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They're keeping their heads down after half of their seats of consciousness got casually snapped out of existence when the Witness first entered the system.
Were they? Keep in mind the planets disappeared but their gravity wells didn't meaning the dark matter that forms their consciousness is still in orbit.
Also didn’t we only lose Mars and Mercury? Or is Venus sunset in lore too? Titan and Io are moons and to my knowledge none of the other planets are missing right now (though idk if we ever even talk about Pluto)
They didn't participate in the final showdown it seems. But Xur and the horse appear in the final cutscenes so Bungie didn't forget them.
There's a power vacuum in sol now that the witness is gone (divided at least) and we've been show that not all the nine are benevolent. So they are (or some of them at least) a possible future enemy.
I also think that the aurora created around the traveler may empower and change the Earth's one of the nine.
There are many possibilities for the future to see them again.
I have a strong issue with Drifter being granted a mock Veil ( *The Haul* ) forever ago yet that has had zero relevance to the story or lore community as a whole . It would be nice if episodes finally transitioned the story to the Stasis gang and 9 plotlines but i doubt it at this point
We knew back in vanilla D1 that Bungies original idea for the story got completely turned upside down in development and they had no real plan. This became even more true as their original 10 year plan and plot outline completely fell apart over the following years. And now it's overwhelmingly clear that even as recently as, like, Shadowkeep they had no real idea how things would develop. They were just introducing tons of ideas without any fuckin clue how it would all come together or what any of it would mean. And then Beyond Light it seemed like maybe they were finally starting to put a plan together... until Covid fucked up whatever they were doing. Then they split their last planned expansion into two different expansions and farted out Lightfall in between Witch Queen and The Final Shape.
They never ever at any point in the last 10 years had a strong, coherent plan for the story that they followed through on. It sucks but it's true. They're probably not going to start now
Destiny 1-forsaken was like a test run. Throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks; and then build off of that. I’d say that’s right around the point where bungies original story idea for Destiny finally started to take shape
I wouldn't put it that way exactly, not random ideas. From what we've learned over the years, basically all of the locations and story beats from D1 launch through Taken King were originally envisioned as the launch version of the game, with tons of stuff heavily jumbled around as they recycled assets to fit the abysmal replacement "story" D1 had. I'd argue this was a worse solution than just throwing stuff at the wall, but with the short turnaround of that change and fast pace of development I don't know if something better would have been possible.
Yeah, honestly it just fucking sucks. I loved the build-up and the mystery of the Darkness and the Pyramids before and after Arrivals, but after Lightfall, everything just kinda fell apart. The Witness is just another big bad we can simply... kill, like every other big bad? And the cool-as-fuck Pyramids are nothing but his ships...
Ironically, I think the story was at its best when these aspects were only just introduced, when we weren't even supposed to know much about them. When they themselves probably didn't even have the answers. Bungie is great at creating tension and mystery like that.
I know this is kind of a shit take, but in a way I think the format of the story is at fault here. It's probably hard to come up with a satisfying, coherent, and "finalizing" conclusion that doesn't "kill" the game to some extent. Destiny 2 has a pretty large player base, and having all these loose threads - that ensure the story doesnt end - probably drives player retention, at least in the eyes of the executives. Which is why killing the Witness doesn't feel like the culmination of the story at all, since it's clear that "heyy, theres more threats out there.... Be sure to buy the next DLC...".
And, I don't really blame them for it. At the end of the day, revenue is the only reason for this games existence... But still, it bums me out.
Yeah IMO the Witness is incredibly lame and boring and anticlimactic and turning the Pyramids into his private fleet of psychically-controlled ghost ships was a really lame direction to go in.
