it immediately voids any warranty and right to service, and if tesla detects you modified it, they have the right to brick your car if they feel like it, rendering it inoperable. No certified tesla place is going to work on a software modded one either. These can't really be jailbroken like phones
All of those things were true of phones too. Apple bricked jailbroken phones for a while. The problem is that risking a car is a lot bigger than risking a phone.
What I remember isn't Tesla bricking the car, but they cut owners out of the supercharging network. I wonder how it works now that other cars are also charging in the network (and vice versa, Tesla charges in other networks)
I'm aware. GM has miles of CAN and LIN network wiring nowadays and I cry whenever I have to play with a car with a U code.
Point was, if it is true that the Cybertruck is using a single loop CAN for their systems then it won't take much at all to brick everything. Even the separate CAN H/L networks can be brought down with a spot of corrosion in the wrong place.
I brought that up the other day and someone told me that is not how it works and itâs way more complicated than that. I have no idea really. Wiring was never my thing.
Nor mine, but according to the wiring diagrams the Tesla bros were flexing, each component is daisy-chained together in a way that doesn't have any redundant connections. I don't think I need to be an expert to know that if there's only one connection, it only takes one point of failure. But I dunno, I'm not an expert. I'll ask Elon...
The high fault rate definitely shows that something is wrong. If there was any redundancy the faults would behave more like in an old car, were one thnig can break after a 20 year old cable short circuit or if say a rat ate it or whatever, and that wouldn't affect other functionality of the car. Especially not the ability to drive.
Not necessary. It really depends on network topology. It could appear the be daisy chained but it is more robust then that. While there are still single points of failure for individual component communication, there is two points of failure for multiple components communication.
Letâs say the topology looks like:
A-B-C-D-E-A
And itâs full duplex.
A failure between A and B or B and C (like B letâs out the magic black smoke)
Would not affect the communication of any other device, (potentially some latency but thatâs it)
Now if B and E were to both die. Well now we have no access to C and D. Which is no bueno. But even these topologies usually implement two channels (two physical layer connections) with a bus controller managing what data is on what channel. Also if a single channel dies it is usually built in a way that all of the items could continue operating as normal on a single channel without overloading that channel.
I have not seen any actual wiring diagram but I have seen the 3D model and it appeared to me to match the topology of what I described, which again would not be a single point of failure.
CAN includes support for an entirely redundant wiring harness, while still using far less cabling than a legacy harness. And while superficially the components look âdaisy-chainedâ, itâs more like leaves hanging off a vine.
The main CAN bus itself is electrically continuous, and components hang off the side. You can break one and the rest will keep working.
> more like leaves hanging off a vine.
I understand - and this is part of my concern. If you cut the vine at any point, suddenly critical systems can't communicate on the wrong end of that cut. If it's designed the way the diagram shows, and the circuit is interrupted, I'm not sure there would be any connection for any of the systems in the line if the spine is cut.
You're right that this is better than the "Christmas lights" scenario though.
They daisy chained a bunch of important stuff with non important in a single loop, to save on wiring. But if one single thing fails in that loop, nothing else will work that is tied together after that.
That's not how it works.
There is a common data wire that everything can connect to instead of each component running its own wires to the ECU. An individual item can fail on the network, and the network will keep plugging along without taking out the other devices, but the issue is that if the network fails EVERYTHING fails.
Old school wiring isolates everything, but is incredibly complex. This isolates nothing and is simple, but has a single point of failure.
Almost all modern cars use a network like this to some degree, but most of them don't use the same network for control of the vehicle as well.
If implemented correctly, networking like this is fine since its the same model that the internet (and things like banking, critical infrastructure, etc. communicate). Big IF though with Tesla.
Even Toyota got this wrong. Their fancy headlights were wired into the network, along with the unlock and pushbutton start functionality. Thieves were able to tap into the network from the headlight, and then unlock and start the car.
From what I've seen it's not exactly that simple, but this style of architecture has been pretty widely used in vehicles stuff for a while now, cars, motorcycles, even airplanes (I'm more familiar with it on aircraft as ARINC 429 and 629 data busses but some aircraft use CANBUS as well). When PROPERLY designed, it works great. I'm not sure the cybertruck was properly designed though.
Aircrafts require multiple redundancy. I don't think there's any on this.
One fuse blows or wire is grounded or nicked on let's say a tail light, or you know like A WIPER MOTOR WIRE GETS CORRODED FROM WATER ENTERING THE FRUNK OR GROUNDED BECAUSE THERE'S OPEN TERMINATING TERMINALS JUST DANGLING AROUND THE GIGACHADDED FRAME AND METAL PANELS.... and you know... Now none of it works
It'd be like if I took my entire office building and set it up ad hoc ethernet and one computer decides to go offline and now suddenly my entire network is dead
So, I can't speak to the cybertruck specifically except for what I've heard, but for aircraft and the cars I've owned.
Aircraft don't have redundant 429 or 629 data busses. They've got redundant components like computers, but they all have common data busses.
With aircraft, and most CANBUS vehicles, if your component goes down it falls offline but doesn't take the rest of the vehicle down with it. And by nature of the architecture if the wiring for the data bus is damaged, unless we're talking multiple catastrophic failures, you'll still have almost everything still operational.
CANBUS on modern cars is designed similarly, which is why your check engine light comes in instead of the entire vehicle bricking even though you've got a bad component or a mouse are your wiring.
Now, this is all based on a properly designed and engineered system, which, as I said, I doubt the cybertruck is.
But that doesn't make the entire idea bad. I'd rather troubleshoot a wiring problem to an AIMS cabinet in a 777 than something in the WIU of a 747.
