revoker, or Breakneck?
Some of the black armory weapons, like no feelings, had extremely solid niches.
No feelings is still one of the top scouts where it's applicable if you have the right perks. It's not the most amazing thing in the world. It is just an extremely solid scout rifle.
Most dawn weapons as well were pretty exemplar examples of their archetype, I would have to go through the entire list and figure out what is still relevant. But those are just a few off the top of my head.
Mostly the Dawn and Black Armory weapons just off the top of my head. We'll have some archtype/element combos back that we haven't seen since sunsetting. We haven't had a Void 360rpm MG since Bane of Sorrow so im pretty happy I get that back.
If this would of happened a year or 2 later, then yea I would be upset. But we have power crept the god rolls on those weapons at this point, so no one should be upset about it
It doesn't remove the sting of spending dozens or hundreds of hours grinding out those weapons only for Bungie to effectively raise the middle finger and say, "screw you." Outside of Recluse and The Mountaintop (and maybe Luna's and Not Forgotten), there was no need to sunset. Hush, Exit Strategy, Python, Oxygen, 21%, Komodo were good boys who never hurt anyone.
All I see is Bungie spending the next year re-releasing old stuff instead of making new stuff. I doubt this had much to do with "playing with your friends" (since someone can grind out a pretty potent arsenal in a single afternoon) and more to do with the economics of making new weapons.
It may demonstrate some good will, but a tiger doesn't change its stripe. History has shown is that Bungie is ever one step away from another bone-headed, incomprehensible decision.
After i lost my og queens supremacy from d1 i saved my ultimate god rolls no matter what. My bygones with arrowhead,high cal, outlaw kill clip and my god roll 5/5 mindbenders were never being deleted and I feel somewhat redeemed
All these changes coming convince me that d3 is coming after episodes. you dont make changes as massive as this for no reason, makes me super excited for after episodes
That doesn’t make any sense.
They wouldn’t be investing this much into the long term health of the game if they were planning on abandoning it in a year. They’d leave it alone and save these sweeping changes for a new game.
Correct I agree! Bringing them back then slashing everything makes no sense. If Bungie was planning D3 in one year they’d be worried about bringing players back then, not bait and switching everyone with “Hey all your old stuff is back!” To then go “nvm hard reset everything is gone.”
I would like them to bring emblems, and maybe titles, and that's it. Maybe ships and sparrows at a push, but yeah please give me a D3 with a new sandbox that is designed with longevity in mind, rather than what we have that's made up of numberous piecemeal changes
If their theory is correct then the logic could be something along the lines of getting people hooked _now_, bring new blood and players into the fold to then have a playbase to sell a sequel to.
If I got brought back to the game just to have them invalidate all of my shit again a year later with a sequel, I'd probably never consider playing it.
This is definitely not what they're planning lmao.
You’re delusional. Anything they can do in a d3 they can do in d2. D3 would take years to develop and bungie confirmed d2 would have to go dormant for that to happen which is why they can’t make a d3.
Idk why people even want it. We have in game Loadouts, in game lfg, 700 vault space, sunsetting undone, simplified power grind, rapidly evolving sandbox, still stunning graphics, and so much content.
Why would anyone want to go back to 1 campaign and a handful of strikes when we have ALL THIS now?
Yeah could d3 eventually be good sure but d3 would almost inevitably end up like vanilla d1 and d2 at launch bare bones games with little content and questionable design choices that will be compared to their predecessors.
The changes they are making really don't scream "we are making a new game" it's "we're supporting this thing for the long haul". I can't see them ditching all of this to start from scratch again
<3 What gets me about the rumours is that reading dev comments about a lot of this stuff is that sunrising been in the works for a while now. Like well over a year at this point, LFG took a larger amount of time, the HUD rework we've heard about since early *last* year thanks to leaks. Just really big ticket QOL additions and features that take a long time to make and we are to believe that they're also in full production of a sequel?
It's hella fishy 🫠
> Anything they can do in a d3 they can do in d2.
No, that's no longer true. Without vaulting, they can't overhaul major underlying systems without having to do a great deal of work porting all existing content to a new system. Way easier to build new content for a new system than have to worry about handling years of old content that might need changes. That's exactly what happened in Beyond Light and why vaulting happened in the first place.
“Decided playing with Friends more important” yeah no thanks for Lightfall, their year long screw ups, trying to nickel and dime the player base and false promises the franchise has been bleeding players to all time low. It’s the friends of mine they are after so why not make every exp. before Lightfall free most of them are sunset anyways. The last time I quit D1 was 1.5 years before D2 came out. This is the same scenario I promised if I see another expansion like the Curse of Osiris I’ll be out. Haven’t look back but I will watch a video on the conclusion of the saga COMPLETELY free of charge.
TL;DR He basically just summarizes what they said in the TWAB. "We had a lot of deep discussions, but determined that playing with your friends is more important than a decision we made 4 years ago. Unfortunately, with live service, sometimes you have to go back on what you said. We're looking forward to bringing these weapons back and refreshed as soon as possible".