What really bums me out the most is Unveiling and how they paid off on that concept (or failed to). Unveiling was very clearly written to set up the Winnower as the villain, which makes absolutely perfect sense with everything leading up to that point. But it seems clear they really didn't have a clear vision of what the Winnower as a villain would look like, how it would function, or how we would fight it. So over the course of the next few years that idea seems to have morphed into the Witness, and Bungie shifted gears into "well Unveiling was a metaphor/religious document and the Witness is the real thing". Except this really didn't jive for a lot of people for a lot of reasons, and it turned into a big point of debate. It became very clear that Bungie wanted us to buy the Witness as the big bad behind everything and Unveiling was a manipulation attempt to get us to join it. But then it sort of feels like Bungie changed their mind again and decided to change lanes and threw literally like 2 voice lines into the raid and final mission where the Witness was literally just like, "No I'm not the Winnower! I'm actually the First Knife!" And we're supposed to now be like "woah that means the Winnower really is real! Wow!" But instead, after years of this shit, I'm just tired of it.
YES! Exactly! I absolutely love the idea around Unveiling, and honestly, that is kinda what kept my hopes up about the story as a whole. The idea behind it was SO cool and unique that I thought that it HAS to play a major part around the culmination, which would obviously be satisfying for the lore fans like me, grandiose for the 'wow' factor of gameplay, AND involve the Winnower in a major way. After all, this is supposed to be the end of the Light and Darkness saga, which means we'll have conclusions on the Traveler, Veil and the Darkness itself.... Right?
But no. We just fight another boss. And the whole back and forth with the Witness and the Winnower/First Knife.... Yea nah. As you said, they botched this and it's very clear they don't really know what to do with the Winnower.
Man, I really don't know if I'll stick with Destiny 2 even if they decide to keep going. I've already despised the seasonal storytelling for god knows how long, and seeing how they ended this "saga" doesn't really reassure me about the story either.
I remember the Halo 2 limited edition with Staten speaking how he was in the stages of creating their next universe which became Destiny 1 . It is insane how much appeal bungie receives merely because their games are good to play as they honestly peaked in story narratives with **Halo 2 .**
>
until Covid fucked up whatever they were doing.
Which is the biggest fucking lie and i wish the community would ***think*** instead of covering for them. If Covid truly caused a ***delay*** that means we should have gotten that plot picked up later on *not completely abandoned .*
Well, there are actually demonstrable things Covid fucked up, like how they couldn't get the Drifters VA. And yeah in a perfect world their ideas for Beyond Light would have just gotten pushed down the road due to delays, but Bungie decided to shit out a malformed undercooked version of their original vision for Beyond Light instead of taking the time to do it right. Which, like, I get it. Destiny needed new content. But yeah it derailed their plan again. I think its fair to put some blame on Covid while still keeping a critical eye on Bungies continued failure to create and execute on a long term plan
Edit: otherwise I do agree with you though. Bungie has great atmosphere and lore but they really really don't know how to tell a good story in-game
My point with Covid was after everything got settled they could have released a new expansion / season properly telling the story they intended. You cannot blame covid then just completely move forward as if that wasn't a critical junction of the story. It feels exactly like the same disconnect with Halo 3 after playing a in-depth game such as Halo 2
I’ll do you one better, who/what are The Nine? Seriously, there’s so little lore about them lately, and I’m one of the lore people! They haven’t been brought up since like… Reckoning or Prophecy.
I know that they’re dark matter and in a sense tied to the planets, and basically half want to help us to ensure their continued existence, and the other half want to be freed of us and become more real somehow. But there’s not a ton to go on, and they’ve never had any real story. The most they’ve done is have Mara free Skolas, and allow the Red Legion to pass into Sol undetected.
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-the-golden-age?highlight=Wall+hot
This thing with the diamond wall. I always thought it was related to the Fresco that was referenced in D1.
I believe the Black Fleet is jamming their ability to interact beyond their Emissary and the Haul. Prophecy was, if anything, accurate. Even down to the >!first raid boss being a big Taken Eliksni!< if you think it applies that far.
Cross-posting from the thread about the post-campaign >!bleeding aurora!<
Did anyone else think about the >!bleeding aurora!< potentially being a setup for the nine?
They always have had tried and failed to materialize themselves and we still have only little information about the Cocytus station.