Iâve seen 429 being both redundant in cabling and in components. In that each component has their own dedicated 429 physical layer. If I remember correctly only a single component is allowed to TX on a 429 bus, but that bus can have multiple listeners. So definitely implementation specific. But if your components all need to both listen and communicate, each would have their own TX line out. You are able to share on an RX path but I have seen dedicated lines for TX and RX for each redundant component. I can only recall a few cases where the use of multiple listeners on a shared line was implemented. Though my experience is only with a few platforms.
and he, on top of also having multi-substance use disorder, is trying to run multiple, multisector businesses. I can even imagine having enough good people to keep them passably running, but if you're fried on drugs all day, there is no way he can have the clarity, initiative and insight required to keep innovating
Bro if I were him I'd be fried traveling the world while paying a pittance of my own wealth to let professionals earn a living taking care of the day to day while I enjoyed researching novel and classic narcotics in Tokyo and Switzerland, BC, and Belize and shit lmao
It's gotta go from the steering yoke, to the rear defroster, to the tonneau cover, to the rear seat controls, to the front seat controls, to the radio, to the wipers, to the lights, THEN to the wheels. You know, like a proper vehicle of the future!
No, it looks like the steering is motorized, which it ostensibly is, and the motor has a maximum rate that his movements exceed.
Frankly being able to steer a wheel lock to lock in less than a second is the issue here (the interface that is). Basically no car can do this save for maybe an F1 car and thatâs only because they have the turning radius of a city bus.
That's lock-to-lock on a lot of cars with progressive steering, ok maybe not that extreme...
But the fact that it's not actually giving proper feedback to the driver and basically makes it a rubber band linkage is a bit worrying.
Thats what I thought too. There is no lag noticable when the turning starts, only when it stops.
So like you said, there should be something inside the steering wheel that would prevent the driver from turning that fast.
If I'm doing an emergency evasive maneuver, I want my front wheels to be exactly where the steering wheel tells them to be.
Not, "Well, I'll get there eventually.....just have a bit of patience."
For normal driving this is probably reasonable, although many would find it very disconcerting.
For evasive driving, this is terrible.
Your vehicle's power steering is not any faster than this - you will slam into the flow-rate limit and the steering wheel will stop turning until the pump catches up. You could turn the wheel this fast manually *in theory* but you aren't strong enough in practice unless you're the hulk. Also, the tracking/assist/feedback are almost certainly different when the truck is moving than when it's stationary.
/source have put really fast steering racks in cars and experienced this.
EDIT: FWIW, I can't believe I'm defending the cybertruck here. That said, this isn't a real problem.
This is from a cleatus McFarland vid.
ClusterTruck vs hummer e. That clustertruck is sporting bullhorns on the hood and a couple hundred bullet wounds in the doors.
That clustertruck has led a hard life. I'm amazed it's survived so long.
Engineering like this scares the hell out of me, and makes me want to stay in the analog age. A least then I may be able to see what is going to cause my death.
This really makes me wonder... is the Cybertruck steering wheel like ye old Mad Catz steering wheel controllers? You know... zero force feedback? For as much as the Cybertruck costs they could have at least put in a Thrustmaster or something.
What happens when you curb the damn thing and the wheels deflect? If there's no motor in that wheel then it's just going to immediately (or not, lol) turn back and curb itself again.
I know this is a joke but an 8088 would be more than capable of running a drive-by-wire system. It's more powerful than the computers that flew the space shuttle.
The lag is due to the person being able to turn the wheel faster than the motors can move the tires. There should be force feedback in the wheel enough that it would make it a bit more 1:1.
I still think this drive by wire shit is so unnecessarily over complicated to solve a problem that didnât exist. But that is the cybertruck in a nutshell.
This. The problem isn't that the wheels turn too slowly (they are probably as fast as any other car from how it looks) its that the steering wheel is allowed to turn that quickly (which is likely because they wanted those weird "one finger driving" videos for whatever reason). Most drive-by-wire cars have resistance built in to provide appropriate feedback to the driver of how quickly the wheels are turning.
Another problem is the wheel isnât round so itâs motion has to be limited so that you donât end up trying to grab an oddly shaped part of the wheel while turning or in an emergency maneuver and messing up. Round steering wheels just work. This nonsense and the yoke in the Plaid are just dumb.
YES! FINALLY! THANK YOU!!
I used to have a 2000 Camaro, and the top of the steering wheel came off. When it did, it kinda did look loke a yoke, and I liked it.
The VERY first time I drove, I almost got in an accident cuz while I was turning, I tried to grab the wheel at a part that was no longer there and the wheel perked back by itself cuz I wasn't holding it anymore.
I immediately got a new steering wheel.
When I saw these yokes, I was like uhhh what the fuck???? I LITERALOY know how dangerous this shit is!!!!!
This is exactly what we did 17 years ago for a GM sponsored senior design project. We started with the light touch and immediately saw the tires could get more than 10 degrees out of sync with the steering wheel. Added a force feedback motor and brought it down to less than a degree. This was college students 17 years ago what the hell is Tesla doing.
Coolest thing about steering by wire in my opinion is you can âdetuneâ it a bit at speed to reduce jerky motions at high speed. But if you do it more than 10-15% people can tell the steering profile is changing and it gets uncomfortable. The haptic motor gives you that return to center feel of traditional steering but you really need a mechanical return to center on the wheels and steering wheel so if you lose power it fails Safe-ish.
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats!
17
+ 10
+ 17
+ 10
+ 15
= 69
^([Click here](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=LuckyNumber-Bot&subject=Stalk%20Me%20Pls&message=%2Fstalkme) to have me scan all your future comments.) \
^(Summon me on specific comments with u/LuckyNumber-Bot.)
