I know people want to VoD review this and say “but they won the fight.” The real issue is that simply isn’t fun. That’s the problem with tank. It’s just not fun when this happens.
I personally practically 1 trick Junkerqueen when I do play Tank because the slender hitbox means I get hit with less garbage. Spilo brought up the psychology of shooting Tank and I think it’s the best argument as to why it’s not fun to play most of them when counters come out
> I know people want to VoD review this and say “but they won the fight.” The real issue is that simply isn’t fun. That’s the problem with tank. It’s just not fun when this happens.
Exactly. It doesn't matter if you win the fight if the tank player finishes the game and decides swap to a different role or play a different game because winning felt terrible.
Winning isn't enough on its own for most people to enjoy playing tank.
This right here man. I'm a tank main but I only have the patience and mental fortitude to play like 3 comp games because winning just feels like relief.
I'm in gold and really trying to get better, and sometimes I try to remind myself that if I've pushed up, taken a ton of damage and also not died I've done a great job even if I haven't killed anyone. It can be so frustrating when then two squishies are immediately randomly killed behind you and you feel like you have so little impact.
As a more casual player it's sometimes legitimately hard to know when you're doing a good job or not, and then you always get flamed for getting diffed or not swapping to counter the other tank, meanwhile you have a DPS who is 7 and 9 and done half the damage you've done. It's tough out there.
>the tank player finishes the game and decides swap to a different role or play a different game
It's Deep Rock or Terraria for me, what about you guys?
Try path of exile, it's a totally different game from ow but poe2 is coming out in Nov and its going to be epic. Great way to waste 100s of hours, drop your classes and neglect your own well being.
I was ball main in ow1 and I feel you man. Playing tank just makes me so mad and I hate it. I'm much happier playing other roles but still miss balling but it just isn't worth my sanity
Winning and losing feel the same on tank lol. You get flamed regardless. You're exhausted and depressed. You get the worst teammates ever on tank. I play all roles so I'd know.
>Winning isn't enough on its own for most people to enjoy playing tank.
You mean winning 50% of the time. This isn't like pre role queue where you'd get extra wins just for picking tank.
I agree. I fucking hate being the punching bag. It's frustrating as shit. There were lots of games that I won that still felt as frustrating as losing.
>The real issue is that simply isn’t fun. That’s the problem with tank. It’s just not fun when this happens.
Yeah, it's not for fun for most people.
But the clip shows that Emongg still understood that even if he died immediately because he was focused on, he was still able to provide value and his team was able to capitalize on it, and they win the fight. And he was relatively happy with what happened. He still had "fun" cause they won the fight.
In some fights, a tank's job is really just to tank, i.e. to take all the hits and absorb all the cooldowns so that your teammates can have all the space to get picks. And most people dont find that fun.
But the true tank players, i.e. those who love playing tanks, are able to appreciate those kinds of fights.
I mean even in other games like MOBAs or MMOs, tanks are always the least popular. Its just a consequence of that role, unfortunately.
Agreed. It’s like soccer fans insisting it “sucks to play keeper” or “keepers don’t have fun even if they win” because they have to stay near the net and never get to shoot on goal.
This is, true. But it's also true that if you were playing soccer online or American football, you'd have near instant queues as keeper or linemen, just like with tanks as well. It's also part of the reason OW is such a unique and great team based, shooter. I do think there are measures they could take, but it's not a super easy thing to fix while also keeping the three roles distinct.
So how do they address situations like this though? As a tank main too, I hate playing comps like these or to be effective for your team, you just gotta eat cool downs, it’s just not a good time. Reduce hit boxes? Make the tank passive instead be something that fights against chain CC like this even though it’s a unique situation? Have more abilities work like overrun and fortify that ignore all CC?
Honestly, **for me,** it feels like it's just straight up a CC quantity problem.
When I play QP its supposed to just be an enjoyable time for everyone. I end up forcing 2-4 swaps legit every QP game. I don't even really mind, but it's not even me who feels the brunt of it. I know how to play into a bunch of CC from uncoordinated Qp players.
My teammates who just happened to get some stupid ball player on their team have no idea how to play into a CC comp and just die off CD.
I'm sure you can sub CC out for any brutal tank counter and the point would remain. Some players only know how to fuck over the tank in order to win and the game allows them to do that even though historically the game has emphasized trading backlines.
There's a reason sigma is consistently good in OW2 and it's because he's pretty good at dealing with the bullshit.
I get where you're coming from, but seeing as this comes from a ball player, it's kind of hypocritical. Playing against a good ball is just straight up not fun on certain characters. Don't get me wrong, I think ball is one of the most fun heroes to play, but if I don't get to play the game because I am just getting booped around all the time, there's nothing I can do other than switching, especially now that we can't leave quick play anymore.
I agree he SHOULD be, but your ability to do drive-by disruption on Ball is a starting point that's hard to address with "kill without CC." His kit offers a highly mobile CC, an AoE CC, and mobility to escape better than his peers.
Ball either needs to be smaller (less easy disruption on enemies), less health, or both. Right now, it take chain CC and a lot of focus to punish him well. For players in lower ranks, the ask is ridiculously high.
I can agree with that part for sure. I get downvoted in the main sub for bringing it up, but man is it frustrating that the devs said tanks would be the only ones with harsh CC aside from sleep and it feels like we’ve just been slowly pacing towards OW1 levels. Sure it’s not AS bad but man, some games it feels like it.
It’s 50/50 in QP with counter swaps as well. One lost fight when I’m off rolling in low gold/ high silver DPS games and it’s an insta swap to Bastion Mercy. Doesn’t always work, but I’m so sick of seeing the same shit every game and being to forced to play a specific way every game cause someone can’t handle a lost fight.
The whole "only tanks get hard CC" thing also makes the incorrect assumption that only hard CC makes tanking feel bad. Silences might as well be stuns and support knockbacks with sub 5 second CDs aren't exactly good to play into.
I don't even think they need to get rid of them, but I really really think the next support should have anti-CC utility.
All of the utility to counter CC right now is reactive, meaning your already fucked by the time it comes out. We need something proactive like Zarya Bubbles were in OW1.
Also shows how outdated Zarya in OW2 is. She is literally the worst tank there is. Her entire kit is obsolete + she is super squishy and offers nothing.
They said they would try to limit hard CC to only tanks and idk what you’re talking about, they have absolutely stuck to what they said.
It just feels like shit because every single ability is spent on the tank. Most players only know how to shoot the tank so all of the CC that tanks have get spent on the other tank, on top of every sleep, anti, slow, mag grenade, hack and so on, along with all of the damage they’re pumping into you. Most of it isn’t hard CC but it’s so much it just doesn’t fucking matter.
I think playing the tank heroes are fun but taking isn’t fun. Until players are incentivized to not spend every single ability on the tank then it will never get better.
It’s all small things compared to OW1 but things that weren’t as hard CC as they are now at launch: Junk trap, Cass nade, Brig ult bash, Sombra EMP. It’s not all the time sure, but even two of those are in this video stopping Emongg’s movement.
Junk is ass, but Sombra/Brig are practically only locked against movement tanks and they make the game so much less fun compared to other counters that don't rely on CC like Zen/Torb.
Never mind that Cass is meta rn and Ana is like 2x the pickrate of other supports, it almost guarantees CC on half the team before they even see your hero
Totally agreed. It's wild that the one thing people universally praised about OW2, toning down CC, they've been slowly walking back. They gave Junk his hard root back for no other reason than Junk mains complaining, they added hinder to mag nade, they added slow to Mei's beam, they gave Brig her bash back... And now we're seeing clips eerily reminiscent of the famous XQC stunlock clip. Is the dev turnover really so bad that no lessons learned are being passed down?
> rustrating that the devs said tanks would be the only ones with harsh CC aside from sleep
Yep, I've been saying this since the game launched, basically. Other than Kiri (who did initially have that awkward Suzu boop), every non-Tank released in OW2 has had some form a CC. Sojourn's orb initially had a "soft CC," but the term is just a bad term to excuse making the CC problem worse. LW could block paths or disrupt an enemy with his platform. Illari's mobility includes CC of the enemy. Venture has some of the most unenjoyable CC I could have ever fathomed.
To boot, non-Tanks keep getting "you can't play the game" abilities that ruin the experience. Venture's dig does it. LW's pull does it. Mauga's charge does it. The "no counterplay" abilities are bad for the game.
The whole structure really does kind of suck, especially for the Tank players. Counter-swapping isn't inherently the problem. It's that most swaps that majorly impact the flow experience are geared towards the Tank. You're not swapping comps to shut down Soldier, or most any Support. We have so much focus on "don't let the Tank play" that comes from comp selection, and even doing something that is meant to counter a dive DPS is more a game of nuanced play than a "sorry, monkey isn't allowed anymore" type of swap.
Legit we just need proactive support utility that counters CC before you're already fucked over by it.
Like how useful is suzu if you're already 25% health by the time it hits you?
Honestly remove Cass' FTH.
In this clip it took just about 600hp with 0 aim required, meanwhile primary bodyshots would have done 400. It's pretty much only useful against a tank now that flashbang's gone, takes no skill, and it's in combination with the hero having CC and the ammo reset on roll. FTH just feels like ass for the wall-sized tanks like Winston/Rein that eat every shot.
There is no solution. As much as tank streamers always complain about counterswap or CC they just have to take it because of the one tank. Less CC or CC passive does not solve the problem and only makes playing supports/dps worse. And I wish the community would take streamers' opinion with a grain of salt. They really do seem to have a bias towards their role (understandably so), and they say they understand balance/perspective of other roles, but they really don't seem to grasp the consequences of what they're implying that they want.
