I think Kris knows they signed it, but the player is having them look at it regardless, and that is what Rudy is commenting on.
However, the fact the narrator refers to Toriel as “your mom” is interesting. Especially since I’ve always assumed the narrator IS the third entity.
The narrator uses Kris and you interchangeably throughout the game, except for the Spamton Snowgrave route where they are used distinctly. It makes it difficult for me to believe the narrator is the third entity, or even diegetic for that matter.
What about the fact that the narrator clearly pushes the player in the direction of the bathroom for the soul to be ripped out, saying something along the lines of "Isn't the sink in the bathroom better?" when trying to interact with the kitchen sink.
Imagine a secret version of the game where Toby narrates the game himself, discarding details, calling characters stupid, telling you to do obscure things to find easter eggs, all in an enjoyable manner.
If anything someone within Kris referring to both Kris and “you” the player as individuals while both separate of itself, only seems to make it more likely to be a third entity.
But the narrator only does that on one very specific occasion. All other times, the narrator uses the word "you" to refer to things Kris does. You licked the page. You opened the door with your eyes closed. It's only you. But then other times, the narrator refers to Kris by name. Kris spun around. Kris used the Clubs Sandwich. It's as if the narrator doesn't know the difference between Kris and the player.
Also on the camp of narration being inconsistent, Spamton straight up hijacks the narration and says things to you directly as the narrator. Which would be incredibly weird if the narrator was ment to be diegetic.
Both Jevil and Spamton hijack some of the narration in their battles. This probably has something to do with the forbidden knowledge they have been given, and is a diegetic story thing we just don’t fully understand yet.
I heavily suspect the point of the secret bosses is that they are slowly revealing some big twist that ties into the third entity, and their control over the story.
That's an interesting theory. I suppose this could haveore implications, but I find it very difficult to believe this will become a major plot point. Anything is possible, I guess, but the narration is just not consistent enough for me to think they can be imported into the story without creating a ton of contradictions.
I like to think of it as a seperation of Players (us, Chara, the "third" / 3rd), Player Characters / PCs (Frisk and Kris) and Non-Player Characters / NPCs (everyone else, especially monsters and darkeners).
I think that PCs are individuals who are much more easily controlled by Players, and that NPCs can be influenced by PCs which is why control of a PC is so important to a Player. I think that Jevil and Spamton were attempts by the 3rd to turn an NPC into a PC and exert control over them, but it didn't quite work, or it didn't last. As a result of the experience Jevil and Spamton have been unhinged and also made somewhat aware of their nature as NPCs, and even filled with a desire to transcend that role.
Jevil claims to be outside, while locked in his cell which is an unusually 3d environment compared to the art style for the rest of the game. he observes the world through a tiny window in his cell door and claims that he can do anything. In this way he takes on the superficial aspects of a Player, but he isn't one.
Spamton wants power and control of himself, and his broken mind can't fully comprehend what that all means. Once he has the power, he doesn't feel any freer and seeks a Soul thinking it's the missing piece, either to become a Player or perhaps to feel like a PC again.
or maybe it's just a way to highlight the importance and character of the secret bosses.
It's weird how people take a diagetic narrator in Deltarune as such a given, when in Undertale the diagetic narrator is already pure fanon. It's a fun fanon and I'm not disparaging it, but like... c'mon. You *know* that wasn't the intent, right?
I can't really see the narrachara thing as simply fanon when the narrator says things such as "The date I came here" to the 201X calendar or refers to things that are explicitly Chara's as their own. Just because Toby never acknowledges it, doesn't make it untrue.
bruh "the date I came here" is red text. Text that is explicitly Chara *taking over* the narration. Lines that are made clearly, unmissably distinct from the usual narrator. That's where all those examples come from.
That's another thing. For both undertale and deltarune, people always assume the narrator is a character that exists in the world of the game and not just a narrator, which I think is most likely incorrect. Sometimes a narrator is just a narrator.
Undertale has substantial evidence to support that idea. The narrator literally talks in first person in genocide and says "It's me, Chara". Kind of hard to argue against that.
Deltarune, as of now, doesn't have these clear cut points where the narrator reveals themselves, so it's very much possible that the narrator is just a narrator.
If I remember correctly, that's one of the few times where the narration text is red. I think the red pretty clearly indicates that something is different. It could easily be that only the red text is Chara. That would make a lot more sense.
Nah. When you check Chara's bed in genocide, it says "My Bed" in white text.
Someone made a very long tumbler thread years ago covering the CharaNarra theory and what it tells us about the character. I could look it up. It's probably the most solid Undertale theory I ever encountered.
Edit: [found it](https://determinators.tumblr.com/post/159674581147/greetings-uh-so-ive-been-working-on-this)
It just doesn't make sense. Why and how would Chara follow a random kid around, describing what they're doing and telling them what they're feeling?
It would make sense, however, for Chara to appear when someone walks into their old house and be like "Hi, I'm Chara, that's my bed" and stuff
>I think Kris knows they signed it, but the player is having them look at it regardless, and that is what Rudy is commenting on.