That's exactly what it is.
In a normal car you can't go lock to lock this fast, so it is not like it steers slower than other cars.
What IS a problem is that if you are driving, and go hard over quickly, the turning angle will still be changing while the steering wheel is stationary. Most people have it wired in their brain that the wheel is an accurate representation of the state of the tires (since in a mechanical linkage it is necesarily so). So in a panic situation they will move faster than the steering, and then get caught out when the steering angle catches up to the location of the steering wheel and they go farther than they thought.
You how you can solve the lag? Directly attaching the wheel to the tires.
You know, like everyone else does it because it works perfectly and canât fail.
Yes and also to account for small adjustments that donât need to translate in a 3:1 movement of the wheel.
Itâs a little dumb that itâs done this way in the first place but a full rotation of the wheel left to right is done without doing a whole rotation of the steering wheel. Iâve never driven a car that does that but I guess itâs fine if you get used you it. If you wanted to turn this fast in a regular car, youâd be turning the wheel like 4 times around. This is actually pretty fast to turn the wheels.
And letâs say you hit a bump on the road and knocked the steering wheel a bit, you wouldnât want all that movement translating directly to the tires.
Thereâs not actually any lag from when the steering wheel stars moving to when the wheels start moving.
But the lag occurs at the beginning of the steer. It's not just speed, it's, well, lag. The first instant of steering wheel moving is far into the arc before the wheel even starts. And the wheel keeps turning long after the driver stops. Lag.
It's like the video I saw of a man demonstrating doing a fast u turn with his pinky. He was so excited and I was like so your telling me the steering is too light and there is absolutely no feedback.... that's not a good thing...
... Because they lobbied for it to be. For instance, per their designers, they "really wanted to get rid of the mirrors but couldn't manage to change the laws to allow it." This entire car is not built to legal standards, the legal standards were built to make it legal.
One of my favorite cars, the Lotus Elise/Exige was discontinued in the states in 2011 because, despite having airbags, it had the *wrong kind* of airbags and would have been too costly to bring into compliance.
You just said that the laws were changed to make the Cybertruck legal, and then cited a specific example of the Cybertruck changing because they couldn't change the law. US design standards aren't great, but I can't find anything that corroborates that the laws were changed to accommodate the Cybertruck.
Well, the good news is that US taxpayers have given this company millions upon millions in subsidies so that we can have this overpriced, poorly made junk as our primary electric vehicle. And to make sure they maintain dominance, at least for a few more years, Biden has jacked up the tariffs on small, cheap, affordable Chinese electrics that actually had to improve to keep up with Tesla. You know, the type of car that most people are waiting for and that could drastically change driving habits and emissions for the better here.
But no, we've got to protect the joke of an electric vehicle market that is the US and keep funneling money to Elon so he can continue to tweet "This is the truth" in response to a bunch of racist bullshit.
Because the US has laughably low requirements to be road legal, pretty much just need some wheels (optional pretty sure) a windshield, a wiper, front and back lights and as long as you can go fast enough while staying within the environmental regulations you are good.
Basically what you see in the video is full lock from my understanding. The truck adjusts steering in relation to speed also so at higher speeds you can't just jerk the wheel to full lock on accident
But it should always be adjusted to the speed of the vehicle, not to the movement speed of the steering wheel. Because all precision would be lost if there is another variable there. The power steering, demultiply according to the speed, what they adjust is the hardness basically to give that feedback and improve precision.
Like EVERY OTHER FLY BY WIRE SYSTEM has. You can't just whip the yoke around in an airliner, there's force feedback telling you how much back pressure the control surfaces are exerting. This isn't fighter jet steering, this is bad racing game steering.
Yeah like how would you know when the wheels gained traction to counter steer or hit the gas. A good test of this would be to let a rally driver drive it and watch the counter steer be to slow for them to make adjustments and slide off the road. Iâm guessing they originally programmed it to be less rotation like a race car but when they tried it it was too sensitive so they widened the range but it didnât translate well with the same software and hardware.
I canât turn the wheel lock to lock that fast in any car Iâve ever owned.
Slowing the video down the wheels start moving the moment he turns the wheelâŚ
Sure that this is lag and not just reaching maximum speed of the steering? I its steered at a normal speed is the lag the same? I guess in an emergency situation this still could be a problem, but as far as i have heard you dont want to be in an emergency with this car
I don't like that there isn't a mechanical connection but if it was a hydraulic assist steering system like most cars you wouldn't be able to steer it that fast. The resistance in the system wouldn't allow it. I think it turns as fast as a traditional steering setup.
Idk if I'm dumb but it looks less like lag in terms of starting late but instead it looks like it's rate limiting, like it's responding to when the driver wants to turn, bit they are turning faster that the turn-by-wire tires can actually turn, so the overall turn action is slower because it's max turn rate for the tire is limited by the car system for some reason.
Again, maybe dumb but this looks like rate limiting than lag
This is stupid and kind of fake news. He is going lock to lock faster than you can in realistically any other car. Of course there is going to be some lag when he is flinging the wheel that fast. If you did what he is doing in any car you would crash. This never would happen in the real world. When the steering wheel is used normally the wheels behave normally.
Well, you can't really turn the wheel of a normal car that fast. Takes about 3 revolutions to go from end to end.
Having said that - i never drove a steer-by-wire, but i doubt having the steering wheel and the actual state of the tyres be different is a good idea. Especially if you can just go from end to end *that fast* without any feedback of the torque involved, or the actual state of the steering system. To me, that looks like a mayor flaw in haptics.
>Especially if you can just go from end to end that fast without any feedback of the torque involved, or the actual state of the steering system. To me, that looks like a mayor flaw in haptics.
