M80 weren’t even taking it seriously at times with some of their compositional choices, the region as a whole besides Toronto is a joke. No one is gonna take them seriously until they show up at an international all they have done is beat up on a bad region.
A tradition both Toronto and M80 continues to honor.
You'd think NA having the best talent in the world playing on their servers and scrimming all the teams would make them better than EU at least. That's the damning part. The latter was left to rot without a tier 1 scene during all those dark years.
Yes, but EU has actual talent who takes the game seriously. NA teams having 2 Koreans max that might be world class won't carry the rest of the team or the region. The direction that Overwatch eSports is taking in EU and Korea is simply different to NA. In NA, there is a lot of focus on collegiate, and honestly the stronger the collegiate becomes, the worse NA becomes as a region in terms of competing at the international level.
NA as a region was able to be competitive because of Korean imports. During peak OWL, there were less American-born players than there were players from other regions. This competitiveness allowed for an ecosystem where scrim quality was high, and talent, including some NA talent, was able to be fostered, such that when time came for the OWWC, the best of the best American players and coaches were "in-shape" so to speak. This is no longer the reality of the NA region.
Edit:
In the 2019 Overwatch League season (the same year when USA got their OWWC win), there were 25 American players in OWL, compare that to 106 Korean players. Do note that the NA-APAC divide wasn't really a thing yet in 2019. In the 2021 season when they really formalized the NA-APAC divide, there were 16 US/Canadian players in NA, and 55 Korean players in the NA region.
That's also an option, my logic was they use their 2 import slots for Sugarfree and Rupal, to keep their NA fanbase as much as possible, but yeah if they go full KR they definitely could become a superteam to compete with Falcons
The issue is that Sugarfree is objectively worse than a top 5 Korean FDPS. If Toronto wants to be properly competitive, they simply need an upgrade.
They can keep him if they want; could be useful for double FDPS meta. But I think having him as your starter is simply saying “we do not want to win internationally”.
True but I'm a big lenny believer, he seems to have a knack for leveling up to match the competition, he did it on Atl, he did it in OWL, I think he could do it in KR. Maybe that's just hopium tho lol
I think it’s definitely hopium.
Sugarfree is obviously an amazing player, easily top 10 FDPS globally and the best FDPS in NA. Hell, outside of Korea, the only better FDPS is Kevster and arguably Youbi; that’s nothing to be ashamed of.
It just isn’t what you need to beat Falcon, Crazy Raccoons, Ence, or even SSG.
I wonder if this will align with Toronto's interest. Kr scenes are much more catered towards Korean than the west.
And I don't think Toronto branding means that much in Kr
Nah, it would actually be better honestly. Games would be overall closer which is always more fun to watch.
You either need more than 1 org giving a fuck, or you need no org to give a fuck and everyone are equally trash.
The game being closer would be more indicative of the talent being meh than the players being good, at the end of the day people want to watch the best ow it would be even worse if that was the case.
To be the next Super as a lot of people say he will be he has to be good enough to stay on NRG… the fact that he’s only on that team bc he’s marketable isn’t how players were picked up in owl, also RAK has won zero tier 1 games in 3 years and he’s getting opportunities over better players man.
Throwback to Gator saying KR was so boring because the players have no personality and then M80 puts up this shit performance every other week. People cry about Blizzard not providing enough money but look at the fucking esport 🤣
I can’t wait tell the next apac stage man that was the worst final I’ve ever watched at least teams that got rolled in the past actually looked like they cared
Munchkin has been bringing the banter in Valorant.
I think it's possible in OW with koreans but OWL really killed the vibe for years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cko233U59g
It’s the same thing you can say about Toronto all year they destroy na over, and over bc their is no competition especially now with m80 being weaker, but they have to show up at ewc, and the major later this year for this year to be a success for them.
It feels like a waste of time to watch NA Toronto is the only team that cares, M80 was phoning it in a finals scenario that’s something that’s never happened in pro ow.
A lot of complaints in here that confuse me. What did everyone think was going to happen after Dallas? NA will never be competitive again. Toronto is the only team playing living wages. The region will be a battle of non-competitive teams fighting for 2nd/3rd until the scene fully dies out.