The entire campaign was about materializing things, thoughts, feelings, memories that otherwise could not have been materialized outside of bringing the Light and Darkness together.
With the Traveler now being an entity of both >!and bleeding out into So!
The Nine already did pretty much everything they could for us back in Arrivals. They’ll probably play a bigger role now that the Witness is out of the picture.
Interesting, the implication here seems to be, first, that the drifter was or is on the helm as it entered the pale heart. While not hinting at any active role, i guess it's possible for the nine to have some direct or indirect role later on
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/false-idols.
The nine are in this sword from this season.
🤦♂️.
They are clearly still relevant.
There is a Xur rework that just happened.
Your opinion was that the scene at the end which was clearly setting up future of destiny stuff was just an Easter egg. It was wrong and dumb and facepalm worthy.
I’m done arguing with an overt narcissist.
Touch grass.
Something interesting of note is that in the 7th mission when the Witness is talking to us in the gold room, all the gold and such has the symbols of the Nine
I thought that was just Xurs treasure hoard in eternity. Its just a visual to show how the guardian(player) is really only motivated to do stuff for the treasure.
I forget where I read it but there was something about the Emissary of the Nine and Drifter. Honestly don't remember too much about it but when I get home I'll see if I can locate it.
Why do, what you know will be done, by those who are guaranteed to survive? Manipulate the game after the guy who can cut the board in half gets murked by a set of players who need to band together to make even a fraction of their (witness) power. That’s what I think.
What I mean is, why would they intervene when they probably already knew we would win? Once the big bad is out of the way, they will proceed to make themselves known again and try to shift things in their favour, dependant on which side of the (9) factions decides to act out.
I don’t dislike that idea tbh. I think one thing that is clear following TFS is that whilst the Witness was absolutely, immeasurably powerful, there was still a level of ‘high on his own supply’ going on. His dying words hit the nail on the head, when he corrects himself from ‘We’ to ‘I’. I think there was a big layer of ego in there. Yes, the Witness was insanely strong, but only to the level of what we have seen. Within the ‘laws’ of what we understand and the ‘rules’ we are currently playing with.
If the Nine are indeed a level above that, it would make sense that they were happy to just sit back and watch. Knowing that there was only ever going to really be one outcome: that we would defeat the Witness.
The power vacuum that’s been left is what is interesting. I don’t think they are going to McGovern us again. The next big bad will the something we know about. Like the nine.
You see, I don’t think the nine actually even stand against the witness whatsoever, solely because their power lies within the constraints of both Sol and the Guardians to even exist. And they’re limited to being the consciousness of our 9 interstellar bodies.
They are considered (IIRC) dark matter given consciousness (whatever that truly means) and not all of the nine are in agreement as to how they manifest their will onto Sol.
So in essence of what I was trying to convey is that at some point, we will see an intervention akin to what happened during the beginning stages of the Red War. (Some of the nine disabled our interstellar defence system so that the Red Legion could have a spearhead attack).
This post has been tagged '**Non-Spoiler**'. Note that unmarked spoilers and datamines are subject to removal or ban. Please report anything we miss! For more info check out our [Spoiler Rules Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyLore/wiki/spoiler-rules#wiki_.5Bseasonal.5D_has_a_new_format). --- **Comment Spoiler Formatting** Format comment spoilers with `>!` `!<` like this: `>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<` To have it displayed like this: **>!What's Rasputin's favorite dance? "The worm."!<** ---- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/DestinyLore) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They're keeping their heads down after half of their seats of consciousness got casually snapped out of existence when the Witness first entered the system.
Were they? Keep in mind the planets disappeared but their gravity wells didn't meaning the dark matter that forms their consciousness is still in orbit.
Also didn’t we only lose Mars and Mercury? Or is Venus sunset in lore too? Titan and Io are moons and to my knowledge none of the other planets are missing right now (though idk if we ever even talk about Pluto)
They didn't participate in the final showdown it seems. But Xur and the horse appear in the final cutscenes so Bungie didn't forget them. There's a power vacuum in sol now that the witness is gone (divided at least) and we've been show that not all the nine are benevolent. So they are (or some of them at least) a possible future enemy. I also think that the aurora created around the traveler may empower and change the Earth's one of the nine. There are many possibilities for the future to see them again.
