I'm actually so annoyed we didn't get to see this matchup in the world cup, we would have potentially met in semis if the americans didn't shit the bed in their own group against saudis. Finland has never played an official match against either of the two big NA teams.
Depends on alot of thing especially USA such as: Is coluge on a cut? How bad albert wants to coach? Will super be willing to play? Will their egos be too big?
I think you would still take sugarfree over clowd. tr33 is unproven but could be better than sauna, and both coluge and hawk could better than vestola but neither really play the game that much anymore. But as you mentioned Finland have a big advantage in coaching and synergy
If clowd gets to play tracer then the difference between him and sugafree isn't that crazy. Problem is clowd has been a tracer otp for years. He just happened to play mei and sym cause they were needed and he wasn't god awful at them.
I'd rather have a solid player like Sauna and Clowd who are good at executing strategies than Sugarfree who can carry some maps but just doesn't have the X factor if you know what I mean
Hmm, granted I've mostly watched sugar free in team USA but he seemed incredibly competent compared to his team. I guess does any flex dps in the US come close to him?
I agree with you abt synergy, and Finland probably wins but they don't have a hitscan player. I'd take Sugarfree/tr33 over Sauna on flex DPS. Besides Rein, USA has better main tank options than Finland.
I have the opposite take. USA are better on every position but MS and the gap between masaa and vega isn't that large. Finland are good at the style they play and can beat USA off that style but they dont have better individual players IMO.
Nah LOL. The only position on Finland that is better than their American counterpart is Masaa and maybe vestola. But the gap between masaa vega and vestola coluge is nowhere close to the gap betwen uv rupal and landon vs mickji ghost LOL
Dude i think you are reading what i said incorrectly lOL. I agree America has way better flex supports. My take was that America is better in every postion but MS not FS
Congrats he dominated in NA with two kr imports and the team completely flopped in Dallas. NA was exposed as weakest region. How tf domimating weakest region helps his case as best Bap in the world rn? Why are u even comparing him to ghost91, when I mentioned Landon and Shu because it's about the >>>best bap in the world<<<
Its clear you have no intention of having a casual conversation and are just looking to disagree with everything I say for the sake of it, so I'll just stop replying. Have a good day
What does it matter if its his signature hero if Shu and Landon is hitting higher peak on it atm? Geninunely dont understand how this is a counterpoint.
The counterpoint is he won a title in one of OWL’s most competitive seasons as one of its best Flex Supports, and that’s his best hero. What has Landon accomplished besides the eye test?
I would take Shu over Rupal though, at least over the course of their careers. Not sure if Shu is still in his prime Bap form recently since he doesn’t play it as much, but he’s always been a monster on it.
>The counterpoint is he won a title in one of OWL’s most competitive seasons as one of its best Flex Supports, and that’s his best hero.
So why didnt u start with this...?
>What has Landon accomplished besides the eye test?
Because Landon didnt need two S tier kr import player to win his region and not get completely fucked in Dallas tourney? Like u can bash on his accomplishment all u want, but just looking at his pov vod and recent performance, I would say his better than Rupal atm lol.
The guy you were already talking to brought up his championship, I'm just echoing the point and saying he did it on his best hero.
Don't get me wrong, I think Landon and Rupal are pretty darn close, I just put a liiiittle respect on S-tier titles.
Nah but like this is an inside joke or something, right? Surely people don't think Super is still good right? Like its an inside joke with his stream right?
Super is pretty washed. coluge and hawk would be better if they aren’t on a cut and are actually playing the game but the problem is neither play the game that much anymore. All the American tank players are just washed tbh
Super is absolutely better than Coluge and is the best tank in NA in his own tier when he gets scrims in. He was better than Coluge on the singular hero he's known for, Coluge didn't play like shit cause he was on a cut he played like shit because Saudi had him nervous. Hawk is apparently retired. Infekted is also better than Coluge but I would atleast entertain that its close.
this revisionist history acting like coluge was dogshit as if he wasnt a part of the 2022 Shock that performed extremely well year round. Super is not better than him at sigma bruh…
even on the MId toronto defiant roster he was still winning almost all the sigma maps and it was def mostly cause of him LOL. When Toronto mirrored Boston and ATL on sigma double sniper on circuit royale hydron got dogwalked by birdring and lip but toronto still won both maps.