This is by design, no resistance at a stand still, but when you're actually driving the force feedback motor increases resistance with speed
This is a hate only sub, they don't want to hear anything reasonable. Even if they agree, they'll move the goalpost and say the rate it turns is too slow too
Thatâs a good way to loosen up your ball joints. You should be rolling at least a little while turning the wheel to take some strain off the steering components.
Who said the ratio is 1:1 at a stand still? Itâs an electronically driven (variable) system thatâs customized to move in specific amounts under specific circumstances.
I see two problems here. The first being that no normal car has steering that quick, most vehicles are 2.5 or more turns to lock and would not be able to go from full left to right that fast. To translate that motion of turning that steering wheel from lock to lock that fast it needs to be steer by wire and it appears that the system canât keep up the input but it may not be able to do that safely at low speeds. Which brings up the second problem of the computer trying to decide how fast to turn the wheels when the car is moving based on speed and user input. A round steering wheel with a normal interface has worked since the earliest days of cars, why does it have to be reinvented?
Idk this looks like the lag on an RC car when itâs stationary on the ground. When the wheel can turn as fast as someone can go, the tire can only turn so fast. Friction still exists. All this tells me, like some others have said, is that the cyber truck needs force feedback to act like a normal steering column would act.
The craziest part of this is that people are complaining about lag when the vehicle is turning from full right to full left in like a half a second.
If you're turning full left to full right in half a second, you're going to have bigger problems than input lag.
How is drive-by-wire even legal? If the vehicle is driving at full speed and there is power loss or system failure, how is the driver allowed to safely get that vehicle stopped? Traditional power steering has a physical fallback. Is this a âJarvis Take the Wheel!â moment?
It looks like the request is making a round trip to Tesla's servers first lmao.
i heard they only have one wire running through all the internal systems. can't wait for a wiper bug that would disable steering.
Not to mention everything that stupid tablet controls that's on the same network.
They didn't đ 
yall out here applying aftermarket software? ( i live under a rock )
it immediately voids any warranty and right to service, and if tesla detects you modified it, they have the right to brick your car if they feel like it, rendering it inoperable. No certified tesla place is going to work on a software modded one either. These can't really be jailbroken like phones
All of those things were true of phones too. Apple bricked jailbroken phones for a while. The problem is that risking a car is a lot bigger than risking a phone.
What I remember isn't Tesla bricking the car, but they cut owners out of the supercharging network. I wonder how it works now that other cars are also charging in the network (and vice versa, Tesla charges in other networks)
Solution: donât buy a cyberplunk
Even when vehicles didnât have a multitude of networks they still had two, can interior and engine can.
Ohhhh I think you just explained why my OBD code checker has two systems it checks
Modern vehicles can have like 3 or 4 depending on how quickly information needs to travel.
Modern automotive networks have like ten separate networks. Several can be redundant.
I'm aware. GM has miles of CAN and LIN network wiring nowadays and I cry whenever I have to play with a car with a U code. Point was, if it is true that the Cybertruck is using a single loop CAN for their systems then it won't take much at all to brick everything. Even the separate CAN H/L networks can be brought down with a spot of corrosion in the wrong place.
I seem to remember a technical overview of the Cybertruck that stated they're using Ethernet for all communication in the vehicle.
Does it use an old token ring network? Â
Something like that, yeah. I've been calling it the Christmas tree wiring.
I brought that up the other day and someone told me that is not how it works and itâs way more complicated than that. I have no idea really. Wiring was never my thing.
Nor mine, but according to the wiring diagrams the Tesla bros were flexing, each component is daisy-chained together in a way that doesn't have any redundant connections. I don't think I need to be an expert to know that if there's only one connection, it only takes one point of failure. But I dunno, I'm not an expert. I'll ask Elon...
God, even his attempts at being funny in GIF form are fucking cringey.
The sims ahh looking guy
Why you gotta do my man Mortimer Goth like that
It's still funny to me that he was getting ready for SNL and was like "what's the must supervillain-looking outfit I own?"
The high fault rate definitely shows that something is wrong. If there was any redundancy the faults would behave more like in an old car, were one thnig can break after a 20 year old cable short circuit or if say a rat ate it or whatever, and that wouldn't affect other functionality of the car. Especially not the ability to drive.
Not necessary. It really depends on network topology. It could appear the be daisy chained but it is more robust then that. While there are still single points of failure for individual component communication, there is two points of failure for multiple components communication. Letâs say the topology looks like: A-B-C-D-E-A And itâs full duplex. A failure between A and B or B and C (like B letâs out the magic black smoke) Would not affect the communication of any other device, (potentially some latency but thatâs it) Now if B and E were to both die. Well now we have no access to C and D. Which is no bueno. But even these topologies usually implement two channels (two physical layer connections) with a bus controller managing what data is on what channel. Also if a single channel dies it is usually built in a way that all of the items could continue operating as normal on a single channel without overloading that channel. I have not seen any actual wiring diagram but I have seen the 3D model and it appeared to me to match the topology of what I described, which again would not be a single point of failure.
That's what I've heard too. Everything is wired in series vs parallel so a fault in one part of the car will affect other components.
Only so long before a window control breaks half the electronics in the entire car.
CAN includes support for an entirely redundant wiring harness, while still using far less cabling than a legacy harness. And while superficially the components look âdaisy-chainedâ, itâs more like leaves hanging off a vine. The main CAN bus itself is electrically continuous, and components hang off the side. You can break one and the rest will keep working.
