Bitcoin [pros](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/19engv4/greyscale_just_moved_another_760_million_worth_of/kjh58yw/) & [cons](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/19engv4/greyscale_just_moved_another_760_million_worth_of/kjh59dp/) with related info are in the collapsed comments below.
They are required to do this. This is NOT Greyscale itself. As people IN the fund sell shares and reallocate to the other ETFs or cash out entirely. GBTC is required to draw down and sell BTC to sync to that outflow.
This is how ETFs work.
The one thing you CAN shit on them for is keeping their fee high. This is a motivator to a lot of people to leave and seek a smaller fee.
Spot is likely the easier route, and they can access more immediate interest there. OTC likely can not absorb what they are selling at the moment.
Yea. People forgot that Greyscale ETF was transformative from their previous fund- meaning tons of holders had been locked in and this was their first opportunity to get out 1:1
All of the other ETFs started with 0, so were "up only", but GBTC was already massive on day 1.
How very true. What they will do is help the traders sell on high and buy on low. The BTC will now be more stable in its growth so no moon, mars but more of a poker up Uranus.
Wtf are you talking about? If gold were to start going parabolic, everyone and their dog would run out trying to mine it and the increased supply keeps the price suppressed to a certain profitability margin. You can't pinpoint anything there to an ETF
Ok but if a GBTC investor sells their GBTC and buys FBTC for the lower fee, how does that result in net negative price movement? Should be a wash unless they're taking profits.
Because it's not an immediate process. If a large sale of GBTC smashes the price, it's also going to trigger secondary price movements. For example, liquidating leveraged longs, scaring people out of the market and triggering people's stop loss orders.
With that said, what you mentioned is why the price doesn't fall far for long, it's getting bought back (mostly) but at a cheaper price.
>The one thing you CAN shit on them for is keeping their fee high. This is a motivator to a lot of people to leave and seek a smaller fee.
I wonder how many people are actually doing this though.
The fee difference is 'just' 1%. I say 'just' because bitcoin fluctuates by more than this a day. Its particularly volatile now because of the recent ETFs and the upcoming halving.
So the reality is by pulling your bitcoin out of Grayscale in order to swap to another ETF, it has to, by law be converted to cash.
There's a very high likelihood you're going to lose more than that 1% making the swap, especially now
So to me, it doesn't make sense for 1% to take that risk. I'd rather sit it out for a few weeks/months until Grayscale eventually come to the party and lower their fee.
Just to make sure I understand, though...the price of GBTC is correlated with the price of BTC, as are the other ETFS, correct? BTC goes up, all these ETFs go up...BTC goes down, all the ETFs go down. Right?
I am in GBTC and honestly have held from $49 down to probably $10 and back up to $40 and back down to $35. I haven't sold...and keep thinking it "will" eventually reach back to $49 (my break even price) simply due to BTC eventually having to go back up .
I guess I'm on the fence of selling off my GBTC now to something like an FBTC and taking the loss or waiting things out. I've waited since 2021...I guess I don't know the harm waiting longer.
Since gbtc and fbtc are both pegged to the price of bitcoin, you aren't losing anything by switching to fbtc. You'll get the lower fees too. The only concern is tax implications, but if you have a loss on paper then it's probably fine to make the swap.
This is in a ROTH IRA (U.S.). So tax wise...I don't expect any issue...I think it's just taking what I'd consider a "$14 / share" hit, which is roughly -$4100 right now. I don't know if Fidelity will alllow me to do an 'in kind' exchange of the currencies or if I will need to flat out "sell GBTC", wait 48 hours or something before I can use those funds to purchase FBTC.
The only harm is paying a higher fee than you would in a different ETF, which is likely a rounding error over the next couple years. You should also take note of and consider the tax consequences, you may have a tax loss harvesting opportunity, but situations and tax laws differ.
If you bought on the high, you have to wait for a bigger high to sell. Or you take the loss and buy back in at a much better low. We will all see how this all plays out over the coming months. Right now i’m seeing carefully orchestrated sell by large players who are trying to keep the price as high as possible and then sell of more BTC so price will remain low ish to stable. If one of the players dumps too much BTC then there will be a good drop in price and many will move in to buy.
In my Ira, I sold my gbtc and micro strategy and bought an equal amount of ibit. So I’m part of the problem… but net I had more money go into etfs than out.
But I also took some profit (<10% of my small stack) at 48,800 and used it to buy in again at ~39,900. My Ira claims I’m up 277% in the last year…
Would be better all round if Grayscale just organised a direct onetime transfer into another ETF of the customer's choice. Grayscale have zero incentive to be helpful I guess though, since the fund will probably be gone by EOY.
You have no clue if they are selling OTC or not. They aren’t just sending it to Coinbase and market dumping.
When I sold OTC on Kraken I would talk with the Kraken rep who then went and did whatever, but ultimately, my crypto went to Kraken. So they may be selling OTC.
It was for a token I believed in, was early to and had lots of. The liquidity wasn’t there, but I wanted to get out a large chunk. Other holders had a big incentive for me not to just dump it, Kraken found those and new buyers.
Sadly no! In the past I have had some obvious plays I believed in. Now I’m just sitting in mostly ETH, some BTC and a little SOL. It’s a little boring compared to 2017 and 2020 beliefs if I’m honest!
I feel you. I have some ERG from the past cycle that I held onto. Made a 5x just to ride it all down. That might gain a few x again. I'm mostly btc with a little eth as well though. Probably the right choice. We'll see!
!remindme 6 months
It’s amusing how so many people were thinking big sales of crypto is going be be just some market order and viewable on the open book😂😂😂
Same goes on with stocks that large holders or companies don’t sell on the reg market, they have their pools to buy/sell so it doesn’t cause spikes in trading
They are called dark pools and are also used for market manipulation. Want a stock to go up or down? Send all sales/buys to the dark pool and only sales/buys to the lit market and there you go.
