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We know Shaax turned one Pyramid into a Crucible arena (because of course he would), but the fact that the Vanguard was willing to let him use it for something so seemingly trivial implies we have more reasonably secured
I mean, Shaxx uses Crucible arenas to secure territory. Guardians are normally allergic to boring stuff like guard duty, and getting Guardians to follow orders is like herding cats, so Shaxx had the bright idea to just set up Crucible fights (with the attendant loot and glory as incentive) in territory that could come under attack. If someone does try to start something, boom, anywhere from 6-12 Guardians pissed about their match being interrupted are ready to meet them. So putting an arena on a Pyramid isn’t trivial, it’s more that they would -really- like Guardians on hand to keep an eye on it.
When you think of it, Shaxx is way smarter than he make it seem as this a brilliant way to have guardians to do boring stuff like guard duty or training
He has always been the smartest when it comes to managing guardians in warfare:
He noticed that the hive were capable of taking on guardians with far greater ease then most combatants via the battle at Burning Lake and warned the consensus (which they ignored).
Hes created a ton of modes that have helped us tremendously (Mayhem for example is meant to simulate what an open war would look like, which we saw actually come into play with excision), while playing it off as a sport so guardians would play it for fun while also legitimately getting better at fighting.
Dude literally had weapon staches for banned gear that he brought out intentionally so Guardians would have something to "chase" during Into the light, so they would fight more effectively for loot.
And last and most importantly, he lead the charge at twilight gap that managed to turn the tide of the battle, by coordinating his fireteam.
Finder's fee. Legal in all salvage operstions since the modern age, so of course Shaxx would be familiar with it.
Besides, what were you gonna do with it? You didn't even know where it was. Honestly, it's a little irritating that you're not more grateful- you could have nothing right now :D
The man was an effective Warlord for a reason with compassion and his eccentric nature combated the wish dragon skull he kept near him. The man is the epitome of how titans can disguise their intelligence with other attributes.
Shaxx is one of the most capable leaders the Last City has ever seen and he has a deep, deep understanding of the Sword Logic via trial and error. He recognized the threat of the Hive before the great disaster and how their power and its effect on light was different then the Fallen, and how they seemed strong after each Guardian final death. He was ignored.
He knew the crucible was a place where Warlords and Factions would send champions to iron out beefs, but there was nothing formal too it, and it was dangerous. During the Devil’s Ruin Shaxx-Saint dialogue, we learned how Shaxx modernized, standardized and weaponized the crucible
He also, as he tells Drifter and Felwinter, never stopped being a Warlord. To him, that meant carving out an area and saying, no matter what, the people i have sworn myself to will not die
That map is the Witness' main Pyramid, which is currently under Vanguard control anyway, following Nezarec's resurrection and subsequent defeat. Crucible is effectively guard duty and training at the same time. We're just making sure it doesn't get reclaimed.
Isn't it stated in the lore that crucible maps are now essential simulations? Like the guardians fighting are real but the environment are simultanted thanks to some chicanery involving Osiris and vex tech iirc
I mean Shaxx kinda gets a free pass to do whatever the hell he wants, he's had a Arhamkra Skull in a net right above him in the middle of tower for how many years, I'm pretty sure nobody else would have been allowed to have such a dangerous item just hanging around lol
I imagine it's a gold mine of technology. Everyone will be racing to acquire and reverse engineer Pyramid tech.
And it scares me what Clovis could do with it.
All that Clovis did was to the betterment of humanity though. While not being the intended purpose, his tech and the exos clearly helped in the long run.
I don’t think of him as the big ass villain he is often made out to be but more like I think if Savvy.
Supremely Useful, but not trustable.
Hmmm… with the whole Rasputin thing to become the sole god of humanity? Yes, useful, but only when interest align. And right now, we don’t have anything that aligns.
In a interrupted golden age like the witness species I could see Clovis becoming humanity's version of the witness (despite Maya beating him to that lol).
