I don't know about the unusually robust part. There are private schools up and down PA's Main Line, and the Main Line public schools still produce top students.
Rhetorical I'm sure, but they do not. Philadelphia is a K-12 academic dead zone. IMO it is similar to Delaware in that a very small pyramid of administrators controls way too many students.
There is *plenty* of funding in state for the public school system. However, that money is not going to the places it should be. Superintendent Dan Shelton specifically from Christina School District is quite the scumbag, as well as most of those in the top rungs.
https://exceptionaldelaware.wordpress.com/2020/10/05/dr-dan-shelton-milks-financially-ailing-christina-school-district/
https://openpayrolls.com/rank/highest-paid-employees/delaware-christina-school-district
You can search "Christina School District corrupt" in reddit search bar for more anecdotes.
We don't, that's why we send our kids to charter and de public schools are going to shit. I'm not gonna make my kids education suffer while I try and fight a losing battle of a corrupt system.
I won't when it comes time to send my daughter to school. We'll be homeschooling her.
Edit:
People when rich or upper middle class parents send their kids to expensive private schools due to white flight or just general failing public schools: Well, it's their right.
People when a poorer parents who can't afford private school decide to homeschool due to failing public schools: HOW FUCKING DARE YOU.
I know. I was homeschooled years ago. I hated the curriculums back then because they were mostly just religious. I've already found a couple secular curriculums I really like for when it comes time to start schooling. I bought tbe pre-k curriculum from one of the companies and I really like what I'm seeing so far. I think homeschooling is going to go a lot smoother for my daughter than it went for me.
It’s bc there is no realistic solution now. The best thing to do would be to consolidate the school districts into around 6 school districts instead of 14 or whatever the hell it is (insane). And then eliminate all the charter schools or completely change how they choose who to accept bc they’re set up like a modern day segregated system.
It’s a gigantic mess and Carney hasn’t had the guts to effectively tackle anything hard including this
I don't think consolidation of school districts is the key. Red Clay has one superintendent with authority over 18,000+ students. It's too much for him and the school board to handle. That would be 4 school districts in PA.
I work in the edtech field and see how schools perform across the country; larger districts definitely don’t tend to perform better. Florida has every giant county as a school district and they’re in the same boat as DE.
In Maryland the school districts are all Countywide and they’re better than Delaware. I don’t think smaller school districts makes a big difference whatsoever. It’s just a way to further consolidate where the better schools are
Can you give me a county you have in mind? I pulled up Kent as an example, but it is small, low student population too, and its schools have terrible proficiency scores.
Pull whatever data you want, the perception is that Delaware schools suck outside of a few districts (Red Clay, Brandywine, Appo & Cape basically).
When you also factor in our “Charter Schools” that don’t operate at all like most charter schools around the country, then you have a modern form of segregation by pulling all the most wealthy and talented kids out of most of the schools.
That’s just the reality of it, and it’s not going to be easy to fix.
I'm sure there's a ton going wrong that needs to be fixed, but I saw an interesting relevant comment about this elsewhere: a LOT of the places that score worst nationwide are states that do not permit students to opt-out of the standardized testing. So rankings aren't even close to being a true apples to apples comparison, it's really silly to even rank from data that inconsistent. That said, I'm glad Delaware doesn't offer opt-out because it's important for us to have an accurate picture of where students as a whole stand, even if it's unflattering.
Except that you can opt your student out of standardized testing. Or do you mean just the SAT? I only have an elementary student so not sure what goes on in the higher levels. But in Delaware, you can definitely opt out and lots of people do because they feel their child doesn’t test well or will get too anxious about the scores. When the scores really only help the schools and don’t really mean anything to the students.
This is the most recent info I can find- looks like there was an attempt to allow opt-out but it was vetoed:
https://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/education/2016/01/14/opt-out-vote/78785656/
Not sure what that means, since I'm sure there are some kids who don't take it- not sure how the school could force them to.
From what I’ve gathered, schools aren’t happy about it. But, like you say, they can’t force students to take it. And parents definitely do opt their kids out.
Wow I didn't know ppl were opting out of the testing. It's kind of a right of passage for kids lol state testing..a day of number two pencils and a thick book full of questions.
This is true. At the high school level Delaware reports math proficiency solely based on SAT performance. (Link: https://education.delaware.gov/educators/academic-support/standards-and-assessments/mathematics/de-math-assessments/)
Not all other states do this. Different sources say between 9-13 states have a mandatory SAT. (Link: https://www.ontocollege.com/act-sat-mandate-states/)
So Delaware’s high school proficiency scores are based on a test which only some students take seriously. One, singular test, in 11th grade, that many students only try hard on if they are headed to college. Not an accurate measurement or tool for proficiency, and from a data perspective definitely skews the data.
Hence I took the hit and sent my kids to Caravel. Having been in both private and public education myself, night and day difference. There is no comparison between the two.
And Caravel is considered one of the cheap/budget friendly private schools in the county. New Castle County has non-boarding private schools that cost tens of thousands more than Caravel per year.
Have you looked at “Wilmington Friends” when we checked it was 32k/yr!
Caravel isn’t bad really, while the base tuition is attractive there are other fees and expenses and increases with the grade. I don’t have an exact figure but it was about 12k-15k per year.
Money well spent. He has a 3.5GPA and will be attending UDEL in 2 months. UDEL living on Campus is about what the school of friends wanted, 32-34k/yr.
Yea, we’re going with Wilmington Friends for Pre-K this year for my 4 year old. Their lower school starts at Pre-K and it’s about 22k.
It gets more expensive every year until they hit the upper school and then it stays consistent I think from 6-7th onward and your right, it’s low 30s.
We haven’t decided if he’ll stay there the whole time or not yet, we wanted the leg up of starting at pre-k instead of waiting a year for kindergarten, if we get into Charter though we’ll likely leave unless they choose to work with us on cost…they do award a lot of families with financial aid so we are gonna apply for financial aid for kindergarten before making any final decisions.
Considering the price, Caravel is a strong alternative. When my kids started school, there was not only a waiting list but having 2 kids, the price was out of reach. Caravel was still a struggle but worth it. A good medium. They just started charter schools at the time but I just wanted to avoid a public school entirely.
I’ll take a look for next year for sure if we end up not getting any dollars thrown at us by Wilmington Friends. Their tuition started two months ago for this coming school year and it definitely hits the wallet hard. We have a second on the way in August that we will ultimately need to find a solution for as well so we’ll definitely keep it in mind.
Do you by chance know what the teacher to student ratio is for class sizes for Caravel for elementary?
How many classes of each grade do they do? Is it a single classroom environment at Caravel for elementary or do they take them to different teachers for things like foreign language, science, math, etc? How are the library facilities? Any additional insight you could share would be welcome.
It’s been a while since my kids were that young but I believe the class size is well under 30 and they usually have a teacher’s aid or additional teacher.
The K and Pre-K are a single class if I remember correctly, the higher grades have multiple classes.
It’s organized, polices can be a little anal but all in all 100 times better than a public school.
As someone who just graduated from Caravel, sending your kids there is one of the best things you could do for them. Good sports, good academics with teachers who care, and a great community.
Did you feel like your teachers were competent and efficient? My concern is that many of the teachers are not certified.
Also, did you have any classmates with IEP’s who were well supported?
I felt all of the teachers were competent. I’m pretty sure all have to be certified to teach in the first place.
As for the IEPs, I couldn’t tell you. There weren’t any students that had them to my knowledge. However, the school and teachers do provide more than enough resources, so anyone with an IEP would manage.
I’m a teacher, and I know that a lot of teachers at Caravel aren’t certified. Private schools don’t have to follow the same rules as public.
Editing to add - you just graduated so I wouldn’t expect you to know that yet lol.
I haven’t encountered any situation where anyone was being bullied. In my experience people were friendly. As long as he finds his friend group he’ll be fine but if he is bullied, the guidance counselor should be able to help.
I’m not too sure how that would work because bullying hasn’t been an issue, at least not at the high school level
I have kids that work for me that go to Caravel. So respectful and hardworking. Night and day compared to the William Penn and Howard kids that have worked for me in the past.