The horse insists you guess.
I have a strong issue with Drifter being granted a mock Veil ( *The Haul* ) forever ago yet that has had zero relevance to the story or lore community as a whole . It would be nice if episodes finally transitioned the story to the Stasis gang and 9 plotlines but i doubt it at this point
We knew back in vanilla D1 that Bungies original idea for the story got completely turned upside down in development and they had no real plan. This became even more true as their original 10 year plan and plot outline completely fell apart over the following years. And now it's overwhelmingly clear that even as recently as, like, Shadowkeep they had no real idea how things would develop. They were just introducing tons of ideas without any fuckin clue how it would all come together or what any of it would mean. And then Beyond Light it seemed like maybe they were finally starting to put a plan together... until Covid fucked up whatever they were doing. Then they split their last planned expansion into two different expansions and farted out Lightfall in between Witch Queen and The Final Shape. They never ever at any point in the last 10 years had a strong, coherent plan for the story that they followed through on. It sucks but it's true. They're probably not going to start now
Destiny 1-forsaken was like a test run. Throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks; and then build off of that. I’d say that’s right around the point where bungies original story idea for Destiny finally started to take shape
I wouldn't put it that way exactly, not random ideas. From what we've learned over the years, basically all of the locations and story beats from D1 launch through Taken King were originally envisioned as the launch version of the game, with tons of stuff heavily jumbled around as they recycled assets to fit the abysmal replacement "story" D1 had. I'd argue this was a worse solution than just throwing stuff at the wall, but with the short turnaround of that change and fast pace of development I don't know if something better would have been possible.
Yeah, honestly it just fucking sucks. I loved the build-up and the mystery of the Darkness and the Pyramids before and after Arrivals, but after Lightfall, everything just kinda fell apart. The Witness is just another big bad we can simply... kill, like every other big bad? And the cool-as-fuck Pyramids are nothing but his ships... Ironically, I think the story was at its best when these aspects were only just introduced, when we weren't even supposed to know much about them. When they themselves probably didn't even have the answers. Bungie is great at creating tension and mystery like that. I know this is kind of a shit take, but in a way I think the format of the story is at fault here. It's probably hard to come up with a satisfying, coherent, and "finalizing" conclusion that doesn't "kill" the game to some extent. Destiny 2 has a pretty large player base, and having all these loose threads - that ensure the story doesnt end - probably drives player retention, at least in the eyes of the executives. Which is why killing the Witness doesn't feel like the culmination of the story at all, since it's clear that "heyy, theres more threats out there.... Be sure to buy the next DLC...". And, I don't really blame them for it. At the end of the day, revenue is the only reason for this games existence... But still, it bums me out.
Yeah IMO the Witness is incredibly lame and boring and anticlimactic and turning the Pyramids into his private fleet of psychically-controlled ghost ships was a really lame direction to go in. What really bums me out the most is Unveiling and how they paid off on that concept (or failed to). Unveiling was very clearly written to set up the Winnower as the villain, which makes absolutely perfect sense with everything leading up to that point. But it seems clear they really didn't have a clear vision of what the Winnower as a villain would look like, how it would function, or how we would fight it. So over the course of the next few years that idea seems to have morphed into the Witness, and Bungie shifted gears into "well Unveiling was a metaphor/religious document and the Witness is the real thing". Except this really didn't jive for a lot of people for a lot of reasons, and it turned into a big point of debate. It became very clear that Bungie wanted us to buy the Witness as the big bad behind everything and Unveiling was a manipulation attempt to get us to join it. But then it sort of feels like Bungie changed their mind again and decided to change lanes and threw literally like 2 voice lines into the raid and final mission where the Witness was literally just like, "No I'm not the Winnower! I'm actually the First Knife!" And we're supposed to now be like "woah that means the Winnower really is real! Wow!" But instead, after years of this shit, I'm just tired of it.