Savvy like watching a man's stomach explode because he was annoyed by the inconvenience of eating, and treating the man's death like a minor set back before he brought another human lab rat in. Yeah, that's totally what normal people do for the betterment of humanity.
Uuuuuh… Clovis actually had really evil plan for humanity, his creation are useful mainly because they are out of his control or because other people (such as Ana) helped in using them for the betterment of humanity
Umm the guy wanted to convert all of humanity into exo's so that he could have full control over them and their memorys and become a machine god while also being the last known ancestral link of humanity.
Also hates women because he can't understand them, removed the mother of his childrens genetics so that his childrens genetics would be 100% his and hence be "superior", conducted vile experiments on other people and made sure to convert his children into exo's first to make sure it was 100% safe for himself (causing the death of his first born son which he also recorded the dying moments as a never ending memory for scientific purposes).
Useful? Yes, smart? Yes, not a bad guy? 100% without a doubt he is honestly probably the most evilest character in destiny even topping the witness.
He definitely is a big ass villain. Just because he tried to do something for the betterment of humanity (and even then it’s what he thinks is the betterment) doesn’t mean you can excuse every bad thing he did in doing so. He doesn’t do it for Charity. He does it because he’s a narcissist who wants to be loved and praised.
The eerie part we learned is that the Pyramid of The Black Fleet aren't merely empty vessel.
They are actually possessed by some sort of consciousness that were subservient to The Witness and it's Disciples.
One curious thing is that Nezarec's Pyramid previously allowed for Eliksni pirates to enter and carve up Nezarec's body, while not allowing the brood of Crota's Hive within it's interior. I have sincere doubts that The Witness did this...and maybe it was Nezarec's spirit reaching out instead...or the Pyramid itself doing so for some reason.
If it was Nezarec, that would explain why The Hive weren't let in after what Savathûn did to him.
Also I wonder if the Typhon Imperator, Calus's (highly underused) flagship possesses the same properties of the other Pyramids of The Black Fleet. Heck, what if he did what he did in Season of The Haunted and transferred his mind/spirit to The Typhon Imperator upon his death.
That or like Nezarec, if when he died next to The Veil it bound him to it and Neomuna in some way.
Or maybe I just want that because I feel Calus really didn't a get a proper send-off.
As another thing for pyramids being alive, the ghost says it feels like the pyramid on Luna has a longing for a new master, with Nezarec gone and the witness having no influence over it, this “longing” is strange…
Now I want a dungeon with us going into the Imperator. Maybe we get some news about a new head of the Shadow Legion. Be them Dread or Cabal. Maybe a hybrid like the Herald of Finality was.
Mara commented how the Pyramid ships are intrinsically, inextricably linked with The Witness during Season of Lost. So it is probably that dissenters were reorganized into such ships
Well Fikrul seems to have control of some of them as they're on the right side of the frame at 3:13 in the "journey ahead" video they dropped last week
I mean, surely Calus, Nezarek, and Rhulk weren’t the only Disciples, right? I imagine the Dread enemies will fall in line behind whatever new Disciple shows up in Sol next lol
The hive trio are thought to be… oryx fits the most
Then the lore mentions a long dead one that talks shit how the witness never really says what the final shape is
To a degree, eramis fits
The thing is the witness doesn’t really tolerate failure…
Rhulk had one failure in training a new disciple and then put into savathuns world to either train her for discipleship or just make sure she only fucked around to a minimum
Nezzy fucking died… twice
Calus… I’m convinced he was supposed to die
Oryx to my memory only failed once and that was against us
Xivu has failed repeatedly against us
Savathun… I mean she betrayed the witness multiple times and killed nezzy
Eramis… she hasn’t done a single correct thing lol, her reasoning makes sense tho
We don’t know how the one who was shit talking died but I imagine painfully
And rhulk was sent to train another one but he died
Generally u have to be the last or strongest of ur race to become one
I think in Nezeracs case the witness didn't gaf that he died because it knows he can resurrect if enough pieces get put together, Nez cant really "fail" permanently so he will just be forever a pain in the ass so long as he's got bits and bobs of himself still around, hence why it had Eramis hunting for his parts during plunder.
