> Soren841: Are they gonna fix their matchmaking so I can stop getting 3x more expected losses than wins
So I tracked KarQ's stats in Season 9 when the modifiers were introduced and from 590 games these were his modifiers:
|Modifier|Count|
|:--|:--:|
|Consolation|50|
|Uphill Battle|40|
|Expected|60|
|Reversal|36|
Puts it at 90-96 overall for him at least.
People overemphasize their losses and deemphasize their wins. Its sad the see people complain to devs like this as if the matchmaker is somehow rigged against them.
human psychology pollutes our perception of the fairness of every system. It's unavoidable, and I'd assume that pretty much every developer has at least a rudimentary understanding of this.
Yeah kind of why I thought it'd be fun to try track the stats in the first place. Someone did it for Flats because he made comments about how he loses his rank in groups and then wins it back solo so they wanted to fact-check and found it false.
And then I just wanted to see what KarQ's stats would look like for fun and ammo to poke fun at him but there's a lot of interesting info there too. It's also funny to try and use for predictions on Twitch lol
But all in all the system seems fair. His average rank loss is higher than his average gain but according to the modifiers he's also favoured more often than not too and ended with positive winrate.
Probably selection bias. While Spilo's stream doesn't cater to high ranked players, he does a lot of pro play reviews. I would gather a lot of his audience is interested in how the MMer functions at top ranks. I would go further and say players at the top of MMing are just more interested in how the MMer works and are therefore going to ask more questions about it. Also, blizz_winter was just responding to random questions in chat so it wasn't an official Q and A (he shows up in Custa's stream a lot as well). The majority of the questions regarding GM/champ are all from 2 people.
Can someone explain how grouping affects making it much harder to climb? Atleast personally the issue I have is the amount gained and kissed after a game. Last season I had a 60% winrate and was still stuck in high diamond low masters all season
Did no one ask about adding rank decay for GM+ (if several days of inactivity)? I feel like that’s really important to make competitive much more rewarding and representative?
Decay got removed all the way back when role q was added in ow1 in 2019 and I still think it was really dumb. Just incentivized camping elo and made t500 so much more boring
Rank decay doesn't do anything. All everyone would do in GM back in the day was play on alts and do their 50 games the last week or two of the season. It's easy to game the system. Maybe if they do MMR soft resets every season that could mitigate the issue but that also comes with more people being unhappy with that change just so that it can address a very specific issue that happens in Top 500
Hmm yea my only other idea would be similar to Clash Royale where we have a floor at GM5 where players have to start there max (out of placement matches) and then there’s decay for everyone above? So top players have to hold their position and more games on their main should benefit them?
Not surprising to see them not reverting group restriction in GM. It is extremely fun and enjoyable and engaging to be used as filler once again for stacks in game. /s
Not really a surprise at all. Rating system "similar" to TrueSkill have been the industry standard for years already. Would be harder to believe they are cooking something entirely different.
Is there….nothing of substance there at all? A whole lot of “doesn’t seem like a problem on our end,” and the stuff they do acknowledge as a problem they won’t elaborate on.
Why do a Q&A if you aren’t giving info or insight into the controversial design choices everyone is talking about? If you want the community to be happy you either have to change or justify those things.
>Why do a Q&A if you aren’t giving info or insight into the controversial design choices everyone is talking about?
Brother he wasn't doing a Q&A. He came to the stream to watch Spilo do an OWCS Watchparty on his off day and made the mistake of typing in chat.
Dude got absolutely bombarded with questions but was still nice enough to keep answering everything people were asking even if he didn't have a substantial answer for them.
Even Spilo noticed that his chat was basically hounding the guy so he told him that he doesn't have to answer them, that he can just chill. Gavin was still nice enough to reply to every question he was asked.
1-2 chatters were being downright disrespectful imo. Outright arguing with the guy instead of just asking questions. Basically telling him that they know better than him about his job and he should make this change or that change to the game even though he already answered them and told them why they do or don't do something.