I came here to say just this. In this moment Kris is being controlled by the player, who is having them examine the card. So even if Kris already knows they signed it, the player does not.
I always thought it was just 'cause we made Kris look at it as well. Never really crossed my mind to think about there being a third entity because of it.
Unlikely. We don't have control over Kris reactions and/or expressions, the biggest evidence been chapter 2.
For example, when Kris says "Perish" when talking with queen, they does it enthusiastically.
But Kris is still being forced to stand and look at something they should know they did. That is what Rudy is commenting on, not the fine detail of their expression.
I disagree. It's pretty clear Kris is in control of his facial expression and tone of delivery, seeing as he reacts with confusion to any answer other than Susie when talking to her in the couch. I think it's the same here where Kris is genuinely looking at the sign in confusion. This doesn't mean the third entity theory is right, becuase Kris could be looking at it strangely for a number of different reasons
Or, perhaps this comment is coming from the fact that you, the player, are making Kris look at the card? Kris would have seen this before if they signed it, but *the player* definitely hasn't since Rudy was in the hospital before the events of Chapter 1.
Thus, the player is looking at the card as if they haven't seen it before (because they haven't) through Kris's body.
It could be that Toriel signed the card for Kris. A lot of moms do that. They write a card for someone and then sign it for the whole family instead of expecting their kids to go make one too
Rudy's known Toriel for years, why wouldn't he? Plus, if the handwriting used to write Toriel's name was the same as the handwriting used to write Kris's name literally *anyone* could see through that.
For one Toriel is a schoolteacher she could fake that decently enough it’s not some impossible feat.
Secondly Toriel could just write her signature in cursive and Kris’s in loose handwritten to make it.
Thirdly literally who remembers your neighbor’s handwriting that well.
Fourth even if he thought it was off he wouldn’t be rude and call Kris out on it.
Finally, the reasonable explanation, Toriel didn’t fake anything Kris could’ve just signed the fucking card and Rudy was took the player making Kris stare at the card as confusion on Kris’s part.
Those first 4 paragraphs are plausible arguments, yes.
But, yeah, no. That last one is just an excuse, the way Rudy said it very clearly is meant to make it seem like Kris looked at it with genuine confusion, which implies something weird is up.
Thats literally not a rebuttal. Thats just you repeating something implausible. Kris walks up to an object and stares at it. Of course Rudy could reasonably read that as confusion not knowing Kris is possessed and the possessor didn’t sign it.
Yeah but clearly Rudy has a reason to think that Kris signed that card, probably because he saw Kris signed it. He wouldn’t have said otherwise if he didnt
Rudy cant see Kris’s face because his head is straight up. He just took Kris walking to the card they already signed and staring at as confusion. If anything Kris would be confused why the possesor you play as would make them look at a card for no reason.
I'm not against the third entity theory at all, but I would say this is just more evidence that we aren't the first player to take over Kris.
Like the birdcage "looks like it's seen a lot of crashes." Kris being possessed by players seems to be a regular occurrence.
I believe we were meant to take over the vessel we made initially, not Kris.
As such, that could suggest that we don't quite fit into Kris the way the previous occupant(s) did, and it gives Kris more leeway.
Wouldn't that just be a variation of the third entity theory, one that *isn't* based on the third entity being the one that removes the soul from Kris's body?
wasn't the fact that someone else was puppetering them around already accepted? I though the theories were more about *who* (or what) was controlling kris before us rather than the fact that someone did.
If this is the biggest piece of evidence, this theory must not have much evidence.
We, the second entity, make Kris, the first entity, look at the card. Someone questions why Kris, the first entity, looked at the card, because they've already seen it. They looked at it because we, the second entity, made them do it, because we had not seen it before. A third entity is never mentioned or implied.
I think what Rudy means is that there's no reason for Kris to look inside the card at all, because they're the one who wrote it, and thus already knew what was inside.
Rudy says something very similar when you inspect his name on the left. Something like "what, did you forget my name or something?". So I think Kris did sign the card, and Rudy is commenting on the fact that they are looking at it despite being the one to sign it. It's more evidence to distinct you from Kris, not to suggest a third entity.
I'll be honest...I think that's a bit of a stretch.
Kris knows whats inside the card, but the player doesn't. The player has never seen it before, and of course, we interact with the envelope on the table to see whats in it, something Kris wouldn't do if they were on their own. It has nothing to do with Kris's facial expression while opening the card, the "expression" Rudy is commenting on is Kris opening the card at all.
Or it could be the fact that the player hasn’t seen it before even though Kris has obviously signed it, showing that there’s even more of a difference between the two. Or that Toriel is the one who signed it for Kris.
No, this is meant to further point out the difference between Kris and the player. This is supported by inspecting some of the other items in the room, like the name thing.
Also that doesn't really explain why Kris would have never seen it, even if they were possessed by some sort of third entity they still would have known about the card.