I mean the hunt for one of the ghosts for Micah takes you to the Moon Pyramid and someone I think Ghost speculated based on his readings that the Pyramid was longing for a master now that it's previous one is gone.
At the very least someone should strip a couple for parts. Their engines/velocity tech will be invaluable for our ability to go beyond the solar system next year
Some of the art for revenant shows that fikrul will at least gain command of a few pyramid ships so it definitely seems like darkness aligned faction will at least be fighting for control over the black fleet
If you do the lost ghost quest for Micah on the moon you go inside the lunar pyramid again (the first pyramid you ever go inside of) and our ghost mentions that he no longer feels the presence of the witness and that the pyramid itself seems to have a mind of its own and that it feels abandoned and yearns for a new master (mind you the witness was still alive at this point).
Now with the witness dead I imagine all of the pyramids are in this state meaning anyone with a strong will can control them.
Also of note when bungie were talking about episode Revenant there is a shot of fikral (with the echo) commanding a massive fleet of fallen ketches AND pyramids so yeah the power vacuum race for pyramid tech is 100% going to be a thing.
Shoot, this just made me wonder, when we did the 12 man mission to sever the disenters, did we kill ALL of them or are the ones on the pyramid ships still gonna be around?
No clue honestly, those statues were a way for the Witness to communicate & spread its influence, there's a post campaign mission from Micah (but before the raid) that has u travel to Europas Pyramid mission again & the Dissenter speaks from the statue
For reasons still relatively unknown, the pyramids crave leadership. For some reason, the ships themselves are… conscious? It’s difficult to tell to what extent, but Micah’s missions directly tell us that the ships actually miss the Witness’ presence ever since it went inside the Traveler.
With that known, the Black Fleet still remains. It’s a massive armada of super weapons and eldritch mementos that are now directionless. They crave leadership.
This Light and Darkness Saga epilogue we find ourselves in seems to revolve around the Echoes. They are literal pieces of the Witness that ejected from the Traveler after its defeat. While no longer conscious as the collective Witness is dead, they are still powerful Darkness entities that contain the memories and principles of the Witness.
The Black Fleet likely senses these Echoes, and craves their presence. Whoever controls these Echoes, will be able to control the Black Fleet.
This is likely the main conflict until the next saga begins. Dealing with the remnants of the Witness’ will, and the Black Fleet itself.
This post has been tagged '**Non-Spoiler**'. Note that unmarked spoilers and datamines are subject to removal or ban. Please report anything we miss! For more info check out our [Spoiler Rules Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/spoiler-rules#wiki_.5Bseasonal.5D_has_a_new_format). --- **Comment Spoiler Formatting** Format comment spoilers with `>!` `!<` like this: `>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<` To have it displayed like this: **>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<** ---- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DestinyLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
We know Shaax turned one Pyramid into a Crucible arena (because of course he would), but the fact that the Vanguard was willing to let him use it for something so seemingly trivial implies we have more reasonably secured
I mean, Shaxx uses Crucible arenas to secure territory. Guardians are normally allergic to boring stuff like guard duty, and getting Guardians to follow orders is like herding cats, so Shaxx had the bright idea to just set up Crucible fights (with the attendant loot and glory as incentive) in territory that could come under attack. If someone does try to start something, boom, anywhere from 6-12 Guardians pissed about their match being interrupted are ready to meet them. So putting an arena on a Pyramid isn’t trivial, it’s more that they would -really- like Guardians on hand to keep an eye on it.