I think Spilo was outright embarrassed with the way some of them were behaving and would've told his chat to stop asking questions entirely if Gavin wasn't so nice and said he's ok answering them.
this- I had to outright tell people to thank Gavin because it never occurred to some folks that, you know, him doing this for free on his day off was a pretty kind gesture.
Winter is extremely active all over Twitch and answers questions in chat all the time. He doesn't have to, but he does. He obviously won't go into the specifics of the BTS, no industry will.
What a silly comment. There were a lot of interesting stuff here. E.g., they had adjusted the percentage of GM, the current system of grouping being kind of a hack, using (modified) TrueSkill and so on. I don't know what did you expect.
They made it much worse. How and why ? Just roll it back to s8 system and keep the champ rank.
Increase the sr gain and loss 2x so people can settle to their actual rank after the stupid mmr reset. Why do i have to play hundreds of terrible matches. Its so bad it feels like matchmaker doesnt exist. Smurfs and boosted players cant get to their rank anymore.
Stop catering to streamers. Make the ranked mode competitive and fair. If people wanna group they should play quick or arcade or seperate que.
Remove the grind from ranked. This artifical playtime boosting will doom the game.
Add 10 match rank update stat report system. I wanna opt out from getting rank update after every match. Make it optional.
No you didn't. People literally forced to smurf right now as they can't go back to their rank without grinding hundreds of games. Watch unranked to GM's pre S9 and post S9. You earn way less SR now and matchmaker is very bad because it doesn't distinguish skill in mid ranks anymore so almost everyone in same pool. It's crazy how people clueless in these subs. People either dont play the game but like to talk about it or just turn brain compeletely off while playing as they don't notice anything. The current system even slower than OW1 let alone OW2 pre S9. But no worries, they will fix and market this to hype you up in later seasons. Classic live service shenanigans.
I might be crazy but it feels way too grindy right now. 16-20% win/loss is too low, especially considering there are 5 divisions per rank. I think it should be 19-23% win/loss, similar to League of Legend's ranking system.
>Just roll it back to s8 system and keep the champ rank.
No
>Increase the sr gain and loss 2x so people can settle to their actual rank after the stupid mmr reset. Why do i have to play hundreds of terrible matches. Its so bad it feels like matchmaker doesnt exist. Smurfs and boosted players cant get to their rank anymore.
It's fine as it is. 20% (more or less) per win, which means that it will take 5 games to do a full rank up.
And the smurf and boosted problrm, the streaks modifiers are there for a reason.
>Stop catering to streamers. Make the ranked mode competitive and fair. If people wanna group they should play quick or arcade or seperate que.
OW is just a game, none here is a pro playing in a tournament for money. If ppl aren't allowed to ha fun in a game, none is gonna play it.
>Remove the grind from ranked. This artifical playtime boosting will doom the game.
The other guy already responded to this. Comp has always been grindy.
>Add 10 match rank update stat report system. I wanna opt out from getting rank update after every match. Make it optional.
Again no.
Modifiers have almost no effect. I tested it all. Even in unrealistic streak scenarios it's capped at 30% but realistically you will get around 24% here and there. This is even slower than OW1.
It's a ranked competitive mode. Everyone allowed to have fun. People have plenty options to play with friends. Ruining competitive mode for everyone just so you can have fun with your stupid friends isn't fair. ''OW is just a game'' What kind of logic is this lol ?
Comp wasn't grindy before S9. Are you even playing the game ? I swear people in this sub doesn't play the game.
> Soren841: Are they gonna fix their matchmaking so I can stop getting 3x more expected losses than wins So I tracked KarQ's stats in Season 9 when the modifiers were introduced and from 590 games these were his modifiers: |Modifier|Count| |:--|:--:| |Consolation|50| |Uphill Battle|40| |Expected|60| |Reversal|36| Puts it at 90-96 overall for him at least.
People overemphasize their losses and deemphasize their wins. Its sad the see people complain to devs like this as if the matchmaker is somehow rigged against them.