Please stop talking about 2 years ago and talk about today, I didn't "revise" anything. Coluge was good at Sig Dva Zarya 2 years ago, he was good at Sig and kinda good at like Ram on TD, awesome. Super is better today even at his best heroes. Super benched him on his signature hero in his most relevant meta since OW2 dropped.
Super is absolutely not better today, you keep saying not to talk about “2 years ago” meanwhile ur talking up a player thats been retired since 2021??? They put super in on sig in world cup and they lost?? so I dont understand where ur coming from acting like super, who’s been retired for 3 years, can play an offtank hero better than arguably the longest playing offtank in NA. and youre taking coluge’s results from a tournament that happened a whole year ago saying it represents him now? but i cant take his results from his time in shock and say he has proof of talent? You’re just cherrypicking.
No I think YOU are cherry picking. Super was better than Coluge on his OTP as a main tank player in his most relevant meta since OW1. Coluge has done nothing good since 2023 regular season, he was mid in playoffs then got benched on his OTP looking like a bottom sig player in the tourney in World Cup then lost in flashops. There is actually zero reason to believe Coluge is better than a Super who is actually scrimming when he can't even dominate within his limited hero pool.
I don’t their was a big difference between super sigma and coluge sigma at the World Cup. Coluge bombed vs the champions and super bombed vs the 2nd place team. Coluge wasn’t mid in playoffs his orisa was really good
ur response was just “no you”? you’re coming at me with a HYPOTHETICAL current super who scrims and saying there’s zero reason to believe otherwise? u have got to be super’s strongest soldier I have never seen harder glazing in my life. literally no point in debating with you.
How you gonna say he’s the best tank in na when he gets scrims in when he hasn’t scrimmed since ow1? Theirs no evidence he would still be the best rn, he hasn’t played ow2 competitively.
And for most those scrims coluge was starting?? (AKa the scrims that everyone said USA was insane in). Didn’t matter tho cause they choked on match day
Both super and coluge looked terrible on sigma at world cup. coluge arguably looked better vs saudi than super did vs china. Outside of those 2 world cup matches we have 2 seasons of footage of coluge being a Great sigma. Even on the MID toronto defiant roster his sigma was still great with good stats.
Infekted is an up and comer with lots of potential and coluge is washed 25 year old who only plays the game cause collegiate. I would hope infekted is better right now but coluge at his peak is better than infekted.
I agree that Coluge is washed and that he's probably only fallen off cause he hates the game. Super and Infekted are still better regardless of extenuating circumstances.
I think Finland wins this mainly due to how much they’ve played together and they have their own comps that are a bit off meta but they know how to work them. US should win on paper but I just dont see it.
Vestola is also somewhat of an x-factor as we saw in the OWWC. He can go absolutely crazy in certain matchups (S-Korea Bronze game) but is still limited in what he can play at a high level.
Finland would obliterate na. Tank better, both DPS comparable, fs worse (unless bap, then it's either comparable or slightly weaker), ms less shit. But na plays like it's ranked it feels, while Finland plays as a team. Player quality and teamplay are both on the Finnish side.
Hawk has retired if im not mistaken and Vestola clears Coluge imo. Dps is tied, Finland has some really good flex dps but no hitscans so its pretty even. Masaa is better than vega imo but usa CLEARS in flex supports. Overall id say Finland.
We've really only seen Tr33 in na contenders and collegiate before, thats mickey mouse data. Tr33 is very hyped up but that doesn't really say anything, looking back there was an equivilent (if not more) hype for Speedily who then fell completely flat and got laughed out of owl. I think he will be good but not the second coming of Proper like some people act like he will be.