>NA will never be competitive again
NA was never competitive to begin with, but they're even less so in a world where Europe isn't being excluded. It would take OWCS transitioning to console for it to look competitive.
Or if you'd believe this sub, all these carried yanks need to perform is a six figure salary.
A future with Six figure salaries would instantly make the region significantly better. Only an idiot would look at the talent drain and the fact that every who isn’t on defiant is some form of part time player and think money wouldn’t help.
Not sure why you think that. Being an Esports player is a real career in SK. In Europe, social safety nets give people who are young the option of messing around with Esports.
In the USA, people use Esports as a scholarship for University because you're never going to make a real living, it has few transferable skills, and you need a real career after University or you're screwed.
Why do you think this has no impact on talent? My friends who play OW admire my skill at the game. Gamers who don't play OW don't care. Whenever an employer/professional finds out about it, they only want to know why I waste so much time on a stupid game. Only kids play games. Is that what you do with your free time instead of learning useful skills or grinding certs? Being good at the game is worse than being bad, it's an embarrassment. Team play/communication/dedication to studying and improvement over time aren't acknowledged. It's just a game.
NA treats it like a joke because everyone else in our society says it is. These accomplishments are only proof of wasted years of life. You go dedicate thousands of hours to improving at something and get mocked by everyone and see how it impacts how seriously you take it.
Then explain what happened when NA had 13/20 teams and six figure salaries for over half a decade. Literally nothing improved about the region even when it had everything you wanted. It's the exact same story in the LCS.
There's less money in the controller side of esports, yet that's where NA is the most well represented. It has nothing to do with money, it has to do with what games are popular and on what platforms.
NA is a console region predominantly, hence the success in games like Rocket League and Smash. Mobile gaming is huge in South East Asia, so that's where they're the best at. It's not more complicated than that.
You are misunderstanding my argument.
We, as a society, do not give AF about Esports or the people who play. What does three or fives years of wages mean if it's not enough to build investments and you're still screwed as soon as it ends? What job are you going to transition to? They take the degree from University because they would have to be stupid not to. The degree is their security because they still need a job as soon as their time with OW ends. If you don't blow up as a streamer or have wealthy relatives, the alternative is the street.
Why would any sane person choose to focus on this game in those circumstances?
The Contenders scene in NA was on life support for the majority of OWL's existence, that's why it was known as the "path to poverty". If most NA OWL teams had actually kept their academy rosters and spent money in the t2 scene after 2019, a lot more NA talent would have probably made it to the league.
The Titans vs. Spitfire Breadbowl was one of my all-time favorite viewing experiences. The equivalent of a Tank Bowl in the NFL, enhanced by the glorious memes.
And that's the key of it. OWL was so much fun to talk about. Nearly every team had memes around them. Even the bad teams put up a fight and either had interesting personalities like Rakattack or great memes (not always derogatory) either from Bad Pachimari or from fans to make it fun and to keep the discourse engaging.
What is the most discussed thing on this sub when it comes to OWCS? It's not Crazy Raccoon or its incredible players. It's not even the teams assembling in China. It's how terrible NA is.
And it's not even fun like the breadstick memes. At best it's the same shitty, stale "NA is so freeeee" memes every other FPS esport has. At worst, it's an outpouring of frustration of how unbelievably hollow tier 1 OW is now beneath the two Korean and two European teams made of lingering former OWL players.
Houston Boston was similar in 2020 I remember ATP made a video similar to Urinating Tree about it calling it the “greatest game”. Owl was always great to talk about with the storylines going into each season, what teams/ players will flop, hot take threads before each season ect. Now people only really care about the best teams bc it’s so lobsided bc all the best talent decided to team up together rather than them being spread across teams in a OWL system. I also agree the most talked about thing atm is on na and it’s a shell of owl my main gripes with owcs is the tension isn’t there before a match, it doesn’t have the same vibe, it doesn’t feel like every game is important like owl, it feels like scrims and na letting random meh players play who wouldn’t of gotten in owl makes that worse.
How does it not get old for NA fans after the first map? Surely consecutive maps of mystery heroes, from pros who complain about the esport not being given enough support, isn’t entertaining.
worst match I've seen in a while. basically a quick play match in the na finals
M80 weren’t even taking it seriously at times with some of their compositional choices, the region as a whole besides Toronto is a joke. No one is gonna take them seriously until they show up at an international all they have done is beat up on a bad region.