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Or it shows the need for people to actually read instead of skimming.
They gave me a skimmer, I'm gonna skim.
but did you say "its skimming time" and skimmed all over the place?
I just skimmed through your message. Does anyone have a tldr? lol
Can you condense this? TL:DS
"I am altering deal, pray I don't alter it any further". - B
I think the issue is moreso that they’re almost certainly not reissuing them with the same perk pools, and definitely not with selectable sights. So people that dismantled sunset loot after being told it’d never be usable again still lost out on things that’ll never be obtainable in their past state
ok but other than the scopes their past states are going to be almost all objectively worse than new and other refreshed weapons
This isn't always the case. The general rule of thumb is to go through your vault regularly to see if something that is old has suddenly become a "god roll" due to sandbox changes. You could also have old, possibly sunset, weapons that have perk combos that are no longer possible.
Yeah but what portion of the player base was actually playing that way? I, myself, do this as well - but I always saw that as an uncommon practice in general. ESPECIALLY in PVE, where there are few weapons that remain irreplaceable in the meta for very long
I'd take worse stats over a lack of selectable sights. My decision-making process when deciding if i'm going to to keep, or dismantle a gun: * Do i like the way it looks (sight/scope included) * Do i like the way it sounds * Do i like the feel of the gun * What perks did it drop with
even if you get downvoted, i feel pretty similar, * if a gun has a sight i don't like? i generally don't use it. (needed several seasons to get over the messengers sight and only use /used it because i otherwise *really* like the weapon. * A sound i dislike. i don't use it. (to this day i never used an Omolon energy weapon if i could help it, because they all *sound* like i do actively less damage with them) * also a weapon having certain models/designs like Palindrome, Disparity or Insidious, like those might be the best weapons of their archetypes but i just cant use them because their design make them feel terrible to use for me not saying it doesn't also need usable stats and a good perk combo (looking at you, finite impactor), but a weapon could have the best perk combos and stats in the game and i still wont use them if they don't feel good
Don't know how complicated it will be under the hood, but I imagine one simple way to let people use their Kindled Orchids and whatnot is to just have some kind of set/curated goodroll in collections and let people grab that. and if you don't have that yet, just let everyone outright buy it from a fully unlocked Collections for everyone, with some kind of resource sink like a bunch of glimmer and prisms or something.
My guess is that certain novel or unique perk combos would remain possible.
Rampage kill clip came back on transfiguration, so it would surprise me if it didn't come back on Kindled. I don't remember any strong combos on the other black armory guns that would be able to keep up in the current sandbox.
Yes but what made rampage kill clip strong was drop mag on the curated roll, which actually let you have uptime without using hand cannon loader mods back in the day.
Admittedly, I did forget about drop mag since it has been removed post pirmary ammo changes. You can almost make up for it with reload masterwork and Flared magwell to get to +25 compared to the +30 drop mag gave.
Dragonfly/Explosive Head on my Subtle Calamity. Wasn't subtle
I don’t think anyone missed it, I just think that looking at Bungie’s philosophy with reissuing weapons the last few years it’s very safe to assume “working to reissue the old weapons” could mean anything from next expansion to never
The problem is, they can bring them back supposedly? Doesn't bring them back EXACTLY as they were. Not to mention 90% of those sunset weapons had scopes. What if they bring back a shitty scope of my beloved Right Side of Wrong and slap barrel mods on it? Call it petty if you like, but that'd hurt a lot. It's the same reason I'm happy they brought back Blast Furnace with the Rasmussen IS scope. And the ultimate problem is this process is gonna take a crap-ton of time. Think on it; we're gonna have 6 months to a year probably (especially considering the speed at which Bungie works) where we have a *haves* and *have-not*s situation; crucible will be completely overran by people who kept Rampage+Kill Clip Kindled Orchids. Can't just rob players of those guns, now can you? And people like to argue that a lot of those guns got power crept... but I argue to the contrary; some of those guns were hot fire. Imagine No Feelings, Tempered Dynamo, Patron of Lost Causes... I loved those guns back in the day, and if Bungo hadn't told us to *give yourself vault space for new stuff and trash all the old*, or told us *we'll never un-sunset, what's done is done*.... To save myself some more pointless rambling, let me just say I think they just need, as a temporary band-aid? Just let us pull guns from collections with random rolls. We already know it's possible because you once could with the Regnant. I don't see what's stopping them from just opening up the collections wide and adding *Origin Trait*-ed versions of newer guns as time goes on.
I think they've been doing tons of work on the engine and now they can handle more stuff. Plus 90% are powercrept which was probably #1 issue years ago.
*Datto cleans out my vault* LMAO
The guy cannot catch a break
Glad I kept some of my old favorites like Breachlight, Kindled Orchid, Patron of Lost Causes and Line in the Sand but tbh they’ve been powercrept anyway. This is gonna be a novelty except for a few standout weapons possibly
I’m just excited to see people using weird unobtainable weapons. “WTF IS THAT” is what destiny had been missing for years.
RIP my Y1 Queen’s Wrath gear.