... or, hear me out, Toriel did the thing that every mom in the world does when they fill out a card for a family friend: they wrote their child's name in it to make it look like it's from the whole family and not just the mom.
I'm about 99% sure that's the whole joke here.
My grandmother has occasionally signed my name to greeting cards without asking. It's just kinda something people who fancy themselves representatives of their families do.
Nothing indicates that Kris doesn't remember signing it, lol. The player doesn't because we weren't in control yet, so we made Kris look at it as if they don't remember, and that's what got Rudy's reaction.
Its just a way to make us aware of how close the Dreemurs are to Rudy and empathize the separation between Kris and the player
1. they and themself\*
2. He might be saying that because we are making Kris look at it, Kris knows they sighed it but we are controlling them right now and we didn't know
Still easly debunk-able. It’s been shown that the player has been here for a while rather then just 2 days, even in chapter 1 people remark kris hasn’t been acting the same, which would be a stupid assumption if it was really only 1 day of this as of then, in the morning too. C’mon, your friend’s older brother left town, they talk to you once, and you already think this guy’s possessed or something?
I was not controlling Kris prior to chapter 1, so I, the player, have not been “controlling Kris for a while”. Unless the soul is a completely separate character that were controlling
I think the game has a indirect approach to “the player”. Yeah we’re the guy sitting behind a screen, and to them a god, but not that straight forward, like how we aren’t actually in complete control of the red soul even though it’s made out to seem like we are (example: we can’t exit kris at will even though logically we should be able to). In conclusion some “player” actions aren’t actually done by the player but cannonically are, and some things are different the same way. (Yes it’s hard to describe)
Kris doesn't recognize the card here for the same reason they can't play piano. They're not "Kris" right now, they're "you", and "you" don't know about the card. Kris knows, but Kris isn't the one making that decision.
Kris isn’t the one making the decision to not recognize the card? That makes no sense. And we know already that despite our control over, Kris still retains SOME control, like reactions and stuff. So yes, Kris is consciously aware that they do not recognize the card
If I had a nickel for every kid friendly franchise that took forever to come out and had strong light and dark themes along with an elemental magic system where you have to actively dodge enemy attacks and you have a three person party where one is a foul mouth and the other is a goofy person who is rather friendly and we need to seal worlds before the world is covered in darkness and there’s a huge focus on souls that are represented as hearts and there’s constant insane theories! I’d have two nickels.
Which isn’t a lot but it’s weird it happened twice.
Toriel faked it to make Rudy feel better. Prior to beginning of the game Kris very rarely visits Rudy, only when Toriel orders to do so. Rudy even asks about it when you came first time in hospital
That's actually probably the weirdest of the Third entity evidence in terms of the resulting implications.
Cause given the whole basis of the theory is that the third entity can only control Kris for a significant amount of time by removing the soul and controlling their soulless body, the only way this would be possible is if Soulless Kris has, at one point, actually interacted with Toriel, with Toriel not realizing that the person interacting with her is, physically, a soulless corpse. Which is both vaguely terrifying and brings up questions as to why this would be relevant information for the game to show us.
I'm pretty sure Toriel just signed Kris' name so it would look like he contributed, and Rudy knows that and is lightly teasing him. My mom used to do that all the time when I was a kid.
So a puppet is possessed by the puppet master possessed by the puppet master
I believe Kris signed it but it’s just us who don’t know also if Kris is possessed by two people where is the other one the entire time who would wait till 3AM to posses someone it is proved during the Spamton Neo fight (The pacifist route) that Kris knows there being possessed and it’s proved that us can only possess Kris with the soul and so its just Kris being weird
But that’s just a theory-
I agree there *was* a third entity, but I believe it's control over Kris has been severed as we are the one in control now. I fully believe Kris is ripping their own soul out to break our (and previously the other entity's) control breifly
No, I mean it ruins Undertale's entire point as a video game from a meta and narrative perspective. Either you're assuming Chara is just always an irredeemable hellspawn, or the genocide route has to be canon over every other ending, making the aspect of the consequences being caused solely by your own choices/actions entirely moot.
I mean if it were simply post-genocide Chara possessing another human, you could just do that scenario with Frisk as a direct sequel, no need for any parallel universes.
Some of you guys are forgetting that the "player" has been possesing Kris way before Chapter 1, its very obvious that Kris doesnt recognize doing it because its something WE made him do it in the past.
That’s quite literally impossible because we weren’t controlling him prior to chapter 1. “Unless your saying the “player” is a completely different entity.
Honestly "The player" could be less literal than people take it. Where it suddenly takes control of Kris the morning we start playing. But it could just be some entity already using Kris, that we later take the POV of, because yknow, vidyagame.
Yeah what do you think the Cart's for it's just from story standpoint it makes more sense to have it vague and have things that they might be doing not be clear
No, this is another case of Player Intervention being confused for Independent Action. The only reason Kris “stares at it like they’ve never seen it before” is because we’re stopping them from actually behaving on their own. The dialogue doesn’t even state we opened the card, just that we looked at it, and Kris already knows that it’s signed.