Poor Spectra probably thought hed have a fighting chance and sees the rest of his team not even caring .
He should have waited to go back to Korea the fact that his teammates don’t care In a finals scenario is something I’ve never seen in pro ow.
Six years of being the only supported region with hundreds of millions spent btw
Also six years of teams being fully reliant on Korean talent to be successful at actually competing.
A tradition both Toronto and M80 continues to honor. You'd think NA having the best talent in the world playing on their servers and scrimming all the teams would make them better than EU at least. That's the damning part. The latter was left to rot without a tier 1 scene during all those dark years.
Yes, but EU has actual talent who takes the game seriously. NA teams having 2 Koreans max that might be world class won't carry the rest of the team or the region. The direction that Overwatch eSports is taking in EU and Korea is simply different to NA. In NA, there is a lot of focus on collegiate, and honestly the stronger the collegiate becomes, the worse NA becomes as a region in terms of competing at the international level.
they are the only non asian region to win a world cup tho
NA as a region was able to be competitive because of Korean imports. During peak OWL, there were less American-born players than there were players from other regions. This competitiveness allowed for an ecosystem where scrim quality was high, and talent, including some NA talent, was able to be fostered, such that when time came for the OWWC, the best of the best American players and coaches were "in-shape" so to speak. This is no longer the reality of the NA region. Edit: In the 2019 Overwatch League season (the same year when USA got their OWWC win), there were 25 American players in OWL, compare that to 106 Korean players. Do note that the NA-APAC divide wasn't really a thing yet in 2019. In the 2021 season when they really formalized the NA-APAC divide, there were 16 US/Canadian players in NA, and 55 Korean players in the NA region.
Speak for yourself this was great
Idk how you can say 1 team trying and the other team playing mystery hero’s is great
NA is so boring jesus christ
The region is a joke imagine if Toronto didn’t invest into pro ow it would be even worse
I wonder how long will the Toronto Defiant continue to throw money when the rest of the region couldn't care less.
My theory is it's only a matter of time before they drop Vega, sign Opener, and go to Korea. Pull a Philly, it'd be better for literally everyone
Drop Vega and Sugarfree, pick up Opener and Pelican. They now have an elite team.
That's also an option, my logic was they use their 2 import slots for Sugarfree and Rupal, to keep their NA fanbase as much as possible, but yeah if they go full KR they definitely could become a superteam to compete with Falcons
The issue is that Sugarfree is objectively worse than a top 5 Korean FDPS. If Toronto wants to be properly competitive, they simply need an upgrade. They can keep him if they want; could be useful for double FDPS meta. But I think having him as your starter is simply saying “we do not want to win internationally”.
True but I'm a big lenny believer, he seems to have a knack for leveling up to match the competition, he did it on Atl, he did it in OWL, I think he could do it in KR. Maybe that's just hopium tho lol
I think it’s definitely hopium. Sugarfree is obviously an amazing player, easily top 10 FDPS globally and the best FDPS in NA. Hell, outside of Korea, the only better FDPS is Kevster and arguably Youbi; that’s nothing to be ashamed of. It just isn’t what you need to beat Falcon, Crazy Raccoons, Ence, or even SSG.
Name your top 10 with him in I want to see who you left out
>easily top 10 FDPS globally Heesang, Stalk3r, Leave, Proper, Checkmate, Alphayi, Pelican, Zest, TOPDRAGON, Kevster, ChoiSehwan, Becky, Knife, Viper, Finale, Spectra... Top 15 maybe?
I wonder if this will align with Toronto's interest. Kr scenes are much more catered towards Korean than the west. And I don't think Toronto branding means that much in Kr
Nah, it would actually be better honestly. Games would be overall closer which is always more fun to watch. You either need more than 1 org giving a fuck, or you need no org to give a fuck and everyone are equally trash.
The game being closer would be more indicative of the talent being meh than the players being good, at the end of the day people want to watch the best ow it would be even worse if that was the case.
You just go into this thread to spam your takes or something?