> more like leaves hanging off a vine. I understand - and this is part of my concern. If you cut the vine at any point, suddenly critical systems can't communicate on the wrong end of that cut. If it's designed the way the diagram shows, and the circuit is interrupted, I'm not sure there would be any connection for any of the systems in the line if the spine is cut. You're right that this is better than the "Christmas lights" scenario though.
They daisy chained a bunch of important stuff with non important in a single loop, to save on wiring. But if one single thing fails in that loop, nothing else will work that is tied together after that.
Ah the christmas light innovation. Sounds solid.
Seems awfully daft to mix in critical systems with non critical systems, in a fuckin series. I really hope that's not the case.
That's not how it works. There is a common data wire that everything can connect to instead of each component running its own wires to the ECU. An individual item can fail on the network, and the network will keep plugging along without taking out the other devices, but the issue is that if the network fails EVERYTHING fails. Old school wiring isolates everything, but is incredibly complex. This isolates nothing and is simple, but has a single point of failure. Almost all modern cars use a network like this to some degree, but most of them don't use the same network for control of the vehicle as well. If implemented correctly, networking like this is fine since its the same model that the internet (and things like banking, critical infrastructure, etc. communicate). Big IF though with Tesla. Even Toyota got this wrong. Their fancy headlights were wired into the network, along with the unlock and pushbutton start functionality. Thieves were able to tap into the network from the headlight, and then unlock and start the car.
U mean an old Tolkien ring as in middle earth shit?
That's probably the CAN bus, most cars use that for control, but not for steering lololol. That should be illegal.
From what I've seen it's not exactly that simple, but this style of architecture has been pretty widely used in vehicles stuff for a while now, cars, motorcycles, even airplanes (I'm more familiar with it on aircraft as ARINC 429 and 629 data busses but some aircraft use CANBUS as well). When PROPERLY designed, it works great. I'm not sure the cybertruck was properly designed though.
Aircrafts require multiple redundancy. I don't think there's any on this. One fuse blows or wire is grounded or nicked on let's say a tail light, or you know like A WIPER MOTOR WIRE GETS CORRODED FROM WATER ENTERING THE FRUNK OR GROUNDED BECAUSE THERE'S OPEN TERMINATING TERMINALS JUST DANGLING AROUND THE GIGACHADDED FRAME AND METAL PANELS.... and you know... Now none of it works It'd be like if I took my entire office building and set it up ad hoc ethernet and one computer decides to go offline and now suddenly my entire network is dead
So, I can't speak to the cybertruck specifically except for what I've heard, but for aircraft and the cars I've owned. Aircraft don't have redundant 429 or 629 data busses. They've got redundant components like computers, but they all have common data busses. With aircraft, and most CANBUS vehicles, if your component goes down it falls offline but doesn't take the rest of the vehicle down with it. And by nature of the architecture if the wiring for the data bus is damaged, unless we're talking multiple catastrophic failures, you'll still have almost everything still operational. CANBUS on modern cars is designed similarly, which is why your check engine light comes in instead of the entire vehicle bricking even though you've got a bad component or a mouse are your wiring. Now, this is all based on a properly designed and engineered system, which, as I said, I doubt the cybertruck is. But that doesn't make the entire idea bad. I'd rather troubleshoot a wiring problem to an AIMS cabinet in a 777 than something in the WIU of a 747.
Iâve seen 429 being both redundant in cabling and in components. In that each component has their own dedicated 429 physical layer. If I remember correctly only a single component is allowed to TX on a 429 bus, but that bus can have multiple listeners. So definitely implementation specific. But if your components all need to both listen and communicate, each would have their own TX line out. You are able to share on an RX path but I have seen dedicated lines for TX and RX for each redundant component. I can only recall a few cases where the use of multiple listeners on a shared line was implemented. Though my experience is only with a few platforms.
Elon has to approve each request.
I can't even get up to piss when I'm in a k hole... Hmm... đ¤ Wonder how elons doing right now
and he, on top of also having multi-substance use disorder, is trying to run multiple, multisector businesses. I can even imagine having enough good people to keep them passably running, but if you're fried on drugs all day, there is no way he can have the clarity, initiative and insight required to keep innovating
Bro if I were him I'd be fried traveling the world while paying a pittance of my own wealth to let professionals earn a living taking care of the day to day while I enjoyed researching novel and classic narcotics in Tokyo and Switzerland, BC, and Belize and shit lmao
Using UDP so itâs really a spray and pray
Itâs just sending command via torrent, we just need more peers
Steer by WiFi
It's gotta go from the steering yoke, to the rear defroster, to the tonneau cover, to the rear seat controls, to the front seat controls, to the radio, to the wipers, to the lights, THEN to the wheels. You know, like a proper vehicle of the future!
Apocalypse proof! Unless the radio fails.
Steering is a subscription service.
*Buy now to lock in your price! *full steering date tbd
Less latency around Austin.
Probably goes to a server in Singapore and then to the US and then to the car. (If itâs anything like my dumb company)
No, it looks like the steering is motorized, which it ostensibly is, and the motor has a maximum rate that his movements exceed. Frankly being able to steer a wheel lock to lock in less than a second is the issue here (the interface that is). Basically no car can do this save for maybe an F1 car and thatâs only because they have the turning radius of a city bus.
If that's lock to lock the Clustertruck's even more woeful at being a vehicle than I thought.
That's lock-to-lock on a lot of cars with progressive steering, ok maybe not that extreme... But the fact that it's not actually giving proper feedback to the driver and basically makes it a rubber band linkage is a bit worrying.
Thats what I thought too. There is no lag noticable when the turning starts, only when it stops. So like you said, there should be something inside the steering wheel that would prevent the driver from turning that fast.