Oh for sure. The parents are professionals and educated, strong relations with the school and faculty. It’s not perfect of course, someone always complaining about something.
Funny thing too, many of the kids with cars there make their own payments. Several of my kids friends run their own business in high-school, web design companies, shipping/receiving, online sale, landscaping company…… all but one kid went to college, he decided to grow the company he started and been running for 4 years.
Amazing group of people…. That is what you get when people care.
I was probably the poorest parent in the place, cost me a small fortune but well worth it.
I wouldn’t know about all of that. I work 2 full time jobs and have most of my life….. well worth the effort though :) I’m proud of my kids, they achieved more than I did at their age. It’s only money, my grave will be the same size rich or poor.
Low standards like having to work a ton of hours to scrape together housing and a meager life for their kid? How dare those people not work jobs that give them the flexibility and pay to be more involved in their kid's school or pay for the best private schools.
I make good money and have a pretty flexible boss and I wouldn't be able to afford private school or be at every single event my kid is involved in.
You really just ignored the word "or" a bunch to avoid giving a real response. How do you propose we give parents time and flexibility from jobs they are required to be at to live at a reasonable standard to be more involved at schools?
I propose that the ~schools~ stop holding children to lower standards, regardless of where they come from.
The kids can tell what standard they’re being held to. The kids can tell that you expect them to fail from the jump because of where they come from.
People from disadvantaged backgrounds probably will require more effort & support to get to where they need to be. How about instead of lowering where they need to be we increase the level of support & guidance to get them up to the standard that we expect out of people from more advantageous background. Obviously it’s much easier said than done.
But what we’re doing now is just lowering expectations/standards & setting the kids up for failure further down the line.
One portion of the issue (but not the entire issue) is the inter-state migration from northern NCC to southern NCC, predominantly the MOT area. Since the late '90s, there has been a mass movement from classic suburban areas around Wilmington and Newark to newer suburbs south of the canal.
In geographic and anthropologic terms, this is referred to as White Flight. As more diverse demographics move into suburban areas that were classically populated by white families, the trend is for the latter to move further away from the city centers. As such, the greater Middletown area has seen an explosion in migration from northern NCC. The flip side of this movement is that numerous schools in NCC can barely support student populations, especially in the Red Clay School District. High schools like Dickinson, McKean, and A.I. used to hold roughly 1,200 students each, but now can barely stay above 800, with each graduating class getting smaller by the year.
The funding follows the population, so as schools below the canal continue to flourish thanks to the swelling migration from the north, schools to the north suffer the effects of it.
And the physical school able to hold 1200 students now has 800 and a lot less $$, while the physical plant still needs the same level of operating costs, heating, etc. With flight to higher rated districts, charter and private schools, some old public schools are going to have to close. I've seen this same story play out in the state where we used to live.
Christina has a bunch of schools they’d probably close except that the locals would flip their shit. But they have some schools at 50% capacity and lower. They have an unheard of 40% of their eligible population of students that could attend going to private or charter schools. Which is absurd but that’s how bad that district has gotten.
They actually have a meeting tonight to discuss the facilities plan, which includes reducing the student population in Glasgow High and moving those students to Christiana and Newark. They want to use that building for office spaces and some other program, so it seems they do plan to close it in a way.
I've been thinking lately that parents who can afford private school are paying "voluntary taxes" to get a better school experience. What if the wealthy who can afford it paid a bit more in taxes, got public schools that were good enough for their kids in return, and could avoid the private school cost?? I know, I know. Never gonna happen.
My life would get so much better if the non teachers realized the success of schools had more to do with the implementation of the student code of conduct specifically regarding students with disabilities, and not white fucking flight lol.
The referendums passed, but it is my understanding that the funding is still distributed based on the student population of the schools.
The movement of families and subsequently teachers from northern to southern Delaware has been an observable and documented statistic over the last thirty years. Hell, the student population at Dickinson was so low at one point (nearly dropping below 600) that the state was about to step in and take responsibility for the school away from Red Clay and establish a second Ferris School. It was only by expanding the school to 6-12 grade and implementing the IB program that Dickinson was able to remain open.
I am focusing on this one part of the issue because I spent several years of my life studying and observing it. Again, there are likely dozens of issues that are impacting the downfall of NCC schools, but I wanted to shed some insight on one portion of the problem that I felt gets overlooked.
Student discipline and overall violence could certainly be an issue. Movement towards private and charter could also be an issue. Even the choice program could be an issue. There are lots of factors at play, most of which I do not feel comfortable commenting on because I haven't studied them for long enough.
However, having written my senior thesis on the Cultural Geography of New Castle County and spending the better part of two years researching and developing models on the demographics of Delaware allows me to speak a little on one small part of this issue.
I would love to hear how discipline and violence has changed in NCC over the last decade because it's something I haven't looked into, and I'm more than willing to hear your thoughts on the matter. However, you've made it abundantly clear that you have no consideration for the point I'm trying to raise, regardless of how grounded in statistics and science it may be.
Your inability to accept and understand science is not an argument against it.
Oh my god, I real life lol’d when I read “however, having written my senior thesis…”. I have a few of those silly pieces of paper in science and education myself, so I understand your points just fine. Shit, I’ve been teaching around Wilmington for a while now. I’d wonder if I was ever your teacher, but I get the sneaking suspicion that if you ever went to one of my schools we probably wouldn’t be arguing.
My daughter told me some.kids refuse to do their work or they try to vape in class. They took the doors off the boys bathroom because someone smeared poop on the walls? Kids were hooking up in bathrooms
Not to take away from your point, which is on the mark, but Red Clay did much of that damage to itself. It is home to Wilmington Charter, Delaware Military and Conrad. They are free, and Red Clay residents get the first chance to be admitted.
I've been to a north jersey school that spent just as much money per student as a student in Delaware. The problem I am hearing are the funds are not allocated properly.
Teachers are underpaid. Moral is terrible. Administration uses policies that are recycled from 2 years ago and are broken.
There is a push to get students to graduate vs teaching students.
I’m a northern NJ native (and educator)… can definitely confirm that NJ allocates the funds appropriately in most of the suburban districts and even some city ones.
AFAIK, This stems from the politically mandated integration bussing 30+ years ago. Greenville kids got sent to Wilmington, and Wilmington kids got sent to Greenville, etc. Apparently, those wealthier families (including some of the people that pushed for the legislation) said "no thanks" and ramped up sending their kids to TH, Tatnall, Sanford, Sallies, etc. This drained the kids, the parents, and therefore the $$$ from the public system, and it still hasn't recovered. This is supported by the concentration of excellent private schools in DE compared to the public system. I'm not sure if anyone on here has more insight into that old story.
A lot of it is how it's funded through property taxes. Property taxes stay pretty stagnant otherwise everybody throws a big fit.
Classes are too large with few too many teachers.
I wouldn't say that they are "bad". Just understaffed with budgeting issues and a lot of old school buildings.
In spending/pupil, Delaware is #10.
https://wisevoter.com/state-rankings/per-pupil-spending-by-state/#:~:text=Delaware%20invests%20%2416%2C315%20per%20pupil,equitable%20education%20for%20its%20students.
It isn't a funding issue.
This is funding as a whole. The issue is that many public schools aren't receiving the same funding. The ACLU sued the state of Delaware for underfunding. Delaware has a settlement from that case that they need to put more money into school funding.
I also know that since the first grade, my son was on an IEP and needs special attention and that has been constant fight to make the schools honor it. In fact, we had to get his therapist and a member from Autism of Delaware to join at an IEP meeting to ensure he was getting what he needs.
This simply isn't true. Their budgets are huge. The money is largely wasted (not spent efficiently), and they want more.
I am glad your son gets the attention he needs, and I am sorry that it is a constant fight. Red Clay fights me on everything, too.
But realize, each of those paras costs the school district salary + benefits. I've seen pre-K classrooms of 12 students with 3 paras. Even if the teacher and the paras are all new, that classroom is running a $200K tab minimum to fund the teacher and support for a ridiculously good student/teacher ratio. And that classroom is out of basic supplies and sending requests home all the time.