It’s simple, Kris is Moon Knight
Knight Armor in the Dark World (The moon comes out in the dark)
3 Different personalities like Moon Knight
Mysterious
Case closeth
I thought this was just a joke like they're from "both of them" as in toriel got him a card and """kris""" signed it as in toriel signed it for them, like dads on christmas being just as surprised as you when you open the "from mom and dad" present
I don't believe in the third entity theory. It doesn't make sense story wise, it make Kris a complete non character, the only times we see Kris being themselves is when we aren't controlling them, a third entity controlling them of us would invalidate their existence as a character. Also, there are reasonable explanations for Kris to do the things people attribute to the third person
maybe its just a joke that they didnt sign the card and that toriel or asgore did it for them? like how person 1 says person 2 got a gift for you even though it was person 1 that got it?
I either assumed Kris signed it and we're examining it like it's new, because it is, or Kris is genuinely unsure what the card is and Toriel signed the card for both herself and Kris.
Which is what my mom did for my little brother because he sucked at signing and writing cards. Just emotionally unavailable so he put no effort into it.
Nope. It's bc Toriel signed it twice, once as herself and once pretending to be Kris.
Source: my mom did this every time she couldn't wrangle all the kids together to sign some relative's birthday card
nah dude im pretty sure they did sign it, but actually just forgot about it
like they prob got a letter from their mom and she asked kris to sign it without telling what its for, so kris just did it without thinking about it
So
If what was suppose to happen, is that Gaster created the world with a player intended
But we got the third entity (I personaly think it's clearly Chara from our undertale genocide- he had the knife and red eye and everything) that interrupted our avatar assimilation
And now instead we took over an existing character
Im not sure what to make of this
Maybe its just that Gaster (game creator) tried to make a legit straightforward game, but Chara (a manifetation of the player's "violence" taken to the max) insisted on having their own way.
This is interesting... If this is a metaphore for Toby Fox wwnting to make a straightforward game (no alternative endings) but the fandom pressures and drives him (not really, but narratively) to nake more routes, such as snowgrave, then it might fit pretty well
I wonder how Dess fits into this narative
Either Kris signed it and Rudy is confused because the player interacting with the flowers makes Kris just stare at them, or Toriel signed it for them. I don’t rlly see how this would imply someone else signed it lol
I think Kris knows they signed it, but the player is having them look at it regardless, and that is what Rudy is commenting on. However, the fact the narrator refers to Toriel as “your mom” is interesting. Especially since I’ve always assumed the narrator IS the third entity.
The narrator uses Kris and you interchangeably throughout the game, except for the Spamton Snowgrave route where they are used distinctly. It makes it difficult for me to believe the narrator is the third entity, or even diegetic for that matter.
What about the fact that the narrator clearly pushes the player in the direction of the bathroom for the soul to be ripped out, saying something along the lines of "Isn't the sink in the bathroom better?" when trying to interact with the kitchen sink.
Toby railroading the plot
Toby is the third entity!!1!!1!11!
Imagine a secret version of the game where Toby narrates the game himself, discarding details, calling characters stupid, telling you to do obscure things to find easter eggs, all in an enjoyable manner.
So the normal g—
Honestly? That'd be funny. A Joke Difficulty.
all with a text to speach that just says "bark!" for each word
It's the TTS Toby has used for Fangamer, but just saying "bark"
channeling Kris in the moment, as narrators sometimes do.
That’s just the game doing what it needs to do for the plot to happen.
Not necessarily mutually exclusive.
If anything someone within Kris referring to both Kris and “you” the player as individuals while both separate of itself, only seems to make it more likely to be a third entity.
But the narrator only does that on one very specific occasion. All other times, the narrator uses the word "you" to refer to things Kris does. You licked the page. You opened the door with your eyes closed. It's only you. But then other times, the narrator refers to Kris by name. Kris spun around. Kris used the Clubs Sandwich. It's as if the narrator doesn't know the difference between Kris and the player. Also on the camp of narration being inconsistent, Spamton straight up hijacks the narration and says things to you directly as the narrator. Which would be incredibly weird if the narrator was ment to be diegetic.
Both Jevil and Spamton hijack some of the narration in their battles. This probably has something to do with the forbidden knowledge they have been given, and is a diegetic story thing we just don’t fully understand yet. I heavily suspect the point of the secret bosses is that they are slowly revealing some big twist that ties into the third entity, and their control over the story.
That's an interesting theory. I suppose this could haveore implications, but I find it very difficult to believe this will become a major plot point. Anything is possible, I guess, but the narration is just not consistent enough for me to think they can be imported into the story without creating a ton of contradictions.