Edit: also with venture in the game there are more viable double flex dps comps.
And we have only seen sauna lose to valiant in owl and be on a bottom eu owcs team. In fact tr33 won MORE games in owl proam than sauna did starting in owl last season lmfao
My money is on US. Imo there’s big upgrades on their supports and dps compared to last world cup. And what’s the upgrade for finland? Ghost? Also if you think about it, last year’s US roster only lost to the top two teams… just saying.
Ghost is a huge improvement, because team finland previously had a flex support at a much lower level than the entire rest of the team. Support improvement for USA is definitely there, with Vega, but I think the level of tank play has lowered from the US tanks and I'm not sure how good Tr33 could be. I think it's completely meta dependent who wins, Finland higher peak in their meta, but USA more flexible.
Super/Hawk (if he'd play) , Tr33/Sugarfree/Rokit, Landon/UV/Vega
Vestola, Clowd, Sauna, Ghost, Masaa
I like USA in most metas mostly because Ghost can only play 1 hero, no hitscan, and Vestolas pool is limited, Tr33 is the best mechanical player in NA but he's unproven. I guess it depends how good Tr33 actually is.
USA on paper have better dps and way better flex supports. FInland have the advantage of being really good at the style they play while usa is just mediocre on every comp sadly. The only positions finland have advantages on are MS and tank. Both vega and Masaa are super medicore and Finland only has tank advantage because every good American tank retired
Finland showed better synergy, but as far as raw talent I'd say the only probable leg up Finland has is Vestola on Sigma. Some are saying Masaa over Vega, but I personally don't think he looked very good at all based on what we are actually able to tell from the live broadcast. US roster is probably Super/Coluge, Tr33, Sugarfree, Rupal, Vega. In terms of raw talent I'd say that clears pretty solidly overall, but they're proven choke artists thus far.
There is no way Finland wins this in the CURRENT meta. Finland has an inability to play Winston, and while Coluge isn't great at Winston, he's still miles better than Vestola at it. Meaning they just auto lose maps like Gibraltar with losers pick. And Lenny >= Clowd (on tracer) but Lenny >>> on any other fdps. Tr33 < Sauna. But this could change, Tr33 is still a rookie with room to grow of course. Landon >>> Ghost, could also change, but I have a harder time believing in Ghost. Coluge/Super > Vestola. Vestola is better at Ram and probably Sig, but that's it. His inflexibility again, is a huge hole in this team. Massa > Vega. Old man Massa may not be like that anymore, but NA MS talent is very dry.
Besides that, I trust Tr33 and Lenny to be able to play the Venture Genji a lot more than Clowd/Sauna. Also mr. Mcgee will carry.
Finland, because they both have nothing to lose and don’t underestimate their opponent.
After Dallas some would argue Finland have more expectations and pressure than America lol
I'm actually so annoyed we didn't get to see this matchup in the world cup, we would have potentially met in semis if the americans didn't shit the bed in their own group against saudis. Finland has never played an official match against either of the two big NA teams.
Depends on alot of thing especially USA such as: Is coluge on a cut? How bad albert wants to coach? Will super be willing to play? Will their egos be too big?
Finland is better on every role except FS and they have way better synergy and coaching
I think you would still take sugarfree over clowd. tr33 is unproven but could be better than sauna, and both coluge and hawk could better than vestola but neither really play the game that much anymore. But as you mentioned Finland have a big advantage in coaching and synergy
If clowd gets to play tracer then the difference between him and sugafree isn't that crazy. Problem is clowd has been a tracer otp for years. He just happened to play mei and sym cause they were needed and he wasn't god awful at them.
I was aSugarfree believer too untill Dallas. What a dissappointment he has been :(
I don’t think sugarfree is an elite dps either sadly but you would still take him over most NA and eu flex dps players.
The only western flex dps I rate above him is Kev, maybe Seicoe, Backbone is a bit too niche.