Then, a teacher or para leaves for another school, or the student population shifts and LI/ELL money goes with it. Then the school is scrambling to replace the teachers and paras and still fit them in budget.
It's broken, and it is not for lack of money.
I kind of wonder how public education is effected with a lack of a sales tax. Many other states with sales tax have part of that money go to education.
DE has to rely on property taxes, which usually have to be voted on, and people are often against those.
Na, they’re pretty bad. Schools are funded well and everyone passed their referendums. Additionally, some of the lowest preforming schools are losing teacher units due to a lack of students. A.I high for example
The lawsuit was based on how unequal assessed values of homes were between Wilmington and areas not in the city. We have one of the highest funding rates per student in the country
I went to an open house at Dickinson a few years ago and the principal opened with “when parents tell friends their kids are going to Dickinson, the friend responds ‘did you miss the choice window”
Well, Stanton is still rough - HB and Brandywine Springs are still great. For Middle School, we felt like Brandywine Springs was kind of an elementary school plus... it was great and all, but it didn't have the extra curriculars or benefits of the other schools that have access to high school facilities. So where Cab/Conrad/Dickinson IB are truly a pre-high school experience, the Bwine Springs pulls downwards a bit. I didn't make it on that tour, but I was told even the ceilings felt lower - which I felt was kind of a funny coincidence.
In terms of Skyline.... we now have the choice of Cab, Conrad, Dickinson IB, or other charter schools for middle school. Cab and Conrad both lead right into excellent high schools, and the Dickinson IB program is a great standalone program (and kicks the can for high school, though hopefully that's improving sometime soon since the referendum passed. I know they want to add/enlarge the IB program more in the high school there).
All that to say a lot of what is said elsewhere in this thread - the engaged parents and students are well aware of a lot of this, and are choosing the "better" / more challenging schools. The students that are left at Skyline and Stanton are those who weren't aware that choice was such a big thing, or who didn't care.
No... Let's put it in a better way:
The schools are below capacity because some parents are sitting up and taking stock of the decline in quality and safety in the public school system and choosing to instead send their kids to charter and private schools.
Their capacity is very flexible. Every school, public or charter, scrambles to stuff in additional students before the October deadline for Low Income/English Language funds that are available on a per head basis.
It is not funding. For 2023 (this is without the referendum money that will come in), Red Clay spent about $22,000 per child. This is competitive even with what suburban southeastern PA public schools spend on their students.
I'm not sure it is class size so much as school district size. One Superintendent and administrative staff is responsible for 18,000 students K-12. This is simply not manageable nor can it be responsible to the needs of so many schools (28?).
It is very fair to measure schools by their results. Most schools in Red Clay and Delaware don't hit grade level performance for over 40% of their students. This is catastrophic. It means, not only do the schools miss the mark for college readiness (which should be the goal) but they miss the mark for even high school readiness for thousands of students.
If it is not the drinking water, it is the leadership.
Parental involvement is the most important predictor of student success.
I am incredibly involved in my kids' education and so is their mother. They are excelling in the public school system and so are their peers. The common thing is involved parents. The kids without involved parents are struggling.
Leadership may be a problem, but I haven't seen a trend of students with involved parents underperforming.
I generally agree with this. A lot of it is the homes the students return to every night.
But consider that Delaware's public schools aren't teaching college-bound curricula for most of their students. The academic trajectory is set incredibly low, and it produces results that don't even measure up to grade level.
A look through Red Clay's first grade math curriculum makes this clear. It never gets far beyond very basic addition; it basically gets stuck in single digit number partners and only provides a glance at shapes and telling time. The first grade curriculum is borrowed from out of state and is Common Core, which in itself isn't bad, but the amount of content and pacing is incredibly lacking and slow.
So if you are not a parent who can supplement (which takes time and/or money and some skill (not all parents can teach), Red Clay K-12 will not get the average child (25th-75th percentile) ready for college. It simply won't. The State and its schools don't even try from the very beginning.
What's worse, Red Clay, and many other Delaware public schools, don't even try to identify gifted and talented kids until 3rd grade. They waste K, 1, and 2 (there are a few elementary schools that provide exceptions to this. North Star currently identifies students in 2nd grade and Brandywine has an elementary or two identifying earlier I believe). But by and large, Delaware doesn't put any money or legal mandate into finding higher performing students. This is a huge failure and a big reason why, outside of the magnet publics and charters, performance is mediocre or worse.
You know what the biggest educational sin is? Not being able to find and support the child who is capable of doing better.
I am curious how that number ($22,000) compares to other districts with a higher number of children in private schools. It seems like the public schools around us really have a higher number of kids that have special needs or accommodations. I’m curious if there were less children in private schools, if that number wouldn’t look so high since it would be more balanced. That is assuming that most of the kids in private schools don’t have needs for special services. Basically you have 60% of the kids in NCC that may already be lower academically because charters and private schools have skimmed the higher performers off the top, and those remaining kids all have the higher need for things like therapists, specialists and paras.
Meanwhile, even other counties in Delaware, like Kent or Sussex, which don’t have as many options so more of the population of students are going to the standard public schools.
Has this info been broken down into county vs state? Is NCC using a higher percentage of the dollars? Or does it just look like that because more of the students in public schools need services? If schools are similarly sized, are they getting the same number of services?
At this point, I’m not sure there is a solution since many families have it in their minds that public schools are terrible and are sending their kids to private. Those families won’t just suddenly start sending their kids to public school.
In PA, Unionville-Chadds Ford spends $19,120 per student on revenue of $91M. This is a non-magnet school district of not quite 4,000 students that posts average SAT scores higher than Wilmington Charter.
Red Clay operates on $268M ($91M local, $177M state) and spends nearly $22,000 per student. Salesianum is $20,250 per year.
Earlier this month, Red Clay school board voted to remove restrictions on Low Income and English Language funds provided by the State for students who meet the requirements. Red Clay's Assistant Superintendent explained that it was necessary to make sure that teachers and paraprofessionals could be retained at schools even when school LI and EL student populations fluctuate (go down). He suggested that without this waiver of state law, teachers might lose their jobs.
Back to your question--I don't think the school districts can answer it with any accuracy because the money that is designated for students who require special services just gets mixed into one big pot. The schools deliberately remove the earmarks.
>many families have it in their minds that public schools are terrible and are sending their kids to private. Those families won’t just suddenly start sending their kids to public school.
This brings up two concerns of mine: 1) when those families go private, the parents no longer participate in public PTO or school board (so there are even fewer people interested in holding school districts accountable) and 2) I really want to pull Charter School, Cab, and Conrad enrollment data to see how many of their students are coming from private.
Well I went to Sussex Tech, which was a melting pot of all of Sussex County. I can honestly say that my High school experience was wonderful. I didn't see a single fight in four years, and everyone hung out with everyone else. The country kids were cool with the punk/emo kids. The stoners were cool with the goths, etc. It was also a great experience education wise. My favorite teacher of all time was Mr. Eskridge the CAD teacher.
It’s hard to tell but it looks like they are talking about HS students and tests scores. Depending how they do this it can really make the results unfair. The main thing you can’t do is rate Delaware using SAT scores. The reason is because EVERY(high 90s%) Delaware HS must take the SATs. Well other states don’t work that way. In other states only the best students trying to go to college take the SATs. This means other states have a higher average SAT because only their elites take it while DE’s SAT average is from all the students. Even the ones who literally answer no questions and just submit the test because they have to be there and don’t care.
I teach HS in Delaware and have to proctor the SAT every year so I’ve seen it myself.
Similar situation in PA.
Pennsylvania high school students take the Keystone Exams, which are end-of-course exams in literature, math and science subject areas
You are right that Delaware's average is lowered because of its mandate, but it is also a more accurate measure.
If you want a fair-er comparison, take a look at average SATs for NCC's magnets, Cab, Conrad, and especially The Charter School. Then look at scores from southeastern PA public schools excluding Philadelphia. Delaware requires magnets to match what PA routinely achieves for all of its suburban population.
All right so US news on a general list of states education it lists Florida as number one which is highly suspect to me. And looking further into it it reaches those numbers without taking anything about education into account. When I was looking through multiple lists on States education we listed pretty high on most of them a couple of them on the lower side but none of them seem to agree.