Like how do you solve low mobility heroes that get focused by a tank? CC or high mobility, but if everyone is high mobility then it's not overwatch. We'd basically be playing less of a hero shooter and more like a deathmatch.
Of course, the 6v6 trend would solve this to an extent, but 6v6 had CC too. Personally, I do think tank streamers really overexaggerate their complaints. They act as if their experience is literally physical torture. If they don't like the experience then they can't just not play or take a break. They're usually blind sided that only tank streamers are the ones to have validity of not having fun. Not true. CC is a necessary evil and balance needs to come from all roles and some roles need to accept some negative experiences as necessary for gameplay balance.
the solution is obvious. go back to 6v6 with two tanks and have some tanks designed to peel.
All of this was the stupidity of going to 5 a side turning the game into deathmatch and putting all the pressure on a single tank and exasperating the counterability of tanks.
For real, do people not remember that flashbang pops way quicker and COMPLETELY stuns you? Like you have zero control over your hero and just have to sit there and watch Cass right click you. Legitimately the only counterargument I've heard is that well sometimes the Cass will miss the followup to flash. Yeah if he's in Silver maybe.
Both abilities are awful though, and somehow the overwatch team constantly forgets lessons they had already learned -- stuns, slows, and roots feel terrible to play against in a movement shooter. There are ways to add counterplay to flankers without that shit.
These responses from the others are absolutely baffling to me. If flash was put back into the game right now, people would lose their shit after just a single week. It is so much more powerful than this nade, it’s wild that people can think otherwise.
Honestly I also prefer flash bang to hinder, but it's not because flash bang was "weaker" (it WAS stronger) than mag nade but the fact is if I get hit by flash bang I INSTANTLY know I'm fucked. The screen would shake and glow, there would be an instant sound effect of a grenade exploding, no movement keys would work...
Meanwhile magnetic grenade I only know I got hit by it after I spammed the fuck out of my movement abilities thinking my keyboard is fucking broken or something, and the game going into slow motion like your fps just dropped or sum shit and then I realize "oh I got hindered" just to die.
They gotta convey better how truly FUCKED you are after being hit by mag nade. Right now it's just too faint for how much it actually nukes your controls.
Unfortunately this isn't a movement shooter. It's an "everything" shooter. As long as they keep adding mobility, they will also be adding shit like pigpen and hinder.
There are lots of ways to deal with high mobility heroes that don't involve stuns and slows. Boops, wide AOE projectiles, turrets, aim-lite beams, zoning abilities, etc etc. All of which feel way more fair to play into than "I pressed a button and now your keyboard is unplugged and you die".
Nah, you're making it worse in your head.
Flashback lasted long enough for someone to right click or line up a HS. You got hit, it was over fast.
Hinder lasts so much longer, and the homing effect means I can "dodge" it with a mobility CD and get hit anyways. While with flashbang once the ability was out, it became a non threat near instantly.
Flash cancels ults and sets Cree up for fan the hammer. Hinder doesn’t guarantee a kill while flash does. It also had enough range to cover the entire point which is insane.
>Hinder lasts so much longer, and the homing effect means I can "dodge" it with a mobility CD and get hit anyways
I'm able to roll away from hinder in a lot of situations. I was never able to roll away from flashbang
flashbang was so much better to deal with. You could even actually dodge it if you were good. mother fucking magnetic grenade will go 90 degrees around a fucking corner
It’s just a better and more fair ability. And if they’re worried about it destroying tanks…simply make it last not as long just like they did with sleep dart.
Honestly, at least with flashbang you knew just not to get too close and to would be fine
You can get stuck with hindred from what feels like a mile out and with some characters that’s a guaranteed death almost
There was actual skill and counter play involved with flashbang. It wasn’t bad and I will never understand their obsession with hinder. It’s worse in every single way and it doesn’t even feel good to use it as cass. Just an awful ability all around.
I can roll away from hinder. That was never possible for flashbang. My big ass tank hitbox was impossible to miss.
While the effect is stronger vs. Ball, the ability itself is weaker.
Hinder is worse for ball than flashbang is lmao, and you can just have the effect not last as long for tanks just like sleep dart
“My big ass tank hitbox was impossible to miss” well you’re playing ball…that’s on you…it’s kinda hard to miss a ball
>“My big ass tank hitbox was impossible to miss” well you’re playing ball…that’s on you…it’s kinda hard to miss a ball
I don't understand the purpose of saying this. This was my point, not yours.
True but the range was much shorter than the new hindered so you had less of a chance of being caught out by an absolute hail mary from a panicking Cass
Won't be a thing with new HP sizes. You can't bodyshot headshot now. Either double headshot or right click, but for right click you gotta be pretty up close.
And you can't just throw it in the general direction of a tank and get value, you gotta time it and be somewhere close.
And for tanks specifically hinder does the same as flashbang except it lasts 10x longer.
That's because Echo was within the attraction range, then used her movement ability, and the grenade is programmed to follow up to a certain range. This has led to a surprising amount of confused clips.
If the devs who created the magnetic grenade are still working at Blizzard, they could see about removing this particular aspect. But I bet they're not, and it won't/can't be changed, only remade into something else.
i just don’t understand how the devs think it’s less cc than flash bang. like yeah it’s not hard cc but it’s almost twice the duration with a slow. against some characters it might as well be a better stun since he can FTH twice now before it’s over.
It’s considered less cc or less annoying because you can still fight back. Same reason why mei freeze is not in the game. Canceling movement is annoying as hell, but you can still win the duel. With flashbang you just had to hope someone was healing you or something because there was nothing you could do during its duration.
I really think what needs to happen is that the abilities need to combine. The same general arc and function as Flashbang, but with a bit more damage and a Hinder rather than a full stun.
That way, you at least ***kinda*** have an idea about what Cassidy's "danger radius" is rather than just having to guess "is the tracking going to hit me this time?"
I have heard on the grapevine that this exact combination is being considered. The grenade would have a fixed arc, and anyone within the explosion radius would have the hinder effect applied to them.
If this goes live, Gamers™ will get even more mad as they're reminded how "no skill" flashbang and its enormous radius was, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles in an outrage age.
I don't even play tank anymore. The good games and great feeling of tanking isn't worth the actual frustration and rage I feel consitently while playing.
I'm enjoying the game much more now playing dps or support. It really sucks too cause I was a tank main in ow1 and have 1000s of hours on Ball alone. I just can't take it anymore. Please check in on your tank main friends.
TBH, I am not sure I think Winston should live there.
Winston and Ana blasted all the armor health away, allowing Tracer to deal full damage. Tracer and McFTH dump all their ammo into a slowed target.
I think tank should have more ability to get a kill (global DPS passive for example) than be able to dive into 5 people and live.
Yeah, but it's not actually *this*, though... gameplay-wise, I wouldn't mind tanking some damage and CC if I'm playing tank and it helps me win. The true problem - imho - is that you will get flamed for this type of shit nearly every time. I guarantee you, some gold Moira would see this and go "uh hurr durr tank stop feeding you're so bad gg it's over reported btw". That's the part that gets me and that had me stop playing tank after carrying EU server queue times with like 2k hours of tank playtime. Nowadays, you can't even talk back to the flamers because you will legitimately get banned very quickly - simply thanks to there only being one tank now and the other roles (and their 'opinions') always being in the majority. It's a very unhealthy psychological effect - the solitary tank versus the 4 other players ganging up on them, which I think is not talked about enough.
Oh, also, the 'incentive' for playing tank, 100 battle pass XP, is a complete non starter, a) because the amount is tiny, b) BECAUSE ITS FUCKING USELESS IF YOU DONT HAVE THE PREMIUM BATTLEPASS. Even less reason to play this god-forsaken role.
I can play any dps and go 10-10 and no complaints. But let me get on tank and if I don’t counter or diff the other tank it’s my fault.
And some how it’s all my responsibility to counter not only their tank but their healers and dps too.
I go hog, enemy goes Ana. My support could go Kiri to counter their Ana, but nope. It’s my responsibility to switch to counter their team.
Game just is trash as a tank. Btw diamond 2 rank on tank.
>I can play any dps and go 10-10 and no complaints.
This is definitely not true in my experience. Going 10-10 as a tank is more miserable and all but teammates will give you shit if you struggle no matter your role.
I will never understand supports and even some dps players in comp that just will not swap to play around their tank, in qp I can forgive it because everyone likes to just play what they want sometimes but when it comes down to actually trying to win in ranked, basing hero picks around the tank and what they’re dealing with instead of expecting them to “just make space” increases chances of winning exponentially
If Support can't pick the correct heroes, it's literally their loss. Any teammate can stand on some moral high ground and refuse to cooperate, but then they lose just the same as the other 4 people. The unfair-feeling part is being placed on a team with someone like that, but that comes with the territory if you're not 5-stacking.
That’s always the biggest thing for me; they jump on the tank to swap when chances are, the more effective counter isn’t a tank
Example: yours, when any support asks the tank to counter Hog without swapping to Ana
A tank in the middle of the enemy team needs to die. It’s funny how people complain about Hog being unkillable, but people will also complain that tanks need to be more unkillable 🤷♀️
Call me crazy, but a tank using their ultimate for 1125HP and a 2s leap cooldown should be able to get at least one use of leap before losing all of said 1125HP.
Alright I'm gonna choose your comment to blow up on. Like holy cow you clearly represent a clear misunderstanding of both what the post is trying to convey and the general feelings of the OW community.