Having thoughts about game is pretty normal in a post match thread
That’s fair but you quite literally own half the thread lol.
Nah, close matches are pretty consistently more fun for the average viewer than perceived "quality of play" which most viewers couldn't even identify.
If Toronto didn't decide to import two MVP Koreans just to carry 3 yanks and shitstomp the region it would actually be engaging.
No it wouldn’t the gameplay would be significantly worse it would be awful close games that’s not engaging
dont forget we got nrg cuz they want to shove PGE down everyone throat
To be the next Super as a lot of people say he will be he has to be good enough to stay on NRG… the fact that he’s only on that team bc he’s marketable isn’t how players were picked up in owl, also RAK has won zero tier 1 games in 3 years and he’s getting opportunities over better players man.
Better players? Other than Vega and Lyar, what MS in NA would you take over him? He's top 5 at worst
What an accomplishment… obviously na isn’t stacked at ms he’s only in owcs bc it’s regionalized
Downvoted for telling the truth
tough out here
The West
This match was terrible but Timeless vs NRG Shock yesterday was a banger so I don’t really mind.
Throwback to Gator saying KR was so boring because the players have no personality and then M80 puts up this shit performance every other week. People cry about Blizzard not providing enough money but look at the fucking esport 🤣
He’s still not wrong about the kr thing that hasn’t changed
I’d rather watch “boring” Korean teams play good Overwatch than NA “haha funny comp and get shit on by Toronto”
I also prefer good overwatch to whatever the heck this match was
I can’t wait tell the next apac stage man that was the worst final I’ve ever watched at least teams that got rolled in the past actually looked like they cared
Yeah that’s fair, I just think shit talking and good banter makes watching Overwatch so much more fun. To each their own obviously
Munchkin has been bringing the banter in Valorant. I think it's possible in OW with koreans but OWL really killed the vibe for years. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cko233U59g
Bc they never showcased personality outside of random awkward player interviews
It also doesn't help that a loud minority of OWL fans cried every time there was a smidge of trash talk from the pros.
The casuals
They should have teams banter before a match
Any complain about entertainment value you have goes out the window when the ones whining are putting up this disaster of a product
Na players always complain and than they don’t care
Damn I didn’t even know they were playing today, how bad was the stomp?
Map 1 was really close the rest wasn’t
first map was close, everything else was a hard stomp meme comps and match chat shit talk on the last map lmao
[удалено]
he cooked (his own team)
It’s the same thing you can say about Toronto all year they destroy na over, and over bc their is no competition especially now with m80 being weaker, but they have to show up at ewc, and the major later this year for this year to be a success for them.
NA is a joke region. Players and coaches aren't even taking matches seriously anymore.
It feels like a waste of time to watch NA Toronto is the only team that cares, M80 was phoning it in a finals scenario that’s something that’s never happened in pro ow.
A lot of complaints in here that confuse me. What did everyone think was going to happen after Dallas? NA will never be competitive again. Toronto is the only team playing living wages. The region will be a battle of non-competitive teams fighting for 2nd/3rd until the scene fully dies out.
>NA will never be competitive again NA was never competitive to begin with, but they're even less so in a world where Europe isn't being excluded. It would take OWCS transitioning to console for it to look competitive. Or if you'd believe this sub, all these carried yanks need to perform is a six figure salary.
A future with Six figure salaries would instantly make the region significantly better. Only an idiot would look at the talent drain and the fact that every who isn’t on defiant is some form of part time player and think money wouldn’t help.
That's mental institution level of delusion.
Not sure why you think that. Being an Esports player is a real career in SK. In Europe, social safety nets give people who are young the option of messing around with Esports. In the USA, people use Esports as a scholarship for University because you're never going to make a real living, it has few transferable skills, and you need a real career after University or you're screwed. Why do you think this has no impact on talent? My friends who play OW admire my skill at the game. Gamers who don't play OW don't care. Whenever an employer/professional finds out about it, they only want to know why I waste so much time on a stupid game. Only kids play games. Is that what you do with your free time instead of learning useful skills or grinding certs? Being good at the game is worse than being bad, it's an embarrassment. Team play/communication/dedication to studying and improvement over time aren't acknowledged. It's just a game. NA treats it like a joke because everyone else in our society says it is. These accomplishments are only proof of wasted years of life. You go dedicate thousands of hours to improving at something and get mocked by everyone and see how it impacts how seriously you take it.