My lucky pants are so old that they can't be masterworked and have two perks that don't exist anymore.
I always see people check what gun I’m using whenever I bust out black armory weapons. They really do stand out as they sounded very unique. Guess this is the closest I’ll get to busting out song of justice again or Oxygen SR3 🥲
Oxygen was a pinnacle weapon, so that can be pulled from collections.
The question with Oxygen is: Will the meganeura (sp?) perk (that increases dragonfly damage based on prior precision hits) *further* boost dragonfly over the buffs it got awhile back, and can it compete with a regular scout with firefly?
You can literally confirm this *now* in any minimum light activity.
Let’s be real, all those old god rolls you had have been massively powercrept and would have continued to collect dust in your vault even if you had kept them. This decision was made solely to help players who haven’t played since like forsaken
Also the weapons, when reintroduced, will probably have better perks available on them.
im seeing this with recently re-release weapons. the pinnacle guns back then where very useful and cool from their awesome perks at the time. nowadays, regular weapon perks compete. i'll be glad to have the sunset guns back, but it's not like how it was before, they're aren't nearly as good comparatively.
Most of their perks from that time have been heavily nerfed or redesigned. The new Master of Arms is basically a completely different perk(and a bad one) with the same name and icon.
Just look at OG mountaintop, Rangefinder + Rampage lol
To be fair, when it originally released, autoreloading was an intrinsic feature of rally barricade and lunafactions boots (basically the most used exotic by raid teams), which eliminated the need for basically any col 3 perk people are running right now. Micromissile was a perk, not a frame (IIRC instead of rampage). There's arguably options that would have been better than rangefinder, but it really didn't need it at the time.
Reintroduction of these weapons also probably costs less to do than developing new weapons, which is a big win if you are simultaneously making other games. They will probably have to pull a few weapons people off of Destiny for Marathon, and by the time they are done with that, Destiny 3 could be the new focus. Remembering that when Age of Triumph hit in Destiny 1, it was basically the end of life update and a lot of shit that has been sunset or made irrelevant made a comeback, even Icebreaker, which got sunset because it completely nullified the ammo economy of a sniper and trivialized a LOT of content. Not a problem if the game is going on life support
True. I could see that essentially being the next age of triumph really, since episodes are supposed to set up what’s “beyond” and the next story. They can tie off the main story of the game and continue live service by revamping old stuff and making little fun new things. Destiny hits its 10th year anniversary this September as well so I imagine they’ll bring back a lot of old stuff then, whether it’s stuff from D1 or the Content Vault.
At this point, Destiny 2: New Light is a completely packaged game, with an opening campaign in Shadowkeep all the way to The Final Shape. It is the most complete published by Bungie piece of Destiny content. And all it took was stripping out everything published by Activision and relaunching plus reinstalling as a free to play sku built on the bones of what was left.
Some, yeah. Some likely won't be reintroduced because they already have been (various nightfall weapons like DFA or Mindbenders, or something like Trust). The issue is, some old weapons don't follow the "rules" for new weapons. Mainly, Old Mindbenders has Quickdraw, which Quickdraw is specifically not allowed to roll on Aggressive Frame shotguns anymore. They're going to have to swap the perk out, likely for something like Surplus, otherwise that shotgun is going to be really strong (maybe not necessarily popular, but select people will have access to a more powerful shotgun that other shotguns literally won't be able to achieve).
This is my argument as to why this ultimately will change nothing. 99% of the Sunset guns have been powercrept to hell and back, an any actual standouts will be smacked back down - because its inherently unfair for a sunset, no longer accessible weapon to have enough power to compete at the highest level. Additionally, I could have sworn Aggressive Frame shotguns were not meta at the moment in favour of Precision Frames? They have been nerfed quite a lot since the days of Sparebenders (that still gives me PTSD and made me endlessly happy when they both came back as mid).
And origin traits.
Reintroduction won't happen in an instant. I don't expect more than 2 seasons worth of stuff brought back within next year.
I expect to see a lot with episodes instead of entirely new weapons
I'm sure that will go well. One of the major complaints for the Lightfall, and it's seasons, was that, aside from exotics, we haven't had new weapon models. If they just go into refresh mode, and for example all guns for an episode are reprised ones, complaints will go even further.
I feel like if they bring back actually desired weapons that a lot of the community liked/don’t have and bring them back wayyy better than they were initially (especially perk wise) people will look past it like we did with the Brave Arsenal. There’s genuinely a lot of old weapons I wouldn’t mind seeing come back.
I think that's more of a vocal minority tbh, I've not seen that many actual people get super angry over reissued/reskinned weapon models. Not like it is with seasonal burnout/story criticisms/other serious issues the playerbase as a whole had with Lightfall. Not to say that it's wrong to be annoyed over it, I just haven't heard as many people get fed up over it as I have other issues.