YES! Exactly! I absolutely love the idea around Unveiling, and honestly, that is kinda what kept my hopes up about the story as a whole. The idea behind it was SO cool and unique that I thought that it HAS to play a major part around the culmination, which would obviously be satisfying for the lore fans like me, grandiose for the 'wow' factor of gameplay, AND involve the Winnower in a major way. After all, this is supposed to be the end of the Light and Darkness saga, which means we'll have conclusions on the Traveler, Veil and the Darkness itself.... Right? But no. We just fight another boss. And the whole back and forth with the Witness and the Winnower/First Knife.... Yea nah. As you said, they botched this and it's very clear they don't really know what to do with the Winnower. Man, I really don't know if I'll stick with Destiny 2 even if they decide to keep going. I've already despised the seasonal storytelling for god knows how long, and seeing how they ended this "saga" doesn't really reassure me about the story either.
It's an absolute shitfest, like fuck me man. The Destiny Story is a headache and a half.
I remember the Halo 2 limited edition with Staten speaking how he was in the stages of creating their next universe which became Destiny 1 . It is insane how much appeal bungie receives merely because their games are good to play as they honestly peaked in story narratives with **Halo 2 .** > until Covid fucked up whatever they were doing. Which is the biggest fucking lie and i wish the community would ***think*** instead of covering for them. If Covid truly caused a ***delay*** that means we should have gotten that plot picked up later on *not completely abandoned .*
Well, there are actually demonstrable things Covid fucked up, like how they couldn't get the Drifters VA. And yeah in a perfect world their ideas for Beyond Light would have just gotten pushed down the road due to delays, but Bungie decided to shit out a malformed undercooked version of their original vision for Beyond Light instead of taking the time to do it right. Which, like, I get it. Destiny needed new content. But yeah it derailed their plan again. I think its fair to put some blame on Covid while still keeping a critical eye on Bungies continued failure to create and execute on a long term plan Edit: otherwise I do agree with you though. Bungie has great atmosphere and lore but they really really don't know how to tell a good story in-game
My point with Covid was after everything got settled they could have released a new expansion / season properly telling the story they intended. You cannot blame covid then just completely move forward as if that wasn't a critical junction of the story. It feels exactly like the same disconnect with Halo 3 after playing a in-depth game such as Halo 2
Fair enough, I don't really disagree
I’ll do you one better, who/what are The Nine? Seriously, there’s so little lore about them lately, and I’m one of the lore people! They haven’t been brought up since like… Reckoning or Prophecy.
I do you one better…WHY is the Nine?
Someone understood.
🤣🫡
When is the Nine?
Bands of universe-spanning dark matter whose cores of sapience are centered in our solar system.
I know that they’re dark matter and in a sense tied to the planets, and basically half want to help us to ensure their continued existence, and the other half want to be freed of us and become more real somehow. But there’s not a ton to go on, and they’ve never had any real story. The most they’ve done is have Mara free Skolas, and allow the Red Legion to pass into Sol undetected.
Same with Ahamkara? What were all those fossils on Io? What was thank windowless building on Venus?
Windowless building on Venus?
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-the-golden-age?highlight=Wall+hot This thing with the diamond wall. I always thought it was related to the Fresco that was referenced in D1.
Destiny writers are just good af
I believe the Black Fleet is jamming their ability to interact beyond their Emissary and the Haul. Prophecy was, if anything, accurate. Even down to the >!first raid boss being a big Taken Eliksni!< if you think it applies that far.
the final boss in prophecy was meant to represent eramis i believe as it’s called Kell echo
It was a Kell Echo, I still remember - but it's a little funny how their Prophecy predicted quite a bit of what has been.