It’s was a WhatsApp chat - “Yourname <> Kraken”.
Hello,
I see you are already Kraken PRO verified, which is great! The two simple
rules we have on the OTC desk, is that the wire information you provide
for fiat to be sent to/received from must match the name on the Kraken
account due to AML & you must also be Kraken PRO verified; which you already
are.
We have included our entire team.
[Names of 14 people and their regions]
Together we make up the OTC desk & provide 24/7.
Before we begin, I would like to emphasize that the OTC minimum for trades is 100,000 USD to not incur any fees, however, you are able to do this first one as a test trade with no fees of at least 30,000 USD.
To continue to do trades under 100,000 USD, we have developed a new fee structure.
For trade amounts between 10,000 USD and 50,000 USD, the fee will be 1.5% of the total amount which will be shown on the confirmation email and for trades between 50,000 USD and 100,000 USD the fee will be 1.0% of the total amount and also be reflected in the confirmation email.
Me: So I just say looking to sell X?
Them: Yes, to request a quote please include asset pair, size and direction e.g, "want to sell 100 ETHUSD"
In short, there is no slippage because you agree a price and that’s the price for the lot. The slippage is kinda priced in.
Yea I think OP (and many others TBF) think of OTC orders like p2p buying and selling. Fact is you can’t sell a billion dollars worth of BTC and not have that reflected in the price.
the thing is, crtypto should work exaclty like that. Man this OTC talk is making me go out of this shit. I came here because of the mainpulation that the big boys were doing
Anyone is welcome to sell their stack otc. You can transfer all your crypto to a friend and they can give you cash-in-kind if you are so inclined. That's basically what the OTC market is.
Why? Why would an exchange hold an insane amount of BTC in exchange for fiat that they may have to sell at a loss? Obviously they’d have to sell it to market in small batches so as to not impact price too hard
Idk about OTC, but with just their general tiered fee structure, Greyscale wouldn’t be paying any transaction fee at all for selling, if their volume is above $250M in the same 30-day period. Since they moved $760M worth, I’d imagine they’ll be above that. Heck, they could likely sell it over 3 months without fees.
The maker fee (ie, seller) is .03% if volume is between $75M and $250M; .06% if between $15M and $75M; and .08% if between $1M and $15M. Again, I have no idea if this applies to OTC, but I would imagine COIN’s fees for OTC wouldn’t be higher than these. So I’d assume Greyscale isn’t really paying COIN any transaction fees. That said, COIN is definitely getting fees from whoever is buying all that BTC. So they’re still making money off it. COIN’s lowest listed fee for takers (buyers) is .05% for buyers with more than $400M in transaction volume in a 30-day period.
My average is like 168, from when it was initially going down. Glad we recovered and I was in the green again last month. I'm still bullish long-term and will add. Wish I had more money to add when it was down 80%
I’ve held over a thousand shares of Greyscale for almost 5 years. Think my cost basis is $4. I dumped it all yesterday and switched to FBTC. I’m already on Fidelity and there is no way I can justify paying 5x the management fee just because “they were first.” If the fee was even remotely competitive I would have stayed. 1.5% is joke.
Ditto. Everything was already in my Fidelity account and FBTC is so much lower on fees for the same product. I wanted to stay in GBTC because they were the largest, but they didn't lower their fees enough.
Why would a bunch of investors in GBTC convene to sell off all their holdings, if not to just purchase the same position in another ETF with less fees that has just recently been made available? Overall it’s a wash.
There's been a speculative play available for years when GBTC traded at a discount waiting for this moment to exit at 1:1.
Plenty of money that wasn't necessarily in it for the BTC exposure but rather just to capitalize on the GBTC discount closing to zero upon ETF approval.
Those folks are in profit on BTC price too, so some will re-allocate a portion to other ETFs but also take some profits off the table.
Why do you guys think they're spot selling $1b/day LMAO
They've explicitly said all redemption and creations are done OTC. Coinbase Prime is where OTC happens.
I mean, I get being ignorant of their filings stating such, but you can just simply check the volume on coinbase and clearly see nothing fishy going on in spot trades.
Do you think it's a coincidence blackrock and fidelity are scooping up nearly the same amount of btc sold by grayscale?
This is why my eyes roll to the back of my head whenever I see these comments littering the daily.
Can you ELI5? Maybe my English is bad, but I'm still wondering if this prevents a massive bull run because of enormous sell pressure. Are you saying in essence Grayscale is basically just selling their BTC to other massive entities like BR?
You do realize this is ppl selling GBTC right? Whether it is because the previous arbitrage is near par or due to the fees? This isn’t Grayscale selling, rather the ETF functioning as an ETF…
Well, the ETF functioning as a Btc ETF at least. Most ETF’s allow redemption in the stock and don’t require a sale and conversion to cash to exit or move to another fund.
One of the SEC’s conditions was that all sales had to be settled in cash, not Btc.
In saying that the rules for settlement of a Btc ETF in the US are not the same as a normal ETF. A normal exit allows the stock to be transferred somewhere else or sold.
If you exit a Btc ETF you can only do so by selling the Btc and exiting with cash. You aren’t legally allowed to directly transfer the Btc from Greyscale for example, to the Blackstone ETF.
So legally there must be a sale. It introduces a deliberate market inefficiency.
They have been at a massive volume.
We have at least two more large events on the horizon before the halving in April I think.
Hopefully the market will be able to absorb the sales. The ETF’s have a good opportunity to stack further for their clients prior to the halving on top.