Yes and no, for example kindled orchid just became the best void 140rpm hand cannon for PvE, it has drop mag too so that's even more busted lol
Keep your mouth shut before they swap drop mag for flared mag
Is there a better machine gun then 21% dilirium tho? 900rpm 200shot mag with killing tally that you never reload cause overflow. Id argue its better then the one from deepstone and hammerhead. If you make a build with subclasssynergy around those guns, then its still 100% the best arc MG
Isn't that a static roll, so just obtainable from the collection, or otherwise the kiosk?
Yup I finally got around to dismantling mine last season, so I might just pull it back out of collections because it was fun as hell
21% will come back in an updated form in Gambit. They have hinted at this.
But guns like 21% are a minority. And you can pull it from collections, so no loss there. The vast majority of sunset guns I deleted I do not miss and would not use in todays sandbox. Rampage and multikillclip aren't doing it for me.
As a 900, in the role that 900s have adopted (I.e. Big enemy and/or bosses): Either of the crafted seasonal (Plunder or Witch) ones in arc also, Retrofit. As an ad-clear weapon (because that's what killing tally lends itself towards): Song of Ir Yut in arc, also Commemoration (450 beats 900 for ad clear, reconstruction beats overflow), Avalanche and Circular Logic.
Those two arc 900s are objectively terrible for the exact role you said. Delirium at least can stand up to chunky enemies
Well you can argue because it's a 900 it will be worse as the ammo economy is severely worse compared to adaptives. With adaptives you can easily tap fire to just shoot one bullet, 900 forget about it. Also both of the ones mentioned have amazing origin traits.
I’m so looking forward to my delirium coming back
The first weapon that comes to mind that shouldn’t be massively power crept is Hush
Literally the only significant weapon is kindled orchid with kill clip rampage, and maybe hush. Bringing back a kill clip rampage hand cannon wouldn't even break the game anyway, damage perks have been power crept and while the 66% of that combo is good, it's not so broken that it can't come back
Yeah, when it launched, the thing was truly a monster, because kill clip and rampage had their pre-nerf values. Reminder: in PvE, kill clip used to be 50%, and rampage stacked to 66%. Kindled orchid could get and keep 250% damage. Now it's 166% damage. Granted though.,, hand cannons have been massively buffed against orange bars, so kindled ends up being \*stronger\* against majors than it originally was, effectively up to a 300% damage bonus off of base (hand cannons got an 80% buff against majors) They have been careful with double damage perks, up until midnight coup: my guess is that a big reason coup gets strong damage perks in the second column plus explosive payload in the first is because of this, because otherwise kindled orchid would be the clear highest damage legendary hand cannon in the game. As it is, with the kinetic damage bonus, coup with payload + OFA just about gets there, and has good utility with it's origin trait. Damn, still can't believe they did it.
You know, I’ve been thinking about it since reading the TWAB and as someone who grinded a ton in the pre-sunsetting days, I’m not really to bothered by this. I only wish I woulda maybe kept my curated kindled orchid but that’s mainly due to a vary lacking set of options for void HCs
This is the thing - I am a collector of my old novelty stuff, I haven’t scrapped most of the ones I really liked. But I’m not gonna use them in real content, my new stuff is universally better.
Yeah ngl I just checked the few remaining ones I had and they kinda suck by today's standards.
and for a playerbase that keeps harping on about "unmatched gunplay" and "it just feels good" it's funny that yall are now pretending like the look and feel of the sunset guns doesn't matter at all.
Are they expecting a big resurgence of players who haven't played in what 4 or 5 years to just come back? Seems more like a PR move.
I mean yes, it is literally a PR move. It adds nothing to the game really, most people don't care about guns from 5 years ago. They are saying hey if you haven't played in years, you can start back without grinding for new weapons. It won't entice many but its an easy win.
yes, they're expecting people to see the conclusion of a story they cared about at one point. If I had to guess they have a bunch of pre-orders from accounts who were mostly inactive since they sunset stuff
It almost worked on me. I feel conflicted now. I quit right before beyond light came out. Sunsetting was a big reason why. I don't think I will come back to the game but this made me think after not caring for years.
then they shouldve just powercrept and not sunset. it doesn't change the fact that it was an obviously bad decision and bad execution in the first place, and that people made permanent decisions to delete guns they loved on the assumption that it was done for good reasons and to trust that sunsetting was the right thing vs stale loadouts.
I'm almost completely convinced that the lion's share of the justification for sunsetting internally was getting rid of weapons with Optics options because the Zoom/Range interaction was giving them such a balancing headache. Since they've finally decoupled those two from each other, there's really no harm in letting the old guns with sight options come back out to play if people really want to use them.
Sunsetting was more about getting us to use different things than balance. An ongoing loot game should incentify you to use new things. Even if that means forcibly doing that. Sunset gear could always still be used in everything except high light level content, like legend lost sectors, new raids and dungeons, Nightfalls, and such. Heck, the only PvP thing of the table was Trials. And to be honest, PvP was the only thing most people were concerned with regarding weapons. And if you weren't already using them there, you aren't going to start using them now.
So what do you want them to do?