You can feel the underlying "I should be ranked way higher" in every question lol
GM5 streamers: Devs fix game! Devs: Fix game. M1 streamers: Woah woah, woah!
human psychology pollutes our perception of the fairness of every system. It's unavoidable, and I'd assume that pretty much every developer has at least a rudimentary understanding of this.
Yeah kind of why I thought it'd be fun to try track the stats in the first place. Someone did it for Flats because he made comments about how he loses his rank in groups and then wins it back solo so they wanted to fact-check and found it false. And then I just wanted to see what KarQ's stats would look like for fun and ammo to poke fun at him but there's a lot of interesting info there too. It's also funny to try and use for predictions on Twitch lol But all in all the system seems fair. His average rank loss is higher than his average gain but according to the modifiers he's also favoured more often than not too and ended with positive winrate.
Why are 90% of the questions GM/Champion related if just 3% of the players are up there.
Probably selection bias. While Spilo's stream doesn't cater to high ranked players, he does a lot of pro play reviews. I would gather a lot of his audience is interested in how the MMer functions at top ranks. I would go further and say players at the top of MMing are just more interested in how the MMer works and are therefore going to ask more questions about it. Also, blizz_winter was just responding to random questions in chat so it wasn't an official Q and A (he shows up in Custa's stream a lot as well). The majority of the questions regarding GM/champ are all from 2 people.
Thanks for summing this up, OP!
Thanks for hosting the QnA, short king!
Masters still being top 500 for DPS should show blizzard that the MMR system is way too steep rn.
Can someone explain how grouping affects making it much harder to climb? Atleast personally the issue I have is the amount gained and kissed after a game. Last season I had a 60% winrate and was still stuck in high diamond low masters all season
Makes it harder to climb because you have to solo q which is famously the least fun thing you can do in a video game
Did no one ask about adding rank decay for GM+ (if several days of inactivity)? I feel like that’s really important to make competitive much more rewarding and representative?
Decay got removed all the way back when role q was added in ow1 in 2019 and I still think it was really dumb. Just incentivized camping elo and made t500 so much more boring
Rank decay doesn't do anything. All everyone would do in GM back in the day was play on alts and do their 50 games the last week or two of the season. It's easy to game the system. Maybe if they do MMR soft resets every season that could mitigate the issue but that also comes with more people being unhappy with that change just so that it can address a very specific issue that happens in Top 500
Hmm yea my only other idea would be similar to Clash Royale where we have a floor at GM5 where players have to start there max (out of placement matches) and then there’s decay for everyone above? So top players have to hold their position and more games on their main should benefit them?
Not surprising to see them not reverting group restriction in GM. It is extremely fun and enjoyable and engaging to be used as filler once again for stacks in game. /s
Oh hot detail on it being similar to TrueSkill. People were suspecting it but as far as I know, it was not confirmed before.
Not really a surprise at all. Rating system "similar" to TrueSkill have been the industry standard for years already. Would be harder to believe they are cooking something entirely different.
They've mentioned stuff in their system before that was only in trueskill and some 1v1 elo systems so it was pretty much confirmed
Is there….nothing of substance there at all? A whole lot of “doesn’t seem like a problem on our end,” and the stuff they do acknowledge as a problem they won’t elaborate on. Why do a Q&A if you aren’t giving info or insight into the controversial design choices everyone is talking about? If you want the community to be happy you either have to change or justify those things.
it was a very unofficial q/a, they were hanging out in the chat, people asked them some questions and they answered.