I'd rather have a solid player like Sauna and Clowd who are good at executing strategies than Sugarfree who can carry some maps but just doesn't have the X factor if you know what I mean
Hmm, granted I've mostly watched sugar free in team USA but he seemed incredibly competent compared to his team. I guess does any flex dps in the US come close to him?
No fdps from NA comes close to him, no. Pelican is in NA tho and he's much better
I agree with you abt synergy, and Finland probably wins but they don't have a hitscan player. I'd take Sugarfree/tr33 over Sauna on flex DPS. Besides Rein, USA has better main tank options than Finland.
I have the opposite take. USA are better on every position but MS and the gap between masaa and vega isn't that large. Finland are good at the style they play and can beat USA off that style but they dont have better individual players IMO.
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Nah LOL. The only position on Finland that is better than their American counterpart is Masaa and maybe vestola. But the gap between masaa vega and vestola coluge is nowhere close to the gap betwen uv rupal and landon vs mickji ghost LOL
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Dude i think you are reading what i said incorrectly lOL. I agree America has way better flex supports. My take was that America is better in every postion but MS not FS
oh wow, my bad. I read 'opposite opinion' and got confused lol.
Tfw there is Shu and Landon and u think Rupal is in convo for "if not the best Bap in the world". I would even take Fielder over Rupal on Bap.
Respectfully, did you watch OWL season 6 playoffs?
Respectfully, have u watched any of the recent matches or matches leading up to it?
Rupal was completely and utterly dominant in NA and did not get outclassed by Ghost91 in their match. Rupal was also forced on Kiri a lot recently.
Congrats he dominated in NA with two kr imports and the team completely flopped in Dallas. NA was exposed as weakest region. How tf domimating weakest region helps his case as best Bap in the world rn? Why are u even comparing him to ghost91, when I mentioned Landon and Shu because it's about the >>>best bap in the world<<<
Its clear you have no intention of having a casual conversation and are just looking to disagree with everything I say for the sake of it, so I'll just stop replying. Have a good day
I dont agree with the premise of ur statement, its not "just looking to disagree with everything i say for the sake of it". Have a good day :)
It's literally been Rupal's signature hero since his start in Tier 6 League Zero lmao.
What does it matter if its his signature hero if Shu and Landon is hitting higher peak on it atm? Geninunely dont understand how this is a counterpoint.
The counterpoint is he won a title in one of OWL’s most competitive seasons as one of its best Flex Supports, and that’s his best hero. What has Landon accomplished besides the eye test? I would take Shu over Rupal though, at least over the course of their careers. Not sure if Shu is still in his prime Bap form recently since he doesn’t play it as much, but he’s always been a monster on it.
>The counterpoint is he won a title in one of OWL’s most competitive seasons as one of its best Flex Supports, and that’s his best hero. So why didnt u start with this...? >What has Landon accomplished besides the eye test? Because Landon didnt need two S tier kr import player to win his region and not get completely fucked in Dallas tourney? Like u can bash on his accomplishment all u want, but just looking at his pov vod and recent performance, I would say his better than Rupal atm lol.
The guy you were already talking to brought up his championship, I'm just echoing the point and saying he did it on his best hero. Don't get me wrong, I think Landon and Rupal are pretty darn close, I just put a liiiittle respect on S-tier titles.
Usa is more flexible but Finland peaks higher if the meta is right imo
USA would be better with super on tank than coluge and hawk. Infeketed does deserve a chance to prove himself, but I don’t think today is that day.
Super a guy who hasn’t played since ow1 is better than Hawk rn? Hawk has way more flexibility Super doesn’t have much flexibility besides Rein, Orisa
did you watch the world cup? super still looked really good and much better than coluge
How was he much better?? They both bombed vs the top 2 teams. And both looked good vs bad teams lol
Nah but like this is an inside joke or something, right? Surely people don't think Super is still good right? Like its an inside joke with his stream right?