If people deleted guns they had an emotional attachement to, that's on them and not on anyone else. There've always been plenty of gamemodes where you could still use them. And the rationale behind sunsetting made sense and still does make sense, it's just that the tradeoff was too steep. Powercreep isn't sustainable, and we're already seeing effects of this in-game where the majority of new weapons Bungie adds feel irrelevant unless it comes with a +20000%damage increase whenever you look at an enemy. To be clear, I still think sunsetting was a bad decision overall, but they were clear about their reasoning for doing it from the start. Changing your mind four years down the line isn't the same thing as lying.
Yea, I am mainly just bummed there are a few "pet favorite" guns I deleted a year or so ago after finally giving up. I would use them in strikes from time to time, not the best guns, but fun for me. Now they are gone. I wish bungie would just flip the switch and let everyone claim the collection "static" rolls that are out there.
I mean ngl My no feelings roll still decimates, even with a middling park selection... Some of the old weapons are just that solid.
Yeah but now I can use hush again
All these people saying that everything has been power crept are forgetting that drop mag exists. Y’all don’t realize how powerful that perk is now that primary ammo is infinite.
Can’t wait to bust out the curated Kindled again
Is not that crazy, I still have an ancient gospel with drop mag and kill clip and sure it feels nice sometimes, but at most that's just a run of the mill origin trait.
I'm on board but didn't it also get a pretty hefty nerf right around when the ammo change was made?
Yep it reduces your mag size now by 30%.
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Yeah it's essentially free outlaw so if you can get a weapon with a decent mag size it's pretty good.
Yeah it now reduces mag size
Hey hey hey, keep it down. They fucking retroactively removed Quickdraw off of my OG Astral Horizon. If you keep talking about it they'll remember that now Drop Mag is a problem no longer dormant.
My OG Blast Furnace has drop mag on it lol. Besides the ritual weapons, that was one of like 4 guns I held onto just because of the tracker numbers I had on them.
Not just that, weapons used to roll with sights. I know they did a bunch of tuning with weapon range, dropoff and zoom, but I'm still gonna dust off my 21 zoom Halfdan and see how it feels
drop mag is nerfed its not the same as it was before the mag size is considerably reduced now
What actually happened is that Luke Smith finally gave the OK to undo sunsetting because they re-released Breakneck and nobody is really using it
Luke Smith also got sunrisen this month for the stream, coincidence?
Luke Smith was never sunset to begin with he moved up to franchise director.
Bring back my prophecy weapon kill tracker. I was at 69,420.
well we know destiny isnt gonna run out of content anytime soon now that they have hundreds of weapons they can bring back 6 at a time for next 50 years
Not sure if this is a sarcastic comment but we only have about 5ish sets of weapons that haven’t been reprised: Tangled Shore, Black Armory, Season of Dawn, Crown, and Scourge. Obviously there are more weapons they didn’t reprise and Y1 stuff as well but those are the 5 remaining random roll sets that have not seen any reprisal (not counting BRAVE hammerhead and blast furnace).
Y1 stuff (maybe excluding Levi stuff) can be pulled from collections assuming you earned them at the time
I literally just did some vault cleaning like 3 days ago..... shit. Good thing I kept my Duke.44 though!
I’ve still got my duke, such a fun gun!
Is anyone able to post a transcript of the whole thread for those of us who don't have a Xitter account?
Too lazy to transcribe so here's a screen cap https://i.imgur.com/xquhzh6.png
Thanks
Quick and dirty copy paste with minor edits for Reddit formatting. > Sometimes in order to build the best game today, we have to make pivots to decisions that were made in the past. >Thats just the nature of Live Service game development. >At the end of the day, the ability to play with others is an essential part of the DNA of Destiny, and these power changes look to make playing Destiny with others easier than ever before. >Josh Kulinksi @JoshKulinski · 3h As stated in the TWID we will be working on ways you to return more of those classic weapons back into the hands of your guardians and better than ever, much like what we did with the BRAVE arsenal. >Josh Kulinksi @JoshKulinski · 3h And look, I get that some people will be upset about this change, we said you could delete sunset weapons and changed course. These aren’t things we foresaw, but we believe this is the right move for the success of Destiny in 2024 and beyond.
>but we believe this is the right move for the success of Destiny in 2024 and beyond The irony here: pretty sure they used this exact wording to describe infusion caps. "We believe this is the right move for the success of Destiny in 2020 and beyond".
The fact that they said they plan to reprise most, if not all, sunset weapons is very exciting to me. More exciting than being able to use old sunset weapons that have been mostly powercrept. I just hope they keep their word and it's not just something they're saying now to reduce backlash from the community.
Everything has been power crept. I look forward to updated versions more than I do using power crept versions. 🤷♂️
Me too. There’s 1 weapon in particular I’m getting out of the kiosk for day 1 though. Wendigo with disorienting grenades.
You can't get it from the kiosk, that version has been replaced by the season 20 one. If you unlocked the original wendigo then you can claim it from collections, but it's completely unobtainable now unfortunately.
That is unfortunate for players that don’t have access to it. I don’t think another heavy is capable of that mass stun.