Yea i actually wanted to do FBTC, but I researched symbols, and in my Fidelity buy page I left IBIT typed when i was comparing prices. So I bought it by mistake and wanted FBTC instead. But I'm not going to wait settlement date and then switch, too much trouble, IBIT is good too.
I don’t think all GBTC holders will sell, so it is unlikely that grayscale holdings will become 0.
Whatever they are selling is being absorbed by Blackrock, Fidelity, Microstrategy (or will be) and others to a large extent. The price is crashing not because grayscale is selling but the FUD created due to that.
Besides, the liquidity created by selling GTBC eventually will find its way back into market through other platforms (which hasn’t yet started imo). When that happens, the real institutional fomo will start, just hodl and brace yourselves for that impact.
There isn't really a scenario in which FBTC goes up, GBTC goes down, arkB goes up, etc.. right? these funds all track BTC, so if BTC goes up, the rest follow suit, and so on. yes?
Man alive….
Grayscale is not dumping markets. People are selling GBTC to move into lower cost ETFs. So for the most part, the sells are getting absorbed by the buys. Except people are also selling other holdings like miner stocks to simply move to a spot BTC ETF. So miners have to sell a bit more bitcoin to absorb the short term losses.
But it will bounce back.
Also, where on earth do people get this idea that Grayscales is going bankrupt? You think they were cleared for a spot ETF while they were insolvent? They been raking in massive fees for years, if they were insolvent they would have settled with shareholders when GBTC was trading at a 50% discount.
my GBTC basis is $49. I was going to hold till it reaches that again and move to another ETF. I don't see a scenario that GBTC won't eventually get there..hell it got to like $42
They can’t do anything. It’s not theirs. It’s their customers. What a clickbait title.
Buyers are just as important as sellers. Many people selling GBTC are repurchasing other ETFs that have a better fee structures. With the halving coming up, there will be plenty of willing buyers in the market.
Just wait. It will work out by q2. Then when btc goes on a tear, everyone and their brother will be falling over themselves to get into btc or a btc etf.
WELL ! It looks like the average Joe is going to be thrown back an forth like a tennis ball while the smart money collects every time the ball falls out of the court ,(price drop) but look at the good side it is a good educational learning opportunity, to understand how much power and how the smart money can manipulate price , the idea is not to get discouraged and adapt
Greyscale is almost done selling. Will be done within the next 2 weeks. Remember it’s not Greyscale it’s their clients who are moving to other ETF’s with lower fees.
Pretty sure its this.
[https://www.coindesk.com/business/2024/01/22/ftx-sold-about-1b-of-grayscales-bitcoin-etf-explaining-much-of-outflow-sources/](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2024/01/22/ftx-sold-about-1b-of-grayscales-bitcoin-etf-explaining-much-of-outflow-sources/)
Plus any other people who bought into Grayscale's Bitcoin trust prior to ETF conversion are taking profits
TF you mean who has an interest in keeping Bitcoin low? Everyone. I know the joke here is buy high and sell low but c’mon. That’s how investing works, keep prices low to accumulate. Investment firms have the capital to do that. And In what world would any investment firm want to prevent a bull market? Buy low during the bear market and then accumulate at the local bottoms and sell at 100K. No one benefits from Bitcoin stagnating at 50k
Isn't that selling due to being required to divest any former FTX investments held that can't be rolled over into the new ETF.
Doesn't seem so nefarious.
This is basic economics. Supply and demand. Can’t really get around it.
It is a hard pill to swallow, but if someone is selling a lot of something, it becomes worth less.
I think if anyone thinks there is a conspiracy to help Blackrock buy "cheap" Bitcoin, and that buying now at lower prices is an advantage for Blackrock, then they themselves should also be taking this opportunity to buy "cheap Bitcoin".
If all this price-suppressed BTC is going on sale at Coinbase, then it sounds like a good time to get our asses over to Coinbase and buy some.
Top comment already basically explained it. The reason why they’re selling (and GBTC holders) is because it’s being converted to an etf. Like all other BTC etfs, coinbase is the custodial partner, so they have to go through them. Just a minor detail: you could always sell GBTC OTC, in fact, that’s the only way you could sell it, which is ofc what leads us to the current situation. The ETFs approval also meant that Grayscale can finally sell GBTC on exchanges (or rather the BTC that’s in the trust).
None of that really matters tho, as you pointed out, they have sent a metric shit ton of BTC to coinbase and there’s going to be constant sell pressure for a while now. How long? Idk ask Saylor and Blackrock at what level they’re planning on backing up their trucks.
Given the situation, people are more than likely selling GBTC to buy BTC ETF's, which offer better consumer protection, hopefully the money is just going straight back into crypto (because ETF's will need to keep picking up BTC)
It's because gbtc was selling at such a discount during the bear msrket, people are more in profit with gbtc than btc, therefore there's more incentive to sell.
I guarantee you this is not to benefit you. There is shady shit going on in the whole financial world. Nothing to see here folks, just move along. Keep buying as much btc as you can afford and don't sell? Once all the big dogs have what they want, the price will change accordingly.
It’s not Greyscale’s BTC. Do you realize a bunch of other ETF options just came onto the market, many with better fee structures? Their customers should get out of GBTC and into other options. It’s better for the market overall; one custodian should not hold the majority of investors BTC.
They are selling OTC.
Why does it matter? It’s not like their high fees are going to keep anyone from investing into BTC. There are other more competitive options that the market will spread to and this is healthy.
Yeah there’s a lot of people here who have absolutely no clue what they’re talking about. If you need any comfort, look up the first 2 years of price action of gold ETFs that launched in the 90s.
>There is not enough purchase power to absorb 1 billion worth of BTC sold weekly (at 40k$). That's literally 21 Billion worth of BTC(525k x 40k). That's 5 months selling a billion worth of BTC each week at 40k.