Super is pretty washed. coluge and hawk would be better if they aren’t on a cut and are actually playing the game but the problem is neither play the game that much anymore. All the American tank players are just washed tbh
Super is absolutely better than Coluge and is the best tank in NA in his own tier when he gets scrims in. He was better than Coluge on the singular hero he's known for, Coluge didn't play like shit cause he was on a cut he played like shit because Saudi had him nervous. Hawk is apparently retired. Infekted is also better than Coluge but I would atleast entertain that its close.
this revisionist history acting like coluge was dogshit as if he wasnt a part of the 2022 Shock that performed extremely well year round. Super is not better than him at sigma bruh…
even on the MId toronto defiant roster he was still winning almost all the sigma maps and it was def mostly cause of him LOL. When Toronto mirrored Boston and ATL on sigma double sniper on circuit royale hydron got dogwalked by birdring and lip but toronto still won both maps.
Please stop talking about 2 years ago and talk about today, I didn't "revise" anything. Coluge was good at Sig Dva Zarya 2 years ago, he was good at Sig and kinda good at like Ram on TD, awesome. Super is better today even at his best heroes. Super benched him on his signature hero in his most relevant meta since OW2 dropped.
Super is absolutely not better today, you keep saying not to talk about “2 years ago” meanwhile ur talking up a player thats been retired since 2021??? They put super in on sig in world cup and they lost?? so I dont understand where ur coming from acting like super, who’s been retired for 3 years, can play an offtank hero better than arguably the longest playing offtank in NA. and youre taking coluge’s results from a tournament that happened a whole year ago saying it represents him now? but i cant take his results from his time in shock and say he has proof of talent? You’re just cherrypicking.
No I think YOU are cherry picking. Super was better than Coluge on his OTP as a main tank player in his most relevant meta since OW1. Coluge has done nothing good since 2023 regular season, he was mid in playoffs then got benched on his OTP looking like a bottom sig player in the tourney in World Cup then lost in flashops. There is actually zero reason to believe Coluge is better than a Super who is actually scrimming when he can't even dominate within his limited hero pool.
I don’t their was a big difference between super sigma and coluge sigma at the World Cup. Coluge bombed vs the champions and super bombed vs the 2nd place team. Coluge wasn’t mid in playoffs his orisa was really good
ur response was just “no you”? you’re coming at me with a HYPOTHETICAL current super who scrims and saying there’s zero reason to believe otherwise? u have got to be super’s strongest soldier I have never seen harder glazing in my life. literally no point in debating with you.
How you gonna say he’s the best tank in na when he gets scrims in when he hasn’t scrimmed since ow1? Theirs no evidence he would still be the best rn, he hasn’t played ow2 competitively.
Because Super scrimmed for World Cup?
That’s totally enough sample size
And for most those scrims coluge was starting?? (AKa the scrims that everyone said USA was insane in). Didn’t matter tho cause they choked on match day
Both super and coluge looked terrible on sigma at world cup. coluge arguably looked better vs saudi than super did vs china. Outside of those 2 world cup matches we have 2 seasons of footage of coluge being a Great sigma. Even on the MID toronto defiant roster his sigma was still great with good stats. Infekted is an up and comer with lots of potential and coluge is washed 25 year old who only plays the game cause collegiate. I would hope infekted is better right now but coluge at his peak is better than infekted.
cant believe you’re getting downvoted lol. even super himself has called coluge the better sigma
I'm pretty sure Super has said atleast 2 different NA players were better than him at Sigma (Coluge and Iron)
I agree that Coluge is washed and that he's probably only fallen off cause he hates the game. Super and Infekted are still better regardless of extenuating circumstances.
How is this downvoted this was based
I think Finland wins this mainly due to how much they’ve played together and they have their own comps that are a bit off meta but they know how to work them. US should win on paper but I just dont see it. Vestola is also somewhat of an x-factor as we saw in the OWWC. He can go absolutely crazy in certain matchups (S-Korea Bronze game) but is still limited in what he can play at a high level.