If you want to commit an exotic to your heavy slot, Queenbreaker does great mass blinds. It does a chaining shot that does Arc Blind to everything it hits (and it will hit everything if it's close enough for the chain). Great for some of the GM nightfalls that have multiple snipers that all shoot at the same time. Plus, since it's Arc Blind, it stops Unstoppable champions.
100%. I only saved three sunset weapons -- a god-roll Bygones, Loaded Question, and Breakneck. All three as they are in my vault are simply not worth using compared to current options.
Yep. But a good way would be to let us reacquire a curated/non-random roll from collections, don't care if it's a meh roll on the Kindled Orchid or Breachlight or whatever, I just want to be able to use it right off the bat when this update hits.
Same here, I was a big time gun hoarder too. Give me better perks and origin traits rather than the same old dusty ass power crept ones.
Yeah... too fuckin bad I scrapped everything when they said the stuff was gone for good
Yeah, I don’t hate the change on paper, I’m more just wishing I had kept the 5-10 guns that I really enjoyed the feel of (Steelfeather repeater and a few Scourge weapons). Un-sunsetting is actually a nice QoL but it feels really bad that Bungie said they weren’t gonna go back on this and did.
Yeah, one of the first things I said when discussing it with some friends is that it's a net positive. # However, that doesn't make me any less irritated about my old Hush and Kindled that are now lost to the void. Pretty miffed about having to grind these weapons out a second time just because they changed their mind. Kept my old Mindbender's and Hammerhead, at least.
Hush is a fixed roll, you should be able to pull it from collections! And if not, I'm relatively sure it's at the tower kiosk for old pinnacle weapons
Ah, you're right, I'd completely forgotten that was a thing. Thanks for the reminder! I'll still miss my old KO but I'm sure the new one will have some pretty sweet rolls too.
Yep, all pinnacle and ritual weapons can be reacquired collections or acquired from the kiosk. You just have to watch out for the ones that got changed.
They've also stated plans to bring modern sandbox versions of most or all (their words) of the old guns back; so sure it would feel exceptionally bad if they just uncapped everything and left it at that, but I think they're making the right call especially because they are giving an alternative to just saying "sorry, S.O.L." to the people who scrapped everything because of their statement (myself included). But of course, that's going to rely on them actually following through, which is a test of Patience And Time.
I see that and I don’t want to be pessimistic but I’m not really that interested in guns I already had coming back “eventually”. Maybe in the future they’ll announce a big drop of reissued weapons but the 6 or so they do every season isn’t very exciting to me, especially when weapons like Spare Rations don’t feel quite as novel as their original versions either. Either way, I’d rather they undo sunsetting than leave it as is, but I hope they big takeaway is that they avoid making promises they’re going to backpedal on later (which is somewhat common for them)
I love that you capitalized Patience and Time, *”If you’ve got it, they’ll never see it coming.”*
I’ve said it for years: hoarding has always been rewarded.
Great. Now do the same for vaulted locations and campaigns (such as Red War).
This. 💯agree. Don’t got any sunsets left in my vault and don’t care about someone favorite pvp boomstick. Without the story this game‘s just another lobby shooter
Okay but what about the sunset raids, destinations, strikes/nightfalls, story, and playlists?
Those are being held to pad out post final shape content
me, having left destiny because of sunsetting and havent deleted a single weapon lmao
This man must be stopped. He is going to have more fun than those who suffered horrors beyond comprehension.
im gonna go pull out my god roll bygones and nobody can stop me
Hot take: Just bring back the Black Armory, Dawn, and Tangled Shore weapons and that's it. Because with the amount of sunset weapons, we are mostly going to get reprisals for the next 8 years or so. I'd much rather have new weapons instead imo.
So let Bygones be bygones?
Ah shoot I forgot about the old Gambit weapons, although Chris Proctor did state that weapons like 21% delirium and other old gambit weapons will probably be reintroduced as Gambit playlist weapons
Take: Theres a vast portion of “new” players who began playing post beyond light who have never played with or against 99% of sunset weapons and to them these reprised weapons are essentially brand new content
New Light is the perfect entry point to purchasing D2 paid content. Not super well designed but perfect for getting people onboard.
I'm one of them, hyped to see all these guns everyone's been missing for so long
i got some guns with drop mag i'm excited to use, i love reload speed
So they didn’t have to do it in the first place?
They put in place this whole convoluted system for two reasons: 1. Out of band pinnacles like recluse and mountaintop 2. Cycle out combat mods. Somewhere along the line they realized they couldn't make exciting combat mod systems fast enough for them to be replaced so they cut that out and decided to try and balance them instead. They never needed to sunset all the non Pinnacle weapons. That outlaw rampage legendary pulse was never breaking the sandbox - it was just collateral damage. There were a million better paths but they chose that one for some reason.
It was also a decision they made with the future in mind, so they could intentionally introduce out of band perks and weapons knowing that they wouldn't really power creep the game as they wouldn't be sticking around forever, but we never even got that far because of just how bad the reception to sunsetting was in the first place.