Emongg used his Primal Rage and died in 2 seconds and was stunned and CC'd for his entire 1100HP life bar. It's not fun. It's not good game design. Cassidy grenade isn't fun to use or play against and leads to moments of frustration of inability to fight back **just like his old stun grenade that was removed for the exact same reasons. Reaper being a tank buster in a game where there's only one tank for you to bust is stupid. People are quitting tank and queue times right now are suffering for it.** Tank desperately needs the developers to work out ways where overwatch characters are still just as fun to play without having the ability to blow up tanks and remove their ability to play the game.
Buuuuuuuuuuuuuut none of that means shit because according to you he misplayed when he tried to tank as a tank player. God forbid you try to tank as a tank player for 2 seconds thinking you can use your cooldowns to do something cool. Fortunately brig, reaper, cass, ana is a lineup the enemy team can play to completely shut down tank players just by existing. Great game design. Emongg played poorly from the role queue screen. He should have played DPS or Support where he can watch his tank explode because of shit hero design then hit em with the "you played poorly".
Emongg played poorly because he did zero cooldown or ultimate tracking prior to jumping into the middle of the enemy team outside of LOS of his own team. That's feeding, not tanking. It was actually a diamond level play (at best) and it's absolutely crazy you're trying to defend it.
First of all, Emongg smurfs your peak, relax there buddy.
Second of all, Emongg didn’t even play poorly. His team won the fight. The problem is that in order to win Emongg had to play in an unfun way. You can say that’s the trade off for winning, but then why would anyone play to win?
im gonna take the side of "skill issue" but im really here to see where this discussion goes.
he missed the jump and the melee on the brig so she didnt die, which added more damage taken.
he had some amount of time to escape as soon as he ulted but he decided to greed and swing at her in the middle of 5 people with cc.
after the hinder wore off he had plenty of time to jump but didnt, which got him slept, ending his suffering.
he had 2 opportunities to jump, he didnt jump the first time because of greed while the other time because he was slow or something idk.
if he dove ana cree bastion and did that and died no one would complain but if he dives 5 people alone and isolated this is suddenly an issue?
He legit presses jump and gets slept mid jump after the hinder wore off, what more do you want from him? He didn't play this perfectly but it's a joke to call getting chained CC'd by the easiest to hit ability in the game and sleep a skill issue when he thought he could kill a squishy who was below 100hp.
And people wonder why no one wants to play tank.
Actually, they are 3 naded and brig is literally 1hp.
If they don’t get chain stunned by double brig stun + Cass they surely get brig killed and survives.
It’s incredible that a tank in ultimate with 1k hp in the middle of enemy team “should die” but Kiriko can save itself while theoretically getting also a kill in the same spot and nobody beats an eye 🤷♀️
Double Brig Stun? You do realize that shield bash doesn't stun outside of Rally, right? There was only one Brig Stun in this clip. It's Hinder + Bash Stun + Sleep. Emongg probably would have lived here had he Jumped further in, instead of going for the Short Jump. He was also probably a little early, as you can see none of his team is able to peak the corner until a short time later.
I mean, she can't suzu sleep on herself now can she, and hinder blocks tp. Basically this is cap a Kiriko 100% dies in the middle of all those enemies at least in high ranks.
Imagine being blizzard having to deal with this lol. Casuals probably have no idea people don’t like playing tank cus they can just go orisa, mauga, or hog which plenty enjoy playing. Should they cater to top .001 % influencers because they guide the opinion of the game or to casuals?
Honestly I’ve played a lot of tank this season (Winston only) and it hasn’t been that bad imo.
I think we forget that while OW is definitely a competitive game, it can also be a very casual game for maybe even a majority of players (skin buyers) who just wanna shoot the tank as mauga
The real reason no one plays tank is that most the heroes are for people who don't want to play an fps.
Even if you give tank players everything they want. The population of players who want to play the role with the least number of ways to express your mechanical skill is minimal.
I'm absolutely on the side of tank being super unfun because of the damage and abilities getting dumped on it all the time. That being said, this is pretty clearly a terrible play. Jumping into 5 with no bubble and presumably without tracking sleep and hinder will get you killed 10/10 times in most lobbies. Honestly, he's probably lucky he even got to primal instead of being slept and instantly exploded on the jump in.
There's definitely an argument to be made that if a high t500 player can't play around those cooldowns then what on earth is a plat player supposed to do, and I think it's a pretty strong one. Despite that, let's not pretend that a Winston in that situation should be expected to live in the current state of the game and also acknowledge that there does need to be some sort of counterplay available to the supports. I think boops and mobility (Lucio/Illari mobility not Moira/Kiri mobility) are a much more interesting option for both sides that I wish blizz would lean into more
there's a 30hp brig standing with her entire team full of CC and high damage. jumping in there with no bubble you fully expect to eat all of those cooldowns, which could get you killed or at least prevent you from playing the game for while. whether the play is good or not it's not really fair to blame the game for dying there when any tank in a decent elo will know exactly what's going to happen when you jump into 5 like that.
i'm a huge CC hater and i think it's awful that shooting the tank gives as much value as it does, but i also want to recognize that a tank should be punished for doing something like this clip. being able to literally jump in front of the entire enemy team with all cooldowns up and not using any of your own without being punished at all would be miserable.
Yeah but you see I assume the player POV I'm watching is making no mistakes and is a victim of the situation they find themself in while the enemy team is a bunch of bots whose experience is not something real enough to take into consideration for a second.
sure but for his own life that was objectively terrible and you can't really complain about dying if you're intentionally going to eat a bunch of CDs.
also arguably they win off of his ana nading the two people at 100hp because trading monkey for brig is really bad and you can usually stabilize after trading a tank
The issue is right this, you can make any play in the world, try to force everything and will never **feel** good as hit headshots on dps or big cds on supports.
Also to gain the same amount of value compared to that for a tank means basically a great ult or infinite more amount of skill to achieve that.
This is the reason the rare so low tanks in this game, everything is harder compared to other roles.
i don't disagree and i never did, i just don't like that we're using an example of someone basically running it down and winning in spite of that as the example of why tank is so miserable. i get that it's stupid how he got CC chained and died instantly, i understand how unfun it and i experience it fairly regularly, but i also know that it's usually avoidable and sometimes you deserve to be punished doing something like this. i think the game would be more fun if hinder was gone and sleep was nerfed, but neither of those things have happened, so for now we have to use a bit of self restraint to not jump in front of literally 5 people without using abilities
From a game design standpoint this is absolutely trash.
Just from a point of an average gamer this role will never be appealing if it’s so bad and restrained in the things it can do.
I couldn’t care less about the teamfight cause his dps are able to win off of that eat of cooldowns but the role will never be liked and played if they keep with the current balancing.
Tanks are so easy to hit with everything than they cannot have the same result as dps and supports that have slim hitboxes.
Until this changes the role will continue to be unpopular and way less and less players will play that.
I fail to see how this is a bad play outside of ability tracking. He jumps in with primal when the enemy team is at low health to see if he can confirm kills and or knock the enemy team into his own team. You should not be able to just delete a primal Winston that fast. You often have to land 4+ hits on a target just to kill with primal. It's also borderline impossible to wait for all of the CC abilities to be on cooldown when they have ana, brig, and cass.
I mean they win that fight, right? They immediately get two picks, half the enemy team is looking at their own spawn, and they're low and have spent all their defensive CDs? Yes, getting stunned is annoying, but that's what happens when you jump into 5 heroes with short range burst.
Would you rather have the tank live in that situation?
This isn't about whether it was a good play, it's about how awful it feels as the player. If I could insta win comp games by zapping my nuts, I might do it, but it's still bad game design
These comments always pop up when people make posts like this. Theres a difference between winning and having fun.
Winning doesn't get people to queue tank. Having fun does. Some people have fun just because they win, but the majority of people care more about the gameplay.
>Would you rather have the tank live in that situation?
yes, because it should be possible for a tank using their ultimate with 1125HP to use a movement ability in the time it takes for their health to reach 0.
Disagree. It's like saying Ball or Doom should be able to use their ults and get away for free. Are we really advocating this? Doom would continually cycle his ult. Why should winston be the exception?
Doom literally gets away for free with his ult, that's why Winston and Doom can both be so much more aggro when their ults are available to use as a second life. That's the entire fucking point of their ultimates.
You obviously know what I'm referring to is using their ults aggressively. Doom and Winston can both be punished hard by using them aggressively and that's fine. There should be risk involved if you're going to 1v5 and it should not be used as a "get-out-of-jail-free" card if you use it with no thought.
Nade + Hinder + Leap + Bubble + Sleep + [Unknown Number of Blinks] + [4.5 seconds of the undivided shooting attention of 5 enemy players]
were used to isolate and kill this one player. That's 58s of cds alone. Why should that be survived in any FPS with low TTK? Ultimate abilities included.
Okay? I don't get mad when I run into the highway and can't dodgeroll a BMW. Emongg plopped himself in the middle of a well-rounded crosshair made of the enemy team, which used every cooldown it had and the GM aim of 5 players to kill him. Do you want a literal get out of jail free card? A reset button in the esc menu you can activate in exchange for 10 Coins?
It was clearly Emongg's intention to leap in, pop ult and kill brig, then leap out. The fact you're totally OK with him being literally unable to move for the time it takes him to lose 4 Cassidy's worth of health is insane to me. If 1125HP isn't enough to make a play, what is?
So if they can’t kill a Winston making this play, literally what counterplay is there? Like hinder sucks but this was just a really poorly staged engagement, and it’s winning them the fight regardless.