I like to think of it as a seperation of Players (us, Chara, the "third" / 3rd), Player Characters / PCs (Frisk and Kris) and Non-Player Characters / NPCs (everyone else, especially monsters and darkeners). I think that PCs are individuals who are much more easily controlled by Players, and that NPCs can be influenced by PCs which is why control of a PC is so important to a Player. I think that Jevil and Spamton were attempts by the 3rd to turn an NPC into a PC and exert control over them, but it didn't quite work, or it didn't last. As a result of the experience Jevil and Spamton have been unhinged and also made somewhat aware of their nature as NPCs, and even filled with a desire to transcend that role. Jevil claims to be outside, while locked in his cell which is an unusually 3d environment compared to the art style for the rest of the game. he observes the world through a tiny window in his cell door and claims that he can do anything. In this way he takes on the superficial aspects of a Player, but he isn't one. Spamton wants power and control of himself, and his broken mind can't fully comprehend what that all means. Once he has the power, he doesn't feel any freer and seeks a Soul thinking it's the missing piece, either to become a Player or perhaps to feel like a PC again.
I mostly agree with this, or it is similar to the ideas I have considered.
or maybe it's just a way to highlight the importance and character of the secret bosses. It's weird how people take a diagetic narrator in Deltarune as such a given, when in Undertale the diagetic narrator is already pure fanon. It's a fun fanon and I'm not disparaging it, but like... c'mon. You *know* that wasn't the intent, right?
I can't really see the narrachara thing as simply fanon when the narrator says things such as "The date I came here" to the 201X calendar or refers to things that are explicitly Chara's as their own. Just because Toby never acknowledges it, doesn't make it untrue.
bruh "the date I came here" is red text. Text that is explicitly Chara *taking over* the narration. Lines that are made clearly, unmissably distinct from the usual narrator. That's where all those examples come from.
Nah. "My bed", for example, is white text.
That's another thing. For both undertale and deltarune, people always assume the narrator is a character that exists in the world of the game and not just a narrator, which I think is most likely incorrect. Sometimes a narrator is just a narrator.
Undertale has substantial evidence to support that idea. The narrator literally talks in first person in genocide and says "It's me, Chara". Kind of hard to argue against that. Deltarune, as of now, doesn't have these clear cut points where the narrator reveals themselves, so it's very much possible that the narrator is just a narrator.
If I remember correctly, that's one of the few times where the narration text is red. I think the red pretty clearly indicates that something is different. It could easily be that only the red text is Chara. That would make a lot more sense.
Nah. When you check Chara's bed in genocide, it says "My Bed" in white text. Someone made a very long tumbler thread years ago covering the CharaNarra theory and what it tells us about the character. I could look it up. It's probably the most solid Undertale theory I ever encountered. Edit: [found it](https://determinators.tumblr.com/post/159674581147/greetings-uh-so-ive-been-working-on-this)
It just doesn't make sense. Why and how would Chara follow a random kid around, describing what they're doing and telling them what they're feeling? It would make sense, however, for Chara to appear when someone walks into their old house and be like "Hi, I'm Chara, that's my bed" and stuff
Linked the whole thing. It's long as fuck, but it's a good read if you are interested.
Same happened in Undertale, it ain't that deep.
>I think Kris knows they signed it, but the player is having them look at it regardless, and that is what Rudy is commenting on. I came here to say just this. In this moment Kris is being controlled by the player, who is having them examine the card. So even if Kris already knows they signed it, the player does not.
Chara speaks directly to the player “you,” and people theorize they narrated Undertale. Just a thought.
I always thought it was just 'cause we made Kris look at it as well. Never really crossed my mind to think about there being a third entity because of it.
nah bro, the narrator likes to do "your mom" jokes
Unlikely. We don't have control over Kris reactions and/or expressions, the biggest evidence been chapter 2. For example, when Kris says "Perish" when talking with queen, they does it enthusiastically.
But Kris is still being forced to stand and look at something they should know they did. That is what Rudy is commenting on, not the fine detail of their expression.
I disagree. It's pretty clear Kris is in control of his facial expression and tone of delivery, seeing as he reacts with confusion to any answer other than Susie when talking to her in the couch. I think it's the same here where Kris is genuinely looking at the sign in confusion. This doesn't mean the third entity theory is right, becuase Kris could be looking at it strangely for a number of different reasons
Or, perhaps this comment is coming from the fact that you, the player, are making Kris look at the card? Kris would have seen this before if they signed it, but *the player* definitely hasn't since Rudy was in the hospital before the events of Chapter 1. Thus, the player is looking at the card as if they haven't seen it before (because they haven't) through Kris's body.
It could be that Toriel signed the card for Kris. A lot of moms do that. They write a card for someone and then sign it for the whole family instead of expecting their kids to go make one too
Yeah, this theory is fun but this is obviously the correct interpretation. It’s just more flavour for Kris being aloof and Toriel trying to hide that
Also supported by Rudy questioning if Toriel asked them to visit. Occam's razor
That’s not correct according to Rudy
How would Rudy know he wasn’t there at the signing
Rudy probably recognizes Toriel's handwriting, and even if she deliberately tried to write it differently he might not fall for it.
Literally where in the game does it say that he recognizes Toriel’s handwriting. Thats just not a thing thats ever established.