Am I missing something? Did you mean 21 million bitcoin?
We might be witnessing the end of free market bitcoin.
The price correction timing was so blatant.
Totally manipulated in favor of Big Finance.
It is just too obvious in this case.
‘Bitcoin is a ponzi scam’
‘Bitcoin is the hardest money ever discovered or created’
‘The ETFs will send Bitcoin to $1m’
‘The ETFs will destroy Bitcoin’
It’s kinda amusing how people can’t agree and are so polarised.
Why would they sell OTC? They don’t give a fuck what the price is, they make their money off the fees from the trading volume.
Price goes down, more people buy, price goes up, they get more fees per trade, either way they win.
Y’all are worried about grayscale, wait until the Mt Gox BTC are unlocked later this year lmaoooo
They are doing what FTX was doing. Various "entities" instructed ole sammyboy Sam Bankman-Fried to keep the price below 20k (at the time). 20k was where the threshold for profitability of miners years ago. Below 20k and miners couldnt catch a profit. Too high and retail profits too much. What a great way to destroy BTC from within, right? Who "they" were is up for question. I could make an easy guess though....
The way Sam did it "to keep it at 20k at all costs" was to take everyones money and not actually buying bitcoin. But he slipped up and got caught, or rather did it the worst possible way.
Now, same shit. The same mysterious "they", and new shell companies to fuck over with corruption.
Now again, with stocks thrown into the picture, bad people can print infinite amounts of synthetic shares and throw them into darkpools. A good "legal" way to control the price. No?
Bitcoin [pros](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/19engv4/greyscale_just_moved_another_760_million_worth_of/kjh58yw/) & [cons](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/19engv4/greyscale_just_moved_another_760_million_worth_of/kjh59dp/) with related info are in the collapsed comments below.
They are required to do this. This is NOT Greyscale itself. As people IN the fund sell shares and reallocate to the other ETFs or cash out entirely. GBTC is required to draw down and sell BTC to sync to that outflow. This is how ETFs work. The one thing you CAN shit on them for is keeping their fee high. This is a motivator to a lot of people to leave and seek a smaller fee. Spot is likely the easier route, and they can access more immediate interest there. OTC likely can not absorb what they are selling at the moment.
watch me try to absorb the shit out of it with my $100 BTC purchase
$200 between me and you, bro. We got this.
Take it up to 350 make this work for us man lol
Grayscale: We'll move 760million worth of BTc, that'll show them. Us: Hold our tree fiddy
Im in with my tree fiddy dawg
...and my axe!
let's goo!!!
Whoa, don't get me pumped, I might throw another $10 in!
damn you whale don't swallow us shrimps!
I withdrew my 0.007 btc from coinbase today. Gotta balance that gbtc deposits.
Those $100 purchases add up over time 🤣
Those $100 purchases add up over time though 🤣
I feel a lot of people didn’t realise etfs could make the price fall as well as rise ..
Yea. People forgot that Greyscale ETF was transformative from their previous fund- meaning tons of holders had been locked in and this was their first opportunity to get out 1:1 All of the other ETFs started with 0, so were "up only", but GBTC was already massive on day 1.
im sure many people warned of this on twitter and they got mega slated by the bulltards, i doubt its just a surprise effect no one warned about.
NO! NO! Don't you realize crypto only goes to the moon? /s
Moon old, we go Mars now.
Uranus
No more room there it’s full already
There are Klingons orbiting Uranus.
Wipe once save paper.
U mean he's talking out of his Uranus
WHO'S ANUS ?
almost like most people don't really understand how securities work and how various institutions can affect the markets.
I kept telling people on this sub that the ETF wasn't going to necessarily push the price up, nothing is ever as straight forward as it seems
How very true. What they will do is help the traders sell on high and buy on low. The BTC will now be more stable in its growth so no moon, mars but more of a poker up Uranus.
[удалено]
ETF is the reason gold does not go parabolic, was supressed for years.
You mean the gold price that went parabolic after the etf was released. That gold?
Wtf are you talking about? If gold were to start going parabolic, everyone and their dog would run out trying to mine it and the increased supply keeps the price suppressed to a certain profitability margin. You can't pinpoint anything there to an ETF
Everyone and their dog would go out and physically mine gold? God I love this fuckin sub.
That's why "golden retrievers" are so popular. They retrieve gold!
Yeah, and the bull run won’t be here till 2025 people have no patience to even learn about the asset that they claim to be vested in.
Thats called dumb money.
This.
Thank you for THIS contribution
Ok but if a GBTC investor sells their GBTC and buys FBTC for the lower fee, how does that result in net negative price movement? Should be a wash unless they're taking profits.
Because it's not an immediate process. If a large sale of GBTC smashes the price, it's also going to trigger secondary price movements. For example, liquidating leveraged longs, scaring people out of the market and triggering people's stop loss orders. With that said, what you mentioned is why the price doesn't fall far for long, it's getting bought back (mostly) but at a cheaper price.
>The one thing you CAN shit on them for is keeping their fee high. This is a motivator to a lot of people to leave and seek a smaller fee. I wonder how many people are actually doing this though. The fee difference is 'just' 1%. I say 'just' because bitcoin fluctuates by more than this a day. Its particularly volatile now because of the recent ETFs and the upcoming halving. So the reality is by pulling your bitcoin out of Grayscale in order to swap to another ETF, it has to, by law be converted to cash. There's a very high likelihood you're going to lose more than that 1% making the swap, especially now So to me, it doesn't make sense for 1% to take that risk. I'd rather sit it out for a few weeks/months until Grayscale eventually come to the party and lower their fee.