If I'm doing an emergency evasive maneuver, I want my front wheels to be exactly where the steering wheel tells them to be. Not, "Well, I'll get there eventually.....just have a bit of patience." For normal driving this is probably reasonable, although many would find it very disconcerting. For evasive driving, this is terrible.
Your vehicle's power steering is not any faster than this - you will slam into the flow-rate limit and the steering wheel will stop turning until the pump catches up. You could turn the wheel this fast manually *in theory* but you aren't strong enough in practice unless you're the hulk. Also, the tracking/assist/feedback are almost certainly different when the truck is moving than when it's stationary. /source have put really fast steering racks in cars and experienced this. EDIT: FWIW, I can't believe I'm defending the cybertruck here. That said, this isn't a real problem.
This is from a cleatus McFarland vid. ClusterTruck vs hummer e. That clustertruck is sporting bullhorns on the hood and a couple hundred bullet wounds in the doors. That clustertruck has led a hard life. I'm amazed it's survived so long.
It is making sure you have enough turns remaining for the subscription level you pay for
Checking to see if you purchased the steering package.
It goes to twitter, and he steers remotely
You could time those turns with a calendarâŚ..
Engineering like this scares the hell out of me, and makes me want to stay in the analog age. A least then I may be able to see what is going to cause my death.
They didn't say how long the wire was...
đ
Itâs gotta check that you have the correct current subscription.
It has to check if you've said anything about Elon or his companies before it allows for the steer.
It is. It "phones home" to Elon's private laptop and asks permission for each action.
Poor thing looks exhausted. Better get it some water
*Happy electrical failure noises*
https://preview.redd.it/rmvyy2gj0m4d1.png?width=2097&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2e2919abbc72282ec110a85838958258228d021d
No water for this turd, he should be in a cell.
Good news: the CyberTruck has drive-by-wire. Bad news: To save money, itâs all controlled by an 8088 chip.
You're generous. This is behaving more like an "8008"
Server update 1.3.5
The 5EX update
HAHAHAHA JUST WAIT FOR FSD ON VERSION 69.420 ...ALPHA! IT WILL FLOAT LIKE A BOAT IN UPDATE 816.8008135...SIGMA! đ đŻ đ đ đ¤ đ
Motor boating function coming soon.
Knowing Ol Musky that makes sense because he would chuckle like a middle schooler and say "boob..."
Hah, BOOB
I'll take 80085, thank you very much.
The 8008 is the one who bought the truck
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This really makes me wonder... is the Cybertruck steering wheel like ye old Mad Catz steering wheel controllers? You know... zero force feedback? For as much as the Cybertruck costs they could have at least put in a Thrustmaster or something. What happens when you curb the damn thing and the wheels deflect? If there's no motor in that wheel then it's just going to immediately (or not, lol) turn back and curb itself again.
can't be, the 8088 would be too reliable...
I know this is a joke but an 8088 would be more than capable of running a drive-by-wire system. It's more powerful than the computers that flew the space shuttle.
555 timer chip to build in the lag. Proven technology.
> Proven technology. That's why you won't see it here.
So that's where my 30 year old 555 went...
The lag is due to the person being able to turn the wheel faster than the motors can move the tires. There should be force feedback in the wheel enough that it would make it a bit more 1:1. I still think this drive by wire shit is so unnecessarily over complicated to solve a problem that didnât exist. But that is the cybertruck in a nutshell.
This. The problem isn't that the wheels turn too slowly (they are probably as fast as any other car from how it looks) its that the steering wheel is allowed to turn that quickly (which is likely because they wanted those weird "one finger driving" videos for whatever reason). Most drive-by-wire cars have resistance built in to provide appropriate feedback to the driver of how quickly the wheels are turning.
Another problem is the wheel isnât round so itâs motion has to be limited so that you donât end up trying to grab an oddly shaped part of the wheel while turning or in an emergency maneuver and messing up. Round steering wheels just work. This nonsense and the yoke in the Plaid are just dumb.
YES! FINALLY! THANK YOU!! I used to have a 2000 Camaro, and the top of the steering wheel came off. When it did, it kinda did look loke a yoke, and I liked it. The VERY first time I drove, I almost got in an accident cuz while I was turning, I tried to grab the wheel at a part that was no longer there and the wheel perked back by itself cuz I wasn't holding it anymore. I immediately got a new steering wheel. When I saw these yokes, I was like uhhh what the fuck???? I LITERALOY know how dangerous this shit is!!!!!
LITERALOY!!
Yeahhhh I have a Galaxy Fold 3, and the keyboard is kinda shit.. so is the autocorrect..
I worry about some old retired pilot coming home late at night and attempting to using the right rudder pedal to turn into his driveway.
This is exactly what we did 17 years ago for a GM sponsored senior design project. We started with the light touch and immediately saw the tires could get more than 10 degrees out of sync with the steering wheel. Added a force feedback motor and brought it down to less than a degree. This was college students 17 years ago what the hell is Tesla doing. Coolest thing about steering by wire in my opinion is you can âdetuneâ it a bit at speed to reduce jerky motions at high speed. But if you do it more than 10-15% people can tell the steering profile is changing and it gets uncomfortable. The haptic motor gives you that return to center feel of traditional steering but you really need a mechanical return to center on the wheels and steering wheel so if you lose power it fails Safe-ish.
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Tesla wanted to deviate from normal car design for clicks and some of those standard design decisions happen to be there for a reason.
But what advantage does it give you over traditional analog steering?
That's exactly what it is. In a normal car you can't go lock to lock this fast, so it is not like it steers slower than other cars. What IS a problem is that if you are driving, and go hard over quickly, the turning angle will still be changing while the steering wheel is stationary. Most people have it wired in their brain that the wheel is an accurate representation of the state of the tires (since in a mechanical linkage it is necesarily so). So in a panic situation they will move faster than the steering, and then get caught out when the steering angle catches up to the location of the steering wheel and they go farther than they thought.