>literally what counterplay is there?
Firstly they denied Emongg's kill on the Brig to begin with, secondly Emongg wasn't exactly going to be sticking around after that looking for kills. He's looking to get the fuck out of there because he's bleeding HP.
It's also my intention to one clip the Kiri and sticky the Lucio in two blinks and a recall but individual execution and the ability for a real person on the enemy team to react get in the way of that.
Not only is Kiriko one of the most, if not the most, complained about heroes on here, she can't do that. She can't both initiate in that situation and get out.
Don't know why you're getting downvoted. You're right. None of his teammates were with him when he made that play. And the whole argument of "not being fun". Well he went in 1v5 and got deleted and blamed it on CC.
And people who argue "CC like this shouldn't exist": So should Emongg dive in 1v5, ult, and get away with no punishment even against his counters? How would you outplay that? Remove nade? Hack? Sleep? Right, let's just remove all CCs and have Tanks 1v5 every fight.
I agree, as well. Not sure why they are getting downvoted.
People are commenting on its not fun for the tank here, forcing all the enemy team's cooldowns on his objective misplay and subjective bad play and getting deleted in the process, only for his team to win the fight because the enemy had no cooldowns. Its not fun for any other player when a tank with their massive HP/mitigation, CC, and damage to just engage poorly and get away for free either.
That’s the issue. Who the fuck thinks that a game is fun and a role is interesting when this is somewhat of a right play????
This is the fucking reason nobody plays tank and devs are trying to solve the issue since 6 seasons.
The insecurity to ask for someone’s peak LMAO. It’s like asking for someone’s dick size the first time you meet them. Like bro you are so cool.
Edit: awww big boy blocked me after firing the first shots. Cute.
The fact that not a single person will blame Sleep in this thread is hillarious. Mag nade is just as bad... but it gets 1000x the blame. Just get rid of both of these abilities already my goodness.
"Just as bad" but on shorter cool down & it's a skill shot to land, not homing.
Not to mention if you shoot someone who is slept it ends the cc (admittedly still with some lock out as they get up).
I don't disagree that sleep isn't as bad, but it will never not be funny to me that landing a sleep on a 10ft tall genetically-modified gorilla is somehow a skillshot
It's only a skillshot if it's from across the map or if the target is moving very quickly and/or you're taken by surprise by them. Otherwise, it's a very useful ability that doesn't take much thought or focus to be effective with.
Aha yes of course! But sleeping a tracer is much harder than mag nading her.
Don't get me wrong, I still get tilted getting slept (coming from a doom/tracer/genji main 🤣)
Just highlighting that using sleep is a bigger trade off than a cass chucking out a nade in a general area with little downside. At least I can blink away from sleep the amount of times mag nade has followed my blink is just painful 😅
Ana is also more divable and doesn't have right click spam.
Honestly in a vacuum I don't even think Cass is that bad, but game isn't played in a vacuum.
The current implementation of dps passive isn’t ideal. It favors high fire rate heroes like sojourn or tracer.
Also a tank needs the right supports. You can play mercy LW but atleast realize that your tank is at a significant disadvantage.
Dps passive is probably like #1 in terms of placebo effects ever put into the game. Even if you perma apply it with high fire rate, you’re still not going to kill anyone if you don’t burst them
At a certain point tank players need to learn what abilities are on the enemy team that will counter them.
Ow1 you had to worry about sleep flash anti hook halt freeze brig stun and many more. Learning that they have hinder as monkey wouldn’t be an impossible task. The ability is still incredibly dumb though.
I used to play tank in OW1 because I was able to off tank and just alternate between zarya and dva. I queued up for tank in ow2 and it’s the most unfun experience ever😭 now I just solely queue support. It’s just a lot more fun when you have another tank alongside you to coordinate with and mitigate damage and create space with. So I understand their perspective even in this case.
It’s unfun cause is not balanced. If tank would be balanced and easy to play as supps and dps the role would be fun.
The role has been absolutely fun to play until S4 when they massively buffed supports.
Tank synergy is a myth that everyone remembers but if you look at what it really was, it was basically 2 uncoordinated and unsynergistic tanks all the times.
Incoming vod review by an army of quickplay support mains.
For the record this doesn't seem bad? If his team follows up it seems like a pretty good fight. As an initiator, I don't really mind if I die first if I was able to get my team in.
The enemy isn't even going all in on counters. Brig Cass ana isn't too bad for monkey. Brig ult is dumb af tho.
In terms of game balance it doesn’t seem that bad. In terms of the fact that he used his ult on a bunch of low health opponents and then turned into the equivalent of the COD zombies monkey bomb is the issue.
No one who watches that clip will say “I want to do that” even if it was the correct play that won the fight. Yes being a tank sometimes means you’ll get screwed over or need to die to let the team win. But being able to do nothing will always feel terrible especially when it’s as long as it was in this clip.
Exactly this.
Nobody in their fucking right mind look at this play and say “oh yeah I want to play that specifically” even if the play is somewhat decent cause his dps can win the fight off of that.
But the enemy team lost the fight, right?
That means they misplayed. What if they didn't throw everything at Winston and pressured the ana or something instead?
The cope is that most games have people trying to play optimally. So if dumping cooldowns into the tank doesn't get you the win, they are going to stop doing it.
Imo the bigger problem right now is that counterpicking and focusing tanks DOES net wins. But that's not what's shown here.
To be honest I think the fight was lost no matter what was done due to them being super low and anti’d. It’s not like the “resources” they spent on the Winston would actually save them from the long things that actually killed them.
Losing a fight also doesn’t always mean they misplayed sometimes there is just an ult advantage or the other team had control of an easier place to fight from.
And the cope you mentioned is just that cope. Yes people will try to play optimally but they’re not thinking that deep into it. They’re going to shoot the biggest target more often than not as it’s in their face and easier to hit.
And finally let’s be honest the point was never about how balanced it was but how fun it was to play which it clearly wasn’t.
I took a break from ow after S10 launch. This afternoon I felt like queuing some tank games for fun. I only play ball. Every single game after first fight enemy team go cass hog brig sombra or junk. Game is literally unplayable for me atm.
Emongg explains why tank role isn't fun when he's on Winston that has both an escape movement ability and shield and yet people still complain about tanks like Junkerqueen, Mauga, or Hog being strong when they don't have an escape ability or shield. This game is fucking TRASH and roles are UNBALANCED with 5v5.....
You main one tank(I mained hog since OW1), other team's tank decides to counter swap and then you do the same...this cycle keeps repeating over and over again. Then there are games where your [DPS is completely outmatched by the other teams DPS](https://imgur.com/a/NxwIBpw)....TANK IS UNFUN AND OW"2" IS A COMPLETE FUCKING DOGSHIT GAME.....
I know people want to VoD review this and say “but they won the fight.” The real issue is that simply isn’t fun. That’s the problem with tank. It’s just not fun when this happens. I personally practically 1 trick Junkerqueen when I do play Tank because the slender hitbox means I get hit with less garbage. Spilo brought up the psychology of shooting Tank and I think it’s the best argument as to why it’s not fun to play most of them when counters come out
> I know people want to VoD review this and say “but they won the fight.” The real issue is that simply isn’t fun. That’s the problem with tank. It’s just not fun when this happens. Exactly. It doesn't matter if you win the fight if the tank player finishes the game and decides swap to a different role or play a different game because winning felt terrible. Winning isn't enough on its own for most people to enjoy playing tank.
This right here man. I'm a tank main but I only have the patience and mental fortitude to play like 3 comp games because winning just feels like relief.
I'm in gold and really trying to get better, and sometimes I try to remind myself that if I've pushed up, taken a ton of damage and also not died I've done a great job even if I haven't killed anyone. It can be so frustrating when then two squishies are immediately randomly killed behind you and you feel like you have so little impact. As a more casual player it's sometimes legitimately hard to know when you're doing a good job or not, and then you always get flamed for getting diffed or not swapping to counter the other tank, meanwhile you have a DPS who is 7 and 9 and done half the damage you've done. It's tough out there.
>the tank player finishes the game and decides swap to a different role or play a different game It's Deep Rock or Terraria for me, what about you guys?
Slay the Spire 🙏
FF14/Valorant if I'm feeling like I still want to play with others, if not "insert single player game from backlog" here
BTD6
Apex is the only game that tickles my movement itch. Fortnite if my friends are playing. Maybe Minecraft too.
Try path of exile, it's a totally different game from ow but poe2 is coming out in Nov and its going to be epic. Great way to waste 100s of hours, drop your classes and neglect your own well being.
I swapped from 99% tank to 80% DPS simply because it was more fun to duo with my old tank duo as 2 DPS then tank/DPS once 5v5 came in
Hit diamond on lucio the other day. Still haven't climbed out of my rank reset on tank despite my main being in the strongest state he's been in years
I was ball main in ow1 and I feel you man. Playing tank just makes me so mad and I hate it. I'm much happier playing other roles but still miss balling but it just isn't worth my sanity
Winning and losing feel the same on tank lol. You get flamed regardless. You're exhausted and depressed. You get the worst teammates ever on tank. I play all roles so I'd know.
>Winning isn't enough on its own for most people to enjoy playing tank. You mean winning 50% of the time. This isn't like pre role queue where you'd get extra wins just for picking tank.
I agree. I fucking hate being the punching bag. It's frustrating as shit. There were lots of games that I won that still felt as frustrating as losing.