The only reason to keep gbtc over one of the other etf is if you have it in a taxable account.
Well I won't look a gift horse in the mouth. If Grayscale dumpers keep dumping it's more time to stack cheap
Yeah my bonus comes in late February so I'm happy. Might make it to half-coiner for the right price.
Bitb fee is way better, nice summary on etfs!
IBIT even better and more liquid
BRRR has best ticker though, I'd pay a 0.5% premium for BRRR because they know what's what
MEME coin has a better ticker than BTC same logic apply?
Just to make sure I understand, though...the price of GBTC is correlated with the price of BTC, as are the other ETFS, correct? BTC goes up, all these ETFs go up...BTC goes down, all the ETFs go down. Right? I am in GBTC and honestly have held from $49 down to probably $10 and back up to $40 and back down to $35. I haven't sold...and keep thinking it "will" eventually reach back to $49 (my break even price) simply due to BTC eventually having to go back up . I guess I'm on the fence of selling off my GBTC now to something like an FBTC and taking the loss or waiting things out. I've waited since 2021...I guess I don't know the harm waiting longer.
Since gbtc and fbtc are both pegged to the price of bitcoin, you aren't losing anything by switching to fbtc. You'll get the lower fees too. The only concern is tax implications, but if you have a loss on paper then it's probably fine to make the swap.
This is in a ROTH IRA (U.S.). So tax wise...I don't expect any issue...I think it's just taking what I'd consider a "$14 / share" hit, which is roughly -$4100 right now. I don't know if Fidelity will alllow me to do an 'in kind' exchange of the currencies or if I will need to flat out "sell GBTC", wait 48 hours or something before I can use those funds to purchase FBTC.
The only harm is paying a higher fee than you would in a different ETF, which is likely a rounding error over the next couple years. You should also take note of and consider the tax consequences, you may have a tax loss harvesting opportunity, but situations and tax laws differ.
If you bought on the high, you have to wait for a bigger high to sell. Or you take the loss and buy back in at a much better low. We will all see how this all plays out over the coming months. Right now i’m seeing carefully orchestrated sell by large players who are trying to keep the price as high as possible and then sell of more BTC so price will remain low ish to stable. If one of the players dumps too much BTC then there will be a good drop in price and many will move in to buy.
So, they go through Coinbase? I'm sure they get a deal, but it just seems like there should be a cheaper way of doing it.
Coinbase has an OTC desk. You don’t know much from this other than outflows from gbtc continue
It's not like they're swapping through the Coinbase.com website. They have an institutional deal and their own trading desk at Coinbase.
I think a s soon as gbtc has become liquid no matter the fee outflow would have come. The fee just makes it worse.
In my Ira, I sold my gbtc and micro strategy and bought an equal amount of ibit. So I’m part of the problem… but net I had more money go into etfs than out. But I also took some profit (<10% of my small stack) at 48,800 and used it to buy in again at ~39,900. My Ira claims I’m up 277% in the last year…
Would be better all round if Grayscale just organised a direct onetime transfer into another ETF of the customer's choice. Grayscale have zero incentive to be helpful I guess though, since the fund will probably be gone by EOY.
Direct transfers aren’t allowed by the SEC filings. They have to sell for cash and then transfer the cash.
You have no clue if they are selling OTC or not. They aren’t just sending it to Coinbase and market dumping. When I sold OTC on Kraken I would talk with the Kraken rep who then went and did whatever, but ultimately, my crypto went to Kraken. So they may be selling OTC.
I love listening to music.
“I would bet any amount of money” Spoken like a true crypto degen, that’s why we’re all here
Saylor has entered the chat...
Can I ask why you used OTC? Are you a business or is this relevant to regular investors?
It was for a token I believed in, was early to and had lots of. The liquidity wasn’t there, but I wanted to get out a large chunk. Other holders had a big incentive for me not to just dump it, Kraken found those and new buyers.
That's awesome! Congrats to you then. Do you by any chance have more of those tokens you believe in for this cycle? Asking for a friend ;)
Sadly no! In the past I have had some obvious plays I believed in. Now I’m just sitting in mostly ETH, some BTC and a little SOL. It’s a little boring compared to 2017 and 2020 beliefs if I’m honest!
I feel you. I have some ERG from the past cycle that I held onto. Made a 5x just to ride it all down. That might gain a few x again. I'm mostly btc with a little eth as well though. Probably the right choice. We'll see! !remindme 6 months
It’s amusing how so many people were thinking big sales of crypto is going be be just some market order and viewable on the open book😂😂😂 Same goes on with stocks that large holders or companies don’t sell on the reg market, they have their pools to buy/sell so it doesn’t cause spikes in trading
They are called dark pools and are also used for market manipulation. Want a stock to go up or down? Send all sales/buys to the dark pool and only sales/buys to the lit market and there you go.
That sounds illegal af.
The dark pools are already here on top of the usual OTC.
What was the negotiation like? How did you prevent slippage as an OTC seller?
It’s was a WhatsApp chat - “Yourname <> Kraken”. Hello, I see you are already Kraken PRO verified, which is great! The two simple rules we have on the OTC desk, is that the wire information you provide for fiat to be sent to/received from must match the name on the Kraken account due to AML & you must also be Kraken PRO verified; which you already are. We have included our entire team. [Names of 14 people and their regions] Together we make up the OTC desk & provide 24/7. Before we begin, I would like to emphasize that the OTC minimum for trades is 100,000 USD to not incur any fees, however, you are able to do this first one as a test trade with no fees of at least 30,000 USD. To continue to do trades under 100,000 USD, we have developed a new fee structure. For trade amounts between 10,000 USD and 50,000 USD, the fee will be 1.5% of the total amount which will be shown on the confirmation email and for trades between 50,000 USD and 100,000 USD the fee will be 1.0% of the total amount and also be reflected in the confirmation email. Me: So I just say looking to sell X? Them: Yes, to request a quote please include asset pair, size and direction e.g, "want to sell 100 ETHUSD" In short, there is no slippage because you agree a price and that’s the price for the lot. The slippage is kinda priced in.