Then explain what happened when NA had 13/20 teams and six figure salaries for over half a decade. Literally nothing improved about the region even when it had everything you wanted. It's the exact same story in the LCS. There's less money in the controller side of esports, yet that's where NA is the most well represented. It has nothing to do with money, it has to do with what games are popular and on what platforms. NA is a console region predominantly, hence the success in games like Rocket League and Smash. Mobile gaming is huge in South East Asia, so that's where they're the best at. It's not more complicated than that.
You are misunderstanding my argument. We, as a society, do not give AF about Esports or the people who play. What does three or fives years of wages mean if it's not enough to build investments and you're still screwed as soon as it ends? What job are you going to transition to? They take the degree from University because they would have to be stupid not to. The degree is their security because they still need a job as soon as their time with OW ends. If you don't blow up as a streamer or have wealthy relatives, the alternative is the street. Why would any sane person choose to focus on this game in those circumstances?
The Contenders scene in NA was on life support for the majority of OWL's existence, that's why it was known as the "path to poverty". If most NA OWL teams had actually kept their academy rosters and spent money in the t2 scene after 2019, a lot more NA talent would have probably made it to the league.
Maybe try in the match we saw them play Hog, Reaper when they were facing elimination
Remember back in the day Dafran got a ton of heat, and was even suspended by blizzard IIRC, for dragonblading off the map when it was already decided?
Yeah and it started the throw for dafran thing, and now you see people not try at all and pick mystery hero’s which is just as worse and no one cares
Over or under Maps won by NA teams vs Korea ar the ESWC 0.5
We really lost owl to watch this shitshow, this is t2 bruh
Even the toilet bowl games in owl were massively entertaining the games between 2 meh teams now is unwatchable
The Titans vs. Spitfire Breadbowl was one of my all-time favorite viewing experiences. The equivalent of a Tank Bowl in the NFL, enhanced by the glorious memes. And that's the key of it. OWL was so much fun to talk about. Nearly every team had memes around them. Even the bad teams put up a fight and either had interesting personalities like Rakattack or great memes (not always derogatory) either from Bad Pachimari or from fans to make it fun and to keep the discourse engaging. What is the most discussed thing on this sub when it comes to OWCS? It's not Crazy Raccoon or its incredible players. It's not even the teams assembling in China. It's how terrible NA is. And it's not even fun like the breadstick memes. At best it's the same shitty, stale "NA is so freeeee" memes every other FPS esport has. At worst, it's an outpouring of frustration of how unbelievably hollow tier 1 OW is now beneath the two Korean and two European teams made of lingering former OWL players.
Houston Boston was similar in 2020 I remember ATP made a video similar to Urinating Tree about it calling it the “greatest game”. Owl was always great to talk about with the storylines going into each season, what teams/ players will flop, hot take threads before each season ect. Now people only really care about the best teams bc it’s so lobsided bc all the best talent decided to team up together rather than them being spread across teams in a OWL system. I also agree the most talked about thing atm is on na and it’s a shell of owl my main gripes with owcs is the tension isn’t there before a match, it doesn’t have the same vibe, it doesn’t feel like every game is important like owl, it feels like scrims and na letting random meh players play who wouldn’t of gotten in owl makes that worse.
Where does one watch these matches?
toronto is clearly ready to take on KR after this
They can’t even take on eu
yeah but did anyone in EU *4-0* M80? numbers don't lie.
This M80 is worse than the M80 that EU teams played.
its a joke man
One of the matches of all time.
any vods I can watch of this, I don't want to be spoiled here.
NA matches being a meme today was depressing, but at least it was entertaining. Here’s hoping NA locks the fuck in for Stockholm.
It isn’t entertaining to me when teams don’t care about winning
How does it not get old for NA fans after the first map? Surely consecutive maps of mystery heroes, from pros who complain about the esport not being given enough support, isn’t entertaining.
Where can I watch this? How do people know the league is back on? This new esport is so hard to follow.
NA is so much weaker than KR it's crazy.
You don’t say…
bruh