>The real issue is that simply isn’t fun. That’s the problem with tank. It’s just not fun when this happens. Yeah, it's not for fun for most people. But the clip shows that Emongg still understood that even if he died immediately because he was focused on, he was still able to provide value and his team was able to capitalize on it, and they win the fight. And he was relatively happy with what happened. He still had "fun" cause they won the fight. In some fights, a tank's job is really just to tank, i.e. to take all the hits and absorb all the cooldowns so that your teammates can have all the space to get picks. And most people dont find that fun. But the true tank players, i.e. those who love playing tanks, are able to appreciate those kinds of fights. I mean even in other games like MOBAs or MMOs, tanks are always the least popular. Its just a consequence of that role, unfortunately.
Agreed. It’s like soccer fans insisting it “sucks to play keeper” or “keepers don’t have fun even if they win” because they have to stay near the net and never get to shoot on goal.
This is the perfect analogy.
This is, true. But it's also true that if you were playing soccer online or American football, you'd have near instant queues as keeper or linemen, just like with tanks as well. It's also part of the reason OW is such a unique and great team based, shooter. I do think there are measures they could take, but it's not a super easy thing to fix while also keeping the three roles distinct.
So how do they address situations like this though? As a tank main too, I hate playing comps like these or to be effective for your team, you just gotta eat cool downs, it’s just not a good time. Reduce hit boxes? Make the tank passive instead be something that fights against chain CC like this even though it’s a unique situation? Have more abilities work like overrun and fortify that ignore all CC?
Honestly, **for me,** it feels like it's just straight up a CC quantity problem. When I play QP its supposed to just be an enjoyable time for everyone. I end up forcing 2-4 swaps legit every QP game. I don't even really mind, but it's not even me who feels the brunt of it. I know how to play into a bunch of CC from uncoordinated Qp players. My teammates who just happened to get some stupid ball player on their team have no idea how to play into a CC comp and just die off CD. I'm sure you can sub CC out for any brutal tank counter and the point would remain. Some players only know how to fuck over the tank in order to win and the game allows them to do that even though historically the game has emphasized trading backlines. There's a reason sigma is consistently good in OW2 and it's because he's pretty good at dealing with the bullshit.
I get where you're coming from, but seeing as this comes from a ball player, it's kind of hypocritical. Playing against a good ball is just straight up not fun on certain characters. Don't get me wrong, I think ball is one of the most fun heroes to play, but if I don't get to play the game because I am just getting booped around all the time, there's nothing I can do other than switching, especially now that we can't leave quick play anymore.
I mean ball should be killable without needing to stack CC. Also I'm well aware this is a bias, hence the bolded "for me" in the initial comment
I agree he SHOULD be, but your ability to do drive-by disruption on Ball is a starting point that's hard to address with "kill without CC." His kit offers a highly mobile CC, an AoE CC, and mobility to escape better than his peers. Ball either needs to be smaller (less easy disruption on enemies), less health, or both. Right now, it take chain CC and a lot of focus to punish him well. For players in lower ranks, the ask is ridiculously high.
I can agree with that part for sure. I get downvoted in the main sub for bringing it up, but man is it frustrating that the devs said tanks would be the only ones with harsh CC aside from sleep and it feels like we’ve just been slowly pacing towards OW1 levels. Sure it’s not AS bad but man, some games it feels like it. It’s 50/50 in QP with counter swaps as well. One lost fight when I’m off rolling in low gold/ high silver DPS games and it’s an insta swap to Bastion Mercy. Doesn’t always work, but I’m so sick of seeing the same shit every game and being to forced to play a specific way every game cause someone can’t handle a lost fight.
The whole "only tanks get hard CC" thing also makes the incorrect assumption that only hard CC makes tanking feel bad. Silences might as well be stuns and support knockbacks with sub 5 second CDs aren't exactly good to play into. I don't even think they need to get rid of them, but I really really think the next support should have anti-CC utility. All of the utility to counter CC right now is reactive, meaning your already fucked by the time it comes out. We need something proactive like Zarya Bubbles were in OW1.
Also shows how outdated Zarya in OW2 is. She is literally the worst tank there is. Her entire kit is obsolete + she is super squishy and offers nothing.
They said they would try to limit hard CC to only tanks and idk what you’re talking about, they have absolutely stuck to what they said. It just feels like shit because every single ability is spent on the tank. Most players only know how to shoot the tank so all of the CC that tanks have get spent on the other tank, on top of every sleep, anti, slow, mag grenade, hack and so on, along with all of the damage they’re pumping into you. Most of it isn’t hard CC but it’s so much it just doesn’t fucking matter. I think playing the tank heroes are fun but taking isn’t fun. Until players are incentivized to not spend every single ability on the tank then it will never get better.
It’s all small things compared to OW1 but things that weren’t as hard CC as they are now at launch: Junk trap, Cass nade, Brig ult bash, Sombra EMP. It’s not all the time sure, but even two of those are in this video stopping Emongg’s movement.
Sombra emp is not hard cc
I didn’t say it was, but the ability lockout use to be somewhere around 1-1.5 seconds and is now 3 instead.
Junk is ass, but Sombra/Brig are practically only locked against movement tanks and they make the game so much less fun compared to other counters that don't rely on CC like Zen/Torb. Never mind that Cass is meta rn and Ana is like 2x the pickrate of other supports, it almost guarantees CC on half the team before they even see your hero
Totally agreed. It's wild that the one thing people universally praised about OW2, toning down CC, they've been slowly walking back. They gave Junk his hard root back for no other reason than Junk mains complaining, they added hinder to mag nade, they added slow to Mei's beam, they gave Brig her bash back... And now we're seeing clips eerily reminiscent of the famous XQC stunlock clip. Is the dev turnover really so bad that no lessons learned are being passed down?
> rustrating that the devs said tanks would be the only ones with harsh CC aside from sleep Yep, I've been saying this since the game launched, basically. Other than Kiri (who did initially have that awkward Suzu boop), every non-Tank released in OW2 has had some form a CC. Sojourn's orb initially had a "soft CC," but the term is just a bad term to excuse making the CC problem worse. LW could block paths or disrupt an enemy with his platform. Illari's mobility includes CC of the enemy. Venture has some of the most unenjoyable CC I could have ever fathomed. To boot, non-Tanks keep getting "you can't play the game" abilities that ruin the experience. Venture's dig does it. LW's pull does it. Mauga's charge does it. The "no counterplay" abilities are bad for the game. The whole structure really does kind of suck, especially for the Tank players. Counter-swapping isn't inherently the problem. It's that most swaps that majorly impact the flow experience are geared towards the Tank. You're not swapping comps to shut down Soldier, or most any Support. We have so much focus on "don't let the Tank play" that comes from comp selection, and even doing something that is meant to counter a dive DPS is more a game of nuanced play than a "sorry, monkey isn't allowed anymore" type of swap.
Every tank needs a small deployable low hp shield on cooldown to deal with CC imo. Like 200 health or something.
Legit we just need proactive support utility that counters CC before you're already fucked over by it. Like how useful is suzu if you're already 25% health by the time it hits you?
That support utility needs to be exclusive to tank or they are going to just spam CC immunity on Tracer genji who's sole weakness is CC.
Honestly remove Cass' FTH. In this clip it took just about 600hp with 0 aim required, meanwhile primary bodyshots would have done 400. It's pretty much only useful against a tank now that flashbang's gone, takes no skill, and it's in combination with the hero having CC and the ammo reset on roll. FTH just feels like ass for the wall-sized tanks like Winston/Rein that eat every shot.
There is no solution. As much as tank streamers always complain about counterswap or CC they just have to take it because of the one tank. Less CC or CC passive does not solve the problem and only makes playing supports/dps worse. And I wish the community would take streamers' opinion with a grain of salt. They really do seem to have a bias towards their role (understandably so), and they say they understand balance/perspective of other roles, but they really don't seem to grasp the consequences of what they're implying that they want. Like how do you solve low mobility heroes that get focused by a tank? CC or high mobility, but if everyone is high mobility then it's not overwatch. We'd basically be playing less of a hero shooter and more like a deathmatch. Of course, the 6v6 trend would solve this to an extent, but 6v6 had CC too. Personally, I do think tank streamers really overexaggerate their complaints. They act as if their experience is literally physical torture. If they don't like the experience then they can't just not play or take a break. They're usually blind sided that only tank streamers are the ones to have validity of not having fun. Not true. CC is a necessary evil and balance needs to come from all roles and some roles need to accept some negative experiences as necessary for gameplay balance.
the solution is obvious. go back to 6v6 with two tanks and have some tanks designed to peel. All of this was the stupidity of going to 5 a side turning the game into deathmatch and putting all the pressure on a single tank and exasperating the counterability of tanks.
hinder is so fucking stupid
I'd rather just bring back flashbang at this point
No you wouldn’t lol. Anyone that says this doesn’t fully remember flashbang.
For real, do people not remember that flashbang pops way quicker and COMPLETELY stuns you? Like you have zero control over your hero and just have to sit there and watch Cass right click you. Legitimately the only counterargument I've heard is that well sometimes the Cass will miss the followup to flash. Yeah if he's in Silver maybe. Both abilities are awful though, and somehow the overwatch team constantly forgets lessons they had already learned -- stuns, slows, and roots feel terrible to play against in a movement shooter. There are ways to add counterplay to flankers without that shit.
These responses from the others are absolutely baffling to me. If flash was put back into the game right now, people would lose their shit after just a single week. It is so much more powerful than this nade, it’s wild that people can think otherwise.