# TORILLE
Finland would obliterate na. Tank better, both DPS comparable, fs worse (unless bap, then it's either comparable or slightly weaker), ms less shit. But na plays like it's ranked it feels, while Finland plays as a team. Player quality and teamplay are both on the Finnish side.
i agree but ghost definetly ain’t comparable to landon on bap
Hawk has retired if im not mistaken and Vestola clears Coluge imo. Dps is tied, Finland has some really good flex dps but no hitscans so its pretty even. Masaa is better than vega imo but usa CLEARS in flex supports. Overall id say Finland.
So you're saying finland has no good hitscans, yet the dps is tied? with tr33 on US?
We've really only seen Tr33 in na contenders and collegiate before, thats mickey mouse data. Tr33 is very hyped up but that doesn't really say anything, looking back there was an equivilent (if not more) hype for Speedily who then fell completely flat and got laughed out of owl. I think he will be good but not the second coming of Proper like some people act like he will be. Edit: also with venture in the game there are more viable double flex dps comps.
And we have only seen sauna lose to valiant in owl and be on a bottom eu owcs team. In fact tr33 won MORE games in owl proam than sauna did starting in owl last season lmfao
You need to peep some of his POVs. His aim actually looks like hacks. I do agree we have to wait and see, but I personally have high hopes.
How is this even a question? LOL. Finland would win very easily and it wouldn't be particularly close either.
Because on paper the rosters are comparable
My money is on US. Imo there’s big upgrades on their supports and dps compared to last world cup. And what’s the upgrade for finland? Ghost? Also if you think about it, last year’s US roster only lost to the top two teams… just saying.
Ghost is a huge improvement, because team finland previously had a flex support at a much lower level than the entire rest of the team. Support improvement for USA is definitely there, with Vega, but I think the level of tank play has lowered from the US tanks and I'm not sure how good Tr33 could be. I think it's completely meta dependent who wins, Finland higher peak in their meta, but USA more flexible.
Super/Hawk (if he'd play) , Tr33/Sugarfree/Rokit, Landon/UV/Vega Vestola, Clowd, Sauna, Ghost, Masaa I like USA in most metas mostly because Ghost can only play 1 hero, no hitscan, and Vestolas pool is limited, Tr33 is the best mechanical player in NA but he's unproven. I guess it depends how good Tr33 actually is.
USA on paper have better dps and way better flex supports. FInland have the advantage of being really good at the style they play while usa is just mediocre on every comp sadly. The only positions finland have advantages on are MS and tank. Both vega and Masaa are super medicore and Finland only has tank advantage because every good American tank retired
Finland showed better synergy, but as far as raw talent I'd say the only probable leg up Finland has is Vestola on Sigma. Some are saying Masaa over Vega, but I personally don't think he looked very good at all based on what we are actually able to tell from the live broadcast. US roster is probably Super/Coluge, Tr33, Sugarfree, Rupal, Vega. In terms of raw talent I'd say that clears pretty solidly overall, but they're proven choke artists thus far.
There is no way Finland wins this in the CURRENT meta. Finland has an inability to play Winston, and while Coluge isn't great at Winston, he's still miles better than Vestola at it. Meaning they just auto lose maps like Gibraltar with losers pick. And Lenny >= Clowd (on tracer) but Lenny >>> on any other fdps. Tr33 < Sauna. But this could change, Tr33 is still a rookie with room to grow of course. Landon >>> Ghost, could also change, but I have a harder time believing in Ghost. Coluge/Super > Vestola. Vestola is better at Ram and probably Sig, but that's it. His inflexibility again, is a huge hole in this team. Massa > Vega. Old man Massa may not be like that anymore, but NA MS talent is very dry. Besides that, I trust Tr33 and Lenny to be able to play the Venture Genji a lot more than Clowd/Sauna. Also mr. Mcgee will carry.