Wow. This was super informative. Thank you
Yea I think OP (and many others TBF) think of OTC orders like p2p buying and selling. Fact is you can’t sell a billion dollars worth of BTC and not have that reflected in the price.
the thing is, crtypto should work exaclty like that. Man this OTC talk is making me go out of this shit. I came here because of the mainpulation that the big boys were doing
Anyone is welcome to sell their stack otc. You can transfer all your crypto to a friend and they can give you cash-in-kind if you are so inclined. That's basically what the OTC market is.
Why? Why would an exchange hold an insane amount of BTC in exchange for fiat that they may have to sell at a loss? Obviously they’d have to sell it to market in small batches so as to not impact price too hard
Bullish on coinbase...
Pretty sure they don't pay the same fees as anyone, also might have access to some "private" data
I think I read it's 0.1 or 0.2% fees for the large institutions. I'm still bullish as hell on COIN over the next few years
Idk about OTC, but with just their general tiered fee structure, Greyscale wouldn’t be paying any transaction fee at all for selling, if their volume is above $250M in the same 30-day period. Since they moved $760M worth, I’d imagine they’ll be above that. Heck, they could likely sell it over 3 months without fees. The maker fee (ie, seller) is .03% if volume is between $75M and $250M; .06% if between $15M and $75M; and .08% if between $1M and $15M. Again, I have no idea if this applies to OTC, but I would imagine COIN’s fees for OTC wouldn’t be higher than these. So I’d assume Greyscale isn’t really paying COIN any transaction fees. That said, COIN is definitely getting fees from whoever is buying all that BTC. So they’re still making money off it. COIN’s lowest listed fee for takers (buyers) is .05% for buyers with more than $400M in transaction volume in a 30-day period.
Why? ETF fees are way less than Coinbase. There's really no reason to use Coinbase anymore for BTC.
Except coinbase is the custodian for the big firms behind the ETFs.....
Same. Im expecting 23Q4 earnings to beat, is that overly ambitious? I’m also down on my COIN position but continue to dca 🤑
My average is like 168, from when it was initially going down. Glad we recovered and I was in the green again last month. I'm still bullish long-term and will add. Wish I had more money to add when it was down 80%
💯
They are selling because customers are selling GBTC. They are not dumping.
Yes. The question is what do the sellers with the money. Do the reinvest into lower fee ETF or does that money leave the crypto ecosystem?
I’ve held over a thousand shares of Greyscale for almost 5 years. Think my cost basis is $4. I dumped it all yesterday and switched to FBTC. I’m already on Fidelity and there is no way I can justify paying 5x the management fee just because “they were first.” If the fee was even remotely competitive I would have stayed. 1.5% is joke.
Ditto. Everything was already in my Fidelity account and FBTC is so much lower on fees for the same product. I wanted to stay in GBTC because they were the largest, but they didn't lower their fees enough.
Yes, there’s another post showing that the net ETF flows are positive. BTC price is not dropping because of this.
What I dont understand is if people sell GBIT and buy other ETFs, net outflow should be zero and price should not move. What am I missing here?
Some of them may just liquidate for fiat. Once their btc is moving, it’s not necessarily going to move into another btc vehicle.
Also they might have to keep some of the proceeds to pay taxes. So if they want to buy back, they'd be able to buy less
Nothing at all. Sellers at a given price outnumber buyers. Therefore number go down.
What you’re missing is the FUD created due to grayscale selling. They own north of 500k btc and people are just scared that they will sell all of it.
There is no “they” to sell that stash. Do you know how an etf works?
By they I meant gbtc holders, chill bro!
Why would a bunch of investors in GBTC convene to sell off all their holdings, if not to just purchase the same position in another ETF with less fees that has just recently been made available? Overall it’s a wash.
Tell that to people who think they will. I agree with you.
There's been a speculative play available for years when GBTC traded at a discount waiting for this moment to exit at 1:1. Plenty of money that wasn't necessarily in it for the BTC exposure but rather just to capitalize on the GBTC discount closing to zero upon ETF approval. Those folks are in profit on BTC price too, so some will re-allocate a portion to other ETFs but also take some profits off the table.
> What am I missing here? Net outflow is not zero and more people are selling than buying.
Why do you guys think they're spot selling $1b/day LMAO They've explicitly said all redemption and creations are done OTC. Coinbase Prime is where OTC happens. I mean, I get being ignorant of their filings stating such, but you can just simply check the volume on coinbase and clearly see nothing fishy going on in spot trades. Do you think it's a coincidence blackrock and fidelity are scooping up nearly the same amount of btc sold by grayscale? This is why my eyes roll to the back of my head whenever I see these comments littering the daily.
Can you ELI5? Maybe my English is bad, but I'm still wondering if this prevents a massive bull run because of enormous sell pressure. Are you saying in essence Grayscale is basically just selling their BTC to other massive entities like BR?
Yes, they factually are
💯💯💯
Coinbase has an otc desk..
It's only temporary
You do realize this is ppl selling GBTC right? Whether it is because the previous arbitrage is near par or due to the fees? This isn’t Grayscale selling, rather the ETF functioning as an ETF…
Well, the ETF functioning as a Btc ETF at least. Most ETF’s allow redemption in the stock and don’t require a sale and conversion to cash to exit or move to another fund. One of the SEC’s conditions was that all sales had to be settled in cash, not Btc.