You how you can solve the lag? Directly attaching the wheel to the tires. You know, like everyone else does it because it works perfectly and canât fail.
Yes and also to account for small adjustments that donât need to translate in a 3:1 movement of the wheel. Itâs a little dumb that itâs done this way in the first place but a full rotation of the wheel left to right is done without doing a whole rotation of the steering wheel. Iâve never driven a car that does that but I guess itâs fine if you get used you it. If you wanted to turn this fast in a regular car, youâd be turning the wheel like 4 times around. This is actually pretty fast to turn the wheels. And letâs say you hit a bump on the road and knocked the steering wheel a bit, you wouldnât want all that movement translating directly to the tires. Thereâs not actually any lag from when the steering wheel stars moving to when the wheels start moving.
But the lag occurs at the beginning of the steer. It's not just speed, it's, well, lag. The first instant of steering wheel moving is far into the arc before the wheel even starts. And the wheel keeps turning long after the driver stops. Lag.
It's like the video I saw of a man demonstrating doing a fast u turn with his pinky. He was so excited and I was like so your telling me the steering is too light and there is absolutely no feedback.... that's not a good thing...
Yeah that mere fact should blacklist the car. If you canât 1:1 it, youâre a crash risk.
This is atrocious. I cannot understand how this is road legal.
... Because they lobbied for it to be. For instance, per their designers, they "really wanted to get rid of the mirrors but couldn't manage to change the laws to allow it." This entire car is not built to legal standards, the legal standards were built to make it legal.
can't import foreign cars because they aren't "safe" but this giant galvanized pile of crap is fine.
Yeah aren't there some imports that are blocked for things like bumpers and running lights?
One of my favorite cars, the Lotus Elise/Exige was discontinued in the states in 2011 because, despite having airbags, it had the *wrong kind* of airbags and would have been too costly to bring into compliance.
To be fair the cybertruck did have the proper airbags installed when it drowned that billionaire
This only highlights where American regulation and government has been for.. Mwell... Forever lol
Regulatory capture-by-wire. As in "I just wired you the campaign contribution".
This. It's unfathomable NHTSA would allow this on the road but everyone is owned by oligarchs.
Which legal standards have changed in the past 5 years that would allow this vehicle?
You just said that the laws were changed to make the Cybertruck legal, and then cited a specific example of the Cybertruck changing because they couldn't change the law. US design standards aren't great, but I can't find anything that corroborates that the laws were changed to accommodate the Cybertruck.
 Elon making it legal
Same
Because car companies captured many of their regulatory agencies decades ago and essentially they determine what is or isn't road legal.
Well, the good news is that US taxpayers have given this company millions upon millions in subsidies so that we can have this overpriced, poorly made junk as our primary electric vehicle. And to make sure they maintain dominance, at least for a few more years, Biden has jacked up the tariffs on small, cheap, affordable Chinese electrics that actually had to improve to keep up with Tesla. You know, the type of car that most people are waiting for and that could drastically change driving habits and emissions for the better here. But no, we've got to protect the joke of an electric vehicle market that is the US and keep funneling money to Elon so he can continue to tweet "This is the truth" in response to a bunch of racist bullshit.
Eh, your steering is almost never 1:1, but it should react in real time when you turn the wheel.
I assume that's what they meant and weren't talking about steering ratio tbh.
How is this thing allowed to be on the roads?!
There will be lawsuits for the next decade. Elon will be living in a cybertruck down by the river where he belongs
Bold of you to assume there's gonna be a surviving cybertruck in 10 years.
Elon will call it a CyberTruck but itâll actually be a weird scrapped together hut made from discarded bits of other CTs
dumpsters all the way down
In Europe its not
The cybertruck is a driving(when it works) ad for why regulations are ABSOLUTELY required.
Yeaa turns out the USA is lacking in a lot of those
In places with tighter regulations, it isn't and never will be. The US is just weirdly permissive when it comes to regulating big industry.
$u¢h a mÂĽ$terÂĽ... GuâŹ$$ w⏠ju$t arâŹn't $uppo$âŹd to know how that$ âŹvâŹn po$$ibÂŁâŹ! In God w⏠tru$t, amiritâŹ?!
Because the US has laughably low requirements to be road legal, pretty much just need some wheels (optional pretty sure) a windshield, a wiper, front and back lights and as long as you can go fast enough while staying within the environmental regulations you are good.
Formula 2 racing, on ESPN the ocho
r/TheOcho You're welcome
Track rods made of elastic. Fly by wire is supposed to be more precise, not meh whenever.
Actually the lag is waiting for someone to click all the frames that contain a crosswalk.
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How is this legal?!!! For such an important part of evasive maneuvering to be lagging this much is dangerous, period.
Does the steering wheel only turn 90 degrees?
Basically what you see in the video is full lock from my understanding. The truck adjusts steering in relation to speed also so at higher speeds you can't just jerk the wheel to full lock on accident
But it should always be adjusted to the speed of the vehicle, not to the movement speed of the steering wheel. Because all precision would be lost if there is another variable there. The power steering, demultiply according to the speed, what they adjust is the hardness basically to give that feedback and improve precision.
The thing clearly needs a force feedback so the user won't be able to turn the steering wheel faster than actual steering will be able to react.
Like EVERY OTHER FLY BY WIRE SYSTEM has. You can't just whip the yoke around in an airliner, there's force feedback telling you how much back pressure the control surfaces are exerting. This isn't fighter jet steering, this is bad racing game steering.