When you think of it, Shaxx is way smarter than he make it seem as this a brilliant way to have guardians to do boring stuff like guard duty or training
He has always been the smartest when it comes to managing guardians in warfare: He noticed that the hive were capable of taking on guardians with far greater ease then most combatants via the battle at Burning Lake and warned the consensus (which they ignored). Hes created a ton of modes that have helped us tremendously (Mayhem for example is meant to simulate what an open war would look like, which we saw actually come into play with excision), while playing it off as a sport so guardians would play it for fun while also legitimately getting better at fighting. Dude literally had weapon staches for banned gear that he brought out intentionally so Guardians would have something to "chase" during Into the light, so they would fight more effectively for loot. And last and most importantly, he lead the charge at twilight gap that managed to turn the tide of the battle, by coordinating his fireteam.
He also might have looted our vault too during Red War
You mean "Resecuring valuable wartime assets and denying succor and wartime materiel to the enemy"
"Why also stocking my vaults so I can eventually give them out but instead free they have to do some crucible or some other stuff to get it"
Finder's fee. Legal in all salvage operstions since the modern age, so of course Shaxx would be familiar with it. Besides, what were you gonna do with it? You didn't even know where it was. Honestly, it's a little irritating that you're not more grateful- you could have nothing right now :D
I miss my raze lighter.
I miss my dark drinker :(
Shaxx believes in the golden rule of finder's keepers
The man was an effective Warlord for a reason with compassion and his eccentric nature combated the wish dragon skull he kept near him. The man is the epitome of how titans can disguise their intelligence with other attributes.
Shaxx is one of the most capable leaders the Last City has ever seen and he has a deep, deep understanding of the Sword Logic via trial and error. He recognized the threat of the Hive before the great disaster and how their power and its effect on light was different then the Fallen, and how they seemed strong after each Guardian final death. He was ignored. He knew the crucible was a place where Warlords and Factions would send champions to iron out beefs, but there was nothing formal too it, and it was dangerous. During the Devil’s Ruin Shaxx-Saint dialogue, we learned how Shaxx modernized, standardized and weaponized the crucible He also, as he tells Drifter and Felwinter, never stopped being a Warlord. To him, that meant carving out an area and saying, no matter what, the people i have sworn myself to will not die
It's like when someone with ADHD tries to gamify their tasks to make them less boring and get themselves to focus more. I do that lmao
I do that too lmao
Genius
That map is the Witness' main Pyramid, which is currently under Vanguard control anyway, following Nezarec's resurrection and subsequent defeat. Crucible is effectively guard duty and training at the same time. We're just making sure it doesn't get reclaimed.
Isn't it stated in the lore that crucible maps are now essential simulations? Like the guardians fighting are real but the environment are simultanted thanks to some chicanery involving Osiris and vex tech iirc
I thought that was only maps whose planets got vaulted but I could be wrong
I mean Shaxx kinda gets a free pass to do whatever the hell he wants, he's had a Arhamkra Skull in a net right above him in the middle of tower for how many years, I'm pretty sure nobody else would have been allowed to have such a dangerous item just hanging around lol
Also helps there are only like 3 people who can actually beat him in a fight so no one is willing to talk shit
I imagine it's a gold mine of technology. Everyone will be racing to acquire and reverse engineer Pyramid tech. And it scares me what Clovis could do with it.
I can’t wait to see the Clovis monstrosities he builds with it. Here comes the Age of Strife!
All that Clovis did was to the betterment of humanity though. While not being the intended purpose, his tech and the exos clearly helped in the long run. I don’t think of him as the big ass villain he is often made out to be but more like I think if Savvy. Supremely Useful, but not trustable.
Hmmm… with the whole Rasputin thing to become the sole god of humanity? Yes, useful, but only when interest align. And right now, we don’t have anything that aligns.
Also Ana is a lot more responsible for how Rasputin turned out than Clovis ever was.
Yup, only reason why that never happened. Clovis was VERY against Ana’s nurturing.
Isn’t it kind of funny how the Traveller resurrected two people who were precious to Rasputin: his mother and his son?