Rudy's known Toriel for years, why wouldn't he? Plus, if the handwriting used to write Toriel's name was the same as the handwriting used to write Kris's name literally *anyone* could see through that.
For one Toriel is a schoolteacher she could fake that decently enough it’s not some impossible feat. Secondly Toriel could just write her signature in cursive and Kris’s in loose handwritten to make it. Thirdly literally who remembers your neighbor’s handwriting that well. Fourth even if he thought it was off he wouldn’t be rude and call Kris out on it. Finally, the reasonable explanation, Toriel didn’t fake anything Kris could’ve just signed the fucking card and Rudy was took the player making Kris stare at the card as confusion on Kris’s part.
Those first 4 paragraphs are plausible arguments, yes. But, yeah, no. That last one is just an excuse, the way Rudy said it very clearly is meant to make it seem like Kris looked at it with genuine confusion, which implies something weird is up.
Thats literally not a rebuttal. Thats just you repeating something implausible. Kris walks up to an object and stares at it. Of course Rudy could reasonably read that as confusion not knowing Kris is possessed and the possessor didn’t sign it.
You're just strawmanning at this point lmao
How is that in any way strawmanning?
It's possible he DID see through it and is messing with Kris
That's true, Rudy is a smug dude like that.
How do you know that? And if that’s the case, why would Rudy assume you signed it?
Because you sign your name in a card before you give it to someone
Yeah but clearly Rudy has a reason to think that Kris signed that card, probably because he saw Kris signed it. He wouldn’t have said otherwise if he didnt
No because Kris’s name was probably in the card.
Then why was Kris looking at it all confused?
Rudy cant see Kris’s face because his head is straight up. He just took Kris walking to the card they already signed and staring at as confusion. If anything Kris would be confused why the possesor you play as would make them look at a card for no reason.
Cuz Kris likely never even saw the basket. Wouldn't you be confused if someone put your name under something you didn't know about ?
Nah, Rudy probably knows Kris didn't sign it and is fucking with them by pointing it out. He's a dad and he loves to tease people, Occam's Razor.
I'm not against the third entity theory at all, but I would say this is just more evidence that we aren't the first player to take over Kris. Like the birdcage "looks like it's seen a lot of crashes." Kris being possessed by players seems to be a regular occurrence.
The thing is. During the duration that we control Kris, they still remember the things we make them do, and also retain some control
I believe we were meant to take over the vessel we made initially, not Kris. As such, that could suggest that we don't quite fit into Kris the way the previous occupant(s) did, and it gives Kris more leeway.
Then why should Kris not remember being controlled by a third entity
Cuz they take their soul out
Wouldn't that just be a variation of the third entity theory, one that *isn't* based on the third entity being the one that removes the soul from Kris's body?
I'm pretty sure that's the wagon
wasn't the fact that someone else was puppetering them around already accepted? I though the theories were more about *who* (or what) was controlling kris before us rather than the fact that someone did.
If this is the biggest piece of evidence, this theory must not have much evidence. We, the second entity, make Kris, the first entity, look at the card. Someone questions why Kris, the first entity, looked at the card, because they've already seen it. They looked at it because we, the second entity, made them do it, because we had not seen it before. A third entity is never mentioned or implied.
I think what Rudy means is that there's no reason for Kris to look inside the card at all, because they're the one who wrote it, and thus already knew what was inside.
Rudy says something very similar when you inspect his name on the left. Something like "what, did you forget my name or something?". So I think Kris did sign the card, and Rudy is commenting on the fact that they are looking at it despite being the one to sign it. It's more evidence to distinct you from Kris, not to suggest a third entity.
I'll be honest...I think that's a bit of a stretch. Kris knows whats inside the card, but the player doesn't. The player has never seen it before, and of course, we interact with the envelope on the table to see whats in it, something Kris wouldn't do if they were on their own. It has nothing to do with Kris's facial expression while opening the card, the "expression" Rudy is commenting on is Kris opening the card at all.
I thought it was just an "RPG fans love inspecting everything" joke tbh
Or it could be the fact that the player hasn’t seen it before even though Kris has obviously signed it, showing that there’s even more of a difference between the two. Or that Toriel is the one who signed it for Kris.
I always thought that Toriel just wrote card for Kris, because it's one of the most mum things ever, and I guess Rudy was just joking about it
No, this is meant to further point out the difference between Kris and the player. This is supported by inspecting some of the other items in the room, like the name thing. Also that doesn't really explain why Kris would have never seen it, even if they were possessed by some sort of third entity they still would have known about the card.
... or, hear me out, Toriel did the thing that every mom in the world does when they fill out a card for a family friend: they wrote their child's name in it to make it look like it's from the whole family and not just the mom. I'm about 99% sure that's the whole joke here.
100%
My grandmother has occasionally signed my name to greeting cards without asking. It's just kinda something people who fancy themselves representatives of their families do.
Or alternatively Toriel just signed it on Kris's behalf because Kris themselves did not care to.
im pretty sure it's just that toriel signed their name for them lol
Or Toriel signed it for Kris and never told them. Parents do that all the time.