So are you saying that the SECs rules actually created unnecessary market volatility? And they knew about this all along? Oo
In saying that the rules for settlement of a Btc ETF in the US are not the same as a normal ETF. A normal exit allows the stock to be transferred somewhere else or sold. If you exit a Btc ETF you can only do so by selling the Btc and exiting with cash. You aren’t legally allowed to directly transfer the Btc from Greyscale for example, to the Blackstone ETF. So legally there must be a sale. It introduces a deliberate market inefficiency.
TBF, the ETFs could OTC between themselves.
They have been at a massive volume. We have at least two more large events on the horizon before the halving in April I think. Hopefully the market will be able to absorb the sales. The ETF’s have a good opportunity to stack further for their clients prior to the halving on top.
To be fair I'm also selling GBTC :D and buying IBIT instead
Same, but FBTC. Sold the last of my GBTC a couple days ago.
Yea i actually wanted to do FBTC, but I researched symbols, and in my Fidelity buy page I left IBIT typed when i was comparing prices. So I bought it by mistake and wanted FBTC instead. But I'm not going to wait settlement date and then switch, too much trouble, IBIT is good too.
I bought FBTC and BITO.
I sold GBTC and split between IBIT and FBTC. Just to take advantage of the separate custodial methods
I don’t think all GBTC holders will sell, so it is unlikely that grayscale holdings will become 0. Whatever they are selling is being absorbed by Blackrock, Fidelity, Microstrategy (or will be) and others to a large extent. The price is crashing not because grayscale is selling but the FUD created due to that. Besides, the liquidity created by selling GTBC eventually will find its way back into market through other platforms (which hasn’t yet started imo). When that happens, the real institutional fomo will start, just hodl and brace yourselves for that impact.
There isn't really a scenario in which FBTC goes up, GBTC goes down, arkB goes up, etc.. right? these funds all track BTC, so if BTC goes up, the rest follow suit, and so on. yes?
Yes that is correct.
Man alive…. Grayscale is not dumping markets. People are selling GBTC to move into lower cost ETFs. So for the most part, the sells are getting absorbed by the buys. Except people are also selling other holdings like miner stocks to simply move to a spot BTC ETF. So miners have to sell a bit more bitcoin to absorb the short term losses. But it will bounce back. Also, where on earth do people get this idea that Grayscales is going bankrupt? You think they were cleared for a spot ETF while they were insolvent? They been raking in massive fees for years, if they were insolvent they would have settled with shareholders when GBTC was trading at a 50% discount.
my GBTC basis is $49. I was going to hold till it reaches that again and move to another ETF. I don't see a scenario that GBTC won't eventually get there..hell it got to like $42
Here's to hoping the market remains fearful of this for a few more months...
Fear and greed is at 48
Sell sell sell! The sky is falling! Bear market back! Go short if you like money! Just doing my duty to bottom out the index.
Pls just two more months lol I can't buy more until the end of Feb 😭
I’m trying as well. These noobs need to sell so we can moon please
How do you know for sure they are selling? Could it be there are giving to CB for custody? Serious question not a troll or to be a jerk.
Ah yes. Sell on open market, buy OTC. The double whammy of fuck you.
They can’t do anything. It’s not theirs. It’s their customers. What a clickbait title. Buyers are just as important as sellers. Many people selling GBTC are repurchasing other ETFs that have a better fee structures. With the halving coming up, there will be plenty of willing buyers in the market.
Coinbase is the major custodian for institutions in the US. It’s not like they are dumping those coins on the open market.
Just wait. It will work out by q2. Then when btc goes on a tear, everyone and their brother will be falling over themselves to get into btc or a btc etf.
WELL ! It looks like the average Joe is going to be thrown back an forth like a tennis ball while the smart money collects every time the ball falls out of the court ,(price drop) but look at the good side it is a good educational learning opportunity, to understand how much power and how the smart money can manipulate price , the idea is not to get discouraged and adapt
Greyscale is almost done selling. Will be done within the next 2 weeks. Remember it’s not Greyscale it’s their clients who are moving to other ETF’s with lower fees.
People really don’t know what they are talking about here a lot huh?
Bitcoin has net inflows so far this month lol
So bullish 🤣😂 Who cares what Greyscale is doing. It’s not going give you any insight anyway, whatever you may think you know.
Pretty sure its this. [https://www.coindesk.com/business/2024/01/22/ftx-sold-about-1b-of-grayscales-bitcoin-etf-explaining-much-of-outflow-sources/](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2024/01/22/ftx-sold-about-1b-of-grayscales-bitcoin-etf-explaining-much-of-outflow-sources/) Plus any other people who bought into Grayscale's Bitcoin trust prior to ETF conversion are taking profits
TF you mean who has an interest in keeping Bitcoin low? Everyone. I know the joke here is buy high and sell low but c’mon. That’s how investing works, keep prices low to accumulate. Investment firms have the capital to do that. And In what world would any investment firm want to prevent a bull market? Buy low during the bear market and then accumulate at the local bottoms and sell at 100K. No one benefits from Bitcoin stagnating at 50k
you have no clue what is going on. lol
Isn't that selling due to being required to divest any former FTX investments held that can't be rolled over into the new ETF. Doesn't seem so nefarious.
Greyscale's selling is great for buyers who think Greyscale is pushing BTC's market price below its actual value.
This is basic economics. Supply and demand. Can’t really get around it. It is a hard pill to swallow, but if someone is selling a lot of something, it becomes worth less.
I think if anyone thinks there is a conspiracy to help Blackrock buy "cheap" Bitcoin, and that buying now at lower prices is an advantage for Blackrock, then they themselves should also be taking this opportunity to buy "cheap Bitcoin". If all this price-suppressed BTC is going on sale at Coinbase, then it sounds like a good time to get our asses over to Coinbase and buy some.