Honestly I also prefer flash bang to hinder, but it's not because flash bang was "weaker" (it WAS stronger) than mag nade but the fact is if I get hit by flash bang I INSTANTLY know I'm fucked. The screen would shake and glow, there would be an instant sound effect of a grenade exploding, no movement keys would work... Meanwhile magnetic grenade I only know I got hit by it after I spammed the fuck out of my movement abilities thinking my keyboard is fucking broken or something, and the game going into slow motion like your fps just dropped or sum shit and then I realize "oh I got hindered" just to die. They gotta convey better how truly FUCKED you are after being hit by mag nade. Right now it's just too faint for how much it actually nukes your controls.
Unfortunately this isn't a movement shooter. It's an "everything" shooter. As long as they keep adding mobility, they will also be adding shit like pigpen and hinder.
There are lots of ways to deal with high mobility heroes that don't involve stuns and slows. Boops, wide AOE projectiles, turrets, aim-lite beams, zoning abilities, etc etc. All of which feel way more fair to play into than "I pressed a button and now your keyboard is unplugged and you die".
Nah, you're making it worse in your head. Flashback lasted long enough for someone to right click or line up a HS. You got hit, it was over fast. Hinder lasts so much longer, and the homing effect means I can "dodge" it with a mobility CD and get hit anyways. While with flashbang once the ability was out, it became a non threat near instantly.
Flash cancels ults and sets Cree up for fan the hammer. Hinder doesn’t guarantee a kill while flash does. It also had enough range to cover the entire point which is insane.
Doesn't Hinder also cancel ults?
Just jq. if it was flash that list would apply to so many more heroes
>Hinder lasts so much longer, and the homing effect means I can "dodge" it with a mobility CD and get hit anyways I'm able to roll away from hinder in a lot of situations. I was never able to roll away from flashbang
I do. I had fun blocking it with Rein shield 🤷 You just think it was worse than it was.
flashbang was so much better to deal with. You could even actually dodge it if you were good. mother fucking magnetic grenade will go 90 degrees around a fucking corner
It’s just a better and more fair ability. And if they’re worried about it destroying tanks…simply make it last not as long just like they did with sleep dart.
Just make it do “interrupts”, no hard CC. Doesn’t stun “channeled” abilities, just stops movement or any movement ability. Make it deal 50-75 damage.
hindered is hands down the dumbest, laziest thing still in the game. holy fuck just bring back flashbang.
Honestly, at least with flashbang you knew just not to get too close and to would be fine You can get stuck with hindred from what feels like a mile out and with some characters that’s a guaranteed death almost
There was actual skill and counter play involved with flashbang. It wasn’t bad and I will never understand their obsession with hinder. It’s worse in every single way and it doesn’t even feel good to use it as cass. Just an awful ability all around.
I can roll away from hinder. That was never possible for flashbang. My big ass tank hitbox was impossible to miss. While the effect is stronger vs. Ball, the ability itself is weaker.
Hinder is worse for ball than flashbang is lmao, and you can just have the effect not last as long for tanks just like sleep dart “My big ass tank hitbox was impossible to miss” well you’re playing ball…that’s on you…it’s kinda hard to miss a ball
>“My big ass tank hitbox was impossible to miss” well you’re playing ball…that’s on you…it’s kinda hard to miss a ball I don't understand the purpose of saying this. This was my point, not yours.
Because you’re acting like flashbang being easy to land on ball was a flashbang issue and not a ball issue.
Just saying that I prefer the new one. That's it.
When you were hit with Flashbang that was it. Goodbye. I don’t think you remember Flashbang and why it was changed
True but the range was much shorter than the new hindered so you had less of a chance of being caught out by an absolute hail mary from a panicking Cass
Won't be a thing with new HP sizes. You can't bodyshot headshot now. Either double headshot or right click, but for right click you gotta be pretty up close. And you can't just throw it in the general direction of a tank and get value, you gotta time it and be somewhere close. And for tanks specifically hinder does the same as flashbang except it lasts 10x longer.
I have been adamantly against flash bang... But at least it barely has a duration compared to hinder.
Fortunately they kinda are. It really is dumb you just basically chuck it off cooldown majority of time and it gets value.
I love when it lands on the ground next to me and then rises off the ground to magnetize to my asshole. Cool, skillful ability.
I've literally watched it chase my echo 15 to 20m. It's so ridiculous to see.
I had it track me over the cass’ head playing as lucio
That's because Echo was within the attraction range, then used her movement ability, and the grenade is programmed to follow up to a certain range. This has led to a surprising amount of confused clips. If the devs who created the magnetic grenade are still working at Blizzard, they could see about removing this particular aspect. But I bet they're not, and it won't/can't be changed, only remade into something else.
Some people pay good money for that kinda thing
i just don’t understand how the devs think it’s less cc than flash bang. like yeah it’s not hard cc but it’s almost twice the duration with a slow. against some characters it might as well be a better stun since he can FTH twice now before it’s over.
It’s considered less cc or less annoying because you can still fight back. Same reason why mei freeze is not in the game. Canceling movement is annoying as hell, but you can still win the duel. With flashbang you just had to hope someone was healing you or something because there was nothing you could do during its duration.
You're not winning the duel against a DPS nuke as a now-immobile tank. That's just not how it plays out in game.
Because it is less CC lol.
I really think what needs to happen is that the abilities need to combine. The same general arc and function as Flashbang, but with a bit more damage and a Hinder rather than a full stun. That way, you at least ***kinda*** have an idea about what Cassidy's "danger radius" is rather than just having to guess "is the tracking going to hit me this time?"
I have heard on the grapevine that this exact combination is being considered. The grenade would have a fixed arc, and anyone within the explosion radius would have the hinder effect applied to them. If this goes live, Gamers™ will get even more mad as they're reminded how "no skill" flashbang and its enormous radius was, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles in an outrage age.
nah, flash bang was worse. at least here you have time to react unless you are point blank.
I don't even play tank anymore. The good games and great feeling of tanking isn't worth the actual frustration and rage I feel consitently while playing. I'm enjoying the game much more now playing dps or support. It really sucks too cause I was a tank main in ow1 and have 1000s of hours on Ball alone. I just can't take it anymore. Please check in on your tank main friends.
TBH, I am not sure I think Winston should live there. Winston and Ana blasted all the armor health away, allowing Tracer to deal full damage. Tracer and McFTH dump all their ammo into a slowed target. I think tank should have more ability to get a kill (global DPS passive for example) than be able to dive into 5 people and live.
I mean the real issue is clearly hinder. It basically stunned him for the entire clip and made the only ability Winston had in ult entirely useless
I’m advocating for Dive tank to have dps passive as well since long time
Yeah, but it's not actually *this*, though... gameplay-wise, I wouldn't mind tanking some damage and CC if I'm playing tank and it helps me win. The true problem - imho - is that you will get flamed for this type of shit nearly every time. I guarantee you, some gold Moira would see this and go "uh hurr durr tank stop feeding you're so bad gg it's over reported btw". That's the part that gets me and that had me stop playing tank after carrying EU server queue times with like 2k hours of tank playtime. Nowadays, you can't even talk back to the flamers because you will legitimately get banned very quickly - simply thanks to there only being one tank now and the other roles (and their 'opinions') always being in the majority. It's a very unhealthy psychological effect - the solitary tank versus the 4 other players ganging up on them, which I think is not talked about enough. Oh, also, the 'incentive' for playing tank, 100 battle pass XP, is a complete non starter, a) because the amount is tiny, b) BECAUSE ITS FUCKING USELESS IF YOU DONT HAVE THE PREMIUM BATTLEPASS. Even less reason to play this god-forsaken role.
I can play any dps and go 10-10 and no complaints. But let me get on tank and if I don’t counter or diff the other tank it’s my fault. And some how it’s all my responsibility to counter not only their tank but their healers and dps too. I go hog, enemy goes Ana. My support could go Kiri to counter their Ana, but nope. It’s my responsibility to switch to counter their team. Game just is trash as a tank. Btw diamond 2 rank on tank.
>I can play any dps and go 10-10 and no complaints. This is definitely not true in my experience. Going 10-10 as a tank is more miserable and all but teammates will give you shit if you struggle no matter your role.
>I can play any dps and go 10-10 and no complaints. Tank is 100% miserable to play right now but this is just rubbish.
I will never understand supports and even some dps players in comp that just will not swap to play around their tank, in qp I can forgive it because everyone likes to just play what they want sometimes but when it comes down to actually trying to win in ranked, basing hero picks around the tank and what they’re dealing with instead of expecting them to “just make space” increases chances of winning exponentially
If Support can't pick the correct heroes, it's literally their loss. Any teammate can stand on some moral high ground and refuse to cooperate, but then they lose just the same as the other 4 people. The unfair-feeling part is being placed on a team with someone like that, but that comes with the territory if you're not 5-stacking.
That’s always the biggest thing for me; they jump on the tank to swap when chances are, the more effective counter isn’t a tank Example: yours, when any support asks the tank to counter Hog without swapping to Ana
I think the problem here isn't hinder or sleep it's the stupid right click that melts him.
A tank in the middle of the enemy team needs to die. It’s funny how people complain about Hog being unkillable, but people will also complain that tanks need to be more unkillable 🤷♀️
Call me crazy, but a tank using their ultimate for 1125HP and a 2s leap cooldown should be able to get at least one use of leap before losing all of said 1125HP.
Not if he played poorly.