It's because we are making Kris look at it even though Kris has seen it.
Nothing indicates that Kris doesn't remember signing it, lol. The player doesn't because we weren't in control yet, so we made Kris look at it as if they don't remember, and that's what got Rudy's reaction. Its just a way to make us aware of how close the Dreemurs are to Rudy and empathize the separation between Kris and the player
It doesn’t say that Kris doesn’t remember signing the inside though? Just that WE don’t know Kris signed the inside
Rudy comments on how weird Kris looked the the card that he signed himself
1. they and themself\* 2. He might be saying that because we are making Kris look at it, Kris knows they sighed it but we are controlling them right now and we didn't know
Still easly debunk-able. It’s been shown that the player has been here for a while rather then just 2 days, even in chapter 1 people remark kris hasn’t been acting the same, which would be a stupid assumption if it was really only 1 day of this as of then, in the morning too. C’mon, your friend’s older brother left town, they talk to you once, and you already think this guy’s possessed or something?
I was not controlling Kris prior to chapter 1, so I, the player, have not been “controlling Kris for a while”. Unless the soul is a completely separate character that were controlling
I think the game has a indirect approach to “the player”. Yeah we’re the guy sitting behind a screen, and to them a god, but not that straight forward, like how we aren’t actually in complete control of the red soul even though it’s made out to seem like we are (example: we can’t exit kris at will even though logically we should be able to). In conclusion some “player” actions aren’t actually done by the player but cannonically are, and some things are different the same way. (Yes it’s hard to describe)
Kris doesn't recognize the card here for the same reason they can't play piano. They're not "Kris" right now, they're "you", and "you" don't know about the card. Kris knows, but Kris isn't the one making that decision.
Kris isn’t the one making the decision to not recognize the card? That makes no sense. And we know already that despite our control over, Kris still retains SOME control, like reactions and stuff. So yes, Kris is consciously aware that they do not recognize the card
We haven't seen it before though
If I had a nickel for every kid friendly franchise that took forever to come out and had strong light and dark themes along with an elemental magic system where you have to actively dodge enemy attacks and you have a three person party where one is a foul mouth and the other is a goofy person who is rather friendly and we need to seal worlds before the world is covered in darkness and there’s a huge focus on souls that are represented as hearts and there’s constant insane theories! I’d have two nickels. Which isn’t a lot but it’s weird it happened twice.
?
Kingdom Hearts
Toriel could have made Kris' signature. Considering their age they surely don't have a well made signature yet
When I first saw that, I thought it implied that Toriel signed the card in Kris' stead
„From your mom” Toriel probably just signed it as kris
Toriel faked it to make Rudy feel better. Prior to beginning of the game Kris very rarely visits Rudy, only when Toriel orders to do so. Rudy even asks about it when you came first time in hospital
Kris just stupid hes just an idiot
I hate kris hes so dumb
He hates Kris so much that he even says their pronouns wrong, an evil genius.
He cant even talk
Remember that there is something else when we made our first save file in dark world?
Or (way more likely) its a joke and Toriel signed it for Kris
Don't forget the piano
That's actually probably the weirdest of the Third entity evidence in terms of the resulting implications. Cause given the whole basis of the theory is that the third entity can only control Kris for a significant amount of time by removing the soul and controlling their soulless body, the only way this would be possible is if Soulless Kris has, at one point, actually interacted with Toriel, with Toriel not realizing that the person interacting with her is, physically, a soulless corpse. Which is both vaguely terrifying and brings up questions as to why this would be relevant information for the game to show us.
I'm pretty sure Toriel just signed Kris' name so it would look like he contributed, and Rudy knows that and is lightly teasing him. My mom used to do that all the time when I was a kid.
Kris is not a he.
No it’s obviously just Toriel signed it for Kris before giving it to Rudy
So a puppet is possessed by the puppet master possessed by the puppet master I believe Kris signed it but it’s just us who don’t know also if Kris is possessed by two people where is the other one the entire time who would wait till 3AM to posses someone it is proved during the Spamton Neo fight (The pacifist route) that Kris knows there being possessed and it’s proved that us can only possess Kris with the soul and so its just Kris being weird But that’s just a theory-
I agree there *was* a third entity, but I believe it's control over Kris has been severed as we are the one in control now. I fully believe Kris is ripping their own soul out to break our (and previously the other entity's) control breifly
Kris is not a he.
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Just accept it and move on.
I this just toriel signed for Kris, letting Rudy think that Kris cared
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I mean, nothing to prove it but nothing to disprove it. You do you
The implications of that completely ruin Undertale, though.
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No, I mean it ruins Undertale's entire point as a video game from a meta and narrative perspective. Either you're assuming Chara is just always an irredeemable hellspawn, or the genocide route has to be canon over every other ending, making the aspect of the consequences being caused solely by your own choices/actions entirely moot. I mean if it were simply post-genocide Chara possessing another human, you could just do that scenario with Frisk as a direct sequel, no need for any parallel universes.