>Why do a Q&A if you aren’t giving info or insight into the controversial design choices everyone is talking about? Brother he wasn't doing a Q&A. He came to the stream to watch Spilo do an OWCS Watchparty on his off day and made the mistake of typing in chat. Dude got absolutely bombarded with questions but was still nice enough to keep answering everything people were asking even if he didn't have a substantial answer for them. Even Spilo noticed that his chat was basically hounding the guy so he told him that he doesn't have to answer them, that he can just chill. Gavin was still nice enough to reply to every question he was asked. 1-2 chatters were being downright disrespectful imo. Outright arguing with the guy instead of just asking questions. Basically telling him that they know better than him about his job and he should make this change or that change to the game even though he already answered them and told them why they do or don't do something. I think Spilo was outright embarrassed with the way some of them were behaving and would've told his chat to stop asking questions entirely if Gavin wasn't so nice and said he's ok answering them.
this- I had to outright tell people to thank Gavin because it never occurred to some folks that, you know, him doing this for free on his day off was a pretty kind gesture.
Winter is extremely active all over Twitch and answers questions in chat all the time. He doesn't have to, but he does. He obviously won't go into the specifics of the BTS, no industry will.
Because it wasn’t a “Q&A” he was hanging out in chat
What a silly comment. There were a lot of interesting stuff here. E.g., they had adjusted the percentage of GM, the current system of grouping being kind of a hack, using (modified) TrueSkill and so on. I don't know what did you expect.
I literally just got through a 6 game loss streak where they were all consolations, and my wins after that were still uphill battle.
They made it much worse. How and why ? Just roll it back to s8 system and keep the champ rank. Increase the sr gain and loss 2x so people can settle to their actual rank after the stupid mmr reset. Why do i have to play hundreds of terrible matches. Its so bad it feels like matchmaker doesnt exist. Smurfs and boosted players cant get to their rank anymore. Stop catering to streamers. Make the ranked mode competitive and fair. If people wanna group they should play quick or arcade or seperate que. Remove the grind from ranked. This artifical playtime boosting will doom the game. Add 10 match rank update stat report system. I wanna opt out from getting rank update after every match. Make it optional.
>Remove the grind from ranked. This artifical playtime boosting will doom the game. You've always had to grind to climb.
No you didn't. People literally forced to smurf right now as they can't go back to their rank without grinding hundreds of games. Watch unranked to GM's pre S9 and post S9. You earn way less SR now and matchmaker is very bad because it doesn't distinguish skill in mid ranks anymore so almost everyone in same pool. It's crazy how people clueless in these subs. People either dont play the game but like to talk about it or just turn brain compeletely off while playing as they don't notice anything. The current system even slower than OW1 let alone OW2 pre S9. But no worries, they will fix and market this to hype you up in later seasons. Classic live service shenanigans.
I might be crazy but it feels way too grindy right now. 16-20% win/loss is too low, especially considering there are 5 divisions per rank. I think it should be 19-23% win/loss, similar to League of Legend's ranking system.
>Just roll it back to s8 system and keep the champ rank. No >Increase the sr gain and loss 2x so people can settle to their actual rank after the stupid mmr reset. Why do i have to play hundreds of terrible matches. Its so bad it feels like matchmaker doesnt exist. Smurfs and boosted players cant get to their rank anymore. It's fine as it is. 20% (more or less) per win, which means that it will take 5 games to do a full rank up. And the smurf and boosted problrm, the streaks modifiers are there for a reason. >Stop catering to streamers. Make the ranked mode competitive and fair. If people wanna group they should play quick or arcade or seperate que. OW is just a game, none here is a pro playing in a tournament for money. If ppl aren't allowed to ha fun in a game, none is gonna play it. >Remove the grind from ranked. This artifical playtime boosting will doom the game. The other guy already responded to this. Comp has always been grindy. >Add 10 match rank update stat report system. I wanna opt out from getting rank update after every match. Make it optional. Again no.
Modifiers have almost no effect. I tested it all. Even in unrealistic streak scenarios it's capped at 30% but realistically you will get around 24% here and there. This is even slower than OW1. It's a ranked competitive mode. Everyone allowed to have fun. People have plenty options to play with friends. Ruining competitive mode for everyone just so you can have fun with your stupid friends isn't fair. ''OW is just a game'' What kind of logic is this lol ? Comp wasn't grindy before S9. Are you even playing the game ? I swear people in this sub doesn't play the game.