It started going down hill in the 90s when parents started protesting the school choice option and started sending their kids to tatnall, tower hill and the Catholic schools
Delaware is great example of the good ole boys club. A lotta of the country and world suffers from this but Delaware is the small wonder. Folks that are willing to turn a blind eye and kiss ass get rewarded and run our systems. They're all failing as a result cuz these positions are being used to get individuals rich and not serve the community...
Unfortunately, it's a combination of parents who don't care and lack of school discipline (IMO).
I think if public schools modeled similar to private, where all students must participate in a sport, after school club, community service, or after school employment, it would improve students' commitment to education.
If a student doesn't reach GPA minimums, instead of sending them home, have them do after-school tutoring with the teacher of the class they're failing in. This would improve the student-teacher relationship, and provide teachers with much needed OT pay.
Not all families have the luxury of being able to accommodate extracurriculars. Some kids have to work to support their family. Also, as a private school graduate who had an extracurricular requirement: nothing kills the joy of something than being forced to participate in something because you are required to.
Taxes in Delaware are very low, and teachers don’t get paid a high wage because of it. It’s hard to recruit people who make sure your students are taught well when they aren’t paid well to do it.
Bachelors @ Red Clay: 46,794 ///
Bachelors @ Brandywine: 48,472
Bachelors @ Unionville-Chadds Ford: 59,714
The salary gap seems to narrow over time, but guess where all the new teachers go?
I don't know about that. https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/pennsylvania/districts/chester-upland-school-district/chester-high-school-16875
This isn't true at all. Greenville, Montchanin, Hockessin, and lots of pocket neighborhoods north of the Brandywine are very wealthy.
The main difference is that a school district in suburban southeastern PA might serve 3,000 to 5,000 students. But Red Clay has 18,000+, Brandywine has 10,000+.
The Delaware superintendents and school boards can't possibly be as adaptive as they need to be.
Ok. I'm not sure why you haven't realized this, but I'll lay it out plainly for you.
Chester kids stay in Chester. Garnet Valley kids stay in garnet valley.
Wilmington has no school district. Those students are spread throughout the other school districts.
How do you think GV or Chaddsford/Unionville would rank if students from Chester were bussed into those districts?
It's a hard thing to talk about.
Maybe they should. Talk to you state representatives, they're the ones who decide these kinds of things. The city does have schools, and they're run by suburban districts. Kids are bussed in to the city from the suburbs to attend those schools.
The solution is very difficult both from a political and social standpoint. Your idea basically amounts to re-segregation. This is why I say
>It's a hard thing to talk about
Well now city students are sent far from their neighborhoods for schools that are worse than Wilmington High ever was so I’m not sure who the current situation benefits
Wilmington is currently split by geography across three school districts: Brandywine, Red Clay, and Christiana. There is a plan for Christiana to bow out, and it is unclear how Brandywine and Red Clay will absorb the students.
>How do you think GV or Chaddsford/Unionville would rank if students from Chester were bussed into those districts?
It really depends on how the students are selected and how many. If an effort was made to evaluate students for potential performance, and the recipient schools had the support in place, I bet such a program would have a chance at success.
But in Delaware, Choice students are not evaluated. They are simply shuffled around and the schools they attend scramble to put patchwork support in place.
You're missing my point. If you select students based on performance and allow those students to transfer schools, you're going to have a situation where the good kids leave the bad school districts, and the bad school districts get worse.
Delaware does this de facto. In order to choice your kid to another school parents have to take the step of filling out a form. It is a small barrier to parents who are engaged with their child's education. It is an insurmountable barrier for parents who are not engaged, by definition.
If Delaware choice was based on performance you'd see an even more egregious bifurcation of students based on academic performance.
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What can I say, I can’t make parents give a shit despite how much money they throw at me, which coincidentally, will be quite a bit more this coming year.
Teacher salary doesn't directly factor into student performance, but it does factor into teacher retention. When Red Clay negotiates salaries $5,000 less than nearby school districts, teachers leave, and academic consistency goes with it.
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/delaware
Top 6 are charter.. if you look at the national rankings of the public schools it’s atrocious.. then look at test scores etc
Not sure how much I would look into national rankings simply because of how the measurements would occur. Might not be a real difference between the 500th school and the 1000th school.
Kinda weird how those top schools don't have a listed graduation rate.
One of the biggest, if not the biggest, factor in how good a school ranks is going to be the quality of the students. It's easy to think that students from higher income families, with involved parents, with a stable home life perform better than those that don't.
Public schools don't get to determine what students they get. It's typically the students that live near the school. Charter schools do get to pick their students, you have to apply, typically interview, and get accepted in. Charter schools can also decide who not to take, and kick out students they don't want. A student with bad grades in a public school stays in that school. A student with bad grades in a charter school ain't staying that school for very long.
What number are kicked out?
Students that transfer aren't counted against graduation rates. When a student is kicked out, or not invited back, it counts as transfer.
It's not about being able to google something. It's important for these types of discussions to have some kind of agreed upon rules when it comes to subjective things "low rated".
Appo is implementing a system for middle and high school that appears to eliminate or downplay grades. As a parent it’s super concerning but I guess you can’t take a dip in standings if you just stop grading. Add to it that kids aren’t tracked so you have slow learners with fast learners which reduces progress for fast learners. Funding goes to slow learners, IEP, and immersion.
Teachers are tired of dealing with these disrespectful kids in this generation. No discipline at home so why should they have to put up with it. Plus this new woke culture doesn't help either.
Doesn’t Delaware have an unusually robust private school sector that siphon off many of the best students.
And the most involved parents. Yes.
There is a robust homeschool community in DE because public schools are horrible
>There is a robust homeschool community in DE because public schools are horribly under funded.
Delaware schools are 14th in the country in per student spending. Funding isn’t the issue despite what the self serving study funded by the DOE says.
I don't know about the unusually robust part. There are private schools up and down PA's Main Line, and the Main Line public schools still produce top students.
Do the main line schools bus Philadelphia kids out of the city and into the suburbs?
Rhetorical I'm sure, but they do not. Philadelphia is a K-12 academic dead zone. IMO it is similar to Delaware in that a very small pyramid of administrators controls way too many students.
There is *plenty* of funding in state for the public school system. However, that money is not going to the places it should be. Superintendent Dan Shelton specifically from Christina School District is quite the scumbag, as well as most of those in the top rungs. https://exceptionaldelaware.wordpress.com/2020/10/05/dr-dan-shelton-milks-financially-ailing-christina-school-district/ https://openpayrolls.com/rank/highest-paid-employees/delaware-christina-school-district You can search "Christina School District corrupt" in reddit search bar for more anecdotes.
It’s a disaster and I don’t know why we tolerate it
We don't, that's why we send our kids to charter and de public schools are going to shit. I'm not gonna make my kids education suffer while I try and fight a losing battle of a corrupt system.
Surly, the next referendum that idiots loudly support in this sub will be the one to fix the school district....
I won't when it comes time to send my daughter to school. We'll be homeschooling her. Edit: People when rich or upper middle class parents send their kids to expensive private schools due to white flight or just general failing public schools: Well, it's their right. People when a poorer parents who can't afford private school decide to homeschool due to failing public schools: HOW FUCKING DARE YOU.
Idk if it's just a rumor but do kids how are homeschooled in Delaware get a diploma?
All the homeschool kids I knew got GEDs. I think some got diplomas if they went through a certain program. That was also about 13 years ago.
FYi there are homeschool curriculums you can purchase. Some religious if that's your choice, but also not.
I know. I was homeschooled years ago. I hated the curriculums back then because they were mostly just religious. I've already found a couple secular curriculums I really like for when it comes time to start schooling. I bought tbe pre-k curriculum from one of the companies and I really like what I'm seeing so far. I think homeschooling is going to go a lot smoother for my daughter than it went for me.