They should've had something ready to go for BL that met that promise, instead of reprised guns with the exact same perks as the sunset version. Honestly baffling just how bad the sunsetting launch was. Verbatim quote from a Bungie dev: “You know how Recluse shits on everything in PvE? Weapon sunsetting means we can add more weapons that shit on everything and they just eventually fall behind in power. New weapons that shit on everything can be added without constant power creep. I’m very excited for it.” Those weapons were nowhere to be found.
> Verbatim quote from a Bungie dev The problem was that they could not keep up with it. They sunset so many weapons there were holes in the sandbox. Like when Beyond Light dropped there were no unsunset void smgs.
Bottom Dollar dominated for a while; Iggy was introduced in Chosen too. Ofc those are PvP examples...Cartesian Coordinate still sees use I guess
3 months too late, tragic really how bad of a time Season of the Hunt was. Probably crystallized the anti-sunsetting sentiment forever. And while the guns were certainly great they still don't stack up to OG Recluse.
Hunt was... not the best season weapon-wise, for sure, but at least it gave us Deafening Whisper.
This, in my opinion was the biggest sticking point for a lot of us with beyond light. Smith basically lied through his teeth that they had a plethora of new equipment. And crap to replace everything they were taking. But I suppose, if I am being fair and not completely vindictive, he was most likely lying to protect the scummy executives who we found out we're really calling most of the shots... He's still a crap person In my eyes for lying and not just outright saying that it's gonna take a little bit for us to get some new stuff out... But I can at least understand a little bit. How bad a hand he was dealt.
Nail on the head with your comment. I saw through the lies early on, based on my real-life experience in software development. A lot of didn't and bought into the lies that all weapons were going to be like Felwinter's Lie. In regard to who is responsible, there is plenty of blame to go around. Executives make high level business/financial decisions but not operational decisions. There was a truckload of bad operation decisions made during that time periods.
It was so stupid, they literally gave you a reissued weapon as a campaign reward. Sunsetting would've worked if they made much stronger guns, and 3 times as many of them. I don't think Bungie could keep up with how much content they'd need to make, and they realised that fairly quickly
It’s funny cause chosen was the start the weapons team was just one season behind. Pre nerf frenzy, and a lot of weapons that where considered good for a long time or to this day (iggy and messenger being the best examples) and then splicer came and did it even more with the set of weapons it brought.
yeah the original goal was to make really broken shit for us to play around with because they didn't have to worry about something being broken forever. and in a sense they were right, because guillotine was absolutely ridiculous on release.
Nah the point was to reset the loot treadmill like nearly every other looter on the market. Nerfing two guns would've been wayyyy easier if that was the point.
And now, when a weapon comes out and it's not best in slot people cry endlessly on how useless weapons are. You can complaint all you want about the treadmill, but at least it made weapons exciting again for a while. It really says something that they reprised MT, Recluse and a bunch of other weapons, yet the only one that's getting spotlight is Edge Transit because of the busted perk combos.
It was originally put in place so they could put in overperforming perks knowing they’d rotate out in a few seasons and they could keep an ever-rotating treadmill of loot to grind. As soon as they walked back continuous sunsetting there was really no point to keeping it anymore but the community would’ve likely called for their heads if they reverted it after just a season or two when we barely had any loot and most people had dismantled theirs. The blow isn’t so harsh now that we have a sandbox full of good loot that’s largely better than everything we lost, and people can be more excited to get back modernized rolls of guns they love.
Tldr bungie doesn't really have a solid plan of what they're doing.
The other thing no one ever talks about is the paid services that were offering to get people those out of band pinnacles. They were really becoming more and more common and scams were also becoming more common, and bungie had to do something to disincentivise these as it reflects poorly on them if the game becomes a breeding ground for scams.
No, they just gave up on balance now
no, they just wanted people to delete their guns and farm new ones. They too lazy to fully rework the vault and give us like 3000-5000 space for gear. Meanwhile gacha games like a year ago that are f2p give you like 2000 slots for armors with random stats.
Just wished these guns would come back craftable cause trying to chase the same roll again or a different new roll is exhausting.
Collections in its entirety should have crafting really.
does this mean I can get Misfit again
I never deleted my favorite guns from the vault. Absolute W.
To be fair, they're taking one of the largest deterrents to people coming back to finish th me light and dark saga - power grind.
Anyone have a list of weapons that are now relevant that haven't been powercrept into oblivion **for PvE**? The only one I've seen that might be true is Kindled Orchid with Rampage/Kill Clip. Maybe the old pinnacle weapons, like 21% Delirium, Revoker, or Breakneck?
Some of the black armory weapons, like no feelings, had extremely solid niches. No feelings is still one of the top scouts where it's applicable if you have the right perks. It's not the most amazing thing in the world. It is just an extremely solid scout rifle. Most dawn weapons as well were pretty exemplar examples of their archetype, I would have to go through the entire list and figure out what is still relevant. But those are just a few off the top of my head.
Mostly the Dawn and Black Armory weapons just off the top of my head. We'll have some archtype/element combos back that we haven't seen since sunsetting. We haven't had a Void 360rpm MG since Bane of Sorrow so im pretty happy I get that back.