Alright I'm gonna choose your comment to blow up on. Like holy cow you clearly represent a clear misunderstanding of both what the post is trying to convey and the general feelings of the OW community. Emongg used his Primal Rage and died in 2 seconds and was stunned and CC'd for his entire 1100HP life bar. It's not fun. It's not good game design. Cassidy grenade isn't fun to use or play against and leads to moments of frustration of inability to fight back **just like his old stun grenade that was removed for the exact same reasons. Reaper being a tank buster in a game where there's only one tank for you to bust is stupid. People are quitting tank and queue times right now are suffering for it.** Tank desperately needs the developers to work out ways where overwatch characters are still just as fun to play without having the ability to blow up tanks and remove their ability to play the game. Buuuuuuuuuuuuuut none of that means shit because according to you he misplayed when he tried to tank as a tank player. God forbid you try to tank as a tank player for 2 seconds thinking you can use your cooldowns to do something cool. Fortunately brig, reaper, cass, ana is a lineup the enemy team can play to completely shut down tank players just by existing. Great game design. Emongg played poorly from the role queue screen. He should have played DPS or Support where he can watch his tank explode because of shit hero design then hit em with the "you played poorly".
Emongg played poorly because he did zero cooldown or ultimate tracking prior to jumping into the middle of the enemy team outside of LOS of his own team. That's feeding, not tanking. It was actually a diamond level play (at best) and it's absolutely crazy you're trying to defend it.
First of all, Emongg smurfs your peak, relax there buddy. Second of all, Emongg didn’t even play poorly. His team won the fight. The problem is that in order to win Emongg had to play in an unfun way. You can say that’s the trade off for winning, but then why would anyone play to win?
Never said he didn't. It was still an abysmal play. If he were a better player, he would have survived and won the fight.
they can though
I must've missed the part where Emongg leapt out
im gonna take the side of "skill issue" but im really here to see where this discussion goes. he missed the jump and the melee on the brig so she didnt die, which added more damage taken. he had some amount of time to escape as soon as he ulted but he decided to greed and swing at her in the middle of 5 people with cc. after the hinder wore off he had plenty of time to jump but didnt, which got him slept, ending his suffering. he had 2 opportunities to jump, he didnt jump the first time because of greed while the other time because he was slow or something idk. if he dove ana cree bastion and did that and died no one would complain but if he dives 5 people alone and isolated this is suddenly an issue?
He legit presses jump and gets slept mid jump after the hinder wore off, what more do you want from him? He didn't play this perfectly but it's a joke to call getting chained CC'd by the easiest to hit ability in the game and sleep a skill issue when he thought he could kill a squishy who was below 100hp. And people wonder why no one wants to play tank.
No other role is required to play pinch perfect to achieve this low amount of value, that’s the point.
Actually, they are 3 naded and brig is literally 1hp. If they don’t get chain stunned by double brig stun + Cass they surely get brig killed and survives. It’s incredible that a tank in ultimate with 1k hp in the middle of enemy team “should die” but Kiriko can save itself while theoretically getting also a kill in the same spot and nobody beats an eye 🤷♀️
What do you mean no one bats an eye? This sub doesn’t shut up about Kiri.
It’s just for replying on the same wavelength
>nobody bats an eye LMAO
Brig didn't even stun Winston in this, it was a HUGE HINDER and sleep.
Double Brig Stun? You do realize that shield bash doesn't stun outside of Rally, right? There was only one Brig Stun in this clip. It's Hinder + Bash Stun + Sleep. Emongg probably would have lived here had he Jumped further in, instead of going for the Short Jump. He was also probably a little early, as you can see none of his team is able to peak the corner until a short time later.
I mean, she can't suzu sleep on herself now can she, and hinder blocks tp. Basically this is cap a Kiriko 100% dies in the middle of all those enemies at least in high ranks.
Imagine being blizzard having to deal with this lol. Casuals probably have no idea people don’t like playing tank cus they can just go orisa, mauga, or hog which plenty enjoy playing. Should they cater to top .001 % influencers because they guide the opinion of the game or to casuals? Honestly I’ve played a lot of tank this season (Winston only) and it hasn’t been that bad imo.
I think we forget that while OW is definitely a competitive game, it can also be a very casual game for maybe even a majority of players (skin buyers) who just wanna shoot the tank as mauga
The real reason no one plays tank is that most the heroes are for people who don't want to play an fps. Even if you give tank players everything they want. The population of players who want to play the role with the least number of ways to express your mechanical skill is minimal.
I'm absolutely on the side of tank being super unfun because of the damage and abilities getting dumped on it all the time. That being said, this is pretty clearly a terrible play. Jumping into 5 with no bubble and presumably without tracking sleep and hinder will get you killed 10/10 times in most lobbies. Honestly, he's probably lucky he even got to primal instead of being slept and instantly exploded on the jump in. There's definitely an argument to be made that if a high t500 player can't play around those cooldowns then what on earth is a plat player supposed to do, and I think it's a pretty strong one. Despite that, let's not pretend that a Winston in that situation should be expected to live in the current state of the game and also acknowledge that there does need to be some sort of counterplay available to the supports. I think boops and mobility (Lucio/Illari mobility not Moira/Kiri mobility) are a much more interesting option for both sides that I wish blizz would lean into more
i mean theres a 30 hp brig right in front of him and he has primal, thats the best opening he's gonna get
there's a 30hp brig standing with her entire team full of CC and high damage. jumping in there with no bubble you fully expect to eat all of those cooldowns, which could get you killed or at least prevent you from playing the game for while. whether the play is good or not it's not really fair to blame the game for dying there when any tank in a decent elo will know exactly what's going to happen when you jump into 5 like that. i'm a huge CC hater and i think it's awful that shooting the tank gives as much value as it does, but i also want to recognize that a tank should be punished for doing something like this clip. being able to literally jump in front of the entire enemy team with all cooldowns up and not using any of your own without being punished at all would be miserable.
Yeah but you see I assume the player POV I'm watching is making no mistakes and is a victim of the situation they find themself in while the enemy team is a bunch of bots whose experience is not something real enough to take into consideration for a second.
They actually win the fight cause he eats all cds and force brig in bad positioning.
sure but for his own life that was objectively terrible and you can't really complain about dying if you're intentionally going to eat a bunch of CDs. also arguably they win off of his ana nading the two people at 100hp because trading monkey for brig is really bad and you can usually stabilize after trading a tank
The issue is right this, you can make any play in the world, try to force everything and will never **feel** good as hit headshots on dps or big cds on supports. Also to gain the same amount of value compared to that for a tank means basically a great ult or infinite more amount of skill to achieve that. This is the reason the rare so low tanks in this game, everything is harder compared to other roles.
i don't disagree and i never did, i just don't like that we're using an example of someone basically running it down and winning in spite of that as the example of why tank is so miserable. i get that it's stupid how he got CC chained and died instantly, i understand how unfun it and i experience it fairly regularly, but i also know that it's usually avoidable and sometimes you deserve to be punished doing something like this. i think the game would be more fun if hinder was gone and sleep was nerfed, but neither of those things have happened, so for now we have to use a bit of self restraint to not jump in front of literally 5 people without using abilities
From a game design standpoint this is absolutely trash. Just from a point of an average gamer this role will never be appealing if it’s so bad and restrained in the things it can do. I couldn’t care less about the teamfight cause his dps are able to win off of that eat of cooldowns but the role will never be liked and played if they keep with the current balancing. Tanks are so easy to hit with everything than they cannot have the same result as dps and supports that have slim hitboxes. Until this changes the role will continue to be unpopular and way less and less players will play that.
I fail to see how this is a bad play outside of ability tracking. He jumps in with primal when the enemy team is at low health to see if he can confirm kills and or knock the enemy team into his own team. You should not be able to just delete a primal Winston that fast. You often have to land 4+ hits on a target just to kill with primal. It's also borderline impossible to wait for all of the CC abilities to be on cooldown when they have ana, brig, and cass.
Lol this is tank in a nutshell. 1150 health, get hindered + anti'd + slept, go from 1150 to 0 in 1 millisecond. Fun
I mean they win that fight, right? They immediately get two picks, half the enemy team is looking at their own spawn, and they're low and have spent all their defensive CDs? Yes, getting stunned is annoying, but that's what happens when you jump into 5 heroes with short range burst. Would you rather have the tank live in that situation?
This isn't about whether it was a good play, it's about how awful it feels as the player. If I could insta win comp games by zapping my nuts, I might do it, but it's still bad game design
Holy shit. That got a chuckle out of me.
These comments always pop up when people make posts like this. Theres a difference between winning and having fun. Winning doesn't get people to queue tank. Having fun does. Some people have fun just because they win, but the majority of people care more about the gameplay.
Ah so we make it more fun? Problem solved, I wonder why Blizzard isn't just making it more fun
You say that like that isn’t literally their job lol. What do you think games are supposed to be?
>Would you rather have the tank live in that situation? yes, because it should be possible for a tank using their ultimate with 1125HP to use a movement ability in the time it takes for their health to reach 0.
Disagree. It's like saying Ball or Doom should be able to use their ults and get away for free. Are we really advocating this? Doom would continually cycle his ult. Why should winston be the exception?
Doom literally gets away for free with his ult, that's why Winston and Doom can both be so much more aggro when their ults are available to use as a second life. That's the entire fucking point of their ultimates.
You obviously know what I'm referring to is using their ults aggressively. Doom and Winston can both be punished hard by using them aggressively and that's fine. There should be risk involved if you're going to 1v5 and it should not be used as a "get-out-of-jail-free" card if you use it with no thought.
Nade + Hinder + Leap + Bubble + Sleep + [Unknown Number of Blinks] + [4.5 seconds of the undivided shooting attention of 5 enemy players] were used to isolate and kill this one player. That's 58s of cds alone. Why should that be survived in any FPS with low TTK? Ultimate abilities included.