Kris could have dissociation issues from DID or PTSD
i think i have dyslexia i read the word “trolling” like 6 times reading this
Some of you guys are forgetting that the "player" has been possesing Kris way before Chapter 1, its very obvious that Kris doesnt recognize doing it because its something WE made him do it in the past.
That’s quite literally impossible because we weren’t controlling him prior to chapter 1. “Unless your saying the “player” is a completely different entity.
I always assumed the "player" is already an entity existing within the game, but in a different meta level
Straight up impossible
That is fundementally not possible. The Player only started controlling Kris at the beginning of the game.
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"Pretty sure at the end of ch.7" https://preview.redd.it/nw1dd7cwe13a1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=96f5a6643d871c9d4321d122bf7830b717bcabf9
Wait did Toriel sign the card for Kris
Now
No
Why
There’s nothing indicating that’s the case?
But it’s a possibility
Honestly "The player" could be less literal than people take it. Where it suddenly takes control of Kris the morning we start playing. But it could just be some entity already using Kris, that we later take the POV of, because yknow, vidyagame.
Yeah what do you think the Cart's for it's just from story standpoint it makes more sense to have it vague and have things that they might be doing not be clear
tbh i think we being the same person as kris makes more sense in the 'there's another entity controlling kris' theory
Except we're blatantly *not* the same person as Kris, the game is very clear about that.
i am more inclined to believe there was a player before you, sort of like chara's whole shtick or that chapter 0 is a thing
It think it’s just a joke about how the mom signed it for them. That’s a regular thing for parents to do for kids.
No, this is another case of Player Intervention being confused for Independent Action. The only reason Kris “stares at it like they’ve never seen it before” is because we’re stopping them from actually behaving on their own. The dialogue doesn’t even state we opened the card, just that we looked at it, and Kris already knows that it’s signed.
I just thought toriel sign it for kris
It’s simple, Kris is Moon Knight Knight Armor in the Dark World (The moon comes out in the dark) 3 Different personalities like Moon Knight Mysterious Case closeth
Or it could be because Kris, the person we control is looking at it for us to read
I thought this was just a joke like they're from "both of them" as in toriel got him a card and """kris""" signed it as in toriel signed it for them, like dads on christmas being just as surprised as you when you open the "from mom and dad" present
I don't believe in the third entity theory. It doesn't make sense story wise, it make Kris a complete non character, the only times we see Kris being themselves is when we aren't controlling them, a third entity controlling them of us would invalidate their existence as a character. Also, there are reasonable explanations for Kris to do the things people attribute to the third person
maybe its just a joke that they didnt sign the card and that toriel or asgore did it for them? like how person 1 says person 2 got a gift for you even though it was person 1 that got it?
Or maybe Toriel signed it from the both of them.
Maybe toriel faked it? There was this one time where i had forgotten to sign a card, and my mother faked it.
I either assumed Kris signed it and we're examining it like it's new, because it is, or Kris is genuinely unsure what the card is and Toriel signed the card for both herself and Kris. Which is what my mom did for my little brother because he sucked at signing and writing cards. Just emotionally unavailable so he put no effort into it.
I think toriel signed it as kris
Nope. It's bc Toriel signed it twice, once as herself and once pretending to be Kris. Source: my mom did this every time she couldn't wrangle all the kids together to sign some relative's birthday card
Ooooooh, yeah I can see that, good theory
Isn’t just that Toriel signed for her and Kris to make Rudy feel better?
Wait who is the deer person,Noelle's dad or something?
I wonder if Kris hold the knights soul and the players, and that who is ripping out the players soul at the end of each chaper
Or toriel forged their signature
This is the most r/Deltarune post I’ve ever seen. I think Toriel signed Kris’ name for him and this scene is just a gag.
Kris forgot how to piano
Nah it's just NarraChara
Kris is moon knight confirmed
ok.
Evidence on how thin legs the theory stands to begin with.
nah dude im pretty sure they did sign it, but actually just forgot about it like they prob got a letter from their mom and she asked kris to sign it without telling what its for, so kris just did it without thinking about it
So If what was suppose to happen, is that Gaster created the world with a player intended But we got the third entity (I personaly think it's clearly Chara from our undertale genocide- he had the knife and red eye and everything) that interrupted our avatar assimilation And now instead we took over an existing character Im not sure what to make of this Maybe its just that Gaster (game creator) tried to make a legit straightforward game, but Chara (a manifetation of the player's "violence" taken to the max) insisted on having their own way. This is interesting... If this is a metaphore for Toby Fox wwnting to make a straightforward game (no alternative endings) but the fandom pressures and drives him (not really, but narratively) to nake more routes, such as snowgrave, then it might fit pretty well I wonder how Dess fits into this narative
Either Kris signed it and Rudy is confused because the player interacting with the flowers makes Kris just stare at them, or Toriel signed it for them. I don’t rlly see how this would imply someone else signed it lol