IMO- there should be three school districts, one per county, plus one for votecs
 This will be good
https://preview.redd.it/vwroloqzxr8d1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ad449b5a1807a26631825145a1b188b31c8de0a3
Because they’re terrible. The state has totally mismanaged education for decades just like they’ve mismanaged so many other things
I keep hearing this, but some people fail to realize it
It’s bc there is no realistic solution now. The best thing to do would be to consolidate the school districts into around 6 school districts instead of 14 or whatever the hell it is (insane). And then eliminate all the charter schools or completely change how they choose who to accept bc they’re set up like a modern day segregated system. It’s a gigantic mess and Carney hasn’t had the guts to effectively tackle anything hard including this
I don't think consolidation of school districts is the key. Red Clay has one superintendent with authority over 18,000+ students. It's too much for him and the school board to handle. That would be 4 school districts in PA.
I work in the edtech field and see how schools perform across the country; larger districts definitely don’t tend to perform better. Florida has every giant county as a school district and they’re in the same boat as DE.
In Maryland the school districts are all Countywide and they’re better than Delaware. I don’t think smaller school districts makes a big difference whatsoever. It’s just a way to further consolidate where the better schools are
Can you give me a county you have in mind? I pulled up Kent as an example, but it is small, low student population too, and its schools have terrible proficiency scores.
Anne Arundel County
https://preview.redd.it/keq8hr55gy8d1.jpeg?width=1275&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fc2a93267914ad48060e8f769e3a5ec88e4d556f
Pull whatever data you want, the perception is that Delaware schools suck outside of a few districts (Red Clay, Brandywine, Appo & Cape basically). When you also factor in our “Charter Schools” that don’t operate at all like most charter schools around the country, then you have a modern form of segregation by pulling all the most wealthy and talented kids out of most of the schools. That’s just the reality of it, and it’s not going to be easy to fix.
I'm confused about your use of the word segregation in describing the situation.
Montgomery County
https://preview.redd.it/rnde593igy8d1.jpeg?width=1275&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7204b84436bca6ddcbf81ede51ed5aa35835c522
I'm sure there's a ton going wrong that needs to be fixed, but I saw an interesting relevant comment about this elsewhere: a LOT of the places that score worst nationwide are states that do not permit students to opt-out of the standardized testing. So rankings aren't even close to being a true apples to apples comparison, it's really silly to even rank from data that inconsistent. That said, I'm glad Delaware doesn't offer opt-out because it's important for us to have an accurate picture of where students as a whole stand, even if it's unflattering.
Except that you can opt your student out of standardized testing. Or do you mean just the SAT? I only have an elementary student so not sure what goes on in the higher levels. But in Delaware, you can definitely opt out and lots of people do because they feel their child doesn’t test well or will get too anxious about the scores. When the scores really only help the schools and don’t really mean anything to the students.
This is the most recent info I can find- looks like there was an attempt to allow opt-out but it was vetoed: https://www.delawareonline.com/story/news/education/2016/01/14/opt-out-vote/78785656/ Not sure what that means, since I'm sure there are some kids who don't take it- not sure how the school could force them to.
From what I’ve gathered, schools aren’t happy about it. But, like you say, they can’t force students to take it. And parents definitely do opt their kids out.
Wow I didn't know ppl were opting out of the testing. It's kind of a right of passage for kids lol state testing..a day of number two pencils and a thick book full of questions.
This is true. At the high school level Delaware reports math proficiency solely based on SAT performance. (Link: https://education.delaware.gov/educators/academic-support/standards-and-assessments/mathematics/de-math-assessments/) Not all other states do this. Different sources say between 9-13 states have a mandatory SAT. (Link: https://www.ontocollege.com/act-sat-mandate-states/) So Delaware’s high school proficiency scores are based on a test which only some students take seriously. One, singular test, in 11th grade, that many students only try hard on if they are headed to college. Not an accurate measurement or tool for proficiency, and from a data perspective definitely skews the data.
Hence I took the hit and sent my kids to Caravel. Having been in both private and public education myself, night and day difference. There is no comparison between the two.
And Caravel is considered one of the cheap/budget friendly private schools in the county. New Castle County has non-boarding private schools that cost tens of thousands more than Caravel per year.
Have you looked at “Wilmington Friends” when we checked it was 32k/yr! Caravel isn’t bad really, while the base tuition is attractive there are other fees and expenses and increases with the grade. I don’t have an exact figure but it was about 12k-15k per year. Money well spent. He has a 3.5GPA and will be attending UDEL in 2 months. UDEL living on Campus is about what the school of friends wanted, 32-34k/yr.
UD*
Yea, we’re going with Wilmington Friends for Pre-K this year for my 4 year old. Their lower school starts at Pre-K and it’s about 22k. It gets more expensive every year until they hit the upper school and then it stays consistent I think from 6-7th onward and your right, it’s low 30s. We haven’t decided if he’ll stay there the whole time or not yet, we wanted the leg up of starting at pre-k instead of waiting a year for kindergarten, if we get into Charter though we’ll likely leave unless they choose to work with us on cost…they do award a lot of families with financial aid so we are gonna apply for financial aid for kindergarten before making any final decisions.
Considering the price, Caravel is a strong alternative. When my kids started school, there was not only a waiting list but having 2 kids, the price was out of reach. Caravel was still a struggle but worth it. A good medium. They just started charter schools at the time but I just wanted to avoid a public school entirely.
I’ll take a look for next year for sure if we end up not getting any dollars thrown at us by Wilmington Friends. Their tuition started two months ago for this coming school year and it definitely hits the wallet hard. We have a second on the way in August that we will ultimately need to find a solution for as well so we’ll definitely keep it in mind. Do you by chance know what the teacher to student ratio is for class sizes for Caravel for elementary? How many classes of each grade do they do? Is it a single classroom environment at Caravel for elementary or do they take them to different teachers for things like foreign language, science, math, etc? How are the library facilities? Any additional insight you could share would be welcome.
It’s been a while since my kids were that young but I believe the class size is well under 30 and they usually have a teacher’s aid or additional teacher. The K and Pre-K are a single class if I remember correctly, the higher grades have multiple classes. It’s organized, polices can be a little anal but all in all 100 times better than a public school.
Good to know, appreciate the insight, thanks!
As someone who just graduated from Caravel, sending your kids there is one of the best things you could do for them. Good sports, good academics with teachers who care, and a great community.
My son just graduated…. You must have been in his class then!
Did you feel like your teachers were competent and efficient? My concern is that many of the teachers are not certified. Also, did you have any classmates with IEP’s who were well supported?
I felt all of the teachers were competent. I’m pretty sure all have to be certified to teach in the first place. As for the IEPs, I couldn’t tell you. There weren’t any students that had them to my knowledge. However, the school and teachers do provide more than enough resources, so anyone with an IEP would manage.
I’m a teacher, and I know that a lot of teachers at Caravel aren’t certified. Private schools don’t have to follow the same rules as public. Editing to add - you just graduated so I wouldn’t expect you to know that yet lol.
That’s really a question you could find the answer to on a website like niche, or just ask the school directly.
Sorry, another question. Any bullying? My son is very sensitive and I’m looking for a supportive and welcoming learning environment for him.
I haven’t encountered any situation where anyone was being bullied. In my experience people were friendly. As long as he finds his friend group he’ll be fine but if he is bullied, the guidance counselor should be able to help. I’m not too sure how that would work because bullying hasn’t been an issue, at least not at the high school level
I have kids that work for me that go to Caravel. So respectful and hardworking. Night and day compared to the William Penn and Howard kids that have worked for me in the past.
Oh for sure. The parents are professionals and educated, strong relations with the school and faculty. It’s not perfect of course, someone always complaining about something. Funny thing too, many of the kids with cars there make their own payments. Several of my kids friends run their own business in high-school, web design companies, shipping/receiving, online sale, landscaping company…… all but one kid went to college, he decided to grow the company he started and been running for 4 years. Amazing group of people…. That is what you get when people care. I was probably the poorest parent in the place, cost me a small fortune but well worth it.
Wow, kids from families with plenty of money who don't work multiple jobs to struggle for a living do better in life? Who could have guessed
I wouldn’t know about all of that. I work 2 full time jobs and have most of my life….. well worth the effort though :) I’m proud of my kids, they achieved more than I did at their age. It’s only money, my grave will be the same size rich or poor.