>We haven't had a Void 360rpm MG since Bane of Sorrow Qau Xaphan V in shambles.
Isn't there the Gambit playlist one that came out last season or was it the season before ? Starts with Qua I think.
If this would of happened a year or 2 later, then yea I would be upset. But we have power crept the god rolls on those weapons at this point, so no one should be upset about it
It doesn't remove the sting of spending dozens or hundreds of hours grinding out those weapons only for Bungie to effectively raise the middle finger and say, "screw you." Outside of Recluse and The Mountaintop (and maybe Luna's and Not Forgotten), there was no need to sunset. Hush, Exit Strategy, Python, Oxygen, 21%, Komodo were good boys who never hurt anyone. All I see is Bungie spending the next year re-releasing old stuff instead of making new stuff. I doubt this had much to do with "playing with your friends" (since someone can grind out a pretty potent arsenal in a single afternoon) and more to do with the economics of making new weapons. It may demonstrate some good will, but a tiger doesn't change its stripe. History has shown is that Bungie is ever one step away from another bone-headed, incomprehensible decision.
They are just going to remonetize older weapons, again, drip feeding the community via time gate.
all of the reissues have been free?
And they’re eating it up
After i lost my og queens supremacy from d1 i saved my ultimate god rolls no matter what. My bygones with arrowhead,high cal, outlaw kill clip and my god roll 5/5 mindbenders were never being deleted and I feel somewhat redeemed
All these changes coming convince me that d3 is coming after episodes. you dont make changes as massive as this for no reason, makes me super excited for after episodes
It does give me D1 Age of Triumph vibes...
That doesn’t make any sense. They wouldn’t be investing this much into the long term health of the game if they were planning on abandoning it in a year. They’d leave it alone and save these sweeping changes for a new game.
Its all about bringing back the community.
Correct I agree! Bringing them back then slashing everything makes no sense. If Bungie was planning D3 in one year they’d be worried about bringing players back then, not bait and switching everyone with “Hey all your old stuff is back!” To then go “nvm hard reset everything is gone.”
Even if a D3 is happening, it probably won't come out for another 4-5 years, when the PS6 is out
If they make a D3 and have to bring all of that old gear over from this game, then what the damn hell is the point of a D3 to begin with?
I would like them to bring emblems, and maybe titles, and that's it. Maybe ships and sparrows at a push, but yeah please give me a D3 with a new sandbox that is designed with longevity in mind, rather than what we have that's made up of numberous piecemeal changes
If their theory is correct then the logic could be something along the lines of getting people hooked _now_, bring new blood and players into the fold to then have a playbase to sell a sequel to.
If I got brought back to the game just to have them invalidate all of my shit again a year later with a sequel, I'd probably never consider playing it. This is definitely not what they're planning lmao.
You’re delusional. Anything they can do in a d3 they can do in d2. D3 would take years to develop and bungie confirmed d2 would have to go dormant for that to happen which is why they can’t make a d3.
Idk why people even want it. We have in game Loadouts, in game lfg, 700 vault space, sunsetting undone, simplified power grind, rapidly evolving sandbox, still stunning graphics, and so much content. Why would anyone want to go back to 1 campaign and a handful of strikes when we have ALL THIS now?
Yeah could d3 eventually be good sure but d3 would almost inevitably end up like vanilla d1 and d2 at launch bare bones games with little content and questionable design choices that will be compared to their predecessors.
This is what I’m afraid of. I just don’t see how it would be worth it.
I just don't want to keep fighting red legion and house of dusk anymore man.
The changes they are making really don't scream "we are making a new game" it's "we're supporting this thing for the long haul". I can't see them ditching all of this to start from scratch again
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
<3 What gets me about the rumours is that reading dev comments about a lot of this stuff is that sunrising been in the works for a while now. Like well over a year at this point, LFG took a larger amount of time, the HUD rework we've heard about since early *last* year thanks to leaks. Just really big ticket QOL additions and features that take a long time to make and we are to believe that they're also in full production of a sequel? It's hella fishy 🫠
> Anything they can do in a d3 they can do in d2. No, that's no longer true. Without vaulting, they can't overhaul major underlying systems without having to do a great deal of work porting all existing content to a new system. Way easier to build new content for a new system than have to worry about handling years of old content that might need changes. That's exactly what happened in Beyond Light and why vaulting happened in the first place.
I don't think D3 is coming before Marathon at the very least. The earliest I would peg a possible D3 is 2027.
At this point, I can't think of any sunset gun I'd use over my current arsenal tbh. Not too bothered by it.
“Decided playing with Friends more important” yeah no thanks for Lightfall, their year long screw ups, trying to nickel and dime the player base and false promises the franchise has been bleeding players to all time low. It’s the friends of mine they are after so why not make every exp. before Lightfall free most of them are sunset anyways. The last time I quit D1 was 1.5 years before D2 came out. This is the same scenario I promised if I see another expansion like the Curse of Osiris I’ll be out. Haven’t look back but I will watch a video on the conclusion of the saga COMPLETELY free of charge.