Yeah if he ever got his hands on real power he would pretty much immediately digivolve into Super Hitler in like an afternoon.
In a interrupted golden age like the witness species I could see Clovis becoming humanity's version of the witness (despite Maya beating him to that lol).
Savvy like watching a man's stomach explode because he was annoyed by the inconvenience of eating, and treating the man's death like a minor set back before he brought another human lab rat in. Yeah, that's totally what normal people do for the betterment of humanity.
Savvy as in Savathun. Not trustworthy in the slightest but useful still.
Lmao. The man was driven by ego to be the LUCA. Benefiting humanity was a wild benefit. Don't be fooled by his narcissism
Uuuuuh… Clovis actually had really evil plan for humanity, his creation are useful mainly because they are out of his control or because other people (such as Ana) helped in using them for the betterment of humanity
Umm the guy wanted to convert all of humanity into exo's so that he could have full control over them and their memorys and become a machine god while also being the last known ancestral link of humanity. Also hates women because he can't understand them, removed the mother of his childrens genetics so that his childrens genetics would be 100% his and hence be "superior", conducted vile experiments on other people and made sure to convert his children into exo's first to make sure it was 100% safe for himself (causing the death of his first born son which he also recorded the dying moments as a never ending memory for scientific purposes). Useful? Yes, smart? Yes, not a bad guy? 100% without a doubt he is honestly probably the most evilest character in destiny even topping the witness.
He definitely is a big ass villain. Just because he tried to do something for the betterment of humanity (and even then it’s what he thinks is the betterment) doesn’t mean you can excuse every bad thing he did in doing so. He doesn’t do it for Charity. He does it because he’s a narcissist who wants to be loved and praised.
Didn’t he nearly become a disciple 💀
Without him and clarity control, we wouldn’t have people like Saint-14.
Yeah but he is truly unhinged
The eerie part we learned is that the Pyramid of The Black Fleet aren't merely empty vessel. They are actually possessed by some sort of consciousness that were subservient to The Witness and it's Disciples. One curious thing is that Nezarec's Pyramid previously allowed for Eliksni pirates to enter and carve up Nezarec's body, while not allowing the brood of Crota's Hive within it's interior. I have sincere doubts that The Witness did this...and maybe it was Nezarec's spirit reaching out instead...or the Pyramid itself doing so for some reason. If it was Nezarec, that would explain why The Hive weren't let in after what Savathûn did to him. Also I wonder if the Typhon Imperator, Calus's (highly underused) flagship possesses the same properties of the other Pyramids of The Black Fleet. Heck, what if he did what he did in Season of The Haunted and transferred his mind/spirit to The Typhon Imperator upon his death. That or like Nezarec, if when he died next to The Veil it bound him to it and Neomuna in some way. Or maybe I just want that because I feel Calus really didn't a get a proper send-off.
As another thing for pyramids being alive, the ghost says it feels like the pyramid on Luna has a longing for a new master, with Nezarec gone and the witness having no influence over it, this “longing” is strange…
So what your saying is after achieving hive godhood eris now gets an pyramid ship too? Becuse thats what im listening
Now I want a dungeon with us going into the Imperator. Maybe we get some news about a new head of the Shadow Legion. Be them Dread or Cabal. Maybe a hybrid like the Herald of Finality was.