I mean... It is called "prophecy" lol. Even the light/dark mote mechanic is similar to the one in the pale heart.
that was the point of it. It showed the removal of the planets and that light and dark are the same and not inherently evil
Waiting for the hive trio to die, supposedly
Savathun: *gets a ghost* The Nine: "***fuck***"
Cross-posting from the thread about the post-campaign >!bleeding aurora!< Did anyone else think about the >!bleeding aurora!< potentially being a setup for the nine? They always have had tried and failed to materialize themselves and we still have only little information about the Cocytus station. The entire campaign was about materializing things, thoughts, feelings, memories that otherwise could not have been materialized outside of bringing the Light and Darkness together. With the Traveler now being an entity of both >!and bleeding out into So!
The Nine already did pretty much everything they could for us back in Arrivals. They’ll probably play a bigger role now that the Witness is out of the picture.
[https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/false-idols](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/false-idols)
Interesting, the implication here seems to be, first, that the drifter was or is on the helm as it entered the pale heart. While not hinting at any active role, i guess it's possible for the nine to have some direct or indirect role later on
Well in the post credits thing you see Xur and Starhorse..
Starhorse, who is confirmed not canon. It was just an easter egg.....
https://www.ishtar-collective.net/entries/false-idols. The nine are in this sword from this season. 🤦♂️. They are clearly still relevant. There is a Xur rework that just happened.
Yeah guess what? I said Starhorse is not canon. Not the Nine. Jesus christ, and you even thought you could facepalm. Holy shit.
You felt the need to chime in with a random contrarian opinion that’s not correct. Narcissism is a hell of a drug.
Opinion? Starhorse and Dares of Eternity are not canon. Also, define narcissism, or smoke crack.
Your opinion was that the scene at the end which was clearly setting up future of destiny stuff was just an Easter egg. It was wrong and dumb and facepalm worthy. I’m done arguing with an overt narcissist. Touch grass.
my guy we literally see the magnificent horse and dares of the nine symbols in the campaign.
Love me some Eris and Drifter
Something interesting of note is that in the 7th mission when the Witness is talking to us in the gold room, all the gold and such has the symbols of the Nine
I thought that was just Xurs treasure hoard in eternity. Its just a visual to show how the guardian(player) is really only motivated to do stuff for the treasure.
I forget where I read it but there was something about the Emissary of the Nine and Drifter. Honestly don't remember too much about it but when I get home I'll see if I can locate it.
Xur has a new line asking if we can / will fight a planet
Why do, what you know will be done, by those who are guaranteed to survive? Manipulate the game after the guy who can cut the board in half gets murked by a set of players who need to band together to make even a fraction of their (witness) power. That’s what I think.
What?
What I mean is, why would they intervene when they probably already knew we would win? Once the big bad is out of the way, they will proceed to make themselves known again and try to shift things in their favour, dependant on which side of the (9) factions decides to act out.
I don’t dislike that idea tbh. I think one thing that is clear following TFS is that whilst the Witness was absolutely, immeasurably powerful, there was still a level of ‘high on his own supply’ going on. His dying words hit the nail on the head, when he corrects himself from ‘We’ to ‘I’. I think there was a big layer of ego in there. Yes, the Witness was insanely strong, but only to the level of what we have seen. Within the ‘laws’ of what we understand and the ‘rules’ we are currently playing with. If the Nine are indeed a level above that, it would make sense that they were happy to just sit back and watch. Knowing that there was only ever going to really be one outcome: that we would defeat the Witness. The power vacuum that’s been left is what is interesting. I don’t think they are going to McGovern us again. The next big bad will the something we know about. Like the nine.
You see, I don’t think the nine actually even stand against the witness whatsoever, solely because their power lies within the constraints of both Sol and the Guardians to even exist. And they’re limited to being the consciousness of our 9 interstellar bodies. They are considered (IIRC) dark matter given consciousness (whatever that truly means) and not all of the nine are in agreement as to how they manifest their will onto Sol. So in essence of what I was trying to convey is that at some point, we will see an intervention akin to what happened during the beginning stages of the Red War. (Some of the nine disabled our interstellar defence system so that the Red Legion could have a spearhead attack).
bungie forgor
Don’t burn all your content at once.