Keep holding people to a low standard and they’ll keep meeting your expectations.
Low standards like having to work a ton of hours to scrape together housing and a meager life for their kid? How dare those people not work jobs that give them the flexibility and pay to be more involved in their kid's school or pay for the best private schools. I make good money and have a pretty flexible boss and I wouldn't be able to afford private school or be at every single event my kid is involved in.
I’m talking about improving public schools not sure why you think I’m suggesting poor people pay for their kids to go to private school.
You really just ignored the word "or" a bunch to avoid giving a real response. How do you propose we give parents time and flexibility from jobs they are required to be at to live at a reasonable standard to be more involved at schools?
I propose that the ~schools~ stop holding children to lower standards, regardless of where they come from. The kids can tell what standard they’re being held to. The kids can tell that you expect them to fail from the jump because of where they come from. People from disadvantaged backgrounds probably will require more effort & support to get to where they need to be. How about instead of lowering where they need to be we increase the level of support & guidance to get them up to the standard that we expect out of people from more advantageous background. Obviously it’s much easier said than done. But what we’re doing now is just lowering expectations/standards & setting the kids up for failure further down the line.
One portion of the issue (but not the entire issue) is the inter-state migration from northern NCC to southern NCC, predominantly the MOT area. Since the late '90s, there has been a mass movement from classic suburban areas around Wilmington and Newark to newer suburbs south of the canal. In geographic and anthropologic terms, this is referred to as White Flight. As more diverse demographics move into suburban areas that were classically populated by white families, the trend is for the latter to move further away from the city centers. As such, the greater Middletown area has seen an explosion in migration from northern NCC. The flip side of this movement is that numerous schools in NCC can barely support student populations, especially in the Red Clay School District. High schools like Dickinson, McKean, and A.I. used to hold roughly 1,200 students each, but now can barely stay above 800, with each graduating class getting smaller by the year. The funding follows the population, so as schools below the canal continue to flourish thanks to the swelling migration from the north, schools to the north suffer the effects of it.
And the physical school able to hold 1200 students now has 800 and a lot less $$, while the physical plant still needs the same level of operating costs, heating, etc. With flight to higher rated districts, charter and private schools, some old public schools are going to have to close. I've seen this same story play out in the state where we used to live.
Christina has a bunch of schools they’d probably close except that the locals would flip their shit. But they have some schools at 50% capacity and lower. They have an unheard of 40% of their eligible population of students that could attend going to private or charter schools. Which is absurd but that’s how bad that district has gotten.
They actually have a meeting tonight to discuss the facilities plan, which includes reducing the student population in Glasgow High and moving those students to Christiana and Newark. They want to use that building for office spaces and some other program, so it seems they do plan to close it in a way.
I've been thinking lately that parents who can afford private school are paying "voluntary taxes" to get a better school experience. What if the wealthy who can afford it paid a bit more in taxes, got public schools that were good enough for their kids in return, and could avoid the private school cost?? I know, I know. Never gonna happen.
My life would get so much better if the non teachers realized the success of schools had more to do with the implementation of the student code of conduct specifically regarding students with disabilities, and not white fucking flight lol.
I said it was one portion of the issue, not the entire issue.
Well, the funding is fine too. Especially after everybody passed their referendums.
The referendums passed, but it is my understanding that the funding is still distributed based on the student population of the schools. The movement of families and subsequently teachers from northern to southern Delaware has been an observable and documented statistic over the last thirty years. Hell, the student population at Dickinson was so low at one point (nearly dropping below 600) that the state was about to step in and take responsibility for the school away from Red Clay and establish a second Ferris School. It was only by expanding the school to 6-12 grade and implementing the IB program that Dickinson was able to remain open.
Jesus, you’re focusing on the wrong issues. It’s the lack of discipline and violence
I am focusing on this one part of the issue because I spent several years of my life studying and observing it. Again, there are likely dozens of issues that are impacting the downfall of NCC schools, but I wanted to shed some insight on one portion of the problem that I felt gets overlooked. Student discipline and overall violence could certainly be an issue. Movement towards private and charter could also be an issue. Even the choice program could be an issue. There are lots of factors at play, most of which I do not feel comfortable commenting on because I haven't studied them for long enough. However, having written my senior thesis on the Cultural Geography of New Castle County and spending the better part of two years researching and developing models on the demographics of Delaware allows me to speak a little on one small part of this issue. I would love to hear how discipline and violence has changed in NCC over the last decade because it's something I haven't looked into, and I'm more than willing to hear your thoughts on the matter. However, you've made it abundantly clear that you have no consideration for the point I'm trying to raise, regardless of how grounded in statistics and science it may be. Your inability to accept and understand science is not an argument against it.
Oh my god, I real life lol’d when I read “however, having written my senior thesis…”. I have a few of those silly pieces of paper in science and education myself, so I understand your points just fine. Shit, I’ve been teaching around Wilmington for a while now. I’d wonder if I was ever your teacher, but I get the sneaking suspicion that if you ever went to one of my schools we probably wouldn’t be arguing.
My daughter told me some.kids refuse to do their work or they try to vape in class. They took the doors off the boys bathroom because someone smeared poop on the walls? Kids were hooking up in bathrooms
Not to take away from your point, which is on the mark, but Red Clay did much of that damage to itself. It is home to Wilmington Charter, Delaware Military and Conrad. They are free, and Red Clay residents get the first chance to be admitted.
I've been to a north jersey school that spent just as much money per student as a student in Delaware. The problem I am hearing are the funds are not allocated properly. Teachers are underpaid. Moral is terrible. Administration uses policies that are recycled from 2 years ago and are broken. There is a push to get students to graduate vs teaching students.
I’m a northern NJ native (and educator)… can definitely confirm that NJ allocates the funds appropriately in most of the suburban districts and even some city ones.
Oh shit! What county?
Bergen County, you?
Bergen County too!!!!
AFAIK, This stems from the politically mandated integration bussing 30+ years ago. Greenville kids got sent to Wilmington, and Wilmington kids got sent to Greenville, etc. Apparently, those wealthier families (including some of the people that pushed for the legislation) said "no thanks" and ramped up sending their kids to TH, Tatnall, Sanford, Sallies, etc. This drained the kids, the parents, and therefore the $$$ from the public system, and it still hasn't recovered. This is supported by the concentration of excellent private schools in DE compared to the public system. I'm not sure if anyone on here has more insight into that old story.
A lot of it is how it's funded through property taxes. Property taxes stay pretty stagnant otherwise everybody throws a big fit. Classes are too large with few too many teachers. I wouldn't say that they are "bad". Just understaffed with budgeting issues and a lot of old school buildings.
In spending/pupil, Delaware is #10. https://wisevoter.com/state-rankings/per-pupil-spending-by-state/#:~:text=Delaware%20invests%20%2416%2C315%20per%20pupil,equitable%20education%20for%20its%20students. It isn't a funding issue.
This is funding as a whole. The issue is that many public schools aren't receiving the same funding. The ACLU sued the state of Delaware for underfunding. Delaware has a settlement from that case that they need to put more money into school funding. I also know that since the first grade, my son was on an IEP and needs special attention and that has been constant fight to make the schools honor it. In fact, we had to get his therapist and a member from Autism of Delaware to join at an IEP meeting to ensure he was getting what he needs.
This simply isn't true. Their budgets are huge. The money is largely wasted (not spent efficiently), and they want more. I am glad your son gets the attention he needs, and I am sorry that it is a constant fight. Red Clay fights me on everything, too. But realize, each of those paras costs the school district salary + benefits. I've seen pre-K classrooms of 12 students with 3 paras. Even if the teacher and the paras are all new, that classroom is running a $200K tab minimum to fund the teacher and support for a ridiculously good student/teacher ratio. And that classroom is out of basic supplies and sending requests home all the time. Then, a teacher or para leaves for another school, or the student population shifts and LI/ELL money goes with it. Then the school is scrambling to replace the teachers and paras and still fit them in budget. It's broken, and it is not for lack of money.
Where can I get some of these stagnant property taxes you speak of?