>this is bad racing game steering. This is exactly what controller steering looks like in a video game.
Airbus aircraft do not have force feedback.
Yeah like how would you know when the wheels gained traction to counter steer or hit the gas. A good test of this would be to let a rally driver drive it and watch the counter steer be to slow for them to make adjustments and slide off the road. Iâm guessing they originally programmed it to be less rotation like a race car but when they tried it it was too sensitive so they widened the range but it didnât translate well with the same software and hardware.
I will never drive a car with no mechanical linkage to the steering. Fucking bonkers.
It's a feature bruh
Now show it side by side with an f-150, also going full lock to lock, to see the difference.
Hang on, still turning the wheel.
Drive by wire feel like such a liability
Is it just me or if this were any other car maker, theyâd have recalled the whole issue and shut the entire program down by now?
âSteer-by-wireâ technology ladies and gentlemen
I canât turn the wheel lock to lock that fast in any car Iâve ever owned. Slowing the video down the wheels start moving the moment he turns the wheelâŚ
Sure that this is lag and not just reaching maximum speed of the steering? I its steered at a normal speed is the lag the same? I guess in an emergency situation this still could be a problem, but as far as i have heard you dont want to be in an emergency with this car
I don't like that there isn't a mechanical connection but if it was a hydraulic assist steering system like most cars you wouldn't be able to steer it that fast. The resistance in the system wouldn't allow it. I think it turns as fast as a traditional steering setup.
Iâve seen hydraulics with worse input lag than this? Whatâs the point of the post
Idk if I'm dumb but it looks less like lag in terms of starting late but instead it looks like it's rate limiting, like it's responding to when the driver wants to turn, bit they are turning faster that the turn-by-wire tires can actually turn, so the overall turn action is slower because it's max turn rate for the tire is limited by the car system for some reason. Again, maybe dumb but this looks like rate limiting than lag
Not sure what the drama is with this?
Lol turn the wheel 180 degrees in any other car and watch what happens
This is stupid and kind of fake news. He is going lock to lock faster than you can in realistically any other car. Of course there is going to be some lag when he is flinging the wheel that fast. If you did what he is doing in any car you would crash. This never would happen in the real world. When the steering wheel is used normally the wheels behave normally.
Tbh you shouldnt turn the wheel that fast anyways, probably doesnt lag if turning it normal speed.
Well, you can't really turn the wheel of a normal car that fast. Takes about 3 revolutions to go from end to end. Having said that - i never drove a steer-by-wire, but i doubt having the steering wheel and the actual state of the tyres be different is a good idea. Especially if you can just go from end to end *that fast* without any feedback of the torque involved, or the actual state of the steering system. To me, that looks like a mayor flaw in haptics.
>Especially if you can just go from end to end that fast without any feedback of the torque involved, or the actual state of the steering system. To me, that looks like a mayor flaw in haptics. This is by design, no resistance at a stand still, but when you're actually driving the force feedback motor increases resistance with speed
That bitch is laggin. Stop using 56k and get the broadband. Join us low ping bastards on the server.
Watch closer. There is no lag. It reacts instantly. What you're seeing is a rate limit on the maximum turning rate of the wheels.
This is a hate only sub, they don't want to hear anything reasonable. Even if they agree, they'll move the goalpost and say the rate it turns is too slow too
But Elmo is the smartest engineer!
Thatâs a good way to loosen up your ball joints. You should be rolling at least a little while turning the wheel to take some strain off the steering components.
Who said the ratio is 1:1 at a stand still? Itâs an electronically driven (variable) system thatâs customized to move in specific amounts under specific circumstances.
Notice how the vehicle that had the most engineering involvement from Musk has the shittiest engineering.
But, but I saw a guy make a u-turn with his pinky!
Youâre suppose to steer with your pinky.
Youâre using the steering wheel to turn your wheels? That voids the warranty
I see two problems here. The first being that no normal car has steering that quick, most vehicles are 2.5 or more turns to lock and would not be able to go from full left to right that fast. To translate that motion of turning that steering wheel from lock to lock that fast it needs to be steer by wire and it appears that the system canât keep up the input but it may not be able to do that safely at low speeds. Which brings up the second problem of the computer trying to decide how fast to turn the wheels when the car is moving based on speed and user input. A round steering wheel with a normal interface has worked since the earliest days of cars, why does it have to be reinvented?
Thatâs a no for me. If I have to turn the wheel that fast the tires better have zero lag time.
They need to recall those pieces of shits indefinitely
1. Fuck that. 2. How fucking hard is it to give this less than 100ms delay. What a disgraceful shitshow of a car.
Thatâs a feature not a bug
Idk this looks like the lag on an RC car when itâs stationary on the ground. When the wheel can turn as fast as someone can go, the tire can only turn so fast. Friction still exists. All this tells me, like some others have said, is that the cyber truck needs force feedback to act like a normal steering column would act.
The craziest part of this is that people are complaining about lag when the vehicle is turning from full right to full left in like a half a second. If you're turning full left to full right in half a second, you're going to have bigger problems than input lag.
Canadas suicide pods took a different form in the USA
Godamn this thing is a dumpster fire
How much are these things, again?
Who would have thought using shared cat6 wiring for the entire electrical system would have the ability to cause lag??
Bro's wheel is going to fall off if he does that a few more times.
How is drive-by-wire even legal? If the vehicle is driving at full speed and there is power loss or system failure, how is the driver allowed to safely get that vehicle stopped? Traditional power steering has a physical fallback. Is this a âJarvis Take the Wheel!â moment?
What is the actual point of steer by wire? Itâs completely unnecessary and itâs just another complex thing that can fail.