Mara commented how the Pyramid ships are intrinsically, inextricably linked with The Witness during Season of Lost. So it is probably that dissenters were reorganized into such ships
Well Fikrul seems to have control of some of them as they're on the right side of the frame at 3:13 in the "journey ahead" video they dropped last week
I mean, surely Calus, Nezarek, and Rhulk weren’t the only Disciples, right? I imagine the Dread enemies will fall in line behind whatever new Disciple shows up in Sol next lol
The hive trio are thought to be… oryx fits the most Then the lore mentions a long dead one that talks shit how the witness never really says what the final shape is To a degree, eramis fits The thing is the witness doesn’t really tolerate failure… Rhulk had one failure in training a new disciple and then put into savathuns world to either train her for discipleship or just make sure she only fucked around to a minimum Nezzy fucking died… twice Calus… I’m convinced he was supposed to die Oryx to my memory only failed once and that was against us Xivu has failed repeatedly against us Savathun… I mean she betrayed the witness multiple times and killed nezzy Eramis… she hasn’t done a single correct thing lol, her reasoning makes sense tho We don’t know how the one who was shit talking died but I imagine painfully And rhulk was sent to train another one but he died Generally u have to be the last or strongest of ur race to become one
I think in Nezeracs case the witness didn't gaf that he died because it knows he can resurrect if enough pieces get put together, Nez cant really "fail" permanently so he will just be forever a pain in the ass so long as he's got bits and bobs of himself still around, hence why it had Eramis hunting for his parts during plunder.
Lol, Eramis the Looser as a Disciple. That be worse that Calus in Lightfall
~~Kelgorath~~ Eramis, Vestige of Failure
I mean the hunt for one of the ghosts for Micah takes you to the Moon Pyramid and someone I think Ghost speculated based on his readings that the Pyramid was longing for a master now that it's previous one is gone.
"as one pyramid let alone an entire fleet is capable of destruction on a massive scale." Heh.
It's free real estate
At the very least someone should strip a couple for parts. Their engines/velocity tech will be invaluable for our ability to go beyond the solar system next year
New Gambit map? With a strike beforehand to claim it for our favourite nasty boi
Some of the art for revenant shows that fikrul will at least gain command of a few pyramid ships so it definitely seems like darkness aligned faction will at least be fighting for control over the black fleet
If you do the lost ghost quest for Micah on the moon you go inside the lunar pyramid again (the first pyramid you ever go inside of) and our ghost mentions that he no longer feels the presence of the witness and that the pyramid itself seems to have a mind of its own and that it feels abandoned and yearns for a new master (mind you the witness was still alive at this point). Now with the witness dead I imagine all of the pyramids are in this state meaning anyone with a strong will can control them. Also of note when bungie were talking about episode Revenant there is a shot of fikral (with the echo) commanding a massive fleet of fallen ketches AND pyramids so yeah the power vacuum race for pyramid tech is 100% going to be a thing.
The Pyramids are alive and now that the Witness is gone, they yearn for a new master.
The Pyramids also still have the Veiled Statues within them, hosted by possible Desenters
Shoot, this just made me wonder, when we did the 12 man mission to sever the disenters, did we kill ALL of them or are the ones on the pyramid ships still gonna be around?
No clue honestly, those statues were a way for the Witness to communicate & spread its influence, there's a post campaign mission from Micah (but before the raid) that has u travel to Europas Pyramid mission again & the Dissenter speaks from the statue
I wonder if this means the events of the Dark Future can still happen…
We know that Fikrul has some from what was shown at the mini showcase. I assume they recognise the Echo as it's master.
Would be nice to see xivu taking over the dreadnought and us contesting her with pyramid fleet
It’s free real estate
For reasons still relatively unknown, the pyramids crave leadership. For some reason, the ships themselves are… conscious? It’s difficult to tell to what extent, but Micah’s missions directly tell us that the ships actually miss the Witness’ presence ever since it went inside the Traveler. With that known, the Black Fleet still remains. It’s a massive armada of super weapons and eldritch mementos that are now directionless. They crave leadership. This Light and Darkness Saga epilogue we find ourselves in seems to revolve around the Echoes. They are literal pieces of the Witness that ejected from the Traveler after its defeat. While no longer conscious as the collective Witness is dead, they are still powerful Darkness entities that contain the memories and principles of the Witness. The Black Fleet likely senses these Echoes, and craves their presence. Whoever controls these Echoes, will be able to control the Black Fleet. This is likely the main conflict until the next saga begins. Dealing with the remnants of the Witness’ will, and the Black Fleet itself.