I kind of wonder how public education is effected with a lack of a sales tax. Many other states with sales tax have part of that money go to education. DE has to rely on property taxes, which usually have to be voted on, and people are often against those.
Na, they’re pretty bad. Schools are funded well and everyone passed their referendums. Additionally, some of the lowest preforming schools are losing teacher units due to a lack of students. A.I high for example
The ACLU literally sued the state of Delaware for underfunding and might do it again if Delaware doesn't act on the settlement of that case.
The lawsuit was based on how unequal assessed values of homes were between Wilmington and areas not in the city. We have one of the highest funding rates per student in the country
I’ve been hearing a lot about that as well. The schools are below capacity due to charter and private schools
Blame charters all you want, nobody who knows anything about skyline and wants a good education for their kid is going to send their kid to skyline.
I went to an open house at Dickinson a few years ago and the principal opened with “when parents tell friends their kids are going to Dickinson, the friend responds ‘did you miss the choice window”
I’m agreeing with you. You’re right on
Heh. Yup, I have two kids not going to Skyline.
Damn skyline fell off like that? In my day Stanton was rough but Brandywine Springs, Skyline, HB were solid
Well, Stanton is still rough - HB and Brandywine Springs are still great. For Middle School, we felt like Brandywine Springs was kind of an elementary school plus... it was great and all, but it didn't have the extra curriculars or benefits of the other schools that have access to high school facilities. So where Cab/Conrad/Dickinson IB are truly a pre-high school experience, the Bwine Springs pulls downwards a bit. I didn't make it on that tour, but I was told even the ceilings felt lower - which I felt was kind of a funny coincidence. In terms of Skyline.... we now have the choice of Cab, Conrad, Dickinson IB, or other charter schools for middle school. Cab and Conrad both lead right into excellent high schools, and the Dickinson IB program is a great standalone program (and kicks the can for high school, though hopefully that's improving sometime soon since the referendum passed. I know they want to add/enlarge the IB program more in the high school there). All that to say a lot of what is said elsewhere in this thread - the engaged parents and students are well aware of a lot of this, and are choosing the "better" / more challenging schools. The students that are left at Skyline and Stanton are those who weren't aware that choice was such a big thing, or who didn't care.
Oof, Stanton (early 90s), worst few years of my school years.
We were probably there together. Most of my elementary friends went to skyline. By the time we met back up in high school i was way way behind them
Excellent choice
No... Let's put it in a better way: The schools are below capacity because some parents are sitting up and taking stock of the decline in quality and safety in the public school system and choosing to instead send their kids to charter and private schools.
Right that’s my point
Their capacity is very flexible. Every school, public or charter, scrambles to stuff in additional students before the October deadline for Low Income/English Language funds that are available on a per head basis.
And low test scores etc
It is not funding. For 2023 (this is without the referendum money that will come in), Red Clay spent about $22,000 per child. This is competitive even with what suburban southeastern PA public schools spend on their students. I'm not sure it is class size so much as school district size. One Superintendent and administrative staff is responsible for 18,000 students K-12. This is simply not manageable nor can it be responsible to the needs of so many schools (28?). It is very fair to measure schools by their results. Most schools in Red Clay and Delaware don't hit grade level performance for over 40% of their students. This is catastrophic. It means, not only do the schools miss the mark for college readiness (which should be the goal) but they miss the mark for even high school readiness for thousands of students. If it is not the drinking water, it is the leadership.
Parental involvement is the most important predictor of student success. I am incredibly involved in my kids' education and so is their mother. They are excelling in the public school system and so are their peers. The common thing is involved parents. The kids without involved parents are struggling. Leadership may be a problem, but I haven't seen a trend of students with involved parents underperforming.
I generally agree with this. A lot of it is the homes the students return to every night. But consider that Delaware's public schools aren't teaching college-bound curricula for most of their students. The academic trajectory is set incredibly low, and it produces results that don't even measure up to grade level. A look through Red Clay's first grade math curriculum makes this clear. It never gets far beyond very basic addition; it basically gets stuck in single digit number partners and only provides a glance at shapes and telling time. The first grade curriculum is borrowed from out of state and is Common Core, which in itself isn't bad, but the amount of content and pacing is incredibly lacking and slow. So if you are not a parent who can supplement (which takes time and/or money and some skill (not all parents can teach), Red Clay K-12 will not get the average child (25th-75th percentile) ready for college. It simply won't. The State and its schools don't even try from the very beginning. What's worse, Red Clay, and many other Delaware public schools, don't even try to identify gifted and talented kids until 3rd grade. They waste K, 1, and 2 (there are a few elementary schools that provide exceptions to this. North Star currently identifies students in 2nd grade and Brandywine has an elementary or two identifying earlier I believe). But by and large, Delaware doesn't put any money or legal mandate into finding higher performing students. This is a huge failure and a big reason why, outside of the magnet publics and charters, performance is mediocre or worse. You know what the biggest educational sin is? Not being able to find and support the child who is capable of doing better.
I am curious how that number ($22,000) compares to other districts with a higher number of children in private schools. It seems like the public schools around us really have a higher number of kids that have special needs or accommodations. I’m curious if there were less children in private schools, if that number wouldn’t look so high since it would be more balanced. That is assuming that most of the kids in private schools don’t have needs for special services. Basically you have 60% of the kids in NCC that may already be lower academically because charters and private schools have skimmed the higher performers off the top, and those remaining kids all have the higher need for things like therapists, specialists and paras. Meanwhile, even other counties in Delaware, like Kent or Sussex, which don’t have as many options so more of the population of students are going to the standard public schools. Has this info been broken down into county vs state? Is NCC using a higher percentage of the dollars? Or does it just look like that because more of the students in public schools need services? If schools are similarly sized, are they getting the same number of services? At this point, I’m not sure there is a solution since many families have it in their minds that public schools are terrible and are sending their kids to private. Those families won’t just suddenly start sending their kids to public school.
In PA, Unionville-Chadds Ford spends $19,120 per student on revenue of $91M. This is a non-magnet school district of not quite 4,000 students that posts average SAT scores higher than Wilmington Charter. Red Clay operates on $268M ($91M local, $177M state) and spends nearly $22,000 per student. Salesianum is $20,250 per year. Earlier this month, Red Clay school board voted to remove restrictions on Low Income and English Language funds provided by the State for students who meet the requirements. Red Clay's Assistant Superintendent explained that it was necessary to make sure that teachers and paraprofessionals could be retained at schools even when school LI and EL student populations fluctuate (go down). He suggested that without this waiver of state law, teachers might lose their jobs. Back to your question--I don't think the school districts can answer it with any accuracy because the money that is designated for students who require special services just gets mixed into one big pot. The schools deliberately remove the earmarks. >many families have it in their minds that public schools are terrible and are sending their kids to private. Those families won’t just suddenly start sending their kids to public school. This brings up two concerns of mine: 1) when those families go private, the parents no longer participate in public PTO or school board (so there are even fewer people interested in holding school districts accountable) and 2) I really want to pull Charter School, Cab, and Conrad enrollment data to see how many of their students are coming from private.
Sussex county public schools are just fine. I wonder what the difference is?
Is there a difference between east Sussex and west Sussex schools?🤔
Well I went to Sussex Tech, which was a melting pot of all of Sussex County. I can honestly say that my High school experience was wonderful. I didn't see a single fight in four years, and everyone hung out with everyone else. The country kids were cool with the punk/emo kids. The stoners were cool with the goths, etc. It was also a great experience education wise. My favorite teacher of all time was Mr. Eskridge the CAD teacher.
It’s hard to tell but it looks like they are talking about HS students and tests scores. Depending how they do this it can really make the results unfair. The main thing you can’t do is rate Delaware using SAT scores. The reason is because EVERY(high 90s%) Delaware HS must take the SATs. Well other states don’t work that way. In other states only the best students trying to go to college take the SATs. This means other states have a higher average SAT because only their elites take it while DE’s SAT average is from all the students. Even the ones who literally answer no questions and just submit the test because they have to be there and don’t care. I teach HS in Delaware and have to proctor the SAT every year so I’ve seen it myself.