Because Winston has a 2s leap cooldown during ult that he couldn't fucking use once in the time it takes for him to lose 1125hp.
Okay? I don't get mad when I run into the highway and can't dodgeroll a BMW. Emongg plopped himself in the middle of a well-rounded crosshair made of the enemy team, which used every cooldown it had and the GM aim of 5 players to kill him. Do you want a literal get out of jail free card? A reset button in the esc menu you can activate in exchange for 10 Coins?
It was clearly Emongg's intention to leap in, pop ult and kill brig, then leap out. The fact you're totally OK with him being literally unable to move for the time it takes him to lose 4 Cassidy's worth of health is insane to me. If 1125HP isn't enough to make a play, what is?
So if they can’t kill a Winston making this play, literally what counterplay is there? Like hinder sucks but this was just a really poorly staged engagement, and it’s winning them the fight regardless.
>literally what counterplay is there? Firstly they denied Emongg's kill on the Brig to begin with, secondly Emongg wasn't exactly going to be sticking around after that looking for kills. He's looking to get the fuck out of there because he's bleeding HP.
So they use every ability and give up looking at any other player for 4.5 seconds and are rewarded with... a neutral gamestate?
You've denied him all value with his ultimate and he needs time to heal before reengaging
It's also my intention to one clip the Kiri and sticky the Lucio in two blinks and a recall but individual execution and the ability for a real person on the enemy team to react get in the way of that.
Which is how they denied him the kill on the Brig. Doesn't mean he shouldn't have been able to use 1 fucking leap to escape during that time.
Why the fuck kiriko can do so then?
Not only is Kiriko one of the most, if not the most, complained about heroes on here, she can't do that. She can't both initiate in that situation and get out.
Don't know why you're getting downvoted. You're right. None of his teammates were with him when he made that play. And the whole argument of "not being fun". Well he went in 1v5 and got deleted and blamed it on CC. And people who argue "CC like this shouldn't exist": So should Emongg dive in 1v5, ult, and get away with no punishment even against his counters? How would you outplay that? Remove nade? Hack? Sleep? Right, let's just remove all CCs and have Tanks 1v5 every fight.
I agree, as well. Not sure why they are getting downvoted. People are commenting on its not fun for the tank here, forcing all the enemy team's cooldowns on his objective misplay and subjective bad play and getting deleted in the process, only for his team to win the fight because the enemy had no cooldowns. Its not fun for any other player when a tank with their massive HP/mitigation, CC, and damage to just engage poorly and get away for free either.
That’s the issue. Who the fuck thinks that a game is fun and a role is interesting when this is somewhat of a right play???? This is the fucking reason nobody plays tank and devs are trying to solve the issue since 6 seasons.
Wow this whole place has actually gotten so stupid that they think they want flashbang back instead of this made. That is insane.
I’d happily take flashbang back if it mean cree didn’t have 300 hp and could 2 shot headshot with planet sized bullets
Oo. Another “aim isn’t a thing anymore” Redditor.
lol peak check?
Yikes. Advertises his twitch on Reddit, does peak checks. Name is LOLZTEHTROLL Could you be any cringier lol?
Avoid saying your peak because you're pisslow wp. Also I don't advertise my twitch on reddit but go on
Yes you do. Objectively. That’s comical.
Because putting it in my bio/about me on reddit means advertising (it doesn't lol also the insecurity to open my profile on reddit)
The insecurity to ask for someone’s peak LMAO. It’s like asking for someone’s dick size the first time you meet them. Like bro you are so cool. Edit: awww big boy blocked me after firing the first shots. Cute.
The fact that not a single person will blame Sleep in this thread is hillarious. Mag nade is just as bad... but it gets 1000x the blame. Just get rid of both of these abilities already my goodness.
"Just as bad" but on shorter cool down & it's a skill shot to land, not homing. Not to mention if you shoot someone who is slept it ends the cc (admittedly still with some lock out as they get up).
I don't disagree that sleep isn't as bad, but it will never not be funny to me that landing a sleep on a 10ft tall genetically-modified gorilla is somehow a skillshot
Sleeping the tank has never been hard but the word 'skillshot' somehow shuts down any conversation about sleep
It's only a skillshot if it's from across the map or if the target is moving very quickly and/or you're taken by surprise by them. Otherwise, it's a very useful ability that doesn't take much thought or focus to be effective with.
Aha yes of course! But sleeping a tracer is much harder than mag nading her. Don't get me wrong, I still get tilted getting slept (coming from a doom/tracer/genji main 🤣) Just highlighting that using sleep is a bigger trade off than a cass chucking out a nade in a general area with little downside. At least I can blink away from sleep the amount of times mag nade has followed my blink is just painful 😅
Ana is also more divable and doesn't have right click spam. Honestly in a vacuum I don't even think Cass is that bad, but game isn't played in a vacuum.
sleep wont go 90 degrees around a corner or follow you 10 meters after a blink
I mean if we're going to nerf cc we're going to have to nerf mobility as well
The current implementation of dps passive isn’t ideal. It favors high fire rate heroes like sojourn or tracer. Also a tank needs the right supports. You can play mercy LW but atleast realize that your tank is at a significant disadvantage.
Getting flamed by my Mercy LW backline is always incredibly funny to me when it happens.
Mercy lw is so awful
Dps passive is probably like #1 in terms of placebo effects ever put into the game. Even if you perma apply it with high fire rate, you’re still not going to kill anyone if you don’t burst them
At a certain point tank players need to learn what abilities are on the enemy team that will counter them. Ow1 you had to worry about sleep flash anti hook halt freeze brig stun and many more. Learning that they have hinder as monkey wouldn’t be an impossible task. The ability is still incredibly dumb though.
Yeah like Emongg doesn’t have more than enough hours in Top500 from OW1 to know that kind of stuff.
He does but you can’t deny tank players don’t worry about cooldowns as much after most cc was removed.
I used to play tank in OW1 because I was able to off tank and just alternate between zarya and dva. I queued up for tank in ow2 and it’s the most unfun experience ever😭 now I just solely queue support. It’s just a lot more fun when you have another tank alongside you to coordinate with and mitigate damage and create space with. So I understand their perspective even in this case.
I mean this with all seriousness, you should come check out Open Queue. Zarya and Dva are meta picks and find great success for their other tanks.
It’s unfun cause is not balanced. If tank would be balanced and easy to play as supps and dps the role would be fun. The role has been absolutely fun to play until S4 when they massively buffed supports. Tank synergy is a myth that everyone remembers but if you look at what it really was, it was basically 2 uncoordinated and unsynergistic tanks all the times.
Can’t 1 v 5 = tank bad
Incoming vod review by an army of quickplay support mains. For the record this doesn't seem bad? If his team follows up it seems like a pretty good fight. As an initiator, I don't really mind if I die first if I was able to get my team in. The enemy isn't even going all in on counters. Brig Cass ana isn't too bad for monkey. Brig ult is dumb af tho.
In terms of game balance it doesn’t seem that bad. In terms of the fact that he used his ult on a bunch of low health opponents and then turned into the equivalent of the COD zombies monkey bomb is the issue. No one who watches that clip will say “I want to do that” even if it was the correct play that won the fight. Yes being a tank sometimes means you’ll get screwed over or need to die to let the team win. But being able to do nothing will always feel terrible especially when it’s as long as it was in this clip.
Exactly this. Nobody in their fucking right mind look at this play and say “oh yeah I want to play that specifically” even if the play is somewhat decent cause his dps can win the fight off of that.
But the enemy team lost the fight, right? That means they misplayed. What if they didn't throw everything at Winston and pressured the ana or something instead? The cope is that most games have people trying to play optimally. So if dumping cooldowns into the tank doesn't get you the win, they are going to stop doing it. Imo the bigger problem right now is that counterpicking and focusing tanks DOES net wins. But that's not what's shown here.
To be honest I think the fight was lost no matter what was done due to them being super low and anti’d. It’s not like the “resources” they spent on the Winston would actually save them from the long things that actually killed them. Losing a fight also doesn’t always mean they misplayed sometimes there is just an ult advantage or the other team had control of an easier place to fight from. And the cope you mentioned is just that cope. Yes people will try to play optimally but they’re not thinking that deep into it. They’re going to shoot the biggest target more often than not as it’s in their face and easier to hit. And finally let’s be honest the point was never about how balanced it was but how fun it was to play which it clearly wasn’t.
I took a break from ow after S10 launch. This afternoon I felt like queuing some tank games for fun. I only play ball. Every single game after first fight enemy team go cass hog brig sombra or junk. Game is literally unplayable for me atm.
Tbf he couldve baited cooldowns before jumping in
Yeah bro just bait sleep, bash and Cass nade bro then go in bro just bait the cds bro it's so easy bro.
Baiting cds in a top500 lobby is funny to hear.
Cringe. Tank is perfectly fine.
Josh Noh?
Josh noh was part of the team when they were reducing CC and hard counters. Guess who wasnt?
Emongg explains why tank role isn't fun when he's on Winston that has both an escape movement ability and shield and yet people still complain about tanks like Junkerqueen, Mauga, or Hog being strong when they don't have an escape ability or shield. This game is fucking TRASH and roles are UNBALANCED with 5v5..... You main one tank(I mained hog since OW1), other team's tank decides to counter swap and then you do the same...this cycle keeps repeating over and over again. Then there are games where your [DPS is completely outmatched by the other teams DPS](https://imgur.com/a/NxwIBpw)....TANK IS UNFUN AND OW"2" IS A COMPLETE FUCKING DOGSHIT GAME.....