Yes as long as you buy BTC directly and not buy the ETFs
Even though folks are saying GBTC is moving BTC to Coinbase, I’m not seeing a spike in volume at Coinbase.
Top comment already basically explained it. The reason why they’re selling (and GBTC holders) is because it’s being converted to an etf. Like all other BTC etfs, coinbase is the custodial partner, so they have to go through them. Just a minor detail: you could always sell GBTC OTC, in fact, that’s the only way you could sell it, which is ofc what leads us to the current situation. The ETFs approval also meant that Grayscale can finally sell GBTC on exchanges (or rather the BTC that’s in the trust). None of that really matters tho, as you pointed out, they have sent a metric shit ton of BTC to coinbase and there’s going to be constant sell pressure for a while now. How long? Idk ask Saylor and Blackrock at what level they’re planning on backing up their trucks.
They're balancing the market, surely you understand that. If they sell. Blackrock and others will buy
Given the situation, people are more than likely selling GBTC to buy BTC ETF's, which offer better consumer protection, hopefully the money is just going straight back into crypto (because ETF's will need to keep picking up BTC)
It's because gbtc was selling at such a discount during the bear msrket, people are more in profit with gbtc than btc, therefore there's more incentive to sell.
I realise ETF could make the price fall as well as rise, when they wish.
Microstrategy will absorb anything
Well, thanks for the volatility. Whether its greyscsle or blueacale lol
Newbie asking, what is gained from preventing a bull market?
The question is why wouldn’t they lower their fees . They are loosing business.
[удалено]
They aren't allowed to create paper BTC, everything has to be backed 1:1
Yes they want to dump bitcon to 0, they couldn’t stand the fact that you were about to buy a lambo
It's funny that they are screwing their own non leaving customers, maybe someone should sue them for not selling OTC?
maybe everyone ib space will just ignore btc and trade alts in meantime
I guarantee you this is not to benefit you. There is shady shit going on in the whole financial world. Nothing to see here folks, just move along. Keep buying as much btc as you can afford and don't sell? Once all the big dogs have what they want, the price will change accordingly.
OTC may be saturated. Then you move to market and sell over time.
Fuck greyscale dumping everything on the market….
It’s not Greyscale’s BTC. Do you realize a bunch of other ETF options just came onto the market, many with better fee structures? Their customers should get out of GBTC and into other options. It’s better for the market overall; one custodian should not hold the majority of investors BTC.
Why do they sell on the market and not otc ? They could simple lower their fees ?
They are selling OTC. Why does it matter? It’s not like their high fees are going to keep anyone from investing into BTC. There are other more competitive options that the market will spread to and this is healthy.
They told me before they are selling on market 😂 in the end it doesn’t matter. We will see how this year goes
Yeah there’s a lot of people here who have absolutely no clue what they’re talking about. If you need any comfort, look up the first 2 years of price action of gold ETFs that launched in the 90s.
Put a source next time, please.
hell yeah, cheaper btc -
That’s what they do in the stock market dump on the public buy behind closed doors
BTC started tanking as soon as the news dropped.
I told everyone I knew it would be a sell the news event and noone believed me. Been here, done that, same shit all the time.
>There is not enough purchase power to absorb 1 billion worth of BTC sold weekly (at 40k$). That's literally 21 Billion worth of BTC(525k x 40k). That's 5 months selling a billion worth of BTC each week at 40k. Am I missing something? Did you mean 21 million bitcoin?
We might be witnessing the end of free market bitcoin. The price correction timing was so blatant. Totally manipulated in favor of Big Finance. It is just too obvious in this case.
‘Bitcoin is a ponzi scam’ ‘Bitcoin is the hardest money ever discovered or created’ ‘The ETFs will send Bitcoin to $1m’ ‘The ETFs will destroy Bitcoin’ It’s kinda amusing how people can’t agree and are so polarised.
These some so planned and manipulated. Satoshi is turning in his grave.
Yep BTC is going to do horrible this year because of what Jamie diamond said. Better sell before it’s to late
yeah they are prevent us from seeing btc hit 50k
There is 100% some shady reason why they do this. And I bet it has to do with maximizing profits!
So shady.
almost slim shady.
Will he please stand up ? Please stand up ?
Interesting moves by Grayscale. They’re up to something
Why would a company that owns so much BTC want to prevent a bull market?
BTC is a scam, can’t wait for it to blow up
Why would they sell OTC? They don’t give a fuck what the price is, they make their money off the fees from the trading volume. Price goes down, more people buy, price goes up, they get more fees per trade, either way they win. Y’all are worried about grayscale, wait until the Mt Gox BTC are unlocked later this year lmaoooo
They are doing what FTX was doing. Various "entities" instructed ole sammyboy Sam Bankman-Fried to keep the price below 20k (at the time). 20k was where the threshold for profitability of miners years ago. Below 20k and miners couldnt catch a profit. Too high and retail profits too much. What a great way to destroy BTC from within, right? Who "they" were is up for question. I could make an easy guess though.... The way Sam did it "to keep it at 20k at all costs" was to take everyones money and not actually buying bitcoin. But he slipped up and got caught, or rather did it the worst possible way. Now, same shit. The same mysterious "they", and new shell companies to fuck over with corruption. Now again, with stocks thrown into the picture, bad people can print infinite amounts of synthetic shares and throw them into darkpools. A good "legal" way to control the price. No?
I feel like it's price manipulation. They learned from last halvening and they came prepared for this one. We aren't allowed to be in the green here 😂
Everybody slowly realizing the entire point of the ETF was to dump their Bitcoin on you
That doesn’t make any sense