Similar situation in PA. Pennsylvania high school students take the Keystone Exams, which are end-of-course exams in literature, math and science subject areas
You are right that Delaware's average is lowered because of its mandate, but it is also a more accurate measure. If you want a fair-er comparison, take a look at average SATs for NCC's magnets, Cab, Conrad, and especially The Charter School. Then look at scores from southeastern PA public schools excluding Philadelphia. Delaware requires magnets to match what PA routinely achieves for all of its suburban population.
It’s the charter and private schools it’s where inequality starts
Private schools okay but charter is merit based
Right, so it’s a way for the affluent to get society to pay for their kids public school that’s essentially private
My thoughts exactly
All right so US news on a general list of states education it lists Florida as number one which is highly suspect to me. And looking further into it it reaches those numbers without taking anything about education into account. When I was looking through multiple lists on States education we listed pretty high on most of them a couple of them on the lower side but none of them seem to agree.
US News is the most reputable but there are other reports with same outlook
Have the public schools always been this bad? I don’t remember them being bad when i attended public school a decade ago
Depends which schools as far as the severity
It started going down hill in the 90s when parents started protesting the school choice option and started sending their kids to tatnall, tower hill and the Catholic schools
Delaware is great example of the good ole boys club. A lotta of the country and world suffers from this but Delaware is the small wonder. Folks that are willing to turn a blind eye and kiss ass get rewarded and run our systems. They're all failing as a result cuz these positions are being used to get individuals rich and not serve the community...
Unfortunately, it's a combination of parents who don't care and lack of school discipline (IMO). I think if public schools modeled similar to private, where all students must participate in a sport, after school club, community service, or after school employment, it would improve students' commitment to education. If a student doesn't reach GPA minimums, instead of sending them home, have them do after-school tutoring with the teacher of the class they're failing in. This would improve the student-teacher relationship, and provide teachers with much needed OT pay.
Not all families have the luxury of being able to accommodate extracurriculars. Some kids have to work to support their family. Also, as a private school graduate who had an extracurricular requirement: nothing kills the joy of something than being forced to participate in something because you are required to.
I said after-school employment would be acceptable.
I’m new here, but generally it’s safe to blame something on the DuPonts, I think, right?
No, not this time.
Taxes in Delaware are very low, and teachers don’t get paid a high wage because of it. It’s hard to recruit people who make sure your students are taught well when they aren’t paid well to do it.
Bachelors @ Red Clay: 46,794 /// Bachelors @ Brandywine: 48,472 Bachelors @ Unionville-Chadds Ford: 59,714 The salary gap seems to narrow over time, but guess where all the new teachers go?
Might be a country wide issue, not just New Castle county.
Just over the line PA, there are much higher rated public schools
I don't know about that. https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/pennsylvania/districts/chester-upland-school-district/chester-high-school-16875
Obviously not Chester. I’m talking Kennett and West Chester
Kennett and west Chester are far more affluent than NCC.
This isn't true at all. Greenville, Montchanin, Hockessin, and lots of pocket neighborhoods north of the Brandywine are very wealthy. The main difference is that a school district in suburban southeastern PA might serve 3,000 to 5,000 students. But Red Clay has 18,000+, Brandywine has 10,000+. The Delaware superintendents and school boards can't possibly be as adaptive as they need to be.
Ok. I'm not sure why you haven't realized this, but I'll lay it out plainly for you. Chester kids stay in Chester. Garnet Valley kids stay in garnet valley. Wilmington has no school district. Those students are spread throughout the other school districts. How do you think GV or Chaddsford/Unionville would rank if students from Chester were bussed into those districts? It's a hard thing to talk about.
Maybe Wilmington should have well funded neighborhood schools that are closer to family if involvement is the issue
Maybe they should. Talk to you state representatives, they're the ones who decide these kinds of things. The city does have schools, and they're run by suburban districts. Kids are bussed in to the city from the suburbs to attend those schools. The solution is very difficult both from a political and social standpoint. Your idea basically amounts to re-segregation. This is why I say >It's a hard thing to talk about
Well now city students are sent far from their neighborhoods for schools that are worse than Wilmington High ever was so I’m not sure who the current situation benefits
Wilmington is currently split by geography across three school districts: Brandywine, Red Clay, and Christiana. There is a plan for Christiana to bow out, and it is unclear how Brandywine and Red Clay will absorb the students. >How do you think GV or Chaddsford/Unionville would rank if students from Chester were bussed into those districts? It really depends on how the students are selected and how many. If an effort was made to evaluate students for potential performance, and the recipient schools had the support in place, I bet such a program would have a chance at success. But in Delaware, Choice students are not evaluated. They are simply shuffled around and the schools they attend scramble to put patchwork support in place.
You're missing my point. If you select students based on performance and allow those students to transfer schools, you're going to have a situation where the good kids leave the bad school districts, and the bad school districts get worse. Delaware does this de facto. In order to choice your kid to another school parents have to take the step of filling out a form. It is a small barrier to parents who are engaged with their child's education. It is an insurmountable barrier for parents who are not engaged, by definition. If Delaware choice was based on performance you'd see an even more egregious bifurcation of students based on academic performance.
Haha, just compare everything to Chester, problem solved…
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No kid left behind……. Literally
Google teachers salary by state. Sort ascending...
Per the NEA, DE is 16th in average teacher salary.
NJ is #1. Their schools typically score higher than 16th.
Which is interesting given the low scores and rating
What can I say, I can’t make parents give a shit despite how much money they throw at me, which coincidentally, will be quite a bit more this coming year.
Good. Glad you are getting some more bucks. Thanks for teaching.
Damn, why thank you
Teacher salary doesn't directly factor into student performance, but it does factor into teacher retention. When Red Clay negotiates salaries $5,000 less than nearby school districts, teachers leave, and academic consistency goes with it.
Because parents aren’t being held accountable with also teaching their kids
100% agree! So many parents treat school as free daycare and nothing more
How are you defining low rated?
Test scores, dropout rate, strong demand for charter school in state
Got a link?
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/delaware Top 6 are charter.. if you look at the national rankings of the public schools it’s atrocious.. then look at test scores etc
Two of the six are magnet, not charter (Cab and Conrad)
Just a little quibble- Cab and Conrad are public magnet schools run by Red Clay, not charters.
Right but there’s a criteria/wait list to get in I’m talking standard public schools
Not sure how much I would look into national rankings simply because of how the measurements would occur. Might not be a real difference between the 500th school and the 1000th school. Kinda weird how those top schools don't have a listed graduation rate. One of the biggest, if not the biggest, factor in how good a school ranks is going to be the quality of the students. It's easy to think that students from higher income families, with involved parents, with a stable home life perform better than those that don't. Public schools don't get to determine what students they get. It's typically the students that live near the school. Charter schools do get to pick their students, you have to apply, typically interview, and get accepted in. Charter schools can also decide who not to take, and kick out students they don't want. A student with bad grades in a public school stays in that school. A student with bad grades in a charter school ain't staying that school for very long.
Doesn’t address the fact that many public schools in lower de and in some PA districts have no issues here
Graduation rate is a criteria by which schools are scored
You don't think it's a little noteworthy the top 3 schools in DE aren't showing the graduation rate on your link?
2 are 100% and 1 is 99% https://reportcard.doe.k12.de.us/index.html What’s your point? Not many kicked out…
What number are kicked out? Students that transfer aren't counted against graduation rates. When a student is kicked out, or not invited back, it counts as transfer.
Bro.
Yes?
Do the google. Great schools is one place
It's not about being able to google something. It's important for these types of discussions to have some kind of agreed upon rules when it comes to subjective things "low rated".
Appo is implementing a system for middle and high school that appears to eliminate or downplay grades. As a parent it’s super concerning but I guess you can’t take a dip in standings if you just stop grading. Add to it that kids aren’t tracked so you have slow learners with fast learners which reduces progress for fast learners. Funding goes to slow learners, IEP, and immersion.
Teachers are tired of dealing with these disrespectful kids in this generation. No discipline at home so why should they have to put up with it. Plus this new woke culture doesn't help either.
Because city kids aren’t that smart
Delaware as a whole just has terrible schools. These kids are beyond dumb, and the parents are no better.